1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: There are seasons in life when God no longer feels 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: as near as he once did. You know, prayer can 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 2: feel thin, scripture can feel strangely quiet. The nearness we 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 2: once depended on can seem difficult to find, and for 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: many of us, that experience quickly becomes unsettling. We wonder 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: whether we've failed somehow, maybe we've drifted, or has God 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: perhaps somehow stepped away. But what if seasons of dryness 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: are not always signs of God's disfavor or even his absence. 10 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 2: What if at times they become places where God is 11 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 2: doing some of his deepest work, yet when He just 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: might be closer to us than ever before. What if 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: the loss of spiritual certainty or emotional reassurance is not 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 2: the end of faith, but an invitation into a deeper 15 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,959 Speaker 2: kind of trust. Hello friends, I'm Alan Faddling, and you're 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 2: listening to the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire you 17 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 2: to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. In today's episode, 18 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 2: I'm joined by Kyle Strobel, co author with John Coe 19 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 2: of the book When God Seems Distant. Together, we explore 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 2: the mystery of spiritual dryness, the hidden work of God. 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: In suffering and surrender, and the surprising ways we sometimes 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 2: avoid the very presence we long for. After a word 23 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 2: from our sponsor, I'll share my conversation with Kyle Strobel. 24 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 2: If you're listening to this podcast, I'd love for you 25 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: to follow or subscribe, and if you're watching it on YouTube, 26 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: please consider subscribing there as well. It's free and it 27 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 2: helps you stay connected with us, and it also helps 28 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: more people discover the Unhurry Living podcast. My guest today 29 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: is kyle's Strobel. Kyle is a theologian, professor and spiritual 30 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: formation writer whose work has helped many people think more 31 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: deeply about intimacy with God, prayer, suffering, and spiritual transformation. 32 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 2: He serves as Professor of Spiritual Theology at Talbot's School 33 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: of Theology and has written extensively on the deeper life 34 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: with God. Today, we're talking about the recent book he 35 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 2: co authored with John Coe, titled When God Seems Distant. 36 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 2: In it, Kyle and John explore the difficult but deeply 37 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: human experience of spiritual dryness, those seasons when God can 38 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 2: feel absent, prayer can feel empty, and faith can feel 39 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: more difficult than before. Rather than offering quick fixes, or 40 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: shallow reassurance. They invite us into a more honest and 41 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 2: mature understanding of spiritual formation, one that makes room for suffering, surrender, confusion, 42 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 2: and the hidden work of God beneath the surface of 43 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: our experience. In our conversation today, we explore why God 44 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: can sometimes seem distant, how we often mistake spiritual feelings 45 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: for God's presence, and why love, not striving is ultimately 46 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: what transforms us. So let's now jump into that conversation. So, Kyle, 47 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: is so good to be able to have this conversation 48 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: about this book you've written, When God Seems Distant. You 49 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 2: and John, thanks for joining me. 50 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: Oh, thanks so much. Alan, It's always good to be 51 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: with you. Good to see you, and I'm looking forward 52 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: to chatting me too. 53 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 2: So I love your title, When God Seems Distant. I 54 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: think it's a very familiar experience for anyone who's been 55 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: walking with God for any length of time. So I 56 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: think it names an experience that a lot lot of 57 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: sincere Christians have but often don't talk about openly. So 58 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 2: what do you think some of the reasons are for 59 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: people's either reticence to talk about these experiences or struggle 60 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: to understand how they could be part of their life 61 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: of faith. 62 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think so often for folks. You know, 63 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: one of the things we talk about in this book 64 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: is what we would call kind of a developmental spirituality. 65 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: And so as God is maturing us, we go through seasons. 66 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: I think in First Corinthians three, what Paul talks about 67 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: infants in Christ being on milk rather than solid food. 68 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: And you know, the part of what happens, I think 69 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: the Lord in our infancy, the Lord is such a 70 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: kind father. He dotes on us, and he just fills 71 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: us with joy and passion and excitement, all these things 72 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: in our infancy, and in many ways biblically, I think 73 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: of the Exodus in this regard, like God has shown 74 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: them like you are my people. I am going to 75 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: literally kind of birth you out of israe Egypt, and 76 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: I'm going to show you that you're my children and 77 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: my beloved. And so those early years for a lot 78 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: of us, most of us go through these seasons of 79 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: consolation with the Lord just so visibly and spectacularly just 80 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: kind of dotes upon us in this way. And then 81 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: as with Israel, he leads us in the desert and 82 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: he shows us what is in our hearts, and that 83 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: is such a confusing space that I think what tends 84 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: to happen is we assume I must have done something wrong. 