1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged, 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert, 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened, 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour. 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio, 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history, 18 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and 19 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more 20 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard, 23 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series, 24 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places, 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping 26 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. So 27 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: let's get started. Hey, everyone, welcome back to this episode 28 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian On Doctor James Spencer and I am 29 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: joined again by doctor Greg Quiggle, and we're going to 30 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: continue our series on the German Reformation, and today we're 31 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: really going to pivot to something that's a little bit 32 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: more about the tradition of Protestantism, and that is the 33 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: Reformation Souls as sometimes they're referred to, and so we're 34 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: going to talk about how these help us to frame 35 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: out what it means to be Protestant, regardless really of 36 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 1: what the nomination you're in, and why these are so 37 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: central and crucial to the Reformation, particularly as we looked 38 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: at the instability that was created by the Reformation and 39 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: the break from the Catholic Church in the last episode. 40 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: So Greg come back, talk to us a little bit 41 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: about what the souls are. Man. 42 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's I believe five of them. I I 43 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: prefer to frame it a slightly different way, if that's okay, Yeah, please. 44 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 2: I think there are three basic questions that are at 45 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 2: the core of what happens in the sixteenth century. 46 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: Okay. 47 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: Most Protestants think that the Reformation was about corruption, and 48 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 2: that's marginally true because the fact of the matter is 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: the Roman Church admits they were corrupted and fixed it themselves. 50 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: There is such a thing as a Catholic Reformation. The 51 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: Council of Trent deals with a lot of this stuff. Okay, 52 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: but I think what's really going on is there's three 53 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: basic theological questions that really the soul has come out of. 54 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: So let's let's frame it that way. 55 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: Great. 56 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:02,839 Speaker 2: The first question is what's church? And the sixty four 57 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: thousand dollars word for that is ecclesiology. You know, you 58 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: pay all this money so you can learn a vocabulary. 59 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: That's about all that is. So what is the church? 60 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: What is the church? And in sixteenth century Roman Catholic 61 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 2: thought and I'm using sixteenth century because they've changed some 62 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: and sixteenth century Protestants aren't the same either. In sixteenth 63 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: century Roman Catholic thought, the church is a pyramid. Okay, 64 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: it's it's it's the old model that you always saw 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: at a business, you know, it's the here's the CEO, 66 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: and then it goes down. And so what is the church. 67 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: The church is this structure and at the top is 68 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: the pope, and then you got the cardinal, and then 69 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: you've got the archbishop and the bishop, and and down 70 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 2: at the bottom you got the low priest. So it 71 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: is basically the clergy that are in a hierarchy. And 72 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: so this is religion as spectator sport. That's the way 73 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 2: I like to think about it. You and I've been 74 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: to lots of medieval cathedrals, and we've all seen how 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: they have tried to modernize them. But when you walk in, 76 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: the first thing you see is way, way, way way 77 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: up front, and at a higher level is the altar 78 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: because that's where the juice is. Okay, And in the 79 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: sixteenth century there would have even have been a screen 80 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 2: to screen this thing off. So way up here is 81 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 2: the altar. People can't even see what's going on up there, 82 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: and it's all in Latin. They have no idea what's 83 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: going on. It's physically above them and they can't understand 84 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: what's happening. So the church is these guys with the 85 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: pope at the top. It's an organism or an organization. Okay, 86 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: church is organization. Sixteenth century Protestants are going to say, no, 87 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 2: it's not. The church is an organism, not an organization. 88 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: And the doctrine here is called the priesthood of all believers. 