Speaker 1: Life Audio.
Speaker 2: Come to the Praying Christian Women podcast. I am Alana
Speaker 2: here with Jamie.
Speaker 1: How are you.
Speaker 3: I'm doing great.
Speaker 2: I am excited and terrified because you chose a topic
Speaker 2: for us that I have no idea where we're going,
Speaker 2: but I know it's going to be really fascinating and
Speaker 2: I think that it is absolutely worth discussing. And to
Speaker 2: be fair, I think this is a topic that a
Speaker 2: lot of Christian podcasters would not be willing to touch.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about witchcraft.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm going to give you background on kind
Speaker 4: of where this came from. So I heard someone and
Speaker 4: I don't remember where, don't remember what the context was,
Speaker 4: but it stuck with me. Someone said, some kinds of
Speaker 4: prayer and prayer in air quotes, some kinds of prayer
Speaker 4: can actually be a form of witchcraft, meaning Christians who
Speaker 4: are doing certain types of prayer in air quotes. It's
Speaker 4: witchcraft masquerading as prayer, and it's infiltrated the Christian community.
Speaker 4: And so that my question started there of Okay, can
Speaker 4: prayer in a Christian context be witchcraft in disguise? And
Speaker 4: if so, absolutely, we want to know, and we want
Speaker 4: to know why and how and how to identify it
Speaker 4: and how not to do it right.
Speaker 3: So that's kind of where that came from.
Speaker 2: That No, it's going to be really fascinating, and I
Speaker 2: am excited because I don't. I sort of made you
Speaker 2: stop telling me your thoughts where this episode was going
Speaker 2: to go because I wanted to experience it fresh.
Speaker 1: But I am also really.
Speaker 2: Intrigued, and I have been for a very long time
Speaker 2: at the sociological history of people being named, which is, so,
Speaker 2: let's the practice of like evil spells or demonic worship
Speaker 2: or things that are spiritually uns safe and sinful. But
Speaker 2: this idea that a woman who knew how to make
Speaker 2: a tea that could make somebody feel better after having
Speaker 2: a miscarriage might get killed because people claim she was
Speaker 2: a witch. Right, I am really intrigued at that interspection,
Speaker 2: because I believe that the religious powers that were and
Speaker 2: maybe be sometimes we're afraid of women, specifically who had
Speaker 2: unorthodox interpretations of scripture or philosophies on life, And what
Speaker 2: better way to get rid of them than to convince
Speaker 2: a mob they're a witch and burnament mistake. So we're
Speaker 2: going to be We're going to be getting into some
Speaker 2: really interesting territory I am sure.
Speaker 4: Well, just to kind of give an overview of what
Speaker 4: we're talking about, because when I hear the word witchcraft,
Speaker 4: the first thing that comes to my mind is, you know,
Speaker 4: double double toil and trouble, you know, cald and burn whatever,
Speaker 4: fire burn and cauldron bubble, like you know, women standing
Speaker 4: around with pointy hats over potions and stuff. But in
Speaker 4: the biblical worldview that we're reading from, witchcraft wasn't magic necessarily.
Speaker 4: I mean, it entailed elements of that, but it was
Speaker 4: really at its core a rebellion against God's authority and
Speaker 4: trying to There are a few different things that it entailed,
Speaker 4: like trying to control outcomes spiritually or in some way
Speaker 4: manipulating outcomes with your human abilities, or by tapping into
Speaker 4: darker spiritual forces instead of trusting God. Seeking hidden knowledge.
Speaker 4: That was another thing, which involved wanting to know the future,
Speaker 4: wanting to know secret knowledge that was forbidden by God,
Speaker 4: appealing to other spirit beings so that would entail spirits, demons,
Speaker 4: the dead, false gods, the rulers and principalities that are
Speaker 4: not God, and so all of those things. Divination, which
Speaker 4: is very interesting because I always think of like divination
Speaker 4: in the carnal sense is, you know, like reading tea
Speaker 4: leaves stuff like that, but also trying to predict or
Speaker 4: uncover the future with different supernatural means like pagan casting
Speaker 4: of lots, reading omens or scigns, astrology like practices. And
Speaker 4: this is kind of like where we get the command
Speaker 4: in Exodus twenty to eighteen, which says you may not
Speaker 4: permit a sorceress to live. So you know, these are
Speaker 4: all different ways that can kind of be like lumped
Speaker 4: into that witchcraft category. And so we're not talking about
Speaker 4: prayers that are like casting bells necessarily. We're talking about
Speaker 4: using prayer as a means of basically taking a shortcut
Speaker 4: to a road that God has not intended us to shortcut.
