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Speaker 1: Before we get started, I would suggest you hit pause

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Speaker 1: if you have little ears next to you, and listen

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Speaker 1: to this episode when you're alone. I'll give you a

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Speaker 1: couple of seconds to do that, because we want to

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Speaker 1: have honest conversations, but realize that some of the nature

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Speaker 1: of the content may not be suitable for all ears

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Speaker 1: access more. Welcome to the Happy Home. I'm our Lene Pellicane.

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Speaker 1: We know smartphones can be harmful to kids and teens,

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Speaker 1: but what can we do about it? Claire Morrell brings

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Speaker 1: a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones.

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Speaker 2: Strengthening you and your family.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Happy Home Podcast with your host Arlen Pelicane.

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Speaker 1: With Jonathan HiT's book The Anxious Generation, and so many

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Speaker 1: tech insiders like Tristan Harris warning us of the dangers

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Speaker 1: of addictive tech for our kids. I believe we are

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Speaker 1: in an inflection point as parents, and I am calling

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Speaker 1: this month Kick Out the Tech September, Yes, my friends,

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Speaker 1: so that we as parents are like, wait, if this

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Speaker 1: is unhealthy for our kids, we can do something about it.

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Speaker 1: And that's what this month is about. If you've been

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Speaker 1: following our story, you know that our children did not

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Speaker 1: have and do not have phones in high school and

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Speaker 1: you can find out more about how they feel about

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Speaker 1: that and our little free documentary called screen Kids in

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Speaker 1: their Own Words, and that link will be in the

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Speaker 1: show notes. Just hop over to Happy Home University dot

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Speaker 1: com to check out what our kids have to say

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Speaker 1: about that. And I'm so excited to bring you today's

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Speaker 1: guest Claire Morele. She is a trailblazing mama in a

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Speaker 1: power suit who is in Washington, DC and she is

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Speaker 1: fighting for our kids. She's a policy analyst at the

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Speaker 1: Ethics and Public Policy Center. She heads up the Big

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Speaker 1: Tech Project and is fighting for good laws that protect

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Speaker 1: our children. She's been featured in The Wall Street Journal, Newsweek,

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Speaker 1: National Review, and her new book is The Tech Exit.

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Speaker 1: Let's get started, Claire, I am especially excited because I

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Speaker 1: don't usually have like policy experts out of my podcast,

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Speaker 1: So we're just like Google and Google. But help us

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Speaker 1: understand what is it that you either saw or experience

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Speaker 1: that lit your fire to say, like, we cannot be

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Speaker 1: silent anymore. We have to protect kids from this stuff

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Speaker 1: they're seeing on technology.

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Speaker 2: I'll just go back in time a little bit. I

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Speaker 2: was working at the Department of Justice and the Attorney

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Speaker 2: General at the time was really concerned about the harms

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Speaker 2: of social media to the average American, but particularly the

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Speaker 2: crimes happening on social media that were targeting children, so

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Speaker 2: particularly child sexual exploitation and human trafficking being facilitated by

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Speaker 2: social media platforms, and these platforms not being held accountable

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Speaker 2: at all even though criminal laws were being violated and

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Speaker 2: they were playing a role in that through their algorithms,

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Speaker 2: whether their algorithms were helping predators find children or they

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Speaker 2: were distributing and promoting child sexual abuse material on their platforms,

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Speaker 2: And so that was really what initially lit a fire

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Speaker 2: under me. I think, in particular, I left the Department

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Speaker 2: of Justice, had my first baby, I wanted to get

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Speaker 2: into kind of policy writing, and a story came across

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Speaker 2: Just my News about a young boy whose name in

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Speaker 2: this lawsuit was John Doe. He was fifteen years old,

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Speaker 2: and he had abusive materials of him uploaded to Twitter,

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Speaker 2: and he had contacted Twitter multiple times asking them to

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Speaker 2: take it down, and they kept responding that it wasn't

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Speaker 2: in violation of their policy. And what really upset me

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Speaker 2: about the case was that he had no means of

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Speaker 2: legal recourse, that there was no law that could actually

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Speaker 2: hold the company accountable to take down this cantent. So

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Speaker 2: you could obviously go after the individual who had posted it,

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Speaker 2: but the company was promoting it to thousands and thousands

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Speaker 2: and thousands of people now seeing this abuse that had

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Speaker 2: happened to him, and that there was nothing he and

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Speaker 2: his mom could do to get them to take it down.

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Speaker 2: That the company received immunity under section two thirty, which

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Speaker 2: is a lie. I don't expect any parents to know,

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Speaker 2: but section two thirty, if you hear that, it just

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Speaker 2: means this is like the main law that governs the Internet,

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Speaker 2: and the main thing it does is it protects online

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Speaker 2: platforms like social media from legal liability for harms caused

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Speaker 2: by third party content that they host. So these platforms

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Speaker 2: they just kind of they act as a distributor of content,

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Speaker 2: they're not publishing it themselves, and so this law was

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Speaker 2: created when the Internet first got started to protect these

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Speaker 2: new kind of Internet companies from viability. However, it's been

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Speaker 2: way over expanded by the courts to now essentially immunize

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Speaker 2: any of these companies for even things that are their

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Speaker 2: own wrongdoing. So maybe it wasn't their content, but their

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Speaker 2: algorithms that they designed were promoting this to thousands millions

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Speaker 2: of people, and yet they still couldn't be held accountable

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Speaker 2: for that or for taking it down. And so that

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Speaker 2: case really lit a fire under me that something is

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Speaker 2: wrong in our laws if this is allowed to happen,

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Speaker 2: and that this poor victim and his mother, his their family,

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Speaker 2: they have no legal means to solve this problem. And

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Speaker 2: so that's what really got me into them this policy space,

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Speaker 2: working to pass better laws to protect America's kids online.

