1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 2: This is Donna Jones and you are listening to That's 3 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've ever been 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow, that 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: was just what I needed, you know how life giving 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: that can be. 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: Well, that's what this podcast is all about. 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: We're women who want to know, love, and follow God 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 2: in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just how to 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: do it. So each week we'll talk about what following 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 2: God looks like in the midst of daily demands and 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what we need, 13 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: it's actually exactly what we need. 14 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: Hey, hey, my friend, and welcome to the podcast. 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: Hey, I have a fun but also kind of deep 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: episode for you. Let me tell you what I mean 17 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: by that. My guest today is Dana Dimitri. Now I 18 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 2: have known Dana for a long time. We first met 19 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: on the road. I was part of a large national 20 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: speaking tour and Danna was in a musical group that 21 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 2: also traveled with us throughout the country, and I just 22 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: fell in love with Dana. In addition to her amazing vocals, 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 2: she's also a speaker. She's a wellness educator and for 24 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 2: decades she's encouraged women with her faith and with her 25 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 2: many nonfiction books. But I'm having Dana on today to 26 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: talk about her debut novel. Now, let me tell you 27 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: a little bit why I love this. First of all, 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 2: you may love reading, you may not love reading. I 29 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 2: happen to love reading of all genres. But this is 30 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 2: what's really cool about Dana, and I think you're going 31 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: to resonate with this. Dana several years ago was on 32 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: the podcast and she had a milestone birthday, a big birthday, 33 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: and we talked about the things that she has learned 34 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: over the years. I think it was like a top 35 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: ten or top twelve things that she's learned. It was 36 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: one of the highest ranking podcast episodes that I had done. 37 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 2: People just really resonated with hearing someone that is, you 38 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: know how some seasons under the belt saying hey, this 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 2: is what I've learned. This is what I've learned both 40 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 2: from what I did well what I wish i'd done differently. 41 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a really powerful episode. Today though, as 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: I mentioned, we're going to talk about Dana's debut novel, 43 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 2: and here's what's so cool about this, And I really 44 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: hope you take this to heart that no matter how 45 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 2: old you are, whether you are really young or whether 46 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: you feel like, oh you know, am I too old? 47 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: Kind of pursued dreams. Dana reminds us that it is 48 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: either never too early and never too late. So no 49 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: matter where you fall on that spectrum, if you are breathing, 50 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: God has a purpose for your life. And I love 51 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: that about Dana. Here she is, she's in her seventies 52 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: now and she's writing. 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: For her first novel. 54 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 2: I mean, how cool is that. If she can do it, 55 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 2: you can still be pursuing your dreams too, And I 56 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: think that's a message that we all need to hear. 57 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 2: So with that introduction, help me welcome my friend Dana Dimitri. 58 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: Well, Dana, welcome to the podcast. Thank you, Donna, it's 59 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: good to be back. Yes, this is round two for you. 60 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 2: You had such a popular episode the last time. It 61 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 2: was like ten things that You've learned over the course 62 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: of your life. I had so many people comment about 63 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 2: that particular episode. Just how was it just resonated with 64 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 2: so many people because you are just so full of wisdom. 65 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: So now I'm seventy four years old. I think that 66 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: was probably when I was seventy two, you start to 67 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: look back and go things I wish i'd known, like 68 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: can like note to self and one. I have many 69 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: life models, but one is just don't waste anything. God 70 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: doesn't want to waste anything. So if we can share 71 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: from our own, you know, not just our mistakes, but 72 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: the positive things. I mean, as women, we need each 73 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: other to spur each other on and give encouragement. And 74 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: I feel like the way we stay relevant as we 75 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: age is to just keep pouring out. Just keep pouring out, okay, 76 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: which is exactly what you do. 77 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 2: And I love that you get such hope and proposon 78 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: meaning to every single thing about your life. And you 79 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 2: have written this brand new book. It's a work of fiction, 80 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: which is. 81 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: A new thing for you. You've never written a novel. Yes, 82 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: I've written a lot of nonfiction and health and wellness 83 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: and living in balance and that kind of thing, but 84 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: I had never finished a fiction project. Don't all authors 85 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: kind of want to be a novelist. I love Chris 86 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: story stories, huge, Jesus Us stories constantly. He was the 87 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: master storyteller. And when we even when we write our 88 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: non fiction, we share stories and that's what brings the 89 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 1: reader in and resonates and it's what they rem member. 