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Speaker 1: Life audio. Okay, I want you to stop and think

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Speaker 1: about someone that you know that is not a believer

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Speaker 1: in Jesus Christ and imagine them carrying a Bible, going

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Speaker 1: to church saying Praise the Lord. Can you think of

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Speaker 1: someone we all know people that seem to be unreachable. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do an interview in a few moments

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Speaker 1: with someone that fits that category. His name is Michael Frenzies.

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Speaker 1: He was a member of the Colombo crime family. He

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Speaker 1: was a mobster, a good fella, the real deal, and

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Speaker 1: he is one of the most amazing conversion stories I've

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Speaker 1: ever heard. I've had the opportunity to interview some pretty

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Speaker 1: interesting people like Alice Cooper, rock star extraordinaire, Darryl Strawberry,

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Speaker 1: famous for his great exploits as a baseball player, but

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Speaker 1: all so infamous for what happened off the field, being

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Speaker 1: arrested for drugs and other things, and how God reached them.

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Speaker 1: But the story of Michael Frenzies, to me, is one

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Speaker 1: of the most amazing stories of all and I hope

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Speaker 1: that it will inspire you to continue to pray for

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Speaker 1: people you know that don't know the Lord. So here's

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Speaker 1: the thought. Get someone you know that you can't imagine

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Speaker 1: becoming a Christian and get them to watch this podcast.

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Speaker 1: Try to get them to watch it all the way through.

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Speaker 1: And I think as you hear the story of the

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Speaker 1: mobster who became a believer, you will be amazed. So

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Speaker 1: here we go, Michael Frenzies. So you're raised in a

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Speaker 1: home where your father is a mobster? Is that the

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Speaker 1: right word to use for him, Sunny Frenzies? And how

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Speaker 1: would you describe what he did for the Columbus crime family.

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Speaker 2: My dad was the underboss, which means he was the

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Speaker 2: second in command. Oh wow, So he was the allegedly

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Speaker 2: the closest to the boss.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and the boss died, does he immediately become the

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Speaker 1: dawn of the family.

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Speaker 2: Not necessarily. I mean he would be first in line,

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Speaker 2: but it's there's a lot of politics involved.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know so.

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Speaker 2: But in my father's case, he would have been because

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Speaker 2: he was popular and well liked among the men's so

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Speaker 2: he would have been. He would have been the next two. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Was he an enforcer? Didn't you tell me that once?

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Speaker 2: You know he was by reputation he was because my

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Speaker 2: dad was a pretty tough guy.

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Speaker 1: Had to find the enforcer.

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Speaker 2: You know, he made sure that people stayed in line

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Speaker 2: in the family, and if it was any dirty work

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Speaker 2: to be done, he wouldn't handle it either himself or

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Speaker 2: he would put the team together to do it.

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Speaker 1: When did you become aware of the fact that this

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Speaker 1: is what your father did was because I remember you

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Speaker 1: told me he would show up at your baseball games

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Speaker 1: and he would maybe have some guys with him and

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Speaker 1: tell me how that played out.

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Speaker 2: But you know, you know, going back to my earliest

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Speaker 2: memory of something strange with my dad, we were living

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Speaker 2: in Brooklyn and for some reason he moved us out

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Speaker 2: to Long Island to my grandmother's house, my mother's mother

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Speaker 2: and father, and he was gone for a couple of days.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like four years old, but I have a

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Speaker 2: memory of this. For some reason, this specific incident, we

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Speaker 2: hadn't seen him, and then one morning he comes all

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Speaker 2: of a sudden. He hadn't shared my father, had a

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Speaker 2: heavy beard, he hadn't shaved. He came in the house,

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Speaker 2: he embraced my mother. I was sitting on the steps

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Speaker 2: and I was watching this and then I noticed his

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Speaker 2: right hand guy who you know, later on I knew

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Speaker 2: he was his right hand guy Joey was out on

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Speaker 2: the porch kind of watching things, you know, while my

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Speaker 2: dad was inside. And then he came over and embraced

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Speaker 2: me and hugged me. I miscious on all that, and

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Speaker 2: then he left. And when I found out later, our

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Speaker 2: family was at war during that time, and so they

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Speaker 2: were taken to the mattresses, as they say, and there

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Speaker 2: was it was quite a while that he was gone.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't see him that much. So that was the

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Speaker 2: first realization. If for some reason, Greg that sticks out.

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Speaker 2: I never forgot that. And I was like four years.

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Speaker 1: Old, and you really loved your dad and admired him.

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Speaker 1: He did, yes, When you finally became aware of what

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Speaker 1: he did, did you say, I want to be like

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Speaker 1: my dad when I grow up, I want to follow

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Speaker 1: his path, or you more like Michael Carleone who was

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Speaker 1: pursuing a different path, you know, because his father, Veto

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Speaker 1: didn't want him in the family business, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much the same my dad didn't want me now.

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Speaker 2: He wanted me to go to school and be a doctor.

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Speaker 1: Oh doctor, yeah.

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Speaker 2: He said, you know, you're going to be the first

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Speaker 2: professional in the family. He thought I had it in me.

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Speaker 2: I was a pretty good student. So I never had

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Speaker 2: any interest in following in his footsteps in the life.

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Speaker 2: But I did want to be like him because I

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Speaker 2: really admired him.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: But if you would have said to me at that age,

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Speaker 2: what did I want to be? I wanted to play

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Speaker 2: center field for the New York Yankees like Mickey Manno

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Speaker 2: was my idol back then. So no, I had no

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Speaker 2: interest in that, but I did want to follow my

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Speaker 2: dad's presence. Yes, if you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now you felt yourself pulled into this life as

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Speaker 1: you call it, right, explain what you call this life?

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Speaker 1: And La Cosa Nostra and all of that.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, cousin Austro mafia. It's a very real

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Speaker 2: criminal organization, I'd have to say that, and very big

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Speaker 2: presence in New York. There are actually five distinct cousin

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Speaker 2: Aster families in New York. Nine throughout the country, but

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Speaker 2: five in New York. New York is really the stronghold

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Speaker 2: exact as they did they do, but not not the same.

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Speaker 2: So five families, five families, And you know, my childhood

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Speaker 2: was very turbulent because my dad kept getting arrested and dieted,

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Speaker 2: going to jail, going to trials. So I witnessed that

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Speaker 2: my whole young life, and so I knew what the

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Speaker 2: life was about. Obviously, my dad was a very high

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Speaker 2: profile figure, always in front of the media. You know,

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Speaker 2: they were always writing about him, so it was hard

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Speaker 2: not to know about him. As far as the baseball games,

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Speaker 2: you know, I said, he would never miss a game,

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Speaker 2: no matter what he was doing. He'd always pull up

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Speaker 2: in a big black Cadillac or a black plan remember

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Speaker 2: those nineteen sixty Cadillacts. Great, they were huge, right, So

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Speaker 2: he pulled right up to the field, get out of

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Speaker 2: the car. You'd have five or six guys with him.

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Speaker 2: I'd be up to bat. The umpire would never call

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Speaker 2: strike three on me when he seen my father walking

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Speaker 2: up into the stands. So he was very supportive in

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Speaker 2: that way, you know. But I knew everything that was

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Speaker 2: going on. So I was visiting him in jail and

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Speaker 2: going to the trials and all that stuff. But what

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Speaker 2: happened is he went to trial three times, very serious crimes,

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Speaker 2: grand larceny twice, murder once, but he was acquitted in

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Speaker 2: all of them. But then in sixty six they indicted

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Speaker 2: him in federal court from masterminding in nationwide during the

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Speaker 2: bank robberies. He gets convicted, gets sentenced to fifty years

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Speaker 2: in prison, and goes off to jail. In prison, I

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Speaker 2: should say in nineteen seventy, and that's when I was

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Speaker 2: a pre med student at hof Street University in New

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Speaker 2: York and Joe Columbo was a boss of my family then,

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Speaker 2: and I knew him well. He kind of took me

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Speaker 2: under his wing. He became another mentor of mine. And

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Speaker 2: then I met a lot of my dad's friends. And

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Speaker 2: you know, Mike, if you don't help your father out,

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Speaker 2: he's going to die in prison. Because Greg that particular

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Speaker 2: crime that my dad did forty years on, he actually

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Speaker 2: did forty he was innocent ofough. My dad was not

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Speaker 2: a bank robber, and I'll take that to my grave.

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Speaker 2: Investigated the case the whole thing. So I went to

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Speaker 2: visit him in Levenworth and I said, if I don't

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Speaker 2: help you out, you're going to die in here. I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to go to school anymore. And we kind

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Speaker 2: of argued. He wasn't for it, but then he kind

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Speaker 2: of threw his hands up. You know, I was a

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Speaker 2: pretty headstrong kid, and he said, if you're going to

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Speaker 2: be on the street. I want you on the street

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Speaker 2: the right way, and his mind, the right way was

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Speaker 2: to become a member of his life. So at that

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Speaker 2: time he proposed me for membership. Because you know, you

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Speaker 2: can't just go up to somebody and say, hey, I'd

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Speaker 2: like to join, you know, somebody has to propose you

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Speaker 2: and vouch for you. In my case, it was my dad,

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Speaker 2: And there's a lot of nepotism in that life. A

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Speaker 2: lot of fathers bring their sons and their relatives in

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Speaker 2: basically for security reasons. You figure you're going to stand up,

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Speaker 2: you're not going to cause trouble. So that's how it

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Speaker 2: started for me. I was twenty one.

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Speaker 1: And there's a phrase you've told me about when you

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Speaker 1: say he's a friend of ours, or there's a variation

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Speaker 1: on the way you introduce some other. Let's say you

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Speaker 1: bring me to one of your mobster friends and I'm

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Speaker 1: not in this life, how would you introduce me?

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Speaker 2: Well, if you weren't in a life, I say this

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Speaker 2: is a friend of mine.

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Speaker 1: Greg, Okay, Now, if I am in this life, how

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Speaker 1: would you introduce you?

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Speaker 2: See, this is a friend of ours.

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Speaker 1: Okay, forget about it, say that, say it, Get about

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Speaker 1: it forget about it.

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Speaker 2: Everybody says that, Yeah, it.

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Speaker 1: Seems like when you go into New Jersey, don't they

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Speaker 1: actually have that on their sign. They've totally embraced forget

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Speaker 1: about It.

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Speaker 2: So I have to tell you when Donny Brasco came out,

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Speaker 2: I went to see it with Cammy and when what

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Speaker 2: was his name? They played Donny Brasco. When he got

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Speaker 2: into that scene and said forget about it, I was

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Speaker 2: the only one in the movie that was laughing at

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Speaker 2: I understand that. Yeah, Johnny Depp, I understood it. What

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Speaker 2: are you laughing about us, cam you don't get it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So Patino and I think you told me that

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Speaker 1: you felt that was the most realistic mob film because

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Speaker 1: it was actually taking Donnie Brasco. That was his name.

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Speaker 1: He was as an FBI agent, was wearing a wire,

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Speaker 1: so a lot of the dialogue in Donny Brasco was

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Speaker 1: real dialogue from that life.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was Paccino's best role because I knew

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Speaker 2: Lefty Riggerio, the character he played, and he just killed it.

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Speaker 1: He was ter you knew the actual person, yes, wow,

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Speaker 1: And of course he knew Joe Colombo from the Columbu

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Speaker 1: Crimefach we're up there. When Joe was shot.

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Speaker 2: I was twelve steps away from him he got shot,

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Speaker 2: and it was the second time I witnessed something like that,

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Speaker 2: and it was pretty eye opening.

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Speaker 1: People have such a fascination with mob films, and of course,

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Speaker 1: of course these has made many of them, and Coppola,

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Speaker 1: of course Godfather one and two. Of all the mob films,

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Speaker 1: what do you think was the most realistic and what

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Speaker 1: is maybe the most unrealistic?

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Speaker 2: Well this is going to throw you a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but the most realistic mob film, in my opinion, was

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Speaker 2: a nineteen ninety six Gotti HBO movie with Armand Descante

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Speaker 2: and Anthony Quinn. It was taken right from the surveillance

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Speaker 2: tapes and the recordings, and it was so brilliantly acted.

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Speaker 2: There was a scene in there that gave me the chills.

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Speaker 2: It was so realistic. And that's when Anthony Quinn, who

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Speaker 2: played what's your Name again? Dela Crotch Neil Delacrotch, she

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Speaker 2: was the underboss in that position, and when he came

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Speaker 2: in and told Gotti, armand de Santi that he saved

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Speaker 2: his life last night with the boss. But if he

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Speaker 2: hadn't said, if the boss would have said you got

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Speaker 2: to go. He said, I would have come in here

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Speaker 2: and you would have went. But the way he said it,

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Speaker 2: it was so realistic. It just gave me the chills.

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Speaker 2: It was very realistic movie, very well done. I mean

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Speaker 2: they were a number then, But that's my number one.

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Speaker 2: People get shocked when I say that, But that's my

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Speaker 2: number one.

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Speaker 1: What would be like two and three?

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Speaker 2: Donny Brasco very realistic Goodfellas obviously.

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Speaker 1: Because that was a real guy. Henry Hill.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, all those characters were real. Jimmy Burke was real,

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Speaker 2: Paulie was real, and I knew them all. That's why

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Speaker 2: they put my name in that film.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. There's a scene in Goodfellas in the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the film where the cameras panning down and they were

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Speaker 1: introducing people sitting at the bar, and they actually used

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Speaker 1: your name in the film.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I was kind of stunned when I saw that,

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Speaker 2: because I said, that's a different that was coming.

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Speaker 1: No, you're sitting in the theater and yes, that comes

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Speaker 1: on and you you didn't know that was going to happen,

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Speaker 1: know it? Wow?

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Speaker 2: And Cammy was like, we actually got up and left

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Speaker 2: because that was such a graphic film. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: what else was going to happen on so I said,

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Speaker 2: can we got to go because she doesn't like to

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Speaker 2: see any of that. So we left. But I called

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Speaker 2: the writer up. It was a friend of mine, Nick Poledge,

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Speaker 2: and I said, Nick, why'd you put me in that film? He'sid, well,

248
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Speaker 2: you knew everybody and you got name value, and so

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Speaker 2: we put you in. I said, well, can you warn

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Speaker 2: me next time?

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Speaker 1: And like, how accurate were the Godfather films?

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Speaker 2: Brilliantly done? I mean the acting was just so amazing,

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Speaker 2: but not really accurate. You know, the son doesn't take

254
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Speaker 2: all for the father in a case like that, you know,

255
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Speaker 2: the boss coming in, and there was some things that

256
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Speaker 2: weren't accurate, but pretty much so it showed you a

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Speaker 2: good depiction of the life.

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Speaker 1: Did I hear somewhere that that? Because there's there was

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Speaker 1: a series made? Was it called The Offer? Yeah? And

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Speaker 1: that was like your era, because your era was the

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Speaker 1: eighties there and when they were making The Godfather and.

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Speaker 2: They actually that was the seventies, oh.

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Speaker 1: The seventies right, and they needed to get approval or

264
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Speaker 1: cooperation from Joe Colombo and so that was you were

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Speaker 1: around in that very time.