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Speaker 2: So that's the short answer for the long answer to your.

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Speaker 1: Question, and all the moms and dads are like, go,

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Speaker 1: Claire Goo, that's really good. So your new book, The

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Speaker 1: Tech Exit, A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens

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Speaker 1: from Smartphones, we kind of get this as parents in

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Speaker 1: the society, Yeah, this is probably not great for kids,

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Speaker 1: but we're also starting to wake up to say, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, this thing that's supposed to be this normal

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Speaker 1: rite of passage for teenagers is not really great for

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Speaker 1: teens either. And in a second I'm going to ask

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Speaker 1: you about why parntal controls are not what we think

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Speaker 1: they are. But before we get there, you wrote that

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Speaker 1: TikTok is like digital sentinel, explain to us parents, so

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Speaker 1: we understand, like, why is this bad for teens?

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is really what gets to kind of the

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Speaker 2: heart of the message of my book. Why a total

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Speaker 2: opt out is needed. Why do screen time limits not work?

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Speaker 2: And it's because of the nature of the technology itself,

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Speaker 2: these social media platforms, I mean TikTok in particular, because

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Speaker 2: of how aggressive it's algorithms are. They're by nature addictive.

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Speaker 2: They're addictive to the human brain, particularly the developing human

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Speaker 2: brain of a child or teen, in the sense that

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Speaker 2: there features elicit a dopamine response in the brain, which

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Speaker 2: is this feel good hormone, but it's not a hormone

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Speaker 2: that produces satisfaction but actually craving, and so a diction

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Speaker 2: Scientists measure how addictive something is a substance or activity

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Speaker 2: by how much dopamine it releases in the brain and

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Speaker 2: how quickly it releases. And so highly addictive drugs like

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Speaker 2: fentanyl or heroin or amphetamines release something like a thousand

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Speaker 2: times the normal amount of dopamine in the brain. So

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Speaker 2: the problem is that the design of these platforms we know,

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Speaker 2: has these dopamine addicting effects, and I think unfortunately we've

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Speaker 2: treated it as a society more like sugar. Okay, it's

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Speaker 2: something that's not great, but it can be enjoyed in moderation.

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Speaker 2: And from the brain science research that I've reviewed, this

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Speaker 2: study show that the impacts on a brain from brain

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Speaker 2: imaging studies shows that brains hooked on social media resemble

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Speaker 2: the brains of those hooked on the most highly addictive drugs.

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Speaker 2: And although it's difficult to measure the exact dopamine output

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Speaker 2: of social media because these other studies test these things

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Speaker 2: on rats and so obviously we can't expose rats to

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Speaker 2: social media. But it puts social media more in the

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Speaker 2: category of a highly addictive drug like sentinel than it

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Speaker 2: does in the category of something to be enjoyed in moderation,

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Speaker 2: like chocolate or sugar. And it's because of how strong

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Speaker 2: that craving is that even a short amount of time

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Speaker 2: per day fifteen minutes, twenty minutes, it creates a constant

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Speaker 2: craving even when they're not on the app. And so

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Speaker 2: the physical time limits a child might be on a

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Speaker 2: platform just do not match the mental or emotional time

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Speaker 2: a child is spending thinking about the next time they

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Speaker 2: can get on that platform, or what notifications they've missed.

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Speaker 2: And so this is why I really do argue in

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Speaker 2: my book the tech exit for a total opt out,

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Speaker 2: because the nature of it itself, the underlying design, is

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Speaker 2: inherently addictive, in the same way a parent would not

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Speaker 2: let their child do a little bit a fentanyl every

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Speaker 2: day or even smoke a couple cigarettes per ducts once.

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Speaker 2: So we know these things are highly we just don't Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we just don't give them to kids. And I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to argue the same should be true for social media,

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Speaker 2: especially really aggressive platforms that have these constant kind of

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Speaker 2: dopamine features with their algorithms like TikTok.

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Speaker 1: We're going to get back to this because I know

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Speaker 1: some people are like, Okay, I'm starting to want to

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Speaker 1: do this, but a lot of people are like, what

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Speaker 1: you are saying is not possible, Like how can they

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Speaker 1: completely exit? But I can speak from personal experience that

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Speaker 1: a child can go through high school quite happily and

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Speaker 1: well with friends and activities, hobbies, be parts of teams,

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Speaker 1: even be like leaders in teams without social media, video games,

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Speaker 1: or phones. Because those of you who know me know

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Speaker 1: that my kids got those the summer before they went

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Speaker 1: to college, and we'll go back to that. Tell me

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Speaker 1: about parental controls, because a lot of people will think, well,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I am really responsible. I do the

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Speaker 1: parental controls, and there is something there that if you're

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Speaker 1: going to give your child something, at least do put

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Speaker 1: on the parental controls. But the other side of that

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Speaker 1: is you might think, oh, I've done my job. I

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Speaker 1: did the prontal controls. I'm scanning the techs that are

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Speaker 1: coming in, I'm being alerted of images. But it's not enough.

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Speaker 1: Why is it not enough?