85 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: And so for some folks they just try harder, they 86 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: worship more exuberantly, like embody. They're trying to generate something, 87 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,159 Speaker 1: you know. And I think in this time, a lot 88 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: of us kind of look around a little bit and 89 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: it's like, well, Alan seems to get it, like that 90 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: guy up there seems to get it, or she sees it. 91 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: And the assumption is I'm just alone in this. And 92 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: you know, it's amazing because you can have whole congregations 93 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: of people that feel that way, and everyone's looking at 94 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: each other thinking, well, they get it. And and if 95 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: someone would just pause and just kind of name you know, ah, 96 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: this feels like death to me right now, or it 97 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: feels like God's abandoned me here. Like what they would 98 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: discover is people that go you two, and those people 99 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: would discover the gift of having someone name their experience 100 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: back to them. And so it is it almost is 101 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: that kind of puberty season of the Christian faith where 102 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: everyone's kind of experiencing stuff, but no one's willing to 103 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: talk about it, because the experience is tied to shame, 104 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: and it's said to some guilt and fear and anxiety 105 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: and all these things that that tend to turn us 106 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 1: inward rather than outward. And so one of the profound 107 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: gifts that John and I have been given is obviously 108 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: other Christians, but even just the tradition that has talked 109 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: about these things. And I have found in so many 110 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: occasions of someone two hundred, three hundred, five hundred years 111 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: ago who said, oh, yeah, none of these seasons and 112 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, you knew this, Why didn't we? Why have 113 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: I never heard this before? So that that is a 114 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: real gift. 115 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 2: I love that. Well, as I'm hearing you, it seems 116 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: to me that at least for some of us, and 117 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 2: maybe early on, there's this portrayal of what the normal 118 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: Christian life is and it doesn't seem to include any 119 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 2: of these experiences that you've just been describing. And so 120 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: obviously my experience is abnormal, and why in the world 121 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: would I want to talk about that? 122 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: M That's exactly right, Yeah, yeah, And you know, it's 123 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: it's one of the weird things I've come to kind 124 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: of wrestle with over the years of following Jesus that 125 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: you just see this all throughout scripture. I think the 126 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: Disciples are a very obvious example where following Jesus. I mean, 127 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: I think in Mark Eate, for instance, you know, Jesus 128 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: is like, well, what are people saying about me? Like 129 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: what's the gossip about me on the street? And they say, oh, 130 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: something you are lies? Some say you know, And then 131 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: the question of Mark is who do you say that 132 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: I am? And Peter responds and it's wonderful. It's like, yes, 133 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: we're here, We've done it. And then from that point 134 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: on in Mark, Jesus like just pulls the carpet out 135 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,119 Speaker 1: from underneath them and for the first time he starts 136 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: talking about I came to die, and it's so profoundly disorienting. 137 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: Peter rebukes Jesus for even saying these things, and Jesus 138 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: calls him Satan, and it's like wow, like wow, what 139 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: has happened? I mean, I even think about you know, 140 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 1: growing up in ancient Israel as a as a young boy, 141 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: you would have been taught the proverbs, and you could 142 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: read the proverbs and you through them superficially. But a 143 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 1: child would right so things are very black and white, 144 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: things are very simple. Things are and then you read 145 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: the Book of Job and all the bad guys speak 146 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: in proverbs, and it's like, that's a pretty disorienting kind 147 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: of formation. And yeah, that's kind of what we see 148 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: in script sure that that God has called us to himself. 149 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: But as we draw near to God, as Deuteronomy, it 150 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: too tells us He leads us in the desert to 151 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: show us what is in our hearts. And unfortunately, in 152 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: those early years of the faith, to your to use 153 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: your language, like when we come to realize like what 154 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: a normal Christian existence is like, it actually isn't paying 155 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: attention to the deep movements of my heart. It's just 156 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: looking kind of outward, and it very quickly becomes a 157 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: kind of get it done, very very simple, very kind 158 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: of victory oriented kind of spirituality. And then the Lord 159 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: shows us what is in our hearts, and that feels 160 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: like going backwards. It feels like things no, no, no, no, no, 161 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: this this isn't this isn't right. And you know, I 162 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: when I mentioned the traditional tell us things that encourage us, 163 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that I can't even 164 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: remember how many people I've read have said this, but 165 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: I'm a My PhD work was in Jonathan Edwards, and 166 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: so he always comes to mind. And Edward says at 167 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: the end of his life, as he's looking back on 168 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: his life, it's like, I think I was a better 169 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: Christian for like the first two or three years I 170 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: committed my life to Jesus that I am now And 171 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: I remember reading that thinking like, yes, like that feels 172 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: that that just I feel that, And and it was 173 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: in actually it was in preaching a passage at my church. 174 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: I remember I remember being given the text in Luke 175 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: seven forty seven where Jesus says, the one who is 176 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 1: forgiven little will love little, and just realizing, oh, so 177 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: the path I'm on is a path to see ever 178 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 1: more increasingly how desperately I need Jesus, which which requires 179 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: me to see, oh wow, that that greed is deeper 180 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: than I thought it was, that lust is more profound 181 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: than I realized that, and and that I don't have 182 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: to be afraid of these things because Christ is my righteousness, 183 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: because because Christ is my sanctification. And so it actually 184 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: took hearing from some Christians like that that this is 185 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: actually what the path is in order to kind of 186 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: interpret this as good news, because I think that's what 187 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: a lot a lot of Christians at first blush. It 188 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: just doesn't sound like good news any longer. And I 189 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: think once we can see that this is not only 190 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: good news, this is the best possible news. Jesus, you 191 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: mean that in my weakness I can know your power. 