1 00:00:02,690 --> 00:00:06,540 Speaker 1: Life Audio. I believe a lot of us experience God 2 00:00:06,780 --> 00:00:12,610 Speaker 1: as still face. That our greatest fear that God really 3 00:00:12,930 --> 00:00:16,389 Speaker 1: isn't present with us is that God is not present 4 00:00:16,410 --> 00:00:19,750 Speaker 1: with us. We just wonder if we're coming to God 5 00:00:19,970 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: and somehow we're not knowing the formula. We're not knowing 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,860 Speaker 1: which words to say. Maybe we forgot to worship before 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,260 Speaker 1: we came. We have all of these rules that we 8 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 1: put in place before we come to God, believing that 9 00:00:34,420 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: he's going to give us still face if we don't 10 00:00:37,330 --> 00:00:38,650 Speaker 1: come correctly. 11 00:00:42,100 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith Over Fear podcast, where we discuss 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,540 Speaker 2: powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear, big and small. 13 00:00:48,860 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: I'm Jennifer Slattery, and I know the angst and the 14 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,870 Speaker 2: frustration that comes when we feel disconnected from Christ. I 15 00:00:55,910 --> 00:00:59,530 Speaker 2: understand the confusion and the anxiety this can create and 16 00:00:59,550 --> 00:01:01,910 Speaker 2: all the questions like, why does everyone else seem to 17 00:01:01,950 --> 00:01:04,369 Speaker 2: have such a close relationship with the Lord? What does 18 00:01:04,390 --> 00:01:08,179 Speaker 2: that even look like? And maybe the the most confusing. 19 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: I hear people talk about how God is always happy 20 00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: to be with me and wants to connect more deeply 21 00:01:12,860 --> 00:01:16,030 Speaker 2: with me, but that doesn't feel like my experience, which 22 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,250 Speaker 2: can evoke the fear, I have to clean myself up 23 00:01:19,530 --> 00:01:22,230 Speaker 2: before I come to God. I'm too much. I need 24 00:01:22,270 --> 00:01:26,670 Speaker 2: to manage my needs, minimize myself before I come to God. 25 00:01:26,730 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: And often there's a painful life fueling those fears. I'm 26 00:01:30,140 --> 00:01:33,900 Speaker 2: too needy and God has a limited attention span. But 27 00:01:33,940 --> 00:01:37,780 Speaker 2: here's the truth I pray today's conversation reveals. The Lord 28 00:01:38,220 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: actively pursues us always and forever and is constantly helping 29 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,980 Speaker 2: us build a safe, secure attachment, or you might call 30 00:01:45,060 --> 00:01:48,050 Speaker 2: it bond with him, our father. And to help me 31 00:01:48,310 --> 00:01:53,170 Speaker 2: dig into this issue, I've invited author, speaker, and Anglican priest, 32 00:01:53,390 --> 00:01:57,350 Speaker 2: Reverend Summer Joy Gross, on to discuss the profound insight 33 00:01:57,410 --> 00:02:01,590 Speaker 2: she addresses in her book, Emmanuel promise designed to help 34 00:02:01,650 --> 00:02:06,610 Speaker 2: us experience Christ on an ever deepening level. Reverend Summer, 35 00:02:06,650 --> 00:02:08,050 Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us. 36 00:02:08,650 --> 00:02:12,010 Speaker 1: Jennifer, it is such a joy and I have such 37 00:02:12,030 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: a tender heart towards you and your community as someone 38 00:02:16,139 --> 00:02:22,860 Speaker 1: who has suffered with anxiety as well and recognizes that 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:24,700 Speaker 1: the Lord just draws near. 40 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: Amen. 41 00:02:25,580 --> 00:02:30,690 Speaker 1: That there is an invitation, even in that anxiety, to 42 00:02:30,770 --> 00:02:34,130 Speaker 1: draw near to him, to bring all our messy places 43 00:02:34,330 --> 00:02:37,380 Speaker 1: and know that he comes with compassion. 44 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: I love that. Well, like I said, Reverend Summer Joy 45 00:02:41,060 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: Gross is an Anglican priest, retreat leader, and spiritual director 46 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,429 Speaker 2: who believes that our stories can be transformed by God's 47 00:02:48,490 --> 00:02:52,270 Speaker 2: invitation to make his love our home base. I love that. 48 00:02:52,690 --> 00:02:55,549 Speaker 2: She is Associate Faculty of Spiritual Formation and the Art 49 00:02:55,570 --> 00:02:59,970 Speaker 2: of Spiritual Direction at the Healing Care Ministry Spiritual Direction School. 50 00:03:00,450 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 2: She's also the host of the Presence podcast and lives 51 00:03:04,460 --> 00:03:06,460 Speaker 2: in North Georgia. I would like to know more of 52 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: your story when you first recognized that there was maybe 53 00:03:10,220 --> 00:03:12,920 Speaker 2: some kind of internal disconnect going on. 54 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:14,500 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I. 55 00:03:15,180 --> 00:03:20,230 Speaker 1: Have always struggled with bonding or people pleasing. So that 56 00:03:20,350 --> 00:03:24,929 Speaker 1: has been at the heart of a lot of my anxiety, 57 00:03:24,950 --> 00:03:29,270 Speaker 1: a fear of rejection. And this is something that was 58 00:03:29,430 --> 00:03:31,549 Speaker 1: really interesting to me. So I'm going to tell a 59 00:03:31,570 --> 00:03:34,130 Speaker 1: story that I don't think I've ever told before to 60 00:03:34,650 --> 00:03:39,450 Speaker 1: anyone else except my sister. But this is what came 61 00:03:39,670 --> 00:03:43,490 Speaker 1: up for me about a year ago. My mom and 62 00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:48,590 Speaker 1: I were teaching at a Christian Medical and Dental Society meeting, 63 00:03:49,490 --> 00:03:52,910 Speaker 1: and we were attending some other things because we have 64 00:03:52,940 --> 00:03:55,100 Speaker 1: a lot of friends that are a part of it. 65 00:03:55,460 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: My dad used to take us on the coolest short-term 66 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:06,090 Speaker 1: mission trips with CMDA. So this is what happened. There 67 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: was a panel that was about marriage with doctors, surgeons. anesthesiologists, 68 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,940 Speaker 1: brain surgeons, and their wives talking about their families. And 69 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: the women started talking about how they had to create 70 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:30,229 Speaker 1: an atmosphere for their husbands that was quiet and restful 71 00:04:30,630 --> 00:04:35,650 Speaker 1: because their husbands were always exhausted, that they were always 72 00:04:36,150 --> 00:04:40,470 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the life or death decisions that they were 73 00:04:40,529 --> 00:04:44,730 Speaker 1: having to make at all times and just the heaviness 74 00:04:44,910 --> 00:04:48,150 Speaker 1: of their work. And I'm just so grateful for them. 75 00:04:48,250 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: So I want you to hear that. I'm so grateful 76 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 1: that I believe my dad is one of the most 77 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,530 Speaker 1: people with the most integrity and and wisdom and ability 78 00:04:59,610 --> 00:05:05,289 Speaker 1: to make hard, fast decisions that are smart and healing 79 00:05:05,430 --> 00:05:09,500 Speaker 1: for people. Also, what was being talked about was really 80 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: interesting in that it almost felt like The women were 81 00:05:13,860 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: describing a home of an alcoholic, like everyone having to 82 00:05:20,660 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: tiptoe around dad because he was so extremely exhausted. And 83 00:05:28,020 --> 00:05:33,140 Speaker 1: so there was an attuning to both adults rather than 84 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: an attuning to the children and the needs of the 85 00:05:37,220 --> 00:05:41,620 Speaker 1: children themselves. So all that to say, so many of 86 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,720 Speaker 1: my needs were met growing up. But I could feel 87 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,339 Speaker 1: that in my body, that sense of, are my mom 88 00:05:49,380 --> 00:05:53,380 Speaker 1: and dad going to be frustrated with me? I have 89 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,770 Speaker 1: to manage the atmosphere in the room. I have to 90 00:05:56,810 --> 00:06:01,500 Speaker 1: be careful. about the level of messiness and neediness that 91 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,390 Speaker 1: I'm bringing to a space. And all of a sudden 92 00:06:04,410 --> 00:06:08,390 Speaker 1: there was a huge aha moment because I was born 93 00:06:08,410 --> 00:06:12,789 Speaker 1: at the very beginning of medical school and then college. 