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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: What kind of near death experience did you have? So?

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Speaker 1: I had seven blood clots, that was what caused me

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Speaker 1: to flatline in the hospital for a lung over forty minutes.

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Speaker 1: But I was piloth dead ts Also, what.

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Speaker 2: Happened in the experience pulled by a light?

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Speaker 1: I could see my still body on the beds, and

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Speaker 1: I was pulled into what initially was a kind of

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Speaker 1: a darkened space. As a believer in Christ, I knew

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Speaker 1: to cry out and I entered Jesus Christ and I did,

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Speaker 1: and immediately I was cheap to cheat with a figure.

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Speaker 1: I could feel his gristles against my right cheek, and

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Speaker 1: I knew it was Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: Is heaven a fairy tale? Or if people actually had

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Speaker 2: heavenly encounters and returned to talk about them, is there

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Speaker 2: good evidence that heaven is real? Our guest today, author

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Speaker 2: Randy Kay not only had a life transforming near death experience,

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Speaker 2: but he claims to his knowledge that his new book

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Speaker 2: has more authentic near death experience accounts carefully vetted than

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Speaker 2: any other single volume. The subtitle of his book is

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Speaker 2: one hundred and forty Near Death Experiences Revealing the Afterlife.

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Speaker 2: We're going to see if his evidence stacks up. Randy,

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Speaker 2: It's such a treat to meet you for the first

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Speaker 2: time and also to have you in studio here at

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Speaker 2: Biola Taoischool Theology.

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Speaker 1: Great to be with you, Sean. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely so, I have totally leaned into after life apologetics.

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Speaker 2: I'm intrigued by it. I'm compelled by it. When I

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Speaker 2: saw your new book, was like, you live in San Diego,

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Speaker 2: we need to have a conversation. You're kind of drive

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Speaker 2: up here with your wife, so let's jump right in

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Speaker 2: this new book. It's called Heaven Encounters, and you start

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Speaker 2: with the words I never believed in near death experiences

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Speaker 2: until I had one myself. What kind of near death

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Speaker 2: experience did you have and how did it affect or

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Speaker 2: transform your life?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I had what's called a septic shock from MRSA.

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Speaker 1: But what really was there the more dangerous and also

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Speaker 1: the fatal incident was having pulmonary ambuli. So I had

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Speaker 1: seven blood clots, including the main blood flow of the

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Speaker 1: pulmonary artery to the lungs, and because of the mercer

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Speaker 1: of the septic shock, I had clotting also throughout my body.

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Speaker 1: So that was that was what caused me to flatline

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Speaker 1: in the hospital for lun and over thirty minutes.

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Speaker 2: Thirty minutes. When was this.

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Speaker 1: This was in two thousand and five, April fifth of

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Speaker 1: two thousand and five, and I did not believe in

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Speaker 1: these experiences. I had a crisis of faith. Actually, Sean

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Speaker 1: that that I went into this because we had a

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Speaker 1: drug that was pulled off the market by the FDA.

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Speaker 1: We had a potential care for Alzheimer's that we had developed,

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Speaker 1: stock plummeted. Much of our investment was in that. I'd

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Speaker 1: about to company, you know, I need to raise about

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Speaker 1: eighty million dollars. Our daughter then, goodness, she developed strokes,

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Speaker 1: many strokes. So all of this kind of coming together.

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Speaker 1: We were in a Christian coffee shop, my wife and

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Speaker 1: I that is, and we said, well, at least we

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Speaker 1: have our health. And two weeks later I was clinically dead.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Okay, So tell us what happened in

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Speaker 2: the experience, tell us about it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So, initially, as is common with these experiences, I

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Speaker 1: could see my body. It was kind of a tugging

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Speaker 1: in my shirt. I don't know if that was my

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Speaker 1: spirit leaving my body, but that was the last feeling

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Speaker 1: I had in the physical body. And then I was

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Speaker 1: being pulled by a light. I could see my still

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Speaker 1: body on the bed, and I was pulled into what

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Speaker 1: initially was a kind of a darkened space. I saw

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Speaker 1: these figures in the distance. I believe what I was

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Speaker 1: was after and looking at this with spiritual warfare, and

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Speaker 1: as a believer in Christ, I knew to cry out

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Speaker 1: the name of Jesus Christ. And I did, and immediately

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Speaker 1: I was cheeked to cheek with a figure. I could

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Speaker 1: feel his bristles against my right cheek, and I knew

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Speaker 1: it was Jesus Christ. And I just dropped immediately. I

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Speaker 1: was like a wet rag and I felt unworthy, but

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Speaker 1: I felt very accepted by him, that he had found

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Speaker 1: me worthy of himself. I had left it a crisis

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Speaker 1: of faith, but I did not feel that I had

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Speaker 1: faced any degree of rejection. Then what happened is he

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Speaker 1: reached down, pulled me up, and he faced me toward him,

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Speaker 1: and I was looking to his eyes and the life

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Speaker 1: emanating from him, and I say it tunneled into every

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Speaker 1: dark place within me, illuminating the light of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: Then he leaned over to my right ear, and he

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Speaker 1: whispered two words. He whispered trust me. And then we

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Speaker 1: went on a life review of my life and his

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Speaker 1: redemption of all of the occasions of my life that

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Speaker 1: he revealed to me.

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Speaker 2: So skeptical his point might say, Okay, Randy, how do

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Speaker 2: you know this wasn't a dream?

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Speaker 1: Well, my brain was clinically dead. Now bear in mind

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Speaker 1: that I had been in the space of neurology and

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Speaker 1: cardiovascular surgery so my entire career, so I led clinical

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Speaker 1: teams and heart surgery. I had been in the neurology

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Speaker 1: space as we were developing, and I was out and

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Speaker 1: watching the DC to introduce a new potential cure for Alzheimer's,

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Speaker 1: and neurology was was my forte and cardiovascular and the

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Speaker 1: brain is verified by clinical studies it is dead within

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Speaker 1: a matter of less than a minute. Typically that outlier

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Speaker 1: study is six minutes. I was clinically dead, that is,

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Speaker 1: the heart stopped, which is the definition of clinical death,

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Speaker 1: for a little over thirty minutes. So my brain was

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Speaker 1: no longer active, and so I could not hallucinate as

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Speaker 1: I originally as a skeptic. That was what caused these

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Speaker 1: experiences and what I experienced was more real than would

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Speaker 1: be this world, which sounds like a contradiction, but it's

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Speaker 1: a very common experience that's accounted for by those who

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Speaker 1: have gone through these. And so I could give you

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Speaker 1: an example on just finish with this. Sure I can

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Speaker 1: go through and this is a little over twenty years later,

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Speaker 1: I can go through every detail of my experience. I

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Speaker 1: can either if I am dwelling on it, I can

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Speaker 1: start counting blades of grass and I can't remember what

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Speaker 1: I had for breakfast the other day. Okay, so that's

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Speaker 1: a conundrum in and of itself, but again from a

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Speaker 1: clinical perspective, having returned, there's no accountability for that.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the common threads I hear from people

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Speaker 2: I've talked with with near death experiences, those I've read

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Speaker 2: in the present, in the past, young, old, different faiths,

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Speaker 2: is they just kind of look at me and go,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a dream. It was far more real and

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Speaker 2: impactful and life changing than anything. It's not even close. Now.

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Speaker 2: We weren't planning on talking about this because we're going

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Speaker 2: to get into your book, but you mentioned a little

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Speaker 2: bit before and we were kind of chatting that speaking

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Speaker 2: up on this, like you waited a while to share,

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Speaker 2: but then speaking up kind of cost you something. Tell

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Speaker 2: us about that.