Speaker 4: And huh so, yeah, so that's just kind of a
Speaker 4: basic overview, and there are different categories of witchcraft that
Speaker 4: kind of fall into those, but we can talk about
Speaker 4: that too. But you've got your mediums, you've got spiritists,
Speaker 4: you've got necromancers, idolators.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, Well I didn't come up with it
Speaker 2: just her fun question because I wasn't exactly sure where
Speaker 2: we're going with this, but I do have a joke.
Speaker 1: Are you ready for it. Yes, you might have heard
Speaker 1: this one. I think it's hilarious.
Speaker 2: And my child did me a disservice because she gave
Speaker 2: me like a hearty belly laugh when I told it
Speaker 2: to him, So I think it's probably like a lot
Speaker 2: funnier than it is. Okay. A woman stannstairs in the
Speaker 2: living room and she shouts up to her husband and
Speaker 2: she says, Honey, do you ever get like a stabbing
Speaker 2: pain right at the base of your skull, like somebody's
Speaker 2: got a voodoo doll of you and they're just jabbing
Speaker 2: it with needles And he shouts down no, And then
Speaker 2: in like a half a minute later, she calls up,
Speaker 2: what about now?
Speaker 1: Okay, good you. I think you gave me at least
Speaker 1: that time.
Speaker 3: That's a good one. I think that's pretty funny.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, before we dive deeper in, could you open
Speaker 2: this up in some prayer.
Speaker 4: Yes, God, we just pray that you would be present
Speaker 4: today during this conversation. We pray that you would open
Speaker 4: our eyes, that you would help us to just be
Speaker 4: open minded and not not afraid to dive into this
Speaker 4: kind of unorthodox topic, and just help us to be
Speaker 4: able to pray with more purity and more single heartedness
Speaker 4: as a result of thinking about these things. And we
Speaker 4: just pray that you would open our eyes to anyways
Speaker 4: that we are falling into traps of praying in ways
Speaker 4: that are not healthy and not scriptural and biblical and
Speaker 4: not glorifying to you.
Speaker 3: Amen.
Speaker 1: Amen.
Speaker 2: So I did think of it just for fun. Were
Speaker 2: there any witches in movies or anything that you were
Speaker 2: super scared of growing up? Oh?
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Wizard of Oz, it was the witch and
Speaker 4: the monkey beats then totally freaked me out as a.
Speaker 1: She she was a scary witch. Have you seen the clip?
Speaker 2: Mister Rogers invited the actress on into his home because
Speaker 2: so many kids were scared of her that he invited
Speaker 2: her to come dressed as herself and like, hey, look,
Speaker 2: I'm a nice woman, and I.
Speaker 1: Put on a costume.
Speaker 2: And then she put on her her costume and gave
Speaker 2: the little laugh, and it helped kids to realize, oh,
Speaker 2: like she's she herself is not evil, She's just pretending
Speaker 2: to be. What's really cute about the Wizard of Oz
Speaker 2: is when my kids were little, our Youngoss maybe around
Speaker 2: three or four, and so he could follow the story
Speaker 2: kind of you know, like enough where he recognized the
Speaker 2: characters but didn't like he couldn't tell you, you know, beginning,
Speaker 2: middle and end and all of that. He called the
Speaker 2: witch green guy, and he didn't realize it was a woman.
Speaker 2: And I think it's adorable because I think there was
Speaker 2: something like very cute in his worldview, that like only
Speaker 2: men could be that mean and scary.
Speaker 1: So I thought it was pretty cute.
Speaker 2: That is cute green She was green guy.
Speaker 3: That is too funny.
Speaker 2: I was the most scared of the witches from Snow
Speaker 2: White and Sleeping Beauty, And I was gonna really tell
Speaker 2: you which was more, probably Sleeping Beauty because she turns
Speaker 2: into the dragon, right.
Speaker 4: I don't remember, but I just know the one with
Speaker 4: the apple that was Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 1: That was Sleeping Beauty.
Speaker 3: No ye, snow white, white Apple.
Speaker 1: And she is scary when she turns into the old woman.
Speaker 3: She's scary. The old woman part was scary for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we hit on like everybody in our age,
Speaker 2: rackets three scares witches.
Speaker 1: Most like I would agree.
Speaker 2: So let's start with what we absolutely fundamentally know to
Speaker 2: be wrong and sinful. And you already labeled some of it,
Speaker 2: but I want to make it super clear. So anything
Speaker 2: that's communicating with the dead or supernatural beings that are
Speaker 2: not God the Father, God the Son, and God the
Speaker 2: Holy Spirit. I think that in my brain, those are
Speaker 2: like the like Tebya and Fiddler on the Roof. There
Speaker 2: is no other hand, right, Like, there is no way
Speaker 2: to look at the Bible.
