1 00:00:20,186 --> 00:00:20,746 Speaker 1: Hi, friend. 2 00:00:20,846 --> 00:00:23,546 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're here today. Let's learn how to 3 00:00:23,646 --> 00:00:27,646 Speaker 2: raise our kids to love God, respect authority, and do 4 00:00:27,766 --> 00:00:32,616 Speaker 2: what's right. Let's scroll less and live more. I'm Arlene Pelican, 5 00:00:32,775 --> 00:00:38,915 Speaker 2: and this is The Happy Home. I'm so happy to 6 00:00:38,976 --> 00:00:42,215 Speaker 2: have Dr. Charles Fay on the podcast. And if any 7 00:00:42,256 --> 00:00:45,056 Speaker 2: of you are familiar or maybe your parents were familiar 8 00:00:45,216 --> 00:00:48,026 Speaker 2: with Love & Logic, you'll be very happy to know 9 00:00:48,046 --> 00:00:51,306 Speaker 2: that I have the president of Love & Logic Institute 10 00:00:51,325 --> 00:00:51,966 Speaker 2: with us, Dr. 11 00:00:52,006 --> 00:00:52,266 Speaker 1: Fay. 12 00:00:52,605 --> 00:00:55,366 Speaker 2: He is a psychologist and he has a new book 13 00:00:55,465 --> 00:00:57,866 Speaker 2: that I love the title and the heart of the book. 14 00:00:58,496 --> 00:01:03,216 Speaker 2: Raising Spiritually Strong Kids. Charles, welcome to the podcast. 15 00:01:03,476 --> 00:01:06,616 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thank you 16 00:01:06,636 --> 00:01:08,566 Speaker 1: listeners for listening. I appreciate you. 17 00:01:08,575 --> 00:01:12,446 Speaker 2: And it's your father that started the Love & Logic Institute. 18 00:01:12,486 --> 00:01:16,726 Speaker 1: Yes, and Dr. Foster Klein, a great friend of our family, 19 00:01:16,806 --> 00:01:19,926 Speaker 1: great man. The two of them got together and started 20 00:01:19,965 --> 00:01:21,006 Speaker 1: this back in the mid-70s. 21 00:01:22,036 --> 00:01:24,816 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to have you explain just those principles, 22 00:01:24,856 --> 00:01:27,895 Speaker 2: the core principles, because I think that's helpful for anyone, 23 00:01:28,176 --> 00:01:30,636 Speaker 2: no matter how old your kids are. But as we 24 00:01:30,676 --> 00:01:33,675 Speaker 2: kick off, you know, your kids are, I think, grown now. 25 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:34,435 Speaker 2: Is that correct? 26 00:01:34,715 --> 00:01:35,235 Speaker 1: That's correct. 27 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:38,316 Speaker 2: And so I want to go back to when you 28 00:01:38,336 --> 00:01:41,876 Speaker 2: are studying psychology. So you're very attuned to such things. 29 00:01:42,396 --> 00:01:46,075 Speaker 2: And you have a two-year-old and your two-year-old is having 30 00:01:46,096 --> 00:01:48,836 Speaker 2: a meltdown. You're a toddler. You're trying to have breakfast. 31 00:01:48,856 --> 00:01:49,726 Speaker 2: There's chaos. 32 00:01:49,986 --> 00:01:54,166 Speaker 1: What happens? I have no clue. I have so much 33 00:01:54,226 --> 00:01:56,926 Speaker 1: information in my head, and I bet some of the 34 00:01:56,986 --> 00:01:59,726 Speaker 1: listeners feel this way. You've listened to a number of podcasts, 35 00:01:59,766 --> 00:02:03,066 Speaker 1: you've taken classes, you've read books, and now you're wondering, 36 00:02:03,086 --> 00:02:05,166 Speaker 1: am I worse off than ever because I'm just so 37 00:02:05,226 --> 00:02:11,786 Speaker 1: clogged up? There's so many different opinions. So I'm going 38 00:02:11,806 --> 00:02:14,626 Speaker 1: through my mental filing cabinet and it's a mess. Everything's 39 00:02:14,706 --> 00:02:18,596 Speaker 1: out of order. And meanwhile, we're in the restaurant. I'm 40 00:02:18,636 --> 00:02:21,296 Speaker 1: trying to give mom a break. So I'm going to 41 00:02:21,316 --> 00:02:23,716 Speaker 1: be this great dad, take the kid out. We're trying 42 00:02:23,756 --> 00:02:25,996 Speaker 1: to have breakfast. He's standing on the chair. He's not 43 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:29,606 Speaker 1: sitting down. He's screaming. Other people are looking at me. 44 00:02:30,466 --> 00:02:34,066 Speaker 1: And I'm just I'm just totally lost. And I don't 45 00:02:34,106 --> 00:02:36,736 Speaker 1: even remember how I handled it other than I grumbled 46 00:02:36,916 --> 00:02:39,376 Speaker 1: quite a bit and left and did not resolve the 47 00:02:39,436 --> 00:02:44,195 Speaker 1: issue whatsoever. Um, and we had this wonderful neighbor. This 48 00:02:44,236 --> 00:02:46,335 Speaker 1: was when I was in graduate school at the university 49 00:02:46,376 --> 00:02:50,156 Speaker 1: of South Carolina and had this wonderful neighbor. And she was, 50 00:02:50,376 --> 00:02:53,106 Speaker 1: she was a really strong Christian. And I, I went 51 00:02:53,166 --> 00:02:55,386 Speaker 1: over and I was just lamenting to her. I'm like, 52 00:02:55,425 --> 00:02:57,586 Speaker 1: what do I do? I should, I should drop out 53 00:02:57,626 --> 00:03:01,065 Speaker 1: of graduate school. I, you know, stuff. And, and she, 54 00:03:01,686 --> 00:03:04,565 Speaker 1: she was so sweet and she just was very graceful. 55 00:03:04,585 --> 00:03:07,256 Speaker 1: And she said, Oh, bless your heart. You know? And 56 00:03:07,316 --> 00:03:10,836 Speaker 1: she said, she said, you just all locked up. Oh, 57 00:03:12,246 --> 00:03:14,946 Speaker 1: And she said, you're just trying to remember too many things. 58 00:03:15,026 --> 00:03:18,266 Speaker 1: And she said, the Lord's got this. I remember her 59 00:03:18,305 --> 00:03:20,846 Speaker 1: saying that very well. And at that point in my life, 60 00:03:21,126 --> 00:03:23,976 Speaker 1: I wasn't so sure about that. I was struggling with 61 00:03:23,986 --> 00:03:26,996 Speaker 1: some doubt. And she kept saying, the Lord's got this. 62 00:03:27,136 --> 00:03:29,976 Speaker 1: And she said, you just got to be loving and strong. 63 00:03:30,156 --> 00:03:32,916 Speaker 1: And she kept saying that. And she said, you pray 64 00:03:32,936 --> 00:03:38,336 Speaker 1: to him. He's where we get our power. He's the 65 00:03:38,576 --> 00:03:42,456 Speaker 1: vine and we're the branches. And don't get that mixed up. 66 00:03:42,496 --> 00:03:44,896 Speaker 1: Don't get it switched around in your head. And she 67 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:49,346 Speaker 1: gave me this good, loving, slightly stern but graceful lecture 68 00:03:49,386 --> 00:03:51,506 Speaker 1: about that. And I walked out and I thought, you know, 69 00:03:51,546 --> 00:03:52,366 Speaker 1: she's right. Yeah. 70 00:03:55,236 --> 00:03:58,226 Speaker 2: Loving and strong and don't get all locked up. 71 00:03:58,336 --> 00:03:58,815 Speaker 1: I love that. 72 00:03:58,916 --> 00:04:00,296 Speaker 2: Don't get all locked up. 73 00:04:00,796 --> 00:04:03,176 Speaker 1: And we do. We get locked up. And this has 74 00:04:03,196 --> 00:04:06,656 Speaker 1: been a problem for the church since the beginning. Paul 75 00:04:06,796 --> 00:04:09,276 Speaker 1: essentially wrote about this quite a bit in his letters, 76 00:04:09,316 --> 00:04:12,236 Speaker 1: his epistles to the church. And it's getting locked up 77 00:04:12,296 --> 00:04:15,256 Speaker 1: in trying to do everything through works, through our own, 78 00:04:15,296 --> 00:04:18,536 Speaker 1: you know, can I, if I just work hard enough 79 00:04:18,566 --> 00:04:21,076 Speaker 1: to I'm going to be this great Christian and I'm 80 00:04:21,096 --> 00:04:24,176 Speaker 1: going to be, I'm going to have salvation guaranteed if 81 00:04:24,456 --> 00:04:27,736 Speaker 1: I work hard enough and I can save my kids 82 00:04:27,876 --> 00:04:31,036 Speaker 1: if I work hard enough. And that's not the gospel. Wow. 83 00:04:31,056 --> 00:04:35,416 Speaker 2: It's not the true gospel. Help us understand that because we, 84 00:04:35,815 --> 00:04:38,716 Speaker 2: our kids are not going to get saved by works. Right. 