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Speaker 1: Fourteen years I did not share. My wife knew the experience,

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Speaker 1: my pastor knew the experience, but no one else. I

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Speaker 1: was interviewed for a business book on God TV that

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Speaker 1: I had written, and it was then that the pastor

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Speaker 1: who was interviewing me was a pastor of a handful

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Speaker 1: of people that knew about my experience, and he asked

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Speaker 1: me if he could ask me about that. So when

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Speaker 1: I shared it, I actually sean. I lamented when I

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Speaker 1: was flying back from Florida to California that I felt

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Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit wanting me to share our private time

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Speaker 1: together because I was not inclined to share it. Ever,

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Speaker 1: when I did share it publicly, things changed because all

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Speaker 1: of the friends and the associations I had within the

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Speaker 1: within the clinical realm, the healthcare realm, knew me as

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Speaker 1: a very scientifically minded person, not a fanciful thinker, one

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Speaker 1: that you know, would would not, you know, lend my

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Speaker 1: thinking towards something of this sort. So I think they

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Speaker 1: thought they knew my experience in the hospital. I thought

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Speaker 1: maybe I had a stroke or something like that. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I did have a brain bleed after but I didn't,

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Speaker 1: and so they treated me differently. I was working on

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Speaker 1: a project for bringing a micro valve reformulation device to market,

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Speaker 1: and the person with whom I was working at that

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Speaker 1: time said, well, you know, maybe we should just put

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Speaker 1: this on hold for a while. And I noticed gradually

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Speaker 1: after sharing publicly that many of those people kind of

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Speaker 1: faded away. I was, you know, routinely working with them,

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Speaker 1: discussing things with them, and so long story or my career, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, basically went by the wayside, and we eventually

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Speaker 1: sold our house. We had a house near the ocean

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Speaker 1: in San Diego, North San Diego. Uh beautiful, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I remember it fondly. Yes.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Julian, which is just head seventy

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Speaker 2: eight east, Yes, from you know, an hour and a

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Speaker 2: half probably from there, and those mountains or that that

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Speaker 2: area on the beach is just stunning. So you were

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Speaker 2: living there Carl within year six. Yeah. Carlsbad is Alifornia, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. Everything was was wonderful. You know, my

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Speaker 1: my son actually went to school at Biolah, you know,

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Speaker 1: and daughter in law they met here, so you know,

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Speaker 1: that's that's the world that I lived in. Uh and

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Speaker 1: it was a it was a great sacrifice. But again

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Speaker 1: I didn't share it for fourteen years. I wasn't inclined

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Speaker 1: to do that. It was my private experience, and so

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Speaker 1: there was a very significant sacrifice for me. And I

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Speaker 1: enjoyed my life. I enjoyed, you know, leading a clinical

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Speaker 1: team and a minimally invasive cardiovascular surgery. The research we

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Speaker 1: were doing was something that I love to do, and

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Speaker 1: I got into that field because I wanted to help

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Speaker 1: people and save lives altruistically, you know.

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Speaker 2: So Raymond Moody writes his book in the seventies on

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Speaker 2: year death experiences, and then you have Michael Sabaum and

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Long and Bruce Grayson others doing work towards the

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Speaker 2: end of the twentieth century into the twenty first century.

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Speaker 2: Still thirty years after his book, there's this kind of backlash.

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Speaker 2: Do you think now, twenty plus years after your experience,

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Speaker 2: if somebody shared their experience in your world, they'd receive

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Speaker 2: the same reception or is there a little bit more

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Speaker 2: openness now than maybe there was?

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Speaker 1: I think there's a degree of openness. What's interesting, Sean,

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Speaker 1: is that I have found it actually more difficult within

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Speaker 1: the Christian community to share these experiences. Really then in

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Speaker 1: the secular community. I did not expect that. I thought

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Speaker 1: my brothers and sisters in Christ would embrace this, because

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Speaker 1: there are many evidences in the Bible. We know of

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Speaker 1: Paul's experience and Second Corinthians, we know of Jesus recounting

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Speaker 1: what is commonly thought of as a parable of the

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Speaker 1: of the former rich man and the bosom of Abraham

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Speaker 1: and the former beggar in the place of what we

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Speaker 1: would call are. He was in the bosom of Abraham,

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Speaker 1: the rich man in Hades, so there were numerous stephen,

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Speaker 1: you know, and as he was being stoned. So I

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Speaker 1: did not expect that. I think perhaps, and this is

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Speaker 1: my theory on this, Sean, is that the New Age

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Speaker 1: community had dominated this space for so long that I

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Speaker 1: think Christians by and large had thrown the baby out

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Speaker 1: with the bathwater, as they say, And so it was

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Speaker 1: an uphill battle. Now, when I discussed this with somebody

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Speaker 1: who is not a believer, obviously we're not talking about scripture,

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about some of those validations within the Bible.

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Speaker 1: But when I'm talking with the Christian I'll discuss those openly,

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Speaker 1: and then I'll say, well, you know, is this assumption

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Speaker 1: on your part based on a confirmation bias, or is

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Speaker 1: this something that you've delved into with any degree of objectivity,

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Speaker 1: inclusive of coroborating this with what the Bible says, whether

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Speaker 1: it rejects it outright, which it clearly does not. So

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Speaker 1: it's been it's been that kind of battle, which I

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Speaker 1: did not expect.

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Speaker 2: So I've done videos probably ten with Steve Miller, maybe

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Speaker 2: almost a dozen now he's one of the few careful

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Speaker 2: academic Christians challenging some of the biblical objections to near

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Speaker 2: death experiences. We did one where we took the top

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Speaker 2: twelve because it's a biblical number and responded to them.

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Speaker 2: I think they're compelling, I think their evidence. I think

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Speaker 2: we should embrace these. But I do understand given the universalism,

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Speaker 2: reincarnation New Age beliefs, we often hear that were tempted

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Speaker 2: to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think

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Speaker 2: that leads us really well to your book, because you

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Speaker 2: chronicle one hundred and forty accounts of near death experiences

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Speaker 2: which come from personal interviews. Now, it is interesting, there's

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Speaker 2: another case here that just came out two years ago.

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Speaker 2: These are not from Christians as from kind of the

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Speaker 2: International Association of Near Death Studies to one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty eight total cases. So more and more people are

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Speaker 2: chronicling these carefully. We're just in some ways really seeing

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Speaker 2: this research begin. But I don't know what criteria do

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Speaker 2: you use to determine if these stories are trustworthy and

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Speaker 2: if they're reliable. And I noticed in the back of

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Speaker 2: the book there's an appendix which I appreciated. It's called

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Speaker 2: Distinguishing authentic from interfit Testimonies. So how do you determine

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Speaker 2: and what do you consider a genuine account?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's interesting ions which the organization that you

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Speaker 1: referenced actually is the opposite of my inclusion of these experiences.

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Speaker 1: In other words, they tend to not necessarily discount, but

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Speaker 1: not entertain Christ centered experiences that is meeting Jesus. So

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Speaker 1: it's what I oftentimes say, it's the look at the pattern,

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Speaker 1: don't look at the individual's story. One one story is

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Speaker 1: a testimony, but one hundred and forty would be a testament.

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Speaker 1: So you asked about the qualifiers. Yeah, so I have

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Speaker 1: a team of people now we do pre interviews with people.

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Speaker 1: They come to us, we don't necessarily go outside to them.

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Speaker 1: Many in the past, you know, probably four years, have

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Speaker 1: been coming to us, I had an experience, and so

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Speaker 1: on and so forth. A Pew research that a large

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Speaker 1: number of people do have these type ND experience, not

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Speaker 1: afterlife necessarily. So the validation process is as such. So

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Speaker 1: we're looking first and foremost and for our people, what

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Speaker 1: is their faith? Did they have a faith in Jesus Christ?

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Speaker 1: So we are exclusive. Now I've interviewed those who are not.

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Speaker 1: I've interviewed those who are in the New Age space.

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Speaker 1: I've interviewed and we probably know some of those people

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Speaker 1: you know, and I've I've talked to them as well.

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Speaker 1: But by and large that that's how we were exclusive

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Speaker 1: to Christian and d experiences. Secondly, we're looking for some

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Speaker 1: form of clinical validation. That could be some hospital record

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Speaker 1: which is proprietary, but if there's some experience that is

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Speaker 1: validated in an ambulance or a hospital with records that

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Speaker 1: are availab we're looking at family and their cooberation with

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Speaker 1: these experiences. All of those fit into the domain of

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Speaker 1: did the experience really happen? So we're looking at that

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Speaker 1: foremost then we're looking at the person and the reason

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Speaker 1: they're sharing. As I mentioned, I didn't share for fourteen years.

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Speaker 1: Clearly I was not looking to share. So we want

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Speaker 1: to know what their motivation is and if there's anything

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Speaker 1: that we glean out of interviewing them that shows that

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Speaker 1: they're looking for attention, They're not drawing their experience towards

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, they're drawing it to themselves. That's a knock

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Speaker 1: out factor if they are. If their motivation is one

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Speaker 1: of writing a book or something of that nature, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's a red flag that doesn't discount them necessarily. But

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Speaker 1: also we're looking at the experience itself, does it is

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Speaker 1: it's kind of the repetitive as to what other near

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Speaker 1: death experiencers have said. In other words, are they kind

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Speaker 1: of writing the script based on what they've heard, or

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Speaker 1: are they detailing their experience with a very unique perspective

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Speaker 1: related to themselves. In other words, God typically reveals these

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Speaker 1: experiences tailored to the individual what he desires to reveal

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Speaker 1: for them specifically, And so if they've kind of have

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Speaker 1: a cookie cutter, if you will, account of these experiences,

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Speaker 1: that's kind of a real flag as well. And then finally,

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Speaker 1: looking at all of these experiences, we're looking at a

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Speaker 1: level of discernment as to the credibility of the individual

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Speaker 1: we love afterlife experiences versus let's say, near death is

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Speaker 1: all encompassing Moody coin that term, and so a near

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Speaker 1: death can be a clinical death, or it can be

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Speaker 1: a coma or something of that sort. So we didn't

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Speaker 1: take any visions as a result. Nothing where somebody said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was sleeping a night, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm in heaven. These were people who had

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Speaker 1: some level of trauma, and we favored clinical death experiences,

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Speaker 1: which are far fewer because at that point the brain

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Speaker 1: is dead and the person has no means of hallucination

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Speaker 1: or fabricating these stories that are quite outlandish in some cases.

