1 00:00:08,237 --> 00:00:13,177 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Find inspiration as close as your phone. 2 00:00:13,437 --> 00:00:16,677 Speaker 2: Download the Jesus Calling app and get started today for free. 3 00:00:17,137 --> 00:00:19,316 Speaker 2: Look for the Jesus Calling app in both the Apple 4 00:00:19,557 --> 00:00:30,147 Speaker 2: and Google Play stores. Hey, Nathan, welcome to the show. 5 00:00:31,007 --> 00:00:33,086 Speaker 3: Well, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me. 6 00:00:33,687 --> 00:00:35,927 Speaker 2: Well, I have to say the title of your latest 7 00:00:36,007 --> 00:00:40,026 Speaker 2: book is a little intriguing. Would you tell us about 8 00:00:40,067 --> 00:00:42,906 Speaker 2: the moment that sort of led up to you writing 9 00:00:42,967 --> 00:00:44,906 Speaker 2: this book? Yeah. 10 00:00:45,086 --> 00:00:47,526 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I spent a lot of my life 11 00:00:47,827 --> 00:00:49,927 Speaker 3: kind of assuming I was the best, to be honest. 12 00:00:50,367 --> 00:00:52,627 Speaker 3: You know, I came from a good family. I was 13 00:00:52,667 --> 00:00:56,386 Speaker 3: a pastor's kid. My mom was a writer. And even 14 00:00:56,427 --> 00:00:58,617 Speaker 3: as I grew up, I was in church and youth group, 15 00:00:58,697 --> 00:01:01,357 Speaker 3: and I knew which rules to follow. And I knew 16 00:01:01,457 --> 00:01:05,497 Speaker 3: how to look like I was doing the right thing. 17 00:01:05,517 --> 00:01:08,487 Speaker 3: As I became an adult, all of a sudden, I 18 00:01:08,527 --> 00:01:11,167 Speaker 3: started having these moments where I realized there's these kind 19 00:01:11,207 --> 00:01:13,807 Speaker 3: of cracks in who I was and this kind of 20 00:01:13,927 --> 00:01:15,937 Speaker 3: vision I had of who I was of the best. 21 00:01:16,437 --> 00:01:19,017 Speaker 3: And suddenly I saw myself and the cracks and the 22 00:01:19,057 --> 00:01:21,437 Speaker 3: darknesses that were down there. And all of a sudden 23 00:01:21,457 --> 00:01:24,097 Speaker 3: I realized I might not be as good as I thought. 24 00:01:24,697 --> 00:01:27,477 Speaker 3: I might have some more darkness and fracture deep down 25 00:01:27,897 --> 00:01:29,947 Speaker 3: that I had never really paid attention to. And, and, 26 00:01:30,387 --> 00:01:32,827 Speaker 3: Kind of thinking through that and then looking out in 27 00:01:32,867 --> 00:01:35,067 Speaker 3: culture and seeing how so much of culture has gotten 28 00:01:35,507 --> 00:01:38,357 Speaker 3: really good at what I was good at too, which 29 00:01:38,417 --> 00:01:40,297 Speaker 3: is we kind of think we're the best. Our group, 30 00:01:40,757 --> 00:01:44,997 Speaker 3: our tribe, our people, ourselves, our belief system, we're the best. 31 00:01:45,057 --> 00:01:47,457 Speaker 3: And all the brokenness in the world is out there 32 00:01:47,537 --> 00:01:49,857 Speaker 3: over with them. And as I looked at Jesus and 33 00:01:49,897 --> 00:01:52,817 Speaker 3: how he interacted with people, what I found was every 34 00:01:52,837 --> 00:01:56,487 Speaker 3: interaction he had with someone was helping them recognize their 35 00:01:56,727 --> 00:02:00,597 Speaker 3: own faults, their own flaws, their own brokennesses. not to 36 00:02:00,637 --> 00:02:04,157 Speaker 3: condemn them or push them down, but ultimately to help 37 00:02:04,217 --> 00:02:06,317 Speaker 3: them heal. And that was something I found in my 38 00:02:06,417 --> 00:02:09,657 Speaker 3: own life and I've seen in culture, that when we 39 00:02:09,677 --> 00:02:13,867 Speaker 3: can actually acknowledge the darkness and fracture in our own 40 00:02:13,947 --> 00:02:17,767 Speaker 3: lives and admit, quote, like Paul did in scripture, I'm 41 00:02:17,827 --> 00:02:20,827 Speaker 3: the worst, that is the starting point