85 00:04:38,755 --> 00:04:41,695 Speaker 2: We're not going to be saved by works, but we 86 00:04:41,755 --> 00:04:45,546 Speaker 2: are also right. We are saved by grace, right? But 87 00:04:45,586 --> 00:04:49,306 Speaker 2: now we're God's masterpiece called to do good works. Help 88 00:04:49,386 --> 00:04:52,076 Speaker 2: the parent understand this, because it's not like we're saying 89 00:04:52,096 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 2: there are no works involved, but that's not the way 90 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:55,116 Speaker 2: of salvation. 91 00:04:55,136 --> 00:04:58,056 Speaker 1: So good. Such a great point. And that's the tension. Okay, 92 00:04:58,096 --> 00:05:01,976 Speaker 1: so we go to Ephesians 2, Ephesians chapter 2, 8 93 00:05:01,976 --> 00:05:05,445 Speaker 1: through 10. We see that we're saved by grace through faith. 94 00:05:06,136 --> 00:05:10,226 Speaker 1: in christ not of ourselves not by works so that 95 00:05:10,346 --> 00:05:13,386 Speaker 1: nobody can boast right so we so we can't say 96 00:05:13,406 --> 00:05:15,566 Speaker 1: hey look at me look at you i really got 97 00:05:15,606 --> 00:05:18,426 Speaker 1: it going on right so we're saved by grace through 98 00:05:18,466 --> 00:05:21,285 Speaker 1: faith and and let me let me say grace alone 99 00:05:22,646 --> 00:05:26,046 Speaker 1: yeah we don't add anything to it yeah we're spiritually 100 00:05:26,086 --> 00:05:30,466 Speaker 1: bankrupt come to the table we have nothing and and 101 00:05:30,505 --> 00:05:35,106 Speaker 1: so it's by grace and grace alone we are saved 102 00:05:35,146 --> 00:05:37,226 Speaker 1: by grace through faith, and this is not of ourselves, 103 00:05:37,246 --> 00:05:40,526 Speaker 1: this is a gift from God. But then it goes 104 00:05:40,626 --> 00:05:46,026 Speaker 1: on to say that we're his masterpiece, created in Christ 105 00:05:46,086 --> 00:05:49,255 Speaker 1: Jesus to do good works, which he prepared in advance 106 00:05:49,296 --> 00:05:53,275 Speaker 1: for us to do. So the basic soundbite, if you will, 107 00:05:53,376 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 1: is that we're not saved by works, our own works, 108 00:06:00,096 --> 00:06:01,916 Speaker 1: but we are saved to do good works. 109 00:06:02,216 --> 00:06:02,376 Speaker 2: Yeah. 110 00:06:03,276 --> 00:06:05,886 Speaker 1: He does the saving and that empowers us to do 111 00:06:05,906 --> 00:06:08,746 Speaker 1: the works for the right reason and with the right 112 00:06:08,786 --> 00:06:09,406 Speaker 1: power source. 113 00:06:10,486 --> 00:06:12,445 Speaker 2: And a lot of those good works, they're in your 114 00:06:12,526 --> 00:06:14,706 Speaker 2: own family because that's kind of where you do the 115 00:06:14,786 --> 00:06:16,885 Speaker 2: most work. And that's why I think it's so important 116 00:06:16,906 --> 00:06:20,436 Speaker 2: how you've written this Raising Spiritually Strong Kids. I was 117 00:06:20,496 --> 00:06:24,276 Speaker 2: talking to a dear mom. She's got one daughter who's three. 118 00:06:25,096 --> 00:06:27,876 Speaker 2: And she was just saying like, I'm just so afraid 119 00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:31,256 Speaker 2: to mess this up. Like, I'm just so worried that 120 00:06:31,296 --> 00:06:34,846 Speaker 2: I'm going to do this wrong. And you wrote in 121 00:06:34,876 --> 00:06:38,626 Speaker 2: your book, it's not about perfection. The parents who simply 122 00:06:38,686 --> 00:06:42,166 Speaker 2: do their best to be loving and demonstrate strength by 123 00:06:42,246 --> 00:06:45,946 Speaker 2: saying no unnecessary end up raising better adjusted kids than 124 00:06:46,065 --> 00:06:51,286 Speaker 2: parents who obsess over being perfect. So let's talk at first, 125 00:06:51,326 --> 00:06:53,976 Speaker 2: like how, if we are obsessing about being perfect and 126 00:06:54,536 --> 00:06:57,486 Speaker 2: How might we kind of stop doing that? What would 127 00:06:57,526 --> 00:06:58,705 Speaker 2: give us relief from that? 128 00:06:59,505 --> 00:07:03,626 Speaker 1: Well, going back to Ephesians 2, 8 through 10, and 129 00:07:03,666 --> 00:07:09,486 Speaker 1: really absorbing that and seeing that it's not all on us. 130 00:07:09,886 --> 00:07:10,206 Speaker 2: Yeah. 131 00:07:11,266 --> 00:07:16,215 Speaker 1: And, you know, if we mess up, there's grace. See, 132 00:07:16,916 --> 00:07:25,796 Speaker 1: God is ultimately... in control, ultimately powerful, ultimately good, holy, holy, holy, 133 00:07:26,456 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 1: three times holy, okay? So he's not going to let 134 00:07:30,176 --> 00:07:34,736 Speaker 1: this not accomplish his goals. I mean, it's just going 135 00:07:34,756 --> 00:07:38,536 Speaker 1: to happen. In fact, we could try to thwart those goals, 136 00:07:38,636 --> 00:07:40,586 Speaker 1: and good luck with that. We're not going to be 137 00:07:40,666 --> 00:07:45,476 Speaker 1: able to. So that's the great news. is that we 138 00:07:45,556 --> 00:07:50,256 Speaker 1: have a pretty limited assignment. It's a big one, but 139 00:07:50,476 --> 00:07:55,016 Speaker 1: it's a limited assignment. And that is that we are 140 00:07:55,086 --> 00:07:58,566 Speaker 1: faithful to Him. We are obedient to Him. In other words, 141 00:07:58,906 --> 00:08:02,226 Speaker 1: we really try to model Him. what it looks like 142 00:08:02,246 --> 00:08:04,906 Speaker 1: to be living in the gospel and living for him. 143 00:08:06,186 --> 00:08:12,166 Speaker 1: We instruct our children about him. We teach them about 144 00:08:12,266 --> 00:08:16,316 Speaker 1: him and his ways. And then when we do our discipline, 145 00:08:16,356 --> 00:08:20,416 Speaker 1: we try to emulate how he disciplines us. And let's 146 00:08:20,456 --> 00:08:25,736 Speaker 1: be clear, it's discipline. It's not condemnation. There's now no 147 00:08:25,836 --> 00:08:27,376 Speaker 1: condemnation in Christ Jesus. 148 00:08:27,816 --> 00:08:30,396 Speaker 2: Yeah. Let's go there. And we're going to, I have 149 00:08:30,756 --> 00:08:32,876 Speaker 2: other questions as well that we're going to talk about 150 00:08:33,076 --> 00:08:36,336 Speaker 2: spiritual growth and how we over-rescue and how that might stunt. 151 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:38,296 Speaker 2: So we're going to get there in a second. But 152 00:08:38,356 --> 00:08:42,646 Speaker 2: this whole idea that you wrote about also, let me 153 00:08:42,686 --> 00:08:45,426 Speaker 2: try to find, I want to find the quote, our anger, 154 00:08:45,446 --> 00:08:47,966 Speaker 2: because let's just be real, right? When you're with that 155 00:08:47,986 --> 00:08:50,606 Speaker 2: toddler and he's screaming, you're not feeling like, I feel 156 00:08:50,626 --> 00:08:52,766 Speaker 2: the fruit of the spirit right now. You know, you're 157 00:08:52,786 --> 00:08:54,866 Speaker 2: feeling like, oh my goodness, what is this kid doing? 158 00:08:55,366 --> 00:08:57,646 Speaker 2: And we can be angry with our kids. You know, 159 00:08:57,726 --> 00:09:00,076 Speaker 2: I can lash out at my teenager. I mean, I 160 00:09:00,066 --> 00:09:02,136 Speaker 2: just did it. Like, why didn't you do the dishes? 