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Speaker 2: Yeah they are, Yeah, they definitely are. What's the verification

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Speaker 2: point about it? I think that was one of the

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Speaker 2: last ball points. What do you mean by verifying part

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Speaker 2: of the account?

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Speaker 1: So verifying the account is when we get into kind

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Speaker 1: of the ambiguous nature of these We can't verify the

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Speaker 1: experience itself, we weren't there, but we can verify as

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Speaker 1: as a scientific study of it based on other corroborated stories.

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Speaker 1: So if we find any any evidences where let's say

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Speaker 1: there's a contradiction that let's say somebody tells us that

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Speaker 1: Jesus said that they are special and chosen to bring

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Speaker 1: back that message, that's not how God operates. He doesn't

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Speaker 1: he lifts he doesn't lift somebody else up, and he

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean if the person comes back. The validation process

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Speaker 1: is largely dependent upon the motivation, the clinical aspect, you know,

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Speaker 1: verifying that experience. But then we're verifying it based on

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Speaker 1: why they share it and if they share it because

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Speaker 1: God called them to do it, and he called them

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Speaker 1: to do it because he was they were testifying, called

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Speaker 1: to testify that the God of Jesus Christ is real,

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Speaker 1: that Heaven is real, that Hell is real, and that

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Speaker 1: he's coming back, returning and coming of Jesus Christ. That

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Speaker 1: is a key indicator to us that they're doing it

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Speaker 1: for the right reason. And we've covered the checklists of

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Speaker 1: all of these other things that tell us that it's

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Speaker 1: a valid story. And then quite frankly, by the time

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Speaker 1: it gets to me, I have about probably well over

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Speaker 1: twenty that's gone through all of that process that I

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Speaker 1: put on the backshelf because and I'd say it didn't fit.

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Speaker 1: It didn't fit what we call the smell test. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't right, sure, so fair enough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is helpful because different people who are

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Speaker 2: studying year to have experiences have different biases and different

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Speaker 2: methodologies and different reasons for doing it. So Gary Hobermoss,

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Speaker 2: of course has what he calls evidence near to experience.

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Speaker 2: He will only consider those in which somebody claims to

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Speaker 2: have seen something or met somebody that later is corroborated

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Speaker 2: in a way they could not have known in their

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Speaker 2: physical state. Like that is his criteria. Steve Miller, I

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Speaker 2: can't remember. It was one hundred and one hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty from the ender site. He just studied the first

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Speaker 2: one hundred and said, what themes do we see that

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Speaker 2: are showing up here? Do they teach reincarnation? Do they

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Speaker 2: teach universalism? You are distinctly interviewing Christians, which is fine

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Speaker 2: because you're laying your criteria out there, faithful to scripture,

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Speaker 2: but then also walking through the smell test. Why am

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Speaker 2: I doing this? What's my motivation? And then accounting stories.

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Speaker 2: So that's fair given that you've laid out your motivation

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Speaker 2: and your approach to why you do this. Okay, so

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Speaker 2: let's flip it on the other side. What would tell

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Speaker 2: you that a story's fabricated like what will be signed

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Speaker 2: like that is not somebody's inventing this for whatever reason

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Speaker 2: or they're just mistaken.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll answer that if I could just touch on

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Speaker 1: the other experiences in terms of let's say an out

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Speaker 1: of body experience where the person is in the oar

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Speaker 1: and we have those as well in the book and

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Speaker 1: they count the number of mrvin Burst from the South Africa.

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Speaker 1: He counted eight people in the operating room, and I

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Speaker 1: would know the operating room, I know how many people

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Speaker 1: they have, scot nurse and so forth circulating, But he

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Speaker 1: counted that and that was corroborated by the surgeon. So

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Speaker 1: we have those kinds of experiences as well. Those are

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Speaker 1: very difficult to refute. You know, he couldn't possibly have

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Speaker 1: known that. That in and of itself is not, from

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Speaker 1: my perspective, is not the key indicator. Because let's say

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Speaker 1: somebody comes back and they're in the clinical setting. They're

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Speaker 1: talking to you know, a nurse or somebody, and they say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had such people. How many people were in the room,

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Speaker 1: you know, So it's not an exacting valid The exacting

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Speaker 1: validation is you know, if I'm being honest, is not

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Speaker 1: entirely accurate. I mean, it's not entirely exacting. That is,

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Speaker 1: in other words, there's a degree of ambiguity. However, and

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Speaker 1: this is the part where we assimilate or synthesize all

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Speaker 1: of these stories. What are some of those evidences from

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Speaker 1: somebody who has not studied this that coroborates with others

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Speaker 1: that have had these experience. Again, we're looking for a pattern.

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Speaker 1: The pattern is not necessarily the same experience. They're seeing

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Speaker 1: the same things they aren't. Oftentimes, you know, a person

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Speaker 1: can visit can visit Europe, and two people can visit

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Speaker 1: the Europe and they come back with entirely different stories

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Speaker 1: because they're different doesn't invalidate the existence of Europe. So

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Speaker 1: that in of itself is not an indicator. However, the experience,

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Speaker 1: in terms of its effect upon them is that I

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Speaker 1: think the primary indicator these people are. We have atheists

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Speaker 1: who are coming back, that's crazy, militant atheists coming back.

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Speaker 1: We have people who have had these experiences who were

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Speaker 1: like yours truly who would deny them and were coming

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Speaker 1: back advocating for them and losing. Could we have an

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Speaker 1: airline pilot successful two of them who sacrificed their careers

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Speaker 1: as well. So there's that skin in the game that

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Speaker 1: we look for. There's something, a sacrifice that was made,

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Speaker 1: and they are testifying of the lordship of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: Even though some of them went into the experience as

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Speaker 1: either lukewarm Christians or atheists or agnostics. And I was

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Speaker 1: an agnostic by the way in my youth, not going

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Speaker 1: into the experience. So their transformation. Many of them come

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Speaker 1: back and they have sacrifice their careers or jobs when

401
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Speaker 1: have you, And they've gone into various forms of ministry.

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Speaker 1: Now the ministry could be you know, something where they're

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Speaker 1: just you know, witnessing to people on the streets, but

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Speaker 1: to the person. In all one hundred and forty that

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Speaker 1: are in the book came back so transformed that they

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Speaker 1: were very on fire. I'll call it for sharing the

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Speaker 1: great news of Jesus Christ, not necessarily their experience, but

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Speaker 1: sharing who He is, that heaven is real and there

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Speaker 1: is an afterlife, but more importantly thereon there they are

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Speaker 1: virtually to the person in some form of ministry, either

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Speaker 1: formally or informally.

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Speaker 2: So one more question on that if I could push

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Speaker 2: back a little bit, and then I want to get

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Speaker 2: to some of the cases you can say that are

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Speaker 2: most compelling. Is I imagine somebody could say, Okay, there

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Speaker 2: are cases of Christians who come back and are fired up.

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Speaker 2: You and I were chatting before about people who were

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Speaker 2: say materialists having experience, come back and they're fired up

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Speaker 2: about reincarnation, they're fired up about universalism. So if we're

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Speaker 2: going to qualify by somebody's experience, and we have to

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Speaker 2: consider all of the experiences, don't we If we're going

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Speaker 2: to ask what near death experience has actually proven point towards,

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Speaker 2: how would you respond to that.

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Speaker 1: The passion itself is not the indicator. I do believe,

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Speaker 1: you know, Satan can appear as an angel of light,

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Speaker 1: and deception is part and parcel with some of the experiences.

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Speaker 1: Apart from Christ. Satan is the great deceiver. And so

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Speaker 1: we've had experiences, for example, where people have gone into

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Speaker 1: a hell experience as non believers. Initially, the experiences with

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Speaker 1: Brian Melvin was they saw they were greeted by these

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Speaker 1: beings who said, welcome to paradise. He was a militant atheist,

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Speaker 1: as he called himself. And so he saw this mansion.