94 00:06:13,230 --> 00:06:18,150 Speaker 1: lots of residency. So my first 10 years were all 95 00:06:18,350 --> 00:06:25,300 Speaker 1: about dad's education. So this was just really interesting information 96 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: and helped me to understand a little bit more of 97 00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: my nervous system, as well as why I felt like 98 00:06:32,940 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: I had to tiptoe around my dad, who I know 99 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:39,660 Speaker 1: I get to spend time with all the time, is 100 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:47,190 Speaker 1: a kind and loving and just incredibly exuberant person. But 101 00:06:47,610 --> 00:06:52,909 Speaker 1: his day today was exhausting. So this is what helped 102 00:06:52,970 --> 00:06:56,700 Speaker 1: me to understand because trust is And a feeling of 103 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:02,950 Speaker 1: peacefulness happens because there's an attuning to the child where 104 00:07:03,230 --> 00:07:07,390 Speaker 1: the parent is able to recognize the inner needs of 105 00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:11,790 Speaker 1: a child and attune to them. And the child feels 106 00:07:11,910 --> 00:07:16,870 Speaker 1: comfortable crying out for whatever their needs are and knowing 107 00:07:16,950 --> 00:07:23,830 Speaker 1: that that parent desires and delights in meeting that child's needs. So, 108 00:07:24,450 --> 00:07:27,450 Speaker 1: I had a nervous system that was always on edge. 109 00:07:27,470 --> 00:07:31,870 Speaker 1: And part of that could be physical reasons. Who knows 110 00:07:32,050 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: what all is there as I continue to explore this 111 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,140 Speaker 1: story that I've been given. But it's just really helpful 112 00:07:40,260 --> 00:07:45,380 Speaker 1: to know that there can even be good reasons for 113 00:07:45,620 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: this attachment to not work. 114 00:07:48,250 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 3: Not be a secure one. 115 00:07:50,390 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: Wow. I have so many questions that came up as 116 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 2: you were talking about that one phrase really resonated or 117 00:07:56,140 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: really stuck in my brain when you said what came 118 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,310 Speaker 2: up for me and why I thought about that is 119 00:08:00,430 --> 00:08:02,850 Speaker 2: it just made me think of the journey that the 120 00:08:02,890 --> 00:08:04,790 Speaker 2: Lord has brought you on. So what are you talking 121 00:08:04,870 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 2: about when you're talking about this attunement attachment? Yeah, for sure. 122 00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:15,420 Speaker 1: So attachment theory has been around since the 40s and 50s. 123 00:08:15,740 --> 00:08:19,540 Speaker 1: The first person who looked into it, this is so 124 00:08:19,620 --> 00:08:23,660 Speaker 1: interesting to me, lived kind of a Downton Abbey existence 125 00:08:23,860 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: in that he only had an hour a day with 126 00:08:27,020 --> 00:08:32,569 Speaker 1: his mother and an hour a week. So there was, 127 00:08:33,390 --> 00:08:37,290 Speaker 1: he lived with the nanny and until he was four 128 00:08:37,330 --> 00:08:41,179 Speaker 1: years old, he had his own nanny. And then once 129 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:45,300 Speaker 1: he turned four, she was sent away. So imagine what 130 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: happened there. And then he was sent over to the 131 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,370 Speaker 1: full house. nursery in which there was a very, a 132 00:08:54,730 --> 00:08:59,010 Speaker 1: nanny like a sergeant. So he lost that sense of 133 00:08:59,030 --> 00:09:03,910 Speaker 1: a loving attachment figure. She literally was sent away. And 134 00:09:04,429 --> 00:09:07,370 Speaker 1: then when he was six years old, he was sent 135 00:09:07,470 --> 00:09:10,010 Speaker 1: away to school. So one of the things that was 136 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:14,699 Speaker 1: interesting for him as he studied was learning about all 137 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:19,620 Speaker 1: the children that were sent away during the London Blitz. 138 00:09:20,210 --> 00:09:23,050 Speaker 1: and how they were sent away from their parents, and 139 00:09:23,130 --> 00:09:26,890 Speaker 1: what happened to their attachment. Then he went over to 140 00:09:26,910 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: a juvenile delinquent center and started studying these children's experience 141 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 1: with their parents, what kind of bond they had with 142 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,900 Speaker 1: their parents. And he started recognizing that the children in 143 00:09:40,940 --> 00:09:47,830 Speaker 1: that delinquent center had really difficult attachments with their parents. Finally, 144 00:09:47,850 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 1: he was the one who helped make a difference in 145 00:09:52,340 --> 00:09:56,689 Speaker 1: allowing parents to come to the hospital with their children 146 00:09:56,750 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: when they had illnesses or their tonsils out. or that 147 00:10:00,460 --> 00:10:05,390 Speaker 1: type of thing, recognizing that that attachment relationship was essential 148 00:10:05,690 --> 00:10:08,469 Speaker 1: for that child to heal. So he was doing a 149 00:10:08,530 --> 00:10:12,329 Speaker 1: lot of study on that. His student was doing a 150 00:10:12,530 --> 00:10:16,870 Speaker 1: lot of study on what she called the strange experiment, 151 00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:22,020 Speaker 1: which just means that a child was in a room 152 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:26,940 Speaker 1: playing and the caregiver would leave the room and someone 153 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,239 Speaker 1: would be taking notes to see what would happen with 154 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: that child as they recognized that that parent had left 155 00:10:33,730 --> 00:10:37,420 Speaker 1: the room. And then that parent was invited back into 156 00:10:37,460 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: the room and that was studied as well. So there 157 00:10:41,420 --> 00:10:47,569 Speaker 1: were a couple different insecure attachment stories that was found 158 00:10:47,710 --> 00:10:53,110 Speaker 1: during that strange experiment. A secure child would cry when 159 00:10:53,150 --> 00:10:55,850 Speaker 1: the parent left the room. And then when the parent 160 00:10:55,890 --> 00:11:00,050 Speaker 1: came back into the room, the child would come back 161 00:11:00,110 --> 00:11:03,060 Speaker 1: to home base to a sense that they were safe 162 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,060 Speaker 1: because their caregiver. 