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is one of the biggest things I try

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Speaker 2: to explain to parents is that prontal controls, particularly on

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Speaker 2: social media platforms and smartphones, are a myth. The parent

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Speaker 2: doesn't have any real control ohther the device or other

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Speaker 2: what's happening on the platforms. And so I'm not anti

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Speaker 2: prontal controls. I understand that the point behind them is

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Speaker 2: we're trying to protect our kids. But what I think

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Speaker 2: has happened is the tech companies have actually sold this

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Speaker 2: kind of illusion of control to parents, as your kids

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Speaker 2: can use our apps or our phones and they'll still

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Speaker 2: be protected. You just enable the prontal controls. What I've

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Speaker 2: tried to explain to parents, particularly with social media, is

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Speaker 2: that the built in settings on most of these platforms

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Speaker 2: don't give parents real o their site into what kids

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Speaker 2: are seeing or doing on their feeds. It may let

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Speaker 2: you set some time limits or see into some of

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Speaker 2: their messages, but it doesn't actually give you any full

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Speaker 2: insights into what is going on in their feeds in

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Speaker 2: the apps. And then even worse, say you go and

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Speaker 2: purchase a third party p rental control system like a

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Speaker 2: software like there's many available like.

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Speaker 1: Bark or q Studio.

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Speaker 2: These extra softwares are often blocked from accessing the most

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Speaker 2: dangerous apps, so Snapchat, TikTok, they don't allow third party

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Speaker 2: apps to have any type of access, and so it

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Speaker 2: may just allow you to know how much time a

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Speaker 2: child spent on that app, but you have no idea

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Speaker 2: what's happening inside of it. And this is these are

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Speaker 2: the places that unfortunately predators reach out to children through

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Speaker 2: direct messages. But then also just the kinds of content

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Speaker 2: that come across kids' feeds are often very dangerous or

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Speaker 2: highly inappropriate for children to see, and a parent would

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Speaker 2: just have no idea that a child can actually get

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Speaker 2: too porn Hub, the largest online pornography website, through Snapchat,

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Speaker 2: and just five clicks without ever leaving the app. Because

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Speaker 2: all of these apps have their own in app browsers,

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Speaker 2: they have their own portal to the Internet inside the

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Speaker 2: app that often filters third party controls cannot touch. And

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Speaker 2: so particularly with smart devices, there are just thousands of

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Speaker 2: portals to the Internet, and it's just not possible for

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Speaker 2: a parent to effectively lock them all down or be

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Speaker 2: able to see into all of them given the tools

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Speaker 2: available on the device in the apps, where even if

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Speaker 2: you buy a third party control. And so I understand

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Speaker 2: parents might need to have a home computer that the

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Speaker 2: child uses for research or school purposes, and I'm all

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Speaker 2: for installing filters and controls on that home computer, but

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Speaker 2: I'm also going to say put that in a public

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Speaker 2: place where a parent can easily walk by and see it,

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Speaker 2: where there's some method of accountability. The smart device that

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Speaker 2: can hide in a child's pocket that is just very

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Speaker 2: secreted by nature and difficult for a parent to see into.

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Speaker 2: It just isn't possible to have parental controls be fully protective,

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Speaker 2: and so that's why I try to explain to parents

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Speaker 2: that the best thing we can do is to completely

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Speaker 2: opt out of those types of smart devices and social

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Speaker 2: media apps because we don't as parents, have effective control

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Speaker 2: over those particular technologies.

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Speaker 1: I've been saying this very often that complex lately, that

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Speaker 1: complex problems do not require complex solutions. And as we're

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Speaker 1: looking at this, this is a very complex problem. Someone's

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Speaker 1: looking at this like, oh my goodness, I'm listening to

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Speaker 1: Claire and Arlene and they're talking crazy talk because there

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Speaker 1: is no way that I could pull my child away

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Speaker 1: from Fortnite. There's no way that I can take this

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Speaker 1: phone back. There's no way that they're going to look

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Speaker 1: at me for three years if I take away their

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Speaker 1: social media in high school, Like this is what they're thinking.

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Speaker 1: But this complex problem of what your child is experiencing

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Speaker 1: and the kinds of garbage that they're going to see,

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Speaker 1: the sexual exploitation that they may experience, that is like

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it's like a one in five chance, probably more.

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Speaker 1: This a very high odd has this very simple solution

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Speaker 1: of like sorry, like we are going to take this

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Speaker 1: phone away. What kinds of conversations have you been hearing

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Speaker 1: that people have been having that are like, Okay, Claire,

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Speaker 1: I want to do this tech exit. How have they

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Speaker 1: introduced this to their children?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I do think it's really can feel hard

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Speaker 2: to a parent to imagine a complete opt out. But

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Speaker 2: I do think it is the simplest solution. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying it's the easiest, but I am saying it's

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Speaker 2: the simple solution to these complex problems. Is just not

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Speaker 2: allowing kids to have access. There are, though, I think,

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Speaker 2: some points of resistance that a parent will have to

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Speaker 2: push through to do this, and I just want parents

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Speaker 2: to know it is possible, though many other parents have

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Speaker 2: already done this. You don't have to figure it out yourself.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to reinvent the wheel. You can just

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Speaker 2: follow in their footsteps. I interviewed many, many families extensively

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Speaker 2: for the book and tried to draw out these stepping

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Speaker 2: stones then to give other parents for how to do this.

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Speaker 2: And I think one of the key things is just

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Speaker 2: rejecting this kind of premise of inevitability of the smartphone

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Speaker 2: that all these families were like, it was not a

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Speaker 2: matter in those families of when but if they got

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Speaker 2: a smartphone, because I think most parents think, okay, well,

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Speaker 2: it's not a matter of if it's just when they

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Speaker 2: get it, like far, how long can I delay? But

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Speaker 2: I'll think the parents I spoke with really just said,

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Speaker 2: I don't think my child actually needs a smartphone to

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Speaker 2: be a child or a teenager, and instead we're going

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Speaker 2: to find other workarounds if there are, you know, quote

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Speaker 2: unquote reasons that they might need one. So you know,

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Speaker 2: a common reason I get is I just want to

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Speaker 2: be able to stay in touch with my child. How

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Speaker 2: am I going to do that they don't have a smartphone.