89 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 2: So what they're going to say is everybody is part 90 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: of the church, and there's only one distinction between clergy 91 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 2: and lay people, and that is what they called the 92 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: office of the Word. So the only difference between clergy 93 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: and lay people is clergy have the right to teach 94 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: and by extension, to do sacraments, because that was seen 95 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 2: as an extension of the teaching office. So priesthood of 96 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 2: all believers means two things. Number One, you have all 97 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: the rights of the clergy save one, the preaching office, 98 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 2: which means who's between you and God nobody, So it's 99 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 2: a flattening okay. Second part, and this is the part 100 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: that we don't like. You have all the responsibilities of 101 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: the clergy save one, meaning who's responsible to do the ministry, 102 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 2: answer everybody. The clergy's job is to teach the word, 103 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: to equip the saints to do the work. So I've 104 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 2: made the argument that many large Protestant churches are functionally 105 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 2: Roman Catholic. They pay clergy to do the ministry. They 106 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 2: think their job is to show up, watch and pay 107 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: the professionals. That's Roman Catholic. Who's responsible to raise children 108 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: in the faith? Well, the youth pastor, of course, no, 109 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: parents are Am I opposed to youth pastors? Of course not. 110 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: Who's responsible to do evangelism? Well, the pastor of evangelism? 111 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 2: Am I opposed to ask? No? But you see how 112 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: this is working. What Luther is going to do and 113 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: other Protestants are going to do is say Christianity is 114 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: not a spectator support. Every Christian has a gift. Every 115 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: Christian is a meaningful part of the church church. Every 116 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: Christian is a priest. Every Christian is a necessary part 117 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: of the church. So what is the church? Is it? 118 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 2: Is it an organization or is it an organism? That's 119 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: a fundamental difference. Number one? Number two? How do I 120 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: stand before God? How am I saved? Sixty four thousand dollars? 121 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: Word soteriology Okay, in sixteenth century Roman Catholicism, you're saved 122 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: in buy and through the hierarchy of the church, you 123 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 2: are made righteous with God. Through the sacramental system, the 124 00:08:52,600 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: Church dispenses grace that you must get only through the sacraments. 125 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 2: No sacrament, no grace, no grace, no salvation. There's the authority. 126 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So let me just ask a quick question there 127 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: before you go on to the third question. So you 128 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: have this flattening in the ecclesiological section that's obviously interrelated 129 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: to the soteriology and the way you achieve salvation within 130 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: the Roman Catholic system, and you can see that mediatorial 131 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: role of the church. The people have to come to 132 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: the church to get the grace, to spense sufficient to 133 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: actually earn their righteousness, and those things come not necessarily 134 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: through Although I think sometimes my impression was Catholics teach 135 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: that you need to be a good person in order 136 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: to go to heaven. That's probably a little bit too 137 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: simplified an understanding of what's going on, because what's really 138 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: happening is you have to participate within the ructures and 139 00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: practices of the church, the sacraments of the Church, in 140 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: order to be saved coct Okay. 141 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: Correct, You are never saved by works alone. You are 142 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: saved by works plus grace and faith. 143 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 1: And that grace plus faith is mediated by the Church through. 144 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: The sevenfold Sacramental system, which we can talk about some 145 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: more at another time. 146 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: Great, Okay, that clarifies. Okay, So we have what is 147 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: the church? How? How do I stand before a righteous God? 148 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 1: How do I stand before God? How am I saved? Okay? 149 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: So what do Protestant sixteenth century Protestants say? It's not 150 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: church centered, it's God centered. Yeah. This is justification by 151 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: faith alone in Christ alone, as he's found in the 152 00:10:54,960 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 2: Bible alone. Justification by faith alone in Christ alone, as 153 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 2: he's found in the Bible alone, solo fida, sola christ 154 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: solo scriptura. Okay, So it's God centered. Salvation is something 155 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:28,359 Speaker 2: God does, and the peace underneath this is things like predestination, election, 156 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: because faith is a gift from God and faith is 157 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: something that is personal. Yeah. So here's another difference in 158 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: the In the Catholic system, there is what's called or 159 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: I will. The term that I use is implicit faith. 160 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 2: You don't even need to understand. They can believe for you. 161 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: M Okay, I need to do is show up. Okay, 162 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 2: you don't need to understand this stuff. It's okay that 163 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: it's Latin. Just do what you're doing. Okay. They have 164 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 2: explicit faith, You can have implicit faith. That's what I 165 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,199 Speaker 2: mean religion as spectator sport. Look, you can feel it 166 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 2: when you walk in the building and you know, James, 167 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: and when when people come with us on the tourist 168 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 2: they will see. How has the Catholic Church tried to 169 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: fix this after Vatican too, they shoved the table down. 170 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 2: Nobody does the mass up the big altars anymore. They 171 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: shove the table down. It's simple. It's on the same 172 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: level as the people. They serve it from the same 173 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: level as the people. They tried to shove it down 174 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: into the people so that there isn't that great golf anymore. 