1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 2: There's a whole lot of thinkers over the centuries who 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 2: thought about this. 4 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 3: The idea here is the damned in Hell are not 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 3: eternally in conscious existence. Annihilationists will just say death means 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 3: death and they cease to exist. 7 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 2: Maybe just kind of briefly tell us why you are 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 2: not an annihilation. 9 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 3: When I look at the whole of scripture, I don't 10 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 3: think the annihilationist view is the best way to take 11 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 3: the texts. From a personal standpoint, my heart kind of 12 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 3: goes out to Kirk Cameron in the situation he's in 13 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 3: where there's a lot of reactivity on the Internet that 14 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 3: shapes how these conversations play out. 15 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: Actor and evangelist Kirk Cameron has stirred up quite the 16 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: online controversy by asking if we have gotten the doctrine 17 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 2: of hell wrong. He's adopted a controversial view known as 18 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 2: annihilationism or conditionalism, which we will define and discuss. Cameron 19 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: has responded to the criticism and let's just say things 20 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: have gotten even more heated here to discuss with me 21 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 2: what a wise, measured and biblical response might look like 22 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 2: is doctor Gavin Ortland. Gavin, thanks for coming on. 23 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: Hey, looking forward to it. Thanks for having me, Sean. 24 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: I want to have you on for a number of reason, 25 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: but one being both of us were recently guests on 26 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 2: his podcast. We are friends of Kirk Cameron and care 27 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 2: about theological issues, but also how these conversations take place 28 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: just in the wider Internet and beyond. So we're going 29 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: to get into that. We're going to focus on really 30 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: three questions today. Is annihilationism a heretical view, is this 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: an indication of a slippery slope? And how can we 32 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: best respond going forward? But with that said, a few 33 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: preliminary issues, just kind of to catch people up to speed. 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: Some people might not be familiar with the term annihilationism 35 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: or conditionalism. Essentially, I explain it this way, that those 36 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: who do not believe in Jesus after death, at some point, 37 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 2: rather than living with eternal conscious torment, they will be 38 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: snuffed out or annihilated in some sense and sees to exist. Agreed, disagree, 39 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 2: expand on that definition in any way. 40 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: No, I think that's good. 41 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 3: I think the idea here is the damned in hell 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 3: are not eternally in conscious existence, but they know they'll 43 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: Annihilationists will just say death means death, and they cease 44 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 3: to exist. There's variation on the details of that, though, 45 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 3: so some annihilationists will still think there's a long duration 46 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 3: of conscious suffering prior to annihilation. And the only other 47 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: thing I might throw on the table is the label 48 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 3: conditional immortality is sometimes one that our annihilationist friends prefer, 49 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 3: and one of the ways sometimes they'll explain it is 50 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: to say that immortality belongs properly to God alone. And 51 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 3: so the way they might tease this out is not 52 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 3: even with the word annihilation, but just to say only 53 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: the righteous in Heaven are given immortality, and so they'll 54 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: make the appeal, you know, what would keep some a 55 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 3: damned soul alive in hell? 56 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: What would cause it to endure? 57 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 3: So that's another I'm just throwing that out as a 58 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 3: label and as a way they might explicate their view. 59 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: Very helpful clarification. I appreciate that now you have a 60 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: whole video on this you did before this controversy erupted, 61 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: and this conversation we're having right now is not going 62 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: to be a biblical point counterpoint or debate about it, 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 2: But maybe just kind of briefly tell us why you 64 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: are not an annihilationist. 65 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: Sure, the long answer of course, would be my video. 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: The summary here will be that while I think and 67 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 3: as I try to carefully consider this idea, I think 68 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 3: there are some theological appeals that have force in its favor, 69 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 3: and some biblical texts that can be interpreted in an 70 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: annihilationist way when I look at the whole picture, especially 71 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: the whole of scripture. So when I'm approaching a topic 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 3: like this, I'm not looking to my own wisdom because 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 3: I don't know what God is going to do, So 74 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 3: I have to lean on divine revelation and say, what 75 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: is God revealed of what will be the ultimate fate 76 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 3: of those who are cast away into the outer darkness? 77 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 3: And when I look at the whole of scripture, I 78 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 3: don't think the annihilationist view is the best way to 79 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 3: take the texts. And in my video on this, I 80 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: put a lot of emphasis on Revelation twenty in Revelation fourteen. 