1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 2: It's easy to assume something's wrong when our faith doesn't 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 2: feel the way it used to. There are seasons when 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 2: things feel open and alive, and then there are other 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 2: times when it just feels harder. Prayer doesn't come as easily, 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 2: your energy might be lower. Even your sense of God 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: can feel a little out of reach, and it's subtle. 8 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 2: You're showing up. You still care, but something just feels thin. 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 2: A lot of us quietly carry that, and we don't 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 2: always know what to do with it. Hi, friends, I'm 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 2: Jem Faddling and this is the Unhurried Living podcast, where 12 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 2: we inspire you to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. 13 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 2: Today's conversation is with Tish Harrison Warren, and she's inviting 14 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 2: us not to rush past these seasons. She helps us 15 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 2: slow down enough to notice what might be happening there 16 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 2: and why these places we'd rather avoid might matter more 17 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: than we think. After a word from our sponsor, will 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: dive into our conversation for today. As you're listening to 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 2: this podcast or watching us on YouTube, I'd love if 20 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 2: you would follow us or subscribe. It's absolutely free and 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: it helps Unhurried Living be discovered by more people well. 22 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 2: Today's guest is Tish Harrison Warren, an Anglican priest, an 23 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 2: award winning author known for her deeply thoughtful and grounded 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: writing on everyday faith. Many of you will know her 25 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 2: from her award winning books Liturgy of the Ordinary and 26 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: Prayer in the Night. Her newest book, What Grows in 27 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: Weary Lands, explores something many of us feel but don't 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: often name, seasons of spiritual dryness, fatigue, and even a 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: sense of distance from God. Drawing from her own experience 30 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 2: as well as the wisdom of early Christian monastics, Tish 31 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: offers a way of understanding these seasons not as interruptions 32 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 2: to faith, but as part of its formation. This is 33 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 2: a conversation for anyone who feels tired, we're stuck, or 34 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: quietly worn to the questions. So well, thank you, Tish 35 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: Harrison Warren. Thank you for saying yes to the Unheard 36 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 2: Living podcast. 37 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for asking. Yeah. 38 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,680 Speaker 2: We've enjoyed following all of your books, and this latest 39 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: one is no exception. And I thought we could just 40 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: dive right in and cut right to the chase at 41 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 2: the beginning, because great most of us do not appreciate 42 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 2: that long, slow, unfolding of our lives, which I'm learning 43 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 2: is the way it works. 44 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, I really don't. That's why I wanted to 45 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: write the book because I really really don't. 46 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, most people that I speak with want things to 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 2: happen fast, like if there was a switch we could 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: turn them. But this book you've written, first of all, 49 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 2: is beautiful. I love your writing just as an author. 50 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 2: How beautifully you write, but also how compellingly if that's 51 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: a word. Compellingly. 52 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a weird you. 53 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 2: Right. So I'm wondering if we could jump right in 54 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: here there, right there at the culture where we're trying 55 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: to flip switches and make things happen fast, but maybe 56 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: we could talk about this messy middle Can you just 57 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: sort of open us up right there, this messy middle 58 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: of life that a lot of us might be finding 59 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: ourselves in. 60 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wrote this book. It does feel like a 61 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: mid life or mid faith book. And yeah, I'm really 62 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: realizing that, like it's really coming out of my own midlife. 63 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm super midlife right now. I'm mid faight. So, and 64 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: I talk in the book about how I feel like 65 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: we tell stories or maybe particularly evangelicalism is focused on 66 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: the beginnings, the excitement, youthful exuberance, being on fire for Jesus, conversions, 67 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: kind of the discipleship of of of new starts and 68 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: new beginnings and and sometimes although this isn't always true 69 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: of evangelical but there's there are some places where we 70 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: have space for kind of sages, like people I think 71 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: of like Eugene Peterson at the end of his life, 72 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: for you know, people that are are at the end, 73 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: at the last age, or dying or very old, or 74 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: but there's this long stretch in the middle that I 75 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: just do not think the American Church has talked about 76 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: really in overt ways and also doesn't really have a 77 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: lot of resources for that. They don't uh talk about 78 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: the kind of changing seasons of life and times of 79 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: weariness or times where energy where we have to keep going. 80 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: We still have a long time to go for most 81 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: of us, but our energy is lagging or we feel 82 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: like we are running out of steam, and that I 83 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: think the Historic Church talks about that quite a lot, 84 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,719 Speaker 1: talks about patience quite a lot, has a very sort 85 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: of long view of discipleship. But that is not something 86 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: I have had. I even yeah, I do not think 87 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: that kind of growing up in the American Church, the 88 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: Evangelical Church, really prepared me for the different seasons of 89 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: the spiritual life, and for seasons that are not new 90 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 1: or exuberant. But also we're not in times of deepest 91 00:05:56,960 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: grief or the valley of the shadow of death or 92 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle. And I just wrote this book 93 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: really really craving middle stories. 94 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 2: Do you find yourself in midlife right now? So you 95 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: probably were able to draw on your own feelings and experiences. Yeah, 96 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 2: I mean like real time. 97 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I draw a lot on my own feelings and experiences. 