Speaker 1: And say, oh, but what about this.
Speaker 2: So if it has anything to do with conjuring up
Speaker 2: the dead or praying to a spiritual thing that is
Speaker 2: not spirit.
Speaker 4: Guide, or relying on the spirit guide for information, I
Speaker 4: would include praying to angels, which is something that has
Speaker 4: crept into the church and people think that's cool and
Speaker 4: that you know, I mean, do I believe that angels
Speaker 4: are real?
Speaker 3: Absolutely do.
Speaker 4: I believe that we have guardian angels, probably based on
Speaker 4: what we read in scripture, and that they're everywhere doing
Speaker 4: God's bidding and they love us and they minister to us.
Speaker 4: But it is sinful to pray to angels. And I
Speaker 4: think we need to make that really clear because I
Speaker 4: think of all of the ways that we could stray
Speaker 4: into the realm of what we would now consider witchcraft,
Speaker 4: I think praying.
Speaker 3: To angels would be in that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it feels innocuous on a level, most of
Speaker 2: us would say that if you're saying a prayer to
Speaker 2: the devil, then you're probably not doing something that a
Speaker 2: Christian should condone, right, But yeah, basically, if you are
Speaker 2: praying to an angel or a faint or your dead
Speaker 2: grandmother who was an amazing prayer warrior and of Jesus,
Speaker 2: like I believe that those things are very forbidden in Scripture.
Speaker 4: At the basic level of the definition of trying to
Speaker 4: control outcomes spiritually, I think a lot of things fall
Speaker 4: under that, and I think.
Speaker 2: That's what prayer is, though, so I need to hear
Speaker 2: your definition better.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, So trying to control outcomes spiritually apart from God,
Speaker 4: so it can get probably gray in some areas. But
Speaker 4: if you're if you're trying to control an outcome apart
Speaker 4: from God, so I would put manifesting in its pure
Speaker 4: detached from God for sure. If you're I'm just basically
Speaker 4: trying to manifest something without any regard to God's power,
Speaker 4: you know what, I think what I'm going to do
Speaker 4: is back up and I'm going to say that if
Speaker 4: you are viewing prayer as a way to wield power
Speaker 4: yourself instead of as a way to open the floodgates
Speaker 4: of God's power coming into earth to bring His kingdom
Speaker 4: come and as will be done on earth as it
Speaker 4: is in heaven, or even approaching God to have his
Speaker 4: power intervene in a way that you are praying and
Speaker 4: petitioning and begging and knocking down the door. Yes, you're
Speaker 4: trying to control an outcome because you want something, But
Speaker 4: if you're approaching it from if I just muster up
Speaker 4: enough within myself to manifest this as opposed to if
Speaker 4: I just knock and seek and keep on praying, then
Speaker 4: maybe God, will you know, make this happen.
Speaker 3: Do you see the difference that I'm.
Speaker 2: I do see the difference I do, And I'm not
Speaker 2: sure I agree with you? Okay, I want you have
Speaker 2: to say, yeah, I think that this idea that I
Speaker 2: mentioned at the beginning of the burning of witches, and
Speaker 2: let's let's use it as witches with a small w
Speaker 2: of basically just a woman with spiritual independence outside of
Speaker 2: the religious powers of her day. I feel like the
Speaker 2: devil doesn't want those kind of women, and the power
Speaker 2: hungry church didn't want that kind of women. And I
Speaker 2: think that what you're describing as the fear of being
Speaker 2: a quote witch and in certain cases be used to
Speaker 2: keep us praying small.
Speaker 3: Yes, I definitely see that.
Speaker 4: I still think though, that if you're trying to control
Speaker 4: things through your power and not God, not God's power,
Speaker 4: it's I think that's why I was saying, I'm going
Speaker 4: to back it up. I think I'm backing it up
Speaker 4: to your intention and who you're because I see what
Speaker 4: you're saying, and you're right that idea has in my
Speaker 4: life paralyzed me because I feel like, well, first I
Speaker 4: have to know what God wants before I can pray
Speaker 4: with power. Yeah, and that is not That's not what
Speaker 4: I'm talking about though, for sure, And I'm glad you
Speaker 4: brought that up, because that's not what I definitely don't
Speaker 4: think that's true. I think it is when we believe
Speaker 4: that we control our own destiny by mustering up enough
Speaker 4: and we sort of tag God onto it, that's when
Speaker 4: it becomes sinful.
Speaker 3: Is that a better way to say it.
Speaker 2: That's I can seed to all of that. And I
Speaker 2: do feel like these types of mine or world views,
Speaker 2: is what I'm trying to say, have crept into the
Speaker 2: church and into our theology and into our prayer lives.
