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Speaker 1: Coming up on Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic my son

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Speaker 1: when he was nine.

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Speaker 2: I remember him looking at me. Dage just said, if

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Speaker 2: Danny loves us so much and wise he drink so much?

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Speaker 2: And I just looked at him and I said, look, buddy,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how to explain that to you. I wonder the same thing,

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Speaker 2: But I do know he does love us.

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Speaker 1: Plus, I'm a doctor.

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Speaker 2: I take care of people who have addiction. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: fix or solve my husband's problem. I couldn't hear that

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Speaker 2: for him.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: If a doctor can't do it, you know nobody can.

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Speaker 2: It has to come from the person with the addiction.

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Speaker 1: All that and more on this episode Life Audio. Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast.

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Speaker 1: I am your host, John Seidel, and I am the

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Speaker 1: Christian who became an alcoholic, not the other way around.

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Speaker 1: Here we get radically vulnerable about addiction, recovery, messy, sanctification,

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Speaker 1: and all the things we turn to instead of Jesus

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Speaker 1: because we're all addicted to something. You'll hear raw honest

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Speaker 1: conversations from those who have struggled, those who help those

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Speaker 1: who struggle, and why aiming for Jesus and getting sobriety

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Speaker 1: thrown in is actually the best goal. So let's get

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Speaker 1: right into this week's episode. There's a chapter in my

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Speaker 1: book that I never wrote. I don't mean that it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, written by some ghostwriter. What I mean is

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Speaker 1: there was a chapter that I was originally supposed to write,

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Speaker 1: and when I got to the point where I sat

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Speaker 1: down to write it, I couldn't write it. And that

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Speaker 1: chapter was supposed to be, or what was going to

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Speaker 1: be advice for friends, family members, loved ones, of those

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Speaker 1: struggling with addiction, because in my first book, Finding Rest

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Speaker 1: on Faith in Mental Health, I had wrote a chapter

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Speaker 1: for loved ones and family members kind of just offering

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Speaker 1: some tips and advice on on how to and how

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Speaker 1: to handle it right and and what to do and

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Speaker 1: what to say and what not to say. And it

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Speaker 1: was it was like it was like a runaway success

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Speaker 1: and people would would reach out to me or I'd

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Speaker 1: meet them and they'd say, man, that chapter was so

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Speaker 1: helpful for me, and and I thought, okay, well I'll

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Speaker 1: duplicate that that uh for this, for this next book,

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Speaker 1: for confessions, and but when I sat down to write it,

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Speaker 1: I just realized, not that mental health is necessarily one

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Speaker 1: size fits all, but addiction especially isn't one size fits all.

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Speaker 1: And while there were some universal, you know, principles and

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Speaker 1: ideas that I felt comfortable conveying regarding mental health health,

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Speaker 1: I just I just realized, like, I can't do that

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Speaker 1: for this, because they're there. There are just too many variables.

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Speaker 1: I say that because today's guest, I think is is

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Speaker 1: what I hoped for an envisioned when I wasn't able

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Speaker 1: to write that chapter. Today's guest is is the wife

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Speaker 1: of someone who battled addiction alcoholism in particular, and that

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Speaker 1: person lost the battle. And so Brenda fan Catula reached

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Speaker 1: out to me after listening to this podcast regularly and said, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I would love to come share my story and encourage

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Speaker 1: loved ones and family members from the perspective of someone

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Speaker 1: who has been there, who has Ben Gaslett, who has

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Speaker 1: I had to protect your kids and her family, who

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Speaker 1: has done the interventions, who has gotten church involved, who

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Speaker 1: has done like you know, anything and everything, and I

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Speaker 1: want to let them know my experience and maybe offer

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Speaker 1: some encouragement and thoughts and I thought, Yep, that's that's

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Speaker 1: what I want, right. I couldn't write the chapter, but

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Speaker 1: I can't have guests and interview people like Brenda, and

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Speaker 1: so I know that there are plenty of people out

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Speaker 1: there who are friends and family and loved ones who

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Speaker 1: need encouragement. In this episode will give it to you.

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Speaker 1: So Brenda today is going to share her story now,

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Speaker 1: because this is the longest episode we've ever recorded, rather

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Speaker 1: than cut it down or make it hard to listen

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Speaker 1: to in one city, I've decided to do a first

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Speaker 1: in Confessions history, and that is I'm splitting this up

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Speaker 1: into part one and part two, and so this will

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Speaker 1: be part one. Part two will be the next episode,

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Speaker 1: which if you're in a since following along live, that

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Speaker 1: will be next week, or if you're just binging this,

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Speaker 1: then you can just go on to part two right

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Speaker 1: after this one. In the first episode, we are going

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Speaker 1: to talk about Brenda's husband's drinking problem, like how she

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Speaker 1: came to realize it, how it progressed, the warning signs,

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Speaker 1: the extraordinary steps that she took to protect her children,

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Speaker 1: which is really important, and we'll also talk about what

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Speaker 1: she wishes she had done differently, which is an interesting conversation,

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Speaker 1: and then how she, as a physician who treats people

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Speaker 1: and recognizes the signs of alcohol addiction, how even she

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Speaker 1: couldn't make it all stopped. And I think that's a

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Speaker 1: really important conversation because I talk to a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of spouses who want sobriety, who want in

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Speaker 1: a sense, the full life that Jesus offers. They want

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Speaker 1: it more for their spouse than their spouse does, And

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Speaker 1: so what do you do when that's the case. The

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Speaker 1: second episode we'll talk about and in the intervention that

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Speaker 1: she staged, how that landed her husband in the hospital.

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Speaker 1: There's a Cornfield story that is really interesting, the lengths

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Speaker 1: that she had to go to keep him from driving

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Speaker 1: their children, my goodness, reaching out to the daycare, and

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Speaker 1: that conversation. We'll talk about her anger towards God in

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Speaker 1: part two, and then what she learned about prayer, forgiveness

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Speaker 1: and finding hope after addiction, and that is despite the

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Speaker 1: way that her husband's story ended with his death. I'm

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Speaker 1: really encouraged by this conversation. I think you will be too.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to belabor the point, I want to

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Speaker 1: get right in to it with Brenda fan Katula. She

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Speaker 1: is a medical doctor, a practicing physician. She has her MBA,

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Speaker 1: and she is now going back for her masters in

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Speaker 1: Biblical and theological studies. And so she brings this kind

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Speaker 1: of triple threat perspective right from a medical perspective, from

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Speaker 1: a wife's perspective, and then from a biblical perspective. And

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Speaker 1: I just can't say enough how important and beneficial this

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Speaker 1: conversation is so felt further Ado, Brenda fan Katula, Brenda,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining the Confessions of a

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Speaker 1: Christian Alcoholic podcast. This is really I think it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's going to be a really important episode.