90 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: So I love story, but I never knew I would 91 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: actually complete a fiction novel. But when God gets his 92 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: hand on something, as you know, hid on your heart 93 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: and you surrender it, it just happens. And so it 94 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: was really a fun It was a labor of love, 95 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 1: but it was actually one of the most fun things 96 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: I've done. Fun is an interesting word to based on 97 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:22,919 Speaker 1: the subject we can talk about a little bit. But 98 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: it was because, as you know, and as I've shared 99 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: with you, this is a work of fiction. It is 100 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: not a memoir. However, it is inspired by some scenarios 101 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: in my own life in my sixties that motivated me 102 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: to write it. And so that's what I did. And 103 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: I'm not a marriage expert. I can't write a how 104 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 1: to save your marriage book or what to do if 105 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: you're betrayed, but I can write an honest story. And 106 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: this story is fictional. It's not exactly my story, but 107 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: I really wanted to explore all the emotions that women 108 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: go through when they're betrayed. 109 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the name of your book is called Beyond Betrayal, 110 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 2: and the subtitle A story of heartbreak, healing and redeeming love, 111 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: and you write very much from a I mean, it's 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 2: Christian fiction, but it's very real. As you said, it's 113 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: based loosely on some events that you had in your sixties. 114 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 2: So walk us through a little bit of your story, Dana. 115 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: I've been married. 116 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: Over fifty years of my life, but not to the 117 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: same man. So I was buried at twenty one to 118 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: a man nine years my senior, and I was married 119 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: for eleven years and had two beautiful daughters in that marriage. 120 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 1: And so I actually this is a true confession. I've 121 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: shared it elsewhere, but I actually was unfaithful in that 122 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: first marriage. I was, and I became a Christian during 123 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: that marriage and pursued a divorce in that marriage as 124 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 1: a Christian woman. So I'm not coming at this as 125 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: some saint. After my divorce, I was thirty two when 126 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: I met my current husband of forty one years, Lou. 127 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: I was a believer. In fact, I had been sold 128 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: out to Jesus during my first marriage, but as life 129 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: happened and I became more and more discontent, kind of 130 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: shoved Jesus into closet. So that's just a little bit 131 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: of my backstory. Way back when I met my current 132 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: husband Lou at thirty two. I was not walking close 133 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: to God. I had faith, I believed. I think I 134 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: was saved, but boy would I have been embarrassed if 135 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: God took me home then? Is like I wasn't living 136 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: my faith. But when I fell in love with Lou, 137 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: I fell hard. And I had my two little girls, 138 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: and he accepted that I was a young mom with 139 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: two girls. I think they were seven and four at 140 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: the time, and we were just madly in love and 141 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: we were best friends for years, years, years years, and 142 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: I felt like we've always gotten along well. He respects me, 143 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: He's always thought I was pretty, you know, all the 144 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: good things that go with a good relationship. And we 145 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: had our ups and downs. Don't get me wrong. But 146 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: I was on a trip by myself to Italy, so 147 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: there's some similarities in the story, a little bit different. 148 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: But I came back from this trip of being gone 149 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: two weeks and found out that my current husband, Lou, 150 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: after thirty four years of marriage, was having an affair 151 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: and he was so in love. He was ready to 152 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: leave me. He was ready to give me our house, 153 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and he basically said, you can have everything, and I 154 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: was literally just completely shocked, shocked and hurt and devastated, 155 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: and so that was such a hard experience, especially when 156 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: you were so blindsided. That was, of course just the 157 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 1: beginning of that journey, which really took a couple years 158 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: to resolve. And I won't well, I'll share I am 159 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: still married forty one years this summer. We're going to 160 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: Italy in a couple months, to the area where a 161 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: lot of this book takes place in Pulia. But that 162 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: whole journey of learning to not just forget what is 163 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: forgiven and what is trust and what's the difference between 164 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: forgiveness and trust, and when do you actually feel secure again? 