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Speaker 2: Was through that whole thing. I love that series. By

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Speaker 2: the way, the offer it wasn't totally realistic, but it

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Speaker 2: was really well done. But yeah, what happened when Joe

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Speaker 2: Columbo had the Italian American Civil Rights League and heard

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Speaker 2: that that movie was coming out. He was protesting it

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Speaker 2: and causing a lot of trouble. So they had to

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Speaker 2: really solve it with him or that film wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: been made. So Joe Columbo played a major role in

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Speaker 2: that film.

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Speaker 1: Now you travel around the world telling your amazing story,

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Speaker 1: your unique story. I've never heard a story like yours

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Speaker 1: before with the mob, with the mafia globally, not just

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Speaker 1: in America. What is it that fascinates people about that?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: I think the media had a lot to do with it, obviously,

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Speaker 2: And some of these figures are bigger than life, you know.

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Speaker 2: I'll give you an example. About six or seven months ago,

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Speaker 2: I was in a market and I was at the

284
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Speaker 2: checkout counter. I noticed on the magazine rack there was

285
00:14:03,085 --> 00:14:05,365
Speaker 2: an al capone on the cover of the magazine. So

286
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Speaker 2: I'm looking for content all the time on my channel,

287
00:14:07,965 --> 00:14:10,485
Speaker 2: so I went and picked it up. The entire magazine

288
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Speaker 2: was on al Caholm. Now he's dead almost one hundred years, wow,

289
00:14:14,245 --> 00:14:16,605
Speaker 2: one hundred years. But it was fascinating some of the

290
00:14:16,645 --> 00:14:19,445
Speaker 2: things that I read there. So it just never goes away.

291
00:14:19,845 --> 00:14:22,805
Speaker 2: You know, guys like John Gotti and Joey Colombo and

292
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Speaker 2: all of these guys. There's really no other criminal organization

293
00:14:26,965 --> 00:14:30,405
Speaker 2: that has characters like that, and I think that's what

294
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Speaker 2: it is. And you know, look, a lot of these

295
00:14:32,525 --> 00:14:36,925
Speaker 2: younger people, when I go into prisons and juvenile halls,

296
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Speaker 2: they say, come on, you know, you had all the money,

297
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Speaker 2: you had, the cars, you had, the girls, you had

298
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Speaker 2: all of this, and they've seen it from the movies.

299
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Speaker 2: And I say, I understand that, but do you see

300
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Speaker 2: the end of the movie who got killed? Who became

301
00:14:48,685 --> 00:14:51,125
Speaker 2: an informant? They don't even look at that. They're just

302
00:14:51,245 --> 00:14:54,565
Speaker 2: fascinated by what they see. That's glamorous, and that's the

303
00:14:54,605 --> 00:14:55,205
Speaker 2: whole world.

304
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Speaker 1: Did you see The Untouchables?

305
00:14:57,805 --> 00:14:58,085
Speaker 2: I did?

306
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I wonder how accurate that was? Not? Really?

307
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Speaker 1: Oh really it was.

308
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Speaker 2: No elliot ness was made to be big, good than life.

309
00:15:06,365 --> 00:15:09,445
Speaker 2: He really wasn't the one that brought al Capone down.

310
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Speaker 1: All rightly. Who did it?

311
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Speaker 2: Was a treasury department, but it wasn't him, and it

312
00:15:13,045 --> 00:15:15,725
Speaker 2: was an IRS type of case. You know, it didn't

313
00:15:15,765 --> 00:15:17,485
Speaker 2: have the IRS back then whose treasury?

314
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Speaker 1: So coming back to your story, so you're following in

315
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Speaker 1: your fall father's footsteps. You're going to become a made man.

316
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Speaker 1: So what is the process of having that happened to you?

317
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Speaker 1: And I remember you told me a story about what

318
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Speaker 1: when you were initiated. Tell me what happens when you

319
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Speaker 1: become a part of the mob.

320
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Speaker 2: Well, after a kind of a recruit period where you

321
00:15:44,005 --> 00:15:48,085
Speaker 2: have to prove yourself worthy to them, and if that happens,

322
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Speaker 2: then there's an initiation, you take an oath, and mine

323
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Speaker 2: happened on Halloween night, nineteen seventy five. And there was

324
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Speaker 2: an expression before the seventies that the books were closed.

325
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Speaker 2: They weren't making any new guys for security reasons. In

326
00:16:02,605 --> 00:16:04,685
Speaker 2: the seventies, they opened the books and they were starting

327
00:16:04,685 --> 00:16:06,685
Speaker 2: to bring guys. So I was one of the first

328
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Speaker 2: that came in. And they did that really out of

329
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Speaker 2: respect for my dad, because he needed me and he

330
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Speaker 2: wanted me involved. So it was Halloween night. We walked

331
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Speaker 2: into a room individually, the six of us. The boss

332
00:16:19,205 --> 00:16:21,725
Speaker 2: was seated at the head of a horseshoe configuration, the

333
00:16:21,805 --> 00:16:26,965
Speaker 2: underboss in the consulgieri, another high profile position with his

334
00:16:27,085 --> 00:16:28,925
Speaker 2: left and right, and all the carp of Re James,

335
00:16:28,925 --> 00:16:31,165
Speaker 2: our captains were alongside it, and we had about fifteen

336
00:16:31,205 --> 00:16:33,765
Speaker 2: in our family at that point. Walked down the aisle,

337
00:16:33,805 --> 00:16:35,525
Speaker 2: stood in front of the boss, held out my hand.

338
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Speaker 2: He took a knife, cut my finger. Some blood dropped

339
00:16:38,405 --> 00:16:41,245
Speaker 2: on the floor. I cupped my hands. He took a

340
00:16:41,285 --> 00:16:43,405
Speaker 2: picture of a saint Catholic al to God, put it

341
00:16:43,445 --> 00:16:45,925
Speaker 2: in my hands, lited a flame. It didn't hurt, burned quickly.

342
00:16:46,405 --> 00:16:49,845
Speaker 2: It was merely symbolic. And he said, tonight, Michael Francis,

343
00:16:49,925 --> 00:16:53,085
Speaker 2: you are born again into a new life, into coshostrup.

344
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Speaker 2: Violate what you know about this life, betray your brothers.

345
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Speaker 2: You will die and burn in hell like this saint

346
00:16:58,965 --> 00:17:01,685
Speaker 2: is burning in your hands. Do you accept? Yes, I do.

347
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Speaker 2: That's it.

348
00:17:02,525 --> 00:17:07,125
Speaker 1: Yet here you sit alive telling this story. When there

349
00:17:07,165 --> 00:17:12,925
Speaker 1: was a list made of the top mafia bossas or mobsters,

350
00:17:13,524 --> 00:17:16,524
Speaker 1: and you were on that list, and I think most

351
00:17:16,564 --> 00:17:19,484
Speaker 1: of them are dead, and yet here alive. Who was

352
00:17:19,524 --> 00:17:21,124
Speaker 1: on that list? And what was that about?

353
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Speaker 2: Whether it was it was Fortune magazine, wrote an article

354
00:17:23,804 --> 00:17:26,084
Speaker 2: in eighty six. It was like half the magazine, a

355
00:17:26,165 --> 00:17:29,164
Speaker 2: huge article, and they featured six or the fifty of

356
00:17:29,205 --> 00:17:31,764
Speaker 2: us on there. I was one of the six, and

357
00:17:32,205 --> 00:17:34,645
Speaker 2: they had a chart with the fiftieth cooding to rank

358
00:17:34,685 --> 00:17:37,124
Speaker 2: wealth and power. And I was the youngest guy on

359
00:17:37,165 --> 00:17:40,044
Speaker 2: the list. I was number eighteen. I was fine five

360
00:17:40,084 --> 00:17:42,484
Speaker 2: behind Gody at the time, he was number thirteen. He

361
00:17:42,524 --> 00:17:45,924
Speaker 2: hadn't been made balls yet. And I always say it

362
00:17:45,965 --> 00:17:48,164
Speaker 2: was a silly list. They didn't ask for our tax returns.

363
00:17:48,205 --> 00:17:50,165
Speaker 2: I don't know how to It sold a lot of magazines.

364
00:17:50,205 --> 00:17:53,004
Speaker 2: But what's not silly about the list, Greg, is that

365
00:17:53,125 --> 00:17:55,124
Speaker 2: out of the list of fifty today, forty eight of

366
00:17:55,165 --> 00:17:58,684
Speaker 2: them are dead. Number forty nine is doing life in prison,

367
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Speaker 2: and I'm the only one live in free.

368
00:18:01,284 --> 00:18:04,445
Speaker 1: How is it that you did serve ten years?

369
00:18:04,524 --> 00:18:07,044
Speaker 2: Right, I got a ten year sentence. I served eight

370
00:18:07,084 --> 00:18:08,684
Speaker 2: out of the ten, which is a maximum.

371
00:18:09,044 --> 00:18:11,964
Speaker 1: How is it that you are sitting here living to

372
00:18:12,004 --> 00:18:15,565
Speaker 1: tell the story and didn't serve maybe a longer sentence,

373
00:18:15,764 --> 00:18:17,205
Speaker 1: or that you were not targeted?

374
00:18:17,365 --> 00:18:19,484
Speaker 2: Well, you know I was targeted for a while because

375
00:18:19,524 --> 00:18:22,364
Speaker 2: when I walked away, you can't do that. And a

376
00:18:22,405 --> 00:18:25,484
Speaker 2: lot of people thought that. You know, normally when guys

377
00:18:25,484 --> 00:18:28,965
Speaker 2: walk away, they become informants and they start testifying against people,

378
00:18:29,004 --> 00:18:30,085
Speaker 2: and that's what happens.

379
00:18:30,484 --> 00:18:31,524
Speaker 1: But you never did that.

380
00:18:31,645 --> 00:18:33,404
Speaker 2: No, I didn't want to do that. I wasn't I

381
00:18:33,484 --> 00:18:35,764
Speaker 2: wasn't looking to hurt anybody, you know, Greg was. It

382
00:18:35,844 --> 00:18:38,685
Speaker 2: was a crazy thing with me that some people don't understand.

383
00:18:39,645 --> 00:18:42,644
Speaker 2: It's a treacherous life. There's no question there's backstabbing in

384
00:18:42,725 --> 00:18:44,764
Speaker 2: this and that, but it's like anything else, it's a

385
00:18:44,804 --> 00:18:47,645
Speaker 2: little more intense the consequences on the streets. So when

386
00:18:47,685 --> 00:18:50,044
Speaker 2: I left life, I wasn't mad at anybody. I didn't

387
00:18:50,044 --> 00:18:51,844
Speaker 2: want to get even with anybody. I didn't want to

388
00:18:51,885 --> 00:18:54,324
Speaker 2: hurt anybody. And I would never put my father in

389
00:18:54,365 --> 00:18:57,404
Speaker 2: a position where his son was doing bad things to

390
00:18:57,484 --> 00:19:00,205
Speaker 2: others because he was still on a life. But people

391
00:19:00,205 --> 00:19:03,004
Speaker 2: didn't understand that. But I kept sending messages back, I'm

392
00:19:03,004 --> 00:19:04,804
Speaker 2: not going to hurt anybody, don't worry about it. I

393
00:19:04,844 --> 00:19:07,364
Speaker 2: just want out of life. And they said, well, why

394
00:19:07,405 --> 00:19:09,405
Speaker 2: do you want out her life? And I told my dad,

395
00:19:09,445 --> 00:19:12,804
Speaker 2: I said, Dad, every family of every member of this

396
00:19:12,965 --> 00:19:15,925
Speaker 2: life that I know, has been devastated. I said, look

397
00:19:15,925 --> 00:19:18,844
Speaker 2: at our family. My mom, you know, thirty three years

398
00:19:18,844 --> 00:19:22,164
Speaker 2: without her husband when she passed away. Her relationship with

399
00:19:22,284 --> 00:19:23,124
Speaker 2: my dad was ugly.

400
00:19:23,244 --> 00:19:25,164
Speaker 1: That's how much time he spent incarcerat.

401
00:19:25,205 --> 00:19:28,244
Speaker 2: He spent forty years. I had fifty. And I said,

402
00:19:29,084 --> 00:19:30,965
Speaker 2: you know, and she blamed you for everything that went

403
00:19:31,044 --> 00:19:33,325
Speaker 2: wrong and what went wrong. My sister dies of an

404
00:19:33,324 --> 00:19:37,044
Speaker 2: overdose of drugs. My younger brother's a drug addict twenty

405
00:19:37,084 --> 00:19:39,804
Speaker 2: five years. I can't tell you how hard I had

406
00:19:39,804 --> 00:19:42,044
Speaker 2: to work to keep him alive on the street. If

407
00:19:42,084 --> 00:19:43,685
Speaker 2: it wasn't for me, my father, he would have been

408
00:19:43,725 --> 00:19:46,685
Speaker 2: taken out. My other younger sister dies at the age

409
00:19:46,725 --> 00:19:49,564
Speaker 2: of forty. She was never mentally stable, I said, And

410
00:19:49,604 --> 00:19:52,924
Speaker 2: every family is the same way, every family. So I

411
00:19:53,044 --> 00:19:55,844
Speaker 2: just met this young girl. I'm in love with her.

412
00:19:55,844 --> 00:19:57,205
Speaker 2: I'm going to marry her. Am I going to bring

413
00:19:57,244 --> 00:20:01,404
Speaker 2: her into this Number Number one, number two. I've been

414
00:20:01,445 --> 00:20:04,645
Speaker 2: indicted seven times, I've been to trial five times. I've

415
00:20:04,645 --> 00:20:07,445
Speaker 2: been arrested eighteen times. I said, I got a huge

416
00:20:07,445 --> 00:20:09,445
Speaker 2: target on my back. I'm never going to walk away

417
00:20:09,445 --> 00:20:10,804
Speaker 2: from this life one way or the other.

418
00:20:10,844 --> 00:20:11,645
Speaker 1: I'm going to go down.

419
00:20:12,084 --> 00:20:14,844
Speaker 2: I have to make a choice. And he kind of

420
00:20:14,925 --> 00:20:18,124
Speaker 2: understood it, but he didn't go along with it because

421
00:20:18,165 --> 00:20:21,284
Speaker 2: my dad was just too much a part of that life.

422
00:20:21,484 --> 00:20:23,764
Speaker 2: He said, you took an oath. I said, I understand that,

423
00:20:23,804 --> 00:20:25,445
Speaker 2: but I have a young girl that I'm in love with.

424
00:20:25,645 --> 00:20:25,965
Speaker 1: Yes.

425
00:20:26,165 --> 00:20:30,604
Speaker 2: And at the same time, my wife introduced me to

426
00:20:30,645 --> 00:20:31,044
Speaker 2: the Lord.

427
00:20:31,804 --> 00:20:32,164
Speaker 1: Yes.

428
00:20:32,564 --> 00:20:34,685
Speaker 2: And so I've got this whole.

429
00:20:35,645 --> 00:20:35,884
Speaker 1: You know.

430
00:20:36,205 --> 00:20:38,564
Speaker 2: It was very, very difficult to make the decision to

431
00:20:38,564 --> 00:20:41,565
Speaker 2: walk away because I felt like I was betraying my people,

432
00:20:41,685 --> 00:20:42,844
Speaker 2: my friends, my oath.

433
00:20:42,925 --> 00:20:44,965
Speaker 1: But then't your father and effect betray you.