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Speaker 2: And the good news is there are a lot of

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Speaker 2: alternative phones available now that weren't even available like five

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Speaker 2: years ago. So it doesn't even just have to be

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Speaker 2: a basic flip phone as an alternative that. There are

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Speaker 2: phones like the gab phone or the Bark phone or

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Speaker 2: the Wise phone that allow you to stay in touch

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Speaker 2: with your child, allow them even to have certain tools

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Speaker 2: like apps that they might need for things like a

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Speaker 2: sports team app or GPS for driving, but without the

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Speaker 2: addictive apps of social media or online games or access

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Speaker 2: to the Internet. There's no internet browser, no social media

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Speaker 2: on the phone, and so it satisfies those communication needs

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Speaker 2: that a growing child as they have more independence might need,

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Speaker 2: but without introducing all the dangers of the online world.

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Speaker 2: And so these parents have adopted these alternatives, and then

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Speaker 2: they've also really tried to find other families to do

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Speaker 2: this with them so that their child isn't the only

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Speaker 2: one of their peers who doesn't have a smartphone or

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Speaker 2: social media. And just even talking to a few other

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Speaker 2: parents in your school, or your neighborhood or your church

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Speaker 2: to do this with you gives your children those kind

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Speaker 2: of built in friends that aren't on it. But also,

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Speaker 2: as you as a parent, you have allies then in

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Speaker 2: this kind of fight with you to encourage you and

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Speaker 2: spur you on in these decisions. So another really critical

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Speaker 2: factor that all these families expressed was that they found

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Speaker 2: even just a few other families to do this with them,

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Speaker 2: to agree to not have their kids beyond smartphones, and

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Speaker 2: so it is possible. And another dad told me, because

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Speaker 2: the other pushback I get is, yeah, but my kids

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Speaker 2: to stay in touch with their friends. They don't even

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Speaker 2: text anymore. They just all communicate through Snapchat. So if

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Speaker 2: my kid doesn't have a smartphone and snapchat, they will

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Speaker 2: be left out, they won't have friends. I think that's

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Speaker 2: one of the parents' biggest concerns and fears. But one

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Speaker 2: dad I spoke with was really encouraging to me that

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Speaker 2: he said it's actually proven to be very positively friend

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Speaker 2: filtering for his kids in the sense that a real

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Speaker 2: friend will find a way to get in touch with

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Speaker 2: you if you're not on Snapchat, they'll text you, they'll

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Speaker 2: call you, they'll make sure you're invited to that birthday party.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to be on the app to know this.

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Speaker 2: If it's a real friend, and he said, and if not,

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Speaker 2: if they're if you're just dead to them because you're

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Speaker 2: not on social media, well that's not a real friend.

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Speaker 2: And so he's a kind of friend you want. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's all the kind of friends you want. And he

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Speaker 2: said his kids then have actually found their real friends

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Speaker 2: fat and not all of those friends are off social

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Speaker 2: media or smartphones, but they're just good friends. They include

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Speaker 2: those kids even if they're not on smartphones. They find

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Speaker 2: a way to spend time with them. And so I

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Speaker 2: don't think you have to fear your child being socially

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Speaker 2: ostracized in the sense that they will find good friends

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Speaker 2: who find a way to be in touch with them

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Speaker 2: even if they're not on the snapchat app. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I would just really encourage parents that the hurdles I

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Speaker 2: think seem bigger than they actually are. That I can

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Speaker 2: assure you the parents who have done this totally opted out,

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Speaker 2: are so glad that they did, and their grown children

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Speaker 2: whom I interviewed, really expressed that they're so grateful that

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Speaker 2: their parents kept them off these things, even if at

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Speaker 2: the time they didn't appreciate it. A lot of them

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Speaker 2: are now in college and they really recognize a huge

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Speaker 2: difference between their attention and engagement in real life and

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Speaker 2: that of their peers, who they described to me as

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Speaker 2: just addicted to their phones. They won't even have a

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Speaker 2: conversation in the dining hall. They're just glued to their phones.

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Speaker 2: And so you are setting your children up for really

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Speaker 2: like long term success and happiness, even if it involves

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Speaker 2: some short term friction points of resistance to kind of

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Speaker 2: push through. On the other side, is this life of

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Speaker 2: flourishing for your children that I think every parent wants.

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Speaker 1: And you can think it and know it as you

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Speaker 1: plan a tech exit. Okay, the first week, the first

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Speaker 1: two weeks, in the first month will be really hard,

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Speaker 1: and I will think I'm supposed to quit, and my

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Speaker 1: child is going to be really mad at me and

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Speaker 1: they're going to say they're bored, and it's going to

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Speaker 1: be like awful. But then something will turn and your

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Speaker 1: kid will start playing the piano again, or start playing

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Speaker 1: football or playing soccer, or starting doing art, or start

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Speaker 1: volunteering or riding horses, and you're going to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, this was amazing. So you just have to

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Speaker 1: get through that hurdle and you're going to find that

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Speaker 1: goodness on the other side. And I can really relate

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Speaker 1: to what you're saying. You know, my kids did not

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Speaker 1: have a phone in public high school in San Diego,

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Speaker 1: and they used a Google Voice number, which was free,

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Speaker 1: and then they would just use the laptop to check

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Speaker 1: and that's how they got the text. But if their friend,

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Speaker 1: you know, my daughter would say, yeah, I come to school,

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Speaker 1: and I just have to pretend like whatever, I'm laughing

378
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Speaker 1: at whatever social media meme people are laughing at, like yeah,

379
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Speaker 1: I don't know what's happening. But if my friends are

380
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Speaker 1: doing something, they'll text me, like on that Google Voice

381
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Speaker 1: number and say like, hey, we're hanging out, do you

382
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Speaker 1: want to come, and like those are real friends just

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Speaker 1: like you said, and the thought that, oh, these social

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Speaker 1: media friends, they're my real friends. Social media is about numbers.