165 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: And how long do you stay if your partner is 166 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: not willing just to confess, repent and turn and walk 167 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: away from that other relationship. There's so many emotions and 168 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: so many things to do with our identity. So that 169 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: was my experience that I learned so many things. I actually, 170 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: in the midst of all this up people, I ended 171 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: up being diagnosed with stage one breast cancer. It was 172 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: very manageable, but it was also very scary because I 173 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: still didn't know am I going to be alone? I 174 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: was sixty seven at the time. Donna and I've always 175 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: felt like I had a strong identity in Christ and 176 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: I was a woman who didn't need a man. I 177 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: wanted my relationship with my husband and I valued it, 178 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: but I never felt like this desperate need, even though 179 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: he was the primary provider in our family. And so 180 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: those are just things that no woman ever wants to experience, 181 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: and many many have. And the other side of it's true, 182 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: too many women are unfaithful to their husband, and husbands 183 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: are experiencing betrayal. So this book is not just about 184 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 1: poor women out there that are being betrayed. It's about 185 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: the condition of the human heart. I mean, I wanted 186 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: to write a Christian fiction romance on this subject that 187 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: was raw and real and honest. And the characters in it, 188 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: Caden Grant, they've been married thirty four years. A little 189 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: bit different story, potentially different outcome, you will have to 190 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: read it to find out. But I mostly wanted to 191 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: explore the emotions their faith, his faith, her faith, both 192 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: of their site brokenness, both of their weaknesses and strengths. 193 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: And so far, what I'm hearing from readers is that 194 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: it is very honest and raw, and they're telling me. 195 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: People are telling me they can't put it down. I'm 196 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: thankful for that because it looks like it's a really 197 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: big book. It's actually four hundred pages, but I have 198 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: really big type and a lot of white space because 199 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: that's how I write. So don't let that scare you. 200 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: But I always like novels that can dig in because 201 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: I want to know the care and all that. So 202 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:05,439 Speaker 1: that was my story, and I was just so overwhelmed 203 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: by the love of God in this journey, my journey, 204 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: how he never wastes any of our tears, how he 205 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: can restore what's broken, but sometimes he does it in 206 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: a way we don't expect. Some marriages are reconciled, some 207 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: are not. One of the things I've known and believed 208 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: for years is, you know, we're called to forgive everything, 209 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: not just betrayal. We're called to forgive each other. But 210 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: when we're dealing with a relationship that is broken through 211 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: any form of betrayal, even though we forgive, forgiveness is 212 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: not a guarantee for reconciliation. It takes two people to reconcile. 213 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: And so that's part of the journey of anyone who's 214 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: going through a fractured relationship is we have to do 215 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: our part what God calls us to do, but He 216 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: never takes away the free will of either person, and 217 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: so we have to trust. And yet our prayers do matter, 218 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: but our prayers don't always they don't change the free 219 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: will of the other party. And so understanding some of 220 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: these spiritual principles, walking with God through it, sensing his love, 221 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: his presence, his power, his provision is very profound. And 222 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: I think all of us go through very difficult circumstances. 223 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: If we live long enough, we've gone through the valleys, right, 224 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: And so I think there are a lot of things 225 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: to learn as we read each other's stories, whether they're 226 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: fictional or real, of what God is showing us. And 227 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 1: I think Kate was very vulnerable, my protagonist in this story. 228 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: She did a lot of journaling, and so we get 229 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: to hear It's not a preachy book, it's very very 230 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: lot of faith because two Christians that have this fractured marriage. 231 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: But we get to hear a lot of her heart 232 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: through her journaling and through her conversations with three wonderful 233 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: friends of a lifetime that are joining her. They're in 234 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: Italy to experience a month long vacation that they'd been 235 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: planning for years and it gets disrupted by this phone call. 236 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: But love the night phone call. 237 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 2: Okay, So this is so interesting, Dana, because you know, 238 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: you're talking about betrayal and it's specifically in marriage, and 239 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: which is the deefst betrayal, right, because the two become one. 240 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,839 Speaker 2: So you are betraying the one person in the world 241 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 2: you have promised never to betray, and yet there is 242 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: this deep betrayal. So gosh, it impacts your identity. It's rejection, 243 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: it's pain, it's all of those things. But all of 244 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: us have experienced some sort of betraying. Maybe it's a friend, 245 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: maybe it's a family member, maybe it's a parent or 246 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: a sibling, or an employer, a boss or something that 247 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: we just thought, I can't even wrap my mind around this, 248 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: you know, and it's like, how do you navigate that? 249 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: And that's what I love is that through this fiction 250 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: you kind of walk through the process the emotions that 251 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,199 Speaker 2: and I love the journaling. 