81 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 3: These are two texts where it seems to me that 82 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 3: the idea of torment is explicit. I think that is 83 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 3: explicit in Revelation twenty ten, and then in Revelation fourteen 84 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: the language of no rest day or night. But I 85 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 3: wouldn't say those are the only two texts. There are 86 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 3: other texts that I think are suggestive that the fire 87 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 3: of Hell is not just to destroy and extinguish life. 88 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: Another would be Mark nine forty seven to forty nine, 89 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: where Jesus says, and boy, I just want to acknowledge 90 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 3: talking about this topic is painful and sad, and so 91 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 3: here I am talking about fire and so forth, and 92 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: we want to acknowledge this is a difficult doctrine. Let's 93 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 3: let the I think it's designed to kind of shatter 94 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: our hearts in a way, and so let's allow it 95 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: to have that effect upon us and cause us to 96 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: grieve and be sobered at the reality of evil and 97 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 3: God's justice. 98 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: But Jesus says. 99 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 3: Mark nine forty nine, everyone will be salted with fire. 100 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 3: This doesn't sound so a lot of these earlier texts 101 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 3: before you get to revelation seems suggestive that there's an 102 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 3: experience going on in Hell, and I just find that 103 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 3: a tough passage to interpret in an annihilationist framework. So 104 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 3: the full case for this is in my video. But 105 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 3: what I'm just trying to lay out here is the 106 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 3: best interpretation of the Bible as a whole seems to 107 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 3: me to point toward Yeah, there is an ongoing experience 108 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: for the damned in hell. 109 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 2: And as far as you understand, this is what can 110 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: be called the tradition or the classic view of Hell 111 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 2: across even like Orthodox and Protestant and Catholic views. And 112 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: so there may be some annihilationist type positions held in 113 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: the past and in the somewhat present, people like F. F. 114 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: Bruce and John Stott, but these are very much minority voices. 115 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 2: This is what I've heard. I haven't done a deep 116 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: dive on it. 117 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: Is that your understanding, I would probably say minority voices, 118 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 3: but not very much minority voices. 119 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: So in other words, I do. 120 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 3: Think actually the early Church, the Patristic era, first five 121 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: hundred years or so of church history roughly, is a 122 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: little more diverse. 123 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: Once you get after Augustine. 124 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: I think you get ect or eternal conscious torment as 125 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 3: pretty much the backbone or the mainstream view. 126 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: But in the early Church it does look more scattershot 127 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: to me. 128 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 3: You've got explicit affirmations of annihilationism from Christians like Arnobius, 129 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 3: and then you have a lot of Christians who are 130 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 3: a little bit underdetermined in their language. It's debated a 131 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 3: little bit how to read them, but they seem more 132 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: pushing it toward an annihilationist view in the way they 133 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 3: speak of immortality and the way they speak of death 134 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: with respect to the final state. So I would think 135 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 3: of Irenaeus in that category, for example. So I'm not 136 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: trying to remove all the ambiguities from the interpretation of 137 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: some of these figures, but I would say I would 138 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: say annihilationism is a minority report in the tradition, but 139 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 3: it is present, especially in the early Church, so far 140 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: as I can see. 141 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: This is an important distinction because when you take issues 142 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: like the current in the past fifty years redefinition of marriage, 143 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: there was not any debate whatsoever in the history of 144 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: the Church about this until modern times. There are no 145 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 2: voices arguing that we should change the definition of marriage 146 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: to be non gendered. When it comes to annihilationism, this 147 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: is not a new debate. This debate has existed in 148 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: the Church in various ways throughout its history. Now it 149 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: feels new, and between you and I, I didn't have 150 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: on my Bengal card this year that Kirk Cameron was 151 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: to video in favor of annihilationism. I think I was 152 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: about as surprised as anybody, but it feels new to 153 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,679 Speaker 2: us in this moment, but there's precedent in the church 154 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: wrestling with this question going way back. Now, with that said, 155 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 2: part of what stirred this in his response video, I 156 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: think Kirk framed for everybody why he ended up really 157 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 2: what started this conversation for him, and it was a 158 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: conversation with his son about the fate of non Christians, 159 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: the fate of those who are damned. And he said, basically, 160 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: you know if he asks right, opening in only the 161 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: way that like somebody who's good on camera can draw 162 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 2: you in with drama, like he's so good painting the picture. 163 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: He's like, what would you do to the audience if 164 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: your son or daughter came to you and asked you 165 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 2: what you believe the Bible says and will non Christians 166 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: experience eternal conscience torment? He framed it that way. So 167 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: I'm really curious. I'm going to give my two cents 168 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: in a second, but how would you respond if one 169 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: of your own kids came to you and asked you 170 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: that question? 