163 00:11:04,580 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 3: Was in the room. 164 00:11:05,820 --> 00:11:11,250 Speaker 1: An insecure, anxious child would cling to that parent when 165 00:11:11,290 --> 00:11:13,790 Speaker 1: they came back into the room. They would cry when 166 00:11:13,830 --> 00:11:16,230 Speaker 1: the parent left. And when they came back, there was 167 00:11:16,290 --> 00:11:20,740 Speaker 1: a real clinginess, a fear of abandonment. And then the 168 00:11:20,929 --> 00:11:25,339 Speaker 1: avoidant child has a sense that they're on their own, 169 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,900 Speaker 1: that there's no one who's attuned to their inner life. 170 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:34,239 Speaker 1: So that when the parent left, the child might recognize 171 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 1: that the parent has left, but they'll keep playing because 172 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:41,100 Speaker 1: they really believe that it's all up to them. The 173 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,370 Speaker 1: parent comes back in and there's no change. And then 174 00:11:45,610 --> 00:11:51,490 Speaker 1: fourth is the disorganized child who has both a sense 175 00:11:51,830 --> 00:11:55,329 Speaker 1: of neediness from the parent of course they do because 176 00:11:55,450 --> 00:11:58,390 Speaker 1: where are you going to get food or love or 177 00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:04,090 Speaker 1: connection except from that relationship but also there is a 178 00:12:04,390 --> 00:12:08,970 Speaker 1: fear of that person and that child has a sense 179 00:12:09,090 --> 00:12:11,970 Speaker 1: that that person could harm them or could. 180 00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:14,150 Speaker 3: Act in a bizarre way like a lot. 181 00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:18,500 Speaker 1: Of times that's children of parents who have mental illnesses 182 00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:21,540 Speaker 1: that they don't know how they're going to react so 183 00:12:21,580 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: there's that sense of I don't know if I'm safe 184 00:12:24,740 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: with this person. And so their attachment style will include 185 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,540 Speaker 1: both insecure anxious and insecure avoidant and will kind of 186 00:12:34,660 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: pendulum back and forth according to what makes that child 187 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,580 Speaker 1: feel safe in the moment. So those are the different 188 00:12:41,660 --> 00:12:46,579 Speaker 1: attachment styles, secure, insecure, avoidant, and disorganized. 189 00:12:47,140 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: So what is, when you use the word attuned, what 190 00:12:50,020 --> 00:12:51,850 Speaker 2: do you mean by that? 191 00:12:52,410 --> 00:12:57,590 Speaker 1: Attunement has to do with knowing that there is someone 192 00:12:57,710 --> 00:13:03,010 Speaker 1: who is attentive, responsive, and engaged towards you. That's the 193 00:13:03,070 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: language of Dr. Sue Johnson that has taken all of 194 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:12,179 Speaker 1: this attachment language and uses it for marriage as well, 195 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:18,290 Speaker 1: recognizing that there's That beginning relationship created the neural pathways 196 00:13:18,350 --> 00:13:22,970 Speaker 1: for every relationship for that person going forward, even their 197 00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:27,590 Speaker 1: relationship with their spouse. And so that sense is that 198 00:13:27,809 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: is someone attentive, responsive, and engaged towards me is a 199 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: question that people will have through all of their life 200 00:13:36,940 --> 00:13:39,929 Speaker 1: to see whether or not they can count on or 201 00:13:40,070 --> 00:13:43,820 Speaker 1: they can have a sense of expectation that that person 202 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:47,729 Speaker 1: will be there for them, will be able to connect 203 00:13:47,830 --> 00:13:50,070 Speaker 1: with them. on a deeper level. 204 00:13:50,270 --> 00:13:53,130 Speaker 2: So you're talking about the emotional, like they know what's 205 00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:57,710 Speaker 2: going on with their child emotionally and they respond appropriately 206 00:13:57,970 --> 00:14:00,770 Speaker 2: to the child's emotions. I want to, for some of 207 00:14:00,830 --> 00:14:03,290 Speaker 2: our listeners, they may be like, you know, I don't 208 00:14:03,370 --> 00:14:07,330 Speaker 2: understand why I'm people pleasing. I don't understand why conflict reacts. 209 00:14:07,630 --> 00:14:09,650 Speaker 2: I react this way. I don't understand why I'm struggling 210 00:14:09,690 --> 00:14:11,870 Speaker 2: in my marriage. I don't understand why I'm struggling with God. 211 00:14:12,010 --> 00:14:16,670 Speaker 2: They may not see their childhood as having these missing things. 212 00:14:17,330 --> 00:14:19,910 Speaker 2: I'm thinking in particular, it might seem like, yeah, my 213 00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:22,930 Speaker 2: dad didn't hit me. He didn't yell at me. But 214 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: was he there when I was needing emotional support? Like, 215 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: that's what I'm hearing you say. 216 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:35,100 Speaker 1: Was he fully present and tuned in? It's almost like 217 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:40,570 Speaker 1: the images of a tuning fork. And two people tuning 218 00:14:40,750 --> 00:14:45,430 Speaker 1: to each other of recognizing what is this a hopeful 219 00:14:45,490 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: sound or is this a sad sound? What kind of 220 00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:54,500 Speaker 1: emotional frequency is that person having right now? And that 221 00:14:54,620 --> 00:14:58,990 Speaker 1: parent being tuned in to that emotional frequency. 222 00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I can already tell I wish I'm going 223 00:15:01,190 --> 00:15:03,190 Speaker 2: to wish I had like six hours with you. So 224 00:15:03,230 --> 00:15:05,930 Speaker 2: I'm going to encourage listeners, obviously get the book, but 225 00:15:05,970 --> 00:15:08,530 Speaker 2: also go to your podcast because I'm sure you go 226 00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:12,070 Speaker 2: into really detail to a lot of this. But so 227 00:15:12,270 --> 00:15:14,570 Speaker 2: let's shift a bit. You talked about how this affects 228 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:17,710 Speaker 2: all of our other relationships. And we might not always 229 00:15:17,790 --> 00:15:21,430 Speaker 2: recognize how it like consciously how we're bringing that into 230 00:15:21,470 --> 00:15:26,050 Speaker 2: our relationship with God. So how does that impact when 231 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 2: we're talking about do I feel connected with God? Am 232 00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: I even orienting towards him when I'm overwhelmed or when 233 00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: I mess up or all those things? How can those 234 00:15:36,950 --> 00:15:38,990 Speaker 2: early experiences impact that? 235 00:15:39,230 --> 00:15:43,650 Speaker 1: So there is a study that Dr. Ed Tronick at 236 00:15:43,750 --> 00:15:47,950 Speaker 1: Harvard did called the Still Face Study. And you guys 237 00:15:48,050 --> 00:15:51,530 Speaker 1: have got to get on YouTube and listen and watch 238 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,100 Speaker 1: Still Face because there is going to be a huge 239 00:15:55,220 --> 00:15:58,460 Speaker 1: light bulb that goes off for you. If you look 240 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:02,220 Speaker 1: at the one with Ed Tronick, and Dr. Sue Johnson, 241 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: that will be an even bigger light bulb. This is 242 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,460 Speaker 1: the impairment that was done. There's a little girl in 243 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,870 Speaker 1: a high chair and she's clipped in and she and 244 00:16:12,950 --> 00:16:16,730 Speaker 1: her mom are having this engaging time. The little girl points, 245 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: and smiles and the mom coos and smiles at her 246 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,570 Speaker 1: and looks to where she's pointing. And there's all this engaging, 247 00:16:24,690 --> 00:16:29,070 Speaker 1: all this tuning in to the inner life of that child. 