252 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: You know that you put her journal and then her 253 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: friends because those are two really important things and kind 254 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: of walking through this. I want to ask you some 255 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: things about because I'm thinking some of our friends may 256 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: be thinking, Okay, yeah, I can relate to that, but 257 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: I don't know how to process this and you've been 258 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: through it and you wrote about it in fiction. So 259 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break and want to 260 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: come back. I want to ask you some more specific 261 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: questions about this whole topic of betrayal. Okay, so Dana, 262 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: your book Beyond Betrayal, we're just talking about how everybody 263 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: experiences that on some level, right. But one of the 264 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 1: things I think is really interesting that you wrote about 265 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: somebody who was experiencing betrayal in her sixties, and then 266 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: identity has a lot to do with this. So for a. 267 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: Woman really or a man already, like you're in your sixties, 268 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 2: you're changing. It's like your identity is changing as it 269 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: is right because you're going from hey, I'm on the 270 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: upward climb to like, okay, now what's next? And then 271 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: you have betrayal on top of that. So you've got 272 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: identity crisis layered upon identity crisis. 273 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: So walk us through some. 274 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 2: Of the things that maybe were helpful for you that 275 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: you included in the book. That if somebody's going through 276 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 2: this right now, it will be a lifeline for them. 277 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: As you know, Donna, our identity in Christ is everything, 278 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: but we allow the world to let it shake us, 279 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: shake our identity. So I remember when I was going 280 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: through counseling after I found out about Liz a Fair 281 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 1: and I thought he was repenting, that wasn't sure where 282 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: we were at. And the counselor said to me, Dana, 283 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: you're worshiping Lou and your marriage more than Jesus right now. 284 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: And I was like, what are you saying now, you know? 285 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: And he said, you're making it above God right now. 286 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: And he goes, I'm not saying it's not important. I'm 287 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: just saying you're basing your happiness all on the outcome 288 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: of what's going to happen with your marriage. And I 289 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: need you to just ask God to help you put 290 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: Lou under Him and just trust, trust, trust Jesus. And 291 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm like, what does that look like? And I have 292 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: a beautiful friend, Diane Lowry, who's a Bible teacher. She's 293 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: written a bunch of books on she did book on 294 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: Philippians and so far, she's just a good, good friend. 295 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: And I lived in San Diego at the time, and 296 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: I would call her and she'd pray and talk to me, 297 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: but I'd go, okay, I have biblical grounds to leave. 298 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm leaving because he's still seeing her, and she'd go, 299 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: you're okay, You've got Jesus. And then a couple of 300 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: weeks later, no, we're reconciling. Is I think he's on track. 301 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: We're going to work on a marriage. She goes, that's great, 302 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: you got Jesus. And I think the whole thing was 303 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: no matter what's happening, how our life's being shaken. It 304 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: could be a terminal diagnosis, it could be a marriage 305 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: that is truly just fractured so badly, and it looks 306 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 1: like there's little hope. No matter what. What does it 307 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: look like to just go? But all I really need 308 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: is Jesus. In the practical way, that's a hard thing 309 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: to do. We can say it the Sunday School answer. 