to where we 42 00:02:20,847 --> 00:02:24,687 Speaker 3: can actually find healing and grace and redemption through God. 43 00:02:25,517 --> 00:02:28,057 Speaker 2: What is it about our culture that makes us so 44 00:02:28,137 --> 00:02:34,047 Speaker 2: obsessed with performance and perfection? And what are we missing 45 00:02:34,107 --> 00:02:35,767 Speaker 2: by only focusing on that? 46 00:02:36,847 --> 00:02:39,607 Speaker 3: Well, I think that a lot of it is fear. 47 00:02:39,767 --> 00:02:43,467 Speaker 3: And I think that much of our behavior that kind 48 00:02:43,487 --> 00:02:46,607 Speaker 3: of centers and circles around looking good and making sure 49 00:02:46,627 --> 00:02:50,077 Speaker 3: that we appear good and making sure we convince other people, 50 00:02:50,097 --> 00:02:52,777 Speaker 3: we're making sure we convince ourselves that we're good and 51 00:02:52,817 --> 00:02:55,847 Speaker 3: perfect and whole. is fear of being alone and fear 52 00:02:55,887 --> 00:02:58,947 Speaker 3: of being unloved. There's a fear that if we did 53 00:02:59,007 --> 00:03:01,587 Speaker 3: have something wrong with us, if we did have darkness 54 00:03:01,647 --> 00:03:04,717 Speaker 3: or brokenness, that we can't be loved and that we 55 00:03:04,757 --> 00:03:08,337 Speaker 3: will be alone and ousted and separated. And so the 56 00:03:08,477 --> 00:03:11,777 Speaker 3: way to fit into a group, to find yourself in 57 00:03:11,817 --> 00:03:14,417 Speaker 3: a place where you feel safe and accepted has been 58 00:03:14,437 --> 00:03:16,357 Speaker 3: kind of put on a mask. I'm a good person. 59 00:03:16,417 --> 00:03:19,287 Speaker 3: I look good. I sound good. And if anyone saw 60 00:03:19,307 --> 00:03:21,127 Speaker 3: what was beneath the mask, they wouldn't let me be here. 61 00:03:21,227 --> 00:03:23,747 Speaker 3: So I have to keep this mask going. And this 62 00:03:23,807 --> 00:03:26,067 Speaker 3: is a natural human thing. We all do it. We 63 00:03:26,307 --> 00:03:29,587 Speaker 3: all fear that we're not good enough, that we couldn't 64 00:03:29,627 --> 00:03:33,467 Speaker 3: be loved if we were actually fully seen. But real 65 00:03:33,567 --> 00:03:38,397 Speaker 3: health and real relationship and real wholeness comes from being 66 00:03:38,537 --> 00:03:42,877 Speaker 3: fully seen, even with our messy bits, and fully loved. 67 00:03:42,937 --> 00:03:45,707 Speaker 3: And that's what God's love can do for us. But 68 00:03:45,767 --> 00:03:47,787 Speaker 3: so many of us are so scared to be fully 69 00:03:47,867 --> 00:03:50,977 Speaker 3: loved and fully known or fully known by other people 70 00:03:50,997 --> 00:03:53,837 Speaker 3: because we fear that we won't be fully loved. And 71 00:03:54,617 --> 00:03:57,057 Speaker 3: I think that's a real difficult kind of thing to 72 00:03:57,097 --> 00:04:02,157 Speaker 3: traverse of how do I show myself and not lose 73 00:04:03,557 --> 00:04:05,957 Speaker 3: this love and this acceptance that I hope I have 74 00:04:06,017 --> 00:04:07,997 Speaker 3: because I'm so scared if I do show my messy 75 00:04:08,037 --> 00:04:09,577 Speaker 3: parts that I won't be. 76 00:04:10,037 --> 00:04:13,537 Speaker 2: People can't be themselves a lot of times. They have 77 00:04:13,617 --> 00:04:18,366 Speaker 2: to act something else. Acting becomes their life. If I'm 78 00:04:18,447 --> 00:04:20,607 Speaker 2: not this way all the time, I'm going to lose 79 00:04:20,687 --> 00:04:21,267 Speaker 2: my career. 80 00:04:21,866 --> 00:04:22,166 Speaker 3: Yeah. 81 00:04:22,366 --> 00:04:27,266 Speaker 2: I'm going to lose it. And so I think in Christianity, 82 00:04:27,306 --> 00:04:30,546 Speaker 2: we're often hit with that idea of we are the worst. 