Speaker 2: I think, however, some people, for the sake of theological purity,
Speaker 2: are going to throw out too many babies with too
Speaker 2: much bathbone it. And you've got to be so discerning
Speaker 2: to know. Like, so, what I would hate is for
Speaker 2: somebody to listen to this and all of a sudden
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, no, I've been praying way too boldly.
Speaker 2: God must be so mad at me. I need to
Speaker 2: get back into my humble little corner. I need to
Speaker 2: stay in my lane.
Speaker 4: No, And I don't, yeah, definitely don't want that to happen.
Speaker 4: What would you say is the I mean, I would
Speaker 4: say the litmus test is who do you attribute power to?
Speaker 2: Yes, are you praying to God? Or are you praying
Speaker 2: to divine power within yourself? Or are you praying to
Speaker 2: either a heavenly or evil or deceased entity. And if
Speaker 2: it's answer is not God, then you're doing it wrong well.
Speaker 4: And I think one of the ways that kind of
Speaker 4: illustrates what I'm thinking of is the like power of
Speaker 4: words movement within certain Christian denominations and segments can get
Speaker 4: into this where it puts the emphasis on the words
Speaker 4: alone yes and tax got on as an afterthought, and
Speaker 4: it's like, you control your destiny by saying these words.
Speaker 4: And again you words have power for sure, And I
Speaker 4: think there is a fine line between, like we talked
Speaker 4: about in our last episode, choosing your words carefully, making
Speaker 4: sure that you're speaking life, that you're you know, if
Speaker 4: you're going to have a self fulfilling prophecy, let it
Speaker 4: be a good one and not a limiting one for sure.
Speaker 4: But I think when we put the focus on the
Speaker 4: words above and beyond God, then.
Speaker 3: But it's tough.
Speaker 4: It's tough because it's tough not to abuse it, and
Speaker 4: it's tough not to be so afraid of words and
Speaker 4: the power of words that God tells us, you know,
Speaker 4: like as a man speaks, so he is right and
Speaker 4: so's there's a balancing act to be had, and I
Speaker 4: think we have to be careful not to overdo either side.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's talk about the dangers of both extremes
Speaker 2: so that people can identify which extremely you're more likely
Speaker 2: to fall into if you resonate with the picture of
Speaker 2: somebody shaming you, Like if you were to pray as
Speaker 2: boldly as you can imagine, and you go to people
Speaker 2: or yourself or God wagging fingers and saying who do
Speaker 2: you think you are? Then you probably don't need to
Speaker 2: worry about airing on the side of dabbling in witchcraft,
Speaker 2: needs to err on the side of growing more faith
Speaker 2: and claiming what truly is yours in Christ. If you
Speaker 2: lean the other way and to the point where everything
Speaker 2: you do has fear tacked onto it, because oh, if
Speaker 2: I say this one thing, then you know God's going
Speaker 2: to curse me, Or you know, I forgot to say
Speaker 2: bless you to my nephew and now the devil's going
Speaker 2: to steal his soul. Right, if you're living in fear
Speaker 2: of all of this, and I think that's an indication
Speaker 2: you've gotten to the way other extreme or and this
Speaker 2: is the only one that I think would be hardest
Speaker 2: for people to recognize in themselves, and that is if
Speaker 2: it's only about you and your pride, because I can
Speaker 2: definitely picture who you're talking about. And no, I don't
Speaker 2: have like an individual in mind, but I can picture
Speaker 2: the personality of somebody who will pray and who will
Speaker 2: sound like a genuine faith filled, spirit filled prayer warrior,
Speaker 2: but their focuses on themselves. So I think that maybe
Speaker 2: a good litmus test to know if you're erring in
Speaker 2: that extreme. It's almost like, if this prayer that you're
Speaker 2: boldly praying doesn't come true, what happens in your brain?
Speaker 2: And if it's a surrender, if it's oh, I guess
Speaker 2: God had something even better in store, Okay, that's an
Speaker 2: indication that you're still giving God the glory even if
Speaker 2: it's disappointment. If it's like, oh, wow, I really wanted
Speaker 2: this to happen. I will surrender to God's will, but man,
Speaker 2: this sucks, Okay, that shows humility. If it's oh, no,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna look so bad because I prayed for this
Speaker 2: thing and it didn't come true. Or if it's God,
Speaker 2: that's not fair because I believed in this. I think
Speaker 2: those are the mindsets that would show that you are
Speaker 2: praying in human power, not divine power.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I can also see putting others on a pedestal as
Speaker 4: being a form of witchcraft in idolatry. When let's say
Speaker 4: you have someone that you consider a mentor and I
Speaker 4: actually got into like kind of crossing the line on this,
Speaker 4: I would say where I I almost viewed this person
Speaker 4: as kind of like my shortcut to God, like.