171 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 3: It depends upon which child and which age, because I 172 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,559 Speaker 3: have five kids ages three to twelve, and the truth 173 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 3: of scripture would not change from one child to another, 174 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: but the language I would use and the way I 175 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 3: would interface with them would be different for the. 176 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: Three year old, the five year old, the twelve year old, etc. 177 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 3: I think we can be I just think we want 178 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: to be sensitive to the age dynamics there in terms 179 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 3: of how we unfold a biblical view. Now, I would 180 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 3: teach them about the debate, Okay, I would talk. I 181 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 3: don't want them to go through their whole life and 182 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: never learn about this discussion and then suddenly hear about 183 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 3: it later on. So I'd want to talk them through 184 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: where Christians are disagreeing on these topics, and then I 185 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 3: would just invite them to study the scripture with me. 186 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 3: I actually do have a lot of theological conversations like 187 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 3: this with my kids, especially around the bedtime routine as 188 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 3: I'm putting them to bed and we talk theology. Sometimes 189 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 3: they're trying to prolong bedtime by exactly. 190 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: But I'll still go there and we'll talk. 191 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: And so one thing I've found helpful is to invite 192 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: them into the study of scripture and try to model 193 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 3: for them. Hey, dad doesn't have all the answers, but 194 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 3: let's study the scripture and here's what I'm doing. I'm 195 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 3: looking to what God has revealed about this, and then 196 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 3: what I'm trying to do is model this sense of 197 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 3: discipleship in our theology. That to be a theologian doesn't 198 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: mean I'm sort of dictating the shots based on my 199 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 3: intuitions and my feeling. But I'm looking to the scripture 200 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 3: and I'm seeking to follow and submit to what God 201 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 3: has revealed best I can. I want to model that 202 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 3: to my kids, and then we talk through the arguments, 203 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 3: and I'll try to, of course, shepherd them along that 204 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 3: process as we work through text by text. 205 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: I love that. 206 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 2: I think that's a great model. What you're doing for 207 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 2: your family. We can do in the larger body of 208 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 2: Christ and the Church family. But we'll come back to that. 209 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 2: For me, one thing I would do is, and again 210 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 2: it does depend upon the age. My kids are a 211 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: little older thirteen, eighteen twenty one. But the first thing 212 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: I would not do is show any fear. I wouldn't 213 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: show any disgust. I wouldn't show any anger. I would 214 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 2: not show that I'm threatened by this. In fact, if anything, 215 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: I'd try to show that I love that my kids 216 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: are asking theological biblical questions I would invite it from 217 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: my kids. One of the things we see from kids 218 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: leaving the faith is not questions and doubts, but when 219 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 2: they have unexpressed questions and doubt. So creating a culture 220 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 2: in our immediate families. And I would argue the larger church, 221 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: where we're not threatened by questions and we invite questions, 222 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: I think can help limit the deconstruction slash deconversion story 223 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 2: we've heard so frequently from people who have questions that 224 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: were really shut down. Then I would ask back. One 225 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: thing my kids will learn is I often ask when 226 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: I'm asked a question, I ask a question back. So 227 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 2: I would say, well, that's a really interesting question. I 228 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: will tell you what I think, But why do you 229 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 2: ask that question? I want to know the story behind 230 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: why you know? Again, a six year old is going 231 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: to be different than a twelve year old versus a 232 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 2: twenty one year old. Why is that question bothering you 233 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 2: right now? Is it a debate you saw online? Are 234 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: you troubled by loved ones? Is it emotional? Is an electual? 235 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: Like what's driving this? I want the story beneath the story. 236 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 2: And then i'd probably third say tell me what your 237 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 2: view is again, I'll give you my two cents, but 238 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 2: if you had to articulate what you think about this, 239 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 2: what you say, and then finally I'd say, let's go 240 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 2: to the Bible, let's have this conversation, and then we 241 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 2: would jump into the text. That's how I would navigate this. 242 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: And like you, I've had many of these conversations with 243 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: my kids. And one thing that's been lost here is 244 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 2: that I haven't heard many people say good for Kirk 245 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: Cameron for having the kind of relationship with his son 246 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 2: that as his son is older, he wants to come 247 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: with him and ask him questions, he wants to discuss 248 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 2: theology with him. Kirk has clearly done something right in 249 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: his family to have that kind of dialogue, and to me, 250 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: that's vital and lost amidst some of the craziness of 251 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: how people have responded. Now that said, we're not going 252 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: to do so much a deep dive on this, but 253 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: i'd love your take on three questions, and I'm gonna 254 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: give my two cents. Is this question this issue of 255 00:13:54,679 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: conditionalism annihilationism? Is it a heretical view? What's your take, Kevin? 256 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 3: Before I answer that, I just want to say one 257 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 3: adding on your answer to this last question helped me 258 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: think this through even a little more fully because I 259 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 3: love what you're saying. Of this non fear based response, 260 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 3: I found this to be so helpful. Sometimes Christians we 261 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 3: feel on our heels when a question comes up, and 262 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 3: I think this idea of calm curiosity to draw out 263 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 3: the question, and then I just the one thing I 264 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: wanted to say is I believe Christianity is intellectually robust 265 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: and it has answers to these difficult questions, and the 266 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 3: doctrine of hell is very difficult, but there are strong 267 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 3: defenses for why this is a rational thing to believe. 