161 00:09:02,196 --> 00:09:03,976 Speaker 2: I asked you to do the dishes. Why didn't you 162 00:09:03,996 --> 00:09:06,496 Speaker 2: do them? You had all day. Why didn't you do them? 163 00:09:06,556 --> 00:09:09,536 Speaker 2: And it comes out this way and hear you right. 164 00:09:09,576 --> 00:09:10,176 Speaker 1: And it's so good. 165 00:09:10,296 --> 00:09:14,036 Speaker 2: Our anger gives kids a reason to be upset with us. 166 00:09:14,966 --> 00:09:18,206 Speaker 2: Our empathy allows them to be upset with their own 167 00:09:18,486 --> 00:09:22,666 Speaker 2: poor decisions. And I really like this because if we 168 00:09:22,746 --> 00:09:26,416 Speaker 2: can do this discipline, But take out the harsh tone, 169 00:09:26,476 --> 00:09:29,666 Speaker 2: the condemnation tone, really asking the Lord, change me so 170 00:09:29,716 --> 00:09:32,266 Speaker 2: I can almost be robotic in my discipline and not 171 00:09:32,286 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 2: this mean, harsh person. Because then your child is just saying, oh, 172 00:09:35,666 --> 00:09:37,466 Speaker 2: my mom is so mean. My dad is so mean. 173 00:09:37,506 --> 00:09:39,486 Speaker 2: And they don't hear what is it I'm trying to say. 174 00:09:39,546 --> 00:09:43,306 Speaker 2: But if I take that out and they sit with 175 00:09:43,506 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 2: the consequences of what they did or with the realization 176 00:09:46,256 --> 00:09:48,516 Speaker 2: of what they did. So help us get there. How 177 00:09:48,776 --> 00:09:50,216 Speaker 2: do we get more like this? 178 00:09:50,966 --> 00:09:53,766 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you a little story about a mom. 179 00:09:53,826 --> 00:09:56,296 Speaker 1: She goes off to the store. She's got twin three-year-olds. 180 00:09:56,956 --> 00:10:00,396 Speaker 1: So she's really getting humbled. I mean, kids are great 181 00:10:00,436 --> 00:10:04,836 Speaker 1: for sanctification. I mean, they are perfect. And they're begging 182 00:10:04,876 --> 00:10:08,296 Speaker 1: for everything. And in the past, she'd throw out all 183 00:10:08,316 --> 00:10:11,216 Speaker 1: of her Christianese and start saying things like, for crying 184 00:10:11,216 --> 00:10:13,466 Speaker 1: out loud, money doesn't grow on trees, and things like that. 185 00:10:14,206 --> 00:10:16,916 Speaker 1: This time, no. She says, I'm really good at practice 186 00:10:16,926 --> 00:10:19,736 Speaker 1: to love and logic. And the first point about love 187 00:10:19,756 --> 00:10:23,856 Speaker 1: and logic is very few words. Use very few words. Okay. 188 00:10:24,376 --> 00:10:27,616 Speaker 1: That's all throughout scripture, by the way. Very few words. OK, 189 00:10:28,196 --> 00:10:30,756 Speaker 1: so they're begging, you know, we're going to have these. 190 00:10:30,796 --> 00:10:32,936 Speaker 1: You're going to buy these. We need these. You know, 191 00:10:32,956 --> 00:10:35,016 Speaker 1: we've one of us. These our whole life. And there 192 00:10:35,076 --> 00:10:40,446 Speaker 1: were those originals candies. And and so she thinks, why not? 193 00:10:40,766 --> 00:10:43,906 Speaker 1: Kids learn from making mistakes. So she says, if you 194 00:10:43,966 --> 00:10:45,966 Speaker 1: can afford them, you can have them. Do you have 195 00:10:46,006 --> 00:10:48,906 Speaker 1: any money? And they're thinking really hard. They're three kids. 196 00:10:49,876 --> 00:10:52,296 Speaker 1: But they throw them in the cart anyway. So she 197 00:10:52,316 --> 00:10:54,376 Speaker 1: doesn't fight with them. You know, in the past, she'd 198 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:57,346 Speaker 1: give them lectures about diabetes and tooth decay. This time, no. 199 00:10:58,416 --> 00:11:00,536 Speaker 1: So they're going through the store and she's as happy 200 00:11:00,636 --> 00:11:03,496 Speaker 1: as can be. Right. And and they're happy, too. And 201 00:11:03,536 --> 00:11:06,116 Speaker 1: they get to the checkout clerk and she says to 202 00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 1: the checkout clerk, this is my stuff. I'm going to 203 00:11:08,396 --> 00:11:10,556 Speaker 1: pay for it. I told them that they could have 204 00:11:10,616 --> 00:11:13,056 Speaker 1: this as long as they could afford it before we left. 205 00:11:13,096 --> 00:11:14,636 Speaker 1: I don't know if they have any money, but you 206 00:11:14,676 --> 00:11:17,136 Speaker 1: guys can work that out. Well, he looks at them 207 00:11:17,156 --> 00:11:19,976 Speaker 1: and he says, do you have any money? And they're 208 00:11:19,996 --> 00:11:23,576 Speaker 1: just speechless. And so he takes a candy and he says, well, 209 00:11:23,616 --> 00:11:25,876 Speaker 1: that's too bad. Right. And then they go out and 210 00:11:25,896 --> 00:11:31,026 Speaker 1: they're crying. Oh, they're so upset. And she doesn't yell. Yeah. 211 00:11:31,286 --> 00:11:34,986 Speaker 1: She just said, oh, you didn't have any money. Oh, 212 00:11:35,786 --> 00:11:39,646 Speaker 1: that is such a bummer. That's so sad. Yeah, you're mean. Oh, 213 00:11:40,626 --> 00:11:43,276 Speaker 1: I always get so sad when I can't afford something 214 00:11:43,356 --> 00:11:45,456 Speaker 1: that that I want, which is truth. 215 00:11:45,556 --> 00:11:45,816 Speaker 2: Right. 216 00:11:46,576 --> 00:11:49,816 Speaker 1: And so they're in the car now. And they're still 217 00:11:50,056 --> 00:11:55,746 Speaker 1: they're still kind of they're lamenting. You know, isn't this 218 00:11:55,806 --> 00:11:58,566 Speaker 1: part of faith development? Mommy didn't give it to me. 219 00:11:58,586 --> 00:12:00,766 Speaker 1: Isn't it what we all go through? 220 00:12:00,846 --> 00:12:02,016 Speaker 2: Father, why? 221 00:12:02,256 --> 00:12:04,996 Speaker 1: Why? You know, how come? Not fair. You know, we 222 00:12:05,076 --> 00:12:07,456 Speaker 1: do that. It's part of the process. 223 00:12:07,816 --> 00:12:08,096 Speaker 2: Yeah. 224 00:12:08,836 --> 00:12:13,006 Speaker 1: He allows us to struggle. So that we can see 225 00:12:13,066 --> 00:12:18,546 Speaker 1: our dependency on him. And so that we can see that, yes, 226 00:12:18,626 --> 00:12:22,276 Speaker 1: we can grow through trials. And so they're in the 227 00:12:22,316 --> 00:12:26,116 Speaker 1: car and it dawns on her. I don't have to 228 00:12:26,176 --> 00:12:30,696 Speaker 1: teach them the lesson. I can allow this experience to 229 00:12:30,756 --> 00:12:35,646 Speaker 1: teach the lesson. And that experience didn't happen on accident. Yes. 230 00:12:35,726 --> 00:12:39,506 Speaker 1: As Christians, we know that that didn't happen on accident. Okay. Yeah. 231 00:12:39,526 --> 00:12:42,496 Speaker 1: So they're in the car. And finally, one of them says, 232 00:12:43,816 --> 00:12:48,596 Speaker 1: stuff costs too much. And mom says, oh, hey, that's 233 00:12:48,636 --> 00:12:51,356 Speaker 1: called inflation. And they said something really smart. They said, 234 00:12:51,416 --> 00:12:56,936 Speaker 1: inflation's bad. She says, I know. Now they're like really 235 00:12:57,006 --> 00:13:00,046 Speaker 1: in sync. You know, they get home. She says, how 236 00:13:00,566 --> 00:13:04,166 Speaker 1: about if we have some milk and eat some cookies 237 00:13:04,226 --> 00:13:07,986 Speaker 1: and read stories together? Yeah. That'll make it feel better. 