192 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: That's great. I got a lot of wow if I 193 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: heard the message that it was in my strength that 194 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: I can know power. Wooh, that's some bad news. And 195 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: yet so many of us can interpret it that way. 196 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: I think that that there's a real tragedy there. So 197 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: that was the real gift in this kind of wrestling 198 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: over the decades with the Lord and these things, that 199 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: the Lord really does invite us to something deeper, but 200 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,680 Speaker 1: it'll cause us to kind of call into question the 201 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: metrics we've been using to judge the Christian life. 202 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 2: After the break, I'll continue my conversation with Kyle Strobel. Yeah, 203 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: so what feels like a spiritual failure somehow or another? 204 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 2: You know, the wrestling, of course, is either I've done 205 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: something wrong, or God's change his mind about me, or 206 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: something something needs to be repaired. Whereas you're saying, actually, 207 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 2: maybe these experiences of dryness, of darkness, of kind of fogginess, 208 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 2: there's different metaphors that get used along the way. These 209 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 2: might be the opportunities to seek more deeply God himself 210 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 2: than not my experiences of God or my ideas about 211 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 2: God or my activities for God, which can often be 212 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: the focus instead totally. 213 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is where so the way we set up 214 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: the book as we try to set up a kind 215 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: of here's the developmental spirituality, as the tradition has given 216 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: it to us, and as we've seen it in our 217 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: own lives and the lives of you know, in scripture. 218 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: But then here's all the places we turn instead of 219 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: turning to God. And this is where you know it's humbling. 220 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: It's humbling to write a book, like as you know, 221 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: al like you know you're writ a book and you're 222 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: like you're like, okay, yeah, I see this, you know, 223 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: and you know, the temptation to just pump passion into 224 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: your will's I just need to get passionate again. If 225 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: I got passionate again, then things will start making sense, 226 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: like God will be back, God'll be happy with me, 227 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: things will be back in my side, and life will 228 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: work again, or maybe I just need to be better. 229 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: You know, I haven't really dealt with my sin as 230 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: deeply as I should have. I haven't loved my neighbor 231 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: as well as I And so suddenly we become very 232 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: moralistic and we begin we begin thinking that if that 233 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: this is what God will, if I could do that, 234 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: then God will finally give me back the joy of 235 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: the Christian life, the excitement of the Christian life. And 236 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: you know, what I want to tell people is that 237 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: we need to be honest about what we're really doing 238 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: in these things, because this is a kind of paganism 239 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: now right, This is a kind of like profits of 240 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: bail if maybe if we cut ourselves more, then God 241 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,719 Speaker 1: will show up. And it's and I want to name 242 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: that harshly because we need to see that actually what 243 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: it's doing is it's using God to get life on 244 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: our terms, whereas we need to come to Jesus the 245 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: same way we did in our conversions. And we need 246 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: to realize this is by grace alone. Like I'm not 247 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: generating a life. I'm not using God to get my 248 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: life back on track or to get more excited or 249 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: to fix things I am. I am presenting my body 250 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: as a living sacrifice, and I'm saying, Lord, I am yours. 251 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: I am going to rest in you and not in 252 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: my excitement, not in my joy, not in my activities, 253 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 1: not in my ministry, not in my And the weird 254 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: thing about that is is that as we draw near 255 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: to the Lord, there is the this purgative dynamic that 256 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: goes on. And that's what's so surprising, Like we we 257 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: kind of like Peter didn't sign up for this. Peter 258 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: didn't sign up to be called satan and to be exposed. 259 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 1: And I just think of Jesus, you know, he's on 260 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: the journey to the cross and he calls out to them, Hey, 261 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 1: what are you guys talking about? And they're all debating 262 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: who's the greatest among them? Ouch, Like that's what the 263 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: presence of God is like that God shows, let me 264 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: show you what is in your heart because I want 265 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: you to know how much I've forgiven you. I want 266 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: you to know ever more deeply how much I love you. 267 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: And we we tragically kind of want God superficially and 268 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: He wants us to grasp him fully. And it turns 269 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: out that all of our strategies undermine that. And that's 270 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: the great tragedy of the thing like if if God 271 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: would answer all our prayers as we present them, we 272 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 1: would embrace superficiality, we would never have faith, we would 273 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: get everything we want on our own terms. And the 274 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: real gift of God is to show us what is 275 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 1: in our hearts so that we can come to grasp 276 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: Him deeply. And I think that that is what's both 277 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: surprising to us but also the greatest gift we can 278 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: be given. 