310 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: What I learned, So to answer your question from a 311 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: practical is I had to keep asking the Lord, help me, 312 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: just need you, Lord, help me see my life as 313 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: complete and content and purposeful. No matter what happens. I 314 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: don't have control over anything but how I'm responding to 315 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 1: life and to lean into you and to trust you. 316 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: And it wasn't that, it wasn't painful, But he really 317 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: did teach me how to put a lot of the 318 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: pain into a little lock box for a while. In 319 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: other words, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna sit down 320 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: with my journal for a couple Back then it was 321 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 1: probably a couple hours at a time, but for a time, 322 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: I'm going to express everything. I'm going to cry out 323 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: to God and take a deep breath, pull out my 324 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: big girl panties, and find some joy in life and 325 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: find out how I can go out and make an impact, 326 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 1: whether it's in my adult children's life, my grandchildren, and 327 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: doing something meaningful, like you know, writing or doing a 328 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: blog or whatever, just doing something that wasn't just about 329 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: me and my pain and my current circumstance. And that 330 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: is very therapeutic and it's very purposeful and it does 331 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: make a difference. But if we wallow in it so much, 332 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: it's not to say it's not painful. And you know, 333 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: I'm not saying the first week or two where you're 334 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: just like in shock, there's a time for grief. There's 335 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: a time for a lot of crying. You know, crying 336 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: is good for us. He created the tears. I do 337 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: share one scripture that comes to Kate's mind in the books. 338 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: She's thinking. When she's first hearing about her husband's betrayal, 339 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: she's crying, and the Lord reminds her of the scripture 340 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: that says he captures our tears in a little bottle. 341 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: And that's why I always say, God never wastes our tears. 342 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: And so I would say, what is the practical thing? 343 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: It is? Just lean into God, talk to him constantly, 344 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: ask him to bring you peace, ask him to help 345 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: you have the identity and security that you are okay 346 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: because you have Jesus. That is the bottom line. He 347 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: says he'll never leave her forsake us, and so we think, well, yeah, 348 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: but we get hurt, or we die, we go through spain. 349 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: He's not forsaking us, and so I think that was it. 350 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 1: But you know, Donna, being a woman of God that 351 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: has lived some decades, that we grow closest to God 352 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 1: in our pain. We just do sorry. Then it's the 353 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 1: most profound, beautiful thing that we go okay, not just 354 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: because an outcheme is good, but then God is good. 355 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: And it is hard not to let our identity get shaken, 356 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: especially in a betrayal, especially in a husband. What does 357 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: a woman think, I'm not pretty? Enough. I'm not smart enough, 358 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm not fun enough, I'm not this enough, that enough, whatever. 359 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: And in truth, sometimes some of those little things, they 360 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: might be part of your husband's or the betraying person's problem. 361 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: The world is just trying to suck us in. The 362 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 1: enemies is speaking lies that there is a spiritual battle too, 363 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 1: That's the other thing I would say. I've been through 364 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: spiritual battles for my family and different scenarios in the past. 365 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: But boy, did I know the enemy wanted to destroy 366 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: my marriage. And I will say one thing, Donna. One 367 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: of the first things I said to Lou when I 368 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: found out is I was like, I'll be darned if 369 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: on my side, I'm gonna let the enemy win this. 370 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: I said, do you really want this to be your legacy? Lou? 371 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: And you know he was blinded at the time. And 372 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: you'll see when I wrote in Beyond Betrayal, the story 373 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: of Grant, Grant Kate's husband, these are not bad men. 374 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: This is the thing you mean in a Christian marriage. 375 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: I'm not saying they're not sinful, and they're not being 376 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: sucked into all the lies and their egos and all that. 377 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: But they're not bad. We're all capable. We're all capable, 378 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: and so I think so much of this is we 379 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: have to recognize the spiritual battle. But we can't just 380 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: blame it on the enemy. We partake. God's economy is 381 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: such that the enemy, you know, Satan and his minions 382 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: can only influence us where we give a crack open 383 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: in our heart, our soul or whatever, and hard to 384 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: something's discern where those cracks are. And I know I 385 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: won't share my husband's total story, but I knew there 386 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: were some things going on just in general attitudes and 387 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: some you know, men kind of go through. I would 388 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: say this would have been a very late mid life crisis, 389 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: but they go through they want to feel more. Mainly 390 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: as we're aging, we women, you know, we're looking at 391 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: our wrinkles and we're like in the mirror doing this 392 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 1: and we're grieving our lost youth, sometimes more than we 393 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: need to. So there are all these influences going on. 394 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: But it's not just the enemy. It's like we have 395 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: to take accountability for our part, be wise that the 396 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: enemy's doing his part, but never forgetting God is ultimately 397 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: in control. We just have to surrender. And it's not 398 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: a formula. 