268 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 3: One of the embasies in scripture is the justice of God. 269 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: Hell is not an arbitrary torture chamber. Hell is God's 270 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 3: just response to unrepentant evil. And the reason it is 271 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 3: so terrible is because God is so good. If God 272 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: is the light, hell is the darkness. And so the 273 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: reason there's a hell is because of the glory of 274 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 3: God and the possibility of being banished from it. I 275 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 3: just want to So that's the other thing with my 276 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 3: kids is I want to shepherd them toward the truth 277 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 3: of the Gospel with a non fear based response, commending 278 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 3: the truth of Christ, but without a sense of panic 279 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 3: or fear. That's just something that was in my heart 280 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 3: there as you. 281 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: Were a love responding well. 282 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 3: So well said, now to your question about heresy, I'll 283 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 3: lay out my thoughts here and welcome any pushback from you. 284 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: I would give three appeals for why I don't see 285 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 3: it as. 286 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: Heretical by heresy. 287 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 3: The way I use this term is as a first 288 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 3: rank issue that separates Christian orthodoxy from that which is 289 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 3: outside of Christianity. And we have to have some category 290 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 3: for that because Christianity is a definite, specific religion. It's 291 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 3: not just this amorphous entity that can be a shape shifter. 292 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: So there's boundaries about what Christianity is and isn't. But 293 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: of course the key here is out putting every doctrinal 294 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: disagreement on that fault line, because there's lots of in 295 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 3: house debates and even second and third rank. I find 296 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 3: Christians are often very black and white, all or nothing 297 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 3: in thinking about things. So it's either heresy or it's unimportant. 298 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: And I wrote a book Finding the Right Hills to 299 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: Die on trying to lay out a schema or a 300 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 3: spectrum of different rankings, because some doctrines can be very 301 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 3: important but not heretical. You can be a genuine believer 302 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: even if we say this really matters about who's right 303 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: who's wrong. But the three appeals I would give would 304 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: be scripture, church history, and then a pragmatic appeal, saym 305 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 3: each in one sentence. 306 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 1: Here. 307 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 3: Biblically, I think this is a legitimate issue of the 308 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 3: interpretation of scripture, not one side rejecting the authority of Scripture. Second, 309 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 3: church history wise, I think there's precedent for both sides 310 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 3: in the. 311 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: History of the church. We've mentioned that before. 312 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 3: And Third, pragmatically, this is not something that has that 313 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 3: requires division in terms of its practical consequence in church life. 314 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 3: It's not like church government where you kind of just 315 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 3: have to decide something one way or another just for 316 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 3: unity and the way the church is going. It's not 317 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 3: gonna be something that is as obviously showing up in 318 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 3: the actual day by day, Sunday by sunday worship of 319 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: a church. 320 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:27,280 Speaker 1: You know, it's a little bit more. 321 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 3: I don't want to say it's theoretical, but it's just 322 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: not as consequential at the street level. 323 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: And if I could say one more sentence on the 324 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: biblical biblical issue. 325 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,480 Speaker 3: There while some Christians will, especially if they're not familiar 326 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 3: with the discussion, say well, obviously it's not a legitimate 327 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 3: issue of interpreting the Bible. The Bible is so clear 328 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: about eternal punishment. I would love to encourage them to 329 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 3: wrestle with the best arguments from the other side to 330 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 3: understand this is more complicated, and to wrestle with versus 331 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: like Jude seven, which use is the language of eternal 332 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 3: punishment for a historical judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah and 333 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 3: says Sodom and Gomorra suffered the fire of eternal punishment. 334 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: So the language of eternal punishment can be used for 335 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 3: the consequence of a judgment, not necessarily the punishment itself ongoing. 336 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 3: And that's just one example the kind of issue we 337 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 3: need to be careful about. 338 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: That's great. I went back and listened to a number 339 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 2: of voices on this just to see where other people 340 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 2: were landing, people like Wes Huff, Greg Cocheal Calvinist scholar 341 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: James White, and none of them placed it in a 342 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 2: first tier issue that if somebody embraces annihilationism, they are 343 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 2: outside the fold of the faith. James White distinctly said, 344 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 2: I don't think Stott went to Hell or F F. Bruce, 345 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: and I agree with him, and so that it should 346 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: not be a first tier issue such as the trinity, 347 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: the deity of Jesus, this salvation by faith alone, that 348 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: Jesus was human and divine. Of course, it's not a 349 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 2: first tier issue on that level. James Watte also says 350 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: something really interesting, and this is my words, but I 351 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: think it's the point he was making. He says, there's 352 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: no other issue for which people hold the traditional view 353 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: so firmly without justification. In other words, people hold this 354 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 2: view so passionately and yet haven't really thought through and 355 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: wrestled with why they hold it. And some of this 356 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 2: might be we don't preach on Hell a ton, we 357 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: don't walk through these passages and make the case because 358 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: it's so widely held the standard view within the church, 359 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: so it's not explained. But I think about my own life, 360 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: Gavin and I have not done as much of a 361 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 2: deep dive on this, as I have some other issues 362 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 2: as well, and so I try to hold my level 363 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: of confidence for this based on the study that I've done, 364 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: and so I love your pushback to say we got 365 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 2: to go to the text. It's not a first tier issue. 366 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 2: This is something one of my colleagues, Eric Taunas, wrote 367 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 2: about in theology. He put a piece that's in ESV 368 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: study Bible, and there's like certain first tier core essentials 369 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 2: that if you compromise those, you were talking about a 370 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: different faith, not another denomination, literally a different faith. And 371 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 2: that's not what's at stake here when it comes to annihilation. 372 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 2: I viewed it not perfectly, but a little bit more 373 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 2: like debates over origin for example, so Biola. We hold 374 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 2: to ect eternal conscious torment at Talbot specifically, but we 375 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 2: don't think people who are annihilationists are necessarily heretics. We 376 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: just disagree with that and don't hold that it's a 377 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,399 Speaker 2: part of our doctrinal commitment. Well, the same as too 378 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 2: with creation. We do not teach or accept evolutionary creation 379 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: within Talbot School of theology. We're not convinced biblically or scientifically, 380 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: but we don't think that people who embrace that are 381 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: necessarily heretics. Outside of the fold, the key issue at 382 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 2: stake is will God judge are the unborn damned? That's 383 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: kind of at stake with the issue of annihilationism, although 384 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 2: the details of how he does so are important. When 385 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: it comes to creation, the core issue is is God 386 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: the creator? The secondary question, which is important is how 387 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 2: did God create? Now by saying that, does that make 388 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 2: annihilationism therefore not that significant? And I think both you 389 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 2: and I would say no, time out a lot matters. 390 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 2: It's important, like you said, for the character of God, 391 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: how we under stand the scriptures, And honestly, I would argue. 392 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 2: I was talking with an atheist recently who was like, 393 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 2: I don't fear death at all because I didn't exist 394 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: before I came along and had no suffering, and so 395 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: I won't exist afterwards. And I thought, well, that's interesting. 396 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: Could you make the same kind of argument against annihilationism. 397 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: I don't fear God or as judgment as much because 398 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 2: I didn't exist before. 399 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: Now. 400 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 2: Of course there's responses to that, but my only point 401 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 2: is to agree with you. It's not an essential doctrine 402 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 2: that divides whether you're following Jesus or not, But that 403 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 2: doesn't make it unimportant and not worthy of thinking about anything. 404 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 2: You agree disagree challenge about that, I'd love to hear. 405 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: Feel free to disagree. 406 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 3: No, I think we're both saying this isn't a first 407 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 3: strank issue, and we and you know, from a personal standpoint, 408 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 3: my heart kind of goes out to Kirk Cameron in 409 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 3: the situation he's in, where there's a lot of reactivity 410 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,400 Speaker 3: on the Internet that shapes how these conversations play out, 411 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 3: where frankly, I don't think now I will say, I 412 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: think a lot of the responses are saying, you know, 413 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 3: Kirk is still our brother, but here's. 414 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 1: Why we disagree. 415 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 3: So you do see that a lot, but there's also 416 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,120 Speaker 3: a lot of charging of heresy, and even beyond that, 417 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 3: I would say, just a kind of reactivity that doesn't 418 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 3: seem to practice. 419 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: In my response video, I called it intellectual. 420 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 3: Hospitality, which is one way of trying to get this idea, 421 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 3: of really courting an idea, listening, welcoming the idea, and 422 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 3: listening to the best arguments and then responding thoughtfully. I think, 423 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 3: and this is true of all sides, in all directions 424 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 3: and so many issues. The Internet increases an impulsive reaction, 425 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: and it sometimes even rewards impulsive reactions. And one of 426 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 3: my biggest concerns in this conversation is that we practice 427 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 3: charity and thoughtfulness in how we conduct disagreements as followers 428 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 3: of Christ. That is not soft, that is not compromise, 429 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 3: That is a matter of following the character of Christ. 