98 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: The book is not written so much as a hey, 99 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: this is what I learned. Here's the five steps through 100 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: the desert or the middle I explicitly use the language 101 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: of field notes. It's kind of a field notes from 102 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: what I am experiencing. And so it's not that I 103 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,559 Speaker 1: give practices, but I don't exactly give solutions. In fact, 104 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm skeptical of the idea that, like the desert is 105 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: something that we need to solve or get through or 106 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: rush through or her three or figure out our way 107 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: to get into some better flourishing place. I think the 108 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: middle lands are away are the place that we meet God, 109 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: and so that's what I tried to kind of bring out. 110 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: And not only is it do I talk about my 111 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: own life? I think I wrote the book to try 112 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: to figure out my own life. I mean I think 113 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: it started as like a series of journal entries that 114 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: were very poorly written and had to be edited over 115 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: many years into what it. 116 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 2: Is to say that makes a lot of sense. Well, 117 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 2: I did sense you, of course, as a companion more 118 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: than an answer giver as I was reading it, and 119 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: I really appreciate that tone. And not only were you 120 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: a companion with us, but you pointed to a lot 121 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: of other companions, which was which was so good. And 122 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: we will definitely get into that. But let's hover here 123 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: again just on this idea of middle whatever that means 124 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: for somebody. You don't have to be in the middle 125 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: of life to experience that sensation. There's other words, right 126 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: the wilderness. One of the words you chose was a riddity, 127 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: which we don't use that word very often. And sometimes 128 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: when people find themselves there, they think there's something wrong. 129 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: So can we talk about that for a minute. Maybe 130 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 2: there's not something wrong. Maybe this is part of the process. 131 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 2: What does that mean? 132 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a huge thing. I wanted to give 133 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: people the word a riddity because I had not really 134 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: been given that word. And also, I just think when 135 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: I the book came out of me hitting a time 136 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: where it felt like God was very distant and I 137 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: would pray and it felt like I didn't know where 138 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: God was in the middle of that, in the middle 139 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: of my prayer life, it felt the word I used 140 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: to my husband, it was like the line had gone dead, 141 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: like or the call had dropped, and I had no 142 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: agory for that. That wasn't that I was doing something wrong, 143 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: or that I was somehow in sin, or that God 144 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: was you know, had other better people to deal with 145 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: than me. I just didn't know what I was doing 146 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: or what I should be doing to make my subjective 147 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: experience of prayer more fruitful. And so this concept of 148 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: aridity which is written about, I mean aridity is from 149 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: the desert fathers mothers, the language so that it's seventeen 150 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: hundred years older. More So, I just hadn't been exposed 151 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: to them that this could actually be not just that 152 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't doing something wrong, but this is a part 153 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: of the Christian life that is an important way to 154 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: grow an important part of maturity, a way that we 155 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: need to something we actually need to lean into because 156 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 1: it is part of disciples. This I had no idea, 157 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: This was totally new. This was a totally new idea 158 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: to me. So part of why I did this is 159 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: for people like me. I mean, like for I kind 160 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: of wrote this book for me three years ago to 161 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 1: be like, what did I need to hear? And I 162 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: needed to be told this is normal part of the 163 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: Christian life that you're in, and not just normal, but 164 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: like good, like that it doesn't feel good. I'm not 165 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it feels good, but that it is. 166 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: There's there are things that you have to learn here 167 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: that you can only learn here in this. 168 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 2: State, and that is something that you can only learn 169 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: by experience. People can say that to you, but but 170 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 2: the beauty and the depth of what actually happens you 171 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: have you have to experience to understand that. I mean, 172 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: I'm older, I've got some years on you, and so 173 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 2: I've had a few dark nights over the course of 174 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: my decades, and I still remember what midlife was like. 175 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: And I had a mentor at the time that basically 176 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: said midlife is when your car runs out of gas 177 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: and then you find that it doesn't run on gas anymore. 178 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: Hmm. 179 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: You don't know what you don't know what it runs on, 180 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: but somehow you're going to figure it out. And so 181 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 2: that sensation of being out of control, of thinking you 182 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: knew how everything worked, but it doesn't work that way, 183 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: and the sort of the discombobulation of that is troubling 184 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 2: at best. But I have found, as you've just shared, 185 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 2: and so of you and many of our listeners, that 186 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 2: it is those dry, maybe quiet, boggy, desert y, whatever 187 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 2: label you want to put on it, it's those patches 188 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 2: that really do something deeper and richer than if we 189 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: had our you know, just our full cognitive mind intact. 190 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, that's right what you said about 191 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: the car. I've loved that metaphor. That would have been 192 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: helpful to put in the book. There's so much in 193 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: these interviews. I'm like, man, I wish I would have 194 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: had this before I route it. But that I talked 195 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: about Stanley Harrows having this idea of learning how to 196 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: go on where we when we do not know where 197 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: we are, and I think that is this middle section, 198 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: is you don't know quite where you are. You don't 199 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: know what the car runs up, but you have to 200 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: learn how to go on. And that's that's not just survival. 