434
00:20:45,365 --> 00:20:48,885
Speaker 2: He did, because when I walked away, Well, I'll tell

435
00:20:48,885 --> 00:20:50,725
Speaker 2: you what really happened. I think this is important for

436
00:20:50,764 --> 00:20:53,204
Speaker 2: people to understand because I think my whole life story

437
00:20:53,324 --> 00:20:57,885
Speaker 2: is it goes in three phases. Number one, my adoration

438
00:20:58,044 --> 00:21:00,885
Speaker 2: for my father. Really wanted to be the best possible

439
00:21:00,925 --> 00:21:02,604
Speaker 2: person I could be for him, whatever it might have

440
00:21:02,685 --> 00:21:05,405
Speaker 2: been when I got into the life, I wanted to

441
00:21:05,604 --> 00:21:09,605
Speaker 2: make him proud. And then it was my heavenly father

442
00:21:09,685 --> 00:21:12,044
Speaker 2: at some point, and of course my wife. These were

443
00:21:12,084 --> 00:21:15,565
Speaker 2: the three most dynamic people in my life. But one

444
00:21:15,604 --> 00:21:18,804
Speaker 2: of the horrors of that life is that you make

445
00:21:18,844 --> 00:21:21,445
Speaker 2: a mistake. Your best friend walks you into a room

446
00:21:21,564 --> 00:21:24,405
Speaker 2: and you don't walk out again in my twenty years

447
00:21:24,405 --> 00:21:27,165
Speaker 2: in that life. Obviously, I know people that went through that.

448
00:21:28,125 --> 00:21:30,205
Speaker 2: So when I was on the street, I was making

449
00:21:30,244 --> 00:21:32,124
Speaker 2: a lot of money greg and I was a captain

450
00:21:32,125 --> 00:21:36,044
Speaker 2: in the family. They had elevated my position, and you know,

451
00:21:36,084 --> 00:21:37,524
Speaker 2: I was one of the younger guys. So you know

452
00:21:37,564 --> 00:21:39,165
Speaker 2: how it is in life. You're a younger guy, you're

453
00:21:39,205 --> 00:21:40,924
Speaker 2: doing well. You got the older guys that there's some

454
00:21:41,004 --> 00:21:42,924
Speaker 2: resentment there and you got a why. You gotta know

455
00:21:42,965 --> 00:21:45,965
Speaker 2: how to navigate that life. It's very, very difficult at times.

456
00:21:46,004 --> 00:21:48,925
Speaker 2: You gotta know how to deal with people. And so

457
00:21:49,284 --> 00:21:51,405
Speaker 2: there was a lot of talk on the street about me,

458
00:21:51,685 --> 00:21:53,925
Speaker 2: and there was an article that came out in the

459
00:21:54,004 --> 00:21:56,565
Speaker 2: Long Island paper that said I was becoming powerful enough

460
00:21:56,685 --> 00:21:59,164
Speaker 2: to break away from the Columbos, to stop my own family.

461
00:22:00,284 --> 00:22:02,365
Speaker 2: It was like a fictional story. It was no truth.

462
00:22:02,445 --> 00:22:05,725
Speaker 2: I never even indicated that, never even a thought order

463
00:22:05,764 --> 00:22:08,284
Speaker 2: to get in people's heads. So my dad happened to

464
00:22:08,284 --> 00:22:11,324
Speaker 2: be on parole during that forty years. He was on

465
00:22:11,445 --> 00:22:14,205
Speaker 2: parole a few times, kept going back total of forty

466
00:22:14,284 --> 00:22:17,205
Speaker 2: years silly. So he called me up and he said,

467
00:22:17,604 --> 00:22:19,124
Speaker 2: I got to see you. So I go to his

468
00:22:19,244 --> 00:22:21,725
Speaker 2: house and he says, the boss wants to see us tonight.

469
00:22:21,844 --> 00:22:23,365
Speaker 2: I said, okay, what time you want me to pick

470
00:22:23,405 --> 00:22:25,604
Speaker 2: you up? Because I drove him everywhere to try to

471
00:22:25,685 --> 00:22:27,605
Speaker 2: protect him. I didn't have a record at that point,

472
00:22:27,804 --> 00:22:29,925
Speaker 2: so he wouldn't meet with anybody because he kept getting

473
00:22:30,004 --> 00:22:34,284
Speaker 2: violated for associating with other criminals. So he said, they

474
00:22:34,324 --> 00:22:36,605
Speaker 2: want to do this differently. They want me to come

475
00:22:36,645 --> 00:22:38,524
Speaker 2: in first and they want you to come in second.

476
00:22:38,804 --> 00:22:40,925
Speaker 2: I said why, I said, why are they going to

477
00:22:40,965 --> 00:22:43,445
Speaker 2: separate us? You know there's talk on the street. We'll

478
00:22:43,564 --> 00:22:45,365
Speaker 2: argue about it. I said, I'm not doing that. We're

479
00:22:45,405 --> 00:22:47,884
Speaker 2: going together. We're not going to let them separate us.

480
00:22:48,365 --> 00:22:50,764
Speaker 2: After about a half hour, I threw up my hands.

481
00:22:50,804 --> 00:22:52,925
Speaker 2: I said, Dad, I've been listening to you all my life.

482
00:22:53,004 --> 00:22:55,045
Speaker 2: I don't like this, but if this is what you want,

483
00:22:55,084 --> 00:22:58,284
Speaker 2: I'll do it. Make a very long story short. I

484
00:22:58,445 --> 00:23:01,364
Speaker 2: drive into Brooklyn and I meet another captain in the

485
00:23:01,405 --> 00:23:04,365
Speaker 2: family who I knew my whole life, and I get

486
00:23:04,405 --> 00:23:06,445
Speaker 2: in the car with him. Because we had to drive

487
00:23:06,484 --> 00:23:08,084
Speaker 2: to meet the boss. It had to be a covert

488
00:23:08,165 --> 00:23:10,724
Speaker 2: meeting because he was on parole. Everybody's on parole, right

489
00:23:10,885 --> 00:23:14,004
Speaker 2: so I couldn't bring the law enforcement there. So we're

490
00:23:14,084 --> 00:23:15,524
Speaker 2: driving around. But when I get in a car, I

491
00:23:15,645 --> 00:23:18,564
Speaker 2: noticed that somebody sitting in the back seat who wasn't

492
00:23:18,564 --> 00:23:20,804
Speaker 2: a maid, guy who I had met maybe once or twice.

493
00:23:20,844 --> 00:23:25,484
Speaker 2: And I'm saying, why is he here? And as we're

494
00:23:25,564 --> 00:23:28,084
Speaker 2: driving to the house, my good friend doesn't tell me

495
00:23:28,165 --> 00:23:30,205
Speaker 2: what the meeting is about. And I don't want to

496
00:23:30,244 --> 00:23:31,804
Speaker 2: look like I'm scared, so I don't I ask him.

497
00:23:31,885 --> 00:23:35,004
Speaker 2: Right when we parked the car was a summer day

498
00:23:35,004 --> 00:23:37,645
Speaker 2: in August, and we had to go to a basement

499
00:23:37,725 --> 00:23:40,925
Speaker 2: apartment in a house, single family house, and it was

500
00:23:40,965 --> 00:23:43,925
Speaker 2: about a thirty yard walk from the car to the basement,

501
00:23:44,084 --> 00:23:49,124
Speaker 2: down the steps, and Greg, I was scared because I

502
00:23:49,205 --> 00:23:51,084
Speaker 2: got out of the car and I started walking. I

503
00:23:51,165 --> 00:23:53,525
Speaker 2: heard the two car doors slam. Now I said, why

504
00:23:53,645 --> 00:23:57,484
Speaker 2: is his kid, this young guy coming into this meeting.

505
00:23:57,764 --> 00:24:01,844
Speaker 2: Something's wrong, And I'm saying I might get killed here,

506
00:24:03,205 --> 00:24:05,445
Speaker 2: and I didn't want to show fear. People have said

507
00:24:05,564 --> 00:24:08,484
Speaker 2: to me, why didn't you cut and run? And I said, well,

508
00:24:08,804 --> 00:24:10,885
Speaker 2: it wasn't heroic, it was really robotic.

509
00:24:11,044 --> 00:24:12,044
Speaker 1: I was just so much a.

510
00:24:12,044 --> 00:24:13,964
Speaker 2: Product of a life by that time. I said, hey,

511
00:24:13,965 --> 00:24:16,524
Speaker 2: if this is it, this is it. So I'm walking

512
00:24:16,604 --> 00:24:20,085
Speaker 2: down those steps and when the door opens, I knew

513
00:24:20,125 --> 00:24:21,284
Speaker 2: that that could have been a less thing.

514
00:24:21,365 --> 00:24:21,645
Speaker 1: I saw.

515
00:24:21,725 --> 00:24:26,604
Speaker 2: I almost I probably almost fainted, I don't remember. But anyway,

516
00:24:26,685 --> 00:24:29,405
Speaker 2: long story short, I'm here right. So that didn't happen.

517
00:24:29,564 --> 00:24:32,644
Speaker 2: But we had a real argument over the gas business.

518
00:24:33,405 --> 00:24:36,165
Speaker 2: What they wrote in that article was that I was

519
00:24:36,244 --> 00:24:40,044
Speaker 2: bringing down two billion dollars a year, which was crazy.

520
00:24:40,764 --> 00:24:42,405
Speaker 2: And I was telling the boss. I said, you know,

521
00:24:42,524 --> 00:24:44,404
Speaker 2: when they write about everybody else, it's a lie. When

522
00:24:44,445 --> 00:24:45,244
Speaker 2: they're writing about me.

523
00:24:45,284 --> 00:24:45,685
Speaker 1: It's true.

524
00:24:45,725 --> 00:24:49,445
Speaker 2: I said, this is all nonsense. Anyway, it goes over. Fine, Okay,

525
00:24:49,645 --> 00:24:51,965
Speaker 2: you know we believe you. We're sorry, and let's have

526
00:24:52,044 --> 00:24:53,445
Speaker 2: a drink. Because I don't want a drink. I want

527
00:24:53,445 --> 00:24:55,685
Speaker 2: to go home. So I told Jimmy drive me back

528
00:24:55,725 --> 00:24:57,525
Speaker 2: to my car. And this is where it gets interesting.

529
00:24:58,284 --> 00:25:00,885
Speaker 2: So when we get in the car, I was really

530
00:25:00,965 --> 00:25:03,125
Speaker 2: upset with him because he's my good friend. He didn't

531
00:25:03,165 --> 00:25:05,284
Speaker 2: prepare me, and it was trouble, and I said I

532
00:25:05,645 --> 00:25:07,764
Speaker 2: to tell him something. He said, before you say anything,

533
00:25:07,885 --> 00:25:10,165
Speaker 2: let me tell you this. I said. What he said, Michael,

534
00:25:10,445 --> 00:25:13,004
Speaker 2: this was a real problem for you tonight. You handled

535
00:25:13,044 --> 00:25:15,524
Speaker 2: yourself well, it could have been a problem. When he

536
00:25:15,564 --> 00:25:17,764
Speaker 2: said that, I got even more upset with him. I said,

537
00:25:17,804 --> 00:25:19,965
Speaker 2: you're my good friend, I know you my whole life,

538
00:25:20,004 --> 00:25:22,165
Speaker 2: and you don't tell me. So he looked at me.

539
00:25:22,244 --> 00:25:24,405
Speaker 2: He was very smart, greg and he said, if it

540
00:25:24,524 --> 00:25:26,324
Speaker 2: was the other way around, would you have told me?

541
00:25:27,804 --> 00:25:29,965
Speaker 2: And I thought about it for a second. I'm being honest,

542
00:25:30,044 --> 00:25:32,764
Speaker 2: I said no. So that's the life we lead. He said,

543
00:25:32,804 --> 00:25:34,124
Speaker 2: you know it better than any of you grew up

544
00:25:34,165 --> 00:25:37,564
Speaker 2: in it. And then I'm thinking about that. And then

545
00:25:37,725 --> 00:25:39,524
Speaker 2: as I go to get out of the car we

546
00:25:39,645 --> 00:25:41,845
Speaker 2: parked to go into my car, he grabs my arm

547
00:25:42,365 --> 00:25:44,044
Speaker 2: and he says to me, I'm going to tell you something.

548
00:25:44,324 --> 00:25:45,804
Speaker 2: You're not going to want to hear this, but it

549
00:25:45,965 --> 00:25:47,644
Speaker 2: is the truth. I am your friend. I said what

550
00:25:48,205 --> 00:25:50,364
Speaker 2: he said, your father was in here before you tonight.

551
00:25:50,645 --> 00:25:54,284
Speaker 2: He didn't help you one bit. He hurt you. And

552
00:25:54,405 --> 00:25:56,484
Speaker 2: when he said that to me, it was like, what

553
00:25:56,645 --> 00:25:57,565
Speaker 2: can my father have done?

554
00:25:57,604 --> 00:25:58,124
Speaker 1: I was shocked.

555
00:25:58,165 --> 00:25:59,804
Speaker 2: I didn't even answer him, but I said, I'm walking

556
00:25:59,844 --> 00:26:02,044
Speaker 2: back to my car. Knowing my father so well and

557
00:26:02,165 --> 00:26:05,004
Speaker 2: knowing what his legacy in that life meant, I know

558
00:26:05,084 --> 00:26:07,445
Speaker 2: what he did and I verified this later. Hey, I

559
00:26:07,445 --> 00:26:10,525
Speaker 2: don't do anything. My son handles everything. I'm on parole.

560
00:26:10,725 --> 00:26:13,044
Speaker 2: If there's money missing or if he's got any ideas,

561
00:26:13,125 --> 00:26:15,045
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about it. He kind of threw

562
00:26:15,084 --> 00:26:17,925
Speaker 2: me under the bus, which is very dangerous. But I'll

563
00:26:17,925 --> 00:26:19,804
Speaker 2: tell you what happened. Two things happened that night. This

564
00:26:19,965 --> 00:26:23,565
Speaker 2: happened two years before I met Camille. I never said

565
00:26:23,604 --> 00:26:25,685
Speaker 2: a word to my father. In that life, you don't

566
00:26:25,725 --> 00:26:30,925
Speaker 2: say anything, you just keep quiet. But if that incident

567
00:26:31,004 --> 00:26:33,324
Speaker 2: didn't happen, I don't think I would have ever walked

568
00:26:33,324 --> 00:26:35,405
Speaker 2: away from the life because I couldn't have hurt my father.

569
00:26:35,564 --> 00:26:38,764
Speaker 2: So I believe in my faith now that the Lord

570
00:26:38,844 --> 00:26:40,764
Speaker 2: showed me two things. Number One, he had to break

571
00:26:40,844 --> 00:26:43,725
Speaker 2: that bond I had with my dad. And number two,

572
00:26:43,844 --> 00:26:46,124
Speaker 2: he showed me that I could face death if I

573
00:26:46,244 --> 00:26:48,925
Speaker 2: had to. So I knew when I walked away that

574
00:26:49,004 --> 00:26:51,924
Speaker 2: I was going to have trouble, but I was prepared

575
00:26:51,965 --> 00:26:55,084
Speaker 2: for it. And I totally believe greg after this thirty

576
00:26:55,205 --> 00:26:58,124
Speaker 2: years now that I'm a Christian, that I've watched how

577
00:26:58,284 --> 00:27:02,764
Speaker 2: God navigates things in people's lives, and I believe that

578
00:27:02,965 --> 00:27:06,884
Speaker 2: was the course he said for me, and it was major.