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Speaker 1: It's about how many it's quantitative, it's not qualitative. It's

386
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Speaker 1: about how many people can follow me and believe me

387
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Speaker 1: I will be in and out in a heartbeat in

388
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Speaker 1: your life, Like I'm not going to be the one

389
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Speaker 1: to bring you soup when you're sick. Like that's not

390
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Speaker 1: a social media friend, it's not a real friend. You know.

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Speaker 1: People say, well, I sent my kids to public school

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Speaker 1: to middle school on bicycles, right, and they didn't have

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Speaker 1: phones in their pockets, and they just rode the two

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Speaker 1: miles to school on their own. And obviously, you know,

395
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Speaker 1: my husband rode with them for a long time until

396
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Speaker 1: they knew the route really well, all those things. But

397
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Speaker 1: parents would just really think we were off our rockers,

398
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Speaker 1: sending our kids in San Diego without a phone to school,

399
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Speaker 1: because what if someone in a van like stopped them

400
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Speaker 1: and punched them and drug them in our van? Were

401
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: we not crazy? But our philosophy was always, you know what,

402
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: our kids are a lot safer without a phone in

403
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Speaker 1: their pocket and with that knowledge that they have than

404
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 1: they are with a phone. In their pocket. Speak to

405
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Speaker 1: the parents. Why is it so dangerous? We think, Oh,

406
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Speaker 1: our kid is right there, just sitting in our home.

407
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 1: Our kid is fine, But the kid is not fine.

408
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Speaker 1: Why is that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really important thing. I think that the

410
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:51,120
Speaker 2: sense we have, this sense that the real world threats

411
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Speaker 2: are more dangerous to our children than the online world,

412
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Speaker 2: so that it would be more dangerous to send your

413
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Speaker 2: child to school riding a bike without a phone than

414
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Speaker 2: it would be to give them a phone. But I

415
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Speaker 2: think that in this day and age, predators have unfettered,

416
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Speaker 2: incredible access to children online that they have never had before.

417
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Speaker 2: People from all over the world, in foreign countries can

418
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Speaker 2: be reaching out to children so easily through social media.

419
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Speaker 2: And I'm sure you've seen these stories in the news

420
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Speaker 2: about these really tragic sex stortion cases where a young

421
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Speaker 2: boy is messaging with what he thinks is a fifteen

422
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Speaker 2: year old girl living down the street in his area,

423
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Speaker 2: and then she ends up getting enticing him to send

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Speaker 2: some type of compromising sexual picture, and then all of

425
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Speaker 2: a sudden, the conversation turns and it turns out that

426
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 2: this person is a predator who is now demanding money

427
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Speaker 2: or otherwise they're going to post this photo onto the Internet,

428
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Speaker 2: and it's tragic. I think Snapchat reported that they get

429
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Speaker 2: like ten thousand reports of sex stortion cases a month,

430
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Speaker 2: and that's just one app and those are the ones reported,

431
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Speaker 2: and so it is just happening at outrageous numbers. So

432
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Speaker 2: if we're thinking about what are the chances that my

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Speaker 2: child riding a bike to school, something happens to them

434
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Speaker 2: and they don't have a phone versus I'm giving them

435
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 2: a phone, and they could be receiving messages on a

436
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: daily basis from predators all over the world trying to

437
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,120
Speaker 2: reach out and exploit vulnerable young children who sadly they

438
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 2: are not as discerning yet. It is our job as parents.

439
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: We're trying to raise them into capable adults, but they

440
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 2: don't necessarily have the maturity or the self control or

441
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,439
Speaker 2: emotional regulation or reflection to be able to make the

442
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 2: wisest decisions online, and it can have really significant consequences,

443
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 2: like we've seen with sex stortion cases, or even to

444
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 2: a lesser degree, just posting a photo of themselves that

445
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 2: they really shouldn't have that now has a life of

446
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 2: its own online and is really impossible to ever completely

447
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 2: remove from the Internet, and so I do think there's

448
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: an illusion of safety that is just not there, that

449
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 2: actually handing a child a device is one of the

450
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: most dangerous things we can do as parents, even though

451
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: you think you're protecting them, they're in their room, they're

452
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: just down the hall. But the Internet today is just

453
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: a portal to an entire world of unfortunately a lot

454
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 2: of bad actors who have realized that it's an easy

455
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 2: place to pray on children. And so we have to

456
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: as parents be aware that even if our child's not

457
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 2: looking for it, even if you trust your child right

458
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: or you have a bad.

459
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: Child, like you truly have a good child.

460
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: All these stories are like a loving home, a great child,

461
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: but there are just bad actors out there really praying

462
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 2: on them, and so that is who we need to

463
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,880
Speaker 2: protect them from. It's not about trusting your child, it's

464
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 2: about recognizing what the online world looks like and it's

465
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: really it is unfortunately full of really dangerous people trying

466
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:44,439
Speaker 2: to do harmful things to our children.