248 00:16:29,150 --> 00:16:32,260 Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, Dr. Atronic invites her 249 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: to turn away to put a still face, completely neutral face, 250 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: and then turn back to that child. And that child 251 00:16:43,940 --> 00:16:48,970 Speaker 1: goes from, I know who this is, to, oh my goodness, 252 00:16:49,420 --> 00:16:51,550 Speaker 1: I don't know how to get my needs met here. 253 00:16:51,890 --> 00:16:56,330 Speaker 1: I'm not communicating at all. She's not communicating with me anymore. 254 00:16:56,670 --> 00:17:00,890 Speaker 1: And so there's a complete falling apart of that little 255 00:17:00,950 --> 00:17:01,870 Speaker 1: girl within 90 seconds. 256 00:17:04,050 --> 00:17:04,590 Speaker 3: And then Dr. 257 00:17:04,590 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: Sue Johnson shows us side by side a husband and 258 00:17:09,100 --> 00:17:11,950 Speaker 1: wife who do the same thing. a husband who was 259 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,460 Speaker 1: told to do a still face with his wife, to 260 00:17:15,540 --> 00:17:18,139 Speaker 1: connect with her, and then all of a sudden to 261 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: come to her with a completely neutral face. 262 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 3: And she's like, who are you? 263 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,300 Speaker 1: What's going on? Why won't you answer me? But we 264 00:17:26,619 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: all know that feeling in our gut when we're trying 265 00:17:30,619 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: to connect with someone and all of a sudden they're 266 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:39,100 Speaker 1: really not there. I believe a lot of us experience 267 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: God as still face. that our greatest fear that God 268 00:17:45,460 --> 00:17:51,300 Speaker 1: really isn't present with us is that we just wonder 269 00:17:51,619 --> 00:17:55,149 Speaker 1: if we're coming to God and somehow we're not knowing 270 00:17:55,210 --> 00:17:59,449 Speaker 1: the formula. We're not knowing which words to say. Maybe 271 00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:03,610 Speaker 1: we forgot to worship before we came. We have all 272 00:18:03,650 --> 00:18:06,650 Speaker 1: of these rules that we put in place before we 273 00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:09,330 Speaker 1: come to God, believing that he's going to give us 274 00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:12,780 Speaker 1: still face if we don't come correctly. 275 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that one. As I was reading your book, 276 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:19,580 Speaker 2: and really processing through it. I think sometimes it can 277 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 2: be subconscious. A lot of times, maybe 90% of the time, 278 00:18:23,290 --> 00:18:25,530 Speaker 2: it's subconscious. And I realized when you were getting to 279 00:18:25,570 --> 00:18:29,650 Speaker 2: the part where you were inviting the reader to experience 280 00:18:29,730 --> 00:18:33,350 Speaker 2: God's wanting to be with them. And I found myself 281 00:18:33,390 --> 00:18:35,590 Speaker 2: kind of trying to follow along with what you were 282 00:18:35,609 --> 00:18:38,570 Speaker 2: inviting us to do. But first, without even thinking about it, 283 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:40,970 Speaker 2: I went on this confession loop. I'm like, I had 284 00:18:41,030 --> 00:18:43,770 Speaker 2: to scan, what did I do today that I need 285 00:18:43,810 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 2: to confess for? What did I? And it just popped up. 286 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,260 Speaker 2: And I feel like that was the Holy Spirit, honestly, 287 00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 2: in that moment, showing me things that maybe go on 288 00:18:51,580 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: internally that I'm not aware of. But it was like 289 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:55,940 Speaker 2: I had kind of what you shared in your story 290 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: about having to have it all cleaned up. I wouldn't 291 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,220 Speaker 2: have told you that was my reality prior to reading 292 00:19:01,270 --> 00:19:03,869 Speaker 2: your book. I'm like, no, I know I'm forgiven and 293 00:19:03,890 --> 00:19:08,220 Speaker 2: there's Christ. But there was that element. that I felt 294 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: like he showed me like, well, really, do you really 295 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: feel that way? Or do you feel like you have 296 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,390 Speaker 2: to fix all of these things before we can have 297 00:19:15,430 --> 00:19:19,090 Speaker 2: this deeper? It was the deeper connection that was leading 298 00:19:19,290 --> 00:19:22,850 Speaker 2: to the loop. Like I could connect on a surface 299 00:19:22,970 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 2: level for so, and maybe not even just surface level. 300 00:19:26,460 --> 00:19:30,460 Speaker 2: Cause I think he's gracious, but. recognizing when he brings 301 00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: those things to our awareness. And there's something you said, 302 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,139 Speaker 2: I really, well, we got to take a break to 303 00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:39,090 Speaker 2: listen to our sponsors. When we come back, I want 304 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:42,110 Speaker 2: to hear about kind of taking the pressure off because 305 00:19:42,150 --> 00:19:46,810 Speaker 2: I hear from so many listeners and readers, this sense 306 00:19:46,830 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: of condemnation. What am I doing wrong? What am I, 307 00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 2: And so we're going to take a break. When we 308 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 2: come back, I want to hear more. I'm going to 309 00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,020 Speaker 2: ask you to say something that was just profound for 310 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:08,150 Speaker 2: me from your book. So we'll be back. In your book, 311 00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:11,730 Speaker 2: you said something that I think takes away the shame 312 00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: and pressure for every reader, I hope, really highlights that 313 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: one phrase. You wrote, and you were speaking in the 314 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 2: parental child relationship, but you wrote that it is always 315 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 2: the caregiver's responsibility to build the secure attachment. And that 316 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:30,340 Speaker 2: makes sense when we're thinking of ourselves as little kids, 317 00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:32,980 Speaker 2: but I don't know if we always transfer that to 318 00:20:33,030 --> 00:20:36,419 Speaker 2: our relationship with God. And instead... I feel like sometimes 319 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 2: we think it's our responsibility to build that connection. So 320 00:20:40,980 --> 00:20:43,210 Speaker 2: can you talk to me? I mean, obviously there's things 321 00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:46,970 Speaker 2: we do, but was I understanding what you were saying correctly? 322 00:20:47,010 --> 00:20:48,210 Speaker 2: Am I tracking correctly? 