579
00:27:07,284 --> 00:27:09,965
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's let's talk about that. Okay, So you're

580
00:27:10,044 --> 00:27:15,685
Speaker 1: finally convicted, Rudy Giuliani actually prosecuted you. You're in prison,

581
00:27:16,524 --> 00:27:21,165
Speaker 1: and what's that like to walk into prison knowing you're

582
00:27:21,205 --> 00:27:24,445
Speaker 1: going to spend you know, you were sentenced to ten years, right,

583
00:27:25,365 --> 00:27:27,084
Speaker 1: you got out sooner, but you know you're going to

584
00:27:27,125 --> 00:27:30,604
Speaker 1: spend ten years in prison, and in fact, you spent

585
00:27:30,804 --> 00:27:33,764
Speaker 1: a lot of that time in solitary confinement and a

586
00:27:33,844 --> 00:27:35,125
Speaker 1: place was it called the whole?

587
00:27:35,405 --> 00:27:35,605
Speaker 2: Yeah?

588
00:27:36,445 --> 00:27:39,725
Speaker 1: What is the feeling one has when they strip you

589
00:27:39,885 --> 00:27:43,805
Speaker 1: of your belongings and give you what tell me what happens?

590
00:27:44,244 --> 00:27:46,685
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's very humbling. I can tell you that.

591
00:27:46,844 --> 00:27:46,964
Speaker 1: Now.

592
00:27:46,965 --> 00:27:49,445
Speaker 2: I spent twenty nine months in seven days in solitary.

593
00:27:49,645 --> 00:27:52,524
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the eight years, maes. That look like solitary.

594
00:27:52,725 --> 00:27:54,925
Speaker 2: It's just six x ten six by eight six x ten.

595
00:27:55,004 --> 00:27:56,325
Speaker 1: So is there a bed in there?

596
00:27:57,244 --> 00:27:59,844
Speaker 2: There's a cot. You know, it's like this slimmer than

597
00:27:59,885 --> 00:28:01,244
Speaker 2: this actually with a you.

598
00:28:01,284 --> 00:28:03,845
Speaker 1: Know, this thick toilet.

599
00:28:04,084 --> 00:28:06,685
Speaker 2: You have a toilet and ah that's attached. It's a

600
00:28:06,725 --> 00:28:09,484
Speaker 2: stainus steel toilet and sink that's detached. And then you

601
00:28:09,604 --> 00:28:12,804
Speaker 2: have a little stainus steel kind of a desk you

602
00:28:12,885 --> 00:28:16,284
Speaker 2: know that you have and that's it. You know, independence

603
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:18,804
Speaker 2: are a window sometimes sometimes no.

604
00:28:19,004 --> 00:28:21,125
Speaker 1: And they feed you every day.

605
00:28:21,564 --> 00:28:22,845
Speaker 2: They feed you three meals a day.

606
00:28:22,885 --> 00:28:23,965
Speaker 1: Like what does a meal look like?

607
00:28:24,764 --> 00:28:30,244
Speaker 2: Well, I got I got food poisoning there several times,

608
00:28:30,645 --> 00:28:34,205
Speaker 2: usually from chicken, so I stopped eating. I just would

609
00:28:34,244 --> 00:28:37,324
Speaker 2: eat bananas and cereal and cup of soup because I

610
00:28:37,405 --> 00:28:39,205
Speaker 2: knew that that was sealed, you know, so i'd cup

611
00:28:39,245 --> 00:28:42,325
Speaker 2: of soup and the rice that was sealed. I wouldn't

612
00:28:42,325 --> 00:28:44,045
Speaker 2: need anything. So I lost a lot of weight there,

613
00:28:44,125 --> 00:28:46,844
Speaker 2: but you know, and they push it through the slot

614
00:28:46,885 --> 00:28:48,405
Speaker 2: on the door and you take it and then you

615
00:28:48,485 --> 00:28:51,725
Speaker 2: put your tray out when you finish, and that's it.

616
00:28:51,965 --> 00:28:54,245
Speaker 2: There's no television federal prisons. I don't give you a

617
00:28:54,285 --> 00:28:57,364
Speaker 2: television or anything like that. You got reading material and

618
00:28:57,485 --> 00:28:58,005
Speaker 2: that's your day.

619
00:28:58,245 --> 00:29:04,124
Speaker 1: So you're in this prison cell, isolated and you what

620
00:29:04,445 --> 00:29:08,685
Speaker 1: you start thinking, You start praying, how did you make

621
00:29:08,965 --> 00:29:11,285
Speaker 1: the connection from where you were at at that point

622
00:29:11,965 --> 00:29:14,845
Speaker 1: to seeing your need for a relationship with God.

623
00:29:15,885 --> 00:29:18,485
Speaker 2: Well, what happened to me is, you know, on ten years,

624
00:29:18,725 --> 00:29:21,084
Speaker 2: if you don't get in trouble, they give you good time.

625
00:29:21,245 --> 00:29:24,204
Speaker 2: So when you I did eight years, I didn't get

626
00:29:24,205 --> 00:29:26,325
Speaker 2: in any trouble. That was a maximum good time that

627
00:29:26,405 --> 00:29:28,165
Speaker 2: they were able to give me. So I maxed out.

628
00:29:28,285 --> 00:29:30,844
Speaker 2: I did all the time, but I had got out

629
00:29:30,885 --> 00:29:33,485
Speaker 2: on parole after five years. I was on parole for

630
00:29:33,565 --> 00:29:36,645
Speaker 2: thirteen months, and during that time, the government was trying

631
00:29:36,645 --> 00:29:36,965
Speaker 2: to get.

632
00:29:36,885 --> 00:29:40,565
Speaker 1: Me to cooperate and I also mean rat out people.

633
00:29:40,685 --> 00:29:43,285
Speaker 2: Yes, they wanted me. There was cases they presented to

634
00:29:43,365 --> 00:29:46,725
Speaker 2: me that they knew I knew about, and I wouldn't

635
00:29:46,765 --> 00:29:48,565
Speaker 2: do it. I had other people. I wouldn't you do it.

636
00:29:49,965 --> 00:29:51,164
Speaker 2: I just that's not who I am.

637
00:29:51,285 --> 00:29:53,364
Speaker 1: If you would have done it, would you have not

638
00:29:53,565 --> 00:29:56,005
Speaker 1: have to serve any time? And that would have been

639
00:29:56,084 --> 00:29:56,525
Speaker 1: the end of it.

640
00:29:56,725 --> 00:30:00,364
Speaker 2: Yes, when I first took my plea, they offered me to,

641
00:30:01,325 --> 00:30:03,725
Speaker 2: you know, cooperate, and I said no, So I got

642
00:30:03,765 --> 00:30:04,165
Speaker 2: to tenure.

643
00:30:04,365 --> 00:30:06,445
Speaker 1: If you cooperated the you think you would have been

644
00:30:06,885 --> 00:30:07,685
Speaker 1: whacked killed.

645
00:30:08,485 --> 00:30:10,604
Speaker 2: Well, they would have put me in the witness protection program.

646
00:30:10,765 --> 00:30:13,445
Speaker 2: They would have changed my identity. I can't live like that,

647
00:30:13,725 --> 00:30:17,084
Speaker 2: you know. And it wasn't for me. So I said,

648
00:30:17,565 --> 00:30:19,805
Speaker 2: just give me my sentence. That was it, and I

649
00:30:19,885 --> 00:30:21,964
Speaker 2: had a big fine in restitution too, and I had

650
00:30:22,285 --> 00:30:24,844
Speaker 2: forfeiture close. They took a lot out of me, they

651
00:30:24,925 --> 00:30:28,045
Speaker 2: really did. So I went in. I got the ten

652
00:30:28,125 --> 00:30:30,325
Speaker 2: years since I got out on a parole after five years.

653
00:30:30,365 --> 00:30:32,405
Speaker 2: I was a model prisoner. I didn't have any trouble.

654
00:30:33,365 --> 00:30:35,604
Speaker 2: But during that time it became very public that I

655
00:30:35,765 --> 00:30:37,965
Speaker 2: was walking away, and that's when I had all the trouble,

656
00:30:37,965 --> 00:30:40,045
Speaker 2: and they started locking me down for my own protection

657
00:30:40,205 --> 00:30:43,525
Speaker 2: and moving me different prisons. They put me on what

658
00:30:43,604 --> 00:30:47,005
Speaker 2: they called diesel therapy, where they pick you up at

659
00:30:47,084 --> 00:30:48,845
Speaker 2: two in the morning out of your cell. They put

660
00:30:48,885 --> 00:30:51,644
Speaker 2: you on a plane that the marshals confiscated for somebody,

661
00:30:51,685 --> 00:30:53,124
Speaker 2: and they just moved you to another prison.

662
00:30:53,525 --> 00:30:55,685
Speaker 1: They fly you to another place. Yeah, you don't even

663
00:30:55,805 --> 00:30:56,885
Speaker 1: did you know where you were going?

664
00:30:56,885 --> 00:30:57,604
Speaker 2: I had no idea.

665
00:30:58,125 --> 00:30:59,884
Speaker 1: But when you got there, you knew what prison. I

666
00:30:59,925 --> 00:31:01,405
Speaker 1: knew what I was, Yeah, but you had no way

667
00:31:01,445 --> 00:31:02,205
Speaker 1: to communicate that.

668
00:31:02,565 --> 00:31:05,084
Speaker 2: No, no, And then they put you in solitary for

669
00:31:05,485 --> 00:31:08,204
Speaker 2: two three months, two weeks, you don't know when. Then

670
00:31:08,205 --> 00:31:11,325
Speaker 2: they pick you up again, take you souse. So my wife,

671
00:31:11,445 --> 00:31:12,924
Speaker 2: she didn't even know where I am. They don't let

672
00:31:12,965 --> 00:31:16,245
Speaker 2: anybody know for security reasons, they say, so she would

673
00:31:16,285 --> 00:31:18,485
Speaker 2: try to call the Bureau of Prisons in Washington find

674
00:31:18,485 --> 00:31:20,485
Speaker 2: out where I am. So they put me on that

675
00:31:20,565 --> 00:31:23,285
Speaker 2: for about eight months. They just kept running me around

676
00:31:23,645 --> 00:31:25,844
Speaker 2: and they were trying to weaken me so I would cooperate.

677
00:31:27,005 --> 00:31:30,364
Speaker 2: I get out on parole, and during that thirteen months parole,

678
00:31:30,405 --> 00:31:32,685
Speaker 2: it was a very very bad time. I mean, people

679
00:31:32,725 --> 00:31:35,765
Speaker 2: will I mean I came home one day and the

680
00:31:35,925 --> 00:31:38,844
Speaker 2: FBI was in my house and they told Cammy that

681
00:31:38,965 --> 00:31:40,565
Speaker 2: if I didn't leave by the weekend, I was going

682
00:31:40,645 --> 00:31:42,845
Speaker 2: to be dead because they had sent some guys out

683
00:31:42,885 --> 00:31:45,525
Speaker 2: to kill me. And the FBI, whether they like you

684
00:31:45,645 --> 00:31:47,525
Speaker 2: or not, they're obligated to tell you if your life

685
00:31:47,604 --> 00:31:48,164
Speaker 2: is in danger.

686
00:31:48,885 --> 00:31:49,765
Speaker 1: So she was nervous.

687
00:31:49,844 --> 00:31:52,604
Speaker 2: I said, don't believe these guys, but she was. So

688
00:31:52,725 --> 00:31:54,685
Speaker 2: we picked up and we went to Palm Springs for

689
00:31:54,725 --> 00:31:56,925
Speaker 2: a couple of days, and then they told me, you know,

690
00:31:57,005 --> 00:31:59,285
Speaker 2: the threat is over, come on back. I don't even

691
00:31:59,285 --> 00:32:00,525
Speaker 2: know if it was real or not, that they were

692
00:32:00,604 --> 00:32:02,604
Speaker 2: just playing a game with me to get me more scared.

693
00:32:02,645 --> 00:32:03,205
Speaker 1: I'm not sure.

694
00:32:03,405 --> 00:32:06,085
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I had to satisfy her, so we left.

695
00:32:06,725 --> 00:32:11,685
Speaker 2: And then after thirteen months they violated my parole and

696
00:32:11,805 --> 00:32:14,165
Speaker 2: I was walking out of a bank in Brentwood, and

697
00:32:14,485 --> 00:32:16,965
Speaker 2: they picked me up. They leaned all my bank accounts,

698
00:32:17,045 --> 00:32:19,925
Speaker 2: took every penny I had, They took my car, drove

699
00:32:19,965 --> 00:32:21,965
Speaker 2: it away. They went to the house with a search warrant,

700
00:32:22,325 --> 00:32:24,965
Speaker 2: they cleaned, They went into cammage perse and took all

701
00:32:25,005 --> 00:32:27,965
Speaker 2: her money out of the perch. We had zero money. Wow,

702
00:32:28,125 --> 00:32:30,805
Speaker 2: And we had two babies at that point. And she

703
00:32:30,925 --> 00:32:32,965
Speaker 2: had a breakdown on me that she couldn't visit me

704
00:32:33,045 --> 00:32:35,365
Speaker 2: for seven or eight weeks because she thought they told

705
00:32:35,405 --> 00:32:38,245
Speaker 2: her I would never see the street again. It was done,

706
00:32:39,084 --> 00:32:41,084
Speaker 2: and they would driving me down to the federal lockup

707
00:32:41,245 --> 00:32:43,884
Speaker 2: in La the jail, going to transport me to.

708
00:32:44,084 --> 00:32:47,365
Speaker 1: Did they do this well, Oh, they were just still

709
00:32:47,405 --> 00:32:49,045
Speaker 1: trying to get information out of it. Yeah.

710
00:32:49,485 --> 00:32:51,925
Speaker 2: It was a nonsense violation. It was nothing to it.

711
00:32:53,525 --> 00:32:55,165
Speaker 2: But that night when they put me in a hole,

712
00:32:55,245 --> 00:32:58,125
Speaker 2: they told me, we're indicting you on another major racketeering case.

713
00:32:58,245 --> 00:33:00,565
Speaker 2: We violated your parole, we took every penny you have.

714
00:33:01,165 --> 00:33:04,565
Speaker 2: You'll never see the street again. So they throw me

715
00:33:04,604 --> 00:33:08,644
Speaker 2: in a hole. And I have to say, I'm a

716
00:33:08,725 --> 00:33:12,045
Speaker 2: pretty resourceful guy. I always figure I can get something done.

717
00:33:12,685 --> 00:33:15,005
Speaker 2: You know, you're not going to stop me. But that

718
00:33:15,205 --> 00:33:18,045
Speaker 2: night I was out of answers. I said, they took

719
00:33:18,084 --> 00:33:20,965
Speaker 2: all my money. I said, I can't fight another case,

720
00:33:21,285 --> 00:33:23,964
Speaker 2: rico case. You can't beat it with a public defender.