433
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: It looked beautiful, everything was wonderful, glorious, and so he

434
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: was enticed to go through, and as soon as he

435
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: passed through, convinced that by the pleasant experience he had initially,

436
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: he entered into a hell experience. So the emotion, the light,

437
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,719
Speaker 1: the feelings of being at peace, all of those things,

438
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, Reincarnation is one that many of these experiencers

439
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: who are non Christians, non Christian experiencers would say that

440
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: I saw whatever and the reincarnation happened. Well, the fact

441
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: that they saw somebody and testified reincarnation in the afterlife

442
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 1: is somewhat discounted by the fact that how do they

443
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,479
Speaker 1: know if they see somebody in there, let's say a

444
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: person who is alive, and they see them there in

445
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: their experience, then they translated late as evidence of reincarnation. Well,

446
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: there is no clear evidence for reincarnation. There is. There

447
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: are innuendos, and there are extrapolations of assumptions as to

448
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: reincarnation for the Christian experience or whether they became where

449
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: a Christian going into it or a Christian coming out

450
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: of it. The life review itself discounts reincarnation because the

451
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: life review is one of the effect of one's life

452
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: throughout and the impact that God had made in those experiences.

453
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: So it's appointed once for a person to die, once

454
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: to meet Jesus. And so obviously there's no evidence of

455
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: reincarnation in the Bible. So the person who has a

456
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: life review, and many of those who are, by the way,

457
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: who would testify reincarnation or say that reincarnation as true,

458
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: also testify of a life review aka Moody and another.

459
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: And so that why would one have a life review

460
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: that is going through the life in review if they

461
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: were going to have another experience over and over and over.

462
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: It discounts the need to have a life review, which

463
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: is a kind of a one and done review of

464
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: one's life and why it mattered. So there are a

465
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: lot of conflicts and contradictions to those, but I think

466
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: the primary one is the feeling of being in the

467
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: light of this feeling of being at peace, and all

468
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: of those things does not in and of itself testify

469
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: of a true heaven experience.

470
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: I interviewed Bryan Melvin recently. I noticed the endorse your book,

471
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,959
Speaker 2: and I don't still even know what to make of

472
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: that experience. It was so dramatic and so chilling. But

473
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 2: when I've talked with some of the leading experts of

474
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: you kind of writers and researchers and near death experience,

475
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 2: I'll ask about hellish near death experiences and it doesn't

476
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: fit the narrative of all is good and universalism and reincarnation.

477
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: It challenges it. So many will downplay how populous they are. Right,

478
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: some studies that suggest five to ten maybe even more

479
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: than that, of near death experiences are hellish near death experiences.

480
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: But if you go back, you're talking about kind of

481
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: the core experiences that define a near death experience. And

482
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: this goes back to Moody, Von Lommel, Bruce Grayson, Michael

483
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: Sabam would talk about these kind of core factors that

484
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: show up not every time, but kind of common threads,

485
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 2: such as going to a light, a being that's personal,

486
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: super like beyond natural senses, what you hear and what

487
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: you see, and a life review. What doesn't show up

488
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: is reincarnation. It's not a core part of the experience.

489
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: In fact, Steve Miller's research, he goes, if I'm generous

490
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: on what I've done, maybe two percent maybe two percent,

491
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: which isn't close. So really, what we know about near

492
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: death experiences doesn't promote this reincarnation narrative within itself. Some

493
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: of that is us reading into it rather than what

494
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 2: the experience is. So I'm I'm I'm with you on now,

495
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: and okay, let's let's shift to some of the stories.

496
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 1: Now.

497
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: What I was not gonna do to you, Randy, is

498
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: I've had people say, okay, page one point thirty seven,

499
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: you tell about this girl named Paula. I'm like, there's

500
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 2: one hundred and forty. There's no way you remember all

501
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: of these. So I want you to just tell me

502
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 2: you pick two or three that you just think are

503
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: the most compelling for whatever criteria you choose of near

504
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 2: death experiences that if somebody says, tell me about your book,

505
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: you start with say these two.

506
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I've transcripts on all of the interviews. Okay,

507
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: so I have those, by the way, anyone that says

508
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: they're you know, and our we have about in my

509
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: collection about twenty percent to twenty five percent or hell experience.

510
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: I would call them hell experiences. But from twenty to

511
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: twenty five percent, well, it doesn't mean statistically that doesn't.

512
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: That's not verifiable, but it if somebody My point being,

513
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: if if somebody who is of a new age persuasion,

514
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: and all of the people you mentioned, with the exception

515
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: of Lommel would have been Amal, probably are of that persuasion.

516
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: They put an is h after Hell. And if one

517
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: is to then accept a hellish experience but discount Hell,

518
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: which is mentioned, as you know, more times in the Bible,

519
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 1: then they're kind of they're kind of not being entirely

520
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: honest about it. This is hell experience. And by the way,

521
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: all of all of those to the person who've had

522
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: those experiences come back with some form of PTSD that that.

523
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: Is a stunning thing to me, Like this different than

524
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: your typical dream, although people have had scary dreams. In

525
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: the interview, I mean, Melvin was in tears and I

526
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: think his was in the I don't know, sixties or seventies.

527
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: He had this and it was like it was raw

528
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,280
Speaker 2: for him. If he's the only one you could write

529
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: it off. But you're right, there's so many and there

530
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: you were reluctant fourteen years. In my experience, if you've

531
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: had a hellishnear death experience, you're more reluctant because it

532
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: kind of suggests I'm the kind of person that's added

533
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: to hell that's worse than like something supernatural that's positive.

534
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: So GI give us maybe just like one or two

535
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,959
Speaker 2: cases that you interviewed there just fascinating to you.

536
00:34:52,080 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: Michaelson had idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. He was using oxygen gen

537
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: for years and waiting to get a lung transplant. So

538
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: finally he got the call, went into surgery. The clamp

539
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: came off of his artery to stop blood flow, and

540
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 1: therefore he bled out on the operating room table. He

541
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: met his lung donor in heaven. Now what really differentiates

542
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: this from just a personal account is the fact that

543
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,919
Speaker 1: his wife, who I know Patty well, I know both

544
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 1: of them well. At the same time, she was talking

545
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: to her sister and she said, Mike, Mike is in

546
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 1: She didn't say I believe, she said, Mike is in

547
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: heaven and he's meaninga's lung donor. So Mike went to heaven,

548
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: met his lung donor, so clinical definition of death for

549
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: a period of time, and then he said, Jesus told

550
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 1: him these are your new lungs, and this is for you.

551
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: Use them. So he came back a skeptic as brother

552
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: in law, I think it was Jimmy said, I've been

553
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: praying for you and I had this vision. Skeptic, now

554
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 1: I'm not a believer in near death experiences. In a

555
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,839
Speaker 1: skeptic by nature said I had this vision of you

556
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: and it was a meeting of having this meeting in

557
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: heaven with Jesus, and did you meet your lung did

558
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: you meet somebody there? And so he came back having

559
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: shared this experience, validated by two individuals who were praying

560
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: for him, validated by the surgical team, and he had

561
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 1: this experience of this person who even to this day

562
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: is often is common with long recipients. He has some

563
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:08,840
Speaker 1: affinity for that, that long donor. But that aside. Yeah, understand,

564
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 1: Dean Braxton is another one.

565
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me what exactly was verified and that

566
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: one when you said two people and maybe a medic verified,

567
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: they verified that he shared the story, that he verified

568
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: that he was brain dead.

569
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: What was verified, Well, the wife had a vision of

570
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,919
Speaker 1: him meeting as his lung donor while he was while

571
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 1: he was there with a description.

572
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're saying the two match up independently.

573
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: Independently, she was praying while he was in the oar.

574
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: Now she will kind of known that he flatlined at

575
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 1: that point as she was praying in the waiting room.

576
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: That came later and that she had an impression and

577
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: told her sister that he had met his long donor.

578
00:37:55,360 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: Now the clinical the surgeon has admitted that there was

579
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 1: an error in the opor operating room, that the clamp

580
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: came off and therefore he was he had flatlined. So

581
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: that is clinically verified by Mike. And then his friend

582
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: is the other cooperating Avidue. So we have clinical team.

583
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: We have an impression as his wife was was praying,

584
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,840
Speaker 1: no reason to believe that she would have known that

585
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: he would have met his blood donor in heaven. His

586
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: description of his blood of his excuse me, did I

587
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: say the blood donor his lung donor in heaven? And uh?

588
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: And then his skeptical friend Jim, who also you know,

589
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: confirmed something to that effect.

590
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 2: That was a skeptical friend. Okay, So I have like

591
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: a million questions on this cases. We don't have to

592
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 2: go there, but like, what's the credibility of these two witnesses?

593
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: How much should they talk about the lung donor before, like,

594
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: who else did they share this story? I don't have

595
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: to ask all those but your team really pushed and

596
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 2: probed for clarity and trustworthiness and to match up on

597
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: this account in a way that was satisfying you. Obviously.