83 00:04:30,827 --> 00:04:34,986 Speaker 2: We're lowly sinners who deserve death, which really can do 84 00:04:35,046 --> 00:04:37,987 Speaker 2: a number on our brains if we don't remember that 85 00:04:38,027 --> 00:04:41,767 Speaker 2: God created us in his image. How can we deal 86 00:04:41,827 --> 00:04:46,476 Speaker 2: with the flaws of our humanity, but also understand move 87 00:04:46,556 --> 00:04:49,426 Speaker 2: forward in a way that isn't filled with shame? 88 00:04:50,546 --> 00:04:53,067 Speaker 3: Oh, that's a wonderful question. That's something I really wanted 89 00:04:53,106 --> 00:04:56,766 Speaker 3: to explore in the book because first, I do believe 90 00:04:56,926 --> 00:05:00,147 Speaker 3: it's really important for us to come to grips with 91 00:05:00,467 --> 00:05:04,087 Speaker 3: our brokenness and the darkness that we have and the 92 00:05:04,246 --> 00:05:07,597 Speaker 3: messiness and the warts and flaws and scars. That's important, 93 00:05:08,017 --> 00:05:11,256 Speaker 3: but that's not where we stay. And because, you know, 94 00:05:11,397 --> 00:05:14,077 Speaker 3: it's easy to go and go, okay, I faced my 95 00:05:14,637 --> 00:05:16,726 Speaker 3: the dark parts of myself, and now I just hate 96 00:05:16,787 --> 00:05:20,226 Speaker 3: myself and I don't love myself. And that's not where 97 00:05:20,267 --> 00:05:20,807 Speaker 3: God wants. 98 00:05:20,686 --> 00:05:21,166 Speaker 1: Us to stay. 99 00:05:21,566 --> 00:05:24,507 Speaker 3: We have to recognize the broken parts of ourselves, but 100 00:05:24,907 --> 00:05:28,117 Speaker 3: only so we can go about partnering with God to 101 00:05:28,157 --> 00:05:31,597 Speaker 3: let him fix them, to let him breathe redemption and wholeness. 102 00:05:32,037 --> 00:05:34,476 Speaker 3: And so when you remember that you were designed and 103 00:05:34,537 --> 00:05:38,787 Speaker 3: created by a loving God, that inherently brings you worth 104 00:05:39,027 --> 00:05:42,027 Speaker 3: and value in a way that even if you have brokenness, 105 00:05:42,087 --> 00:05:44,207 Speaker 3: you know that there's something there to be fixed towards 106 00:05:44,226 --> 00:05:47,527 Speaker 3: something beautiful. And so how do we do it? Well, 107 00:05:47,686 --> 00:05:49,366 Speaker 3: we know that it's just part of the journey, not 108 00:05:49,416 --> 00:05:51,976 Speaker 3: the end of the journey. We acknowledge the things that 109 00:05:52,017 --> 00:05:55,376 Speaker 3: are broken, but then we say, okay, and we invite 110 00:05:55,416 --> 00:05:57,257 Speaker 3: God into them and say, will you come and help 111 00:05:57,337 --> 00:06:01,116 Speaker 3: me redeem these and make these places whole so that 112 00:06:01,157 --> 00:06:05,897 Speaker 3: we can live into the calling and the vision of 113 00:06:05,936 --> 00:06:08,837 Speaker 3: who God created us to be. And that is where 114 00:06:08,856 --> 00:06:10,517 Speaker 3: the journey is headed. And that's what I really want 115 00:06:10,537 --> 00:06:13,317 Speaker 3: to get across in this book. The journey only begins 116 00:06:13,537 --> 00:06:15,976 Speaker 3: when we face the hard and difficult and broken parts 117 00:06:15,996 --> 00:06:18,476 Speaker 3: of ourself, but it's going to end in a place 118 00:06:18,517 --> 00:06:21,256 Speaker 3: where we're whole and beautiful. When we partner with God 119 00:06:21,296 --> 00:06:23,676 Speaker 3: on that journey, we know there's this beginning of the journey, 120 00:06:23,707 --> 00:06:26,426 Speaker 3: not the end. The end is the beautiful part. And 121 00:06:26,467 --> 00:06:28,906 Speaker 3: the end is where redemption and goodness and wholeness lies. 122 00:06:29,866 --> 00:06:33,707 Speaker 2: Exactly. Until then, we're always working on it, right? Tell 123 00:06:33,767 --> 00:06:37,347 Speaker 2: us how you believe our failures actually can bring us 124 00:06:37,426 --> 00:06:38,316 Speaker 2: closer to God. 125 00:06:38,736 --> 00:06:41,416 Speaker 3: Well, it's in the