175 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 2: But that was a deliberate golf. They were built that way. 176 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: It was to remind you they're the guys. You're just 177 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 2: the schmos that show up. So faith is something that 178 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: God does. Yep. Faith is the object or the virtue 179 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: by which you are made right with God. The object 180 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 2: of that faith is Jesus, and Jesus, the Jesus who 181 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: saves is found solely in the scriptures. This is a 182 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: point that both Luther and Calvin make. The Jesus who 183 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: saves is the Jesus of the Bible, not the one 184 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 2: you make up in your own head. So it's the 185 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: Bible alone in that sense, which gets us to the 186 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 2: third question. And this is the question that really is 187 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: the ultimate question. It's the question of authority. And the 188 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: sixty four thousand dollars word for authority is authority. Yeah, 189 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 2: who or what has the right to define what I 190 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: must believe and what I must do? Who or what 191 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 2: has the right to define what I must believe and 192 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: what I must do? Sixteenth century Roman Catholicism. It's the hierarchy, yeh, 193 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 2: Cardinal Archbishop ding Ding Ding ding Ding down to the 194 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 2: local priest. Yeah, Protestants, it's the Bible alone. This is 195 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: the one that is the the that there is no 196 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: way to make this one work. You will find that 197 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 2: Catholics and Protestants can find places of agreement on the 198 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: first two questions. 199 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: I can believe that, Yeah. 200 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 2: You can. You can find strands. I mean I I 201 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: have a master's from a Roman Catholic Jesuit university. I 202 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: had a class in soteriology from a Jesuit father. And 203 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: he said, I remember scaring my mentor because I said, 204 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 2: I always thought Luther and Augustine made more sense on 205 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: justification than a Quinas did. And you know, and he 206 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 2: was very Augustinian Lutheran on soltariology. Yeah, but he accepted 207 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 2: the authority of the Pope. Yeah. You can't fudge on that. 208 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: Either either you accept people and fallibility or you don't. 209 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: There's no no way around that. Either either it's the 210 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 2: Bible alone or the Pope. But you can't. There's no 211 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: middle one on that one. Yeah. And that's the one 212 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: that even when you look at the sixteenth century, every 213 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 2: time they tried to find ways to rebridge this, anytime 214 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 2: a doctrine came up that Protestants would say, make it 215 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: clear from the Bible, and the Catholic Church would say, well, 216 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: the fourth lateran council or the Pope has declared, end 217 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: of conversation. There's nowhere to go on that. 218 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I even remember, you know, there was and 219 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: I don't recall exactly when they did it, but there 220 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: was a joint declaration on justification I believe between the 221 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: Lutherans and the Catholics if I'm remembering that correctly, Yes, 222 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: and you can sort of understand between Lutherans and Catholics. 223 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: I will say there is probably even more commonality between 224 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: Lutheran doctrine and Catholic doctrine than there would be let's say, 225 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 1: to Southern Baptist or you know, those kind of things. So, 226 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 1: just to give an illustration of what I have in 227 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: my head, the way that baptism produces faith within the 228 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 1: Lutheran doctrine resonates with the sort of sacramentalism you still 229 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: see in the Roman Catholic Church. Something like that. Yes, 230 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: but still I take your point like there is a 231 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: way to bridge it. The issue is always going to 232 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: be do we surrender ourselves too? And in the Lutheran case, 233 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,719 Speaker 1: it would probably be do we surrender the entire Lutheran 234 00:17:44,760 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: denomination to the Roman Catholic Church, because that denomination is 235 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: a bit more hierarchically structured, And even though they might 236 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: sit under the Bible alone, the church sits under the 237 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: Bible alone a little more than like individual Christians sit 238 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: under the Bible alone. Again, as you might see in 239 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: like a more autonomous doctrinal or independent church. Let's say, yeah, 240 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean you know. I mean there's shades of it, right, 241 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: a simple illustration. 