598
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: Well, I've had experience with transplant teams. They're a special

599
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: team that is in waiting upon being called that the donor,

600
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: the organ donor is ready, there is no communication to

601
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: the recipient at that point going into surgery. They do

602
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: not want the recipient to have an affinity at that

603
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: point for the donor, for obvious reasons, because then they'll

604
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: you might say, well, you know, you know I can

605
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: I was a young man, for example, and you know,

606
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: they don't want the emotional time. They want the patient

607
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: in all of these critical surgeries. They want the patient

608
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: to have a very positive frame of mine. So there's

609
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: not a description of the donor. For the family waiting

610
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: in the waiting room, there is no communication typical, well,

611
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: there is communication, you know she's doing fine or whatever.

612
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: But the wife's account of having this impression was prior

613
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 1: to the surgeon coming out and saying we had an incident.

614
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: We corrected it. He's doing fine. But there was corroborating

615
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: medical evidence that the clamp came off, which I know

616
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: that happens sometimes in surgery. And so you have all

617
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 1: of these corroborating that. Now, he was an Anglican priest

618
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 1: going into this, he was not prone to lying. A

619
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: very ethical, integrist individual who have gotten to know as

620
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: a friend because we have mutual lung issues because of

621
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: our you know what what did us in if you will?

622
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: Alkans are not particularly charismatic in my experience, experience like

623
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 2: vision and a dream and something supernatural as a whole.

624
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 2: In Mike's the States, he wasn't.

625
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 1: And you brought up Brian Melvin for example, and you

626
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: know I prayed with him. I said, Brian, you have

627
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: PTSD and you need some vision of heaven and a

628
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: you know, and he had a vision of that. He's

629
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: healed a PTSD today. So you know there's there's evidentiary, uh,

630
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, validation of these experiences. And in Mike's case,

631
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, all of the testimonies that we get from

632
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: other people. Uh, as a highly integrists individual would not

633
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: make things up. He sticks to his story. He could

634
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: have embellished his story and said, you know, I met

635
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: my long donor in heaven and he took me on

636
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: a tour of heaven and you know, we saw this

637
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: and there was none of that. It was very clear,

638
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 1: straightforward testimony.

639
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: That's super interesting is we don't have to sidetrack on this,

640
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 2: but there are dozens of cases of kind of shared

641
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 2: deathbed experiences and shared near death experiences. We have independent corroboration,

642
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 2: same time, same place, same details. That's especially hard to

643
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 2: explain away if the witnesses are reliable and you can

644
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 2: really document the events. Okay, so you just mentioned a name,

645
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 2: Dean Braxton. Did I get that right?

646
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, Stean Braxton is has the most time confirmed hospital

647
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 1: records for having been clinically dead an hour and forty

648
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 1: five minutes now that I've been in neurology, so I know,

649
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: you know, in six minutes there's typically brain says, you know,

650
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: he's fully cogent and doesn't show any sign that he's

651
00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: had a stroke or any residual effect of that. So

652
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: his was from the case of a kidney stone. An

653
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:09,000
Speaker 1: infection set set in and he had septic shock and

654
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: that that led him to go into the hospital. And

655
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: he explains his experience in depth. He explains seeing as

656
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 1: is common as you know, some of his deceased relatives

657
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: in heaven. And then he goes through his experience in

658
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: great detail in the minutia of things. Now his doctor

659
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: and this is he's been interviewed, he's been validated by

660
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: several sources beyond ourselves, confirms that this experience happened. And

661
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: so he did not want to bring attention upon himself,

662
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: as many of these experiences do. Did not, but he

663
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 1: was kind of forced into it when he shared his

664
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: testimony initially to friends and that led to his being

665
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 1: showcased on CBN. Oh and CBN does a very rigorous,

666
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, validation process in and of themselves. By the way,

667
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 1: I have been a documentary you'll see coming out next

668
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:25,720
Speaker 1: year and I'll be in that as.

669
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 2: Well with Billy Hallowell. Yes, with Billy, I've had him

670
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: on here a few times. He's a good great work.

671
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: He's a good friend as well.

672
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 2: He did he actually wrote I think the forward for you.

673
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: But yes he did. He and paper. But yeah, Billy

674
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: is has this great journalistic approach to things. Any I'm

675
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 1: getting off topic. So those are just a couple, you know,

676
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 1: there are I can cite obviously, you know, yeah, one

677
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: hundred and forty of them.

678
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 2: That's that's amazing. One of the things that's compelling to

679
00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: me at first is these accounts are documented carefully, research

680
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: by doctors, neuroscientists, cardiologist saw My favorite people to interview

681
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: our doctors because they stand task, they're no nonsense, they

682
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: want the facts, and these are not people prone to

683
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: just being persuaded to something that's not true. So this

684
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 2: doctor was interviewed corroborates it. He's one of many I

685
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 2: think gives it even a even stronger credibility. Now, there's

686
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: a few cases in here, and you mentioned this earlier

687
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: about an atheist, and there's one I think if I

688
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: got to write, his name is Jeffrey Porter, who described

689
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 2: as like cursed in his way to heaven. What happened

690
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:37,280
Speaker 2: with his story.

691
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: You would not believe that before and after. I mean,

692
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: here's a guy who used the F word, and as

693
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 1: you said, he cursed God. Had never read the Bible,

694
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 1: not once, not one word of the Bible. He had

695
00:45:54,840 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: seven strokes, relatively young man. He had been an alcoholic

696
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:09,880
Speaker 1: and drugs. He was in aboding. He was sailing and

697
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 1: had another stroke and he tried reaching for his phone,

698
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: couldn't get to it to call nine one one, so

699
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: he flatlined. Now he is cursing God all this time,

700
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 1: and you would think, you know, you'd kind of throw

701
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 1: up a prayer or something, but he did not. He

702
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: was to the very end he was cursing God. So

703
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: he went the opposite direction to h double l. He

704
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,359
Speaker 1: explains it as being in this space which is very

705
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: typical hot, the smell of sulfur. These beings, he calls

706
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 1: them demons, who were chasing him and he was trying

707
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: to get away from them. Now he didn't call out

708
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: the name of Jesus Christ. He was very committed to

709
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: the end. He was a firm atheist. However, he heard

710
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: this voice that said to him, this is your last chance.

711
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 1: You need to give it your all. Apparently God, in

712
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: his divine providence, knew that this guy, who was a

713
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: devout atheist, would respond. So he fought. And this is

714
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: all verified by the way as he got to the

715
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:40,280
Speaker 1: hospital in the ambulance into the hospital and then he fought.

716
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: And then he explains it as Jesus pulling him up

717
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: to a place, perhaps not Heaven, but this other place

718
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: toward this light where the presence was very comforting and

719
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 1: challenged at that point that said, God told him, as

720
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: he accounts for it, or reaccounts, that he was going

721
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: to give him a second chance. And there's a chapter

722
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 1: of second chances in the book. And there's also one

723
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: titled grace that defies logic. There's no reason why he

724
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: should have been saved. The doctor. Then when he recovered,

725
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: the doctor said, you must have had you had must

726
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 1: have had a real end experience, the doctor. And then

727
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: the doctor said, from what he had told him, he said,

728
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:49,439
Speaker 1: then you need to receive Jesus Christ. The doctor said,

729
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 1: how doctor said that to him? My goodness, But he

730
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: was a devout aviist to the very end for whatever remain.

731
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 2: Now he's excuse me, I mean he's passed away now.

732
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: No, he's alive now. In fact, when he came back,

733
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: he's another example. So this former devout atheist. The record show,

734
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: the medical records show that the scarring from his strokes

735
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: was nearly non existent. In other words, that doesn't happen.

736
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: Scarring doesn't just go. Wait, but that's confirmed. And because

737
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: he was addicted, you know, he he was addicted and

738
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: he was no longer addicted. He was healed of that,

739
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 1: and now he is evangelizing everywhere you name it. On

740
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: the streets, he's evangelizing. He goes into a store, he's evangelizing.

741
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: He is on fire for Christ. That does not happen.

742
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: I mean the experience of becoming a believer, you know,

743
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 1: being born anew is a new creation, you know, that's

744
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 1: that causes the transformation. His transformation was caused through the

745
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: experience itself and in coming to Christ. He's completely diametrically

746
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 1: different than he was going into this experience.

747
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 2: So your team was able to confirm that he was

748
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 2: an atheist before and other people are like, yep, that's

749
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: who he was that medically he had this near death

750
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 2: experience and now you can just see as his life

751
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: like your team pieces those together before including it in

752
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 2: the book.

753
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 1: Well, there's some we try our hardest to do so

754
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: now there is now in some cases we'll ask are

755
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: you willing to share medical records? There's testimony I think

756
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 1: much of it is validated sometimes that it would have

757
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: the medical records. Those are protected by HIPPA. They are

758
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: in proprietary through friends or relatives. So we'll say, do

759
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: you have you know whether it be a spouse or

760
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: somebody walked you through that experience. Is there somebody like that?