467
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: And I know this conversation is kind of like a

468
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: sad wake up call, right, It's like parentsying, like why

469
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: did I listen to this podcast? Because now I'm responsible

470
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: for this information that I'd really rather not know so

471
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 1: that I can continue with my life. And so I

472
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: just want to say that there's that out there that

473
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: we're with we want to be with you, but just

474
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 1: be thinking about this and let this truth penetrate your

475
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: home because it really could save your children a lot

476
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: of harm. Roadblocks, Okay, it just seems so innocent, like

477
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: all my kid does is play Roadblocks, Like why that's

478
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: a good game, Like they're building things, and even that

479
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: you talk about, you know that, just give us a

480
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: short caution of just things that seem very innoculous like that,

481
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: like why is it still problematic? Yeah?

482
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: I think what parents don't necessarily realize is that all

483
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 2: of these apps today have like a social media component

484
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: built in because the apps have recognized that this is

485
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 2: a way that people will spend more time than on

486
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,199
Speaker 2: their app. But there's this kind of social engagement. And

487
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: so even these gaming apps like Roadblocks have direct messaging

488
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 2: features or features where you can interact with other players

489
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 2: in the game. And so I even had a mom

490
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 2: recently tell me that they thought their eight year old

491
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: daughter on a tablet was just doing some like language

492
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 2: learning game and she didn't realize that her daughter could

493
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 2: actually message like complete strangers online because there was some

494
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: type of friends component to the game, and she was

495
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: kind of horrified. She was like, this was just supposed

496
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 2: to be like a language learning, totally educational app. I

497
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 2: had no idea that there was this social media kind

498
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: of messaging component to it. And so I also mentioned

499
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 2: a sad version of like this you version Bible app

500
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: being used by again predators to try to share inappropriate

501
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: images with children on the app that parents thought their

502
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: child was just spending a lot of time reading the Bible.

503
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 2: It turns out there was this share of scripture feature

504
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: which allowed you to add pictures from your camera role

505
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: on the phone, and so then teens were sending naked

506
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 2: selfies of themselves to people and parents were horrified. They

507
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 2: had no idea. They're like, they were just in the

508
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: Bible app. How is this possible? I did let them

509
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: on the social media app. And so that comes back

510
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: to my point that the smartphone is just so hard

511
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: for a parent to see into what their child is doing,

512
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: and there's so many apps. How would you know? How

513
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: would you know everything about each app and know all

514
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: the aspects of it and be effectively able to see

515
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: into that. And so that is really why I try

516
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: to encourage in my book The Tech Exit that smartphone

517
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 2: devices and tablets with all these apps are just very

518
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 2: dangerous because unfortunately, even innoculous looking apps have dangerous aspects

519
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: and features to them that a parent might just not

520
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: be aware of.

521
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: And your kids someday they will grow up into adults

522
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: who have smartphones and use these apps. But if they

523
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: don't use them during childhood and their teenage years, then

524
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: when they do use them, they do have more of

525
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: that prefrontal cortex of development. They are able to make

526
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: more of the decisions of wait a minute, I don't

527
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: know this person in real life, I should probably not

528
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: engage with them, Like I feel like my college students

529
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: know that they understand that I don't know you, I

530
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 1: am not going to engage with you. But a child

531
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: who has been raised with a tablet and with little

532
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: avatars and little texts and little people and figures they

533
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: don't know like is this someone I know or I

534
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: don't know? They have no concept of that. And that

535
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: truly is why this tech exit is something too seriously

536
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: consider doing. Let's talk and the last moments we have

537
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 1: about phone free schools because that's the thing. It's like, oh, well,

538
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: we have to have the phone because our kids, all

539
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 1: the kids at the phones have school, and boy, isn't

540
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: it doing a great thing for learning. Our kids are

541
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: learning so much it's if at these phones at schools.

542
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: So how can we get behind this idea of no

543
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: phones in schools?

544
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would just encourage parents that you know, you

545
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 2: are the main constituent in the school, like you're sending

546
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: your children there, and that often parents raising their voices

547
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: particular to your school board members or even just your principal,

548
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 2: your school administrators, that this is a policy that you

549
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: want to see, that you don't want kids being on

550
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: phones to during the school day can be a tremendous

551
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 2: force for change in the right direction. Unfortunately, what I

552
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: often hear from educators and school board members is that

553
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: they want this policy. All the teachers know that this

554
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: is distracting for kids to have the phones during the day,

555
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: and parents are the ones wanting their child to have

556
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: phones or are complaining about the kind of change in policy.

557
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: And I think it mainly and I'm not blaming parents,

558
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: but I think it's mainly out of just some misunderstandings

559
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 2: on the part of parents, Like we were talking about

560
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 2: this kind of misconception that I need to be in

561
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: constant touch with my child to know that they're safe.

562
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: And I think we've had unfortunate incidents in this country

563
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: with school shootings or emergency situations that really scare parents

564
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: into thinking I wouldn't want my child to be in

565
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 2: that situation and not be able to get in touch

566
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 2: with them. And so I really try to kind of

567
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: piece apart some of these misconceptions on the parts of

568
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: parents that may make them resistant at first to a

569
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: phone free school policy to say that school safety experts

570
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: actually say that it's most safe for kids to not

571
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 2: have phones in an emergency situation, that these phones can

572
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 2: actually give away a child's location, or you know, they

573
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 2: would be trying to get in touch with a parent

574
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: and not listening to the instructions of first responders or

575
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: their teachers to try to keep them safe, and so

576
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: they're actually proving to be you know, phones actually proved

577
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: to be more distracting in an emergency situation than keeping

578
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: the child safe. And of course the school you want

579
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: let them to have protocols in place. Almost every school

580
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: I've talked to it's like the teacher always has a

581
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 2: cell phone, So if the children are in the classroom,

582
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: like the teacher has a phone. If there's any true emergency,

583
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: the parents can always reach out to the school office

584
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: if they need to get in touch with a child,

585
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 2: or you know, let them know a change of plans

586
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: for after school pick up. And that's the way I

587
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: grew up. I didn't have a phone in high school,

588
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: and my mom would call the main office if I

589
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: needed to know something and they'd relay the message or

590
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 2: vice versa. If I needed to get in touch, I

591
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: could go to the main office and make a phone call.