same way that when a kid 126 00:06:41,476 --> 00:06:43,717 Speaker 3: falls off his bike and skins his knee and gets 127 00:06:43,796 --> 00:06:46,657 Speaker 3: picked up when he cries for his parent and reaches 128 00:06:46,736 --> 00:06:49,256 Speaker 3: up his arms and says, help me. Uh, my, my 129 00:06:49,296 --> 00:06:53,517 Speaker 3: knee hurts. I broke my hand, whatever it might be is, um, 130 00:06:53,816 --> 00:06:57,246 Speaker 3: when we allow our failures to be, to inform that 131 00:06:57,467 --> 00:06:59,787 Speaker 3: moment for us to reach up our hands and say, 132 00:06:59,827 --> 00:07:03,837 Speaker 3: help me. Uh, when we allow that, um, that help moment, 133 00:07:03,856 --> 00:07:07,537 Speaker 3: that help prayer to take place when our knee hurts, 134 00:07:07,556 --> 00:07:10,027 Speaker 3: when we skin something, when we're in pain, whatever it 135 00:07:10,066 --> 00:07:12,487 Speaker 3: might be, and you have to recognize the pain, then 136 00:07:13,387 --> 00:07:14,807 Speaker 3: you can move to the help part. And when you 137 00:07:14,907 --> 00:07:17,867 Speaker 3: ask for that help, you're met with a loving parent, 138 00:07:17,907 --> 00:07:20,727 Speaker 3: that image of a loving parent picking you up and 139 00:07:21,107 --> 00:07:24,477 Speaker 3: holding you closer. And so often we run away from 140 00:07:24,517 --> 00:07:28,276 Speaker 3: acknowledging the pain or the skinned knees in our lives. 141 00:07:28,937 --> 00:07:32,437 Speaker 3: And what is amazing opportunity is when we have those 142 00:07:33,387 --> 00:07:38,007 Speaker 3: places of brokenness or pain. They are actually places that can, 143 00:07:38,047 --> 00:07:41,006 Speaker 3: if we choose to, draw us closer to God because 144 00:07:41,047 --> 00:07:43,147 Speaker 3: we can ask for help. And every time we do, 145 00:07:43,967 --> 00:07:46,907 Speaker 3: His help will come and wrap around us like a 146 00:07:46,947 --> 00:07:49,407 Speaker 3: loving parent around a child who's in need. 147 00:07:50,027 --> 00:07:52,827 Speaker 2: How would you encourage people to come to God just 148 00:07:52,967 --> 00:07:53,567 Speaker 2: as they are? 149 00:07:54,087 --> 00:07:56,777 Speaker 3: It's never going to be the right time. You're never 150 00:07:56,807 --> 00:08:00,117 Speaker 3: going to look the way you think you should. It's 151 00:08:00,137 --> 00:08:05,157 Speaker 3: never going to be the right circumstances or context. Um, but, uh, 152 00:08:05,347 --> 00:08:07,277 Speaker 3: you just have to do it. You have to jump in. 153 00:08:07,937 --> 00:08:10,136 Speaker 3: And I think the more you can realize that God 154 00:08:10,377 --> 00:08:13,257 Speaker 3: is always around you is always there. The more that 155 00:08:13,277 --> 00:08:15,737 Speaker 3: will set you into a natural state of, Hey, he's 156 00:08:15,757 --> 00:08:18,417 Speaker 3: been here. He's seen everything and he's still here. And 157 00:08:18,437 --> 00:08:21,097 Speaker 3: so the more we can conceptualize and understand that God 158 00:08:21,117 --> 00:08:23,857 Speaker 3: has been there the whole time and he's always right there, 159 00:08:23,917 --> 00:08:25,787 Speaker 3: the more we can feel the freedom to just turn 160 00:08:25,827 --> 00:08:27,987 Speaker 3: to him at any moment, no matter the circumstance of 161 00:08:28,027 --> 00:08:31,066 Speaker 3: what we feel like or look like. Um, But I 162 00:08:31,107 --> 00:08:33,767 Speaker 3: think ultimately it's practice. The more you do it, the 163 00:08:33,887 --> 00:08:35,567 Speaker 3: more you just choose to turn to God, even when 164 00:08:35,587 --> 00:08:37,327 Speaker 3: you don't feel like it, even when you don't feel worthy, 165 00:08:37,347 --> 00:08:39,627 Speaker 3: whatever it is, the more you do it, the more 166 00:08:39,667 --> 00:08:41,987 Speaker 3: you're going to work out that muscle and it's going 167 00:08:42,007 --> 00:08:43,016 Speaker 3: to become second nature. 