399 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 2: What is interesting in even just going back to what 400 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: your counselor said and you, you know, leaning into Jesus, 401 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,360 Speaker 2: depending upon Jesus. The fact that she said, okay, you're 402 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 2: making lou and your mayor ridge your God basically, and gosh, 403 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 2: when we do that, people make very bad gods because 404 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: they're not always dependable or faithful, and only God is. 405 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: But Dano either way, that your marriage had panned out 406 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: because you pressed in and dependent upon the Lord. 407 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: You grew in your relationship with the Lord. 408 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 2: You became closer, you became more usable, you found purpose. 409 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,239 Speaker 2: I mean, you wrote this book as a result, like 410 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: you pressed forward, not just because you pulled yourself up 411 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: by the bootstraps and said I'm going to press forward, 412 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: but you defended upon the Lord. 413 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: And just two things come to my mind. 414 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: JP and I have these counselor friends that they're just 415 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: the best, and one of the things they always say 416 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: is when people are going through difficult times, and they've 417 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 2: said it to us. Honestly, I was thinking about the 418 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: phrase this morning. As a matter of fact. They would say, 419 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: is Jesus enough? Yes, this is all going on, is Jesus. 420 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: But they didn't say it like condescendingly or in a 421 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,160 Speaker 2: shaming way. It was like, it's just really tender. It's 422 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: Jesus enough. And then when you realize, like, okay, no matter, Jesus, 423 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 2: isn't I have Jesus. 424 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: He's right here with me. 425 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: The second thing that devtails on what you were saying 426 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 2: is I have another friend who has gone through some 427 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 2: really difficult life circumstances was she and her husband is 428 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 2: that she will regularly say God loves and she'll put 429 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: in her name, so God loves and she says it 430 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: out loud, like God loves Donna Anne Jones, God loves 431 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 2: Dana Dimitri and it just reminds her because when we 432 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,199 Speaker 2: go through things like this, especially betrayal, we don't feel loved. 433 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 2: We were trade, we weren't loved right, and it's like 434 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: what in the world, and we need to know does 435 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 2: somebody love us? And I think just I've learned from 436 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: her her saying that out loud, reminding herself of that 437 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: is really powerful and I've done it, and it's like 438 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 2: it's powerful to say it out loud. 439 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, that's the thing. Rejection is so painful 440 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: and one of the things that hit me when I 441 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: was going through it, and then I even included this 442 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: in a part of the book that you'll have to 443 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: read to find out. But I have a dear, dear 444 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: friend who is fairly recently widowed amazing beautiful marriage, I 445 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: mean a beautiful marriage, and she's a strong, strong believer 446 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 1: and she completely trusts God. But she said, I have 447 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: to wait till heaven and know why did he take 448 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: my husband when there's so many other pad marriages out there. 449 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: But what was interesting is I always thought to be 450 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 1: a widow would be the worst thing, and then when 451 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: I went through this, I was like, do you know 452 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,719 Speaker 1: what's really really horrible about a betrayal and a marriage 453 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: that doesn't reconcile is that you not only lost that marriage, 454 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: but you were rejected. When someone dies that loves you, 455 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: they haven't taken away their love. They haven't rejected you. 456 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: And so in the book, I actually brought in a character, 457 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: an Italian man, because I wanted Kate to have some 458 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: choices and this is not my story. A very kind, 459 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: godly Italian man who was a widower, and I felt 460 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: like he was helping her see both sides of loss, 461 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: and she is ultimately obviously going to have to she's 462 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,360 Speaker 1: having some feelings for him because he's such a kind, 463 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: wonderful man, but she has a biblical right to leave 464 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: her marriage. But this whole thing of being rejected, you 465 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: lose a relationship and you're rejected. So you're right, Donna, 466 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: We need to know the real source of love and 467 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: that we will never be rejected by God, and that, 468 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 1: in fact, the brokenness of the person who is betraying us, 469 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: it's not even about that. It's usually about something they need, 470 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: and shame keeps people oftentimes from reconciling. If they reconcile, 471 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: they have to admit their failure in the whole process 472 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: of confession and repentance, and especially not keeping it a 473 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: big secret is a very difficult one for the betrayer. 474 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: And I really tried in my story because it was 475 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 1: true in my personal story, but also in my fictional story, 476 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: to let the reader discover the real people grant as 477 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: this man who portrays his wife, that he is much 478 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: more than just a really bad decision at a season 479 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: of life, and some of the reasons why he may 480 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: have gone there not to excuse it, but to understand. 