242 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 2: I mean I used to say this all the time 243 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 2: to kids on study abroad at Moody. I'd say, look, 244 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 2: we may be visiting the Catholic Church. Don't take the mass, well, 245 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 2: and Catholics will say, please, do not take the mask. 246 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: Take the mass, right, because part of taking the mass 247 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: is accepting papal authority. 248 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a solidarity there, and that's right. It is interesting, 249 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: go ahead, good well. 250 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 2: I mean it's simply a maunt of respecting them. Yeah, 251 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: you know, and there's no way around that. 252 00:18:55,119 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's it's so it's been interesting to 253 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: me if we just go back to the justification by 254 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: faith for a minute. So in New Testament scholarship, there's 255 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: been a movement by some to go back and rethink 256 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: the meaning of faith. So biblical work on pistas and 257 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: pistis related terms. In the New Testament, pistics is the 258 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: Greek work for faith. There has been this movement toward 259 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: faith as fidelity or faith as loyalty that seems to 260 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: me to actually have some you know, as an Old 261 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: Testament guy, and you're looking at the love of God 262 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: in Deuteronomy and you realize that to love God is 263 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: to be loyal to him. 264 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 2: Right. 265 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: Devotion is not a warm, fuzzy feeling, It's a giving 266 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: oneself over to it in you know, in full measure. Right, 267 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: So there's an intuitive sense where I'm like, yes, of 268 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: course faith involves loyalty. Do you have a sense greg 269 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: of how that sense of faith would have factored into 270 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: justification by faith in Luther's day? Or was this just 271 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: strict I believe it, you know, sort of. I assent 272 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: to it, intellectually commit to live by it. You know, 273 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: what's the range on that within Luther? Do you have 274 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: any idea? 275 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I think I think Luther gets a bum 276 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 2: wrap on this because he is constantly accused of being 277 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 2: an Antinomian. That means lawlessness, is it right? Obedience doesn't matter, 278 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 2: And I'd take us back to the ninety five thesis. 279 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 2: When our Lord and Savior said repent, he didn't mean dependent. 280 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: He meant the entire life of the believers to be 281 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 2: one of repentence. 282 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, which suggests obedience, which is obedience? 283 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 2: I mean? Right, now, here's where I think Luther complicates it. Okay, 284 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: because Luther does not diminish the law. So here's the law. 285 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, 286 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: and strength. And second is under the first, love your 287 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 2: neighbor as yourself. When when do you do that? When 288 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 2: does anybody do that? When is anybody ever obedient? Yeah? 289 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 2: Answer never? 290 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: Never? 291 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: So what should what should your life look like? Of 292 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,360 Speaker 2: course it should look like repentance. Repentance is a way 293 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 2: of life. Guess what else is the way of life? Faith? 294 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 2: The just shall what by faith live? Faith is not 295 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: something you did. Faith is something you do. Luther doesn't 296 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: care what you believed. On December the seventh, two thousand 297 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: and three. Yeah, so you know I quoted I think 298 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 2: I'm quoting him. Right. There's a guy named Malcolm Muggridge 299 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 2: who was kind of like C. S. Lewis Part two, 300 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 2: but never as famous. And somebody asked Muggridge, and I've 301 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 2: never looked this up, but I think this is right. 302 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: When did you decide for Christ? And his answer was 303 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 2: a classic Lutheran when he said, I hope I decide 304 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:47,239 Speaker 2: for him every day. Yeah, Luther isn't interested in what 305 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: you did, He's interested in what you do. Faith isn't 306 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 2: something you did. Faith is something you do. Belief is 307 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: something you do. Faith is a way of life, as 308 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 2: is repentance. So Christian and that he consists of two things, 309 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: faith and repentance. That's why gospel and law can never 310 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: be separated. You must always preach law and gospel. You 311 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 2: have to kill your people every week and then raise 312 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 2: them from the dead. So if you preach just law, 313 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 2: you destroy people. If you preach just gospel, you make 314 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: them lawless. That's why he says nutty things like if 315 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: you think you're good, you need to go commit a 316 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: little sin. You need to go drink too much, you 317 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: need to go sleep too much, you need to be lazy, 318 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: because there's no word of comfort in scripture for people 319 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: that don't think they're sinners. Yeah, so so how do 320 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: you That doesn't really