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Speaker 1: And you have been good. You know. I tell people

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Speaker 1: all the time, if you think you have a story,

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Speaker 1: you know, go to Christian Alcoholic dot com, fill out

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Speaker 1: the form reach out to me. You did that, and

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Speaker 1: you've been persistent in a good way about about you know,

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Speaker 1: talking about your your story. And I'm so glad to

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Speaker 1: have you on today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on, well, thank you for inviting me.

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Speaker 1: You know, I said I talked a little bit about

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Speaker 1: you in the intro. But one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I think is so crucial for today's conversation. We were

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Speaker 1: talking a little offline before, but you kind of bring

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Speaker 1: this triumvirent of a perspective right as a medical doctor,

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Speaker 1: as the wife of someone who struggled, and then as

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Speaker 1: a Christian. And so I'm I'm I'm really looking forward

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Speaker 1: to talking about all three of those things. But why

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Speaker 1: don't you just I love I love letting people introduce

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Speaker 1: themselves because I think they pick out, you know, what

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Speaker 1: they think is the most interesting part. So why don't

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Speaker 1: you introduce yourself to the audience.

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Speaker 2: Sure, that's the dreaded interview question, right, Yeah, write me

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Speaker 2: about yourself. So, my name's Brenda Sankatula, and I am,

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Speaker 2: as you said, a physician. I'm a family physician. I'm

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Speaker 2: a mom. I have two wonderful children and three step children.

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Speaker 2: I'm married to a wonderful man. And I am a

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Speaker 2: Bible study teacher, writer leader. And I'm a student. I'm

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Speaker 2: getting my master's in Biblical and theological studies. I have chickens.

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Speaker 2: I love to garden. I love dark chocolate, I love lattes.

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Speaker 2: Being outside. I do not like ticks or mosquitoes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, And you're in that kind of

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Speaker 1: northern Illinois area, where mosquitoes are kind of the state bird.

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Speaker 2: In summer, yes they are, but we also have winter.

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Speaker 2: So I love winter and I'm happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, as someone who grew up and is from Wisconsin,

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Speaker 1: I can say that I don't like winter. I was

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Speaker 1: tired of it, and so I fled down to Texas.

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Speaker 1: We're now, you know, on certain Christmases it's eighty degrees

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Speaker 1: and I'm I'm always pointing that out to my family

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Speaker 1: who is still in Wisconsin. They're actually kind of visit

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Speaker 1: in a few weeks.

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Speaker 2: So we send our sympathies that you have no y.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's one hundred and five in July, you know.

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Speaker 1: Then I'm like, okay, I'll take some still. So and

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, Brenda, how did you start listening to the podcast?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: How did you find us?

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Speaker 2: Sure? So I was someone had suggested to me that

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Speaker 2: I start listening to podcasts, and I just basically searched

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Speaker 2: Christian alcohol Christian addiction, and I came across yours, and

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Speaker 2: your titles just got me Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic,

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Speaker 2: and I listened to your first one in your story,

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Speaker 2: and then several of your interviews and that's how I

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Speaker 2: found you.

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Speaker 1: And I would say, I would say in some ways,

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Speaker 1: you are a student of the podcast, because you know,

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Speaker 1: as you pointed out, you're like when you reached out,

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Speaker 1: you're like, hey, you know, it doesn't sound like you

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Speaker 1: have a lot of perspective to say from family members.

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Speaker 1: And I said, you are exactly right. And so many

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Speaker 1: that listen to this podcast and read what I write

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Speaker 1: and whatnot are people who love people who struggle. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you have this story of loving someone for

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Speaker 1: a while who struggled with alcoholism and eventually lost that battle.

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Speaker 1: And I know there's I know there's at least one

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Speaker 1: other person right now because that person has emailed me

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Speaker 1: who has a very similar story. And in fact, you

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Speaker 1: just lost her husband in I believe December to to

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Speaker 1: to alcoholism. And so I know how important it is

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Speaker 1: for you to be on the show today. So why

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Speaker 1: don't you just kind of take us back and tell

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Speaker 1: us your story, tell us about your husband, tell us

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Speaker 1: when you started noticing it, and then you know what,

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Speaker 1: kind of dig into some many other aspects. We'll be

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Speaker 1: right back after this.

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Speaker 2: So you know, we got married and he drank then

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Speaker 2: when we when we were dating, and one of the

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Speaker 2: things I noticed was I would buy a bottle of rum,

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Speaker 2: you know, so that when he would come over, if

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Speaker 2: he wanted a drink, he could have a drink. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things I noticed was that handle of rum,

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Speaker 2: which I thought would last weeks or months, was gone

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Speaker 2: in the weekend. And I think if I was if

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Speaker 2: I'm being honest, I probably I shouldn't say probably, I'm

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Speaker 2: still hedging right if I'm being totally honest. I suspected

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Speaker 2: that he had a problem back then. And the one

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Speaker 2: thing I do want to say before I go into

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Speaker 2: the story is, you know, he was a good man,

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Speaker 2: the kind man. You know, I loved him for a reason.

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Speaker 2: He had an awful disease, and that disease just ate

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Speaker 2: away at all of those good parts of him. So

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Speaker 2: as I'm telling the story, I just wanted to be clear.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying bad things about him. It's the disease

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Speaker 2: that's bad, and I just want to make sure there's

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Speaker 2: that distinction. So we got married, and within two years

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Speaker 2: we had our daughter, and then a couple of years

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Speaker 2: later we had our son, and quite quickly the drinking escalated.

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize how much trauma and PTSD. He had

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Speaker 2: been caring, and I also didn't realize the extent of

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Speaker 2: undiagnosed depression and anxiety that he had. So when he

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Speaker 2: was ten years old, his family was in a single

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Speaker 2: car accident on a sunny August day. His mom dead,

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Speaker 2: older sister in the front stiat of the car all died.

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Speaker 2: He was the oldest surviving sibling. He had a younger

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Speaker 2: sister and a younger brother in the backseat. They survived,

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Speaker 2: and another couple was in the backseat. No, this is

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Speaker 2: in the seventies when you had those giant, giant cars,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all both in.

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Speaker 2: There, right, And it was a single car accident, went

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Speaker 2: off the road and hit the tree, and you know,

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Speaker 2: immediately his entire life has changed, right, I mean, he's

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Speaker 2: lost his home, he's lost his family, he's lost everything.