201 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: I think that there's like this deep invitation to that, 202 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: to something new and something different, but it it feels 203 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: so disorienting, and particularly if you've been given a version 204 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: of faith that's sort of like you believe the right things, 205 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: you do the right practices, and then you have a 206 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: great experience with God or life will go well for you, 207 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: or you'll know where you are, and then you get 208 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: there and you're like, wait, but I am I do 209 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: believe and I am praying, and why does this feel 210 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: like it's not working now? And so I ad a 211 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 1: spiritual director in the middle of this sort of season 212 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: of my own life that would say things. I would 213 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: say things like I don't know where I am. I 214 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: feel lost, and she would say, okay, well, maybe just 215 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 1: be lost for a little while, or maybe just don't 216 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: know where you are for a while, and I, well, 217 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 1: I don't know that anything's happening, and she would say, okay, well, 218 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: maybe just not know if anything's happening. And this drove 219 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: me nuts. This drove me crazy because that is not 220 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: what I wanted. I wanted to be like, no, no, no, 221 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: tell me how to not be lost, tell me how 222 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: to be film, tell me what the car. I will 223 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 1: put whatever you tell me to in this car. Just 224 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: tell me the answer and I'll do it. And I 225 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: certainly don't want to just not know if something is happening. 226 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's terrible, and but I mean, now with 227 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: some time, I think she was saying, yeah, just lean 228 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: into exactly where you are, don't try to get out 229 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: of it, don't try to solve it. And for people 230 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: like me who like to feel like we have some 231 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: level of control over our spiritual lives, that just drives 232 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: me nuts. I mean, it's just so hard. 233 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 2: So for sure, Oh my goodness, I find myself saying 234 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: that often to people these days as well as a 235 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: spiritual director. The image I like to use for staying 236 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: with cars and moving around in paths and stuff is, 237 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: you know, it's sort of like being at the fork 238 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: in the road where you see the path behind you 239 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 2: and there's maybe there's some options out there, but you 240 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: don't know where to go, and talk about how that 241 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 2: spot right there before you go wherever's next, is actually 242 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: a valid place to be it's the same way of saying, 243 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: what your spiritual drict what if this is a place? 244 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: And I think that's a really important conversation. That's why 245 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: I love your books so much, as you're saying, yes, 246 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: this is a place, it's valid, it's real. It feels 247 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: like a wilderness, but good fruit can be borne. And 248 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: there's many many who've come before us who have lived 249 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:25,560 Speaker 2: in and have so much wisdom about what can happen 250 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: in that space and so but again it's very not 251 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: because I came up through the regular conservative emagelical stream 252 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: as well, and so I have had all those tendencies 253 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 2: you know of wanting things to be fast and understandable 254 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: and controllable and manageable, all of those things. But the 255 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: place I find myself these days is just the I'm 256 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: not saying it's perfect, but I find myself the most 257 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: open handed I've ever been, only because I've lived long 258 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: enough to see how things just don't always go way 259 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: you want them to go. And somehow I've made it 260 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: through every season, every patch bye bye. And there's a 261 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: simplicity here of whatever it means to hold on to 262 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: my best understanding of what God is doing at the 263 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: time in my life, and so it's probably easier at 264 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: this point to look back and go, oh, well, you 265 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: got to do is hang in there, right, and it's 266 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 2: gonna pass, and you're gonna if there's me so much 267 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: good fruit afterwards. But it is it is good to 268 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: just sit with people in the middle and say, what 269 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: if this is a place you know. 270 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And we can't really look back on our 271 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: lives at the moment, like we can't, like I would 272 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: like to make up a story of what this place is. 273 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: I would like to say, you know, ten years from now, 274 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to look back and be like, look at 275 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 1: all that that's just doing. But I don't know that's 276 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: like faith that that is. I have no idea, but 277 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: it helps me that I can look back on other 278 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 1: people's lives. Meaning this is why I feel like learning 279 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: from Christians who went before me are helpful. I mean, 280 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: first of all, like people like like you, I mean 281 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: you just told me that story of there were times 282 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: I was at this place and it felt like nothing's happening. God, 283 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: I can look back. But also like in these desert, 284 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: fathers and mothers just expected the faith to take I mean, 285 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: they would pray for things for decades and decades and 286 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: decades they would they struggled with anger for like so 287 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: long and and just kept struggling, or that you know 288 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: they would, and so to look back. And I mean 289 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: even just like I talk about Teresa Book and Saint Teresa, 290 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: her struggle with doubt, you know, and now we know 291 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: the end, you know, we know that before right before 292 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: she died, literally kind of on her death edge, she 293 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: had this experience of God, but she didn't know that. 294 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the pain. One of 295 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: the difficult things about doubt or about oridity is that 296 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: you never you never know how long it lasts. It's 297 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: one of the hard the hard things that requires trust 298 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:19,639 Speaker 1: and patience is you just you don't know how the 299 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: story's going to unfold. 