430 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 3: To be good listeners James says, to be slow to 431 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 3: speak and quick to listen. The internet really has incentives 432 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: against that, and so I just think in this conversation, 433 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 3: the fact that it's not a first rank issue means 434 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 3: we're talking as fellow Christians that we're going to be 435 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 3: in heaven together, and therefore there needs to be charity 436 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 3: in our hearts with the people on the other side, 437 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: and charity means really listening to their argument. And I'm 438 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 3: concerned sometimes on this issue there's not enough careful listening 439 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 3: to the exegetical appeals that are being made in the 440 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 3: theological arguments as well. 441 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: I totally agree. Now there's a reason why I didn't 442 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: do an initial response fitty to this, and one reason 443 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 2: is I'm not the response guy. I'm not always two 444 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,959 Speaker 2: in response videos. But second, I want to think about it, 445 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 2: I want to see the conversation. It's okay. Viewers and 446 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 2: listeners just sometimes say, you know what, I need to 447 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: think on this and need to get some advice on this. 448 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: I need to brew on this. There's a whole lot 449 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: of wisdom in pausing and not just react quickly. We'll 450 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: come back to some of that, but I'm really curious 451 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: if you think this is an indication of a slippery slope. 452 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 2: This is less about Kirk Cameron in particular, but if 453 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: somebody adopts annihilationism, should there be concern of a slippery slope? 454 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 3: This would be an area where I think it'd be 455 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 3: wise to have exactly that careful listening what you described 456 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 3: relting to your children, of drawing out you tell me 457 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 3: where this question comes from, let me hear more. I 458 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 3: think those kinds of questions would be necessary before we 459 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 3: could have any idea in any particular case whether something 460 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 3: is a slippery slope. So, in other words, I would 461 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 3: say not necessarily. I think it can be if someone 462 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 3: is saying if we understand their reasoning, and they're basically saying, well, 463 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 3: I kind of admit the Bible teaches this, but I 464 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 3: just am uncomfortable with that and it doesn't seem right 465 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 3: to me. 466 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: That is more concerning. 467 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 3: But in other cases, I think there are our legitimate 468 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 3: brothers and sisters in Christ who are wrestling with the 469 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 3: text of scripture. And because I'm not God, I'm not 470 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 3: going to judge their motives. But from everything I can tell, 471 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 3: they are sincere in their efforts to follow the scripture. 472 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 3: That's my honest opinion. And it's thinking me a while 473 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: of studying this issue to come to really appreciate how 474 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 3: they're looking at some of these texts. I have some 475 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 3: great annihilation ast friends and I'm listening to them and 476 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 3: I'm asking them, tell me more of how do you 477 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 3: read Revelation twenty? Tell me about this? And I'm trying 478 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 3: to and as I listen to them, I think they're 479 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 3: being good faith. 480 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 1: I don't think. 481 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 3: There's an effort to throw off the authority of the Bible. 482 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 3: I think this is a legitimate exegetical disagreement, and therefore 483 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 3: I don't think this is necessarily a slippery slope in 484 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 3: the way that it is when we start to reject 485 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 3: the authority of scripture. 486 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: The way you that so, the way you word it 487 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: is exactly where I would put. It's not necessarily an 488 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: indication of a slippery slope. It could be. There's often 489 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 2: stories of people that I know who have deconstructed and 490 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: deconverted their faith and started by questioning a traditional view 491 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 2: of hell. That was one of the open doors that 492 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: led to it. So it can be. But is it 493 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: necessarily the answers, No, it wasn't for Stott, it's not 494 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 2: for other annihilationist friends of mine as well. So I 495 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 2: think we can err on the side of going ah 496 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 2: slivery slope rejecting the Bible. This is going to completely 497 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 2: follow this trajectory of deconstruction. Well, not necessarily, but I 498 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 2: think also we ought to have our ears perked and 499 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: just say, what's the story behind this, what's motivating this? 500 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: Either biblically or emotionally or practically, Let's get to the 501 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 2: story behind the story. And in some sense, to me, 502 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: more than anything else, it's just a reminder to always 503 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,160 Speaker 2: be biblically vigilant, always assess everything that's said. We see 504 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 2: this in the scriptures over and over again. Make sure 505 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 2: our teaching is sound, make sure the Bible is our authority. 506 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: And so I'm certainly not going to accuse kirk Camera 507 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: to being on a slippery slope. I would not say 508 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: that for a number of reasons. But I do think 509 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 2: we should always be theologically vigilant. Go back to the 510 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 2: text and this is a reminder of the importance to 511 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: do that for all of us. My last question for 512 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 2: you is moving forward, What do you think we can 513 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 2: best do? What do we learn from this? How do 514 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: we best move forward on this topic and others in 515 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: the church? And inevitably, this isn't the last time hell 516 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: is going to come up, and it's certainly not the 517 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 2: last time another controversial doctrine will come up. 518 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 3: This is one of the main concerns on my heart 519 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 3: in relation to this episode, and something I addressed in 520 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 3: my video response, and that is I think we would 521 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 3: do well to give a lot of thought to how 522 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: our discourse is taking place in the body of Christ, 523 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: especially through the influence of the Internet and even more 524 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 3: specifically through social media. And I won't use it. I 525 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 3: won't try to label this or use exact words that 526 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 3: could narrow it down too much. But I'll just say 527 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 3: something seems unhealthy about much Christian discourse on the Internet. 