279 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: Absolutely. You know a phrase I think of that early 280 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 2: in my Christian life, I really had no idea what 281 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: it meant practically, which was like when Paul tells Timothy 282 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus, or Peter 283 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 2: says something similar to that, how do you do that? Like, 284 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: we need to go out and get three more books 285 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: to study grace and write really really have a robust 286 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 2: theology of grace in my brains. And what you're describing 287 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: is no, Maybe it's it's realizing how broad and how 288 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: deep my need grace actually is. And that's been my 289 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 2: faith experience over years. And as you're saying the tradition, 290 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: realizing there are darker shades of grace than I prefer. Yeah, 291 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 2: but they are good. They are grace. Nonetheless, that's right. 292 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know that Luke seven forty seven passage has 293 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: struck me so deeply that the path the Lord has 294 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 1: us on is to know how much we've been forgiven, 295 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: which means Lord willing. Ten years from now, I'll look 296 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: back on myself today and I'll think, Man, I was naive. 297 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: I had no idea, and even I had no idea 298 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: how tempted I was not to find the forgiveness of 299 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: God where I really needed it. And the temptation we 300 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: all have, I think, to find forgiveness in the things 301 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: we're willing to talk about or willing to see in ourselves, 302 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: but even to use you know, the language of James, 303 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: like the temptation to look in the mirror of the 304 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: word but then turn around and forget what I look like. 305 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 1: And that that that human temptation to to see a 306 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: little but not really attend. But what is actually going 307 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: on in me? Why did I just explode in rage 308 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: on the highway at that person? Why why would my 309 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: child said that? Did did I just get bugged? And 310 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: I just kind of reacted like, what's actually going on 311 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: in my soul? And what would it look like to 312 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: find the Lord in those places, the temptation to think 313 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: that I could just put on a kind of superficial 314 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: mask over all of these things, to put this veneer 315 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: of Christianity and and kind of look and project a 316 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,159 Speaker 1: certain way, and then and then and then basically to 317 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 1: live a faithless life, like you know, one of the 318 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,479 Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned your own life as you've kind 319 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: of considered your life with the Lord over these years. 320 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: Like I grew up in an evangelicalism that never would 321 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: have said this out loud, like no one was saying this, 322 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: But what I clearly was taught was that you need 323 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: faith to become a Christian. But the goal is to 324 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: never walk by faith, right, right, The goal is to 325 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: walk by sight. And so we were obsessed with metrics 326 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: and numbers and look at this and look at this, 327 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: and we were constantly kind of looking around and even 328 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: looking at our lives for a kind of stone to 329 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: stand on. And Jesus is so clearly this is the 330 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: sifting sand of this world. Look at me, And it's 331 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: amazing how deep that can sink into folks we're actually 332 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: trusting Jesus can begin to feel faithless because it it 333 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: the kind of texture of faith feels superficial to us 334 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 1: because we've been trained in a very worldly way of 335 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,399 Speaker 1: life and we're used to just kind of again painting 336 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: it with Christian colors. And I think Jesus has so 337 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 1: much more for us than that. But how we enter 338 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: his activity, just like the disciples right the times, they 339 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: didn't sign up for this. I think of you know, 340 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: in John six, when a bunch of the disciples abandoned Jesus, 341 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: and Jesus looks to the twelve and is like, are 342 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: you guys going too? And Peter, the way I hear 343 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: Peter here is a bit exasperated at this point. Peter's like, look, 344 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: where are we gonna go? Like I don't know, Like 345 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: you clearly have the words of life, but I don't 346 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: know what to do with what you're talking about. And 347 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: the remaining with Jesus in the midst of this confusion, 348 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: like faith does that, Faith says Jesus, it feels like 349 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 1: you've abandoned me. But Lord, I'm yours. All that I 350 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 1: have is yours, and I want I want to trust you. 351 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 1: Here it's the the older brother after the prodigal comes home, 352 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: who goes I stayed here. I've been working hard. I've 353 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: been doing what I was told. I'm good. Now we're 354 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: having a party for this kid? Are you serious? And real? Is? 355 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 2: Wow? 356 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 1: Lord? I don't look like you. I don't. I don't trust. 357 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: I don't overflowing grace like my father does like I don't. 358 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: And it's standing before the mirror and be willing to see, 359 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, I've actually become quite stingy, and my 360 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: heavenly Father isn't. And that's hard. I think a lot 361 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: of us have a hard time looking in that mirror. 362 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 1: Because we've been Christians a long time, we know all 363 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: the right answers, and we do have to learn, well, 364 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: Grace isn't just like I need another good book. It's no, 365 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: I actually have to come to discover how desperately I 366 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: need Jesus in every moment of my life, and maybe 367 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 1: especially in my pride at being a good Christian. 368 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: Oh gosh ouch. So I'm thinking, you know, sometimes when 369 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: I'm talking to folks, I will say my understanding of 370 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: Grace as a very young Christian was, man, did I 371 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 2: need that to get started? But I'm kind of hoping, 372 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 2: you know, somewhere when I'm forty or fifty or sixty, 373 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 2: I'll hardly need any grace at all because I'll have 374 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 2: solved things and fixed things. I know what I'm doing. 