761
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,640
Speaker 1: We look also at the credibility of the person themselves

762
00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: and the fact that in the benefit that I have

763
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: in my case, I can look at it from the

764
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 1: clinical perspective, so I can look at it in terms

765
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: of what he's telling me, in terms of what whether

766
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: that is clinically possible. And for example, the scarring on

767
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: the lungs that there would be and he, you know,

768
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: X rays would show that the stroke, you know, which

769
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: would be scarring, which would cause in the brain, and

770
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: so he had the cat scan or the MRI. Excuse me,

771
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: how of brain? So not all of those sean are available,

772
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: but to the best of our ability, we test those.

773
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: But by the way, when you reference the other book

774
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: with one hundred and twenty eight experiences, they don't they

775
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 1: they they do not have those Their validation I don't

776
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: know exactly what their validation is, but i've their validation

777
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 1: is no less significant than our or no greater significance

778
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: than ours. Is I think ours is. I don't want

779
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: to call it a state of the art, but ours

780
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: is very strenuous. Because bear in mind, I was a

781
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: skeptic about ND experiences going into it until I had

782
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: my own. I'm still a skeptic going into this when

783
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: someone shared the shares their experience. So that's the viewpoint.

784
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: I look as you as you mentioned, you know you

785
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,760
Speaker 1: like talking to doctors and great bolcause they're naturally inclined

786
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: that way. I'm naturally inclined that way. I've led clinical

787
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: teams in MINIMALI invasive, I've been trained and certified, So

788
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: that's my mindset. You know, I've been there. I've been

789
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: in that space my entire career. So chapter five is

790
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,399
Speaker 1: the warning Hell's reality. We talked about this a little bit.

791
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,240
Speaker 2: Is there anything more you'd want to add about hellish

792
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 2: near death experiences? What they communicate, how common they are,

793
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 2: maybe another instance of one.

794
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:21,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Lisa Sharky was a almost lifetime drug addict. Up

795
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: to her experience, she was abused. And this is kind

796
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: of a if I might mention a common theme that

797
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: I discovered as far as the grace of God. So

798
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 1: many of these people went through some form of abuse,

799
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: as did the former person we talked about, Jeffrey Porter.

800
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: I think that does potentially factor in to his you know,

801
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: he's near to the broken hearted. Lisa Sharky went through

802
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: abuse from early childhood of all kinds. She became a

803
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:05,920
Speaker 1: drug addict and alcoholic, and she did not unlike Jeffrey,

804
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: she wasn't angry at God, but she felt that he

805
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:15,400
Speaker 1: was angry at her, and she did flatline. She was

806
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 1: in the from a heroin overdose. She was in the

807
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: ambulance during her experience when she went to this hellish place.

808
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: Now here's another common theme that she testifies of. She

809
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:36,000
Speaker 1: did not feel like God had abandoned her or that

810
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: God was a fault for her being there. She felt

811
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: that she deserved to be there. Now that in and

812
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: of itself for these hell experiencers is you know, antathetic

813
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: to how you would think, you know, they were playing Well,

814
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: why God did you, you know, allow me to go here?

815
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 2: Meaning the mass majority of Americans who believe in hell

816
00:54:58,120 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 2: don't think they're going there. Most of us think we're

817
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,800
Speaker 2: in heaven. Is the point that that's what we would expect.

818
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, And there's something about the soul going to hell

819
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: where the person has been outright denied, you know, the

820
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: God of Jesus Christ, and they realize they have in

821
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: innate understanding that that's the reason they're there, as Lisa did.

822
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: And so she heard then and going back to the

823
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: grace that defies logic, she heard a voice she knew

824
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: implicitly because she knew of Jesus, that it was Jesus

825
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,920
Speaker 1: who told her to cry out his name. She cried

826
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: out his name. And many of those say likewise when

827
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: they've been there, this crying out as in Brian and

828
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: not Jeffrey, he was too devoutly atheist, but crying out

829
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 1: the name of Jesus, and then she was rescued. Today

830
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: she not only testifies of Jesus as her learning savior,

831
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: she ministers to those who have gone through abuse and

832
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:17,839
Speaker 1: drug and alcohol addiction. So her life, as all of them,

833
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 1: had been transformed. And it wasn't transformed necessarily because you know,

834
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: she prayed the sinner's prayer. It was transformed because she

835
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 1: had the relationship, and the relationships itself was very sincere

836
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: to her. And she was totally transformed, no addiction, nothing

837
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: of a residual effect from her prior life.

838
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:45,959
Speaker 2: Wow, Yeah, that's amazing. We've probably done four or five

839
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 2: of the stories in here. All of them have drama

840
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 2: in their own way, but you had a life review.

841
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit more about this, because, like

842
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 2: we've talked about, in some of the main studies of

843
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 2: near death experiences, these are peer reviewed documented, many, if

844
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,840
Speaker 2: not most, of these are not Christians. This life review

845
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 2: shows up consistently as one of the common features that

846
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 2: people report. And again, this is across time, this is

847
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 2: across culture, this is across religious faith, and to me

848
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 2: it suggests a few things that if there's a life review,

849
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 2: I maintain my consciousness in the afterlife. I don't just

850
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: kind of fade into the unconsciousness, so there's continued soul

851
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: and thinking and self existent afterwards. That morality matters in

852
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 2: this life, that relativism is not true. Like these things

853
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 2: challenge certain ideas that are prevalent in our culture. But

854
00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 2: tell us your experience and what are some of the

855
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 2: common threads in life reviews of people that your team

856
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: has interviewed.

857
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think all of what you said is true,

858
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: and that's I think the life reviews perhaps that are accepted.

859
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:58,920
Speaker 1: On the other side, if you will, are probably the

860
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 1: most in need of explaining that you know, Jesus Christ

861
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: is not the way the truth in life. No one

862
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: comes to the Father, but through him, because there is

863
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: this walk through a life. There's no reincarnation. It's a

864
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: walk through the life that has been existent. The life review,

865
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: generally speaking and for myself included, is one where there's

866
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 1: an impression about what we did to the other person

867
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: and others we have. The Lord shows what that person,

868
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 1: how that person was affected by us. So there's a

869
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: degree of empathy for that, but also a degree of

870
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: understanding as to what God was doing in that moment. Now,

871
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: the other side, I'll call the other side, the one

872
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't you know it testify of Jesus as Lord

873
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: would just say, we went through an experience. I went

874
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: through an experience and have no reason for that experience.

875
00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: In other words, it just it just happened. Why did

876
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: it happen? Well, in the Christian experience sort, we know

877
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: that it happened so that the Lord could give us

878
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: a reason for those vignettes that I call him the

879
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 1: theater of life, because we're actually there. If I can

880
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: give an example of my own, So I was going

881
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: through from early childhood. So I was an agnostic in

882
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: my youth. At Northwestern University, I tried to disprove all religions.

883
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: I was heavy duty agnostic with a team of atheists

884
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: and agnostics. So I was a teenager at the time,

885
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: and I was in the hospital as an orderly I

886
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 1: was giving a tray of food to a little boy

887
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 1: about six seven years old, and he was dying of cancer.

888
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: And he told me as such, and he said, I'm

889
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,040
Speaker 1: going to heaven. And I said to him, in this

890
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,240
Speaker 1: the life review, by the way, this is I'm explaining

891
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: the life review and what happened in in my life

892
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: both as Jesus was showing me, and he said, someday

893
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 1: I'm going to be I'm going to be in heaven.

894
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: Not someday. He said, I'm going to be in heaven.

895
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:17,760
Speaker 1: And I said, well that's great. If there is a heaven,

896
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 1: then i'm sure you'll be there. So I'm watching this

897
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: with Jesus and he said okay. But he picked up

898
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:28,439
Speaker 1: on that I wasn't really a believer, and he said,

899
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:31,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to pray for you. I will pray for you.

900
01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: So three days later he died. I'm seeing this in

901
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,880
Speaker 1: real time. I'm seeing the effect of his prayer while

902
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:46,080
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit is explaining to me that the prayer

903
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: of that little boy as he did pray was ushered

904
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:56,720
Speaker 1: forth to stop myself from getting emotional, ushered forth to heaven,

905
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: received by God. And he explained to me that the

906
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: prayer of the little boy, who I did not know,

907
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: was affected and answered by God, so that God weaved

908
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 1: together through my life. Several incidents is as an agnostic,

909
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,640
Speaker 1: including a car accident, other things that should have killed me,

910
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 1: keeping me alive as and I'll end with this. As

911
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: I mentioned, I tried to a team, we tried to

912
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: disprove all religions. We couldn't disprove the Bible as much

913
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: as we tried a huge computer at Northwestern. God showed

914
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 1: me the instant. I looked out a window of my

915
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: apartment and I said, to an unknown God, if you're real,

916
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 1: I need to know you as more than pages in

917
01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 1: a book. I need to know you as real as

918
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 1: I know anyone else. He showed that to me as

919
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: the trigger and these life reviews again, everything has meaning,

920
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 1: Everything has a redemptive quality aspect for the believer. And

921
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,919
Speaker 1: that was an answered prayer. He said, Okay, I didn't

922
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 1: He didn't say this for any money. Basically was telling

923
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 1: me that that triggered what would be then his receipt

924
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:22,280
Speaker 1: of my petition to show myself, show himself to me,

925
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: and that I became a believer.