238 00:13:08,166 --> 00:13:11,226 Speaker 1: So now she's the good guy. Yes. And she said 239 00:13:11,246 --> 00:13:14,406 Speaker 1: it just hit me, that whole idea that I can 240 00:13:14,446 --> 00:13:18,526 Speaker 1: set a limit. Yeah. And she did. And from time 241 00:13:18,566 --> 00:13:22,566 Speaker 1: to time, I can allow kids to make affordable mistakes, which, 242 00:13:22,626 --> 00:13:27,446 Speaker 1: by the way, the Lord lets us do, right? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. 243 00:13:28,136 --> 00:13:35,396 Speaker 1: And then I can extend a grace, which includes allowing 244 00:13:35,696 --> 00:13:37,296 Speaker 1: people to experience consequences. 245 00:13:37,316 --> 00:13:37,796 Speaker 2: Yeah. 246 00:13:37,816 --> 00:13:43,936 Speaker 1: Yeah. Grace is not permissiveness. Mm-hmm. Paul also dealt with 247 00:13:43,976 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 1: that in the churches. 248 00:13:45,376 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 2: Yeah. 249 00:13:46,196 --> 00:13:51,536 Speaker 1: Okay? Grace is not permissiveness. Grace is whatever we can 250 00:13:51,676 --> 00:13:54,966 Speaker 1: extend to our kids that will help them benefit the 251 00:13:55,006 --> 00:13:57,026 Speaker 1: most in the long term, what is ultimately good for 252 00:13:57,046 --> 00:13:58,326 Speaker 1: them in the long term. 253 00:13:58,786 --> 00:13:59,046 Speaker 2: Yeah. 254 00:14:01,066 --> 00:14:02,946 Speaker 1: Now, they went back to the store. Did she say 255 00:14:02,986 --> 00:14:03,446 Speaker 1: another word? 256 00:14:03,466 --> 00:14:03,526 Speaker 2: No. 257 00:14:04,346 --> 00:14:09,976 Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. I mean, when you're going through life, do you 258 00:14:09,996 --> 00:14:13,016 Speaker 1: hear this voice, like this big hand coming down, kind 259 00:14:13,056 --> 00:14:15,856 Speaker 1: of grabbing hold of you and saying, you remember last time? 260 00:14:16,296 --> 00:14:21,306 Speaker 1: Remember what you did? That's not how it works. 261 00:14:21,846 --> 00:14:22,966 Speaker 2: That's not the abundant life. 262 00:14:24,626 --> 00:14:29,396 Speaker 1: No. Sometimes we do it to ourselves. Yeah. But God 263 00:14:29,416 --> 00:14:32,436 Speaker 1: doesn't do that to us. And that's kind of a 264 00:14:32,516 --> 00:14:35,516 Speaker 1: parenting template for a lot of things with kids of 265 00:14:35,576 --> 00:14:40,196 Speaker 1: all ages. I remember when I was a teenager, I 266 00:14:40,236 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 1: wanted a car. My dad said, you could have a 267 00:14:42,036 --> 00:14:43,636 Speaker 1: car as long as you can figure out how to 268 00:14:43,676 --> 00:14:48,216 Speaker 1: pay for it. And so I saw a car and 269 00:14:48,236 --> 00:14:51,956 Speaker 1: it had a faded for sale sign. And, you know, 270 00:14:52,076 --> 00:14:54,276 Speaker 1: there's no wisdom in buying a car with a faded 271 00:14:54,336 --> 00:14:55,036 Speaker 1: for sale sign. 272 00:14:55,796 --> 00:14:58,556 Speaker 2: Except that the owner is so desperate that the money 273 00:14:58,596 --> 00:14:59,876 Speaker 2: you give might work. 274 00:15:00,376 --> 00:15:04,746 Speaker 1: It was an old Camaro and I was 16. OK, so, yeah, 275 00:15:04,796 --> 00:15:07,506 Speaker 1: I had to have that car. And so then I 276 00:15:07,546 --> 00:15:09,946 Speaker 1: had to make a purchase for it because there were 277 00:15:09,966 --> 00:15:11,466 Speaker 1: a lot of things were wrong with it, had a 278 00:15:11,486 --> 00:15:14,006 Speaker 1: lot of mechanical problems. And so I thought, of course, 279 00:15:14,066 --> 00:15:15,766 Speaker 1: a stereo would be the best option. 280 00:15:17,856 --> 00:15:19,676 Speaker 2: Cause that's really going to help that engine go. 281 00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:21,936 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. You know, that, that's what you, that's the 282 00:15:21,976 --> 00:15:24,456 Speaker 1: first thing. Okay. You got to do that. And my mother, 283 00:15:24,516 --> 00:15:26,636 Speaker 1: I remember she's so gracious. She said, Oh, I'm not 284 00:15:26,696 --> 00:15:29,786 Speaker 1: sure I'd do that. Cause you know, I've seen other 285 00:15:29,816 --> 00:15:33,046 Speaker 1: people and that's, that's, you know, they've done those things before. 286 00:15:33,066 --> 00:15:34,906 Speaker 1: It didn't work out so well. Does that sound like 287 00:15:34,926 --> 00:15:35,746 Speaker 1: scripture by the way? 288 00:15:35,766 --> 00:15:36,606 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 289 00:15:37,766 --> 00:15:40,246 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm not sure I'd do that. This is what 290 00:15:40,326 --> 00:15:43,306 Speaker 1: happened when they complained to the desert, you know, and 291 00:15:43,346 --> 00:15:51,016 Speaker 1: made the cow. It's like, okay. So anyway, so she 292 00:15:51,056 --> 00:15:55,116 Speaker 1: said that. And guess what I did? Just like God's 293 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:57,616 Speaker 1: people have done for so many times. Like, oh yeah, 294 00:15:57,676 --> 00:15:59,716 Speaker 1: thank you for sharing that information. I'm going to go 295 00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:05,616 Speaker 1: and do my own thing. And it broke down. That's grace. 296 00:16:07,216 --> 00:16:10,846 Speaker 1: Think about it. Could it possibly be that trials are 297 00:16:10,866 --> 00:16:15,206 Speaker 1: a form of grace? Because, you know, he can take 298 00:16:15,246 --> 00:16:19,966 Speaker 1: those and he can, you know, walk us through those 299 00:16:20,066 --> 00:16:23,376 Speaker 1: things and ultimately bring about great blessings. 300 00:16:26,456 --> 00:16:29,396 Speaker 2: I just read today in my utmost for his highest 301 00:16:29,456 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 2: about the clouds of life. When you go through that 302 00:16:31,736 --> 00:16:35,816 Speaker 2: cloud many times, we think it's to learn something. And 303 00:16:35,886 --> 00:16:39,666 Speaker 2: his point was that maybe God wants you to unlearn something. 304 00:16:39,686 --> 00:16:42,746 Speaker 2: And I loved that thing that like in that grace, 305 00:16:42,826 --> 00:16:47,186 Speaker 2: it's like, oh, I need to unlearn that I know 306 00:16:47,226 --> 00:16:49,906 Speaker 2: what's best. It's like, well, that's a really good lesson 307 00:16:49,926 --> 00:16:52,666 Speaker 2: to unlearn that I should probably take input from other 308 00:16:52,706 --> 00:16:55,686 Speaker 2: people and unlearn this I know everything attitude. 309 00:16:56,726 --> 00:16:59,146 Speaker 1: Something I think we really need to address, though, is 310 00:16:59,206 --> 00:17:01,806 Speaker 1: that I kept thinking about as I wrote the book 311 00:17:01,866 --> 00:17:04,566 Speaker 1: about what I call the parenting prosperity gospel. 312 00:17:06,006 --> 00:17:08,526 Speaker 2: Tell us, what is this gospel? 313 00:17:08,586 --> 00:17:10,226 Speaker 1: I don't know if any other people call it that, 314 00:17:10,286 --> 00:17:13,996 Speaker 1: but it's basically the idea that if you just do 315 00:17:14,036 --> 00:17:17,095 Speaker 1: the right things, if you do love and logic or 316 00:17:17,176 --> 00:17:19,996 Speaker 1: you do any other approach correctly, then your kids are 317 00:17:20,016 --> 00:17:25,605 Speaker 1: going to turn out great. Which is absolutely false. Sometimes 318 00:17:25,646 --> 00:17:29,126 Speaker 1: they do. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes we do all, you know, 319 00:17:29,285 --> 00:17:31,426 Speaker 1: I've known parents that did a really lousy job and 320 00:17:31,446 --> 00:17:34,246 Speaker 1: their kids turned out great. It's mind boggling. I mean, 321 00:17:34,285 --> 00:17:38,755 Speaker 1: it really is. But when we start thinking that the 322 00:17:38,796 --> 00:17:42,376 Speaker 1: results are all tied to our performance, then we get 323 00:17:42,436 --> 00:17:46,815 Speaker 1: locked up. We get scared. We get shameful. And I 324 00:17:46,856 --> 00:17:50,045 Speaker 1: don't want any of you, listeners, I don't want you 325 00:17:50,106 --> 00:17:51,666 Speaker 1: living in that. That's right. 326 00:17:52,426 --> 00:17:57,125 Speaker 2: It's like having you're the neighbor to us right now saying, 327 00:17:57,186 --> 00:18:00,826 Speaker 2: don't get locked up. Be loving. Be strong. 328 00:18:02,106 --> 00:18:08,796 Speaker 1: Yeah. And know that we can't control it. We cannot 329 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:12,515 Speaker 1: control everything. And there are times when things just really 330 00:18:12,576 --> 00:18:17,755 Speaker 1: do go south. They don't go well. And we don't know. Like, Jobe, 331 00:18:17,936 --> 00:18:18,755 Speaker 1: we don't know. 332 00:18:18,775 --> 00:18:18,855 Speaker 2: Yeah. 333 00:18:20,446 --> 00:18:23,246 Speaker 1: And, you know, at the end of Job, God doesn't 334 00:18:23,285 --> 00:18:26,955 Speaker 1: give him a detailed description about why things went the 335 00:18:26,995 --> 00:18:30,955 Speaker 1: way they did. He just says, I'm God and you're not, essentially. Right. 336 00:18:31,535 --> 00:18:33,275 Speaker 1: So trust me. Right. 337 00:18:33,475 --> 00:18:34,596 Speaker 2: I created all this stuff. 338 00:18:34,896 --> 00:18:37,496 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 339 00:18:37,975 --> 00:18:40,455 Speaker 2: You have it's what we've been talking about. But in 340 00:18:40,495 --> 00:18:44,026 Speaker 2: the book, you have this trust cycle, you know, that 341 00:18:44,406 --> 00:18:46,525 Speaker 2: we want our children to learn how to trust God. 342 00:18:47,386 --> 00:18:50,836 Speaker 2: But if we are always rescuing our children, if we 343 00:18:50,896 --> 00:18:54,236 Speaker 2: are keeping our children from experiencing any kind of problem 344 00:18:54,296 --> 00:18:58,315 Speaker 2: because we're just being the snowplow parent, the helicopter power parent, 345 00:18:58,356 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 2: the lawnmower parent, whatever you want to call it, that's 346 00:19:00,096 --> 00:19:02,985 Speaker 2: what we're doing and we're fixing it. Then they never 347 00:19:03,106 --> 00:19:05,745 Speaker 2: enter this trust cycle of you talking about, you know, 348 00:19:05,785 --> 00:19:08,306 Speaker 2: just think of a circle. The kid has a problem. 349 00:19:09,186 --> 00:19:14,005 Speaker 2: He cries out to God. His spiritual strength grows. God 350 00:19:14,066 --> 00:19:17,785 Speaker 2: provides and now his faith is going around and it's 351 00:19:17,926 --> 00:19:21,936 Speaker 2: growing and it's growing. When are times that you can 352 00:19:21,975 --> 00:19:24,296 Speaker 2: think of when you allowed your children that you could 353 00:19:24,336 --> 00:19:26,776 Speaker 2: say like, OK, I'm just going to step back and 354 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:29,215 Speaker 2: let's let God grow your faith through this? 355 00:19:30,096 --> 00:19:32,025 Speaker 1: Well, I gave a little kid example. Let's give a 356 00:19:32,046 --> 00:19:37,576 Speaker 1: big kid example. College, you know. And one of them 357 00:19:37,616 --> 00:19:40,916 Speaker 1: just was in this incredibly difficult course of study and 358 00:19:40,955 --> 00:19:44,215 Speaker 1: incredibly difficult course. And just, you know, how am I 359 00:19:44,255 --> 00:19:46,595 Speaker 1: going to I'm not going to make it through this class. 360 00:19:46,616 --> 00:19:50,335 Speaker 1: And it didn't look good. And, you know, just and, 361 00:19:50,596 --> 00:19:54,026 Speaker 1: you know, we have all these thoughts as parents. OK, well, yeah, well, 362 00:19:54,426 --> 00:19:56,506 Speaker 1: I can't I have some frequent flyer miles. I can 363 00:19:56,546 --> 00:19:58,525 Speaker 1: get over there to that other city and meet with 364 00:19:58,566 --> 00:20:02,916 Speaker 1: that professor. Right. Which parents do. Okay. I'm not condoning 365 00:20:02,955 --> 00:20:05,446 Speaker 1: that behavior. Right. Don't do it, parent. 366 00:20:05,566 --> 00:20:06,586 Speaker 2: Yes. 367 00:20:06,725 --> 00:20:09,275 Speaker 1: Or they go and they stay with a kid. or 368 00:20:09,376 --> 00:20:12,815 Speaker 1: they just find some way to, or they tell them 369 00:20:12,856 --> 00:20:14,196 Speaker 1: exactly what to do. 370 00:20:14,215 --> 00:20:14,295 Speaker 2: Yeah. 371 00:20:15,076 --> 00:20:16,985 Speaker 1: So I want to give you five steps, parents, and 372 00:20:17,025 --> 00:20:19,166 Speaker 1: you can use this with practically all age kids. The 373 00:20:19,205 --> 00:20:22,785 Speaker 1: first step is you empathize. You empathize with the kid. 374 00:20:22,806 --> 00:20:27,096 Speaker 1: You know, we don't want to be cold. So, yeah, 375 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:30,995 Speaker 1: that's got to be so hard. You know, that's tough. OK, 376 00:20:31,616 --> 00:20:33,755 Speaker 1: the second step is we ask, what do you think 377 00:20:33,796 --> 00:20:37,055 Speaker 1: you're going to do? Which a lot of times they 378 00:20:37,076 --> 00:20:39,005 Speaker 1: don't like to hear, because what we're really doing is 379 00:20:39,025 --> 00:20:43,265 Speaker 1: saying this is something you need to resolve. And then 380 00:20:43,366 --> 00:20:46,525 Speaker 1: or they'll say, I don't know. Third step was, would 381 00:20:46,566 --> 00:20:51,106 Speaker 1: you like to hear some ideas? Okay. And then the 382 00:20:51,146 --> 00:20:54,066 Speaker 1: fourth step is we give some ideas, just two or three, 383 00:20:54,205 --> 00:20:56,566 Speaker 1: and then we ask, how will that work for you? Well, 384 00:20:56,606 --> 00:21:00,136 Speaker 1: some people decide that they're going to meet with a 385 00:21:00,176 --> 00:21:03,196 Speaker 1: professor and see if there's some extra credit they can do, 386 00:21:03,316 --> 00:21:05,816 Speaker 1: you know, or some extra things. Well, that won't work. 387 00:21:06,056 --> 00:21:08,535 Speaker 1: I mean, he just won't. And that's kind of the 388 00:21:08,576 --> 00:21:12,025 Speaker 1: response you'll get sometimes. And that's when you say could be. 389 00:21:12,946 --> 00:21:17,265 Speaker 1: And you don't push it on the kid. Mm-hmm. You know, 390 00:21:17,285 --> 00:21:21,045 Speaker 1: other kids decide that they're going to maybe find some 391 00:21:21,086 --> 00:21:24,266 Speaker 1: other students that have some ideas about how to grasp 392 00:21:24,285 --> 00:21:27,596 Speaker 1: the material better. And how would that work? Well, I 393 00:21:27,616 --> 00:21:30,676 Speaker 1: don't know if anybody will help. That's really hard. I 394 00:21:30,715 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 1: love you. But, you know, if any kid can get 395 00:21:35,755 --> 00:21:40,386 Speaker 1: through this, you can. And you know why? Because you 396 00:21:40,406 --> 00:21:42,166 Speaker 1: have the Lord on your side and you have a 397 00:21:42,225 --> 00:21:42,825 Speaker 1: great mind. 398 