481 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: But by the grace of God, go I go, You go. 482 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: All of us. We are all capable of being of 483 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: the most egregious things. We really are given the right 484 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: wrong circumstances, who sometimes can do very hurtful, stupid things. 485 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: And God still loves us. That's the thing. He still 486 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: loves us when we are, you know that broken. And 487 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,360 Speaker 1: I remember having a vision in my mind when lou 488 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: asked me to forgive him more than once, and I 489 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: had this picture in my mind of Jesus hanging on 490 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: the cross and looking down at me, And as I'm 491 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: grappling with what forgiveness looks like, I felt like Jesus 492 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: was saying to me, Hey, Dana, you know that thing, 493 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: I forgive that? Oh yeah, and that other one I 494 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: forgave that. And you know what that thing you're going 495 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: to do in ten years from now You don't even know. 496 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: I've already forgiven that. And it was like, okay, so 497 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: who am I to withhold forgiveness? But then again the 498 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:32,159 Speaker 1: big question, what is forgiveness? What is forgiveness? You know, 499 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 1: it is no longer judging, no longer holding against. It 500 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that you trust in fact, it doesn't 501 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: mean you trust in a betrayal. It means that you 502 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: are letting go of the offense. You're going to release 503 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: it and trust God with it, and you're open to 504 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: a reconciled relationship, but you're not bound to it if 505 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: the person isn't trustworthy. And so I feel like that's 506 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: the part of understanding how much Jesus he forgave everything. 507 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: And yet I always remembered when I think it was 508 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: Peter went to Jesus and said, what how many times 509 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: should I forgive my friend? If he keeps sending against me? 510 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: Should I forgive them seven times? And Jesus is like, no, 511 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,239 Speaker 1: seventy times seven. So that's the part, Like, Okay, I 512 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: think the thing I learned about the forgiveness part of 513 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,439 Speaker 1: this is it's not something you do once. It's something 514 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: you choose day after day. Forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting. There's 515 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: a real tention in it because I think, as the 516 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: person who needs to forgive someone from hurting and betraying them, 517 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: you think, well, I forgave, so now I shouldn't have 518 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: these bad, these horrible emotions. No, nobody said the emotions 519 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 1: are going to go away. I remember my husband saying, 520 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: I thought you forgave me, I go I do forgive you, 521 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: but I don't trust you different. You know I cry 522 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: if we hit, would that be intimate? I thought you 523 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: forgave me. I did forgive you, but I still hurt 524 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: my emotions. My heart is not healed yet. So what 525 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: does it mean. It means I'm willing to come toward you, 526 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: and I'm willing to trust God to protect my heart. 527 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 1: And I'm willing to not hold this against you in 528 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: anger and bitterness and scorekeeping. But you have to earn 529 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: mac my trust. You have to wait on my heart 530 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: to heal, and I have to do my part, and 531 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: God will certainly do his. But you have to be 532 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: patient on your side because usually the betrayer and any 533 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: of us sin, we want to be one and done, 534 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: like confess and turn okay, done, no, And God doesn't 535 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: want us living in shame. But I remember another really 536 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: wise thing my counselor said. He said it to actually 537 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: deluis a little guilt is good for you. I don't 538 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: want to feel shame. I want you to feel guilt 539 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: because you need to see it for what it is. 540 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: You need to grief. That's why I love Psalm fifty one, 541 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: with David is crying out to God after his sin 542 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: with Bathsheba. I include that in the book too, because 543 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: it's such a powerful realization when a man finally or 544 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: anybody finally comes to seeing their sin for what it 545 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: is and to go through that grieving process. Oh my gosh. 546 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: And see I went through that with my first marriage. 547 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: Years later, as an adult Christian woman, I started to 548 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: look at it. You know, I had prayed for forgiveness 549 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: and asked my ex husband for forgiveness and all those things. 550 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: But as I started to write and share more and 551 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: more through my decades of being a speaker and writer, 552 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: I would grieve even more because not because I wasn't forgiven, 553 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: but I was like, Lord, I just don't think I 554 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: saw the gravity of how much I dishonored you and 555 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: hurt others. And that's a good thing. We're called to 556 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: weep and moan and cry over these things because they're important, 557 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: but not live in shame. 