926
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 2: How old was that boy, by the way, I bet

927
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 2: you can remember, I was.

928
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 1: Six or seven years old, six or seven. He was

929
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,680
Speaker 1: a little boy. I remember him vividly of a child,

930
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: and I didn't remember him vividly. I remember the experience.

931
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 1: But now I remember him vividly from the life review experience.

932
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:45,040
Speaker 1: I mean exactly. I could describe him exactly now.

933
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 2: I thought when you were describing that, you were going

934
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 2: to say in the life review you look back and

935
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 2: were like ashamed at the way you treated and rejected

936
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 2: this boy. Was that a piece of the life review

937
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 2: where there were like positive things how God worked and

938
01:02:58,280 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 2: just looking back at oh my goodness, my I whatever

939
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 2: kind of just sin or arrogance or whatever. Was that

940
01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 2: a piece of the life review too? Awareness of sin?

941
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: Yes, But here's the interesting thing, Sean, and this, it

942
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:16,200
Speaker 1: is this and this blows my mind. So there were

943
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 1: those experiences where I disappointed failed God. And you know,

944
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:25,919
Speaker 1: this little boy was sharing and I wasn't accepting of

945
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: his faith. So when I returned, I can share I

946
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 1: can remember distinctly, precisely all of those life reviews except

947
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:40,880
Speaker 1: for the times that I had failed him, although I

948
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 1: knew implicitly interesting that he had showed me those and

949
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: so I prayed. And this is after I had returned.

950
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: I prayed and said, why is that, Lord, Why is

951
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: it that I can remember all of these other life

952
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,280
Speaker 1: reviews except the ones where you had shown me that

953
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: I had failed? And he said this, He said, because

954
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 1: I removed them as far as the east is from

955
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 1: the west. And I learned that all of those And

956
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 1: this is what spoke to me profoundly, that he showed

957
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 1: me those experiences when I had failed, not to condemn me,

958
01:04:23,080 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: but to reflect the grace of Jesus Christ and all

959
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:27,840
Speaker 1: of those experiences.

960
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 2: That's amazing. One of the things that jumped out of

961
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 2: my book, and I'm really it's so fascinating you shared

962
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,520
Speaker 2: that is that you view the near death experience like

963
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 2: this is God's grace. You didn't have to give people

964
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 2: another chance. And some people are like, well, it doesn't

965
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 2: give everybody near death experience. Well, he's given some who

966
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 2: testify about and you have one hundred and forty there

967
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 2: are here that people can read, whether they've had one

968
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: or not. So what would you say at this point,

969
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 2: is somebody goes all right, Randy, I'm just not convinced.

970
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: This sounds all to my like fantasy and dream and hallucination,

971
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 2: like no way, What would you say work like? Maybe

972
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:09,600
Speaker 2: what would you say to yourself before you had the

973
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 2: near death experience? Or is there anything you could have

974
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 2: said to get yourself to view them differently?

975
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: I think they would be valid if it was one

976
01:05:17,640 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: testimony or ten testimonies even, but one hundred and forty

977
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: I think is a testament. And I'll put it in

978
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 1: context because of my scientific background or my clinical background.

979
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 1: I was in the healthcare industry all in my career.

980
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:36,760
Speaker 1: When we would the FDA requires probably the most stringent

981
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 1: clinical proof in other words, patients, outcome studies, verifications, and

982
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 1: typically in a stage three trial you would have about

983
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,280
Speaker 1: the same number, about one hundred or so patients in

984
01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:58,200
Speaker 1: that clinical trial for the final prior approval. So the

985
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:02,320
Speaker 1: most stringent organization in the world, the FDA, you know,

986
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,440
Speaker 1: takes years, sometimes up to ten years of development to

987
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 1: get to a market. Finally requires a similar level of

988
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 1: validation in these and experiences. In other words, one hundred

989
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:22,880
Speaker 1: and forty being a testament is one as hard to

990
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: discount all of the validation processes aside when you take

991
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 1: all of these people who have made sacrifices of their careers,

992
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: who have made sacrifices of friends, who are doing it

993
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,640
Speaker 1: for the sake of just because God told them to

994
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 1: do it, not wanting attention, aside from all of the

995
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 1: clinical validations, all of the family validations, all of the

996
01:06:57,200 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: cooperations in terms of their consistency of story and things

997
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 1: of that sort, just the mere fact that these people,

998
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: by and large, almost to the person, put themselves out

999
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 1: there so that they could, knowing they would be accused

1000
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 1: of making it up, of looking for attention or writing

1001
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: a book or something of that sort. Sean, I can't

1002
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 1: imagine anyone wanting this kind of attention. I I have

1003
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 1: oftentimes gotten to my knees or just spoken to the Lord.

1004
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:42,560
Speaker 1: I've said, Lord, if you could remove from me from

1005
01:07:42,600 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 1: this maybe and let somebody else do this, because the

1006
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: hardest thing for me is to look is to live

1007
01:07:51,640 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 1: a life of credibility and achievement, and then to have

1008
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:02,400
Speaker 1: somebody say, well, you're just making it up, or you're

1009
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 1: just you know, telling stories of people who make it up.

1010
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: People I've come to know it's it's the hardest thing

1011
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 1: that I've ever gone through, and I've gone through some

1012
01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: hard things. Who would want that? Who would want that?

1013
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: I think you'd almost have to be a masochist to

1014
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: want that kind of attention, because it almost overnight can

1015
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 1: destroy your credibility with some years trying to of developing

1016
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: a reputation and the credibility that is beyond reproach, and

1017
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, overnight people are questioning.

1018
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 2: And these are the real names of people in here.

1019
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 2: They're not hidden, Dean Braxton, what was it do you say,

1020
01:08:49,400 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 2: Steve Porter? Did Jeffrey Porter?

1021
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:57,680
Speaker 1: J Yes, they're all. There's one only one person who

1022
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 1: doesn't have a last name. Her name is Daily and

1023
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,600
Speaker 1: she specifically answered last name not be used because she

1024
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:09,759
Speaker 1: has been at the effect of stalking and abuse.

1025
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: That's nurse. We will give her.

1026
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: But the rest of them their names, yes, and in

1027
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:21,480
Speaker 1: some cases are locations. I mean they're they're full transparens.

1028
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 1: We've gotten approval from every single one that we've sent out.

1029
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:32,679
Speaker 1: Some have since gone on to Heaven are there today,

1030
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:40,760
Speaker 1: so we've recorded their stories for posterity, and yes they are.

1031
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: They are in their real names, real experiences in real lives.

1032
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 2: Are these so just a couple more questions, are these

1033
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 2: so this from you know, Ian's very carefully document one

1034
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty eight cases, these one hundred and forty

1035
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 2: Could these overlap? Are they independent? Are you the first

1036
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 2: one reporting these one hundred and forty stories or if

1037
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 2: they've reported them elsewhere? I'm asking because Gary Hobmoss, and

1038
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 2: again we have to be careful that metric we're using.

1039
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:12,559
Speaker 2: We've talked about to assess these as being valid stories.

1040
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,600
Speaker 2: But Gary Hobmass would say there's about five hundred evidenced

1041
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:20,760
Speaker 2: near death experiences. So with these potential overlap, are they

1042
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,640
Speaker 2: distinct and unique stories you're telling us? How would they

1043
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:26,440
Speaker 2: fit in with other near death experiments?

1044
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 1: Well, some of them may overlap, but rarely. I think

1045
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:34,280
Speaker 1: I was talking to doctor Jeffrey Long Yeah one day.

1046
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:36,599
Speaker 2: At Chess interview him. He's amazing, Yeah, he is.

1047
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 1: Amazing, And I said, Jeffrey, it's do you know that

1048
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: there's very little overlap between a Christian and the experience

1049
01:10:47,439 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: er in terms of in terms of let's say Ian's

1050
01:10:51,240 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: entertaining myself because I'll talk about Jesus Christ as being

1051
01:10:54,520 --> 01:10:56,280
Speaker 1: the way the truth is alive. No one comes to bother.

1052
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 1: I'll talk about exclusivity, I cannot talk about anything else.

1053
01:11:00,640 --> 01:11:06,360
Speaker 1: And that's Jeffrey. I can't be a speaker for ions.