00:21:42,846 --> 00:21:42,926 Speaker 2: Yeah. 399 00:21:45,296 --> 00:21:49,416 Speaker 1: And I'm sorry you're going through this. So the last 400 00:21:49,455 --> 00:21:55,095 Speaker 1: step is you allow them to have that problem without resolution. Yeah. Oh, 401 00:21:55,816 --> 00:21:58,095 Speaker 1: how ungratifying is that in the short term? 402 00:21:59,715 --> 00:22:00,616 Speaker 2: But the long term. 403 00:22:01,235 --> 00:22:05,856 Speaker 1: Yeah. And again, that's part of, you know, that's the 404 00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:09,196 Speaker 1: pattern we see in Scripture where people go up against 405 00:22:09,296 --> 00:22:12,715 Speaker 1: huge problems and And there doesn't look like there's a 406 00:22:12,755 --> 00:22:16,696 Speaker 1: way out. Maybe they have some guidance from somebody, some help, 407 00:22:16,955 --> 00:22:22,995 Speaker 1: but it's not a clean and easy resolution. And sometimes 408 00:22:23,156 --> 00:22:26,105 Speaker 1: in that particular situation, a student might figure out how 409 00:22:26,245 --> 00:22:29,066 Speaker 1: to muster the strength to figure out how to get 410 00:22:29,086 --> 00:22:32,926 Speaker 1: through the class and do well or pass. Other times, 411 00:22:33,666 --> 00:22:35,596 Speaker 1: it might not go well and they have to retake 412 00:22:35,636 --> 00:22:40,086 Speaker 1: the class. Other times... They do something different with their 413 00:22:40,126 --> 00:22:41,186 Speaker 1: life other than college. 414 00:22:43,005 --> 00:22:44,245 Speaker 2: And all of those things are fine. 415 00:22:45,146 --> 00:22:48,556 Speaker 1: Yeah. Who's in control? I mean, really, you know, and 416 00:22:48,596 --> 00:22:50,636 Speaker 1: that's a hard thing to hard. It's an easy thing 417 00:22:50,656 --> 00:22:52,505 Speaker 1: to say, but it's a hard thing to live. Yeah. 418 00:22:52,525 --> 00:22:56,106 Speaker 2: Yeah. I feel like it depends on the temperament. Many 419 00:22:56,146 --> 00:22:58,386 Speaker 2: times it's the mom that wants to open her mouth. 420 00:22:58,446 --> 00:23:01,386 Speaker 2: But I know, you know, for in our family, my husband, James, 421 00:23:01,406 --> 00:23:03,526 Speaker 2: he will definitely open his mouth. So it's something he's 422 00:23:03,566 --> 00:23:04,125 Speaker 2: working on. 423 00:23:04,546 --> 00:23:04,736 Speaker 1: Right. 424 00:23:04,796 --> 00:23:07,636 Speaker 2: As the kids are older that I'm going to wait. 425 00:23:07,676 --> 00:23:09,676 Speaker 2: You know, we've got a college graduate and a college 426 00:23:09,715 --> 00:23:12,136 Speaker 2: senior that it's I will wait to be asked and 427 00:23:12,176 --> 00:23:13,975 Speaker 2: then I will give my opinion. 428 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:19,976 Speaker 1: Such a great piece of advice. Wait to be asked. Yes. Yes. Yeah. 429 00:23:20,015 --> 00:23:21,656 Speaker 2: But if you have a two-year-old, you don't have to 430 00:23:21,676 --> 00:23:25,995 Speaker 2: wait to be asked. You tell them what to do. Yeah. 431 00:23:26,096 --> 00:23:27,916 Speaker 1: And let's be clear. There are times where we just 432 00:23:27,936 --> 00:23:31,426 Speaker 1: step in because the stakes are too high or occasionally 433 00:23:31,446 --> 00:23:33,126 Speaker 1: you just decide, I got to resolve this. 434 00:23:33,926 --> 00:23:34,106 Speaker 2: Yeah. 435 00:23:34,465 --> 00:23:37,205 Speaker 1: Yeah. Because it's not a formula. It's not a rigid, 436 00:23:37,586 --> 00:23:39,045 Speaker 1: legalistic formula. 437 00:23:39,066 --> 00:23:39,286 Speaker 2: Yes. 438 00:23:39,826 --> 00:23:40,085 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 439 00:23:40,616 --> 00:23:43,216 Speaker 2: Give us the elevator pitch of love and logic so 440 00:23:43,235 --> 00:23:45,115 Speaker 2: we understand the core tenets of it. 441 00:23:45,676 --> 00:23:47,755 Speaker 1: Oh, love and logic is we love our kids enough 442 00:23:47,796 --> 00:23:51,136 Speaker 1: to set firm limits in loving ways. We love them 443 00:23:51,205 --> 00:23:54,505 Speaker 1: enough to not argue with them about those limits or 444 00:23:54,586 --> 00:23:59,145 Speaker 1: repeat ourselves over and over again. So number one, we 445 00:23:59,186 --> 00:24:03,366 Speaker 1: set limits. We do it with love and firmness with 446 00:24:03,406 --> 00:24:08,335 Speaker 1: very few words. And then number two, we allow empathy 447 00:24:08,356 --> 00:24:13,025 Speaker 1: and consequences to do the teaching. That's the simplest version. 448 00:24:13,406 --> 00:24:13,986 Speaker 1: It's gold. 449 00:24:14,785 --> 00:24:17,526 Speaker 2: I mean, if you, as we listen, if we just 450 00:24:17,546 --> 00:24:19,166 Speaker 2: go away and go, you know what? I'm going to say, 451 00:24:19,245 --> 00:24:22,066 Speaker 2: come to dinner. I'm not going to say, you guys, 452 00:24:22,086 --> 00:24:23,686 Speaker 2: you know, I've told you so many times to come 453 00:24:23,725 --> 00:24:25,426 Speaker 2: to dinner and why don't you come to dinner and wait? 454 00:24:25,465 --> 00:24:28,066 Speaker 2: You know, it's like if we just even just left 455 00:24:28,326 --> 00:24:30,606 Speaker 2: using fewer words, that'd be a huge win for. 456 00:24:30,495 --> 00:24:34,896 Speaker 1: A lot of us. Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, uh, and, 457 00:24:35,035 --> 00:24:37,116 Speaker 1: and when you give a lot of reminders and warnings, 458 00:24:37,156 --> 00:24:39,576 Speaker 1: your kids will always learn to need them. Yeah. 459 00:24:39,596 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 2: Yeah. How do you wean yourself off from that if 460 00:24:43,215 --> 00:24:45,036 Speaker 2: you find yourself that that's something you do? 461 00:24:45,676 --> 00:24:52,016 Speaker 1: Pray for mistakes. Pray they blow it. Practice. I hope 462 00:24:52,056 --> 00:24:56,566 Speaker 1: my kid doesn't come to dinner tonight. Because if he's hungry, 463 00:24:56,586 --> 00:24:59,646 Speaker 1: that's going to be a great motivator for him to 464 00:24:59,705 --> 00:25:01,606 Speaker 1: listen more carefully when he hears my voice. 465 00:25:01,626 --> 00:25:05,356 Speaker 2: Yeah. A lot of it, too, is that parent realizing 466 00:25:05,376 --> 00:25:08,955 Speaker 2: I am the leader here, not my child. You know 467 00:25:08,975 --> 00:25:11,576 Speaker 2: that I'm the one setting the limits, not my child 468 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:14,796 Speaker 2: is the one setting the limits on me as a parent. 469 00:25:14,856 --> 00:25:16,755 Speaker 2: Talk about that a second, because we kind of have 470 00:25:16,796 --> 00:25:19,985 Speaker 2: that backward. It's the child now. That gives the parent 471 00:25:20,025 --> 00:25:22,106 Speaker 2: limit like, oh, no, we can't watch that because I 472 00:25:22,126 --> 00:25:24,826 Speaker 2: want to watch this. Oh, no, we can't eat that 473 00:25:24,886 --> 00:25:27,045 Speaker 2: food because the kid says I want to eat what 474 00:25:27,066 --> 00:25:27,745 Speaker 2: I want to eat. 475 00:25:27,826 --> 00:25:30,386 Speaker 1: You know, we search for idols. I mean, the truth 476 00:25:30,426 --> 00:25:32,586 Speaker 1: of it is people do. They look for idols all 477 00:25:32,626 --> 00:25:35,766 Speaker 1: over the place. You know, if anybody who disagrees with that, 478 00:25:35,785 --> 00:25:40,365 Speaker 1: I never do that. Well, yeah, right. But yeah, it's 479 00:25:40,426 --> 00:25:46,265 Speaker 1: very it's very tempting. And we much of modern psychology 480 00:25:46,285 --> 00:25:49,125 Speaker 1: and I'm a psychologist have to say this. Yeah, as 481 00:25:49,146 --> 00:25:53,906 Speaker 1: as encouraged idolizing children. It's like, let's put the kid 482 00:25:53,965 --> 00:25:56,906 Speaker 1: up on the pedestal and let's worship them and make 483 00:25:56,965 --> 00:25:59,745 Speaker 1: sure they're happy all the time, because if they're not happy, 484 00:25:59,806 --> 00:26:03,126 Speaker 1: we're not going to get what we need and want. Right. 