300 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 2: That is the hardest part, the not knowing and then 301 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 2: probably believing that it's going to take far longer than 302 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 2: I want. Will continue after the break. So you use 303 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 2: some beautiful, beautiful images for all of your chapter titles, 304 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: which I love. And one of the phrases I like 305 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: is staying in your cell. So I wonder if maybe 306 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 2: you would unpack what does that mean? Stay on your cell? 307 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say it's kind of the key inside 308 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: the book, like the key thing I want people to 309 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: be thinking about, although the book unfold, because I don't 310 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: think it's enough just to stay in your cell. I 311 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 1: think it matters how and why, just kind of the 312 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: rest of the book. But I think the idea of 313 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: stay in yoursel with the desert mothers and fathers, who 314 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: a lot of the teaching of the book is kind 315 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: of framed around. They are sayings, but they would constantly 316 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: tell each other to stay in the cell. I mean, 317 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: it was just this off. As you read through their writings, 318 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: you hear it again and again times of weariness, times 319 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: when prayer felt difficult, times of when they would struggle 320 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: with their own temptation, and monks were attempted to leave 321 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: their cell for all kinds of reasons. One was, oh, 322 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,640 Speaker 1: I should say, for people like a cell was their 323 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: room or their hut or their cave where they lived, 324 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: so it was the place of prayer but also the 325 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: place of work and life. So it represents this whole 326 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: really holistic idea of you stay in your cell means 327 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: to keep it prayer, but it also means to keep 328 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: in the place you're in and the relationships you're in 329 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: in the habits and rhythms. You're in both in prayer 330 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: but also in things like work or really maintenance of 331 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: your life. And so it's a little it's like a 332 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: and at the end that there's a call to the 333 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: vowels that you have to the life life you have 334 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: as a monk. So it's bigger than sort of the 335 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: evangelical like just keep having your wiite. It's a bigger 336 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: kind of ballistic vision stability. And so monks, fathers and 337 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: mothers would say this to each other because monks were 338 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,199 Speaker 1: often tempted. I mean they would leave their cell because 339 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: they were bored and they were looking for distraction, looking 340 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: for something outside of their cell, or because they were 341 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: really I just read this morning a story of a 342 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: monk that was just discouraged over his sin and how 343 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,440 Speaker 1: long he had struggled with lust and how he couldn't 344 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: get free from it, and so he left his cell 345 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 1: because he was like, I'm not good enough. I can't 346 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: do this, I'm not good enough for it to be 347 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: a monk. And a elder monk ran into him and said, 348 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: you're this is you are not made whole by your efforts, 349 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 1: but by God's mercy, stay in your cell, meaning go back, 350 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: like just continue to struggle, but know that like it's 351 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: God's mercy that makes you whole. And so so sometimes 352 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: it was guilt, or sometimes it was distraction, or sometimes 353 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: it was it was what would be translated or the 354 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: word is a sadia just what's translated is kind of 355 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: distaste for spiritual things, a want, a longing for ease. 356 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: There were all kinds of things that tempted monks to 357 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: leave their cell, even sometimes spiritual things like the idea 358 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 1: of like, oh if I was elsewhere, God would use 359 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: me more, if I was elsewhere, I would be more holy. 360 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: And they constantly called each other to remain, to stay, 361 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: to stay exactly in the place there it that's what 362 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: the chapters about. Yeah, it's so good. 363 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: I think what you just said is worth highlighting that 364 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: it was not his effort at God's mercy. And I 365 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 2: think I get that backwards a lot. I think it's 366 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 2: something I have to do or need to do or 367 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: must do that will help this change. But what you're 368 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: talking about is he was sent back to a cell 369 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 2: to receive something in the midst of what he was 370 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 2: actually experiencing, instead of trying to get rid of it, 371 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 2: which I understand he probably wants to stop being lustful whatever, 372 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 2: But do you know what I'm saying, Like there's something 373 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 2: to be received and not just this clenched fist activity 374 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: on my part. 375 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, yeah, And it's interesting it was Yeah, it wasn't, 376 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: and this story is not in the book. I wish 377 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: I would have put it in it sort of, but uh, 378 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: it wasn't. You know, it's mercy, so go do whatever 379 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: you want. I mean, it was this mercy. So then 380 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: he's calling him back to his life, you know, to 381 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 1: his vells, to saying that this is not on you too. 382 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's essentially like you're right, you're not good 383 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: enough to be a monk. But that's not the point. 384 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: The point is God's mercy and grace, and so go 385 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: back and live the life all too. And so there's 386 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: this freedom that comes with an invitation, an invitation to stay, 387 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: which is beautiful. 388 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: So good those sort of that's sort of the value 389 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: stability the benedictines. 390 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, explicitly. I mean Benedict read these early fathers and 391 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: mothers and made his rule based really inspired by them, 392 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 1: and so that idea of staying in your cell became 393 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: the Benedictine idea of stability, which monks Benedictine monks now 394 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: still take the valve stability, but they and they also 395 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: talk about stability of the heart, stability us cortous, the 396 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: sort of deeply rooted stability that keeps us from just 397 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: sort of chasing the latest spiritual bad or from running after, 398 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: you know, being tossed around by our emotions or by 399 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: the trend, but really being rooted deeply in our hearts, 400 00:24:55,160 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: in who Jesus is and who we are called. Which 401 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: I think that stabilitus cort is. I think that's what 402 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: is formed in the middle. I think that's what comes 403 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: when things feel, when things are no longer new. I 404 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: think that that's when we learned to stay, we learned 405 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: to remain. 