Speaker 1: Like I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 4: As a and and this person was very insightful and perceptive,
Speaker 4: and when she prayed over me, I took it as
Speaker 4: gospel and I almost went to her like a medium.
Speaker 4: And I don't mean that in a literal sense, but
Speaker 4: what I mean is I almost was like, this person
Speaker 4: is speaking the word of God over me, and I
Speaker 4: really put her on a pedestal and went to her
Speaker 4: for it was almost like like, Okay, I got to
Speaker 4: go to this person to hear from God, and that
Speaker 4: it's dangerous. That's basically going to someone as a medium
Speaker 4: between you and God. And we don't have that Jesus
Speaker 4: as our high priest, and you know, we have the
Speaker 4: Holy Spirit. Not to say again that you want to
Speaker 4: take it too far and not have mentors, not have
Speaker 4: people that you feel like are mature and have a good,
Speaker 4: good relationship with God and speak words of truth in life.
Speaker 4: But it's where is your heart is that person? Are
Speaker 4: you feeling like you have to go through that person
Speaker 4: to get to God or not?
Speaker 3: And I think I think fear.
Speaker 2: It can, and I think fear can be a pretty
Speaker 2: good litmus test. It's just because on the one hand, yeah,
Speaker 2: I have mentors, and even now, if I'm about to
Speaker 2: make a big decision, I'd be like, I would love
Speaker 2: to chat with Becca about this, because I know she's
Speaker 2: going to ask me the right questions to help me
Speaker 2: to see clearly there's a difference between that, and so
Speaker 2: then it would actually be foolish for me. If God
Speaker 2: is given me a person like that in my life,
Speaker 2: it would not be the smartest for me to make
Speaker 2: a big decision if I had the opportunity to not,
Speaker 2: you know, it would be foolish me to say, well,
Speaker 2: I can't ask Beck about this because I don't want to.
Speaker 2: I don't want to rely too much on her for
Speaker 2: spiritual guidance. This has to be between God and me.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, I think where you know that
Speaker 2: it's gone too far is if it becomes fear based,
Speaker 2: if it's if you're paralyzed. Oh sorry, Jamie, I don't
Speaker 2: know if I can record with you today or not
Speaker 2: because I haven't talked to Becca. That's a problem, right,
Speaker 2: or you know, yeah. I think really a huge litmus
Speaker 2: test in so many parts of our spiritual life, and
Speaker 2: especially in this one, is your primary motivation fear And
Speaker 2: if so, that's an indication that you're off balance. So
Speaker 2: if it's, I am so glad that God has given
Speaker 2: sobody with wisdom that I can talk to, and I
Speaker 2: believe that at times He will use this person to
Speaker 2: ask me questions and in that process I will discover
Speaker 2: God's will. I think that's wonderful. I wouldn't worry about
Speaker 2: that from a spiritual standpoint. Where it becomes worrisome is
Speaker 2: if ooh, I'm so scared that if I don't pray
Speaker 2: before my meeting with Becca this afternoon, she might tell
Speaker 2: me something wrong and God's skinned, you know. Or oh,
Speaker 2: I actually can't make this decision because my next call
Speaker 2: with my coach isn't for three more weeks, so sorry,
Speaker 2: you know. Then it becomes fear based, and I can't
Speaker 2: think of much good that comes out of fear based
Speaker 2: decisions in the Christian life.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the idea though, of being able to know the
Speaker 2: future and what some people might call divination or you know,
Speaker 2: there are bajillion words for it. I mean, in the Bible,
Speaker 2: there were prophets who would speak to future events. You
Speaker 2: and I have talked about sometimes like God giving you
Speaker 2: a little bit of a head step. So where do
Speaker 2: those kinds of things fall into this, and how do
Speaker 2: you know if this is something that's verging on spiritually
Speaker 2: dangerous territory.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think like with the prophets, they were
Speaker 4: always clear who was telling them these things, that it
Speaker 4: was God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and
Speaker 4: in that realm. I always thought it was kind of
Speaker 4: funny that, like the way you discern whether someone is
Speaker 4: from God or not is whether the thing comes to pass.
Speaker 4: But you know, basically, I would say if you are
Speaker 4: seeking to know the future from someone other than God himself,
Speaker 4: I mean, I've heard of people speaking prophetic words over people,
Speaker 4: and the Bible says don't treat prophecies with contempt, test everything.
Speaker 4: So I hold that it's possible that someone could speak
Speaker 4: a prophetic word over you and say this is from
Speaker 4: the Lord. He said, you know this is going to happen.