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Speaker 2: And he and his siblings went to live at an

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Speaker 2: orphanage called Moose Heart, where back in the day then

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Speaker 2: boys his age lived in one home, you know, his

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Speaker 2: sister lived in a different home with girls her age,

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Speaker 2: and then his younger brother was in a home for

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Speaker 2: four year olds at that time. And they went to

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Speaker 2: school there on that campus and they learned skills, and

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Speaker 2: they graduated high school. But the ment they graduated, they

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Speaker 2: were expected to leave and that was it. Yeah, both

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Speaker 2: of their parents were only children, so there was no

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Speaker 2: aunts and uncles to take them in. So the first

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Speaker 2: year we were married and the anniversary of that accident

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Speaker 2: came around, I realized he really has some unresolved depression

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Speaker 2: and trauma from this. And he would lay on the

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Speaker 2: couch for days around the time of this accident each year,

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Speaker 2: and gradually his drinking escalated and escalated. And I'll spare

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Speaker 2: you the gory details, but suffice it to say the

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Speaker 2: police in our town knew us very well. The sheriff

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Speaker 2: was out at our house more than once. I'll tell

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Speaker 2: you a story about the restraining order. In a moment

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Speaker 2: that I had a restraining order, you know, thirty day

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Speaker 2: in patient rehabs, refusing to go to counseling or AA

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Speaker 2: because those things didn't work, and the counselors were, you know,

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Speaker 2: didn't know what they were talking about. And I think

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Speaker 2: it was just all an excuse to avoid that discomfort

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Speaker 2: that comes with getting treatment. Yeah, lots of hospital visits,

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Speaker 2: blood alcohol levels that continue to escalate. At one point

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Speaker 2: is blood alcohol level was zero point four. And for

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Speaker 2: those yes, and so a zero point four for those

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Speaker 2: of you who don't understand a blood alcohol level percentages

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Speaker 2: at that level, that's a life threatening level. Fifty percent

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Speaker 2: of people are either comatose or in respiratory depression. And

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Speaker 2: with the zero point four, he was still talking and walking.

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Speaker 2: So this just tells you the incredible amount of tolerance

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Speaker 2: and how much he was drinking, How.

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Speaker 1: Much and what did that look like? How much was

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Speaker 1: he drinking.

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Speaker 2: The big handles of a bottle of rum easily one

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Speaker 2: a day, if not more. I don't think I realized

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Speaker 2: exactly how much he was drinking. I could tell with

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Speaker 2: credit card receipts that he would alternate liquor stores, and

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Speaker 2: I think because he didn't want to see them him

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Speaker 2: coming in so often, so he would go like a

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Speaker 2: cycle of two or three different ones that he would

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Speaker 2: rotate through. When he passed away, I found empty, these

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Speaker 2: large empty rum bottles, instruction sized garbage bags full of them,

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Speaker 2: and large garbage cans full of them hidden up in

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Speaker 2: our barn. So there was you know, he just couldn't

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Speaker 2: put them all on recycling without me noticing, you know,

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Speaker 2: So he was kind of storing them in other places,

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Speaker 2: and it was months and months and months of fighting

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Speaker 2: hidden bottles in the basement, the garage, the barn. After

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Speaker 2: he had passed. But he had withdrawal symptoms pretty bad.

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Speaker 2: He would, you know, start to get sweaty, hallucinate, all

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Speaker 2: of those things, the tremors, you know. At one point

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Speaker 2: I said, you really have to go into the hospital

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Speaker 2: because you're gonna seize if you don't get some treatment

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Speaker 2: now for the withdrawal, and he refused to go. He

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Speaker 2: did not seize. I don't know how he didn't have

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Speaker 2: a seizure from that. He did have an ic U

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Speaker 2: stay where he went in for he talks, and things

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Speaker 2: escalated and he ended up in the intensive care unit

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Speaker 2: on a ventilator. They had to sedate him, you know,

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Speaker 2: with some serious IVY medicines to prevent him from seizing

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Speaker 2: because he was so you know, having such bad withdrawals.

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Speaker 2: So we had a lot of struggles. There were a

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Speaker 2: lot of challenges, as you can imagine, through all of that.

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Speaker 2: But ultimately he continued to lose a lot of weight.

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Speaker 2: All he was doing was drinking and he wasn't really eating,

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Speaker 2: so he got down He's a six to two guy

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Speaker 2: probably to ten two and twenty when I met him,

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Speaker 2: robust guy, and by this time, if he weighed one thirty,

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Speaker 2: I would have been shocked. He was just really, really thin.

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Speaker 2: And then January of that year, my daughter had said,

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Speaker 2: you know, I don't think daddy's going to be here

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Speaker 2: at Christmas, and you know, she's thirteen at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I said, think, I don't think he is either,

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Speaker 2: and he So he passed away over that moment, real

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Speaker 2: day weekend. Our son was ten, our daughter was thirteen. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: I still get a little choked up. Yeah, it's something

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Speaker 2: you never expect that you have to tell your children.

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Speaker 2: And so that's in a nutshell our story.

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Speaker 1: Did his body just shut down?

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Speaker 2: You know? No, he actually I've kept the details of

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Speaker 2: his depth private just for my children. Yeah, but I will,

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Speaker 2: I will. It was not suicide. I will tell you

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Speaker 2: that it was. It was definitely not suicide. And it

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Speaker 2: was related to his drinking.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 2: It was absolutely related to that.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you, thank you for sharing that overview. I know,

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Speaker 1: you know, even I mean, I've lost a stepdad, I've

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Speaker 1: lost a sister, and you know, and to things that

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00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:05,480
Speaker 1: in a sense weren't if you will preventable to a degree.

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Speaker 1: And that's hard and and I'm sure there's just continues

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Speaker 1: to be emotion around that for me, and so I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine for you.

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Speaker 2: I want to.

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Speaker 1: Well, and it's you know, it's it's interesting because part

328
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Speaker 1: of my story is that, you know, my sister who

329
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Speaker 1: I lost, I say I didn't lose her too drugs directly,

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Speaker 1: although she wasn't addict, but it was she was living

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Speaker 1: a lifestyle right that was just hard, right, And so

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Speaker 1: she was she was killed in a car accident that

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Speaker 1: wasn't her fault, but yet it was like, you know,

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00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 1: she was coming back from the junkyard because again she

335
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Speaker 1: didn't have any money because she would spend it on drugs.

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Speaker 1: So now she's scraping together parts for her car, and

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Speaker 1: and it's like it's just this hard, you know, this

338
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Speaker 1: hard life. So I want to go back. I think,

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00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:07,480
Speaker 1: you know, when when you look, when did when did

340
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Speaker 1: you first start realizing okay, this seems to really be

341
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Speaker 1: a problem and what did that look like?