323 00:20:48,670 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is the adult's work to create the bond. 324 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,350 Speaker 1: A child is in receiving mode. So I think if 325 00:20:58,510 --> 00:21:03,869 Speaker 1: we see ourselves, if we can shift our way of 326 00:21:04,030 --> 00:21:09,540 Speaker 1: thinking about our relationship with God instead of one of pursuit. 327 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if you read like the God chasers 328 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,780 Speaker 1: or anything like that. I did when I was growing up. 329 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 1: And so that was part of what had to shift 330 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: in my mind. Instead of believing that I have to 331 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,300 Speaker 1: chase God to find him, to recognize God, he is 332 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: standing at the road of my life, looking for me 333 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:35,619 Speaker 1: to come home. He's doing the work. coming and he's 334 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: excited for me to come home. He's the one looking 335 00:21:39,020 --> 00:21:41,620 Speaker 1: for the one when the 99. 336 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 3: Are still at home. 337 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,109 Speaker 1: He's out searching. And so that was a huge aha 338 00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: moment for me. 339 00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:50,810 Speaker 3: We see that in Ezekiel. 340 00:21:50,210 --> 00:21:54,550 Speaker 1: About God making the heart tender, a heart of flesh. 341 00:21:54,850 --> 00:21:59,070 Speaker 1: And when you listen to that language, you're hearing, oh, 342 00:21:59,170 --> 00:22:01,669 Speaker 1: this is a work God is doing. This is the 343 00:22:01,710 --> 00:22:04,949 Speaker 1: work God is doing. He's doing this work within us. 344 00:22:05,310 --> 00:22:10,770 Speaker 1: The beauty of the cross is that he chose to 345 00:22:10,830 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: do the hard work. He chose to place himself in suffering, 346 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,340 Speaker 1: in pain, in order to go the distance across the 347 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:26,250 Speaker 1: bridge to us and to give his blood in order 348 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: to cover over all of our sins. So the question is, 349 00:22:32,220 --> 00:22:36,450 Speaker 1: how do we make a shift from believing it's all 350 00:22:36,750 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: our work to recognizing it's his work that he's doing 351 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: within us through the Holy Spirit? And we're just positioning ourselves. 352 00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:49,290 Speaker 1: to receive from him. 353 00:22:49,609 --> 00:22:53,230 Speaker 2: I love that language, positioning ourselves. And I want to 354 00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:56,109 Speaker 2: go back to, you shared a story at the beginning 355 00:22:56,290 --> 00:22:57,690 Speaker 2: that you said you just got a year ago. I 356 00:22:57,730 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: don't know when you wrote this book. I don't know 357 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 2: when you had that conversation with your mom where you're like, hey, 358 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 2: I think I've got insecure attachment. I think sometimes when 359 00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:09,780 Speaker 2: we read scripture or we hear people's stories and we're like, 360 00:23:10,380 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 2: do X, Y, Z, and then boom, this happens. Talk 361 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:20,350 Speaker 2: to me about the journey, the slow journey of, I mean, 362 00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:23,350 Speaker 2: because of the way I picture it, we've not only 363 00:23:23,869 --> 00:23:27,150 Speaker 2: got to kind of undo the false messages that have 364 00:23:27,190 --> 00:23:31,250 Speaker 2: been ingrained in our brain and heal the wounds that 365 00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:36,830 Speaker 2: occurred and develop this safety sense of trust and faith 366 00:23:37,130 --> 00:23:40,070 Speaker 2: in Christ. And I think sometimes we have this unrealistic 367 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:44,530 Speaker 2: expectation that we're going to go from zero to completely 368 00:23:44,670 --> 00:23:48,609 Speaker 2: in love and attached and secure. So what was the 369 00:23:48,730 --> 00:23:53,659 Speaker 2: time and the, not just the time, Summer, but the 370 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:57,060 Speaker 2: frustration and the angst? Like, did you do wrestling with 371 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: him when you're in that phase? And what did that 372 00:23:59,100 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: look like? 373 00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:05,110 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I had the privilege of doing a ton 374 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:10,570 Speaker 1: of healing care groups. with our congregation and a few 375 00:24:10,730 --> 00:24:15,419 Speaker 1: other women who led with me. And during that time, 376 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,859 Speaker 1: it was like the Lord was saying, you know, this 377 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,020 Speaker 1: year we're going to work with this particular message, or 378 00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 1: this relationship that you need to do work with. And 379 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,330 Speaker 1: it was interesting how not just myself, but other people 380 00:24:30,410 --> 00:24:33,410 Speaker 1: within the group, there would be a resonance of like, 381 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:40,179 Speaker 1: everyone was doing work around their mother. Everyone was doing 382 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:47,020 Speaker 1: work around a huge childhood pain. So It was just 383 00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:50,420 Speaker 1: really interesting how the Lord taught me that it was 384 00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:52,090 Speaker 1: okay that this goes slow. 385 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,710 Speaker 3: Yes. 386 00:24:54,109 --> 00:25:01,510 Speaker 1: A beautiful poem by Teilhard de Chardin that starts, Above all, 387 00:25:01,650 --> 00:25:04,710 Speaker 1: trust in the slow work of God. We are quite 388 00:25:04,830 --> 00:25:09,980 Speaker 1: naturally impatient in everything to reach the end without delay. 389 00:25:10,260 --> 00:25:16,220 Speaker 1: We should like to skip the intermediate stages. We are impatient. 390 00:25:16,780 --> 00:25:20,740 Speaker 1: on being on the way to something unknown, something new. 391 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:23,740 Speaker 1: And yet it is a law of all progress that 392 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,179 Speaker 1: it is made by passing through some stages of instability 393 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: and that it may take a very long time. So 394 00:25:32,220 --> 00:25:36,350 Speaker 1: accept the gift, the benefit of believing his hand is 395 00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,389 Speaker 1: leading you and accept the anxiety of feeling yourself in 396 00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:43,570 Speaker 1: suspense and incomplete. 397 00:25:44,290 --> 00:25:47,540 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's big because you said we don't 398 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,740 Speaker 2: like to feel incomplete. We don't like suspense. We don't 399 00:25:51,790 --> 00:25:55,430 Speaker 2: like ambiguity. Do you think ever when we're in this 400 00:25:56,070 --> 00:25:59,310 Speaker 2: phase of like, we're just beginning to recognize. So like 401 00:25:59,350 --> 00:26:02,030 Speaker 2: for me, there was a season where I'm like, huh, 402 00:26:02,270 --> 00:26:04,950 Speaker 2: I have been taught, not intentionally, but I have been 403 00:26:05,030 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: taught not to hear God, not to seek him relationally. 