375 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 2: Like in my head, grace is like the spare tire, 376 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 2: I got it. I hope I never need it, you know, 377 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 2: instead of grace as the engine or something a little 378 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 2: more robust like that. 379 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know, a huge turning point for me 380 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: with grace. It was actually well, where I studied the 381 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 1: Institute for Spiritunation, it was profound, but that actually was 382 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: storting my PhD is actually studying kind of early evangelical 383 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: theology where I came. I was shocked at what I 384 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: found because what I realized is the evangelicalism I grew 385 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 1: up in we kind of self conceived as the Grace people, 386 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: Like we're the Grace people, right, And yet when I 387 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: heard people talk about grace, what was really funny is 388 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: we were we would The way we talked about is 389 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: very odd, because we'd say, you know, grace is a gift, like, yeah, 390 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: grace is a gift. It's free. Yeah, it's I didn't 391 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,239 Speaker 1: earn it. Yeah, And I was like, aren't we just 392 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: redefining grace over and overgat like gift over and over again, 393 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: Like I'm like, it would be really weird if you 394 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: showed up at my house on Christmas morning and my 395 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: kids are running around excited about all the presents they 396 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 1: got given, and you asked one of them, Oh, what 397 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: gift did you get given? And they said it was free. 398 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: He said, yeah, it was a gift, Like I didn't 399 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: earn it. It's like, I know what. And I realized, 400 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: like as a as a youth in evangelicalism, I knew 401 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: that I didn't earn grace. But if someone asked me, well, 402 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: what was the gift, yeah, I wouldn't know. And what 403 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 1: I found in early evangelicalism was the deep belief that 404 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: grace is God's self gift. That then when we talk 405 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: about grace, it's that God has given himself to you 406 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 1: in Christ Jesus. That God hasn't stood far off, but 407 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: God so loved the world that his love drove him 408 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: to you, to open his heart to you. And the 409 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: realization that salvation was about embracing Jesus because He is 410 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: embraced me, and then finding that that's that's Calvin, that's Luther, Like, 411 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: that's what these guys were on about. And I was 412 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: going on why didn't I hear this? 413 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, like grace, Grace was like a doorway. I'm sure 414 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: glad I found the door, and I'm sure glad I 415 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: stepped through it, But who knows how I relate to 416 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: grace from here on. 417 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right. 418 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 2: Well, I was gonna say one of the sections you 419 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: referenced it a little bit ago, but you talked about 420 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 2: some of the subtle ways we avoid God in intending 421 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: to seek God or to be faithful to God, And 422 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: I'd love you to revisit that because I think that's 423 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: really important, especially in light of this conversation about like 424 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: operative grace, lived grace, you know, ongoing grace, however you 425 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: want to label it. 426 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Well, so some of the you know, 427 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: there's so many these you get. I mean, I think 428 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,120 Speaker 1: the two big ones, there's really come two bigcause when 429 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: we spelled it out in different ways, the two big ones. 430 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: On the one hand, there's the temptation to think that 431 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: the Christian life will feel a certain kind of way. 432 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: So that's a little what we've been talking about. Like 433 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 1: early on, you come to get a sense of what 434 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: the normal Christian life would be, and and so usually 435 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: that's something like passion excitement, like I got to get 436 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: that back. And I mean, I think again of the 437 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: Child of the Church of my youth, the amount of 438 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: times we sang Lord like the Fire again, and it 439 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 1: was kind of like, Okay, Laura, let's let's get that back, 440 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: these kind of revival songs. And on the one end, 441 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: that's a temptation then to think that that this has 442 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: got to feel a certain way and the way I 443 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: like to put it for folks so many foot it's 444 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: so hard to see how devious this is. But imagine 445 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: you met an eighty year old couple who'd been married 446 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: for sixty years who told you, you know, oh, marriage has 447 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: gone a bit dry. I just think we need the 448 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: passion of dating back. You go, No, it seems misguided somehow. 449 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: That seems like I don't think that's right. Like there's 450 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: something deeper, you know, and it's and you know, passion. 451 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: And so one of the things we do is we 452 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: actually return to the old language. Is that there's a 453 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: difference between affection and passion. Yeah, passion is a very 454 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: childish kind of thing. Actually. It it doesn't light a 455 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: life on fire, but it feel it burns hot. It 456 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: burns quick, but it it doesn't shape a life, but 457 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,120 Speaker 1: affection does. Love does. But love is something that's deeper, 458 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: and it isn't always felt as any parent or any 459 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: person that's been a spouse for you know, decades, nos, 460 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: Like like, actually that the deeper love is that there, 461 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: it almost becomes the kind of bedrock of a life. 462 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: It's it's not this ephemeral thing. But we're so tempted 463 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: as Christians to grasp the ephemeral because it feels strong. 