406 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's a depth of Another word that's coming 407 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: to mind is just the word sturdy. There's like a solidness, 408 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 2: a sturdiness to your heart and your soul. And again 409 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 2: that happens as a fruit of staying in the time. 410 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 2: Because if I were to describe anything that happened to 411 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: me after what appeared to me to be a dark 412 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 2: knight or wilderness, I would I could only say that 413 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 2: it seemed like it just happened, which to me means 414 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 2: it's the thing that changed to me that became either 415 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: more natural or something that fell off that I needed 416 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 2: to let go of. I feel like it was more 417 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 2: of a fruit of hanging in there as opposed to 418 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: me trying to do something. And that's why I always 419 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: say it is totally a gift because there will be 420 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 2: fruit born. I don't know what it is or what 421 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: it will look like for you, but God's always up 422 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 2: to something that leads to goodness in the end, and 423 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 2: not put in a Pollyanna way, but for real. 424 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't get super into this in the book, 425 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: but I think a good illustration of what you're saying 426 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: is is the life of Jesus, Like he has this 427 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,720 Speaker 1: very beginning of his public ministry, like first thing, this 428 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: is the newness, the conversion, the excitement that I mean, 429 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,959 Speaker 1: Jesus wasn't converted obviously, but metaphorically it's the start right 430 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:42,119 Speaker 1: at his baptism and he's announced the air. You know, 431 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 1: we get this voice, this is my beloved son, and 432 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: who I am well pleased. The spirit descends like a 433 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 1: dove like super exciting, fruitful time and then he does 434 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: not go straight into his public ministry of healing or 435 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: work or preaching. He goes to the So it's this weird. 436 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: I mean, nobody would write a play like this. You 437 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: would never have this big moment. And then so a 438 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: lot of nothing, like not a lot of nothing happening. 439 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: There's he's out there, it's a long time, he's tempted 440 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: by the devil. There's no preaching happening. It feels like 441 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: what's going on. But theologically it was significant, of course, 442 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: because it's it is pointing back to Israel and they're 443 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: wandering in the desert. But what you're saying is also true, 444 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: is it's this. I mean, he leaves the desert and 445 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: seemingly all of these things just happen right in his life. 446 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 1: But that's all preparation. There's deep work that was happening 447 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: in the spiritual realm and presumably in Jesus' own life. 448 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously his reason is different than ours, being 449 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: sinless in God. But that was a time of that 450 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: time was not insignificant. That time was necessary for what 451 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: came next. But when you're actually in the middle of 452 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: a desert in your own life, it feels like what 453 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: the heck is happening. It feels like what's going on? 454 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 1: And you it's what we were saying, you don't know 455 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: what's next? 456 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: Right, So good? I want to I want to pivot 457 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 2: to there's a story in there that I love because 458 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: I have my own version of this. You have a 459 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: nursing mother's story, yes, you. 460 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: I don't think it's so creol about that. 461 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 2: Oh well, because I have my own nursing mother's story. 462 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: I'm like, I've never seen anybody else talk about this 463 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 2: meeting God as a nursing mother, and so I would love. 464 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 2: I was struck by it. So I was wondering if 465 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: you could give us just a snippet of that and 466 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: what that meant for you at that time. 467 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I talk about I tell the story of 468 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: nursing my oldest daughter and weaning her when she was 469 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: about two years old, and uh, the story I tell 470 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: is just that she was crying and crying and it 471 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: was really difficult. I don't I don't know if listeners 472 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: have weaned a kid a child, And people have very 473 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: strong opinions about this. Some people think that doing this 474 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 1: is really bad for your kid, which you know, we 475 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: pay for her therapy so, or we will pay for 476 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: her therapy when she needs it. But so, but I am. 477 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: We were weaning her because I was pregnant again, my second, 478 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: and she was crying, and eventually I just couldn't. I 479 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: couldn't just leave her in there to cry. I couldn't 480 00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: do the cry at don't things. So I put on 481 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: turtleneck so you couldn't. She could not get the goods 482 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: she was seeking easily, and I just went and held her, 483 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: and after just a very brief time, a minute or so, 484 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,239 Speaker 1: she just quieted down and just crawled up next to 485 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: me and just sat with me. And I wasn't nursing 486 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: her anymore. She just and I tell the story. I walk. 487 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,239 Speaker 1: I eventually put her down, he fell asleep. I go 488 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: back and crawl in bed with my husband, who whispers 489 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 1: to me in the dark because he's awake. Now I 490 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: mean a baby screaming like everybody was awake. But he said, 491 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: did you cave, meaning like, did I just nurse her? 492 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: Because he had heard it just go silent, and I 493 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: said no, she didn't want the milk, She just wanted me. 494 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: And he was like, oh, that's it's extreme, that's really beautiful. 495 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: And I I used that as a metaphor in the 496 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: book because John of the Cross talked about setting asigh. 497 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: I mean essentially that God nurses us and at some 498 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 1: point he sets aside. I can't remember, we set aside 499 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: our swaddling clothes. I think he says, and he's using 500 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 1: this metaphor of God seemingly withdrawing as we as we 501 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: move from like infant to weaning. And of course he 502 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: draws this from the Psalms, with the psalm about we 503 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: come to God as a weaned child. And I say 504 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: in the book, I always resisted the metaphor. I didn't 505 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: understand it. I'm like, don't we come to God like 506 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: a nursing child? Why do we come to God like 507 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: a weaned child? My heart is why it had like 508 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: a weaned child in your presence? Is the like? But 509 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: we rely on God for all things. It feels like, 510 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: isn't a baby more reliant on their mom when they're nursing? 