558 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, gosh, Dan, I really liked that you said that 559 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 2: to understand the gravity of our choices, our behavior upon 560 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: other people, I think that's so so good. And I 561 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: also love after I shared the counselor saying Jesus is 562 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,239 Speaker 2: enough and all that I don't want minimized because that 563 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 2: can be such a platitude. 564 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 1: And when you are betrayed emotions. 565 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 2: There's lament, there's grief, there's hurt, there's anger, there's righteous 566 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 2: anger because it's like this was not supposed to be 567 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: and this was not right. And so I don't want 568 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 2: to minimize that, because all of those emotions are human 569 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: and normal and even right, and so I don't want 570 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: to skip over that. So I really appreciate that you 571 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: were just talking about, like with Lou you had to 572 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: you forgave, but you still hurt. You forgave, but you 573 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 2: didn't trust. This is going to take me a hot second. 574 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: This is not one and done, okay, So Dana, tell 575 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 2: us where we can get a copy of your book. Well, 576 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: you can always, of course find it on Amazon, because 577 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 2: that's so many people love their Amazon Prime or whatever 578 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: free shipping. So it is in both in paperback, hard 579 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 2: copy and kindle. I'm hoping to do audible, but I'm 580 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 2: not there yet, so you can certainly do that. If 581 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: you'd like an autographed copy, you can go to my website, 582 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: which is Leanhealthyageless dot com. You can find it in 583 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: my store. You can find it. There's actually a landing 584 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 2: page with a trailer for the a little movie trailer 585 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 2: for the book. That's kind of a fun little snapshot. 586 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: Of it there. So either place is great perfect. We 587 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 1: will put all that information in the show notes. I 588 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: love it, and congratulations on your first novel. This is 589 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: the first in a series. It is. So there's three girlfriends. 590 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: These are all mature women, because it's not that the 591 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: book is exclusive to mature women. But I would say 592 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,239 Speaker 1: it's really going to resonate if you're over fifty. If 593 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: you're younger, it's still a great story. But I mentioned 594 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: this to you before we were actually recording, and that 595 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: is a really sad statistic is that gray divorces, divorces 596 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: of couples over fifty are the fastest grain divorces in America. 597 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 1: And so if you are a woman in your thirties 598 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: or forties or whatever, just to be able to, I think, 599 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: equip yourself for how can I protect my marriage, how 600 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: can I spiritually be strong? And you know, just knowledgeable 601 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: and wise in this area. I think it's a good 602 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: story for any age, but these are women that are 603 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: of a certain age sixty plus, and so I think 604 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of fun for women that are on that 605 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: side of life to have some books written about them 606 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: for them. I love it. I love it well, Dana, 607 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on the podcast, and 608 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: thank you even more for taking your story and turning 609 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: it into something that can help other people and doing 610 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 1: it in a way that is you know, it's a. 611 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 2: Novel and it's not a self help book, but it 612 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 2: is without being that way. 613 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: So thank you so much. It has been just such 614 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: a joy to have you on the podcast. Thank you, Donna, 615 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: it's been a pleasure to be here. 616 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 2: Well, wasn't it a fun episode? I hope you enjoyed it. 617 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 2: I hope it really motivated you not only to get 618 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 2: Danna's book, but also just that the Lord has something 619 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 2: in store for you. 620 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: He has a purpose for you. 621 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 2: And as I mentioned on the onset of the podcast, 622 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: it's never too early. You're never too young and you're 623 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 2: never too old. Open up your eyes and your heart 624 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 2: and your mind and ask God, what is it, Lord 625 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: that you want me to do with this one and 626 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 2: only life that I've been given. And as just a reminder, 627 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: I would love to connect with you on social media. 628 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: You'll find me at Donna A. Jones on Instagram, Donna 629 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:20,799 Speaker 1: Jones speaker. 630 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: And author on Facebook and jump over to my website 631 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 2: Donna Jones dot org. You can sign up for my newsletter, 632 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 2: find out where I'm going to be speaking this fall. 633 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,160 Speaker 1: I would love to connect with you there. 634 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 2: That's Donna Jones dot org and as always, my friend, 635 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 2: I can't wait to see you next time, for that's 636 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 2: just what I needed