464 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 1: And then the other major temptation is moralism. And I 465 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 1: think the longer we're Christians, the more were actually tempted 466 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: by both of these things, but in different kinds of ways. 467 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: It is so tempting to just think, I guess I'd 468 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: be supposed to be good, and I guess I'm supposed 469 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: to just be more active and to be more And 470 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 1: the more becomes the word, I've got to do a 471 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: little more of this, I got to do a little 472 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: more of that, And then it takes on different shapes, 473 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: you know. So one of the examples we use is 474 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: like how a Christian relates to their conscience becomes really 475 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: important here because for many of us, we confuse God's 476 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 1: voice with our conscience, and as Bonhoeffer would remind us, 477 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot of Christians who are talking to themselves, 478 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: who claim to talk to God, and all they're really 479 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: doing is they're creating a God that they can navigate 480 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: who simply wants them to be good. And they find 481 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: that when they're good, their conscience stops paying and they 482 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: imagine that's God smiling upon them. And actually it's a 483 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 1: way to not have to stand before the whirlwind. It's 484 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: a way not have to come to before God as 485 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: he really is. And so there's all sorts of these 486 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: ways where we instead of actually drawing near in the 487 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: truth of our lives and resting that Jesus really did 488 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: it all for us, that I can actually come here 489 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:33,360 Speaker 1: and be seen and be known and be received, we 490 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: come into God's presence, and in one way or another 491 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: we're kind of like that child who's putting on a 492 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: kind of a little performance for their parents because they 493 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: just they're looking for the kind of response. And so 494 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: instead of showing up in prayer, we pray like we 495 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: imagine a good Christian would pray. Instead of really offering 496 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: God our lives, we just serve in ministry a bit more, 497 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: and we do all of these very things, and I 498 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: think so many of us just imagine, well, this, I 499 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: guess this is just what the Christian life is. I 500 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: guess this is just what it's become. And the problem 501 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: with all of these paths is they all lead us 502 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: to feeling consumed. And again, passion does this. It's when 503 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: we give ourselves to maybe I just need to be 504 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: more passionate, a little bit more excited, a little bit 505 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: better that one day we wake up and we don't 506 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: even realize until it's too late that like, ah, I'm 507 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: so tired and I just don't care anymore, that it 508 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: just feels like none of this matters, and we fail 509 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: to see that Actually the goal of this season is 510 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: to show us, my child, you were always with me. 511 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: As the father tells the older brother, all that is 512 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: mine is yours, my child, your mine, all that is 513 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: mine is yours. You could have it if you would 514 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: just embrace me. And we're just toiling away. And I 515 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: think of the the Lord's claim about Martha here that 516 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: there's so many of us who are are worried and 517 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,479 Speaker 1: anxious about so many things. Yeah, and we are toiling away, 518 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: and and the call of Mary to choose the deeper way, 519 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: the way where she just rests at the feet of Jesus. 520 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: And that isn't passive. That isn't a life where we're 521 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,240 Speaker 1: not doing anything. That isn't a that isn't a life 522 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: where we're not ministering or not we're not kind of engaging. 523 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: But it is a life that's resting on to quote 524 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: one of my favorite images, that that that finds itself 525 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: afloat on an entirely different element, the love of God, 526 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: and that sustains a life. And I think that that 527 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: is the invitation here, is to to have a life 528 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: that is sustained by a love whose depths are unfathomable. 529 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it strikes me that what you've just been 530 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: sharing and transitions to one of the things I think 531 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: was so important about your book or the clothes you 532 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: you and John emphasize that you know, ultimately we're not 533 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: transformed by all of our striving, intellectual striving, or ministry striving, 534 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 2: or moral striving, or any other numbers of strivings, but 535 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 2: simply by love and maybe that love passion contrast. Yeah, 536 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 2: I'd love to hear you say a little more about that, 537 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 2: because I think that's been my experience. It's quieter, it's 538 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: less about me. I realize how much I've imagined my thought, 539 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 2: my faith was about me. I'm trusting God, I'm serving God, 540 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: I'm working on myself. There's a lot of me in 541 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 2: that for some reason. 542 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: Hm, that's exactly right. Yeah, you know, this is what's 543 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: so amazing about Jesus. Because Jesus he calls us to 544 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: lose our lives so we can find them. He calls 545 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: us to be last so we could be first. He 546 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: calls us into our weakness, can no power. And the 547 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: problem with that is by faith weakness, it just kind 548 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: of feels weak, and losing our life just kind of 549 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: feels like losing a life. 550 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: Right. 551 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: But what we discover in that love is this is 552 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: a love that that kind of so gazes upon you 553 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: that you no longer have to obsessively strive to construct 554 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: a life because you know you're seen, you know your beloved. 555 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: You can actually find rest and it actually frees you 556 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: to live and to love. Whereas all the striving we 557 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: were doing creates this kind of vacuum, this kind of 558 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: black hole of the self, where now we're using other people. 