511 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: Don't we come to God for nourishment? I didn't understand 512 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: the weaned part, and it was I but I talk 513 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: about in that moment there was something that shifted in 514 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:23,959 Speaker 1: my relationship with my daughter that it was was no 515 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: longer an instrumental relationship or a relationship of exchange or something. 516 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 1: She didn't need me for what I could give her. 517 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: She was sufficient in her nutritional intake. She wanted me, 518 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: she wanted she. It was just my presence that she right. 519 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: And and so I talk about coming to God for 520 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: God's own sake, for God's presence as opposed to what 521 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: God can give us. And that is kind of the 522 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: shift that happens in aridity, instead of coming to God 523 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: for particular spiritual experience or for insight or to answer 524 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: to address a problem we have, but to come to 525 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: God for the sake of God. So that's why I 526 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 1: told the. 527 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that so good. I think it's important 528 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 2: for us to have different kinds of metaphors like that, 529 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 2: because you don't always get to hear the vantage point 530 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 2: of a nursing mother. 531 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have used that as a cert I've talked 532 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: about nursing in a sermon before, and I always make 533 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: the same joke, which is that if I can sit 534 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: through football metaphors, you can sit through them or something. 535 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: For sure. 536 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 2: You can make the same joke later on about menopause. Hey, 537 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: I can listen through that. You guys can talk about 538 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 2: menopause for five minutes. 539 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: Okay, you know, I've never heard of menopause metaphor and 540 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: a sermon. Maybe maybe that's we need to start doing 541 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: more of that. Oh yeah, what do you want to share? 542 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have to, it's your podcast, but 543 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: you what is your nursing mother story that you said? 544 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 2: I don't know if I might have shared this on 545 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: the podcast years ago, but yes, I just shared it recently. 546 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: I spoke for a mom co group. It used to 547 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 2: be mops, you know, and so I pull out this 548 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: this story every time because it's just meet somewhere where 549 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 2: they are. So yeah, very similar. When I had a 550 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: toddler and a nursing baby one time, it was back 551 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 2: I always joke about how it was before phones, you know. 552 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: So all I did was nurse. I went to my bedroom, 553 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 2: I had a rocking chair, I had no distraction. I 554 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 2: literally just nursed my baby because this was in the nineties, 555 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 2: before we had all the gadgets. And I would look 556 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 2: at his face and I'm holding him, and it was 557 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 2: in that place where you have a toddler and a 558 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: newborn and you're just trying to figure out how to 559 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: get through the day, and any good girl Christian to 560 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,439 Speaker 2: do list, check off list that I had was out 561 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 2: the window for me at that time. And so because 562 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 2: I was still attached to that idea of there's things 563 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: you have to do to stay a good Christian, but 564 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 2: I wasn't unable to keep up with that, So that 565 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 2: was sort of a hovering thing. And the reason I 566 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 2: share that is because I'm nursing my son, I'm looking 567 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 2: down at his sweet little face and just having that 568 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 2: nurturing sensation, and all of a sudden, I feel I 569 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 2: felt like the Holy Spirit was talking to me saying, 570 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 2: you know, Jim, this is how I feel about you 571 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: that I like in the moment when I'm having this 572 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 2: very tender sensation of holding my child right here and 573 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 2: looking in his sweet little face, this is how I 574 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 2: feel about you, right And along with it came another couple, 575 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 2: another couple of words that really changed my connection to 576 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 2: God at the time, and it was these words, I 577 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 2: guess this is forwards. You know this counts, And that 578 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 2: was a life changing I was thirty one at the time, 579 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 2: I remember because that's how old I was when my 580 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 2: second son was born, and it changed my connection with 581 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 2: God is like you said, it's not transactional anymore. It's 582 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,759 Speaker 2: like there's multiple ways that God wants to let me 583 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 2: know that He is with me, that I'm connected to him, 584 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 2: and there's multiple ways for that to manifest itself other 585 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: than the very short list that I had of what counted. 586 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: And so again not to say we don't do spiritual practice. 587 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,799 Speaker 2: Of course we do. I'm a spiritual director. I tell 588 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 2: people this all the time. But it was it was 589 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: like God was opening me up when I was young 590 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 2: to just say there's so many ways that we could 591 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 2: connect them. And my heart was just so open in 592 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,959 Speaker 2: that moment, and God wanted to affirm that he saw 593 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 2: me and that he felt affection for me, and that 594 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 2: this connection I had with my son was very similar 595 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: to what we had and that it counted. And so 596 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,280 Speaker 2: I still tell that story because it affected me deeply. 597 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 2: It's like thirty years ago and I just haven't ever 598 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 2: heard anyone else share a nursing mother story. So I 599 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 2: was very intrigued when I saw it. 600 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: Yay, that's great, Yeah it's right there. Second chapter yeah, 601 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:49,959 Speaker 1: so so good. 602 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 2: So it's always fun to share nursing mother. So I 603 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 2: saw all the men can tune back in. Now, that's 604 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 2: all right. 605 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: I wanted to know it's there in the psalm. It 606 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 1: feels like, you guys can't get any more male than 607 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: the psawmist and he he put it in there so like. 608 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 2: A weaned child. 609 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 610 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: So anyway, I just think it's good. It is good 611 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 2: to have that sort of feminine nurturing aspect of God 612 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 2: brought fourth everyone. 613 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. 