168 00:08:43,427 --> 00:08:46,817 Speaker 2: Nathan, it's been a wonderful experience getting to know you today. 169 00:08:47,017 --> 00:08:49,237 Speaker 2: Would you please tell our viewers how they can get 170 00:08:49,317 --> 00:08:52,297 Speaker 2: hold of you, get to know where the book is 171 00:08:52,437 --> 00:08:53,497 Speaker 2: and what it's all about? 172 00:08:54,537 --> 00:08:56,697 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Well, if you want to get in touch with me, 173 00:08:56,737 --> 00:09:00,607 Speaker 3: you can go to nathanclarkson.me and you can find Everything 174 00:09:00,647 --> 00:09:02,757 Speaker 3: I'm up to there, you can also search my name 175 00:09:02,857 --> 00:09:06,117 Speaker 3: on any of the socials I'm around. You can listen 176 00:09:06,137 --> 00:09:09,117 Speaker 3: to my podcast called The Overthinkers. And if you want 177 00:09:09,137 --> 00:09:11,437 Speaker 3: to grab this new book, it's called I'm the Worst, 178 00:09:11,637 --> 00:09:15,417 Speaker 3: and it's out for pre-order right now. And it's a 179 00:09:15,457 --> 00:09:18,037 Speaker 3: deeply personal book that came out of a deeply personal place. 180 00:09:18,717 --> 00:09:22,387 Speaker 3: And I always hope that when you put deeply personal 181 00:09:22,417 --> 00:09:25,007 Speaker 3: words and stories, it'll connect to others in a deeply 182 00:09:25,047 --> 00:09:27,607 Speaker 3: personal way. So that's how you can find me. 183 00:09:28,407 --> 00:09:32,386 Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed my conversation with the insightful Nathan Clarkson. 184 00:09:33,027 --> 00:09:35,677 Speaker 2: I'd like to close our time together today with an 185 00:09:35,787 --> 00:09:42,217 Speaker 2: excerpt of a prayer from Jesus Listens, April 7th. My 186 00:09:42,277 --> 00:09:46,057 Speaker 2: Savior God, I long for the absence of problems in 187 00:09:46,097 --> 00:09:50,597 Speaker 2: my life, but I realize this is an unrealistic goal. 188 00:09:51,437 --> 00:09:56,417 Speaker 2: Shortly before your crucifixion, you told your followers candidly, in 189 00:09:56,457 --> 00:10:00,057 Speaker 2: this world you will have trouble. I'm thankful I can 190 00:10:00,097 --> 00:10:04,767 Speaker 2: look forward to an eternity of problem-free living reserved for 191 00:10:04,827 --> 00:10:09,557 Speaker 2: me in heaven. I rejoice in this glorious inheritance, which 192 00:10:09,637 --> 00:10:13,237 Speaker 2: no one can take away from me. Teach me to 193 00:10:13,317 --> 00:10:18,597 Speaker 2: wait patiently for this promised perfection rather than seeking my 194 00:10:18,657 --> 00:10:22,867 Speaker 2: heaven here on earth. Please remind me again and again 195 00:10:22,947 --> 00:10:27,037 Speaker 2: that you are on my side and And you have 196 00:10:27,257 --> 00:10:32,937 Speaker 2: overcome the world. Such powerful, powerful words. It's in your 197 00:10:33,057 --> 00:10:38,917 Speaker 2: conquering name, Jesus. Amen. We'll see you next time on 198 00:10:38,957 --> 00:10:40,597 Speaker 2: Jesus Listens Stories of Prayer. 199 00:10:48,067 --> 00:10:50,937 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on social media and on 200 00:10:50,977 --> 00:10:53,837 Speaker 1: the Jesus Calling podcast on Apple or wherever you get 201 00:10:53,877 --> 00:10:56,397 Speaker 1: your podcasts so that you can keep up with our 202 00:10:56,437 --> 00:10:59,697 Speaker 1: weekly audio episodes and special monthly series like this one. 203 00:11:00,297 --> 00:11:02,707 Speaker 1: And be sure to subscribe to the Jesus Calling channel 204 00:11:02,847 --> 00:11:06,247 Speaker 1: on YouTube, where you'll find the video version of this interview. 205 00:11:06,767 --> 00:11:07,447 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening!