1
00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000
Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

3
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360
Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

4
00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

5
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,200
Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

6
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319
Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

7
00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640
Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

8
00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,639
Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

9
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,440
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm

10
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,680
Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Amy Peeler. She is the Kenneth T.

11
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,280
Speaker 1: Wesner Chair of Biblical Studies at Wheaton College and she's

12
00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,720
Speaker 1: written a book called Ordinary Time that we're going to

13
00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,920
Speaker 1: be discussing and so Amy, welcome to the program. Thanks

14
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:47,520
Speaker 1: for being here.

15
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,760
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking

16
00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:50,800
Speaker 2: forward to our conversation.

17
00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So talk a little bit about how you

18
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,960
Speaker 1: got involved in this particular project and maybe give people

19
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,440
Speaker 1: a little bit of your background. I mean, the the

20
00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,360
Speaker 1: Westerner chair of you know, Biblical studies gives people probably

21
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,319
Speaker 1: some idea, but what are your interests, how did you

22
00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 1: come to this title?

23
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely sure, So maybe ye, I'll start with myself and

24
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,400
Speaker 2: then move to the book. So I was. I started

25
00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 2: college interested in psychology, but then pretty and about the

26
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,240
Speaker 2: middle of college, I discovered biblical studies. I had grown

27
00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:24,479
Speaker 2: up in the faith, and then I realized you can

28
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,240
Speaker 2: study the Bible like a school project. It was kind

29
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,840
Speaker 2: of amazing. I loved school, I loved God. You can

30
00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 2: put these things together. So I had excellent mentors at

31
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,240
Speaker 2: my college. I went to Oklahama Baptist University, and they

32
00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,240
Speaker 2: really ignited the fire for me to be a professor.

33
00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 2: And so about the age of twenty, I thought, that's

34
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,360
Speaker 2: what I want to do. So I pursued that path,

35
00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,560
Speaker 2: and in God's goodness, that's what I get to do.

36
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 2: I am here at Wheaton. I've been here this my

37
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,560
Speaker 2: fourteenth school year. I teach all the way from undergraduates

38
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 2: sometimes I have freshmen all the way to doctoral students,

39
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,160
Speaker 2: so I have a wide range and they're amazing people

40
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,360
Speaker 2: who come here to Wheaton. I love teaching God's word

41
00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,720
Speaker 2: and so that's the focus of what I do for

42
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,240
Speaker 2: the majority of the time. I also serve at my

43
00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,760
Speaker 2: church and I love being grounded in a local Christian community.

44
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,600
Speaker 2: So I'm kind of Bible all the time, which is

45
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,400
Speaker 2: amazing and so fun. Off Really many days I'm like,

46
00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,440
Speaker 2: this is my job. I get paid for this. This

47
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 2: is often so lots to be thankful for. So this project, then,

48
00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,880
Speaker 2: honestly is a little different. I've never done anything like this.

49
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,440
Speaker 2: So my colleague here at Wheaton, a dear friend, is

50
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,799
Speaker 2: Isa McCully. He's the editor of this series. It's the

51
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,880
Speaker 2: Fullness of Time series, and there is a little book

52
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,160
Speaker 2: on each section of the church year, and so maybe

53
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,600
Speaker 2: some of our listeners would be familiar with that, maybe

54
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,440
Speaker 2: some not. I grew up Southern Baptist. I was very

55
00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,079
Speaker 2: well rooted in scripture, but we didn't think very much

56
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,239
Speaker 2: about the different seasons of the year. That's not really

57
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,359
Speaker 2: part of that tradition. I'm now part of the Anglican

58
00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,839
Speaker 2: Communion in the Episcopal Church, and so that is absolutely

59
00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:07,600
Speaker 2: we strutured everything according to Church here. So just briefly,

60
00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:12,519
Speaker 2: then Esau had envisioned this series where scholars and pastors

61
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:18,040
Speaker 2: and priests, everybody is within the Anglican Communion writes both

62
00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,600
Speaker 2: history and exit Jesus and reflection and devotion about the

63
00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,440
Speaker 2: seasons of the church here, and my understanding is they

64
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 2: had everything set Easter and Lent and Pentecost and Epiphany,

65
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,080
Speaker 2: and then there's this big part of the year that

66
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,840
Speaker 2: is ordinary, and initially they didn't imagine they'd have a

67
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 2: volume on that because that's like the normal. But then

68
00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,760
Speaker 2: later in the imagination of the series, ESA thought, you know,

69
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,160
Speaker 2: we need something on that time of the church here,

70
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 2: and very graciously he approached me, and I was really

71
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,480
Speaker 2: excited to take it on. So yeah, it was really

72
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,080
Speaker 2: his invitation and then my decision to say, I can

73
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,760
Speaker 2: think about this huge time of the church here and

74
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,400
Speaker 2: write a beautiful little book about it. And by beautiful,

75
00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:02,839
Speaker 2: I mean like they have done an amazing job of

76
00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,240
Speaker 2: the formatting of these books. They're small and they have

77
00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 2: beautiful color. So I've never had the opportunity to write

78
00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,560
Speaker 2: something so little and so pretty. Most of my books,

79
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,520
Speaker 2: you know, I think the content is good, but they're

80
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,880
Speaker 2: not much to look at. So it was really fun.

81
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,760
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, for those who don't who aren't familiar with

82
00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,640
Speaker 1: sort of the church count I grew up Lutheran, so

83
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,680
Speaker 1: we had the church calendars, so I understand the cadence

84
00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,640
Speaker 1: of it. The idea of ordinary time is just basically,

85
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:34,840
Speaker 1: maybe I'm getting this wrong, so you can correct me,

86
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,160
Speaker 1: but it's basically the time of year where there is

87
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,240
Speaker 1: no official church holiday kind of thing going on, right,

88
00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 1: It's just we have a blank space here. That's the

89
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:45,400
Speaker 1: ordinary time.

90
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 2: No, that's precisely right. And if we learn from early Christians,

91
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,599
Speaker 2: of course they are celebrating Jesus's resurrection and they want

92
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,479
Speaker 2: time to prepare for that, and they celebrate his birth

93
00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,600
Speaker 2: and they want time to prepare for that. So really

94
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,760
Speaker 2: you have Easter season and Lent, Christmas and Advent and

95
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,080
Speaker 2: then Epiphany and Pentecost, and then ordinary time is the

96
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,000
Speaker 2: stuff that's left over. It's neither feast nor fast, it's

97
00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,600
Speaker 2: our normal life. So you've got it exactly right.

98
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,560
Speaker 1: How much time actually is that? Do you have a

99
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:17,360
Speaker 1: good sense of that?

100
00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,479
Speaker 2: So there are two different sections of ordinary time. We

101
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 2: actually just entered one, and so after you have Advent

102
00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,440
Speaker 2: in the twelve days of Christmas, then you have a

103
00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,479
Speaker 2: brief season of Epiphany where we remember the wise men

104
00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,440
Speaker 2: coming to visit Jesus and the light going out to

105
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,479
Speaker 2: the world, and then we enter into ordinary time. So

106
00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,400
Speaker 2: we're in it right now, and depending on where Easter falls.

107
00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,720
Speaker 2: It's really just a handful of weeks. So at the

108
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,160
Speaker 2: end of Epiphany until ash Wednesday, the beginning of Lent,

109
00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 2: we're an ordinary time. That's a small section. The much

110
00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,640
Speaker 2: larger section, which can be up to twenty nine weeks,

111
00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,640
Speaker 2: occurs right after Pentecost all the way to Christ the King,

112
00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:00,000
Speaker 2: the beginning of Advent, so that stretches over the summer

113
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,080
Speaker 2: months and into the fall. It's the widest longest period

114
00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:04,599
Speaker 2: of the church.

115
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,720
Speaker 1: Here and talk a little bit about how ordinary time

116
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,440
Speaker 1: normally fits or is treated. So is there a is

117
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:17,560
Speaker 1: there any sense where this space is viewed as the

118
00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,559
Speaker 1: bridge between the you know, the season that came before

119
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: it and the season came after it, or is it

120
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,680
Speaker 1: sort of really okay, we're done with this season now,

121
00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,880
Speaker 1: we're going to move to this season, but we're not

122
00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,159
Speaker 1: going to use this ordinary time to sort of build

123
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 1: that bridge.

124
00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,320
Speaker 2: Oh, what a fascinating question. In the research that I've done,

125
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 2: I haven't seen bridge language and I wonder simply because

126
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,240
Speaker 2: it's so long, that'd be a really long year long bridge. Yeah, exactly.

127
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 2: And so the ways that it's been spoken about in

128
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 2: church history and different traditions is that we do kind

129
00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,960
Speaker 2: of have a bookend with Pentecost, and then it's a

130
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,080
Speaker 2: long time before we have the new year of the

131
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,599
Speaker 2: Christian calendar, which is Advent. So this period of time

132
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,839
Speaker 2: is thought about as normal life, as a time for growth,

133
00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,800
Speaker 2: as a time for reflecting on the life of Jesus,

134
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,280
Speaker 2: as reflecting on God's work with the people of Israel.

135
00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 2: So I've never really heard bridge language. I just think

136
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,160
Speaker 2: that's simply link would prevent that. But it is the

137
00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 2: time of like when we are living out our growth

138
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:26,280
Speaker 2: as Pentecost people, as Easter people, as resurrection people, but

139
00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,840
Speaker 2: we do so for a long time, patterning ourselves off

140
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,280
Speaker 2: of the life of Jesus and of the saints.

141
00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's associated with color usually, right, Yeah, So

142
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: maybe talk a little bit about the color and how

143
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,640
Speaker 1: that ties in symbolically with what ordinary time is.

144
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,520
Speaker 2: Excellent, excellent. Yeah. I love the liturgical tradition, and I

145
00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 2: recognize I'm a convert, so I'm very zealous about it,

146
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:55,760
Speaker 2: but I love that it has a visual aspect. So,

147
00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 2: and when you go into the different seasons, one thing

148
00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:03,680
Speaker 2: you might recognizes the color changes. Advent is often blue,

149
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,960
Speaker 2: and Lent is often purple, and so you have a

150
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:13,600
Speaker 2: change for ordinary time. It's green, and that is very mundane.

151
00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,920
Speaker 2: As early Christians and kind of throughout time they're thinking, well,

152
00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:21,080
Speaker 2: what colors do we use well? In that period of time,

153
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,000
Speaker 2: especially in the northern hemisphere, you have lots of plants,

154
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,760
Speaker 2: lots of grass. You can make a lot of green

155
00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,600
Speaker 2: dye for the banners and the vestments and the stoles

156
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,800
Speaker 2: and things that are decorating the church. And I think

157
00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,080
Speaker 2: it works symbolically as that period of time we're seeing,

158
00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,720
Speaker 2: you know, the harvest rising, you know, the plants green

159
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 2: that leaves a green outside we are. That makes us

160
00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,600
Speaker 2: think as humans about growing things and how our own

161
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:51,960
Speaker 2: spiritual life can grow in this time.

162
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 1: And so the green is both I like the word

163
00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,240
Speaker 1: you use mundane in the sense that we've entered into

164
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,600
Speaker 1: something that's not particularly special in a way that we're

165
00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,719
Speaker 1: applying some sort of big symbolic logic to it, like

166
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,280
Speaker 1: an advent or a lent, and so it becomes a

167
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,360
Speaker 1: little bit more earthy and just every day.

168
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:12,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

169
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,840
Speaker 1: But then the green also denotes this idea that even

170
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,840
Speaker 1: though you're in a mundane space, you shouldn't be exactly

171
00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,760
Speaker 1: you should be actively moving forward that's.

172
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,120
Speaker 2: So well said. This is not a season of the

173
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,120
Speaker 2: year that's like a timeout, right, Like we do these

174
00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,200
Speaker 2: big things, and you know, sometimes churches even can get

175
00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,480
Speaker 2: into the mindset of kind of thinking that way. I've

176
00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,400
Speaker 2: heard conversations of like, oh, we don't have much programming

177
00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,480
Speaker 2: in the summer. We kind of take it off, and

178
00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,920
Speaker 2: you know, I recognize that people travel and it's a

179
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,880
Speaker 2: little bit maybe of more relaxed, but I think that's

180
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,520
Speaker 2: a wrong thing. We shouldn't just say, you know, we

181
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,280
Speaker 2: only do things with God when they're big, like when

182
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,439
Speaker 2: we're fasting or when we're feasting. Oh, that's the beauty

183
00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,240
Speaker 2: of the incarnation that God is with us in the

184
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 2: every day, and I think ordinary time really helps us

185
00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,200
Speaker 2: remember that truth because most of our lives are pretty normal,

186
00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 2: Like we don't have a party every day, We're not

187
00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,240
Speaker 2: crying every day. A lot of days are I do

188
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 2: what I do. I interact with the people I love,

189
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 2: and that's my life. So we've got to think about

190
00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,559
Speaker 2: how God is active in that and respond to God actively.

191
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you kind of went from you went

192
00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,600
Speaker 1: from a more open tradition without these seasons and then

193
00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,920
Speaker 1: over into a you know, Anglican Church, where these are

194
00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,280
Speaker 1: really very much a part of the warp and woof

195
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,240
Speaker 1: of life. I did the opposite thing. Oh, and so

196
00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,280
Speaker 1: I've kind of seen both, like, yeah, but one thing

197
00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 1: I noticed, and as I was reading Ordinary Time, I'm

198
00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,200
Speaker 1: kind of thinking through it's this space you're talking about,

199
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,160
Speaker 1: that apathy that can develop. We're going to take the

200
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 1: summer off. That kind of idea. It almost feels like

201
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 1: that carries into some of the I would call them,

202
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,880
Speaker 1: you know, non liturgical calendar traditions. That's really a mouthful, right,

203
00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:05,240
Speaker 1: but because you don't have any sort of punctuated moments

204
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,000
Speaker 1: other than maybe Christmas in Easter, Yeah, that's a whole

205
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:10,960
Speaker 1: lot of time. I mean, the same problem you run

206
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,160
Speaker 1: into with the twenty nine years growth. Now you have

207
00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,320
Speaker 1: that for almost fifty weeks, you know, or something like that.

208
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,000
Speaker 1: Within the overall church calendar. Did you notice anything as

209
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 1: you moved? I mean, I'm sure you have an appreciation

210
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,320
Speaker 1: for the calendars in the different seasons, but did you

211
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:27,839
Speaker 1: notice as you reflect back on your time sort of

212
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,240
Speaker 1: in the Baptist tradition, do you notice any of that?

213
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a wonderful question, you know, in my transition

214
00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,480
Speaker 2: from that more free church to a liturgical church. I

215
00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:42,839
Speaker 2: spent time with Presbyterians and Wesleyans. I'm really quite a

216
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:46,120
Speaker 2: mutt and have learned, you know, have just been blessed

217
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,920
Speaker 2: by so many traditions. And what I something I was

218
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,320
Speaker 2: exposed to in those periods of time was the were

219
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,560
Speaker 2: the writings of Augustine, and the writings kind of translated

220
00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 2: through James Smith from Calvin who talks about like, if

221
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,760
Speaker 2: our lives aren't attenuated and focused on God, we're going

222
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,319
Speaker 2: to run by kind of our culture's calendar. And our

223
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,959
Speaker 2: culture's calendar is very repetitive. It's almost if we look

224
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,839
Speaker 2: at it from a materialistic standpoint, it's very consumerist. What

225
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,320
Speaker 2: does the market want us to buy next? And we

226
00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,000
Speaker 2: can kind of be captured by that. One thing I

227
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 2: appreciated is that in the liturgical calendar there is a

228
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 2: recognition that time is God's right. Time is not just

229
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 2: what I have to make of it, or it's not

230
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,000
Speaker 2: what the market tells me I need to be purchasing.

231
00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,760
Speaker 2: There's this rhythm that is both repetitive, right. It is

232
00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 2: a cycle, and yet we practice that cycle because we

233
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,280
Speaker 2: know we're headed somewhere. We are practicing for the coming Kingdom,

234
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,199
Speaker 2: and I found that very helpful. If I can give

235
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,719
Speaker 2: you just a short example, Christmas, I was the kind

236
00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,559
Speaker 2: of kid maybe all kids are like this. I loved

237
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 2: it the best thing ever, Like I would start listening

238
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,079
Speaker 2: to Christmas music September. First I was getting ready, and

239
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,280
Speaker 2: then man, that day after Christmas, I was just crushed.

240
00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,920
Speaker 2: It was all over. Something I appreciated with the liturgical

241
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,839
Speaker 2: tradition is that Advent helps you get ready, but you're

242
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,440
Speaker 2: not quite there yet, and then you have these twelve

243
00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,120
Speaker 2: days of Christmas, not just all focused in one place.

244
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,120
Speaker 2: I guess writ large, I would say the liturgical calendar

245
00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,120
Speaker 2: has helped me to be more patient, actually, because I

246
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,360
Speaker 2: don't have to kind of capture all of the goodness

247
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,720
Speaker 2: right now. It's spread out over time. And I know

248
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:40,240
Speaker 2: now that I've been in this tradition probably for about

249
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,000
Speaker 2: ten fifteen years, I also know that, hey, I can

250
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 2: enjoy this season, but it's okay if I don't get

251
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,080
Speaker 2: to do everything I want in the season, because it

252
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,520
Speaker 2: will come again. It will come again, and I'm able

253
00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:58,360
Speaker 2: to rest more in the rhythms that early Christians have recognized.

254
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it just strikes me.

255
00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,080
Speaker 1: You know, the Lutheran Church had that cadence and it

256
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 1: was helpful, and I can remember the changing of the

257
00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 1: colors and different things like that, and so I can

258
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,319
Speaker 1: still walk into my old Lutheran church and kind of

259
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:17,200
Speaker 1: understand where we're at. But I also think that you know,

260
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,200
Speaker 1: when we're we sort of have this no time right

261
00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,480
Speaker 1: there isn't a cadence is just onto the next sermon

262
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 1: series or onto the next you know, event that we're

263
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 1: going to have as a church, and it can be

264
00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 1: a little bit. I think that's part of the challenge

265
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:36,920
Speaker 1: of we find with getting too programmatic, is that we

266
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:42,480
Speaker 1: almost need these events to punctuate something within our cadence. Yes,

267
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,320
Speaker 1: you know, because we're trying to get we're trying to

268
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,600
Speaker 1: move people somewhere, and so what do you do, Well,

269
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,240
Speaker 1: you have an event. Let's have an event. And it's like, well,

270
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 1: if we had a calendar, we wouldn't need an event necessarily,

271
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,480
Speaker 1: like we'd have this stuff. So yeah, I was just

272
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,800
Speaker 1: sort of fascinated. I wanted to kind of hear your

273
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,840
Speaker 1: thought on that aspect of it, because you wrote on

274
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,840
Speaker 1: the time in between this time that is fairly unstructured

275
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 1: and a lot of your insights, I felt like really

276
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,800
Speaker 1: conveyed that sense of when there is no structure, when

277
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:18,800
Speaker 1: there isn't a calendar, we are tempted to do different things.

278
00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:20,880
Speaker 1: It's not like it has to be that, but we're

279
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,720
Speaker 1: certainly not guided and directed in the same way we

280
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 1: are at lent or advent or what have you.

281
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's so well. Humans Humans like a rhythm,

282
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,240
Speaker 2: and we'll create it if we don't have it. But

283
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 2: I would to say as well, I'm thinking my younger brother,

284
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 2: I am really close. He's remained in the free Church

285
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,960
Speaker 2: tradition and doesn't like the structure of the liturgic culturch.

286
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,600
Speaker 2: It's not for everyone, that's fine, and we have wondered,

287
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,680
Speaker 2: my husband and I, if our children that we've raised

288
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,200
Speaker 2: them here, they might make the same transition you do,

289
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 2: that they need something fresh. So I don't like to

290
00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:57,200
Speaker 2: claim that how we do it is the only or

291
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,280
Speaker 2: the best way, but I have found it meaningful, and

292
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:02,520
Speaker 2: I do think that is something very natural about wanting

293
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 2: a structure given to us.

294
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it has to go all

295
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,800
Speaker 1: the way back. I can do agree. I wouldn't advocate necessarily. Hey,

296
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 1: everybody should go back to this, but I do think

297
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 1: that the problem of cadence is a real one.

298
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,080
Speaker 2: Yes, that's well said.

299
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about you know, you

300
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: in the inordinary time. It's such an interesting approach within

301
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,600
Speaker 1: the liturgical challendar because it's a blank space. So what

302
00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 1: did you find as far as historically and you know,

303
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:41,520
Speaker 1: from sort of the traditions of the church that help

304
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:46,680
Speaker 1: guide people through ordinary time? Are there those resources or

305
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,160
Speaker 1: are we thinking more just sort of generically, Hey, spiritual growth?

306
00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:53,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, what a great, what a great question. There was

307
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,880
Speaker 2: some structure, and they came primarily through the readings. Christian

308
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,520
Speaker 2: worship has the beauty of lots of different things, these

309
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,439
Speaker 2: colors and song and smells and prayers, but we're rooted

310
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,840
Speaker 2: in listening to what God says to us. And that's

311
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,800
Speaker 2: true across all traditions, and so early on there was

312
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 2: a movement that we're thinking about this growth in particular way.

313
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 2: So we think about the grace of God, we think

314
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,679
Speaker 2: about our response, we think about what God empowers us

315
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 2: to do, not just for our own lives, but as

316
00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 2: we face outward. I learned from some those who study

317
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,639
Speaker 2: the early Church, and they said there was kind of

318
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 2: a pretty tight fourfold rhythm of how we move through growth.

319
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,720
Speaker 2: In more recent developments, those have become a little bit

320
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,040
Speaker 2: they're not as clear cut, I guess, I would say,

321
00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:48,480
Speaker 2: but those remembrances are still present in the readings gratitude, right,

322
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,080
Speaker 2: that's coming right after Pentecost. God was kind enough to

323
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,199
Speaker 2: reach down and change us. And so you have a

324
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,400
Speaker 2: period of reflection and then you move into I need

325
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,600
Speaker 2: to continue to think about I fall short, and I

326
00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 2: need to think about the community outside of the church.

327
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,240
Speaker 2: So those are still preserved, but not quite as clean.

328
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 2: The other thing that this season offers us, and I

329
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,199
Speaker 2: ended up choosing several chapters to reflect on this in

330
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 2: the book, is that I believe it gives us a

331
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:16,959
Speaker 2: chance to reflect on the kind of things that we

332
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,360
Speaker 2: do all the time. So we have Trinity Sunday. Right.

333
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 2: In some sense, you would say, well, we don't need

334
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 2: a Sunday because we talk about the Trinity all of

335
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,960
Speaker 2: the time, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And yet isn't

336
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,960
Speaker 2: it the case that the things that we do all

337
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,560
Speaker 2: of the time, we actually need to focus on them

338
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,359
Speaker 2: because they become so rogue they're just part of what

339
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,720
Speaker 2: we do. We reflect on the Lord's Supper, and I recognize,

340
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,879
Speaker 2: you know, different trictionans to have different ways and different

341
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 2: rhythms of doing that, but that's a regular part of

342
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,919
Speaker 2: Christian worship. And so we have a day within ordinary

343
00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,679
Speaker 2: time to say, let's stop and think about what it

344
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,560
Speaker 2: means to have this meal. So I love that that

345
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,840
Speaker 2: we both have this kind of dynamism of growth that

346
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:02,159
Speaker 2: leads us to that last Sunday where we proclaim Christ

347
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,479
Speaker 2: as King. But we also have opportunity to reflect on

348
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,160
Speaker 2: the normal practices that we do all of the time.

349
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you really do a nice job I think

350
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 1: of highlighting the challenge of ordinary practice, like where do

351
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,120
Speaker 1: we find God in doing the dishes? I don't think

352
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 1: that's one of your examples.

353
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,639
Speaker 2: But well I drew that from my friend Tis Harrison

354
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,240
Speaker 2: Warren and her Liturgary of the Ordinary. I think there's

355
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,479
Speaker 2: been an explosion more recently in asking this kind of question,

356
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,679
Speaker 2: like where's that not just on the mountaintop, but in

357
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 2: the normal stuff I do. She's awesome about that.

358
00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, it's sort of a difficult question to go with.

359
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,240
Speaker 1: But I think what I appreciated about what your book

360
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:44,960
Speaker 1: brought out, at least for me, when I was reading

361
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 1: it was that idea of the necessity of reflecting on

362
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,119
Speaker 1: these things, Like there's a way for us to just

363
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 1: sort of go through life and be like, well, that

364
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,240
Speaker 1: day went somewhere. I don't know where it's gone. Now

365
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,440
Speaker 1: we've gotten so fat paced and so much information coming

366
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,679
Speaker 1: at is that a lot of times we're driven to

367
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 1: task as opposed to being able to step away for reflection.

368
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 1: And even when we're not tasking, we tend to be

369
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 1: sort of tempted to just top on Netflix and stream

370
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:20,719
Speaker 1: a whole show at one time. And you know, like

371
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,159
Speaker 1: we've lost this sort of aged and that sort of

372
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: breakup of commercials even gave us at least a little

373
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 1: bit of time to take a break from a story, right,

374
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 1: we just don't have that baked in anymore. And so

375
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,360
Speaker 1: as I was reading through your book, that just came

376
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,280
Speaker 1: to my mind because I think it maybe you'd agree

377
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,359
Speaker 1: with this, but in order to find those things in

378
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: ordinary life and understand their significance, you have to also

379
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 1: have time to think about them. It can't just be

380
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep doing them.

381
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 2: Wow, that's incredibly well said. It almost feels like, and

382
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 2: I know people are doing this work that we need

383
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 2: to think more about humans and rhythms in light of

384
00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:01,239
Speaker 2: our technological world. Right, Jamie Smith wrote his book, he

385
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 2: talked a lot about the culture of the mall. Well,

386
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 2: who goes to a mall much anymore? Not right? It

387
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 2: is a constant stream of consumerism of entertainment. And I

388
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 2: don't mean to be like super negative. I always feel

389
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 2: like I'm an old person, like, oh, that technology is there,

390
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,840
Speaker 2: but we do, as Christians, need to be very thoughtful

391
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 2: about it, and if we're always caught up in it,

392
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 2: then we can't stop and think. And so worshiping with

393
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: fellow Christians according to a rhythm where we're all thinking

394
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 2: in the same ways reminds us that we're connected to

395
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 2: other people and gives us a little time out to

396
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 2: consider who we are and what we do. You've said that, really, well,

397
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: that's important to do.

398
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,159
Speaker 1: That gets back to something I wanted to ask. So

399
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 1: we have this ordinary time, which within the Protestant tradition, right,

400
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 1: ordinary time where we have more open space and we

401
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 1: can kind of do what we want. Yeah, isn't necessarily

402
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 1: a good thing, and you can certainly see how it

403
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 1: can go off the rails. But then also you have

404
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 1: this sort of these lit of liturgical times that I'm

405
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: wondering if you can just comment on as you're going

406
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: through these, you know, the church calendar, going through Advent,

407
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: you're going through Lent. Some of my experience recently has

408
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 1: been that people just don't think about it. You go

409
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: through motions and so you have problems on both sides.

410
00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 1: It's like you become so familiar, yes, yes, that you

411
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,840
Speaker 1: lose the significance of it and it almost feels like

412
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 1: it collapses into that ordinary time that you're talking about.

413
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 1: You know that this idea that if we're not really

414
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: reflecting and deeply understanding it will lose it. So can

415
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: you just kind of talk a little bit about any

416
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,399
Speaker 1: insights you had maybe on ordinary time and relation to

417
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: the calendar, and how the formative effects of both of

418
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: those maybe are maybe need to be bolstered a bit.

419
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a beautiful question. So, having just kind of

420
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: come out of Advent and Christmas, that's fresh on my

421
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: mind right. So Advent, I think is a really fascinating

422
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 2: and I see more and more Christian communities wanting to

423
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: do some kind of practice of Advent. But if you

424
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 2: are liturgical, if you've grown up there. You know, the

425
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 2: colors change, you know the readings, it doesn't. And so

426
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: I think there is a responsibility for Christians, a responsibility,

427
00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 2: especially for those who are shaping worship, say okay, yes,

428
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: this is a season of preparation, but let's give a focus. So,

429
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 2: for instance, we ended up focusing on all the Isaiah

430
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: passages this advent and the theme of returning to God

431
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 2: and then lo and behold discovering that God has already

432
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 2: come to us. And that gave like there was a

433
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: boundary of hey, we're in a season of preparation, but

434
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 2: we also needed a focus. And this is where liturgical

435
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 2: traditions I think can learn from free church traditions because

436
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 2: everything is open. You all have to be really creative

437
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: in telling your people here's our focus, here's what we're doing.

438
00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 2: Our messaging is consistent, and there's a danger on kind

439
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 2: of my now my chosen tradition be like, well, we've

440
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 2: got the church calendar, we've got the lectionary. We don't

441
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: need to be we don't to think that much. We

442
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: still need to within those boundaries guide ourselves and our

443
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: people to say, what are we doing in this season?

444
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 2: And we need kind of a fresh focus to awaken us.

445
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 2: And it also says katechisis right any of our traditions.

446
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 2: If people are only coming to worship, that's better than not.

447
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: But there's not an opportunity then in a community to

448
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 2: reflect on what we're doing. So we need those small

449
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: groups in Sunday School there. I sound like a Baptist, right,

450
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 2: like we need to just keep getting together. But I

451
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,879
Speaker 2: think that's the rhythm for all of us. So I

452
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: don't know if that helps. But but then maybe what

453
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: that does for ordinary time is that it does say, Okay,

454
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 2: this is a time of growth. We're a time of

455
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 2: listening to the life of Jesus. But that's why I

456
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: started the book, and I started my research recognizing that,

457
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 2: you know, this is described as a season with no

458
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: feasts or but that's not quite right. There are these

459
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: little glimmers of celebrations that happen throughout and I think

460
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 2: that says something about God recognizing us as humans. It

461
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,160
Speaker 2: would be really hard to go through twenty nine weeks

462
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,959
Speaker 2: of drudgery, right, Humans kind of need a party, and

463
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: so we do have these moments where we're celebrating the

464
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 2: trying nature of God, the body of Christ. Different saints,

465
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: different brothers and sisters in the faith that we think

466
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 2: about so and of course every Sunday is meant to

467
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 2: be a celebration. Every Sunday we are feasting with our Lord,

468
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: and so we need we need those things sprinkled through

469
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 2: as well. In ordinary time is not just this kind

470
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 2: of wilderness.

471
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think it's really helpful to hear you

472
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: talk through that, because what I hear you saying is

473
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: there can be progress within the liturgical tradition. Yes, right,

474
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: because you're consistently focusing in on something very particular. You're

475
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: helping people grasp what you're doing a greater depth or

476
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: from a different angle. You know, it's not like, you know,

477
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: if we think about it to college, it's not like

478
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: you're taking you know, Bible one oh one sixteen times

479
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: over right, right, You're seeing a progression within that. And

480
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: even though the calendar comes up in the same at

481
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: the same time, which gives it to some structure, there

482
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: can be some interesting wrinkles within that to sort of

483
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: guide and deepen people's understanding and then also understanding that

484
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,680
Speaker 1: the ordinary time isn't just empty, that there's a there

485
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: is an ongoing influence within that calendar, even just from

486
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 1: the Bible readings themselves that are intended to prompt our

487
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: reflection and give us, you know, this time to really

488
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 1: reflect and think and be formed differently. Right.

489
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: And you know, even as you say that my personality

490
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 2: type is I like doing things all of the time. Yeah,

491
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 2: and so it's really been good for me to and

492
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 2: I kind of talk about this in the beginning of

493
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: the book. It was funny when I was asked to

494
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,199
Speaker 2: do this because I always felt like ordinary time was

495
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: just boring.

496
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: Yes, long, I love that.

497
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's not that much going on. But it's actually

498
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: been really good for me both to realize it's not

499
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 2: boring and that was a discovery that I've really been changed.

500
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: I'm like so excited we're going to wear green this week,

501
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 2: Like I just cannot wait that we get a few

502
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: weeks of green, but also that to realize that there

503
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: are it's actually good for a person like me to

504
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: have seasons where there's not ninety important exciting things going on.

505
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: If that summer season, that ordinary season feels a little slow,

506
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: sometimes I need to listen to that as well. So, yes,

507
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: is there growth happening. It's not passive, but it might

508
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 2: not be as fireworks as the other times. And that's

509
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: actually good. Right at the beginning of the book, I

510
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: reflect like, if we had something crazy, amazing or crazy

511
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: terrible happened every single day, there would be no time

512
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: to think about it. And so that's the other thing

513
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: that ordinary time offers us is to both reflect back

514
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 2: on the first part of the calendar year. Where did

515
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: God show up to us in Christmas? What did we

516
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: change or want to change about ourselves in Lent? And

517
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: then how are we going to get ready for this

518
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: next year. If we didn't have that quote off time,

519
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: we wouldn't be able to contemplate the amazing things that

520
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 2: God had done and we'll do in the future.

521
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: The other thing I've so yeah, I mean I thought

522
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: it was amazing. I would have felt the same way.