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00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 2: Sure, so there were a couple turning points where I

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00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,880
Speaker 2: realized this is is just crazy. There's a bad problem.

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Speaker 2: I think the the physician side of me you know,

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00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 2: the very rational, practical able to diagnose things. On that

346
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 2: side of me, I think recognized what was going on.

347
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 2: The white's side of me didn't want that to be.

348
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 2: There was some denial there, I think on my part

349
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 2: two and I just couldn't reconcile what was going on.

350
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Speaker 2: And I think at the same time it was it

351
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 2: was just this constant battle in my brain between seeing

352
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: what was happening and dealing with it. And there was

353
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,240
Speaker 2: one day one of my turning points. There were three

354
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: main turning points for me where I realized it was

355
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: a bad problem. One was I had left for work,

356
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 2: and I wear glasses, but my prescriptions so minimal, and

357
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 2: I actually forgot my glasses and forgot to put contacts in.

358
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 2: So I get about halfway to work and I realized,

359
00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 2: darn it. I got Tyrannic go back, and I dropped

360
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 2: the kids off the daycare and started to head work.

361
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: Now I got Tyrannic go back, and he was supposed

362
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: to be at work. He was a self employed carpenter remodeler.

363
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 2: And I walk in the house and he is sitting

364
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 2: on the couch with this giant Roman coke and it's

365
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 2: about eight in the morning, and I just about lost

366
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 2: it because you know, I'm angry I have to go

367
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: to work. I'm angry I'm now having to work full

368
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 2: time because you know, he's not bringing in much money.

369
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 2: And now I realize why, because he's not drinking. I mean,

370
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 2: because he's not working. I realize he's drinking at eight

371
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Speaker 2: in the morning because he has to. The only way

372
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 2: for him to keep the withdrawal away is if he

373
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: continually drinks. And I hadn't realized before that he was

374
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: drinking throughout the day and starting his day off with

375
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 2: a drink. So that was when I realized there's a

376
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 2: bad problem here. The second time, why you should say

377
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 2: not the second time I realized. But more confirmation that

378
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 2: we really had a problem was when he was said

379
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,399
Speaker 2: he wasn't going to drink anymore at all, and the

380
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 2: continual promises, I'm not going to drink, I'm not going

381
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 2: to jump done. And our neighbor of ours was having

382
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: a Halloween party and she had said the kids could

383
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: all come up until like six o'clock and then it

384
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 2: was going to be adults only. So we went over

385
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 2: with the kids, and you know, I had a nice time,

386
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,679
Speaker 2: but you know, they were making drinks and he started

387
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: right away and I said, you weren't drinking anymore. And

388
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: when it was time for the kids to leave, you know,

389
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: the kids and I went home and he decided to stay.

390
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,879
Speaker 2: And you know, I'm sitting on the couch. That's ten pm,

391
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 2: ten thirty eleven, and I'm waiting for him because I

392
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: don't want to lock the door because he doesn't have

393
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: his keys. And then at some point I just realized

394
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: this is not my problem anymore. You know, I'm tired.

395
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to bed. I'm locking the door, and I'm

396
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,360
Speaker 2: going to bed. And that fact that I decided to

397
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,119
Speaker 2: not save or rescue him from not having keys not

398
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: being home, I think was a turning point in my

399
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:32,479
Speaker 2: mind to realize, you just can't keep doing this. And

400
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 2: the final turning point for me was we need to

401
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: get a restraining order. And I will say I will

402
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: preface this by saying if my kids and I were

403
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: in serious physical danger or harm, we wouldn't have stayed.

404
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 2: So I don't want it to sound like that, but

405
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 2: there was a reason for our restraining order, and it

406
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 2: was New Year's Eve. You know, no attorney's offices are

407
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: open on New Year's Eve, the courts were because it

408
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 2: was a Friday, So I take the kids to court.

409
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: I have no idea how to get a wrist writing order,

410
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: but I just thought, well, we'll figure this out. And

411
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: I figured it out, and I go before the judge

412
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 2: and I have the kids sitting in the back of

413
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: the courtroom, and I just remember thinking, I'm trying to

414
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 2: turn around and reassure them this is okay. And then

415
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 2: I thought, you're crazy. You're trying to normalize an absurd

416
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 2: thing here for your children and your family. This is

417
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 2: making no sense. So those were kind of the three

418
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: times three things that really helped me have a little

419
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 2: more insight into you got to do something about this.

420
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you had said in that that there was times

421
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: where your husband said, Okay, I'm I'm not going to

422
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: drink anymore. Did that come from you confronting him? What

423
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: were those What did that look like for him? I mean,

424
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: he obviously is starting to potentially recognize, hey, this is abnormal.

425
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: What did those moments of clarity either for him look

426
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: like or what did it look like for you to

427
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: confront him about that?

428
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: Well, confronting is a very nice word. I'd probably say

429
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: threatened was more of what I did. I was I was.

430
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: I was angry with him, as you can imagine, I

431
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: was really angry with him. So when I would confront

432
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: him about his drinking. Initially, I think early on it

433
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: starts out like everybody right, you know, I think you

434
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: have a problem. No, I don't. And then you start

435
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 2: to question your own sanity. Maybe maybe there maybe there

436
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: was more in the bottle, maybe I'm exaggerating or not

437
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:45,199
Speaker 2: noticing how much you know is gone, and you know,

438
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: you start to question that that guest lighting. You start

439
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 2: to think you're the one nuts. Who are Who's nuts?

440
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: And you know, but eventually, you know, I kept talking

441
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 2: with about I think you have some depression, I to

442
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 2: give some anxiety. And initially he was willing to go

443
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 2: to and so we would we would go, I'll go

444
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: with you. We would go together. And there was always

445
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,399
Speaker 2: a problem with the counselor. And I think the moment

446
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 2: the counselor got close talking about the root of his

447
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: drinking and the reason he drank, I think then he

448
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 2: just that counselor is no good and he wouldn't go

449
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,239
Speaker 2: back to that person. That was a stupid counselor. They

450
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: don't know what they're talking about. And I remember in

451
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 2: your story, you know, you talk about that South Beach

452
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: moment where your wife says, you know, I don't want

453
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 2: you to promise to stop drinking. I want you to

454
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 2: find the cause of why you're drinking. And he just

455
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: he didn't want to do that deep down, So continue

456
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: to go to counseling. Eventually my request to have him

457
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: stop drinking turned into more demands and trying to negotiate

458
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 2: and all of that bargaining and then just the kind

459
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: of threats you can't stay here if you're going to drink,

460
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to kick you out, which I did multiple times,

461
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: but it was towards the end those discussions interactions were

462
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 2: pretty negative. No, I reacted a lot to his drinking.