404 00:26:08,020 --> 00:26:12,010 Speaker 2: I have been taught to do X and do Y, 405 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,540 Speaker 2: know the truth, live the truth. Everything will be great. 406 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: When you don't do that, then you're bad. And So 407 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,640 Speaker 2: there's that first realization where you're like, okay, I know 408 00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,790 Speaker 2: there's a gap here. I don't yet know the solution. 409 00:26:24,930 --> 00:26:28,810 Speaker 2: And I'm not 100% sure that the solution will come 410 00:26:28,869 --> 00:26:32,900 Speaker 2: true for me. And I think when we're in that phase, 411 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 2: we can do one of two things. We can pull back. 412 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,540 Speaker 2: Because we're like, well, obviously there was something wrong with me. 413 00:26:37,540 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 2: I got to go back to my try harder, do better, 414 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 2: learn more. And because that's comfortable, maybe. Or we can 415 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,780 Speaker 2: push through. So what would you say to the person 416 00:26:46,820 --> 00:26:50,660 Speaker 2: who they're just starting to realize that, you know what, 417 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:55,140 Speaker 2: I want this connection with the Lord. I want a true, 418 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,949 Speaker 2: I mean, we talk about relationship with Christ. It's a relationship, 419 00:26:59,010 --> 00:27:03,410 Speaker 2: not a religion. Okay, well, relationship means interaction, right? There's 420 00:27:03,470 --> 00:27:06,780 Speaker 2: emotional connection. So what would you say to the person 421 00:27:06,820 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 2: who says, I'm in that ambiguous, ambiguous stage? It is 422 00:27:11,220 --> 00:27:13,260 Speaker 2: highly uncomfortable. I feel like I'm going to have a 423 00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:15,540 Speaker 2: panic attack. I don't know where I am with God. 424 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,020 Speaker 2: My sense of security, it was a false security maybe, 425 00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 2: but my false security is now gone and I haven't 426 00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:24,410 Speaker 2: yet attached securely. Yeah. 427 00:27:24,730 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 1: So in my experience, it happens when episodic encounter with 428 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: God at a time. As our cry meets his response, 429 00:27:35,140 --> 00:27:40,420 Speaker 1: or as we settle into the truth of a scripture, 430 00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:45,380 Speaker 1: we don't just hear it or know it or get 431 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,500 Speaker 1: the truth of it, but we allow it to hit 432 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,660 Speaker 1: as deeply as our nervous system. And often we use 433 00:27:52,869 --> 00:27:57,030 Speaker 1: the holy imaginations. We ask the Lord, please, would you 434 00:27:57,050 --> 00:28:01,090 Speaker 1: help me to get a picture of, say, instead of 435 00:28:01,109 --> 00:28:04,170 Speaker 1: this scripture, be still and know that I am God. 436 00:28:04,630 --> 00:28:07,030 Speaker 1: We ask the Lord, would you give me a picture 437 00:28:07,090 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: of you inviting me to rest with you? We settle 438 00:28:10,650 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: into that and we allow that to go as deep 439 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:14,900 Speaker 1: as our nervous system. 440 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,260 Speaker 3: And then we have someone else that we share it with. 441 00:28:18,740 --> 00:28:22,919 Speaker 1: Maybe we have a spiritual director or a Anamkara, a 442 00:28:23,020 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: soul friend, someone who can walk with us through this 443 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,170 Speaker 1: journey and maybe who's on that journey too. And so 444 00:28:30,250 --> 00:28:32,940 Speaker 1: we share what that image was. And so it goes 445 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,980 Speaker 1: a little bit deeper as we connect with someone else. 446 00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:40,020 Speaker 1: And as we share that particular story. Yeah. 447 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,620 Speaker 2: And I'm probably, I'm going to say too, and then 448 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,270 Speaker 2: we're going to need to take another break, but to 449 00:28:43,310 --> 00:28:45,390 Speaker 2: our listeners, if you don't have that, because I have 450 00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:48,990 Speaker 2: heard that from people and I think it's, it's, you know, 451 00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:51,910 Speaker 2: we're talking about attachment. It is hard to develop those 452 00:28:52,030 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: trusting relationships when we have insecure attachments. And again, We're 453 00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:59,750 Speaker 2: dealing with other people who are struggling as well relationally. 454 00:28:59,790 --> 00:29:01,510 Speaker 2: So it's just messy and it's going to be hard. 455 00:29:01,530 --> 00:29:03,410 Speaker 2: So I'm going to encourage you to our listeners to 456 00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:06,030 Speaker 2: be like, I don't have a soul friend. Pray. Ask 457 00:29:06,050 --> 00:29:08,630 Speaker 2: God to bring it. Recognize he might not bring somebody 458 00:29:08,670 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: to your door tomorrow. So just because he doesn't respond 459 00:29:12,380 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: right away doesn't mean he's not going to respond or 460 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,450 Speaker 2: he isn't at work. So we're going to take a break. 461 00:29:18,690 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 2: And then when we return, I would love if you 462 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: could close our conversation with what begins to change as 463 00:29:27,740 --> 00:29:30,100 Speaker 2: we grow in this area with the Lord. 464 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:37,990 Speaker 3: And we're back. So what happens? 465 00:29:41,150 --> 00:29:45,860 Speaker 2: Because honestly, Summer, I tend to be selfishly motivated. And 466 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: so there is a part of me that says, what's 467 00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:49,380 Speaker 2: in it for me? Yes, I want to connect with 468 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,260 Speaker 2: the Lord. And I want to, want to, I think 469 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,180 Speaker 2: you even mentioned that in your book. I want to 470 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: love the Lord. 471 00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:54,740 Speaker 3: Help me love you, Lord. 472 00:29:54,860 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: That's where I'm at 90% of the time, which I 473 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:01,010 Speaker 2: think to our listeners, it's okay. God knows we're children. 474 00:30:01,330 --> 00:30:04,290 Speaker 2: Like we can't hide that from him. But so from 475 00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:09,210 Speaker 2: a personal level, How does this help us experience more 476 00:30:09,230 --> 00:30:10,850 Speaker 2: of the thriving life Jesus promised? 477 00:30:11,250 --> 00:30:16,490 Speaker 1: Yeah, so one of the important people that can teach 478 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: us on our way with this is David in the Psalms. 479 00:30:21,070 --> 00:30:25,530 Speaker 1: And that he was excellent at sharing his inner life 480 00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:29,570 Speaker 1: with God, at pouring it all out, at knowing that 481 00:30:29,670 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: God cared about hearing his whininess, his jealousy, his frustration. 