614 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 2: So on that note, though, let's turn for a minute 615 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: here to something different, which the other one was about 616 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 2: the cell. One of your other titles was Relaxed the Bow, 617 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 2: and I love that story too. So not by the way, 618 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 2: she's not giving away everything that's in the book, but 619 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 2: I love that story so much again because we're unhurried living, 620 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 2: and so that story was one brand for us because 621 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 2: we talked to. 622 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:49,760 Speaker 1: That is that is exactly true. So this is unhurt 623 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: like the fourth century. It might be fifth, but I mean, 624 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 1: isn't that amazing? It's amazing, It is so amazing living. 625 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,400 Speaker 1: Is not that this is not a new trend. Christians 626 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: have been talking about us for fifteen hundred years. Yeah, 627 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: for sure. 628 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 2: Oh, it goes all the way back. All the different 629 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 2: authors through all the centuries have had different ways where 630 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 2: they thought that they were living in this really busy, 631 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 2: hurried time and we need to just slow down. And 632 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 2: I'm like you people don't have phones. 633 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: What are you talking about? You have no idea? 634 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 2: So I would love it if you could tell that story, 635 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 2: if you can remember it. 636 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, read it. 637 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 2: When in regards to unheard leadership, I think I did. 638 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 2: I I have a little snippet of it here. If 639 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 2: you want me to read the quote, does that help? Sure? 640 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? 641 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,880 Speaker 2: And then maybe I'm and then talk about that. So anyway, 642 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 2: it's in her chapter Relaxed the Bow, and she's talking 643 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 2: about Saint Anthony, and he came upon a hunter was 644 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,720 Speaker 2: concerned because he found Anthony just hanging out with his brothers. 645 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,760 Speaker 2: They were just hanging out whatever them meant. So Anthony 646 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,239 Speaker 2: asked the hunter to pull out his bow and to 647 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 2: keep drawing it further and further and further, and I'll 648 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 2: drop for and further. And then the hunter finally said, 649 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: if I draw it too far, the bow will snap. 650 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: And then Anthony replied, so it is with God's work. 651 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 2: If we always go to excess, the brothers quickly become exhausted. 652 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 2: It is sometimes best not to be rigid. I thought 653 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: that was so good, such a good lesson. So maybe 654 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 2: talk about that for a minute. 655 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I So. The the problem with talking 656 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,840 Speaker 1: about desert fathers and mothers is that they do seem 657 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: at times, I mean, they don't just see they are 658 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 1: at times extreme. I mean, these people fasted for weeks 659 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: and weeks, They're really intense. At times, it does seem 660 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: a little works righteousness y or I mean the theological 661 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: word would be like Blajian. So people either know what 662 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,360 Speaker 1: that means or don't. I won't get into it, but 663 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: I think and I think that's there's there's some of 664 00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: that that does hit, and there's some of that that 665 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:03,480 Speaker 1: is re. What has been interesting to me in reading 666 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: them is there's other places and people where grace just 667 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: really really shines through pretty clearly. I mean, the thing 668 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: I read this morning about this monk feeling like I'm 669 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: still struggling and I'm not good enough, and and this 670 00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:27,359 Speaker 1: this older monk, I think it's Paulinis. I think says, hey, 671 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: I'm really old and I am more spiritually advanced than you, 672 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: and I still struggle with this, and God, it is 673 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: not your efforts. It is God's mercy, So stay in yourself, 674 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: go back, You're like, And so there is this these 675 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: moments where it's just this, there's there's so much grace 676 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: and there's so much They constantly talk about not judging others. 677 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: They constantly talk about how the worst are sins, we 678 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: don't even really see. The things that are most disorted 679 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,840 Speaker 1: in our life are often we're the most blind to. 680 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: And so it does come down to God's findness and 681 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: mercy to us. So there are I mean, these these 682 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: people were severe at times, but there's all this these 683 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: moments of grace, and this is one of them where this, 684 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: I mean, Anthony was so intense. He was like literally 685 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: battling demons. Like that's how at least the you know, 686 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: it talks about him fighting with demons and fasting and 687 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,840 Speaker 1: praying and he went out and lived in the desert, 688 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: and then he has this moment where he's like, yeah, 689 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: don't be rigid, just like this is so interesting that 690 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,160 Speaker 1: they were able to be the language I use in 691 00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,400 Speaker 1: the book is able to be wholehearted but lighthearted at 692 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: the same time. And I, I this feels like some 693 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 1: kind of spiritual jiu jitsu that I'm not up to 694 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: yet that I'm like wanting to learn of, like how 695 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: do you be completely wholehearted and divided in your pursuit 696 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: of God? And then say, yeah, but relax and it's 697 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,320 Speaker 1: not up to you. And they held both of those 698 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: and I think it's a bit of an emotional paradox 699 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: to live in that. But there's you to see that 700 00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 1: over and over again, these moments of that, and I 701 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: find that I find it really encouraging, and I even 702 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: love that he was like, the brothers will get exhausted, 703 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: like this is too. They need levity, they need rest, 704 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:41,360 Speaker 1: they need relaxation. I think the language that it's this 705 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: story actually said, I use the language of hanging out. 706 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: I think the story said something of just sitting with 707 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,600 Speaker 1: the brothers talking in a relaxed way. I mean they 708 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: were like shooting the bowl. Basically, they were chilling out. 709 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 1: They were it was they were just hanging out. And so, 710 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, and we hear it's just crazy because all 711 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: the stories you hear about Anthony are these like you know, 712 00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: he's like seeing visions angels, he's talking demons, he's he's fasting. 