463
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,199
Speaker 1: So with that in mind, and I hope this is

464
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 1: an a loaded question, but maybe pick up a little

465
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 1: bit on this. Is that because that's sure? I mean,

466
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 1: there's wives or there's husbands listening to this, and you

467
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,120
Speaker 1: know they're really resonating with what you just said, right,

468
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: I don't you know I have a family member who's

469
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: would really resonate with what you said? Would you would

470
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: you do anything differently? Is there do you think, now

471
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: that you're on this side of it, is there a

472
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: different way? Is there a better way? Is it? Is

473
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: there anything you would do differently in how you talk

474
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: to him about it?

475
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there are many things I would have done differently

476
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: and verse Hindsights twenty twenty. But I learned a lot

477
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: of lessons in all of that. I think the first

478
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: thing I would have done differently is trusted my instincts.

479
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 2: You know, I you know again, I'm a physician. I

480
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: understand the science of the disease, understand the diagnosis. I

481
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: understand the cooccurrence of mental health, and you know mental

482
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: health illnesses such as depression anxiety PTSD with addiction. I

483
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: get all that. The wife's side of me was struggling

484
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: with all of that anger and I was, I was,

485
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 2: I can't. Anger was my predominant emotion. I mean, in

486
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: my mind, we had the perfect life. Now it wasn't

487
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: perfect by no means. You know, we lived in a

488
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: small two bedroom house, but we had a great piece

489
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: of property. Wonderful trees is the gorgeous piece property. He's

490
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: a remodeler builder. He's going to remodel and add an

491
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: addition to our house. So we're going to make it

492
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: our own. We have a beautiful daughter, a wonderful son,

493
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: Our kids are healthy, We're healthy, my career is on

494
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: the upswing. What I mean, really, what more could we want?

495
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: In my mind? We just we had it all, and

496
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: so I was angry that he was willing to throw

497
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 2: all of that away and to pick a bottle over

498
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: this what I thought was the most beautiful life possible.

499
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: And I think if I could go back, I think

500
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 2: learning to look at it more objectively and if so

501
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: hard when you're in that role. Right, All I saw

502
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: was the subjective part of that. And you know, one

503
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: of the counselor that I had gone to had told me, respond,

504
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: don't react. Now that's really easy on paper, it's really

505
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: difficult to do. But the physician part of me certainly respond,

506
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: but the wife part of me just reacted. And I

507
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 2: think if I had stepped back, saw it for what

508
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: it was, not let him convince me that this really

509
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 2: wasn't a big deal, or that he's drinking because it's

510
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: my fault because I'm not doing this or I'm doing that.

511
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 2: It was There was always a reason he was drinking,

512
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: and it usually was something I did or was it

513
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: doing And if I learned to, you know, and then

514
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: I'm trying to chase that unnecessarily. Okay, I'll fix what

515
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: I'm doing. So he stopped drinking, that's not why he's

516
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: really drinking. So I think that would have saved me

517
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: a lot of anguish. First of all, I think recognizing

518
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: that no matter what I did, you know, I was

519
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: taught in med school and residency, you work hard, you

520
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 2: don't complain, you compartmentalize, you have emotional resilience, you get

521
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: through these things. And I applied those same strategies to

522
00:31:55,080 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: this marriage. It doesn't work. It just I can't work

523
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 2: harder at his sobriety than he is. And I think

524
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: learning and trusting in God, and there's a whole faith

525
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 2: part to this, but I wish to yeah, I wish

526
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: I had. I wish some of those faith lessons I

527
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 2: learned earlier in the course. I tend I learned them

528
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 2: a little bit later, But that would have also saved

529
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 2: me a lot of anguish. I'm you know, looking back

530
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: at his disease, his trauma and depression anxiety were so bad.

531
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 2: I don't honestly know what I could have said that

532
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: could have convinced him to get the help. I don't

533
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 2: know if there's anything I could have said. He was

534
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 2: very resistant to dealing with that discomfort and vulnerability that

535
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 2: comes with figuring out that root cause. And you know,

536
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 2: I wish I had done more to keep my children

537
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: protected from it, but I don't know that I could

538
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: have impacted his disease, which I think is a critical

539
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: thing for listeners. Because I'm a doctor, I take care

540
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: of people who have addiction, you know, in family medicine,

541
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: I take care of folks who battle alcohol and drugs

542
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: quite often. I couldn't fix her solve my husband's problem.

543
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: I couldn't cure that for him, And I think that's

544
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 2: really an important part for these other folks to realize.

545
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: You know, if a doctor can't do it, you know

546
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: nobody can. It has to come from the person with

547
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: the addiction.

548
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: So you talked about protecting your kids, and I know

549
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: that's that's something that my wife has talked about, right

550
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: because I think there's people who have asked her, Hey,

551
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: why maybe didn't you do X, Y and Z. And

552
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, I think as she has explained it, she's like, listen,

553
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: I became so focused on the kids making sure that

554
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: they had you know, a normal you know, quote unquote life.

555
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: So when you talk about you know what, you know

556
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: thinking back, like what would what would that even have

557
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: looked like? Because I think there are some people who

558
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,399
Speaker 1: are like, Okay, maybe I'm listening to this and I

559
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,479
Speaker 1: know I have to let him or her crash and burn,

560
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: right Like, you know, to your point, you know, maybe

561
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: they have recognized I can't fix them. They're going to

562
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: have to come to the end of themselves, and they're

563
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: in a mode of now I need to at least

564
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 1: minimize the damage. What does it look like to protect

565
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: the rest of your family from some of them?

566
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: That's a really good question.

567
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

568
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. And I think the answer

569
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 2: to that is going to depend on the age of

570
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: the child. Right So you know, if you have for

571
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 2: the baby taborage, you know, a child who truly needs

572
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: to be watched all the time, you can't leave that

573
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: child with someone with an addiction who's under the influence

574
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 2: because there's no way to guarantee they're going to be

575
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: able to keep that baby or toddler safe. So I

576
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 2: think that looks different at that age. I think once

577
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 2: you get in the childhood where kids are, you know,

578
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: a little more self sufficient, and that grade school and

579
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: high school era, you know, I think that protecting them

580
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 2: looks a little different. And then even as adult children,

581
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: I think that looks also very different. And I can

582
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: tell you what I did in the stages and what

583
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 2: I wish I had done differently, and that may help explain.