528 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 3: And it's not just because if I were to say, well, 529 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 3: it's the reactivity or it's the lack of charity that 530 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 3: would limit it too much. There's a lot of things involved, 531 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 3: and I don't even understand them all. I just know 532 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 3: that the culture we are creating in the way we 533 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 3: disagree with one another seems to me to fall short 534 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 3: of what the New Testament calls us toward. In so 535 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 3: many cases, there's some great counter examples. I'm so thankful 536 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 3: for your channel. There's other great Christian YouTubers, there's other 537 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: great Christians on social media who doing such great work. 538 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 3: So I'm not saying it's always this way, but there's 539 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 3: a lot of unhealthy discourse. And if we were to 540 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 3: go through the New Testament and look at all the 541 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 3: verses about how we are to talk to each other 542 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 3: in the body of Christ. I mean, there's one thing 543 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 3: that is absolutely crystal clear in the New Testament, and 544 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 3: that Christians are to show love to other Christians and 545 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 3: to all people as well. But there's this particular kind 546 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 3: of love we have for those for whom Jesus shed 547 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 3: his blood, and I would just love to encourage us 548 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 3: to think about what does that look like when we 549 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 3: have a disagreement. How do we show love of its disagreement. 550 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: That's not compromise, that's not softness. That's part of how 551 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 3: we bear testimony to the truth of the Gospel. What 552 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: if there's somebody out there watching this and they're really 553 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 3: not sure what they believe, and they're really wrestling with this, 554 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: but they see us talking to each other in a 555 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 3: way that they say, Wow, that feels like a healthy 556 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 3: way of disagreeing. That feels like genuine love without any 557 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 3: slackening of conviction. But nonetheless, the presence of love and 558 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 3: respect in our discourse, that itself is a part of 559 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 3: how I think we bear testimony to the truth of 560 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 3: the Gospel. So I see that as a first order 561 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 3: issue that we show love for others, and so, of 562 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 3: course we'll fall short and not do that perfectly. But 563 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 3: I would just to your question of how where do 564 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 3: we go forward? I would love to see more careful 565 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 3: engagement with the arguments continued, wrestling with the issue continued. 566 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 3: I'm not trying to shut down disagreement, continued arguments for 567 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 3: the truth, but more attention to love in discourse, and 568 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 3: more attention to the overall culture we're shaping and the 569 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 3: way we talk to each other. Because the Internet is 570 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 3: a very complicated thing and it's affecting us in ways 571 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 3: we need to pay very careful attention to. 572 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 2: I love it, really, really well said, I agree with everything, 573 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: and I love you said, the way we respond is 574 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: a first order issue because they will know us by 575 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 2: our love, and of course love means speaking truth boldly, 576 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 2: and sometimes it means having a prophetic voice calling out 577 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: heresy boldly. But this is clearly not the time, given 578 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 2: what we've talked about and others have as well. I'd 579 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: say a few things. I just tell people. I say, 580 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: don't be afraid of questions. A professor, and I'm I 581 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 2: try to teach my students and my kids how to think. 582 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 2: I think sometimes we're afraid of questions because of our 583 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 2: own insecurities, and I think that's sometimes controversies like this 584 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 2: reveal what lack of theological depth that we have, because 585 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: we tend to be more fear based and threatened when 586 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: we don't know what we believe and why we believe it. 587 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 2: So don't be afraid of questions, invite questions in make 588 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: scripture our guide when it's all said and done, not emotions. 589 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 2: And this is a whole cyber conversation we could have. 590 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: But part of what I think the appeal of annihilationism 591 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 2: is is the horror of eternal conscious torment and just 592 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 2: thinking about our loved ones there is it gives me 593 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: chills great cocoal at standar Reason this week, He's like 594 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: on his commentary, was like, I don't like the doctrine 595 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 2: of hell, and I agree with that one hundred percent. 596 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: I don't like it. It may be uncomfortable, I don't 597 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 2: prefer it. But am I gonna fit the scriptures into 598 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: what I prefer? Or am I gonna shift my emotions 599 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 2: to what the scriptures teach? And I'm preaching to myself 600 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: more than anybody else here, But that would be my 601 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 2: encouragement moving forward. Make scripture our guide? And the question 602 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 2: is what did Jesus teach? He's the only one who 603 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 2: was sinless who had clarity about the world and God 604 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 2: and the scriptures. What did he teach? So don't be 605 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 2: afraid of questions. Make scripture our guide. Forth, slow down 606 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 2: and act, don't react, give it some time, process it. 607 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: Last thing I would say, and yeah, but I want 608 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: you to comment on this, I would say, I think 609 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 2: annihilationists carry a certain level of burden of proof here. 610 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 2: If I don't, if I haven't studied a certain doctrine, 611 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to say, you know what, probably if the 612 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 2: church has had large unanimity on this, there's a whole 613 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: lot of thinkers over the centuries who thought about this. 614 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 2: I better have good reasons to reject. And I know 615 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 2: this is your criteria of church history. I would say 616 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 2: there's a certain level of burden of proof on annihilationists. 