523
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: It's like we're not doing anything. This seems like this

524
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: seems like my worst nightmare, like we should be doing

525
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: something right. And so what strikes me and just what

526
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: you said is maybe two things. Number One, maybe we

527
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: do need to just change the way we talk about

528
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: that ordinary time, even within the Free Church tradition, like

529
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: taking the summer off probably isn't the best way to

530
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: message that yeah, right, everybody, you know, Jesus goes on

531
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: vacation exactly, Like, that's not really what we want to convey.

532
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: But then number two, one of the things I was

533
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask you about this is in

534
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: that ordinary time because the church is taking a bit

535
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: of a step back, you know, as a as an institution.

536
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: Let's say, the institution of the church is taking a

537
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: step back, and they're not going to manage now what

538
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: happens in ordinary time as strongly as they might av Lent,

539
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: Pentecost all these other ones. Is there a sense in

540
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: which you see in the literature a difference between the

541
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: formation that happens within a congregation underneath an authority and

542
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: the agency of individual Christians taking on the responsibility for

543
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: their own spiritual growth in ordinary time. I mean that

544
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: may be importing very today's cultural norms back on, right,

545
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: but I just wondered if you found anything within the

546
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: tradition to sort of even suggest that.

547
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: If I'm sure, and this sounds like a really important question,

548
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: I want to make sure I'm capturing it. That ordinary

549
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: time because the church institution is not as kind of

550
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 2: hands on, offers a little more opportunity for individuals to

551
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 2: explore their growth. Is that what you're wondering.

552
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that sense of Okay, if I'm outside of

553
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: the I don't want to say program, but I'm outside

554
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: the church is no longer sort of driving this for me,

555
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: it's taking its hands off the wheel a bit and saying, here,

556
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: you drive for a bit. I was wondering if you

557
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: saw any of that within the tradition or whether that's

558
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: something I'm just reading in, you know, from a that

559
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: is fascinating.

560
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: I've never thought to ask the question in that way,

561
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: so I'd have to go back to some research. But

562
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: here's what strikes me is that in the intense seasons,

563
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: maybe particularly lent, as we prepare for the major thing,

564
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: there is a lot of admonition for people to be

565
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: either taking up new things or letting go of things

566
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 2: in their individual lives. So there's a lot of you

567
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: need to be driving the wheel at this time, but

568
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: almost really every day or you know, multiple times a week,

569
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: you can come and gather communally. And this is overseen

570
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: by the church. So if there is a chains that

571
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: just shift an emphasis that, I think maybe the difference

572
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: and this could be modern you know, I recognize that

573
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: Christians of the past and monasteries or you know, celibate

574
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 2: preas it would be different. But another thing that I

575
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: think in a modern context, ordinary time offers is a

576
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: little bit of a breather for church leadership. And maybe

577
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: then there is a demonstration there that hey, just like

578
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: Jesus did throughout his ministry, we need time to retreat

579
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: and kind of fill our own souls. Right, that's become

580
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: the time where clergy can say, hey, I'm taking off

581
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: this week. You take off this week, because nobody can

582
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: take off during lint or Easter or Christmas or atod.

583
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 2: And so in kind of an exemplar kind of way,

584
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: it says to the laity, oh, hey, you know, Jesus

585
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 2: took time. Our leaders are humans. They need to take

586
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 2: time to fill their souls. It's good for me to

587
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 2: imagine too, in this extended period of time, not how

588
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 2: am I doing the kind of intense practices of lent,

589
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: but how do I kind of rest into the growth

590
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: that's happening. And this is where I think the nature

591
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: motif is really helpful. And of course that's throughout scripture.

592
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 2: Jesus is parable sure, right, yes, it's active, and we

593
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: want to be responsive to God. But growth is first

594
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: and foremost and primarily what God, through the power of

595
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: the Spirit, is doing in us. Now, my kind of

596
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: so teiology, my sense of how humans interact with God,

597
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 2: is that we can resist that. But if we take

598
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: ordinary time to kind of relax into what God is doing,

599
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 2: God wants to grow us, and so it becomes not

600
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: passive but more a time that you could think receptively

601
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: about what does it look like rest in God.

602
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really helpful. Yeah, I like that, thinking receptively

603
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: about what God is doing, stepping back and watching him work.

604
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and these parables right like oh the harvest

605
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 2: sprung up and I didn't even do anything and it

606
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: happened overnight. I mean that could be dangerous of like, oh,

607
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 2: you never have to do anything in your Christian life. No,

608
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 2: that's not what, of course anyone would say. But I

609
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 2: don't know. Maybe my background or my personality. I'm tend

610
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: to be like I can if I work really hard,

611
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: if I really try, then God will show up. And

612
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: sometimes the call is cease striving right, rest for a

613
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: little bit, know that I'm in control. And of course

614
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 2: we have that with the regular rhythm of sabbath, right,

615
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: Like that's why we take the day off, to know

616
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: we accomplish everything. What if we thought of ordinary time

617
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: almost as this extended sabbath of the church, here where

618
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 2: we rest in what God is doing.

619
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really interesting concept. I mean, I think

620
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: we're so unattuned to the need for rest. Yeah, in

621
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: a lot of ways in today's world. I mean you're

622
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: even seeing it in scientific research on sleep and the

623
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: need for good sleep, Like there's a reason that stuffs

624
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: coming out, and it's because people don't sleep well. And

625
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: so you know, there's these new sort of emphasies placed

626
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: on the body needs rest. There needs to be a

627
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 1: rhythm here, you know. And this is actually really important.

628
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: I do a lot in the fitness industry, and so

629
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: it's really important for your fitness and those kind of things.

630
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 1: And so I think it sort of rings true to

631
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 1: me that we would have this moment in the midst

632
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: of the church calendar where we don't necessarily stop working

633
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: for twenty nine weeks, but we're not putting ourselves through

634
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: all the paces. Like there's something to the idea that

635
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 1: we've done the heavy lifting and now this is a

636
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: time for us to sort of take a step back

637
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: and reflect and rest and let the work we've already done,

638
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: the pieces that we've been participating with God in catch

639
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: up a little bit and let our bodies catch up

640
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: to that work.

641
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 2: Wow, somehow I love that. That's Yeah, such a wonderful conversation.

642
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 2: I think those ideas were kind of nascent, but you've

643
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: articulated them really clearly. Well.

644
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 1: I think the I feel like the book it kind

645
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: of brings them out. I hadn't ever thought about ordinary

646
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: time until the book, and so I was looking. I

647
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: picked it up, and I was kind of expecting the

648
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: Liturgy of the Ordinary. That's what I was expecting, right,

649
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 1: And then I was like, Oh, that's not what this

650
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: is at all. And so it sort of opened up

651
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: a whole set of different thoughts because I never really

652
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: thought about the whole in the church calendar. I need

653
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: to call it that. But you get what I'm.

654
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: Saying exactly exactly.

655
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 1: Let me ask you one other because I feel like

656
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: it's almost obligatory for me to do this as an

657
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 1: Old Testament guy. But your Image of God chapter talk

658
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: about how the image of God plays into ordinary time

659
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: a little bit. I was fascinated by your take in there.

660
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 2: So that decision, just to back up for one second,

661
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: is that as a Bible scholar, right, not no one

662
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 2: would be surprised that I'm like. The first kind of

663
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 2: question I ask is, well, how can I focus on

664
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: the texts? Right? That's where I feel comfortable, I know

665
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 2: what to do. But then, shockingly, and it came about

666
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,479
Speaker 2: because I was at a Christian camp several summers ago

667
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: and was asked to speak to the camp and I

668
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 2: was like, well, what are the lectionary passage? Right? Lectionary?

669
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: For those us? In the liturgical tradition, we're kind of

670
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: given a handful of scriptures each week as guidance of

671
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 2: what we could select. And I noticed that in this

672
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: ordinary time there was a focus on Abraham and Sarah

673
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: and Hagar and Ishmael and their families. And ended up

674
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 2: preaching through those texts and just felt like I discovered

675
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: and learned largely from my Old Testament colleagues reading from them,

676
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: but just in God's word, this is amazing. And then

677
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 2: it struck me, this is an ordinary family, even though

678
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 2: God does something crazy with them, they have struggles, They're ordinary,

679
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: So what would it look like to exegy to talk

680
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 2: about their story? In this book. And so that Image

681
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: of God chapter is the story in Genesis eighteen where

682
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: these angelic visitors come to see Abraham and says, I

683
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: mean it's a thorny, difficult passage, like is the manifestation

684
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: of God or the triune God? And so I in

685
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: that chapter reflecting on how do we see God? And

686
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: then when we see God, how do we see ourselves? Right?

687
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: Because image of God and Christian tradition is both humans

688
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 2: are created in the image of God, and chiefly it

689
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 2: is Jesus, the son of God, who reveals God to

690
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: us and reveals true and ideal humanity. And so I

691
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 2: saw glimmers of that really powerful implications for that in

692
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 2: this interchange between these visitors in Abraham and Sarah. And

693
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: then that catapulted me into the hard stories of when

694
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: Hagar ni Ishmael are sent out and then when Abraham

695
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: is willing to sacrifice Isaac, so that I mean, that's

696
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 2: always true. I spend so much time thinking about the incarnation.

697
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: Who is Jesus, how does he reveal God and humanity?

698
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: And it was fun for me to reflect on that.

699
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of those examples in ordinary

700
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 2: time we say always our foundation of like human ethics

701
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 2: is that we all bear the image of God. That's awesome.

702
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: Let's press in a little bit, and these readings in

703
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 2: ordinary time allow us the space again to pause and

704
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 2: reflect on what that might mean.

705
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: Well, I was both impressed and surprised that you would

706
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: pick Genesis eighteen. So I'm like, there's so much complexity there,

707
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: just like you said, like there's a million things you

708
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 1: could go off on. But what I kind of loved

709
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: about it in the chapter as I thought about it,

710
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, there wasn't anything going on. You know, if

711
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: you go to Genesis fourteen, you know, Abraham's fighting a battle.

712
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: If you go to Genesis fifteen, there's this grand vision.

713
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 1: If you go to Genesis, you know, like there's always

714
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: something going on. Yeah, but not in Genesis eighteen. In

715
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 1: Genesis eighteen, these angels just come up and visit the tent,

716
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: like Abram is just hanging out with Sarah and like, hey,

717
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,719
Speaker 1: let's fix some some food. And then they don't really

718
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: do anything nor they just have a discussion. Yes, And

719
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: so I'm like, it's a beautiful picture of this ordinary

720
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: time that I think you're trying to illustrate. Even in

721
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: the story. There's it's not a big event. It's it's

722
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: a conversation, right.

723
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 2: Right, It's a meal and a conversation. Well, that happens

724
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: three times a day, right, and that's when God shows

725
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: up to say I'm about to do something miraculous.

726
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so that's a that chapter I thought was

727
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: really well done. I love the I love the Genesis

728
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: eighteen piece. And then I think the last thing I

729
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,759
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to ask you about was, or maybe

730
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 1: the last thing we have time for is the Trinity chapter.

731
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: So you mentioned earlier, you know, we have Grinity Sunday, right,

732
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: We're constantly talking about the Trinity, right, and you have

733
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: a chapter called Triune. I'll admit I've always been it's like,

734
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: I believe in the Trinity, but I'm always uncomfortable with

735
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 1: it because it's so inscrutable, like you just don't know

736
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: what's going on there, and so I'm sort of fascinating

737
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 1: to read the chapter. But if you could just give

738
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: a little bit of a sense of what you're thinking

739
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: about in that chapter, how that impacts ordinary time, I

740
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: think that would really help help listeners.

741
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So, yeah, that was the opportunity again kind of

742
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 2: an overwhelmed to be like, in this little book, could

743
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: I write a chapter on the Trinity where people have

744
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: still for a million fire?

745
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 1: Right?

746
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 2: But I approach it liturgically, Right, I take a look

747
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 2: at the prayers that we say each week, that's really

748
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: the focus some of the passages the celebration. My question

749
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 2: there was we say Fathers in Holy Spirit a lot

750
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: in really all Christian traditions, especially in my liturgical tradition.

751
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: And that's some of my previous work is like, I've

752
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: always been energized what do we mean by this language

753
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 2: that God has given us? And so here I attend

754
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,359
Speaker 2: to and I want to be careful here, right, there's

755
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 2: so much danger with talking of the Trinity. But in

756
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 2: the liturgy there is an allowance for us to pause

757
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,439
Speaker 2: and say, who is our Father? What are the aspects

758
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: the revelations of God's fatherhood? And we have that in

759
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 2: a prayer. Who is Jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit?

760
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: And if someone is able to attend regularly throughout ordinary time,

761
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: they're going to hear the proclamations of the revelations of Father, Son,

762
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: and Holy Spirit, And of course they all work beautifully together,

763
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: and that they are one God. But there are ways

764
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: in which scripture and church tradition gives us an opportunity

765
00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: to think about God as creator, God as the father

766
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 2: who sends the sun, and the Son is the one

767
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: who reconciles the world, the Spirit as the one who

768
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: speaks through the prophets. There is a unity in what

769
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: they do, but there are also particularities of expression, and

770
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: in some ways I think I began that chapter with

771
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 2: that him Saint Patrick's breastplate, which is like this long,

772
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: beautiful hymn of all the things about the Trian God.

773
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: And we have to recognize that when we say this

774
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: language and prayer and worship, we are speaking back what

775
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: God has given to us. We are speaking truth. But

776
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: we do it in worship, recognizing that there is always

777
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,359
Speaker 2: this sense of we can't wrap our minds or our

778
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 2: hands around it. Right. I love my theologian friends say

779
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: that if we could understand God and kind of wrap

780
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 2: it up neatly with the Beau, well, that wouldn't be God,

781
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: because God, then we would be over God. God wouldn't

782
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 2: be sovereign over us. So readers may find the chapter

783
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 2: a bit dissatisfying, and that I don't know that I

784
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 2: give any like cute quips of here's how to think

785
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: about the Trinity, but more I'm saying, as you experience worship,

786
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: how might you attend to the revelations of God, Father, Son,

787
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: and Holy Spirit.