559 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: Now we're kind of trying to mesh our life with 560 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: there so we can bolster ourselves with them, or to 561 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: manipulate them, or to And it all stems from a 562 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: kind of frigil where the shalom. The peace we know 563 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: in Jesus is a peace that rests in the fact 564 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: that that actually it's not about me, which is precisely 565 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: what makes it about me. That's the tension. I feel 566 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: like it's Galatians two twenty. It is no longer I 567 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: who live, but Christ in me, so that the life 568 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 1: I now live, Like, well, wait a second, you just 569 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: said it, Like how refuse there? Yeah, And it's but 570 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: that's what true love does. And I think of you know. 571 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: In John seventeen twenty six, when Jesus is praying to 572 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: the Father, he ends his prayer by saying, Father, give 573 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: them the love with which you loved me. And there's 574 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: something quite profound there, because Jesus doesn't ask the Father 575 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: to just love us. He says, give them the love, 576 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: so love us, love me, and you alan with the 577 00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: love that the Father pours out upon Jesus. And that 578 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: just is the spirit of love who pours forth love 579 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: into our hearts. As Paul tells us in Romans five. 580 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: And so the call of Jesus to the Father is God, Father, 581 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: so enlarge our relationship, that you would internalize them into us. 582 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: And that's why Jesus goes on to say that I 583 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: would be in them and that they would be in us. 584 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: And the realization that God doesn't love us from afar, 585 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 1: but that God so enlarges his life. This is Edwards's language. Actually, 586 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: that God so enlarges his life to us, that he 587 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: internalizes us in the very person of Jesus, so that 588 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: we come to know the growth that is from God, 589 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,760 Speaker 1: as Paul says in Classians two nineteen. And it's that 590 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: that sustains us. And it's you know, this is where 591 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: you know, I think that so many well meaning Christians 592 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: just present us with And it could be the evangelicism 593 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: we grew up in that was very active of you know, 594 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: it can be the spiritualation conversation that the times can 595 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: very quickly reduce down to, well, here's a bunch of 596 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 1: spiritual disciplines to do to grow when the reality is no, 597 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: you need to discover a love that reaches to the 598 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,399 Speaker 1: depths of your very person, a love that calls out 599 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,720 Speaker 1: from the deep places with groanings too deep for words, 600 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: that invites you into those depths to rest and to 601 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: know the love of God. And you know, it's the 602 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: reality of love that helps us see that I can't 603 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: grow myself, that I actually need another and it actually 604 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: is is spiritual practices aren't something that I use to grow, 605 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: but to use the old language, their means of grace, 606 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: their means of receiving God's self gift. And so as 607 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,919 Speaker 1: Christ has embraced me, these are means of receiving Him 608 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: and offering myself back to Him. And I think that 609 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: that changes the dynamic of what this is, and it 610 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: helps me understand that actually transformation is really a kind 611 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,720 Speaker 1: of It is a soul that has been recharacterized in love, 612 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: and that it isn't I'm not a mechanic that's crawling 613 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: down into my person and tightening the bolts and you know, 614 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 1: supercharging the engine and doing all of these things. I'm 615 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: actually someone that has so deeply received something from the Lord, 616 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: is so deeply seen and known in love that I 617 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: can live from that and for that, and I think 618 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: that you know the last Jedous chapter nine, as you mentioned, 619 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: the summary of that chapter is you are formed in love. 620 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,359 Speaker 1: You are formed by love, and you are formed for love. 621 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: And that's an entirely different kind of formation. And that's 622 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: why it is on grace, because to know love and 623 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: to be formed by love, you need a God who 624 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: moved toward you in love, not because you deserved it, 625 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: not because you got your act together, not because you 626 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: wowed him, but because of his steadfast love. To quote 627 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: the psalmist As, the Psalmist never tires of saying, it's 628 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 1: because of your steadfast love that you came and meet us. 629 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: And so it's out of the love of God, that 630 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: is an infinite fountain of love, that he comes to 631 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: you and offers himself to you. And so that that 632 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: is the kind of love that just changes a life. 633 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: And so the invitation is to ever more deeply know 634 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: that love. 635 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,320 Speaker 2: Yep, that's so good. Well, maybe a couple things before 636 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 2: we close one. A lot of our listeners, you know, 637 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 2: are Christian leaders, maybe they're pastors, maybe they're just leaders 638 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 2: in their organizational setting, who knows. And I find that 639 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 2: it can be especially difficult to walk through seasons where 640 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 2: it feels like God's dis when you're sort of the 641 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: curator of this community of faith and you don't seem 642 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: to have any you know, you put it bluntly, talk 643 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 2: about how we can navigate places like that when we're 644 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 2: in a position of sort of spiritual leadership. 645 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. No, that's that's a great question. You know. 646 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: We actually we end the book with various paths you 647 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 1: could take. It was kind of a choose you and 648 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 1: adventure things. We we kind of knew there's different readers 649 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: and and one of the passes based on this question 650 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: actually because we just kind of know, Yeah, if you're 651 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 1: a pastor, or I think of mission my friends who 652 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: are missionaries, like, you're not going to send your your 653 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: missionary letter out to all the people funding you, and 654 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 1: I'd be like, you know what, I wake up every 655 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: morning and think I don't want to do this anymore. 