721
00:33:24,084 --> 00:33:28,485
Speaker 2: I spent millions of defending myself. I said, they're not

722
00:33:28,525 --> 00:33:30,164
Speaker 2: going to put me out on the yard. I'm going

723
00:33:30,245 --> 00:33:32,165
Speaker 2: to spend the rest of my life in this whole,

724
00:33:32,725 --> 00:33:34,084
Speaker 2: and I'm going to lose the girl I did all

725
00:33:34,125 --> 00:33:35,405
Speaker 2: of this for. She's not going to wait for me.

726
00:33:35,485 --> 00:33:38,045
Speaker 2: She's twenty seven years old. She waited five years, thirteen

727
00:33:38,084 --> 00:33:41,445
Speaker 2: months on the street. So I was done. And I'll

728
00:33:41,445 --> 00:33:43,005
Speaker 2: tell you how serious it was for me. There was

729
00:33:43,084 --> 00:33:46,844
Speaker 2: a point that night when I used to demean people

730
00:33:46,925 --> 00:33:49,285
Speaker 2: that were suicidal. I said they were weak and I

731
00:33:49,285 --> 00:33:53,445
Speaker 2: don't face up to their troubles. I don't do that anymore.

732
00:33:54,604 --> 00:33:58,205
Speaker 2: I wasn't suicidal, but I was so broken. I really

733
00:33:58,285 --> 00:33:59,805
Speaker 2: want to lay my head on that count and not

734
00:33:59,965 --> 00:34:02,285
Speaker 2: wake up. Because there was two paint. I visited my

735
00:34:02,325 --> 00:34:05,405
Speaker 2: father over twenty years. I did all that time. I said,

736
00:34:05,725 --> 00:34:08,085
Speaker 2: I'm going to put my family through that. I'd rather

737
00:34:08,245 --> 00:34:10,484
Speaker 2: just take me. I really wanted to just close my eyes.

738
00:34:10,525 --> 00:34:12,565
Speaker 2: And you know, did you ever get to a point

739
00:34:12,565 --> 00:34:15,685
Speaker 2: where it's too painful to think, you don't even want

740
00:34:15,725 --> 00:34:19,165
Speaker 2: to think. And I'm laying there and I'm just done.

741
00:34:19,565 --> 00:34:22,965
Speaker 2: And then a prison gud walked by myself and he said,

742
00:34:23,405 --> 00:34:25,645
Speaker 2: you don't look good. He opened a flap on the

743
00:34:25,725 --> 00:34:27,404
Speaker 2: door and I said, get away from me. I don't

744
00:34:27,405 --> 00:34:29,285
Speaker 2: want to see you. I chased him. I said, close

745
00:34:29,365 --> 00:34:32,125
Speaker 2: the latch and leave me alone. And he came back

746
00:34:32,165 --> 00:34:35,205
Speaker 2: about maybe two minutes later, and he pushes a Bible

747
00:34:35,245 --> 00:34:39,125
Speaker 2: through the slot on the door. And my immediate reaction

748
00:34:39,365 --> 00:34:41,685
Speaker 2: because Camille and her mother were talking to me about

749
00:34:41,725 --> 00:34:44,884
Speaker 2: the Lord, and I was, you know, I respected them

750
00:34:44,965 --> 00:34:47,885
Speaker 2: because they were diligent in their faith. I saw it

751
00:34:48,005 --> 00:34:50,404
Speaker 2: was real, so I respected it, but I wasn't really

752
00:34:50,445 --> 00:34:52,805
Speaker 2: buying into it. I said, okay, you know I respect you.

753
00:34:55,285 --> 00:34:58,005
Speaker 2: And I was just really angry with God. I said,

754
00:34:58,005 --> 00:35:00,444
Speaker 2: I married a Christian girl, I walked away from that life,

755
00:35:00,525 --> 00:35:03,125
Speaker 2: and you're supposed to be a great, wonderful God. Look

756
00:35:03,165 --> 00:35:05,085
Speaker 2: what you're doing to me. And I kind of, I said,

757
00:35:05,165 --> 00:35:07,165
Speaker 2: came out out of me. So I jumped off the

758
00:35:07,245 --> 00:35:09,005
Speaker 2: con and picked up the Bible and just slammed it

759
00:35:09,045 --> 00:35:12,605
Speaker 2: against the wall. I was really angry. And then I

760
00:35:12,725 --> 00:35:14,605
Speaker 2: picked it up and I said, you know what, I

761
00:35:14,725 --> 00:35:18,205
Speaker 2: got nothing but enemies. Everybody hates me tonight, and there's

762
00:35:18,245 --> 00:35:20,045
Speaker 2: only me and God in this cell. Because I believe,

763
00:35:20,205 --> 00:35:21,805
Speaker 2: I mean, it makes sense to believe in God. I

764
00:35:21,845 --> 00:35:24,685
Speaker 2: believed in God. And I just picked up the book

765
00:35:24,725 --> 00:35:27,045
Speaker 2: and I said, you know what, I need some help, man.

766
00:35:27,205 --> 00:35:28,765
Speaker 2: And I looked up at the ceiling and I said,

767
00:35:28,805 --> 00:35:30,965
Speaker 2: give me something to make me feel better. I grew

768
00:35:31,045 --> 00:35:34,125
Speaker 2: up a Catholic, and I don't ever remember reading the Bible.

769
00:35:34,245 --> 00:35:37,205
Speaker 2: As a Catholic. I remember the Catechism, the priest read

770
00:35:37,245 --> 00:35:39,605
Speaker 2: the Bible from the pulpit, the Gospel, and I was

771
00:35:39,645 --> 00:35:41,805
Speaker 2: an altar boy, but I don't remember reading the Bible.

772
00:35:41,885 --> 00:35:44,765
Speaker 2: Maybe I did, I don't remember. So I just didn't

773
00:35:44,805 --> 00:35:47,045
Speaker 2: know where to begin, and I just held it open

774
00:35:47,285 --> 00:35:50,525
Speaker 2: and it opened up to the Book of Proverbs, and

775
00:35:50,605 --> 00:35:53,485
Speaker 2: I started reading it, and I was just attracted by

776
00:35:53,525 --> 00:35:56,885
Speaker 2: the brilliance of Solomon. I said, Wow, some of the

777
00:35:57,165 --> 00:35:59,405
Speaker 2: quotes that he said in there were exactly what my

778
00:35:59,485 --> 00:36:02,005
Speaker 2: father taught me. Learn how to keep your mouth shut,

779
00:36:02,165 --> 00:36:04,805
Speaker 2: you know, don't speak when you have nothing to say,

780
00:36:04,845 --> 00:36:06,645
Speaker 2: you know, things like that. So I said, wow, my

781
00:36:06,765 --> 00:36:08,965
Speaker 2: father was a pretty smart guy. I wonder if he

782
00:36:09,045 --> 00:36:11,645
Speaker 2: ever read the book. And then I came to a

783
00:36:11,765 --> 00:36:13,964
Speaker 2: verse Greg that just stopped me cold. And I don't

784
00:36:14,005 --> 00:36:16,805
Speaker 2: know why, you know, and I've told people this, I

785
00:36:16,885 --> 00:36:19,525
Speaker 2: don't have any special connection with guy. He doesn't speak

786
00:36:19,525 --> 00:36:21,565
Speaker 2: to me audibly. I've never seen him in a dream,

787
00:36:21,645 --> 00:36:25,285
Speaker 2: But now he speaks to my heart. But that night

788
00:36:25,845 --> 00:36:30,365
Speaker 2: something just got me. Proverbs chapter sixteen, verse seven. You

789
00:36:30,445 --> 00:36:32,685
Speaker 2: know when a man's ways are pleasing to the Lord,

790
00:36:33,045 --> 00:36:35,965
Speaker 2: even his enemies or at peace with him. And so

791
00:36:36,005 --> 00:36:38,725
Speaker 2: it was the enemy's part that got me. And then

792
00:36:38,805 --> 00:36:41,005
Speaker 2: for some reason, I think it was like the Holy

793
00:36:41,085 --> 00:36:44,845
Speaker 2: Spirit said, who are you kidding? You're a mobster. You

794
00:36:45,005 --> 00:36:47,365
Speaker 2: married a Christian girl. That doesn't make you a Christian.

795
00:36:47,445 --> 00:36:49,805
Speaker 2: All these things went through my head. And then the

796
00:36:49,885 --> 00:36:54,605
Speaker 2: last thing I remember being thinking was, but if you

797
00:36:54,725 --> 00:36:57,005
Speaker 2: did turn to me, I can take care of your enemies.

798
00:36:58,205 --> 00:37:00,844
Speaker 2: And it really meant something. And I started to read

799
00:37:00,925 --> 00:37:03,525
Speaker 2: on and then another verse came to me, which became

800
00:37:03,605 --> 00:37:06,364
Speaker 2: the verse of my life. You know, really, it's Proverbs three,

801
00:37:06,485 --> 00:37:08,605
Speaker 2: verses five and six. Trust in the Lord with all

802
00:37:08,685 --> 00:37:11,445
Speaker 2: your heart, lean out on your own understanding, in all

803
00:37:11,525 --> 00:37:14,725
Speaker 2: your ways acknowledge him and he will make your path straight.

804
00:37:15,685 --> 00:37:18,844
Speaker 2: But that night I said, Okay, God, this all sounds good,

805
00:37:18,925 --> 00:37:23,205
Speaker 2: but you know what, I trusted my father. I took

806
00:37:23,245 --> 00:37:25,605
Speaker 2: a blood oat. That was a good mob guy. Look

807
00:37:25,645 --> 00:37:29,085
Speaker 2: where I got me. Show me. And because I had

808
00:37:29,165 --> 00:37:31,365
Speaker 2: nothing but time on my hands twenty nine months, to

809
00:37:31,445 --> 00:37:35,765
Speaker 2: be exact, I dove into the Bible. My prison Bible

810
00:37:35,805 --> 00:37:38,485
Speaker 2: has more of my notes than scripture. I write on everything,

811
00:37:39,125 --> 00:37:41,325
Speaker 2: and I had my wife's sending me in books on

812
00:37:41,405 --> 00:37:44,005
Speaker 2: every faith because that's all I had to do. And

813
00:37:44,085 --> 00:37:45,525
Speaker 2: I wanted to. I said, you know what I mean,

814
00:37:45,605 --> 00:37:47,685
Speaker 2: dying here, if there really is a heaven and a hell,

815
00:37:48,045 --> 00:37:49,645
Speaker 2: I want to know if I'm going one place or

816
00:37:49,685 --> 00:37:51,805
Speaker 2: the other. So and you know what else I did.

817
00:37:52,245 --> 00:37:55,685
Speaker 2: I developed a very healthy fear of hell living in

818
00:37:55,805 --> 00:37:58,165
Speaker 2: solitary confinement. And I've always said it's good to have

819
00:37:58,245 --> 00:37:59,845
Speaker 2: a healthy fear of things that are bad for you.

820
00:38:00,925 --> 00:38:04,045
Speaker 2: And it just motivated me to really search for the truth.

821
00:38:04,565 --> 00:38:07,805
Speaker 2: And great guy came out of a solid believer in

822
00:38:08,005 --> 00:38:10,245
Speaker 2: the Bible and Jesus as my savior. And I've told

823
00:38:10,245 --> 00:38:13,245
Speaker 2: people this, I'm not the best Christian by any means,

824
00:38:13,365 --> 00:38:15,925
Speaker 2: but my faith is rock solid. Nobody can ever tell

825
00:38:15,965 --> 00:38:19,844
Speaker 2: me anything differently because of what I've researched, what I've

826
00:38:19,885 --> 00:38:22,645
Speaker 2: seen in my life, and what I've seen God has

827
00:38:22,725 --> 00:38:26,125
Speaker 2: done in other people's lives. Rock solid. So my belief

828
00:38:26,245 --> 00:38:29,885
Speaker 2: is never in jeopardy no matter what happens. And I

829
00:38:30,045 --> 00:38:31,885
Speaker 2: say this, and I know you can relate to this,

830
00:38:32,405 --> 00:38:35,005
Speaker 2: even if I would lose one of my children. At

831
00:38:35,045 --> 00:38:37,565
Speaker 2: this point in time, I understand we live in a

832
00:38:37,605 --> 00:38:41,445
Speaker 2: fallen world. I understand God never promised us heaven on earth.

833
00:38:41,485 --> 00:38:44,285
Speaker 2: He promised us heaven and heaven. I understand the Bible

834
00:38:44,365 --> 00:38:46,885
Speaker 2: is very clear we're going to go through heartaches and hardships.

835
00:38:48,045 --> 00:38:50,805
Speaker 2: Is very honest in that regard. My faith would never

836
00:38:51,325 --> 00:38:55,685
Speaker 2: I don't think my faith could ever be rocked, and

837
00:38:55,805 --> 00:38:57,765
Speaker 2: hopefully I'm a better Christian as a result of that.

838
00:38:58,285 --> 00:39:01,005
Speaker 1: When I first met you, it was years ago. My goodness,

839
00:39:01,205 --> 00:39:02,404
Speaker 1: was it twenty five years ago.

840
00:39:03,045 --> 00:39:04,805
Speaker 2: I came out in ninety six, and that's when I

841
00:39:04,885 --> 00:39:05,965
Speaker 2: came to see right.

842
00:39:06,125 --> 00:39:08,925
Speaker 1: So someone said to me, there's this guy named Michael Frenzies.

843
00:39:09,445 --> 00:39:12,525
Speaker 1: He was in the mafia and he wants to meet you.

844
00:39:12,645 --> 00:39:14,445
Speaker 1: He said, he used to listen to you in prison.

845
00:39:14,525 --> 00:39:16,485
Speaker 1: First of all, I thought, no guy in the mafia

846
00:39:17,485 --> 00:39:19,805
Speaker 1: could be out. I mean, he would you know, they

847
00:39:19,885 --> 00:39:22,765
Speaker 1: probably would have killed him, because I'd seen movies about

848
00:39:22,765 --> 00:39:25,085
Speaker 1: the Maffia and I was an expert. I'm kidding. It's like,

849
00:39:25,525 --> 00:39:28,045
Speaker 1: don't they whack them or something like that. And I said,

850
00:39:28,125 --> 00:39:30,445
Speaker 1: did he use the phrase sleeps with the fishes at

851
00:39:30,445 --> 00:39:32,725
Speaker 1: any point? Or whack it? So when I met you,

852
00:39:32,925 --> 00:39:35,405
Speaker 1: I was I was suspicious. I thought, what is this guy?

853
00:39:35,485 --> 00:39:37,525
Speaker 1: And you know, I don't believe this because you know,

854
00:39:37,645 --> 00:39:41,325
Speaker 1: sometimes people have what we call a testimony and they exaggerate,

855
00:39:41,565 --> 00:39:43,924
Speaker 1: they exaggerate what they used to do. And I thought,

856
00:39:44,005 --> 00:39:47,125
Speaker 1: there's no way. And then I did a little research

857
00:39:47,205 --> 00:39:50,445
Speaker 1: on you and it was all true and and you

858
00:39:50,605 --> 00:39:54,245
Speaker 1: were really that guy. But somehow you were listening to

859
00:39:54,365 --> 00:39:55,525
Speaker 1: me when you were in the hole.