617 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 2: I don't want to raise it so high that it's impossible. 618 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: But if we're going to go with a small minority 619 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 2: of scholars, they better make the case pretty solid to me, 620 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:24,360 Speaker 2: agree or disagree with that. 621 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,280 Speaker 3: I agree, and one or two sentences on that to say, 622 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 3: as I think about this, I'm looking at the scripture. 623 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 3: I'm aware I'm going to give an account to the 624 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 3: Lord for my teaching one day men, and so I 625 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,240 Speaker 3: don't think I could stand before the Lord and say, 626 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 3: there's Revelation twenty, there's Revelation fourteen. But I taught this 627 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 3: this for me, that's where it boils down. I couldn't 628 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 3: do that. And so that's where this sense of submitting 629 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 3: to the scriptures but also the scriptures as interpreted by 630 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 3: the majority of the tradition, seems like the wisest and 631 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 3: most godly response that I can take to the issue. 632 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,480 Speaker 3: And like you say, I don't like hell either. It 633 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 3: really troubles me. But I'm trying to submit to the truth, 634 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: and I think that's a rational thing to do because 635 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 3: we believe the scriptures are trustworthy. Our Lord is trustworthy. 636 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 3: He knows more than us. So yeah, I think that 637 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 3: sense of submission is something we need to think through. 638 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 3: I'm not saying a particular annihilation. This is not also 639 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 3: doing that, But I'm just saying that is how the 640 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 3: tradition impresses itself upon my conscience. 641 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: I love it. 642 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 2: I'd ask one more question, people watching this, how many 643 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: of you before you reacted took the time to watch 644 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 2: his whole first video and his response video versus just 645 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 2: reacting from a TikTok video or an Instagram reel or 646 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: a comment somebody else made. If not, I think that 647 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,479 Speaker 2: might be reason to repent and reflect and go back. 648 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: Now you might have been right in your reaction. I 649 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: don't know, but let's just move away from reacting so 650 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: quickly without the context and giving a brother like Kirk 651 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 2: the benefit of the doubt initially, whereas, of course, always 652 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 2: taking those questions back to scripture. So, Kirk, if you 653 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: happen to watch this, love you, Grateful for you and 654 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 2: your voice. I know you're bringing on scholars to talk 655 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 2: about this. I will be watching very interested to see 656 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 2: the kind of conversations that you host, and hope you'll 657 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 2: bring on the best from all sides of this conversation 658 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: and walk people through how to follow it. I've never 659 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 2: done a deep dive on hell on this channel. I 660 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 2: had emails going back just a few weeks ago about 661 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,240 Speaker 2: doing an in depth conversation in twenty twenty six between 662 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 2: annihilationist and some who supports eternal conscious torment. So that's 663 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 2: coming on my channel. But for now, Kirk, we will 664 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,360 Speaker 2: be eagerly waiting to see who you bring on and hopefully, 665 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 2: and I trust that you will, you can help us 666 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: think this through biblically and land well. Check out Gavin 667 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 2: orleans book Hills to Die On is excellent. His video 668 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 2: if you want a critique of annihilationism just to start, 669 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 2: His video on his YouTube channel is also excellent in 670 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 2: that regard. Let me know here if these kind of 671 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 2: response type videos, either myself or with somebody else are 672 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 2: helpful and light of an issue like this that drops 673 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 2: culturally takes a good amount of time to think through 674 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 2: and respond. I want to do it if it's helpful 675 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 2: to you, so please let me know. Make sure you 676 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 2: hit subscribe. We've got a lot of other topics coming 677 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: up you won't want to miss, that's for sure, including 678 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 2: things like reincarnation, a deep dive critique on this and 679 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 2: if you thought of by studying apologetics, we would love 680 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 2: to have you at Tavischool Theology. There's information below. Gavin. 681 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 2: Appreciate you and this conversation. We'll do it again soon. 682 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: Thanks Sean. Great to be with you. 683 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,400 Speaker 2: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that 684 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning 685 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet. It makes a huge difference 686 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 2: in helping us reach and equip more people and build community. 687 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 2: And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. 688 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to 689 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 2: you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where 690 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 2: we have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual information, 691 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would 692 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and 693 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today and we will see you 694 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.