584
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: But the baby toddler thing, I was constantly watching them.

585
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: You know.

586
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: He never drink outside the home initially, and as his

587
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 2: disease progressed, he would start to drink when we'd be

588
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 2: out for dinner or outside somewhere. He never drove when

589
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: he was drinking before, never, but as his disease escalated,

590
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: much like all addiction, he was willing to take more

591
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: risks in order to have that substance and self medicate.

592
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: You know, he began to drink and drive it those times. Now,

593
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: I never hesitated to take the keys away, hide the keys,

594
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: call the cops. I did that once when I knew

595
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: he was he had left it was driving intoxicated, and

596
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 2: you know, they did not find him, unfortunately, but he

597
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: also did not hit anybody, fortunately, so at least everybody

598
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: was safe. There. But you know, the kids and I,

599
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 2: once they got into grade school, they knew that he

600
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: was drinking and they knew what that all meant, and

601
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: they also knew I had multiple conversations with them about

602
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 2: you never get in the car with daddy when he's drinking.

603
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: And even to this day. You know, when my kids

604
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 2: started to drive, I'm like, when are drunks most likely

605
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 2: to be on the road And their answer to that

606
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: is anytime, And I'm like, exactly, because they can be

607
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: driving at any time. So, you know, the kids had

608
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: I had taught walked them through a plan that if

609
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 2: daddy's making you get in the car and he's been drinking,

610
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: this is what you do. You know, how to avoid

611
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 2: doing that. Daycare was another situation because I was nervous

612
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 2: he would drink and pick them up. I found out

613
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: later what would happen is when he wasn't working, he

614
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: would drink in the afternoon, go pick them up as

615
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 2: if he was getting off work at that time, but

616
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: he'd be driving there drinking and then bring them home.

617
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 2: So I talked with the daycare owner and say, you

618
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 2: just can't let him take them. That was a problem

619
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: because she said, legally, I can't prevent a parent from

620
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 2: picking up their own child. And I said, well, if

621
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: he looks to be under the influence and you have

622
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: to call me immediately, please do not let him ever

623
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: take those children. As his disease got even worse, he

624
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 2: threatened to take the kids and not you know, just

625
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: basically kidnap them and go. And I was terrified about that,

626
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: and I had needed a plan for that. My kids

627
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: weren't old enough to drive at the time, so we

628
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 2: had neighbor a couple of doors down. And this is

629
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 2: one of a like that. You know, there's there's certain

630
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: people throughout this journey that really stand out as having

631
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 2: been remarkably kind and understanding, and she was one of them.

632
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: There's many people like that, but you know, this is

633
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: a neighbor that I knew in passing, talking about plants

634
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 2: and flowers and watching her dog occasionally. And I had

635
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 2: called her and I was crying. I was on my

636
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 2: way to work, and I said, which was the norm,

637
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: you know, my way to work almost all the time.

638
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: But I called her and I said, you know, if

639
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 2: my kids need a safe place to go, they please

640
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 2: come hide in your garage. Because they always left their

641
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 2: service door open for their dog. They hade a dog

642
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: entrance thing, and I said, can they go through that

643
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: and hide in your garage? She didn't ask me any questions,

644
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: She had no idea what was going on in our home.

645
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: She didn't really know me all that well. But her

646
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: answer was yes, of course, and if I'm home, I

647
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: will take them in my home and I will keep

648
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: them until you can come in. And just knowing that

649
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 2: my kids had a safe haven and a plan, just

650
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 2: what is an unbelievably important thing to a mom who's

651
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,240
Speaker 2: trying to protect our kids. My challenge was I worked

652
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: forty five minutes away from our home, you know, so

653
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 2: for me to get back quickly was a bit of

654
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: an issue. But I think having conversations, age appropriate conversations

655
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 2: with them as well, you know, safety first was the

656
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: biggest thing, but talking with them from an emotional perspective,

657
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: you know, making sure that they understood Daddy loves you.

658
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: He's got but he has a disease that makes it

659
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 2: difficult for it to show all the time, you know.

660
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: But then but I think that's important for really important

661
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 2: for kids to know your parents do love you, right.

662
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: And my son when he was nine, I remember him

663
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: looking at me and go, and he just said, if

664
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: Daddy loves us so much, of wise he drink so much.

665
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: And I tried to explain that, and then at some

666
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 2: point I just looked at him and I said, look, buddy,

667
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. I don't know

668
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 2: how to explain that to you. I wonder the same thing,

669
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: but I do know he does love us. And it

670
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 2: was an honest answer. And he said okay, and he

671
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: got down and went and played with legos again. You know,

672
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 2: but checking in with them regularly I think is important.

673
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: Debriefing after certain things is really important. You know, we

674
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: had a lot of arguments in front of the kids,

675
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: and I would have changed that. I think that was

676
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 2: difficult for them to hear and witness all the time

677
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: parents always fighting. But some of those things are easier

678
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 2: said and after the fact, right.

679
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think you know my next question, and

680
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: maybe you've kind of answered it a little bit, but

681
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: you know, how how do you how do you thread

682
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 1: the needle between you know, when you have a loved one,

683
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: and especially when kids are involved. I think a lot

684
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 1: of times they are right of making sure that they

685
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: that you're you're not raising the kids to resent their

686
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 1: their parent, but also not you know, letting that that

687
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: spouse who's engaging in this activity. No, and and sometimes

688
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: maybe even feel Hey, there are consequences for what you're doing.

689
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: You know, you're you're you're driving a wedge between you

690
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: and your kids, or you're driving a wedge between me

691
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: and you. You're driving, Like, how do you thread that

692
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: needle as the you know, sober parent, of of of

693
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: not turning your kids against the other spouse, but then

694
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: not shielding the spouse from some of the consequences of

695
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: their actions.

696
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's a great question. That was a real challenge,

697
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 2: you know, because initially I tried to protect him so

698
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 2: that the kids didn't realize he had this problem. Right,

699
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: So in the morning, I'm cleaning up the mess, Right,

700
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: I'm fixing it all up so the kids don't see this,

701
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 2: and he's not embarrassed in front of them, which is enabling, Right,

702
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 2: he's not having the consequences of his actions. But at

703
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 2: that point, trying to balance what the kids think of

704
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: their dad and him having the consequences of his disease,

705
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,479
Speaker 2: you know, I still had hope he would recover, So

706
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 2: to me, it was more important at that stage to

707
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: protect him and not let the kids see that. Right

708
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: as it went. As his disease progressed, it got to

709
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 2: it was impossible to protect him. But he also wasn't working.