860
00:39:55,765 --> 00:39:59,125
Speaker 2: I had a sony walk man, yes, and I stumbled

861
00:39:59,165 --> 00:40:03,005
Speaker 2: across you and listening to your morning show that you had,

862
00:40:03,765 --> 00:40:06,205
Speaker 2: and I'm reading the Bible and I'm listening to you,

863
00:40:06,325 --> 00:40:07,645
Speaker 2: and you have I have to say this, you have

864
00:40:07,725 --> 00:40:12,845
Speaker 2: a very soothing, honest voice, you know, And when I

865
00:40:12,965 --> 00:40:17,485
Speaker 2: had trouble with interpretation on some of the scripture, miraculously

866
00:40:17,805 --> 00:40:19,405
Speaker 2: you would I you would clear it up?

867
00:40:19,565 --> 00:40:19,965
Speaker 1: Oh wow?

868
00:40:20,405 --> 00:40:23,765
Speaker 2: And I was listening to you every single morning, every

869
00:40:23,805 --> 00:40:26,485
Speaker 2: single morning. So then I find out you. I knew

870
00:40:26,485 --> 00:40:28,325
Speaker 2: you were in Riverside. From that, I said, I got

871
00:40:28,445 --> 00:40:30,845
Speaker 2: to go meet Greg and thank him, and that was

872
00:40:30,925 --> 00:40:33,045
Speaker 2: my sole reason for going to see that's great.

873
00:40:33,085 --> 00:40:36,885
Speaker 1: I remember that too. So but you told me there

874
00:40:37,005 --> 00:40:41,525
Speaker 1: was something. There's a scene in the Godfather. When was

875
00:40:41,605 --> 00:40:44,365
Speaker 1: his name? Who was the guy who was the singer

876
00:40:44,525 --> 00:40:48,725
Speaker 1: Tony Fantine or something? Yeah, yeah, he goes to Vito

877
00:40:48,845 --> 00:40:53,165
Speaker 1: Corleone at Vito's daughter's wedding and he can't get a

878
00:40:53,245 --> 00:40:55,885
Speaker 1: part in the film and he starts to cry, and Vito,

879
00:40:56,085 --> 00:40:59,045
Speaker 1: like I think, he slaps him and says, be a man, right.

880
00:40:59,325 --> 00:41:01,085
Speaker 1: So it's a big thing to be a man, right?

881
00:41:01,645 --> 00:41:04,485
Speaker 1: Is that true in the mob life for maybe an

882
00:41:04,525 --> 00:41:07,205
Speaker 1: Italian culture as well in general, it's just be a man,

883
00:41:07,325 --> 00:41:10,525
Speaker 1: be masculine, right. So, but you told me there was

884
00:41:10,605 --> 00:41:14,965
Speaker 1: something about reading about Jesus and his suffering us that

885
00:41:15,685 --> 00:41:19,205
Speaker 1: you realized this is the ultimate man. I mean, even

886
00:41:19,845 --> 00:41:24,365
Speaker 1: just Pilot said of Jesus, behold the man. What was

887
00:41:24,445 --> 00:41:29,285
Speaker 1: it about that aspect? The masculinity of Christ in laying

888
00:41:29,365 --> 00:41:31,645
Speaker 1: his life down for us. That kind of appealed to you.

889
00:41:32,125 --> 00:41:34,045
Speaker 2: Well, here's what happened. You know, from the time I

890
00:41:34,165 --> 00:41:36,405
Speaker 2: was a kid, all I ever heard my father say

891
00:41:36,565 --> 00:41:38,445
Speaker 2: is the standard you have to live up to in

892
00:41:38,525 --> 00:41:40,965
Speaker 2: life is be a man's man. Not only a man,

893
00:41:41,045 --> 00:41:43,125
Speaker 2: but a manage man. You know, it's one thing to

894
00:41:43,165 --> 00:41:45,605
Speaker 2: be a man, but to have other men really respect you.

895
00:41:45,965 --> 00:41:47,845
Speaker 2: You know, you got to have integrity, treat women and

896
00:41:47,925 --> 00:41:51,045
Speaker 2: children the right way. He stressed it. Well, that's all true,

897
00:41:51,085 --> 00:41:53,645
Speaker 2: isn't Yeah. Yeah, And then when I got into the life,

898
00:41:53,725 --> 00:41:56,125
Speaker 2: the same thing. We're men of honor, we're men's men.

899
00:41:56,445 --> 00:41:57,765
Speaker 2: We're above all the other men.

900
00:41:58,165 --> 00:41:58,285
Speaker 1: You know.

901
00:41:58,405 --> 00:42:00,725
Speaker 2: The one thing about that life, and this is kind

902
00:42:00,765 --> 00:42:05,085
Speaker 2: of the meaning. But to a made guy, anybody that's

903
00:42:05,165 --> 00:42:08,085
Speaker 2: not a made guy is a sucker. You could be

904
00:42:08,165 --> 00:42:10,085
Speaker 2: the president of unitedtiated, you're going to be the pope.

905
00:42:10,165 --> 00:42:11,924
Speaker 2: You're not a made guy. You didn't take that oath.

906
00:42:12,005 --> 00:42:15,205
Speaker 2: You're a sucker. We're men about it. We're men above

907
00:42:15,245 --> 00:42:19,045
Speaker 2: all men. That's what the life teaches you. So growing

908
00:42:19,125 --> 00:42:22,485
Speaker 2: up as a Catholic, and this is nobody's fault, I

909
00:42:22,525 --> 00:42:25,885
Speaker 2: always had this wimpy view of Jesus. He's hanging on

910
00:42:26,005 --> 00:42:28,805
Speaker 2: a cross, and nobody ever talked about his manhood that

911
00:42:28,965 --> 00:42:33,805
Speaker 2: I recall. So when I finally that night it actually started,

912
00:42:33,845 --> 00:42:36,725
Speaker 2: I said, you know what, Jesus, I want to see

913
00:42:36,765 --> 00:42:39,165
Speaker 2: what kind of guy he was. So I kind of

914
00:42:39,205 --> 00:42:42,245
Speaker 2: separated his deity when I started reading the Gospels, and

915
00:42:42,405 --> 00:42:44,925
Speaker 2: I just looked at Jesus of Nazareth and his manhood,

916
00:42:45,645 --> 00:42:47,925
Speaker 2: and that's what sold me around. And you know, it

917
00:42:48,005 --> 00:42:51,005
Speaker 2: was even intensified when I went to Jerusalem and I

918
00:42:51,085 --> 00:42:54,925
Speaker 2: walked to Via della Rosa, and I always got the

919
00:42:55,045 --> 00:42:57,925
Speaker 2: chills when I saw the three times that he fell.

920
00:42:58,645 --> 00:43:00,805
Speaker 2: I said, how did he get up carrying that across?

921
00:43:01,525 --> 00:43:03,965
Speaker 2: So his strength and then of course his wisdom, and

922
00:43:04,005 --> 00:43:06,365
Speaker 2: we can go through the whole character the rest of Jesus.

923
00:43:06,445 --> 00:43:09,405
Speaker 2: So that sold me on his manhood. So you know,

924
00:43:09,485 --> 00:43:11,005
Speaker 2: I even said to myself, I said, you know what,

925
00:43:12,765 --> 00:43:15,085
Speaker 2: if you emulate Jesus, try to be like him as

926
00:43:15,165 --> 00:43:17,525
Speaker 2: a man throughout your life, you're going to be a

927
00:43:17,605 --> 00:43:19,965
Speaker 2: better person. Everybody's going to benefit from you. And then

928
00:43:20,005 --> 00:43:22,685
Speaker 2: I said, well, if I'm mistaken and he's not the

929
00:43:22,765 --> 00:43:24,965
Speaker 2: savior of the world and I'm dead, I'm dead anyway.

930
00:43:24,725 --> 00:43:25,844
Speaker 1: But what did I have to lose.

931
00:43:26,325 --> 00:43:30,205
Speaker 2: Emulating Jesus is a win win situation. That's a powerful

932
00:43:30,245 --> 00:43:33,725
Speaker 2: message to men, right I said, you have nothing to lose.

933
00:43:34,205 --> 00:43:36,005
Speaker 2: He's the greatest man that ever walked the face of

934
00:43:36,045 --> 00:43:38,325
Speaker 2: the earth, the only perfect man, perfect in every way.

935
00:43:38,845 --> 00:43:41,885
Speaker 2: That's who should be the person you want to emulate.

936
00:43:41,885 --> 00:43:43,845
Speaker 1: It seems like we have a real problem in the culture,

937
00:43:43,965 --> 00:43:48,565
Speaker 1: especially young men today, that that they're just you know,

938
00:43:49,285 --> 00:43:55,805
Speaker 1: they call it toxic masculinity, which is ridiculous, and men

939
00:43:55,885 --> 00:44:02,365
Speaker 1: are so diminished and denigrated, and it seems like a

940
00:44:02,525 --> 00:44:06,765
Speaker 1: generation of young men are looking for you know, I

941
00:44:06,885 --> 00:44:09,085
Speaker 1: did an interview and you've done interview what you did

942
00:44:09,125 --> 00:44:12,165
Speaker 1: a podcast with them as well. Jordan Peterson, he's been

943
00:44:12,245 --> 00:44:15,365
Speaker 1: a powerful voice to young people and to young men

944
00:44:15,405 --> 00:44:18,685
Speaker 1: in particular, because maybe he tells them things their dad

945
00:44:18,765 --> 00:44:20,965
Speaker 1: didn't tell him. Maybe they didn't have a dad growing up.

946
00:44:20,965 --> 00:44:22,965
Speaker 1: I don't know, but like clean your room, that's kind

947
00:44:23,005 --> 00:44:25,205
Speaker 1: of a thing that you know, just start there, start

948
00:44:25,285 --> 00:44:28,445
Speaker 1: with simple things in life. But I think that young

949
00:44:28,525 --> 00:44:31,965
Speaker 1: men today are looking for masculine role models. You know,

950
00:44:32,045 --> 00:44:34,725
Speaker 1: maybe it's because of a lack of fathers and our culture,

951
00:44:35,125 --> 00:44:38,445
Speaker 1: which is an epidemic one experts said, where we are

952
00:44:38,525 --> 00:44:41,565
Speaker 1: in danger of becoming a fatherless society. And you can

953
00:44:41,605 --> 00:44:45,725
Speaker 1: almost take every societal ill in America today and trace

954
00:44:45,805 --> 00:44:48,645
Speaker 1: it to the breakdown of the family, specifically to the

955
00:44:48,765 --> 00:44:51,885
Speaker 1: absence of fathers. Yes, so what do you think, what

956
00:44:51,965 --> 00:44:55,565
Speaker 1: would you say to someone that's looking to this to

957
00:44:55,685 --> 00:44:58,885
Speaker 1: the idea of being a mascular role model if they

958
00:44:58,925 --> 00:45:01,365
Speaker 1: don't have a dad, where would they find such a person?

959
00:45:01,765 --> 00:45:04,085
Speaker 2: Well, that's up to all of us. You know, Greg,

960
00:45:04,165 --> 00:45:05,645
Speaker 2: I spent time in prison with all a lot of

961
00:45:05,725 --> 00:45:08,364
Speaker 2: young people coming into the system twenty twenty one years old.

962
00:45:08,885 --> 00:45:10,725
Speaker 2: You can write the same script for every one of them.

963
00:45:11,085 --> 00:45:14,085
Speaker 2: Broken home, no father, follow every single one of them.

964
00:45:14,525 --> 00:45:16,805
Speaker 2: They gravitate to the street, they get to the local

965
00:45:16,885 --> 00:45:20,245
Speaker 2: drug dealer, gangbanger, end up in prison. They have no guidance.

966
00:45:21,325 --> 00:45:23,845
Speaker 2: And I believe we as a society, I say, we

967
00:45:24,005 --> 00:45:27,005
Speaker 2: created the environment that they're living with, and we owe

968
00:45:27,085 --> 00:45:30,965
Speaker 2: something back to these young people. Unfortunately, there's a section

969
00:45:31,125 --> 00:45:35,005
Speaker 2: of society that wants the dumb down manhood. And I

970
00:45:35,125 --> 00:45:37,205
Speaker 2: tell these young people, and I tell even women, now,

971
00:45:37,805 --> 00:45:39,525
Speaker 2: if a man is acting like a man, it's not

972
00:45:39,765 --> 00:45:42,645
Speaker 2: demeaning to women. It's a benefit to women. They do

973
00:45:42,765 --> 00:45:45,165
Speaker 2: what they're supposed to be doing as a man. They provide,

974
00:45:45,205 --> 00:45:48,525
Speaker 2: they protect, they nourish, you know, they take care of

975
00:45:49,085 --> 00:45:51,445
Speaker 2: And I think that's the message that we have to

976
00:45:51,525 --> 00:45:55,125
Speaker 2: give young men and it resonates, but we have to

977
00:45:55,205 --> 00:45:58,565
Speaker 2: do it because where do they go? And I totally

978
00:45:58,605 --> 00:46:01,805
Speaker 2: agree it's the breakup of the family that's all these issues.

979
00:46:01,525 --> 00:46:04,925
Speaker 1: That were And just to not forget the ladies. I mean,

980
00:46:05,085 --> 00:46:08,925
Speaker 1: really many ways, the hero of your story is Camille Cammy.

981
00:46:09,645 --> 00:46:11,965
Speaker 1: I mean, she stood by you through thick and things.

982
00:46:12,365 --> 00:46:14,525
Speaker 1: And I can say, you know, because you had your

983
00:46:14,645 --> 00:46:17,165
Speaker 1: challenges growing up and you talked about the problems in

984
00:46:17,285 --> 00:46:20,245
Speaker 1: your family. But I look at your family today. You know,

985
00:46:20,365 --> 00:46:22,525
Speaker 1: you're the head of your family, and I look at

986
00:46:22,565 --> 00:46:26,245
Speaker 1: the wonderful family and how you've loved them and nurtured

987
00:46:26,325 --> 00:46:29,005
Speaker 1: them and all the things you're saying a man should do.

988
00:46:29,165 --> 00:46:32,805
Speaker 1: You've done that and a beautiful family. And your wife

989
00:46:34,405 --> 00:46:36,725
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what gave her the

990
00:46:36,805 --> 00:46:40,245
Speaker 1: strength to stand with you through years of all of

991
00:46:40,365 --> 00:46:43,364
Speaker 1: these legal challenges and your incarceration.

992
00:46:44,205 --> 00:46:46,125
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I mean, first of all, she will

993
00:46:46,205 --> 00:46:49,565
Speaker 2: tell you I love my husband. But if God wasn't

994
00:46:49,605 --> 00:46:51,645
Speaker 2: in the foundation of a marriage. I wouldn't have made

995
00:46:51,645 --> 00:46:53,445
Speaker 2: it through. So it was her faith that gave her

996
00:46:53,485 --> 00:46:55,445
Speaker 2: this one hundred percent of her faith. And I was

997
00:46:55,565 --> 00:46:58,205
Speaker 2: very fortunate and that her mother and her grandmother were

998
00:46:58,245 --> 00:46:58,805
Speaker 2: strong women.

999
00:46:58,925 --> 00:46:59,205
Speaker 1: Wife.