592
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: So I think reassuring parents that there will be way

593
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: for them to be in touch, but they don't need

594
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: to be in constant communication with their child. Actually, it's

595
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: really distracting for a child to be getting text messages

596
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 2: or calls during the school day, even from a parent.

597
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: And I just want to say, the school districts that

598
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: I've implemented these policies have just seven amazing results, not

599
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: just improvements in academic test scores, which I know we

600
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 2: as parents we care about our kids academics, but their

601
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 2: social engagement and interactions with their peers. That when we

602
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: allow phones to be part of the school environment, they

603
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: miss out on so much of that peer to peer

604
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 2: engagement and interactions with their teachers, and children are just

605
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: staring down at phones in the hallways instead of talking

606
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 2: to each other. And when they took the phones away,

607
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 2: the school districts just reports just this amazing flourishing of

608
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: just socializing among kids and creativity. They're like, oh, they're

609
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 2: now playing pickleball at recess or like the older kids

610
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: are organizing like themed days during lunch where they bring

611
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: in board games on a day on one lunch day,

612
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: or they bring in music another lunch day, and so

613
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 2: just that it's allowing so much more space for this

614
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 2: in person engagement that I think every parent wants for

615
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: their child. As you were just saying, Arlene, like real friendships,

616
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,239
Speaker 2: not these kind of fake friendships built on metrics and

617
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: likes and followers on social media. And so I would

618
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: just encourage parents, like, talk to your school district, talk

619
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: to your school board members. If they're already pursuing a

620
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 2: policy like be an encouragement and wind in their sales,

621
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: that this is going to be really positive change for

622
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: the kids. And if they are not yet considering one.

623
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: I do think that parents are really powerful voice that

624
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: school boards really do listen to. And so just yeah,

625
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: talking to your local school board member and raising your

626
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: voice even at your own school, to principals or school administrators.

627
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: I know, some principles just decided, you know, okay, the

628
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: school district isn't doing this yet, but we as a school,

629
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: we're just going to go phone free. And they've still

630
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: had amazing results just doing that as their own kind

631
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: of individual schools. So this is a really, I think,

632
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: a really winning solution, and it's really simple, even stepping

633
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: stone even as a parent, if you're not sure if

634
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: you can totally opt out of smartphones personally in your family,

635
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: if we can at least protect the school day from them,

636
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: it just creates a social environment for everyone that's engaging

637
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: and it kind of solves that collective action problem where

638
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 2: then no one's on the phones or social media during

639
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 2: the school day and they have to interact. And so

640
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: even the kids without smartphones, they're not left out because

641
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: everyone's off the phones during the school day. So it's

642
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: a really amazing solution.

643
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, think of it as an adult trying

644
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: to listen to a lecture while like checking all your

645
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: text messages the whole time, Like that does not work.

646
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: And you put that in a poor thirteen year old

647
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 1: that they're supposed to learn that way, and then that

648
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: they're supposed to, you know, just be on their phones,

649
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: Like how fun is that to be a school all

650
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: day just look down at your phone all day? No,

651
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: that's not fun. And the kids themselves, teenagers themselves now

652
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: are saying, you know, I wish this wasn't part of

653
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: our lives. Like we're hearing that more and more, and

654
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: we can help. And I'm going to have a link

655
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: in the show notes because you have on the website.

656
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: You know, you are part of the time technology, you

657
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: are heading up technology and human flourishing. And there's a

658
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: link there to help with your schools, like to like

659
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: how to plan this. So I'm going to put that

660
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: link in our show notes that people can find that.

661
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: The last thing I want to ask, you know, I

662
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 1: think people of faith, people in the church, we can

663
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: lead the way of helping kids be different. Just give

664
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: us that last word of encouragement that people of faith,

665
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: we instead of being the last ones to adopt this,

666
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: we could be the first ones to adopt this.

667
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I really try to encourage Christian parents like we

668
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: should be the ones leading the way. I think for

669
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: you know, several reasons, but one of the foremost just

670
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: being that we really know what life is for. We

671
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: know that life is for loving God and loving others,

672
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: the two great commandments. And I think if we step

673
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,440
Speaker 2: back and think about those and ask ourselves, is our

674
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: smartphones and social media are they helping us accomplish those

675
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: things for teaching those things to our children, Like is

676
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 2: the smartphone and social media teaching our children to love

677
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: God and love others? The answer really is know. In fact,

678
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: the design of these technologies really teach you to serve yourself.

679
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: It's all about you. It's all about your own entertainment,

680
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: your own kind of celebrity status or success. Like you

681
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 2: just promote yourself out there and you get how many likes?