Speaker 4: I would say tread very lightly there if it's not solicited.
Speaker 4: If you're going to someone to find out the future,
Speaker 4: and you're soliciting their advice, most people think of that
Speaker 4: as going to like a future fortune.
Speaker 3: Tellig teller, medium or what.
Speaker 4: I don't know the proper terms for all of them,
Speaker 4: but that's not coming from God. And I honestly don't
Speaker 4: see any evidence in the Bible, aside from prophets who
Speaker 4: were already established and known to be hearing from God.
Speaker 4: There were kings that would say is this going to happen?
Speaker 4: Or is this going to happen?
Speaker 3: But I don't know.
Speaker 4: As us for us everyday Christians, I don't know that
Speaker 4: that would be a healthy thing to do, to go
Speaker 4: to someone and say, what does God say about the future.
Speaker 4: I don't see a precedent there because I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think that's very dangerous. But the bottom line is
Speaker 4: who is that information coming from? If it's coming, who
Speaker 4: are you seeking it out from? And if someone is
Speaker 4: coming to you with future knowledge, I would test it
Speaker 4: heavily and be very cautiously skeptical, shrewd as serpents, I
Speaker 4: would say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I think that makes a lot
Speaker 2: of sense, and I think it does a good job
Speaker 2: like not saying, well, God never speaks about the future anymore,
Speaker 2: or anybody who pretends to know about future events is
Speaker 2: of the devil. I don't believe either of those are true.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's not a common thing. It's not something
Speaker 2: to go and seek out. I absolutely have had times
Speaker 2: for God has told me that something is going to
Speaker 2: happen and I know that it is from the Lord. However,
Speaker 2: those aren't things I go and seek out. They are there,
Speaker 2: So to me, it's kind of like I don't need
Speaker 2: to go to a you know, Christian fortune teller to
Speaker 2: know this. If God wants me to know something, I'm
Speaker 2: going to know. I also think it'd be totally fine,
Speaker 2: Like if there was I could totally see coming to
Speaker 2: you and be like, Jamie, I feel like God's told
Speaker 2: me this thing about my kid. I really want to
Speaker 2: pray with you about it, because like this picture that
Speaker 2: God gave me is really worrisome. This is a hypothetical,
Speaker 2: but I could totally see that is this just a
Speaker 2: mother's anxiety or is this something that God is putting
Speaker 2: on my heart through the Holy Spirit as a prophecy
Speaker 2: And you won't know that until you have some prayer
Speaker 2: and praying with somebody else can be so, but it's
Speaker 2: got to be the right person, you know. Some people
Speaker 2: are so closed off to any of this that they
Speaker 2: would be the right person to ask for prayer for that.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's really interesting because on the one hand,
Speaker 2: I sometimes wonder we talk a lot about not getting superstitious.
Speaker 2: I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as a
Speaker 2: non superstitious human though, or if some people we just
Speaker 2: call thing superstitions because they're not what we believe, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like some people are superstitious about
Speaker 2: having to say in Jesus' name Amen, or you know,
Speaker 2: I think some people are gonna get feathers offold. I
Speaker 2: think some people treat the sinner's prayer superstitiously.
Speaker 1: It's you say.
Speaker 2: These magic words and then no matter what, your salvation
Speaker 2: is secure forever. And I do not believe that God
Speaker 2: is up there like choosing every day. If she died today,
Speaker 2: would I save or or not? I don't believe that
Speaker 2: that is up for question. But I also don't think
Speaker 2: that it's as simple as getting a four year old
Speaker 2: to chance some words, you know, I mean talk about
Speaker 2: witchcraft and spells.
Speaker 1: I think it so.
Speaker 2: All I'm saying is I am open to the possibility
Speaker 2: that we are all so superstitious and some of us
Speaker 2: just don't know it, because, yes, because.
Speaker 4: We're blind to it, because it's our culture, it's our
Speaker 4: Christian culture.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I also want to just give a word of warning.
Speaker 4: So I recently heard one of the podcasts I was
Speaker 4: listening to about like Big Church Scandal. There was a
Speaker 4: guy in a church movement who had these huge, basically
Speaker 4: auditoriums of people, and he was claiming to be able
Speaker 4: to know about people before, like without them having told
Speaker 4: him anything about themselves. And he was basically acting like
Speaker 4: a medium, only with slapping God on it. So he
Speaker 4: would have people come and say you live on is
Speaker 4: there someone here who's name is starts with a J.
Speaker 4: I'm thinking of Jerry and they live on some kind
Speaker 4: of road. I'm picturing a black bird. And someone will
Speaker 4: be like, oh, my name's Jerry and I live on
Speaker 4: Crow Lane or whatever.