710
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 2: He was staying home more. And what ended up happening

711
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: was instead of them resenting him, I think there were

712
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: a lot of things that happened that made the kids

713
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 2: see him as the hero and see me as the

714
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: as the bad guy, because I had to be the adult,

715
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: and I had a parent in our home, right, so

716
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 2: I'm the one, you know. I can remember saying to

717
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: the kids. You know, okay, we're done with dinner, why

718
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: don't you clean up and get dishes done? And again,

719
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 2: disease talking, not the man, But why are you making

720
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 2: them always do dishes? You're just so lazy. You don't

721
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 2: do anything around here. You should be doing these dishes. Kids,

722
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: You go play? Okay, So now what do I do

723
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: with that? Right? You know? Kids, we gotta sit down

724
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 2: and do homework all that. Teachers are stupid. They don't

725
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 2: have to do any of that homework. They don't even

726
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: know what they're teaching them. Now I'm fighting to do homework.

727
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 2: So I was the bad guy. I think through a

728
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: lot of that, and I think there was the wedge

729
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: really got driven between me and the kids, is how

730
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: I feel. I pray my kids don't feel like that.

731
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: But tiptoeing around correcting what he was saying without escalating

732
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: his behavior in the moment was really tricky for me. Yeah,

733
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: And that balance and that dad started to shift where

734
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: it was just getting untenable, and that's when I would

735
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 2: start kicking him out. No, we can't do this, we

736
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: can't keep doing this right.

737
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: There's one other thing you said that I wanted to

738
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: go back to. You know, you talked about the fact

739
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: that he had this unresolved trauma, the PTSD, the anxiety,

740
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: the depression, which is part of my story as well.

741
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: You know, do you think that if if he would

742
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: have gotten gotten to that that route, if he would

743
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: have addressed that, do you think this would have ended differently?

744
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 2: I think there's a really good chance of that. You know,

745
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: you can't you can't keep going for the quick fix,

746
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:59,439
Speaker 2: the easy solution. You know that PTSD and trauma led

747
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: to a lot of discomfort, a lot of pain, and

748
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,280
Speaker 2: another turning point for him was the Sandy Hooks School shooting.

749
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 2: Do you remember that a long time ago in December,

750
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: our church had a ministry. It was a comfort dog ministry,

751
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: And basically, these are these golden retrievers who are trained

752
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: to be comfort dogs, and in times of great trauma

753
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: like that school shooting, the dogs would go in with

754
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 2: handlers who are trying to bring them into these situations,

755
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: and people who struggled, who were in pain and acute

756
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: trauma from whatever just happened, who couldn't verbalize or articulate,

757
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: they could sit down and pet a dog, right. The

758
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 2: dog would just lay there, put their hat on their lap,

759
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:53,359
Speaker 2: and they could be comforted by a comfort dog. It

760
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 2: was much less threatening in some ways than talking with

761
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 2: another person about what just happened. So he was trained

762
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: as one of these handlers, and he and two ladies

763
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 2: from our church took the dog out out there and

764
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: they went. He went twice, once in de summer and

765
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: then once in January. And I think that trauma of

766
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: going out there to help those kids and seeing what

767
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 2: those kids were going through, I think that resurrected and

768
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 2: just multiplied his own trauma from before. After that, his

769
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 2: drinking dramatically escalated, and I think he just was not

770
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: able to sit with that discomfort and that vulnerability long

771
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 2: enough to actually work on a long term solution. It

772
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 2: was just the quick fix that pain needed to go away,

773
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 2: and it needed to go away. Now, I think if

774
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: he had gotten to that root cause there he may

775
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: have it may have changed the outcome. But I think

776
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 2: that's the only way, the only possibility that could have

777
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: possibly changed the outcome.

778
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 1: So he said something there that I think is a

779
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: great segue that I said, I wanted to get to.

780
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: But you talked about being involved that your church and whatnot.

781
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,839
Speaker 1: I'm curious what was his? What was his and maybe

782
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: yours at the time, and but what was his relationship

783
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: with Jesus like throughout this.

784
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 2: Intermittent? You know it was it was sometimes good, sometimes bad.

785
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 2: When we first started dating and once we got married.

786
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: You know, I church was my faith and church life

787
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 2: had always been a part of my life for me.

788
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 2: There was a little stint in the twenties where I

789
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: got a little mad at God, and but I came

790
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 2: back and what was faithful about going to church and

791
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 2: being involved Bible studies and things for me? So he

792
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: started going with me and we went religiously every every Sunday.

793
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: He was involved in this ministry. I taught awanas for

794
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 2: the kids and led adult Bible studies, and he was

795
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 2: part of an early response team our church had as well.

796
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 2: This was a ministry that when there's tornadoes or other

797
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 2: natural disasters or hurricanes, they'll go out and they'll do

798
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 2: some you know, heavy duty chain saw and tree clean

799
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 2: up and debris clean up, just all in the name

800
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 2: of Jesus. And he was part of that. Someone at

801
00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: church made him mad one time. He didn't like something

802
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 2: someone said to him, so he refused to go back

803
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: and said, we had to find another church. So we

804
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 2: started church shopping, but he wouldn't go with us because

805
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: he was just mad at church. But once I found

806
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: a church that would work, he'd be willing to try

807
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: it out. And I thought, why am I doing the

808
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: church shopping. If he's the one that wants to change churches,

809
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: then he needs to go find with us he wants

810
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 2: to go. But I think again that was just an excuse.

811
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,840
Speaker 2: I think someone at church got a little too close

812
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 2: and identified that he had a problem, and I think

813
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: it was his way of avoiding it, so he would

814
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 2: occasionally go I don't know what his relationship was like

815
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 2: with Jesus when he passed, I really I really don't

816
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 2: know where he was with his faith. And that's that's

817
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: a little uncomfortable for me because I just don't know.

818
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're kind of alluded to this, but you know,

819
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: one of the questions that I had to was was

820
00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 1: and something you said there kind of popped that back

821
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: into my mind, which is, did you guys have friends

822
00:50:52,800 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: either at church or otherwise who were picking up on

823
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 1: on how much of a problem this was becoming or

824
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: was everyone else kind of aloof to it.

825
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 2: I think some people did. I ended up losing all

826
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 2: of my girlfriends because I just I was in survival mode.

827
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 2: I had no time and I was managing the entire house,

828
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 2: working full time, and any free time I had, I

829
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: wanted to be with my kids because I felt like

830
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 2: my opportunity to be a mom with my little ones

831
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 2: was was being taken away. So any moment I had,

832
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: I wanted to be mom. So I didn't have much

833
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 2: time left over. But you know, when you and when

834
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: you don't maintain a friendship, it kind of falls apart.