1000
00:46:59,805 --> 00:47:03,325
Speaker 2: You know, greg I one time, this was early on

1001
00:47:03,845 --> 00:47:06,165
Speaker 2: when they finally started to know who I was. Yeah,

1002
00:47:07,125 --> 00:47:09,405
Speaker 2: I told her mother, I said, listen, I'm going to

1003
00:47:09,445 --> 00:47:12,645
Speaker 2: bring some baggage into your daughter's life. Not intentionally, it's

1004
00:47:12,725 --> 00:47:15,085
Speaker 2: just from my past, I said, But I promise you

1005
00:47:15,165 --> 00:47:17,645
Speaker 2: I'll never hurt her. I love her. She became my

1006
00:47:17,765 --> 00:47:20,645
Speaker 2: strongest ally, and when I went back into jail the

1007
00:47:20,725 --> 00:47:23,125
Speaker 2: second time, she was the one that kept Cammi strong

1008
00:47:23,405 --> 00:47:26,605
Speaker 2: because it was very difficult, very difficult. But I'm going

1009
00:47:26,645 --> 00:47:27,925
Speaker 2: to be honest with you. My wife and I have

1010
00:47:28,005 --> 00:47:31,765
Speaker 2: partners in every way. She does her job wonderfully. I

1011
00:47:31,925 --> 00:47:34,885
Speaker 2: do my job, and I put her on a pedestal

1012
00:47:35,165 --> 00:47:37,965
Speaker 2: because she deserves that. And whatever she wants from me

1013
00:47:38,445 --> 00:47:43,045
Speaker 2: she got. And obviously she doesn't ask anything that you

1014
00:47:43,125 --> 00:47:46,765
Speaker 2: know would I shouldn't give her. But as far as

1015
00:47:46,805 --> 00:47:48,965
Speaker 2: I'm concerned, she's a better person than I am, and

1016
00:47:49,125 --> 00:47:51,885
Speaker 2: she's she's more perceptive than I am. I have to

1017
00:47:51,965 --> 00:47:54,884
Speaker 2: tell you. You know, she'll know when somebody you should

1018
00:47:54,925 --> 00:47:56,965
Speaker 2: because you know, I'm an entrepreneur kind of guy, and

1019
00:47:57,045 --> 00:47:59,685
Speaker 2: I get involved with people, and she knows somebody right

1020
00:47:59,725 --> 00:48:01,364
Speaker 2: away says, I don't want you dealing with that guy.

1021
00:48:01,525 --> 00:48:01,725
Speaker 1: Really.

1022
00:48:01,885 --> 00:48:04,924
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she's she's right ninety nine percent of the time,

1023
00:48:05,045 --> 00:48:08,765
Speaker 2: you know. So, I mean she's if it wasn't for her,

1024
00:48:09,165 --> 00:48:10,365
Speaker 2: I'd be dead to in prison for.

1025
00:48:10,365 --> 00:48:12,844
Speaker 1: The rest of my life. Wow, that's a statement right there.

1026
00:48:13,325 --> 00:48:16,245
Speaker 1: So you travel around the world telling your story and

1027
00:48:16,325 --> 00:48:18,765
Speaker 1: there's young men today that you already alluded to that

1028
00:48:18,885 --> 00:48:20,765
Speaker 1: are drawn to a life of crime. It's kind of

1029
00:48:20,805 --> 00:48:24,445
Speaker 1: glamorized and certainly these mob films, you know, can have

1030
00:48:24,525 --> 00:48:27,325
Speaker 1: a certain appeal, but those are movies that's not real

1031
00:48:27,605 --> 00:48:30,765
Speaker 1: the real life you've lived it. What would you say

1032
00:48:30,885 --> 00:48:34,165
Speaker 1: to a young man who's drawn to a criminal lifestyle

1033
00:48:34,245 --> 00:48:37,445
Speaker 1: it might be a gang or some other way they

1034
00:48:37,485 --> 00:48:40,805
Speaker 1: would express that, Like, what would your word be to them?

1035
00:48:40,925 --> 00:48:42,845
Speaker 1: Because you've literally been there and done that.

1036
00:48:43,405 --> 00:48:47,125
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I drive two major points home to

1037
00:48:47,245 --> 00:48:49,245
Speaker 2: a lot of the young people out with all the time,

1038
00:48:49,245 --> 00:48:51,925
Speaker 2: and it's two things I show them. Remember this in

1039
00:48:52,045 --> 00:48:54,805
Speaker 2: this world you are, in this life, who you hang

1040
00:48:54,885 --> 00:48:57,445
Speaker 2: out with. If you hang with the wrong crowd, you're

1041
00:48:57,485 --> 00:48:59,205
Speaker 2: going to be known to be the wrong type of person,

1042
00:48:59,325 --> 00:49:01,285
Speaker 2: even if you think you're a good person, and they

1043
00:49:01,325 --> 00:49:03,045
Speaker 2: are going to influence you, and they've got to bring

1044
00:49:03,085 --> 00:49:05,205
Speaker 2: you in the wrong direction. Who you hang out, who

1045
00:49:05,245 --> 00:49:08,885
Speaker 2: you around yourself very important. Secondly, I tell them, who

1046
00:49:08,965 --> 00:49:11,205
Speaker 2: you are accountable to in life is going to direct

1047
00:49:11,245 --> 00:49:13,645
Speaker 2: the path that your life goes down. I said, when

1048
00:49:13,645 --> 00:49:16,364
Speaker 2: I was on the street, I was accountable to my boss,

1049
00:49:16,565 --> 00:49:19,485
Speaker 2: to my oath. I was a criminal. Now I'm accountable

1050
00:49:19,485 --> 00:49:22,245
Speaker 2: to my God first, to my wife, my children. People

1051
00:49:22,285 --> 00:49:24,965
Speaker 2: that rely on me don't want me to know disappoint them.

1052
00:49:25,085 --> 00:49:27,685
Speaker 2: So my pats are a lot straighter. I said, So

1053
00:49:28,045 --> 00:49:30,845
Speaker 2: the criminal life is the wrong people to be around.

1054
00:49:30,885 --> 00:49:32,605
Speaker 2: You're going to go to jail, You're going to get hurt,

1055
00:49:32,645 --> 00:49:34,685
Speaker 2: you're going to get something's going to go down, and

1056
00:49:34,805 --> 00:49:37,565
Speaker 2: who you were accountable to? And I told them accountability

1057
00:49:37,645 --> 00:49:39,725
Speaker 2: is very important. Even if you're a boss, you have

1058
00:49:39,805 --> 00:49:43,205
Speaker 2: to be accountable to somebody or something. And the message

1059
00:49:43,245 --> 00:49:46,925
Speaker 2: really resonates And I told them, listen, I was part

1060
00:49:46,965 --> 00:49:50,125
Speaker 2: of the biggest gang in the world, and I walked

1061
00:49:50,125 --> 00:49:53,125
Speaker 2: away for a reason. And I've been successful in doing that,

1062
00:49:53,325 --> 00:49:56,445
Speaker 2: and that's when I give them the faith message. Yes,

1063
00:49:56,805 --> 00:50:00,005
Speaker 2: and it really resonates Greg. You know when you God

1064
00:50:00,045 --> 00:50:02,725
Speaker 2: has blessed me because I've been there and done that,

1065
00:50:03,165 --> 00:50:05,884
Speaker 2: and you have credibility, and credibility is everything. You talk

1066
00:50:05,965 --> 00:50:08,485
Speaker 2: to the shoon. In other words, I'll turn you right off.

1067
00:50:08,765 --> 00:50:11,525
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's like the old adage show me your friends,

1068
00:50:11,565 --> 00:50:14,925
Speaker 1: I'll show you your future. And someone you know, blessed

1069
00:50:15,125 --> 00:50:17,285
Speaker 1: is the man that walks none on the council of

1070
00:50:17,445 --> 00:50:20,005
Speaker 1: being godly, or stands in the way of sinners, or

1071
00:50:20,085 --> 00:50:22,725
Speaker 1: sits in the seat of the scornful. Word blessed can

1072
00:50:22,765 --> 00:50:25,085
Speaker 1: be translated happy. Hey, you want to be a happy person,

1073
00:50:25,565 --> 00:50:29,285
Speaker 1: don't hang around ungodly people, people who mock God. But

1074
00:50:29,445 --> 00:50:32,205
Speaker 1: then it says, in contest, but his delight is in

1075
00:50:32,325 --> 00:50:34,285
Speaker 1: the word of the Lord, and in it does he

1076
00:50:34,405 --> 00:50:37,844
Speaker 1: meditate day and night. And then it says, and he'll

1077
00:50:37,845 --> 00:50:39,884
Speaker 1: be like a tree planted by the rivers of water

1078
00:50:40,285 --> 00:50:42,725
Speaker 1: that will bring forth fruit in his season. His leaves

1079
00:50:42,765 --> 00:50:45,725
Speaker 1: shall not whether whatever he does shall prosper. You know,

1080
00:50:45,845 --> 00:50:48,685
Speaker 1: so God will bless you like you're talking about proverbs.

1081
00:50:49,605 --> 00:50:51,565
Speaker 1: Trust in the Lord with all of your heart, don't

1082
00:50:51,645 --> 00:50:54,245
Speaker 1: lean to your own understanding and all your ways. Acknowledge him.

1083
00:50:54,285 --> 00:50:58,565
Speaker 1: He'll direct your pats. God's plan is better than our

1084
00:50:58,725 --> 00:51:02,885
Speaker 1: plan for ourself, so you know. And I'll say something

1085
00:51:02,885 --> 00:51:06,605
Speaker 1: about your dad too, even though you would rough relationship

1086
00:51:06,685 --> 00:51:08,845
Speaker 1: and your father, well, I'll just say it wasn't the

1087
00:51:08,965 --> 00:51:11,845
Speaker 1: perfect role model. He was a very flawed man, but

1088
00:51:12,925 --> 00:51:16,565
Speaker 1: you you loved him, and he lived a very long life.

1089
00:51:16,645 --> 00:51:19,845
Speaker 1: In fact, at one point, wasn't he the longest serving

1090
00:51:20,085 --> 00:51:21,565
Speaker 1: prisoner in the system.

1091
00:51:22,085 --> 00:51:24,805
Speaker 2: He was released in twenty seventeen at the age one

1092
00:51:24,925 --> 00:51:27,605
Speaker 2: hundred one hundred. He was the oldest inmate in the

1093
00:51:27,685 --> 00:51:28,365
Speaker 2: federal system.

1094
00:51:28,445 --> 00:51:30,445
Speaker 1: And I know, I mean because you tell me about

1095
00:51:30,525 --> 00:51:33,085
Speaker 1: him often and you would go and visit him in prison.

1096
00:51:34,005 --> 00:51:38,725
Speaker 1: What was Sonny's reaction to you being not only a

1097
00:51:38,885 --> 00:51:43,125
Speaker 1: Christian but in fact a guy who's taking your story

1098
00:51:43,445 --> 00:51:46,245
Speaker 1: and using it to bring others to faith. Did he

1099
00:51:46,565 --> 00:51:47,845
Speaker 1: like that? Did he not like that?

1100
00:51:48,285 --> 00:51:50,245
Speaker 2: I'm going to sum it up quick. You know, one

1101
00:51:50,285 --> 00:51:52,405
Speaker 2: of the guilts that I carry with me, and it

1102
00:51:53,205 --> 00:51:55,725
Speaker 2: bothers me, is I don't think I ministered enough to

1103
00:51:55,845 --> 00:51:56,325
Speaker 2: my diet.

1104
00:51:56,765 --> 00:51:59,405
Speaker 1: It was very hard, you know, It's always hard though

1105
00:51:59,445 --> 00:52:01,925
Speaker 1: with your parents. But hard. You had a very unusual

1106
00:52:02,005 --> 00:52:04,165
Speaker 1: situation too, that's it was hard. Yeah.

1107
00:52:04,405 --> 00:52:06,445
Speaker 2: But I had once open at a place I think

1108
00:52:06,565 --> 00:52:09,725
Speaker 2: was in Pennsylvania and it was a big, big gathering

1109
00:52:10,685 --> 00:52:13,485
Speaker 2: and the chaplain was a woman there and she said,

1110
00:52:13,485 --> 00:52:15,605
Speaker 2: I'm so moved by the story of you and your father.

1111
00:52:15,685 --> 00:52:18,805
Speaker 2: I want to go visit your dad. And I said, great,

1112
00:52:18,805 --> 00:52:20,965
Speaker 2: if you can get in, do it. So she was

1113
00:52:21,165 --> 00:52:24,085
Speaker 2: very aggressive. She gets in, she spends three hours with

1114
00:52:24,245 --> 00:52:27,085
Speaker 2: my dad. She told me two things. She said, you know,

1115
00:52:27,725 --> 00:52:30,005
Speaker 2: when I walked in, because my father wasn't expecting her.

1116
00:52:30,405 --> 00:52:35,365
Speaker 2: When I walked in, she said, I'm the chaplain and

1117
00:52:35,485 --> 00:52:38,365
Speaker 2: he goes, oh, really, my son is a pastor and

1118
00:52:38,405 --> 00:52:40,725
Speaker 2: now I'm not a pastor. But and I said, well,

1119
00:52:40,725 --> 00:52:42,525
Speaker 2: how did he say that? He said he was very

1120
00:52:42,605 --> 00:52:45,925
Speaker 2: proud of that, so that like, wow, I never realized

1121
00:52:45,965 --> 00:52:48,245
Speaker 2: that because he didn't really indicate that to me. And

1122
00:52:48,325 --> 00:52:50,405
Speaker 2: then she told me, she said, your dad and I

1123
00:52:50,525 --> 00:52:53,365
Speaker 2: read the Bible for three hours and he accepted Christ.

1124
00:52:54,405 --> 00:52:56,525
Speaker 2: Now I didn't see much evidence of that afterwards, but

1125
00:52:57,805 --> 00:53:01,245
Speaker 2: whom I to doubt that, you know? So I felt

1126
00:53:01,285 --> 00:53:03,245
Speaker 2: really good about that, and I had so many people

1127
00:53:03,325 --> 00:53:05,205
Speaker 2: praying for him, and I believe in the power prayer.

1128
00:53:05,485 --> 00:53:07,445
Speaker 1: I would disagree with you. I think you were an

1129
00:53:07,445 --> 00:53:10,445
Speaker 1: excellent son, and I know how many times you want

1130
00:53:10,485 --> 00:53:12,805
Speaker 1: to visit him, and I know it was hard for you,

1131
00:53:13,485 --> 00:53:16,525
Speaker 1: but yet you sowed that seed and prepared the ground,

1132
00:53:17,125 --> 00:53:20,485
Speaker 1: and that lady, you know, shared the gospel. And if

1133
00:53:20,565 --> 00:53:24,165
Speaker 1: Sunny Frenzies died believing in Jesus Christ Is as Savior

1134
00:53:24,245 --> 00:53:27,205
Speaker 1: and Lord, regardless of the sin that he committed, he

1135
00:53:27,405 --> 00:53:30,205
Speaker 1: was forgiven, just like the thief on the cross who

1136
00:53:30,765 --> 00:53:33,205
Speaker 1: and you know the thief was probably was a murderer

1137
00:53:33,405 --> 00:53:37,045
Speaker 1: because they didn't crucify thieves, so he probably was an

1138
00:53:37,085 --> 00:53:41,005
Speaker 1: insurrection there's guilty of serious crimes for sure. And Jesus

1139
00:53:41,045 --> 00:53:43,165
Speaker 1: said today you'll be with me in Paradise. I think

1140
00:53:43,205 --> 00:53:46,285
Speaker 1: you're a great son to your father, and you know

1141
00:53:46,365 --> 00:53:49,045
Speaker 1: you had a very rough life, but I love the

1142
00:53:49,125 --> 00:53:51,925
Speaker 1: way that you were able to go back and you know,

1143
00:53:52,085 --> 00:53:56,765
Speaker 1: bring grace and forgiveness to your dad. And I know

1144
00:53:57,085 --> 00:53:59,205
Speaker 1: you know with your family as well, you care about

1145
00:53:59,205 --> 00:54:01,205
Speaker 1: them a great deal. I'm talking about your siblings and

1146
00:54:01,325 --> 00:54:04,725
Speaker 1: such and the challenges you've had there. So you know,

1147
00:54:05,085 --> 00:54:07,605
Speaker 1: I think of one of the most remarkable stories I've

1148
00:54:07,685 --> 00:54:11,245
Speaker 1: ever heard. And to me, it's almost like the story

1149
00:54:11,325 --> 00:54:15,765
Speaker 1: of the apostle Paul. I mean, Paul was a murderer. Paul.