682
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: You know, see how many likes you got. Whereas when

683
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 2: we take the phones away and we kind of pull

684
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: back the social media, we're actually able to teach our

685
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: kids the beauty of life, of loving God and loving others,

686
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: and that service is really this amazing antidote to anxiety

687
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: and to helping us kind of forget about ourselves and

688
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: lift our eyes up and serve others, first in our families,

689
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 2: but then in our communities around us. And I think

690
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: Christian parents also know that we're not supposed to look

691
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: like the world. We're supposed to live in the world,

692
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 2: but not be of the world, and that we're really

693
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: kind of strangers and exiles in this land on our

694
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: way to be home with our heavenly father. And so

695
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 2: I do think that we should just recognize that we're

696
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: never going to look quite like the culture, like we

697
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 2: should always feel a little different, a little bit out

698
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: of our skins, that we're not we're not trying to

699
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: do what the world does. That we recognize that we

700
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: should live differently than the world. And I think that

701
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: really does include in our technology choices that yes, our

702
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: children might be different, that they don't have smartphones, and

703
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: that's a good thing because it means that we're not

704
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 2: living like the world, but that we're recognizing the most

705
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: important and ultimate things that matter to our children's souls,

706
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: and that technology is interfering with that. And so you know,

707
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: we just win over all. The kind of brain research

708
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: and the harms from predators, and these are all very

709
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: valid and good reasons to exit technology as well. But

710
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 2: I think that for Christian parents there's even a deeper

711
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: and more ultimate reason, which is that we want to

712
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 2: protect our children's souls and we want them to love

713
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: God and love others, and that technology really just teaches

714
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 2: them to love themselves. It really celebrates vice rather than

715
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: virtue and can kind of harden their hearts towards the

716
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 2: things of the Lord. And so we don't want that

717
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: for our children, and so I would just encourage Christian

718
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: parents like we can lead the way, and just like

719
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: in so many other areas of life, I think we

720
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 2: can be a really compelling and beautiful example. That's what

721
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: first inspired me to write this book, really was I

722
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: saw a family living out the tech exit and their

723
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: kids were so engaging. They loved their parents, they played

724
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: well with each other, they loved life. Honestly, they were

725
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: great at talking to adults. And I was like, I

726
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: want my children to be like these kids, Like what

727
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: did you all do? And they said, one of the

728
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: most important things we did is we didn't give them

729
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: phones or iPads or social media. They just they play outside,

730
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: they play with each other, and that was such a

731
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: beautiful inspiring example to me as a young parent. And

732
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: so I think Christian families engaged in the real world,

733
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 2: loving each other, living together, loving life is going to

734
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 2: be a hugely compelling witness even to the world around us,

735
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: and hopefully we'll lead others to join us in that

736
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: in that lifestyle.

737
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: And I know many of us be moan, like why

738
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: do I live in this technological age? It's so difficult,

739
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: But honestly we could be like, Wow, this is such

740
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 1: a unique time to be able to show the world

741
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: this is what health looks like, this is what life

742
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: looks like, and really point people to Jesus by our

743
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 1: kids not being constantly on tech. How can people find

744
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: out more about you, Claire and about this book, The

745
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: Tech Exit?

746
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you for asking, Arlene. Yes. So the book

747
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 2: you can find at the tech exit dot com. It's

748
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: available through all major booksellers and you can find more

749
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 2: about the book there. I also write a substack It's

750
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: Clairemarrele dot substack dot com, and so I will be

751
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 2: posting continuing to post resources there for parents, articles, the

752
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: latest reports I've written or articles I've put out. Just

753
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: want that to be a helpful place for parents to

754
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 2: find resources like you mentioned like the going phone free

755
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: at your school type thing, and so you can follow

756
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: my work there. And then you also mentioned the work

757
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: I've done at the Esseics and Public Policy Center. If

758
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 2: you go to EPPC dot org, you can also find

759
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 2: my scholar page has everything I've ever written. The Tech

760
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 2: Project page has all the resources right there. And so

761
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 2: those be the three places I would direct your listeners too, And.

762
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: We'll have all these links in the show notes. And

763
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: now you all listeners, you know you have a policy

764
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: person you can be praying for. Be praying for Claire

765
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: that God will use her in mighty ways and help

766
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: these laws come into place to protect kids. Thanks so much, Claire.

767
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Arlene.

768
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: Maybe you've been listening and you're like, yes, we are

769
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 1: going to take the steps and make this tech exit,

770
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: But how in the world am I going to get

771
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: my kids on board? How am I going to get

772
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: my spouse on board, grandma and grandpa on board? Get

773
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: this book, The Tech Exit by Claire Morrell, because it

774
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: will give you so much research, so many facts that

775
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 1: it will really help you make a compelling case to

776
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: everyone around you that this is a good idea. So

777
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 1: the tech Exit you can get that at the tech

778
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: exit dot com anywhere books are sold. Those links are

779
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: in the show notes to EPPC dot org what Claire

780
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: talked about, and also her substack that is in the

781
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: show notes. And remember you can watch our little documentary

782
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: screen kids. Show it to your kids. It's just fifteen

783
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: minutes long. There's a kid's version of it, and let

784
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: them see that there are other kids and teenagers and

785
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 1: what they have to say about not being addicted to phones.

786
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: And you know, you might think it's hard to exit,

787
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: but you know what, it's going to be a lot

788
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: harder to stay on the path that you're in, allowing

789
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: your child to just get really steeped in addictive behaviors, pornography,

790
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: a lot of despair, shaming, suicide, you understand, So keeping

791
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: on this path, just ask yourself, you know, is that

792
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: worse than making the exit? I encourage you, We're not

793
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: going to take it. Let's kick that tech out in September.

794
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: Remember you can do this, and please forward this to

795
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: someone in your life who needs this encouragement, who is

796
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: maybe getting a bit desperate with their screens, or please

797
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: forward this to your friends who have young kids so

798
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: that they can take a good path from the very beginning.

799
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: Remember you don't have to come from a happy home

800
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: to create one. You two can have a happy home