482 00:30:35,390 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: Like if we think about, I mean, the man has 483 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: all of the span of human emotion. 484 00:30:41,740 --> 00:30:42,300 Speaker 3: And rage. 485 00:30:42,420 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: Like he's like, kill my, destroy my enemies. 486 00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 3: Exactly. He had ruminating thoughts. 487 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: There's even thoughts of suicidal ideation in here. 488 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,890 Speaker 3: He allows all. 489 00:30:57,690 --> 00:31:01,270 Speaker 1: Of his emotions to come out towards God in lament 490 00:31:01,850 --> 00:31:05,930 Speaker 1: and enables the Lord to meet him in that place. 491 00:31:06,430 --> 00:31:09,820 Speaker 1: So the more that we do that, as well as 492 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,700 Speaker 1: allow the Lord through holy imagination to come enable us 493 00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:19,710 Speaker 1: to experience him. One of my very, very favorite spiritual 494 00:31:19,770 --> 00:31:24,830 Speaker 1: practices is entering into the stories of the gospel and 495 00:31:24,930 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: connecting with Jesus. I think people get a tiny view 496 00:31:30,420 --> 00:31:34,300 Speaker 1: of this by watching The Chosen, but I think there's 497 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: such a powerful gift of entering into the story and 498 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: Anne Halley, who is one of my mentors in all 499 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,340 Speaker 1: of this, she invites us to use the blessing of 500 00:31:47,420 --> 00:31:52,290 Speaker 1: the children to get in line, to come up to Jesus, 501 00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:56,190 Speaker 1: to watch other children be blessed, and then to get 502 00:31:56,250 --> 00:31:59,750 Speaker 1: in line ourselves in order to be blessed by Jesus 503 00:32:00,270 --> 00:32:07,070 Speaker 1: and experience his kindness, his attention, his face turned towards us. 504 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,940 Speaker 1: and his words over us in that moment. 505 00:32:11,420 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 3: And my word, we can do that every single day 506 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 3: for a while. 507 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,810 Speaker 1: As the Lord is doing something deep in you, I 508 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:26,340 Speaker 1: just invite you, stay there. Amen. Linger. Stay present to 509 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,860 Speaker 1: that word that the Lord is sending to you right 510 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,780 Speaker 1: now and allow it to be the road, the Holy 511 00:32:32,820 --> 00:32:36,260 Speaker 1: Spirit to say, nope, we're going to stay right here 512 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,340 Speaker 1: for a while. And so that you can rest here 513 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,719 Speaker 1: and truly receive it from me. Don't look for another word, 514 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,630 Speaker 1: another aha moment, or even allow it to kind of 515 00:32:48,750 --> 00:32:50,590 Speaker 1: come in and out of your ears. 516 00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:52,750 Speaker 3: Stay right there. 517 00:32:54,010 --> 00:32:58,190 Speaker 2: I want to actually expand on that when I was 518 00:32:58,310 --> 00:33:02,730 Speaker 2: first trying to practice listening prayer. And my spiritual mentor 519 00:33:02,770 --> 00:33:06,580 Speaker 2: has these elaborate, beautiful conversations with the Lord. And I 520 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: kept getting the same thing over and over and over. 521 00:33:09,140 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: I love you. 522 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,060 Speaker 2: I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you. 523 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:11,460 Speaker 1: I love you. 524 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:13,219 Speaker 2: I'll never leave you. I'll never forsake you. This went 525 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,180 Speaker 2: on for months. I'm talking daily for months. And I'm getting... frustrated. 526 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,820 Speaker 2: And I'm like, Lord, why do you keep telling me 527 00:33:19,860 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 2: the same thing? And I sensed him in my spirit saying, 528 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,070 Speaker 2: this is what you need to hear. And so to 529 00:33:26,220 --> 00:33:28,969 Speaker 2: piggyback on what you're saying to our listener, we can 530 00:33:28,990 --> 00:33:31,430 Speaker 2: get so stuck in our head. Why is God not 531 00:33:31,490 --> 00:33:34,430 Speaker 2: doing for me what he's doing for someone else? Why 532 00:33:34,470 --> 00:33:36,650 Speaker 2: am I not moving quicker? Why am I not getting 533 00:33:36,750 --> 00:33:40,810 Speaker 2: answers to this problem that I'm trying to present? And 534 00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:45,770 Speaker 2: I loved your emphasis on trusting him to lead us 535 00:33:46,230 --> 00:33:49,870 Speaker 2: exactly where we need. And I wonder, Summer, I would 536 00:33:49,890 --> 00:33:51,890 Speaker 2: love to hear your thoughts on this, but do you think, 537 00:33:52,290 --> 00:33:53,710 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it's going to take as long as 538 00:33:53,770 --> 00:33:57,209 Speaker 2: it's going to take, and I'm borrowing other people's phrases 539 00:33:57,250 --> 00:33:59,430 Speaker 2: from that, but do you think it might progress a 540 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,220 Speaker 2: little sooner if we're able to just relax and go 541 00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:05,340 Speaker 2: with the flow, if we don't get so stuck in 542 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,140 Speaker 2: our heads, wondering like, I should be farther along or 543 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 2: any of those things? 544 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you are exactly right that it's so 545 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: important to throw it back on God and to recognize 546 00:34:19,140 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: that like in Philippians, he who began a good work 547 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,969 Speaker 1: in me will carry it through to completion until the 548 00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:31,170 Speaker 1: day of Jesus Christ. So I can choose instead of 549 00:34:31,710 --> 00:34:36,810 Speaker 1: getting frustrated in my own inner life to recognize he's 550 00:34:36,870 --> 00:34:39,860 Speaker 1: doing the work. I can trust that he's doing the 551 00:34:39,940 --> 00:34:42,460 Speaker 1: work and I can keep holding it out to him 552 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,339 Speaker 1: and say, Lord, this is what I need. 553 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:46,910 Speaker 3: You have promised. 554 00:34:47,410 --> 00:34:49,930 Speaker 1: He who began a good work in me will carry 555 00:34:49,950 --> 00:34:55,049 Speaker 1: it through to completion. There's also a really interesting scripture. 556 00:34:55,070 --> 00:35:00,370 Speaker 1: I believe it is Isaiah 51, 14 that says, the 557 00:35:00,590 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: one who is in chains will soon be set free. 558 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: She will not die in her dungeon. nor will she 559 00:35:09,010 --> 00:35:13,589 Speaker 1: lack bread. Wow. If that is not a word of 560 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,930 Speaker 1: recognizing that the Lord is doing this work. And so 561 00:35:19,590 --> 00:35:22,009 Speaker 1: That's what I do. Even this morning as I was 562 00:35:22,110 --> 00:35:26,610 Speaker 1: walking my dog through the neighborhood and frustrated over a 563 00:35:27,850 --> 00:35:32,370 Speaker 1: messy experience that I can't see my way out of, 564 00:35:32,770 --> 00:35:35,570 Speaker 1: I was just holding it out to the Lord saying, 565 00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:38,950 Speaker 1: He who began a good work in me will carry 566 00:35:38,989 --> 00:35:42,370 Speaker 1: it through to completion until the day of Jesus Christ. 