1150
00:54:16,005 --> 00:54:19,445
Speaker 1: You weren't a murderer, but Paul was. And Paul was

1151
00:54:20,045 --> 00:54:22,805
Speaker 1: living a godless life, thinking he was living a godly

1152
00:54:22,925 --> 00:54:25,765
Speaker 1: life and the last thing he planned undoing was becoming

1153
00:54:25,805 --> 00:54:30,005
Speaker 1: a believer. But God reached out and touched him. And

1154
00:54:30,325 --> 00:54:32,565
Speaker 1: it's interesting he didn't do it through a person. He

1155
00:54:32,645 --> 00:54:35,565
Speaker 1: did it supernaturally. Most of us come to faith when

1156
00:54:35,605 --> 00:54:37,884
Speaker 1: someone shares the gospel with us. And in a way,

1157
00:54:37,925 --> 00:54:42,005
Speaker 1: a prison guard opened the door for you, but ultimately

1158
00:54:42,165 --> 00:54:45,205
Speaker 1: you got a personal encounter with Christ and a prison cell.

1159
00:54:45,605 --> 00:54:48,325
Speaker 1: The Lord just said you're going to be my son now.

1160
00:54:48,965 --> 00:54:51,565
Speaker 1: And you could have said no, but of course you

1161
00:54:51,685 --> 00:54:55,045
Speaker 1: said yes. And it's just an amazing story. And I

1162
00:54:55,165 --> 00:54:59,165
Speaker 1: think your story says to anybody listening to us right now,

1163
00:54:59,565 --> 00:55:01,844
Speaker 1: no one is beyond the reach of God. I mean,

1164
00:55:01,845 --> 00:55:05,364
Speaker 1: if God can reach Michael Frenzies, if God can reach

1165
00:55:05,845 --> 00:55:10,965
Speaker 1: Sunny Frenzies, who can God nutreach? And so maybe what

1166
00:55:11,085 --> 00:55:15,805
Speaker 1: would you say to someone who has a son or

1167
00:55:15,885 --> 00:55:19,725
Speaker 1: a dad or someone they know that is turned their

1168
00:55:19,805 --> 00:55:23,205
Speaker 1: back and God has no interest in the spiritual things.

1169
00:55:23,845 --> 00:55:26,365
Speaker 1: What would you say to encourage them to not give up?

1170
00:55:27,565 --> 00:55:31,005
Speaker 2: Well, you know, just two recent encounters I had. I've

1171
00:55:31,045 --> 00:55:34,845
Speaker 2: spoken a men's group Friday night, and a fella that

1172
00:55:34,925 --> 00:55:38,525
Speaker 2: I was in prison with who Yeah, who was a

1173
00:55:38,645 --> 00:55:42,364
Speaker 2: wild guy in prison to say the least. He heard

1174
00:55:42,445 --> 00:55:44,845
Speaker 2: He lives in the same area with the church that

1175
00:55:44,885 --> 00:55:46,525
Speaker 2: I was going to when he heard about and he said,

1176
00:55:46,525 --> 00:55:48,844
Speaker 2: could I come and see you? I said sure, He said,

1177
00:55:48,885 --> 00:55:51,405
Speaker 2: can I bring my wife? He said, because we realized,

1178
00:55:51,445 --> 00:55:54,525
Speaker 2: said well, it's a men's event, but if you're not uncomfortable, yeah,

1179
00:55:54,645 --> 00:55:57,165
Speaker 2: I'll work it out. So he came with two of

1180
00:55:57,245 --> 00:56:02,045
Speaker 2: his friends and their wives also, and that night they

1181
00:56:02,085 --> 00:56:04,765
Speaker 2: all accept the christ Man. Yeah. And this was I

1182
00:56:04,845 --> 00:56:07,845
Speaker 2: hadn't seen him in years because we were in prison together,

1183
00:56:08,725 --> 00:56:10,085
Speaker 2: and so why.

1184
00:56:10,005 --> 00:56:10,565
Speaker 1: Ever give up?

1185
00:56:10,725 --> 00:56:13,325
Speaker 2: And he was a wild guy. And then this is

1186
00:56:13,405 --> 00:56:16,165
Speaker 2: even more fascinating to me, my younger brother who had

1187
00:56:16,205 --> 00:56:20,685
Speaker 2: that drug problem. He ended up cooperating with law enforcement.

1188
00:56:21,125 --> 00:56:25,285
Speaker 2: He became an informant and he actually testified against my

1189
00:56:25,405 --> 00:56:28,405
Speaker 2: dad in a case that sent my dad back to prison.

1190
00:56:29,645 --> 00:56:31,245
Speaker 2: I hadn't spoken to him for ten years. I was

1191
00:56:31,285 --> 00:56:35,765
Speaker 2: angry with him. And then my seventieth birthday was a

1192
00:56:35,845 --> 00:56:39,445
Speaker 2: surprise party and Cammi invited him, And that was three

1193
00:56:39,525 --> 00:56:44,365
Speaker 2: years ago, and now we've been very close. He explains.

1194
00:56:44,885 --> 00:56:49,765
Speaker 2: You know, Greg, my three brothers and sisters, you all

1195
00:56:49,845 --> 00:56:53,005
Speaker 2: handle things in life differently. They weren't able to handle

1196
00:56:53,085 --> 00:56:56,525
Speaker 2: the turbulence through our childhood for some reason. You know,

1197
00:56:56,605 --> 00:56:59,445
Speaker 2: I was able to. But when he explained to me

1198
00:57:00,085 --> 00:57:02,005
Speaker 2: some of the reasons why he did what he did,

1199
00:57:02,085 --> 00:57:04,645
Speaker 2: it started making sense to me. You know, I said,

1200
00:57:04,805 --> 00:57:07,165
Speaker 2: you know, who am I to be inside his head

1201
00:57:07,205 --> 00:57:10,805
Speaker 2: and understand what he can handle. He couldn't handle certain things,

1202
00:57:11,525 --> 00:57:14,005
Speaker 2: and now he's come to the Lord, you know, as

1203
00:57:14,045 --> 00:57:15,485
Speaker 2: a result in the past three years.

1204
00:57:15,645 --> 00:57:15,844
Speaker 1: Wow.

1205
00:57:16,645 --> 00:57:19,365
Speaker 2: Another guy. Some people that listened to you may know

1206
00:57:19,405 --> 00:57:21,845
Speaker 2: who he is. Sammy de bou Gravano. Oh yeah, yeah,

1207
00:57:23,325 --> 00:57:25,925
Speaker 2: I was in church with Gotti, right, yeah. He was

1208
00:57:25,925 --> 00:57:30,405
Speaker 2: the one that testified against God. He admitted to nineteen murders.

1209
00:57:31,365 --> 00:57:33,685
Speaker 2: This you have a partner, this too. We were in church,

1210
00:57:33,765 --> 00:57:35,725
Speaker 2: Camy and I one day, and you said, is there

1211
00:57:35,765 --> 00:57:37,565
Speaker 2: anybody out there that you should be praying for?

1212
00:57:37,925 --> 00:57:38,605
Speaker 1: Just pray for him?

1213
00:57:38,645 --> 00:57:40,845
Speaker 2: So Cammy turned to me and said, let's pray for Sammy.

1214
00:57:41,485 --> 00:57:43,645
Speaker 2: So I prayed for Sammy and I mentioned that to him.

1215
00:57:44,365 --> 00:57:46,765
Speaker 2: He got upset with me. Yeah, what are you praying

1216
00:57:46,805 --> 00:57:49,405
Speaker 2: for me for? What are you right? Okay, I said, Sammy,

1217
00:57:49,405 --> 00:57:52,205
Speaker 2: calm down, it's a good thing. Right. Well, six months

1218
00:57:52,205 --> 00:57:54,405
Speaker 2: ago he got baptized and accepted the Lord.

1219
00:57:54,485 --> 00:57:55,165
Speaker 1: I did not know that.

1220
00:57:55,405 --> 00:57:57,245
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, right out here he did.

1221
00:57:57,685 --> 00:58:00,565
Speaker 1: Now he's walking with That is amazing because I know

1222
00:58:00,725 --> 00:58:03,445
Speaker 1: you guys have done interviews before and kind of had

1223
00:58:03,685 --> 00:58:06,325
Speaker 1: a little bitboarded heads. Yeah. Yeah, because you're two of

1224
00:58:06,405 --> 00:58:11,645
Speaker 1: the very few living, surviving guys from that life that

1225
00:58:11,765 --> 00:58:15,605
Speaker 1: are out there talking about it. Yes, wow, that's great news.

1226
00:58:15,685 --> 00:58:18,725
Speaker 1: And Sammy, Yeah, he accepted a law and he was

1227
00:58:18,845 --> 00:58:21,565
Speaker 1: he not an enforcer what we might call it yet. Man.

1228
00:58:21,845 --> 00:58:25,605
Speaker 2: Yes, he admitted to nineteen murders, Oh my goodness, nineteen

1229
00:58:26,365 --> 00:58:28,645
Speaker 2: and you know he cooperated, he went into the program

1230
00:58:28,765 --> 00:58:31,725
Speaker 2: and all of that. But you know, when people I

1231
00:58:31,845 --> 00:58:35,765
Speaker 2: have to say this too, Regan, maybe you'll understand. People

1232
00:58:35,845 --> 00:58:39,605
Speaker 2: have knocked me for being friendly with him now because

1233
00:58:39,645 --> 00:58:42,805
Speaker 2: he gets a lot of bad stuff set about him

1234
00:58:42,965 --> 00:58:46,685
Speaker 2: on social media. And I tell people, listen, I was

1235
00:58:46,725 --> 00:58:49,685
Speaker 2: one of those guys. I don't judge a person's heart. Yeah,

1236
00:58:49,965 --> 00:58:53,045
Speaker 2: I have tried my best to lead him to the Lord.

1237
00:58:53,125 --> 00:58:55,205
Speaker 2: I'm not saying I'm the sole person that had done that,

1238
00:58:55,365 --> 00:58:58,725
Speaker 2: but he saw by example who I am. But I

1239
00:58:58,805 --> 00:59:01,285
Speaker 2: don't back off of people because of what other people say,

1240
00:59:01,365 --> 00:59:04,045
Speaker 2: because with God, anything is possible. Anything.

1241
00:59:04,805 --> 00:59:07,605
Speaker 1: How can we person if we don't have dialogue with them.

1242
00:59:07,685 --> 00:59:11,045
Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus sat down with the woman at the well,

1243
00:59:11,125 --> 00:59:12,965
Speaker 1: with the woman caught in the act of adultery. He

1244
00:59:13,085 --> 00:59:17,405
Speaker 1: engaged with Pontus Pilot, the Roman governor. You know, we

1245
00:59:17,565 --> 00:59:20,325
Speaker 1: want to reach them and we have to have communication

1246
00:59:20,565 --> 00:59:22,685
Speaker 1: with them. As Paul said, I become all things to

1247
00:59:22,765 --> 00:59:25,805
Speaker 1: all men. That doesn't mean you compromise your beliefs, but

1248
00:59:25,925 --> 00:59:29,285
Speaker 1: it means you have to talk with them and you know,

1249
00:59:29,445 --> 00:59:32,485
Speaker 1: try to reach them. And I think you do that

1250
00:59:32,645 --> 00:59:36,325
Speaker 1: well wherever you go. Well, Michael, thank you for all

1251
00:59:36,405 --> 00:59:38,765
Speaker 1: that you do. God bless you and your family, your

1252
00:59:38,805 --> 00:59:42,845
Speaker 1: wonderful family, and the way you travel around as a

1253
00:59:43,085 --> 00:59:47,365
Speaker 1: representative of Christ and reach people that I could never reach,

1254
00:59:47,485 --> 00:59:50,645
Speaker 1: that many of us wouldn't reach. But you've taken your mess,

1255
00:59:50,885 --> 00:59:54,165
Speaker 1: You've turned it into a message. Your test has become

1256
00:59:54,245 --> 00:59:58,645
Speaker 1: a testimony and God is using you, and I know

1257
00:59:58,805 --> 01:00:01,965
Speaker 1: he will continue to do some Thanks are taking some time,

1258
01:00:02,045 --> 01:00:05,805
Speaker 1: and so we could have a sit down together. Yes,

1259
01:00:06,245 --> 01:00:09,365
Speaker 1: sit down, but that's kind of a phrase in the mob.

1260
01:00:09,405 --> 01:00:11,445
Speaker 1: What would that mean. We're gonna have a sit down.

1261
01:00:11,525 --> 01:00:13,165
Speaker 1: That's not a good thing generally.

1262
01:00:12,925 --> 01:00:17,005
Speaker 2: Is No, we're deciding something. It could be very important,

1263
01:00:17,285 --> 01:00:18,885
Speaker 2: you know. But I do want to say this, you know,

1264
01:00:19,005 --> 01:00:22,325
Speaker 2: I appreciate so much, you know, what Harvest has done

1265
01:00:22,365 --> 01:00:24,965
Speaker 2: for me and my family. Now obviously we go back,

1266
01:00:25,605 --> 01:00:27,805
Speaker 2: we go back a long time from a prison cell

1267
01:00:28,565 --> 01:00:31,085
Speaker 2: and just to support my whole family has gotten through

1268
01:00:31,165 --> 01:00:34,685
Speaker 2: some you know, turbulent times that we've had, and I

1269
01:00:34,725 --> 01:00:37,365
Speaker 2: always hold Harvest up as an example of what a

1270
01:00:37,485 --> 01:00:39,125
Speaker 2: church should be. Oh, thank you for that.

1271
01:00:39,285 --> 01:00:43,885
Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on, Thank you, thank you. Hey,

1272
01:00:43,965 --> 01:00:47,045
Speaker 1: Thanks for watching. Subscribe to my YouTube channel, follow me

1273
01:00:47,125 --> 01:00:51,165
Speaker 1: on social media. Make sure you download the Harvest Plus

1274
01:00:51,365 --> 01:00:55,165
Speaker 1: app because there you will find so much information that

1275
01:00:55,285 --> 01:00:58,045
Speaker 1: we have for you that you'll love. So thanks for watching.