713 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: He you know, is there's like visions, he's having pillars 714 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: of light, in the desert like crazy stuff. And I 715 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,640 Speaker 1: love the idea of him. But he also apparently just 716 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:32,359 Speaker 1: sat around and hung out sometimes. It's great. We just 717 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: don't hear enough about that with the saints, you know, 718 00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:37,160 Speaker 1: just like he just was chilling. 719 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,359 Speaker 2: So yeah, that makes sense though, right, because everybody has 720 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 2: an actual life that they're living every single day, there 721 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 2: can't be something amazing happening day. 722 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: He saw that as spiritually important too. I mean he 723 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 1: saw it as a way of loving his fellow brothers 724 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:05,560 Speaker 1: and a way of I mean, he was instructing the 725 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: Hunter to not bifurcate life into spiritual activities and spiritual activities, 726 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: but to see all of this, to see rest as 727 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: part of the spiritual life. 728 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,000 Speaker 2: I'd like to end kind of where you end near 729 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 2: the end of the book, we're talking about desert plants. 730 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 2: I also like that story. Can you sort of end 731 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 2: us here? What's I think? You're talking about the tenacity 732 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 2: of a desert plant. How might that be encouragement to us? 733 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? I talk at the end about adaptations of plants 734 00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,919 Speaker 1: to survive in the desert, and they all feel it's 735 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,680 Speaker 1: very obvious. I am very addicted to metaphor. I love metaphors. 736 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 1: This book has a lot of them, but it feels 737 00:44:56,840 --> 00:45:02,080 Speaker 1: like all of these natural adaptations have spiritual metaphors to them. 738 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,959 Speaker 1: These plants that survive in really harsh conditions without rain, 739 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: they survive in all different ways. Some of them are 740 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: able to they have the ability to be essentially wick 741 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: moisture from the air, So any bit of moisture they 742 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: also save things, like if they get rain, they will 743 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: they'll save it for a long long time and so 744 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 1: it will sustain. You see this with cactuses. So it's 745 00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: I talk about it as this ability to kind of 746 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: draw and hold on to any goodness that you experience, 747 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:48,880 Speaker 1: any insight into God, that you kind of learn to 748 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: take it all in uh and hold it. And then 749 00:45:54,719 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: there's other plants that seem to dye, resurrection plants they're 750 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: sometimes called. They go into such deep dormancy that they 751 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 1: seem to die, but then any small amount of just 752 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: a trickle of water and they'll they'll kind of burst 753 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 1: back into life. And botanists have seen this is decades. 754 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,439 Speaker 1: I mean they've gone they've gone decades where it seemed 755 00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,160 Speaker 1: like nothing was happening, and then they're totally alive again. 756 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: And so that they're like intensely resilient. And and then 757 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:38,680 Speaker 1: I talk about there are freeze I think the Joshua tree, 758 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: maybe one of Akesha trees, I can't remember. But they go, 759 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,479 Speaker 1: they go, their roots go deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, 760 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 1: some some as much as one hundred feet, and they'll 761 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:52,560 Speaker 1: just keep growing deeper the dryer it is, until they 762 00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 1: find their source. And so I talk about these in 763 00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: different ways. I talk about wanting to take it every 764 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: bit of goodness. I talk about wanting to be able 765 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,360 Speaker 1: to be dormant. But that does not mean that you're dead. 766 00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,160 Speaker 1: That these plants don't, the resurrection plants, they're not dead. 767 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,200 Speaker 1: They're just in this they're in this place of dormancy. 768 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:19,800 Speaker 1: And then of course the rooted example of going deeper 769 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: and deeper and deeper. It is actually only in aridity 770 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:31,480 Speaker 1: that plants do deep the roots and go down deep. 771 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: And so I talk about each one is kind of 772 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:38,239 Speaker 1: a metaphor for what I want in my Christian my 773 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:43,440 Speaker 1: spiritual life. I want to grow in tenacity. 774 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 2: I love your metaphors. I think they're very helpful because 775 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:54,879 Speaker 2: there are images that we can understand and and make 776 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,080 Speaker 2: use of in our life to help us understand some 777 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,799 Speaker 2: things that might be a little complicated to talk about. Yeah, 778 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 2: I can understand, you know, Yeah, I am. 779 00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,080 Speaker 1: I'm convinced that we need the right metaphors, that we 780 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: need them as much as food and water. And I'm 781 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 1: I don't publish poetry. I have written some, but it 782 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:16,439 Speaker 1: is unpublished. But I there is that the poetic part 783 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,719 Speaker 1: of me that is just really on the search for 784 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,560 Speaker 1: a good metaphor. Which is partly why these desert mothers 785 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,160 Speaker 1: and fathers they almost they never say something directly. They 786 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 1: speak in metaphor all the time. They speak in object 787 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 1: lessons all the time. I think it's partly why I 788 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: could when I was in such a spiritually kind of 789 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,239 Speaker 1: deserts place, I was really drawn to them. Is they 790 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,000 Speaker 1: never give you the answers, but they give you a 791 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: load of metaphors. They give tons of metaphors. 792 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 2: I love it, love a good metaphor. Well, you need 793 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 2: to get Titi's book. I forgot to bring it over here, Present, 794 00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 2: What Brows, What Grows, and wary Lands Love the chapter 795 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:08,800 Speaker 2: titles stay in your cell, wait in the womb, relax 796 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:12,919 Speaker 2: the bow, let the silt settle, Brace the wall, seat, 797 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 2: They're all metaphors and she unpacks it lovely inside. So 798 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 2: I'm glad you said, yeshsh. Thanks for having this conversation 799 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 2: with me. 800 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:22,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me. 801 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:27,759 Speaker 2: Right, let me, let me press stop and I think 802 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:29,840 Speaker 2: you have to leave. Thank you for joining me on 803 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 2: the unhead Living podcast. You can download free resources and 804 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 2: learn more about us at Unhurried Living dot com, and 805 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 2: please subscribe and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. 806 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,520 Speaker 2: We'd also like to thank our partner Life Audio. Check 807 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,880 Speaker 2: out their other faith centered podcasts at lifeaudio dot com. 808 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,879 Speaker 2: Blessings to you as you make your way