656 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: It's all feels to fund that, isn't it. That's right? 657 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: Or or my my friends who are who are in 658 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: full time pastoral ministry, You're you're probably not going to 659 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: toe to your elder board and be like, you know, 660 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,720 Speaker 1: the Bible feels like death. And every time I preach, 661 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: I think I wish I would in doing this anymore. 662 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: And I'll say to you, I preach monthly. So I 663 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: am on a preaching team and I help run a 664 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: church as an elder, and I've gone through plenty of seasons. 665 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: That's exactly how I felt. Yep, you know, And I 666 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 1: want to be very realistic about this too, because there's 667 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: many of you that may be listening to this and 668 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 1: you can't tell your elder board that I would love 669 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: to say you could, but you might know I can't. 670 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,440 Speaker 1: Like these individuals would simply not know, and actually it 671 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: might not even be good for them. And this is 672 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: where I think spiritual friendships are going to be profound, 673 00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: but also where spiritual direction, particularly for pastors ministries like Alan's, 674 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, where you can find that We're going to 675 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: retreat where you can find a spiritual director, where you 676 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: could find someone who doesn't need you to have your 677 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: act together, They don't need you to wow them, they 678 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: don't need you have some brilliant spiritual insight, but who 679 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: will just sit with you in the presence of the 680 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: Lord and help you find the Lord in the midst 681 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: of these seasons. You know. One of the things that 682 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: kind of surprised me as part of this book, I 683 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: did a deep dive into the Protestant tradition and how 684 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,800 Speaker 1: the Protestant tradition is viewed what we often call the 685 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,840 Speaker 1: dark Knight of the soul, they would sometimes call it 686 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: that way, they'd often call the spiritual desertion. But one 687 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: of the things that struck me is this amazing, given 688 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: how little the Protestantism I have ever known has talked 689 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: about this, is they say their biggest worry is when 690 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 1: someone goes to these seasons, they won't find someone to 691 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: guide them, and they'll try to navigate it on their 692 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: own or question their salvation. And as we talked about 693 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,560 Speaker 1: earlier on, they'll start going, well it must be me right, 694 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: like you know, someone that's well meaning will say to them, well, 695 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: God didn't move, so it must be you right, like 696 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,160 Speaker 1: you know. It's like, well, it's so fascinating that we 697 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: have an entire tradition behind us that warned us about this. 698 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: And this is where I have found, particularly for pastors 699 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: or missionaries, you know, having a spiritual director can be 700 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: so meaningful where they have someone that can help them 701 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,440 Speaker 1: navigate these seasons. But then also I have just found 702 00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: such encouragement to read some of these folks from the 703 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: tradition and to realize, like this isn't alien to us, 704 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:22,560 Speaker 1: This isn't new, Like Charles Spurgeon talked about it, Richard Simstom, 705 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 1: but Jonathan Edward's talked about like to know that like okay, 706 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: I mean even that can be just a bit grounding. 707 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: But I would encourage folks if you find yourself in 708 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 1: a season like this, particularly if you're not just dry, 709 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,399 Speaker 1: but you'd add something to that, like, man, I feel Lord, 710 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: it feels like you've abandoned me here. I would say, 711 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,360 Speaker 1: you need to find someone who will help walk you 712 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,520 Speaker 1: through these things, find someone who will partner with you, 713 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 1: who will meet with you regularly, and find some friends 714 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: that you're able to share with about this. And I 715 00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,919 Speaker 1: say that hesitantly because I've met so many pastors who 716 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,799 Speaker 1: think I don't have friends I could talk to you 717 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: about this or about anything spiritual and and like and 718 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: I just want to name a little bit like that 719 00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: is so tragic and and may the Lord lead friends 720 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: who can walk with you, and and how many pastors 721 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: could use other pastors to help them with this and 722 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: to help shepherd each other. And the tragedy is I 723 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: realize there's not a lot of folks that have that. 724 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: So but find someone, particularly as someone like a spiritual 725 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 1: director who has training who can help walk you into 726 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: the mess of this and and really help you discover 727 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,840 Speaker 1: this too. Is a gift. As hard as it is 728 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: to see, the Lord offers something unique in this season. 729 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's an opportunity here to grow in faith, 730 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 2: your real faith, rooted faith. There's a chance to grow 731 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 2: in you know, grace, a sense of God's empowering presence. 732 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,160 Speaker 2: There's a there's an opportunity you're you're describing to grow 733 00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 2: in love, the great commandment, the most important thing. So well, Kyle, 734 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 2: thank you so much for writing this book. You and 735 00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 2: John and I've really enjoyed our conversation. Again today my 736 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 2: guest has been Kyle Strouble and we've been talking about 737 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 2: his book When God Feels Distant. Thanks again for having 738 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 2: this time together. 739 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Alan, so good to be with you, brother. 740 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to the Unhurry Living podcast. To 741 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 2: learn more about us, visit unhurryliving dot com. In the 742 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 2: show notes, you'll find helpful links and information about our partner, 743 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,879 Speaker 2: Live Audio and all of their other faith centered podcasts.