fit either category? So you know, 321 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 2: so for him, yeah, holiness means faithfulness, but faithfulness means believing, 322 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 2: and the sure sign of believing is repentance. So you know, 323 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,640 Speaker 2: how does this? It doesn't really work in those categories. Yeah, 324 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: you see, you see what I mean? 325 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: I do I don't I don't know. I don't know 326 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 1: Luther's work well enough. But it strikes me that, like 327 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: first John would resonate with the way Luther's with the 328 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: way you're describing what Luther's saying. If you even if 329 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: you just go to First John one, and you know, 330 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: the initial one is God is light, and if we 331 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: walk in the light, if we have, we have fellowship 332 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 1: with Him. If we walk in the light, if we 333 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: walk in darkness, we don't. And then you know, if 334 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: we deny our sin, right, we deceive ourselves. But if 335 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: we confess our sin, he is faithful and righteous to 336 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: forgive us our sins in cleensic all and righteousness. You 337 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: have these sort of markers. Whereas, yes, you're walking in 338 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: the light. Part of walking in the light is agreeing 339 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: with God that you are doing things that are anesthetical 340 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: to what you would have you do. That is confession. 341 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: And so you have later on in First John, you know, 342 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: the combination of love and obedience, love and obeying the 343 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: commandments of God. And so it just it strikes me 344 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: that Luther's onto something there and that these are important 345 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: aspects of you know, when we talk faith alone, we're 346 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: not just talking about an intellectual assent or even a 347 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: moment of commitment. Faith is a life of commitment, and 348 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: I think maybe because we're running a little low on time. 349 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: I want to if faith is a life of commitment, 350 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: it seems to me that the teaching office that is 351 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: part of the structure of the way that they framed 352 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: out what is church that you described earlier becomes way 353 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: more crucial. We make it today, way more. 354 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: Yes, and that's why that's why I think he would 355 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 2: be very frustrated at the whimsical nature that we the 356 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 2: way we treat the teaching office. If a I don't 357 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 2: need it or be anybody in their brother can do it. Yeah, 358 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 2: you know it does say not many of you should 359 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 2: be teachers number one and number two. We tend to 360 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: assume that the key to spiritual growth is my own 361 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: personal Bible study, as if Christianity is personal growth, and 362 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 2: you know, christian growth is accomplished independent of the teaching office. 363 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 2: I don't Why did God establish it then? Right? And 364 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 2: you know, to me this is these things are like 365 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: self evident. How how did Christians function for so many 366 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 2: for thousands of years without personal devotions? 367 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? 368 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I'm not saying I'm a post That's 369 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: not my point. My point is not saying you shouldn't 370 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 2: that personal. But for some some way people were able 371 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 2: to function effectively without having personal devotions and doing daily 372 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: Bible readings, right, and. 373 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: Well, this gets us back to things like you know, 374 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: and we don't need to go into all this, but 375 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I think the teaching office 376 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: and some of the let's say, just the church calendar, 377 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: the electionaries that are followed the Catechism, obviously that Luther 378 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: was big on, and I was. I grew up Lutheran, 379 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: so I went through the luther Small Catechism before I 380 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: was confirmed in the Lutheran Church, and so I remember 381 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: a lot of those things, and it actually was a 382 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: helpful way of understanding and putting barrier boundaries around faith. 383 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of this goes to when 384 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: we strip out too much of the structure, we run 385 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: the risk of losing something that we really don't want 386 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: to lose, yep. And that's you know, I understand that 387 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 1: tension within the Reformation. What do we keep what do 388 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: we get rid of? We have these solos, but I 389 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: would even argue that as we're looking at those three 390 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: questions that you gave us and then the five solos 391 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: that extend from them, Man, there's a lot of nuance 392 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: we need to put around each one of these. Yeah, 393 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 1: it's like we have to understand them in context in 394 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: order for them to really function. We just can't slap oh, 395 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: it's sola scripture around and assume So whatever I interpret 396 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: the Bible to be, that's. 397 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:54,479 