Speaker 3: And he was doing this.
Speaker 4: He was literally going on Facebook and getting information about people.
Speaker 3: He's getting the list hilarious ahead of time.
Speaker 4: Well, the sad thing is people that fell for it
Speaker 4: were like, how did I fall for this? He was
Speaker 4: literally going on Facebook, like I wanted so much to
Speaker 4: receive a word from God because of something difficult I
Speaker 4: was going through. And so just a word of caution
Speaker 4: please if someone My thought is, what why is he
Speaker 4: doing that stuff?
Speaker 3: Like you know?
Speaker 4: And then he would say, Oh, God loves you. God
Speaker 4: gave me that information to note to let me know
Speaker 4: that He sees you and so that you feel loved.
Speaker 4: That seems like a good thing. But just be really
Speaker 4: careful when anyone, even a Christian claiming to know God,
Speaker 4: claiming to be hearing from God, says something, whether it's
Speaker 4: telling the future, prophesying the end of the world, which
Speaker 4: I mean that's its own thing, prophesying when something is
Speaker 4: going to happen, Just you know, really test everything, especially
Speaker 4: in today's day and age.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sometimes it's laughable. Sometimes it's really sad.
Speaker 2: I think that if anybody listening has fallen prey to
Speaker 2: like a spiritual scam like that, I think what I
Speaker 2: would want to tell you is, hey, you're not. You
Speaker 2: shouldn't feel ashamed, like shame on that person for being
Speaker 2: a Charlatan, right, And it is a gift and a
Speaker 2: privilege that you aren't so skeptical that you didn't see
Speaker 2: it coming, right.
Speaker 1: That shows that.
Speaker 3: Your just does and trusting.
Speaker 2: And I would go so far as to say that
Speaker 2: if you are hungry for a word from the Lord,
Speaker 2: God knows what you need. God has spoken to people.
Speaker 2: My favorite story I have two funny stories about this.
Speaker 2: I knew one guy who got saved at a Michael
Speaker 2: Jackson concert because the song You Were Not Alone touched
Speaker 2: him so much and he truly felt like God was
Speaker 2: singing it to him. I also know of somebody who
Speaker 2: got saved reading the Koran, and I forget the story behind,
Speaker 2: like as saved as a Christian, but it was a
Speaker 2: verse from the Qoran that somehow led him to the Bible.
Speaker 2: So God can use anything, So shame on the charlatan
Speaker 2: like shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. And this is coming
Speaker 2: from somebody who doesn't like shame people.
Speaker 1: But you should not be ashamed. And if God happens.
Speaker 2: To speak to you through that.
Speaker 1: That's okay too.
Speaker 2: God has spoken to me through musicals written by non Christians.
Speaker 2: God has spoken to me through paintings painted by non Christians.
Speaker 2: So why couldn't God, I'd have spoken to you through
Speaker 2: a Charlatan. It's sad to come to terms with, but
Speaker 2: I just want to leave that for people, and you
Speaker 2: know it is, it's it's so laughable. It's kind of
Speaker 2: like horoscopes that are so vague that like you can't
Speaker 2: be wrong, you know, to cookies too. Yeah, So I
Speaker 2: want to close with just a quick discussion about things like,
Speaker 2: let's let's do fortune cookies. My husband will not participate
Speaker 2: when we go to a Chinese restaurant and are given
Speaker 2: fortune cookies. He chooses not to participate because to him,
Speaker 2: that's too close to horoscopes, which is too close to astrology,
Speaker 2: which is too close to witchcraft. My thought is, these
Speaker 2: are fun and silly, and we always do the with
Speaker 2: the chainsaw afterwards.
Speaker 1: Do you know I like that? No, I view that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you take whatever it says on the fortune
Speaker 2: cookie and you add the words with the chainsaw, so
Speaker 2: it will say you will you will achieve your dreams
Speaker 2: with a chainsaw or something. So I believe certain things
Speaker 2: are totally innocuous. I believe certain things are extremely sinful,
Speaker 2: and then I believe that there are some things that
Speaker 2: are probably dangerous to be treated with caution, that certain
Speaker 2: people definitely should completely stay away from. What's your opinion
Speaker 2: on how to know which of those categories something falls into?
Speaker 2: So totally innocuous, that's how I treat a fortune cookie. Okay,
Speaker 2: totally sinful like praying to the dead, and then the
Speaker 2: stuff that is potentially dangerous that some people should absolutely
Speaker 2: not participate in. Like when some of my dad's great
Speaker 2: great aunts and uncles passed, he would not go to
Speaker 2: Buddhist funerals, whereas other people might say, I know that
Speaker 2: I am not Buddhist, so this doesn't bother me.