485 00:26:03,166 --> 00:26:07,456 Speaker 1: So worship, worship, worship. See, and here's interesting piece out 486 00:26:07,495 --> 00:26:12,416 Speaker 1: of scripture. Those who worship them become like them. So 487 00:26:12,775 --> 00:26:16,515 Speaker 1: when we worship idols, we become just like idols. We 488 00:26:16,556 --> 00:26:19,366 Speaker 1: have mouths but can't speak, eyes but can't see, ears 489 00:26:19,406 --> 00:26:22,146 Speaker 1: but can't hear. We're just made out of wood. We're lifeless. 490 00:26:23,745 --> 00:26:27,256 Speaker 2: It's really good. And you could take it like you 491 00:26:27,366 --> 00:26:29,495 Speaker 2: abdicate your role as a parent. You become like the 492 00:26:29,535 --> 00:26:30,656 Speaker 2: child when you. 493 00:26:30,616 --> 00:26:31,176 Speaker 1: Idolize the child. 494 00:26:31,275 --> 00:26:31,555 Speaker 2: Exactly. 495 00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:32,416 Speaker 1: You become childish. 496 00:26:32,436 --> 00:26:33,376 Speaker 2: We will be like them. 497 00:26:33,396 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 1: Yep. Absolutely. 498 00:26:34,576 --> 00:26:36,715 Speaker 2: And not in a good way. Childlike is good. 499 00:26:36,755 --> 00:26:38,036 Speaker 1: Childish, not good. 500 00:26:38,056 --> 00:26:38,616 Speaker 2: Right. 501 00:26:38,715 --> 00:26:41,725 Speaker 1: Yeah. Good. Well put. Well put. You have a great 502 00:26:41,765 --> 00:26:42,666 Speaker 1: way of putting things. 503 00:26:43,146 --> 00:26:46,986 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you. The book is so good. And there 504 00:26:47,025 --> 00:26:49,446 Speaker 2: are 10 questions in it. So go get this book, 505 00:26:49,485 --> 00:26:51,326 Speaker 2: Raising Spiritually Strong Kids, because you get a lot of things. 506 00:26:51,806 --> 00:26:53,965 Speaker 2: But you have 10 questions and I'm just going to 507 00:26:54,005 --> 00:26:56,476 Speaker 2: say a few of them to help us build that 508 00:26:56,656 --> 00:27:00,176 Speaker 2: foundation of love and respect with our kids. You say 509 00:27:00,235 --> 00:27:02,676 Speaker 2: at least twice a day, do I take the initiative 510 00:27:02,715 --> 00:27:05,855 Speaker 2: to connect with my children through eye contact, smiles, and 511 00:27:05,896 --> 00:27:08,856 Speaker 2: loving touch? Do I make it clear I miss them 512 00:27:08,995 --> 00:27:12,026 Speaker 2: when we're apart? Do I sit with them at least 513 00:27:12,186 --> 00:27:15,785 Speaker 2: one meal every day? Do I spend more time helping 514 00:27:15,826 --> 00:27:19,186 Speaker 2: them discover their God-given strengths than pointing out what they 515 00:27:19,225 --> 00:27:22,125 Speaker 2: do wrong? And I love these questions. You have them 516 00:27:22,146 --> 00:27:25,465 Speaker 2: throughout the book to just help us assess to ourselves, 517 00:27:26,066 --> 00:27:28,776 Speaker 2: you know, how am I doing this? Talk a little 518 00:27:28,806 --> 00:27:32,416 Speaker 2: bit about if we've been disconnected to our kids. You know, yes, 519 00:27:32,455 --> 00:27:34,776 Speaker 2: we're connected in the sense that we drive them around. 520 00:27:35,495 --> 00:27:38,355 Speaker 2: We sit in the same house together, but we are 521 00:27:38,416 --> 00:27:42,135 Speaker 2: on technology. We are distracted. We are constantly interrupted. We 522 00:27:42,176 --> 00:27:45,056 Speaker 2: are in conflict, whatever. Just give us that little bit 523 00:27:45,096 --> 00:27:48,676 Speaker 2: more of how can we start that more loving presence 524 00:27:48,735 --> 00:27:49,196 Speaker 2: in the house? 525 00:27:50,156 --> 00:27:54,816 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, don't live in shame. You say 526 00:27:54,836 --> 00:27:59,426 Speaker 1: to yourself, this is why we need Jesus. I mean, 527 00:27:59,465 --> 00:28:02,725 Speaker 1: we all sin and fall short of the glory of God, right? 528 00:28:03,366 --> 00:28:07,626 Speaker 1: And we all need him. Because if we get caught 529 00:28:07,666 --> 00:28:11,545 Speaker 1: up in the shame and guilt, then we just repeat 530 00:28:11,975 --> 00:28:17,806 Speaker 1: the same mistakes over and over and over again. But 531 00:28:19,275 --> 00:28:24,276 Speaker 1: what helps me is I try to bask in the 532 00:28:24,715 --> 00:28:33,775 Speaker 1: glory and justice and love of God. So he's glory. 533 00:28:33,796 --> 00:28:35,815 Speaker 1: He's holy. 534 00:28:35,836 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 2: Yeah. 535 00:28:36,775 --> 00:28:43,936 Speaker 1: He's just. And therefore... Yikes. You know, I'm like Isaiah, 536 00:28:44,056 --> 00:28:47,456 Speaker 1: you know, and I'm like, I just saw God and 537 00:28:47,556 --> 00:28:52,796 Speaker 1: I'm so flawed. I'm so I'm so despicable. Right. So 538 00:28:52,896 --> 00:28:57,316 Speaker 1: it's important to grasp the bad news first. And then 539 00:28:57,336 --> 00:29:00,666 Speaker 1: the love that he gave his son to die on 540 00:29:00,706 --> 00:29:03,946 Speaker 1: the cross for me, for my sins. That's how much 541 00:29:03,986 --> 00:29:08,306 Speaker 1: he loves me. Because the holiness and the just nature, 542 00:29:08,426 --> 00:29:13,846 Speaker 1: character of God magnifies the grace of his gift of 543 00:29:13,886 --> 00:29:18,575 Speaker 1: his son. Yeah. And so I dwell on that. And 544 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:24,256 Speaker 1: I try to absorb that. Because when I'm absorbing that, 545 00:29:24,876 --> 00:29:27,416 Speaker 1: and then I go off and try to love my 546 00:29:27,476 --> 00:29:30,176 Speaker 1: kids better, I'm doing it for the right reason. 547 00:29:30,656 --> 00:29:30,876 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. 548 00:29:31,736 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 1: Does that make any sense? 549 00:29:32,876 --> 00:29:37,036 Speaker 2: It makes a lot of sense. It is reorienting yourself 550 00:29:37,176 --> 00:29:41,756 Speaker 2: to wonder, to realizing, wow, the gospel. And then you 551 00:29:41,816 --> 00:29:45,446 Speaker 2: can now lavish hope, grace to your kids because you're 552 00:29:45,526 --> 00:29:48,966 Speaker 2: kind of coming from that glow of what God's done 553 00:29:48,986 --> 00:29:49,345 Speaker 2: for me. 554 00:29:49,906 --> 00:29:53,866 Speaker 1: Yeah. And the whole book, I said to the publishers, Tyndale, 555 00:29:53,946 --> 00:29:56,026 Speaker 1: great group of people, by the way, I said, this 556 00:29:56,106 --> 00:29:58,746 Speaker 1: is not going to be a self-help book. This is 557 00:29:58,786 --> 00:30:00,876 Speaker 1: not a self-help book. It's got a lot of practical 558 00:30:00,916 --> 00:30:04,095 Speaker 1: skills in it, but we can't help ourselves. Yeah. To 559 00:30:04,136 --> 00:30:10,126 Speaker 1: be honest. Yes. We can't. Right. Yeah. But when we're empowered... 