1054
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 1: And plus probably somebody's talking I know somebody's talking about

1055
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: reincarnation would not be in this book. And he was

1056
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: surprised that I told him there's a mutual exclusivity. I

1057
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:22,760
Speaker 1: think he understood the Christian part because we don't. You know,

1058
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 1: some who testify, and you've interviewed some who've reincarnation, former

1059
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:34,680
Speaker 1: neurologist and Harvard training. All of those people would say, well,

1060
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: I'm a Christian. You know, I'm a Christian. Well a

1061
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 1: Christian and also Buddhist and Hindu and all of the.

1062
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 2: Others understand what that means.

1063
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's and so all of the people that

1064
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 1: I've included here one hundred and forty, they will start evangelizing.

1065
01:11:56,760 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: You will not get them in a room, and they

1066
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 1: will not talk about Jesus. He's the one. He's the

1067
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:06,679
Speaker 1: only one. They'll talk that way. That that's off putting

1068
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:09,519
Speaker 1: to some who want kind of an all of the

1069
01:12:09,560 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: above type testimony. So I've never spoken at that organization

1070
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:19,880
Speaker 1: now I've been treated very kindly, and Jeffrey Porter, I

1071
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 1: would consider him as a friend and very friendly, and

1072
01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:27,679
Speaker 1: I deeply respect him, Doctor Grayson, all of those people

1073
01:12:27,680 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: I deep respect. However, there's there's a fine line there

1074
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 1: and understandable, and there's very few that would cross over

1075
01:12:37,479 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 1: on one side or the other. There's almost a mutual exclusivity.

1076
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,599
Speaker 1: Whether it's said explicitly or not, it's there.

1077
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 2: I sense that too. We won't go into the details

1078
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 2: of that, but I appreciate you sharing that. I found

1079
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:53,000
Speaker 2: your book fascinating. Probably i'd have to do the math.

1080
01:12:53,080 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 2: Maybe six seven years ago, if I saw this, I

1081
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 2: would have thought, honestly, I would have thought, this guy's crazy.

1082
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,639
Speaker 2: There's no you can corroborate these stories. I really would

1083
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 2: have been tempted to write most of them off until

1084
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 2: I really read. I started with Steve Miller's book where

1085
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 2: he lays out the evidence carefully for near death experiences,

1086
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:16,120
Speaker 2: and was genuinely pleasantly surprised. Even though I'm an apologist

1087
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 2: and believe in the soul and I believe in heaven,

1088
01:13:18,280 --> 01:13:20,719
Speaker 2: I really was skeptical. I don't want to get taken

1089
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:23,959
Speaker 2: by this stuff. Now, those who listen to my podcast

1090
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:25,880
Speaker 2: and watch know that I'm on board with this and

1091
01:13:25,920 --> 01:13:28,439
Speaker 2: I think it's a compelling to evidence for heaven, for

1092
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 2: the soul, for the afterlife, for God. And I want

1093
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 2: to talk to as many people as I can. So

1094
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:35,479
Speaker 2: I read your book. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I love

1095
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:38,600
Speaker 2: these stories. They're so interesting to me. And I have

1096
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 2: two mindsets. Number One, I'm still skeptical. I still want

1097
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:43,880
Speaker 2: to know why are they telling the story, what are

1098
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 2: the details? Can it be corroborated? Like, I still have

1099
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 2: that skeptical but I'm far more credible and give people

1100
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 2: that benefited out rather than writing it off. So I

1101
01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:56,599
Speaker 2: definite would encourage people to pick up your book, Heaven

1102
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 2: Encounters one hundred and forty near death Experiences Revealing the

1103
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 2: after Life. How else can people follow you.

1104
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:05,200
Speaker 1: In what you're doing? Well, We're Randy k dot Org.

1105
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:09,759
Speaker 1: Heaven Encounters is a program that we broadcast on Middle

1106
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:15,320
Speaker 1: Eastern television because they will not accept any proselytization, but

1107
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:18,439
Speaker 1: they will accept an ND story even though we're talking

1108
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 1: about Jesus. So I have a Muslim in there that

1109
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:28,439
Speaker 1: now knows Jesus as his Lord and savior. So yeah,

1110
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:33,920
Speaker 1: so on the website are all of our different outlets

1111
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:37,280
Speaker 1: that we have, and so on our reaches, so we

1112
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 1: can go into places the church cannot because and vice versa,

1113
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:45,599
Speaker 1: it's difficult for us sometimes to speak at a church.

1114
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:49,800
Speaker 1: So we host a Heaven Encounter's conference. We were the

1115
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 1: first to do a Christian afterlife conference, and we've hosted

1116
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:58,240
Speaker 1: that a number of times now and we'll do probably

1117
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 1: one again next year, and we have one kind of

1118
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 1: ad hoc one in Arkansas this year.

1119
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 2: Well, we need to talk and connect because, as far

1120
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:10,879
Speaker 2: as I'm aware, we just had a talbot this summer,

1121
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 2: the first after life apologetics class. We had Steve Miller here.

1122
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,280
Speaker 2: We co taught it, and so I'm really leaning into this.

1123
01:15:19,400 --> 01:15:21,479
Speaker 2: I think it's compelling on so many reasons. I get

1124
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:24,400
Speaker 2: excited about. I find it fascinating. So we'll have to

1125
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 2: talk and kind of see ways we can maybe partner

1126
01:15:27,240 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 2: together and work. I do think one last thing I'll say,

1127
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:31,840
Speaker 2: it's interesting that this is accepted in the Muslim world,

1128
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:36,080
Speaker 2: because the Muslim world there's far more cases of dreams

1129
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:39,640
Speaker 2: as you know, of people, and people criticize NDEs and

1130
01:15:39,640 --> 01:15:42,200
Speaker 2: we'll say, like, why don't they just share the gospel clearly.

1131
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:44,680
Speaker 2: Now in your case is some others that happens, but

1132
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 2: it doesn't seem to be the norm. Well, that also

1133
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 2: doesn't happen with dreams. To Muslims, they have dream of

1134
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,240
Speaker 2: somebody in white, they have dream of grace, they have

1135
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 2: dream of something supernatural, and it's often years, sometimes decades

1136
01:15:57,200 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 2: later that God sends someone's to interpret it. So I

1137
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:05,519
Speaker 2: don't think we should expect near death experiences to always

1138
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:08,679
Speaker 2: get straight to the gospel, but to provoke people about

1139
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 2: life after death, provoke them about the way they live

1140
01:16:11,240 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 2: their life, challenge materialism, and I think you're right that

1141
01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 2: it's a part of God's grace. Randy thoroughly enjoyed this.

1142
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:20,519
Speaker 2: This is so much fun. Thanks for driving up being

1143
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:23,599
Speaker 2: here at Biola again. Your book Heaven Encounters is fascinating, folks.

1144
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 2: If you're listening, to make sure he has subscribed and

1145
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 2: let me know. Do you want me to keep leaning

1146
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 2: into after life apologetics? Tell me are you on board

1147
01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 2: with this? Is this interesting? Who else should I interview?

1148
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 2: Are their particular stories, are their authors? Are their skeptics

1149
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,719
Speaker 2: that I should talk with? Let me know your thoughts.

1150
01:16:39,960 --> 01:16:42,800
Speaker 2: I'm probably gonna do some anyways because it fascinates me.

1151
01:16:42,840 --> 01:16:44,360
Speaker 2: But I would love to know what my viewers and

1152
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:46,599
Speaker 2: the listeners think. And if you have a near death

1153
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:51,200
Speaker 2: experience story, please think about sharing it here. In a

1154
01:16:51,200 --> 01:16:53,960
Speaker 2: lot of my videos. When Lee Schrobolt was writing his

1155
01:16:54,040 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 2: book on Seeing the Supernatural, he watched as one of

1156
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:58,280
Speaker 2: my interviews and thought it was going to be full

1157
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:01,080
Speaker 2: of skeptics. But what he said all is people sharing

1158
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 2: their stories and being encouraging. He's like, wait a minute,

1159
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:07,559
Speaker 2: there is far more here than I realized, and so

1160
01:17:07,600 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 2: if you've had a near death experience, we'd love for

1161
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 2: you to share it here. Would be fascinating. Thanks for

1162
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:15,800
Speaker 2: coming on, Thank you appreciate it. Hey friends, if you

1163
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:18,880
Speaker 2: enjoyed this show, please hit that fall button on your

1164
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:21,800
Speaker 2: podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this

1165
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 2: yet and it makes a huge difference in helping us

1166
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 2: reach and equip more people and build community. And please

1167
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:32,120
Speaker 2: consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for

1168
01:17:32,200 --> 01:17:34,639
Speaker 2: listening to The Sean McDowell Show. Brought to you by

1169
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 2: Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have

1170
01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 2: on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual information, Marriage

1171
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 2: and family, Bible and so much more. We would love

1172
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:48,160
Speaker 2: to train you to more effectively, live, teach, and defend

1173
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:50,760
Speaker 2: the Christian faith today, and we will see you when

1174
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 2: the next episode drops