Speaker 4: That's tough, and I would say that it's possible, like
Speaker 4: you said, that one thing would be right for one
Speaker 4: person and not for another. The Bible even says that.
Speaker 4: But like, you know, it's like meat sacrifice to idols.
Speaker 4: If you know that that meat that was sacrificed to
Speaker 4: idols is in itself just a bunch of you know,
Speaker 4: a newspapers, you know, Yeah that basically, like you know,
Speaker 4: then you can eat it. If your conscience feels bad
Speaker 4: about it because maybe you used to be that religion
Speaker 4: and you feel like it's dishonoring to God, then don't
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 3: But I so it is.
Speaker 4: I think there's a degree of specificity for the person.
Speaker 4: So I think the basic question that you can ask
Speaker 4: yourself is, I mean, the Bible says all things are permissible,
Speaker 4: but not all are beneficial, and maybe you could just
Speaker 4: think is this beneficial? Like let's say, sitting around the
Speaker 4: table with your kids opening fortune cookies. It's just kind
Speaker 4: of fun and it makes you laugh and it's a
Speaker 4: bonding experience and you're not taking it seriously, so there's
Speaker 4: literally nothing hurting you and it's benefiting you as a
Speaker 4: family because it's fun. I guess like maybe that could
Speaker 4: be the litmus test. Is there even a chance that
Speaker 4: it could be a gateway into something dangerous?
Speaker 3: Would be my stopping point.
Speaker 1: I think so too.
Speaker 2: You know, I think let's talk about fortune tellers. I
Speaker 2: think some are total shams who know they're scamming people.
Speaker 2: Some are probably shams who think they're legit, and I
Speaker 2: believe that some of them truly do have at least
Speaker 2: the desire to interact with something otherworldly, which would absolutely
Speaker 2: put them on the level of stay away.
Speaker 1: So stay away.
Speaker 2: From all of them, right, That's kind of where I
Speaker 2: fall or. I think most horoscopes that you read in
Speaker 2: the newspaper are gibberish and nonsense, But I still choose
Speaker 2: not to read them because, like you said, who knows
Speaker 2: where the line ends and who knows what's going to
Speaker 2: be the gateway for my husband the fortune cookies to get?
Speaker 1: And that's fine too.
Speaker 2: He doesn't make us feel bad for reading them, and
Speaker 2: we don't make him feel bad for not And so yeah,
Speaker 2: I think though that being aware of the gateways and
Speaker 2: absolutely being aware when you've passed over it is important. Simultaneously,
Speaker 2: I think that we do have more divine rights than
Speaker 2: we are often permitted to acknowledge, and sometimes the fear
Speaker 2: of falling under something that might be which crafty can
Speaker 2: keep us from truly becoming as powerful in our prayers
Speaker 2: as God wants us to be. But that might be
Speaker 2: I'd be a story for another day.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 4: I think that's a really good point to end on
Speaker 4: and to kind of top it off just as another
Speaker 4: reminder that the enemy could just as much use fear
Speaker 4: of treading in this area to keep you from praying
Speaker 4: with power and authentically as he could use your ignorance
Speaker 4: and failure to be wise and relying only on your
Speaker 4: physical carnal self in some of these areas. I think
Speaker 4: they're both equal and opposite dangers, and so let's bookend
Speaker 4: those and just you know, thank God we have the
Speaker 4: Holy Spirit, so we can continue to seek the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 4: We can, you know, just pray that God would help
Speaker 4: us to pray in spirit and in truth and with power.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Amen, Well, let's close with our blessing mendediction when
Speaker 2: your heart rejoiced today, that you might be suffering grief
Speaker 2: in all sorts of trials in the midst of your testing,
Speaker 2: That your spirit and body be kept blameless until the
Speaker 2: day of Christ's return. May His hope sustain you through
Speaker 2: whatever values you journey through. May He turn all your
Speaker 2: darkness into light and close you with robes of rejoicing
Speaker 2: instead of a spirit of despair.
Speaker 4: And our benediction is from Romans Chapter eight, verses thirty
Speaker 4: eight and thirty nine. For I am sure that neither
Speaker 4: death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present,
Speaker 4: nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth,
Speaker 4: nor anything else in all of creation will be able
Speaker 4: to separate us from the Love of God in Christ,
Speaker 4: Jesus our Lord.
Speaker 3: Amen.
Speaker 4: We'd like to take just a quick second to thank
Speaker 4: the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us
Speaker 4: on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
Speaker 4: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in
Speaker 4: their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,
Speaker 4: and so much more. That's lifeaudio dot Com.