560 00:30:10,446 --> 00:30:14,825 Speaker 1: by just the magnification of the gospel in our minds 561 00:30:14,846 --> 00:30:19,085 Speaker 1: when we really experience that, then we're in the place 562 00:30:19,166 --> 00:30:21,585 Speaker 1: to do a lot of things more effectively for the 563 00:30:21,626 --> 00:30:24,636 Speaker 1: right reason. Yeah. Okay. Dr. 564 00:30:24,656 --> 00:30:26,276 Speaker 2: Fay, we could talk for a long time because you 565 00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:28,956 Speaker 2: have a lot of good stories and principles that we 566 00:30:28,996 --> 00:30:30,816 Speaker 2: need to understand. As we close, I want to ask 567 00:30:30,856 --> 00:30:33,866 Speaker 2: this question. If one of you in the marriage, let's 568 00:30:33,906 --> 00:30:36,666 Speaker 2: say you are married and for you single parents out there, 569 00:30:36,706 --> 00:30:39,026 Speaker 2: thank you so much for listening because it's been perfect. 570 00:30:39,166 --> 00:30:39,946 Speaker 1: Yes. 571 00:30:40,286 --> 00:30:43,396 Speaker 2: For if you're married and your spouse does not agree 572 00:30:43,416 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 2: with you. So you're like, oh, this love and logic thing. 573 00:30:45,516 --> 00:30:50,396 Speaker 2: This is great. Useful were fewer words, consequences, empathy. I'm in. 574 00:30:50,436 --> 00:30:53,096 Speaker 2: But the other one is like, I'm going to give 575 00:30:53,116 --> 00:30:56,446 Speaker 2: them the Werther's candy. I don't care. I'm just going 576 00:30:56,466 --> 00:30:58,826 Speaker 2: to always buy it for them. You know, how do 577 00:30:58,886 --> 00:31:02,606 Speaker 2: those two people start? coming closer together as they parent. 578 00:31:03,146 --> 00:31:06,756 Speaker 1: Oh, they love and respect each other. I mean, that's 579 00:31:06,796 --> 00:31:08,996 Speaker 1: the first thing. And that tends to be the first 580 00:31:09,016 --> 00:31:12,516 Speaker 1: thing that's gone when we have a disagreement, right? But 581 00:31:12,536 --> 00:31:15,066 Speaker 1: God says, it's like, you know, love your wife like 582 00:31:15,086 --> 00:31:19,186 Speaker 1: Christ loved the church and respect your husband, right? And 583 00:31:19,206 --> 00:31:23,666 Speaker 1: that's not conditional, right? It's not like if he if he. 584 00:31:23,606 --> 00:31:26,386 Speaker 2: Parents right, then he agrees with you. 585 00:31:26,406 --> 00:31:29,406 Speaker 1: No, no. And to me, that's, you know, the hardest 586 00:31:29,466 --> 00:31:33,456 Speaker 1: but the most powerful aspect of an effective marriage is just, you. 587 00:31:33,366 --> 00:31:36,976 Speaker 2: Know, like we disagree. Yeah, I love you. I respect you. 588 00:31:37,296 --> 00:31:40,256 Speaker 1: So that's that's that's the starting place. The second place 589 00:31:40,376 --> 00:31:44,376 Speaker 1: is remembering that scripture is not a manual for straightening 590 00:31:44,416 --> 00:31:45,115 Speaker 1: other people out. 591 00:31:45,136 --> 00:31:47,256 Speaker 2: Hmm. You mean it's not? 592 00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:52,756 Speaker 1: I'm so disappointed. I keep looking. I keep looking, but 593 00:31:53,476 --> 00:31:57,776 Speaker 1: it all points back in the mirror. The law is 594 00:31:58,096 --> 00:32:01,096 Speaker 1: a mirror. We look at it. It's not a microscope 595 00:32:01,136 --> 00:32:05,536 Speaker 1: to look at other people. It's looking at ourselves. And 596 00:32:05,686 --> 00:32:09,146 Speaker 1: it's it's my firm opinion that when we speak God's 597 00:32:09,266 --> 00:32:15,306 Speaker 1: truth in love and when we are asking God to 598 00:32:15,466 --> 00:32:21,676 Speaker 1: change us. And we keep asking, we keep repenting, we 599 00:32:21,716 --> 00:32:24,536 Speaker 1: keep going back and asking again and again, again, we 600 00:32:24,556 --> 00:32:27,956 Speaker 1: keep knocking on that door. That is our most powerful 601 00:32:28,036 --> 00:32:30,756 Speaker 1: way of influence of influencing other people. 602 00:32:32,486 --> 00:32:32,706 Speaker 2: Yeah. 603 00:32:33,286 --> 00:32:37,166 Speaker 1: So from time to time when we do say, you know, honey, 604 00:32:38,626 --> 00:32:41,846 Speaker 1: and this is without the kids present, please, I'm very 605 00:32:41,906 --> 00:32:46,146 Speaker 1: concerned about you just rescuing the kids after I've set 606 00:32:46,206 --> 00:32:49,016 Speaker 1: a limit with them. I'm concerned for them and I'm 607 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:54,046 Speaker 1: concerned for you. And then you. Clamp your teeth of 608 00:32:54,086 --> 00:32:58,166 Speaker 1: your tongue and maybe just briefly open it again and say, 609 00:32:58,186 --> 00:33:02,026 Speaker 1: I love you. And then you get out of the room. 610 00:33:02,046 --> 00:33:06,326 Speaker 1: And you let God do the work on that. Because 611 00:33:06,366 --> 00:33:09,256 Speaker 1: if you keep harping and you keep pressuring and trying 612 00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:10,636 Speaker 1: to control, things go south. 613 00:33:11,216 --> 00:33:14,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so good. Wow. This is, this is just 614 00:33:14,496 --> 00:33:17,836 Speaker 2: scratched the surface of raising spiritually strong kids. So go 615 00:33:17,876 --> 00:33:20,855 Speaker 2: get this book, Dr. Faye Charles, let us know. How 616 00:33:20,896 --> 00:33:22,676 Speaker 2: do we get in touch with you? Find out more 617 00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:24,396 Speaker 2: about what you do and your book. 618 00:33:25,106 --> 00:33:27,766 Speaker 1: OK, well, the book can be found, as they say, 619 00:33:27,786 --> 00:33:34,296 Speaker 1: wherever books are sold. OK, right. OK. And to learn 620 00:33:34,326 --> 00:33:37,116 Speaker 1: about Love & Logic, the best place to go is 621 00:33:37,236 --> 00:33:42,156 Speaker 1: to loveandlogic.com. And I actually have real people answer the 622 00:33:42,216 --> 00:33:45,256 Speaker 1: phone and they'll answer your questions if you want to 623 00:33:45,296 --> 00:33:47,036 Speaker 1: talk to a real person. 624 00:33:47,636 --> 00:33:49,696 Speaker 2: I love it. That's awesome. And we'll have that link 625 00:33:49,716 --> 00:33:52,716 Speaker 2: in the show notes. Thank you so much for being on, Dr. Faye. 626 00:33:52,816 --> 00:33:57,916 Speaker 2: So appreciate it. I hope you've enjoyed today's conversation. I'd 627 00:33:58,056 --> 00:34:01,706 Speaker 2: love to keep in touch beyond this podcast. Click subscribe 628 00:34:01,826 --> 00:34:03,885 Speaker 2: in the show notes and I will give you my 629 00:34:03,986 --> 00:34:07,446 Speaker 2: latest email to keep up on what's happening with technology 630 00:34:07,606 --> 00:34:08,206 Speaker 2: and kids. 631 00:34:08,786 --> 00:34:09,446 Speaker 1: And maybe you. 632 00:34:09,366 --> 00:34:12,185 Speaker 2: Like reading or listening to books. I have a lot 633 00:34:12,226 --> 00:34:15,346 Speaker 2: of books. You could start with the big three, Making 634 00:34:15,406 --> 00:34:20,346 Speaker 2: Marriage Easier, Parents Rising or Screen Kids. A big thank 635 00:34:20,406 --> 00:34:22,986 Speaker 2: you to the team at Life Audio for their partnership 636 00:34:23,026 --> 00:34:27,206 Speaker 2: with the Happy Home Podcast. Check out lifeaudio.com for dozens 637 00:34:27,246 --> 00:34:32,676 Speaker 2: of other faith-related podcasts about prayer, Bible study, and more. Remember, 638 00:34:32,996 --> 00:34:35,316 Speaker 2: you don't have to come from a happy home to 639 00:34:35,376 --> 00:34:38,496 Speaker 2: create one. You too can have a happy home.