Speaker 2: What it is. 398 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: And that's you know, all this is, or you know, 399 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: priesthood of all believers. Nobody can tell me what to do, 400 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: you know, those kind of things. It's like, ex no, No, 401 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: that's not what this was. This was a much more structured, 402 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 1: much more nuanced system of five convictions, right, that were 403 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: intended to function in a particular way. 404 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: And that's why I framed this as sixteenth century Protestantism. Yeah, 405 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: and you know, I you know, we're gonna we're doing 406 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: other podcasts and one of them is on American Revivalism, 407 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 2: and and that's where American Protestantism is not sixteenth century 408 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: European Protestantism, Right, that's a whole different ball of wax. 409 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: Now we're cousins, but there's a lot of water that 410 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 2: went under the bridge. And you know, so for our listeners, 411 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: please tune in so Paul Harvey can get the rest 412 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: of the story because because a lot of things that 413 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: we assume about Protestantism are American not Protestant, and that's 414 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: important distinction to make. Yeah. Yeah, individualism, the right to 415 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: individual interpretation, all those kinds of things are quite different 416 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 2: than what the Protestants had in mind, and they may 417 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: not even be what the New Testament had in mind. 418 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's interesting when you rip it out, pull 419 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: it into a different context and you see even how 420 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: just a sort of gesture to some of what will 421 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: go through and the Great Awakening and those kind of things, 422 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 1: the break from the Church of England and the reactions 423 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: that are occurring based on that on the Church of 424 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: England have to condition some of what's going on in 425 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: American Protestantism as well as just sort of the colonial 426 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: instincts that are going on within the founding of America. 427 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: There is a particular sort of individual who's going to 428 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: go to a land that has not been conquered. I mean, 429 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: I don't even like to go camping, greg Like, I 430 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: don't know, I don't want to. I don't want to 431 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: have to find the porta potty, right, Like I am 432 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: not going to be a great colonist that is not 433 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: going to be my thing, right, Hey, yeah, let me 434 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: go and figure things out. 435 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 2: Nope. 436 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: If there's not a Hampton, I'm really good. I'll just 437 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: I'll wait for you guys to build one, and then 438 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: I'll come over and see it. I think there's a 439 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: certain mentality of these guys that when they came over, 440 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: it's like, no, it's game time and we're going to 441 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: do this. And that mentality gets baked in in a 442 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: lot of different ways into an early American Christianity. Absolutely, absolutely, well, 443 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: this is very good. We've got probably one or two 444 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: more that we're going to do on the Reformation, the 445 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: German Reformation, some of these. We'll probably talk one more 446 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: on the Sola's. I'd like to get into the idea 447 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: of justification by faith and maybe do a little bit 448 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: of work on the new perspective Luther's conception of justification 449 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 1: by faith and the particularly I would say the background 450 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: the Protestant scholarship is used to understand the Jews of 451 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: Jesus's day has been subject to a lot of debate 452 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: over the last let's call it decade and a half, 453 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: and so I think there's there. It's worth kind of 454 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: closing this up, maybe with that and then otherwise, I 455 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 1: just encourage everybody. We're going to do some of these 456 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: on Swiss Reformation, We're going to do some of these 457 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: on some of the other historical aspects of our faith, 458 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: and just encourage you to tune back in check out 459 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: our Great Awakening stuff when it comes out. We're planning 460 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: for that to release in October, and we're actually doing 461 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: it as a well produced series. So these are just, 462 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, a minimal edit sort of podcast that one's 463 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: going to be. Think of it like your favorite true 464 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: crime podcast, really well done, scored, edited, all that kind 465 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: of fun stuff. So keep an eye out for that one. 466 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: And Greg, it's always a pleasure to have you. Well, 467 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: we'll be back in the next episode. And for everybody 468 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: who's listening, thanks for being here and have a great day. 469 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: We'll see you on the next episode of Thinking. I 470 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: just want to take a second to thank the team 471 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 472 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 473 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 474 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.