788
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 1: Yeah? I found it. I found that emphasis actually helpful.

789
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: I thought the Saint Patrick's poem was great. And one

790
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: thing that I so the State of Theology report came

791
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: out or they're familiar with that, but Liganeer did. And

792
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: so one of the one of the challenges in the

793
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: report was that people tended to evangelical Christians tended to

794
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 1: affirm the Trinity, but then when they were asked specific

795
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: questions about the Spirit, they called them a force. Yes, yeah,

796
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: I did that right, Yeah, And I just I was like, man,

797
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: this chapter really conveys the idea that, no, the Spirit

798
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: is not a force, right, he gives power. Maybe, but

799
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: he gives the power, and so the Spirit is this person.

800
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: And I thought all the theological arguments, those are important,

801
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: and they're interesting and helpful, but I think framing it

802
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 1: liturgically is actually more helpful. Like we're obviously missing something

803
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 1: somewhere where we're not really worshiping either in the power

804
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: of the Spirit or we're not worshiping the trying God

805
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 1: in a way, you know, like where are we sort

806
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: of messed up in the way we're talking about this

807
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: that people can walk away and feel like, you know,

808
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit is basically like star wars.

809
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 2: You know, yes, it's understandable. Of course spirit, the Spirit

810
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: hasn't been incarnate. But whateeople appreciate about our liturgy is

811
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 2: that we say the Nicene Creed each week, that long

812
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,919
Speaker 2: affirmation of what Christians have always believed. And there's also

813
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 2: a practice of changing your body posture. So when we

814
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: speak of the sun, we tend to bow in reference

815
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 2: to the sun. That is an act of remembering the

816
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: incarnation that Christ came down took on flesh. It's kind

817
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,959
Speaker 2: of a Philippians too move And then when you start

818
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: speak of the Spirit, you stand up again. And I

819
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 2: have often in my Christian life imagined like as I

820
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 2: bow before Christ, almost as he would like place his

821
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: hand on our heads, of like how he blesses the children.

822
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: But then the spirit who empowers the prophets as one

823
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 2: who lifts our head also a person who is filling

824
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 2: and empowering us. So that bodily kind of posture of

825
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 2: you know, being blessed, bowing down and then being lifted up,

826
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 2: because that the Spirit is the one who allows us

827
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 2: to go and do this insane thing that we could

828
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: not do on our own, proclaim the kingdom, and sometimes

829
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 2: personally right as we if we struggle a bit, then

830
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: we find no, we found our meaning and our purpose

831
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: and our call. It's the Spirit who allows us to

832
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: do that. So I've thought very personally of Jesus blessing me,

833
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 2: the Spirit lifting my head, and that has helped me

834
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: understand the Spirit not as a force, but as a

835
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: personal being who is at work within and through us.

836
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 1: Very good. Well, we're running up against time, so I'll

837
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: let you just one last question to help people understand

838
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 1: how they should approach this ordinary time. You know, what

839
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: did you learn as you after you wrote the book

840
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: that you would leave people with and say, look, this

841
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: is the value of ordinary time as you see it.

842
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I really for me, the shift in researching and

843
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 2: writing this book has been as I anticipate this time

844
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 2: of year, and especially the long period of time what

845
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,919
Speaker 2: we're in right now is so short that the long

846
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: period of time, instead of being frustrated or like this

847
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 2: is going to be boring. I really have grown excited

848
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 2: about what is God going to do as just as

849
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 2: you said, and we kind of let the work that

850
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 2: we've done of the year marinate. I'm on the lookout

851
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 2: for growth and that both makes me excited but also

852
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: teaches me patience. Right, if you're trying to grow something,

853
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 2: it always takes longer than you want. But that doesn't

854
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: mean that God is not active. And so my admonition

855
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 2: would be, you know, if you've never thought about this

856
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: time of the church here, or if you've thought about

857
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: it kind of negatively as I did, prepare yourself through

858
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: prayer to say to God, I'm anticipating that you want

859
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: to do great things. You want to grow me. We

860
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: know that God wants us to grow into the fullness

861
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 2: of the Statue of Christ. And so God, I'm on

862
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 2: the lookout for how You're going to do that in

863
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 2: this season, both through my response to you, you know,

864
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 2: taking on some habits like thinking about your ways in

865
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: the world, but also maybe some time of rest in

866
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,839
Speaker 2: you that you do this work because I'm not strong

867
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 2: enough to do it, but you will ensure that it happens.

868
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 1: It proves it.

869
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: You know, I've always approached advent with huge anticipation. I

870
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 2: love it. Right, it's we're getting ready. Can I have

871
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 2: that same posture for Ordinary Time? That's what I'm pressing into.

872
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. Well, Amy, thank you so much

873
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 1: for being here. Thanks for writing the book. I thought

874
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: it was great. And listeners, this is an IVP title,

875
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 1: so we get a twenty percent discount if you order

876
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: off the link in the show notes and put in

877
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: the discount code, So please take a look at it.

878
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: You can get this at the IVP Press website. Ordinary

879
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 1: Time by Well. It's Ordinary Time, the Season of Growth

880
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: by Amy Peeler and part of the overarching series which

881
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: was give me the series Fullness of Time series, The

882
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: Fullness of Time series. Yeah, so i'd encourage you. I

883
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: haven't read the other ones in the series yet, but

884
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: I'm planning to. So it kind of took me back

885
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: to my roots a bit.

886
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 2: And I will say they are really lovely little books.

887
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,479
Speaker 2: I've never written a book with so few footnotes. That's

888
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 2: not to say it's not research, but it's just something

889
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: you could sit down with a cup of coffee and read.

890
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: It's a very easy read. Yeah not in not no, Wow,

891
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: I couldn't you know, I didn't really need to read this.

892
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: It was so easy. But it isn't you know, the

893
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: normal academic book with you know, the footnotes or you know,

894
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: eighteen pages of endnotes somewhere. It's not that. It's it's

895
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: a great book. And again, really appreciate you writing it,

896
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: really appreciate you being on the show. Thanks for being.

897
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 2: Here, Thanks for such a wonderful conversation. I've had new

898
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 2: really realizations of season and talking to you, so thank you.

899
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: Oh hey, no problem, all right, everybody, Well, thanks for

900
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: sticking with us, Thanks for being here on the show,

901
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 1: and we will catch you on the next episode of

902
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian. I just want to take a second to

903
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with

904
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to

905
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered

906
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

907
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 1: and more.