835
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 2: And that's all on me, and that was that was

836
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 2: my fault. But we had We had a group of

837
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: friends from you know, like daycare and the kids sports

838
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 2: and things that we would occasionally do things with. It

839
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 2: started to get too difficult to go to those because

840
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: I would never know what the outcome was going to be.

841
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 2: I was always on pins and needles. Is is he

842
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 2: going to drink too much and get angry and say

843
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 2: something that's going to embarrass me and make it awkward

844
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: for everybody, Or is it going to go okay and

845
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: he's just going to come home and drink. Most of

846
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 2: the time he would just come home and he would

847
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 2: drink there, but not enough to be massing out. But

848
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: once we got home, then he would really drink more.

849
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 2: That Halloween party that I referenced, one of the neighbors

850
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 2: called me the next day and she says, you know,

851
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: he had quite a bit to drink. Did he even

852
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: make it home last night? So I think people were

853
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: starting starting to notice and starting to suspect. It was

854
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 2: very difficult for a lot of the people that I

855
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 2: did confide in. You know, I felt embarrassed and ashamed

856
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 2: and like I was a failure because of all this.

857
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: So there weren't many people that I told what was

858
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 2: going on. A lot of the people who are very

859
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,399
Speaker 2: close to us that I confide it in, I don't

860
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 2: think could believe it, you know. And I think you

861
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: live in that house and see how much he's drinking,

862
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 2: because he would come behind me and say I'm exaggerating

863
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 2: or I'm the problem, and I think all in a

864
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 2: way to cover up how much he was drinking, and

865
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: you know, he was. He was a very affable guy,

866
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 2: very convincing, and I think he just kind of said,

867
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,600
Speaker 2: she's I don't drink that much, you know, she's exaggerating,

868
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 2: And so I think people assumed I was just being

869
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: a little too picky. Does that make sense?

870
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: No, it absolutely does, right, And I think it's one

871
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 1: of the things that that addiction is isolating, not just

872
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 1: for the person engaging in it, it's also isolating, you know,

873
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: for those around that person, right, And whether intentionally or not.

874
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: I think you know, we as the as the addict,

875
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 1: like it better that way. Right, If I'm on an island, great,

876
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 1: and then if you're on an island, great as well,

877
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: because then you can't you know, draw attention to me

878
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: or or whatnot. So it makes absolute, absolute sense.

879
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 2: The one just with that, you know, we have you know,

880
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 2: there are way more recovering addicts and currently addicted people,

881
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 2: I think than most of the public realize. Yes, and

882
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 2: you know, we have some recovering recovered alcoholics in our church.

883
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 2: They fought through it. They could tell what was going on.

884
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 2: I think they identified it immediately, and they knew, you know,

885
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 2: they would say things to me. One of them, one

886
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 2: of them said, you know, he's he's got a god

887
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 2: sized hole in his heart, doesn't he? You know? And

888
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 2: you know, And then a couple of weeks Larry's like,

889
00:55:02,640 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 2: you know, I I can smell it on his breath

890
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 2: this morning. So there were the people who knew how

891
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: to identify the signs. They knew it right away.

892
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 1: Do you think and this is not an you know,

893
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,240
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to talk bad about anyone or anything.

894
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm genuinely curious. Is there anything that you think or

895
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 1: wish those people could or would have done differently?

896
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,240
Speaker 2: No? Actually they did more than I expected to turn Now,

897
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:44,240
Speaker 2: our church has a phenomenal group of people. My church

898
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:50,240
Speaker 2: family is absolutely amazing. They did not hesitate to help.

899
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 2: So one of the gentlemen, I would just call him

900
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 2: and say, can you give me any advice on what

901
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 2: I could do right now. When we did an intervention,

902
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 2: two of the people from church that he was close with.

903
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 2: I called them and said, this is really bad. Can

904
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,760
Speaker 2: you come over today at three o'clock. We'll be there.

905
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 2: So they didn't hesitate to show up and help in

906
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,799
Speaker 2: any way I asked them to. They tried to. They

907
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 2: tried to talk with him, and they visited him, you know,

908
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 2: when he was in the hospital. They did what our

909
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 2: pastor went to see him when he was in the hospital.

910
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 2: I think people did what they could. So I was

911
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 2: grateful for all of their help. I don't think I

912
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: could have asked anything more of them.

913
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. Well, listen, that feels

914
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: like a good place to pause and kind of put

915
00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: a bow on part one. You know, I was literally

916
00:56:55,080 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 1: just talking to someone this week who has a friend

917
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 1: and they are trying to figure out what to do

918
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: because the spouse just will not admit their issue with addiction,

919
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: and it is really hard. And so I think kind

920
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: of that part where Brenda is talking about not being

921
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: able to want sobriety at a minimum for someone more

922
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: than they wanted themselves. And I know, if you're listening

923
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:44,000
Speaker 1: to this, that can feel so helpless. I get it,

924
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: and I wish I could tell you the magic thing

925
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: to do.

926
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 2: Now.

927
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: Next week we're going to hear some of the things

928
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 1: that Brenda did and what she learned, what you know,

929
00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: the ways in which maybe they were helpful, the ways

930
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 1: in which they or not. But there is not a

931
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: just hey, here's the here's the decision tree outline for you,

932
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: and here's what you can do. There are resources I

933
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: would recommend to start. My my friend Caroline Bidler has

934
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: written a book called When You Love Someone in Recovery,

935
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: and I think there are some great, some great pieces

936
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 1: of advice in that book. But if you are that spouse,

937
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: please reach out, reach out to me. You can go

938
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 1: to Veritas Recovery dot org, veritause recovery dot org and

939
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: shoot a message and there are some resources to that

940
00:58:46,960 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: I can tailor that we can tailor, you know, kind

941
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: of based on your situation and whatnot. So please reach

942
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: out now. Next week we will get the conclusion of

943
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: the story. There's a there is some incredible things in there,

944
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: and then we'll kind of go towards wrapping it up

945
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: with where Brenda has landed today and how she's encouraging

946
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: others as well, so you will not want to miss that.

947
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: If there is something in this podcast, in this episode

948
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: so far that has been helpful to you, please share

949
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: it with someone, not even asking you to, like, subscribe, whatever,

950
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: but share it. Share it with someone who can be encouraged,

951
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,520
Speaker 1: and then go to Veritasrecovery dot org and let me

952
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: know your story as well. Love you all, We'll see

953
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: you back here next week for part two with Brenda

954
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 1: fan Catula