567 00:35:42,770 --> 00:35:46,290 Speaker 1: I place myself in your hands again that you are 568 00:35:46,350 --> 00:35:49,510 Speaker 1: doing this work and that you love me. I think 569 00:35:49,739 --> 00:35:54,770 Speaker 1: one of our main needs, Jennifer, is to believe. And 570 00:35:54,890 --> 00:35:59,470 Speaker 1: I'm not saying you have to know this truth, but 571 00:35:59,489 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: I am saying that delight and knowing God's desire for 572 00:36:04,580 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: us is so much more important than I ever realized 573 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: that it was. And that's been one of the aha 574 00:36:12,300 --> 00:36:17,969 Speaker 1: moments for me with this attachment work. There's a really interesting, 575 00:36:18,140 --> 00:36:21,990 Speaker 1: lovely book if you're a parent or a grandparent called 576 00:36:22,050 --> 00:36:26,810 Speaker 1: The Six Needs of Every Child. It's super practical in 577 00:36:26,910 --> 00:36:31,270 Speaker 1: recognizing how to attune to a child's needs. But one 578 00:36:31,310 --> 00:36:36,940 Speaker 1: of those six needs are delight. Isn't that interesting? And 579 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: it says a child will not attach to a caregiver 580 00:36:41,820 --> 00:36:45,790 Speaker 1: that they do not believe delights in them. So I 581 00:36:45,850 --> 00:36:49,460 Speaker 1: believe that that is one of our greatest needs is 582 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: to ask the Lord over time, Lord, will you show 583 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: me that you delighted me? 584 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:55,380 Speaker 2: Wow. 585 00:36:56,010 --> 00:36:57,530 Speaker 1: What will you show. 586 00:36:57,390 --> 00:37:01,790 Speaker 3: Me that you desire me as your child? 587 00:37:02,190 --> 00:37:02,410 Speaker 1: Yeah. 588 00:37:02,739 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 2: And I can hear, we don't have time. You got 589 00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:05,530 Speaker 2: to read the book, but I can just hear some 590 00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:07,569 Speaker 2: listeners like, well, what if I don't feel delightful? What 591 00:37:07,590 --> 00:37:09,430 Speaker 2: if I don't? And you talk about that in your book. 592 00:37:09,850 --> 00:37:11,930 Speaker 2: And so you're going to have to get the book. 593 00:37:12,070 --> 00:37:14,049 Speaker 2: It's really profound. I would actually encourage you to get 594 00:37:14,070 --> 00:37:16,569 Speaker 2: the book, get people around you. You can go through 595 00:37:16,610 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 2: it and take it slow. And, and yeah, Just recognize 596 00:37:21,989 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 2: that God is driving the bus. He's leading this. Summer, 597 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,779 Speaker 2: this has been a beautiful conversation. Thank you so much 598 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 2: for joining us. 599 00:37:29,540 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: It's such a privilege, Jennifer. And in the book, there's 600 00:37:33,420 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: a ton of videos that you can watch as well 601 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: that I can lead you through parts of this journey 602 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,379 Speaker 1: where you can position yourself for the Lord to to 603 00:37:44,460 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: speak to you and to receive from him. That was 604 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,509 Speaker 1: extremely important to me, that there would be ways that 605 00:37:52,590 --> 00:37:55,930 Speaker 1: people could do this work, that it wouldn't just be informational, 606 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,939 Speaker 1: but would be actually time in the presence of God. 607 00:38:00,469 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 2: I love that. 608 00:38:01,340 --> 00:38:01,730 Speaker 1: I love that. 609 00:38:02,150 --> 00:38:04,090 Speaker 2: To our listeners, I want to tell you a little 610 00:38:04,110 --> 00:38:08,070 Speaker 2: more about her book. So here's a little from the 611 00:38:08,090 --> 00:38:11,410 Speaker 2: back cover. God's face is always shining towards us. Our 612 00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:14,089 Speaker 2: God is not asleep nor indifferent, but we don't always 613 00:38:14,190 --> 00:38:18,450 Speaker 2: experience his nearness or the depth of how beloved we 614 00:38:18,489 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: truly are, especially if we've experienced neglect, abandonment, or emotional distance. 615 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 2: in our formative human relationships. Drawing from the deep well 616 00:38:27,940 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: of scripture, attachment theory, and her own personal story, Reverend 617 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:37,509 Speaker 2: Summer Joy Gross invites you to experience Emmanuel, God with 618 00:38:37,630 --> 00:38:41,950 Speaker 2: us as the one. whose love towards you is secure 619 00:38:42,430 --> 00:38:45,299 Speaker 2: and unchanging. So she teaches you how to use simple, 620 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 2: repeatable practices to awaken to God's nearness. And she mentioned 621 00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:51,980 Speaker 2: her videos. You can learn from those who've walked before. 622 00:38:52,060 --> 00:38:56,200 Speaker 2: She shares personal stories as well. And really just, it's 623 00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:01,330 Speaker 2: a very gentle invitation to wherever you're at now, just 624 00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:04,450 Speaker 2: to keep orienting your soul to God. And I wanna 625 00:39:04,489 --> 00:39:07,980 Speaker 2: close with this gentle encouragement. If you've spent years wondering 626 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,820 Speaker 2: why peace feels so elusive and God seems so distant, 627 00:39:12,410 --> 00:39:16,029 Speaker 2: The invitation isn't to try harder, to learn more. A 628 00:39:16,110 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: lot of us have tried that and it hasn't worked, 629 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,820 Speaker 2: but rather to consider that maybe Jesus is inviting you closer. 630 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,049 Speaker 2: One honest conversation, one fear that you entrust to him, 631 00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:29,529 Speaker 2: one moment of recognizing his presence at a time. And 632 00:39:29,770 --> 00:39:32,739 Speaker 2: we've already talked about it's a really slow journey, but 633 00:39:32,780 --> 00:39:36,660 Speaker 2: at least we're moving forward. So, and to our listeners, 634 00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: thank you for listening. If you haven't already done so, 635 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,180 Speaker 2: I encourage you to subscribe to this podcast, then you 636 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,410 Speaker 2: won't miss a single episode. And I invite you to 637 00:39:44,489 --> 00:39:47,629 Speaker 2: share today's conversation with those in your sphere who could 638 00:39:47,750 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 2: use the reminder that they aren't failing in faith. They're 639 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:56,720 Speaker 2: learning to live, to love, to engage differently, more deeply 640 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,510 Speaker 2: connected to the one who, as her book states, is always, 641 00:40:00,570 --> 00:40:04,129 Speaker 2: I love this phrase, is always turning his face towards us. 642 00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:07,410 Speaker 2: Until next time, may you live as one who truly 643 00:40:07,610 --> 00:40:08,469 Speaker 2: has been set free.