1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 2: Come to the Praying Christian Women podcast. I am Alana 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 2: here with Jamie. 4 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: How are you. 5 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:11,319 Speaker 3: I'm doing great. 6 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: I am excited and terrified because you chose a topic 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 2: for us that I have no idea where we're going, 8 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: but I know it's going to be really fascinating and 9 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: I think that it is absolutely worth discussing. And to 10 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 2: be fair, I think this is a topic that a 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 2: lot of Christian podcasters would not be willing to touch. 12 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,599 Speaker 1: So let's talk about witchcraft. 13 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm going to give you background on kind 14 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,239 Speaker 4: of where this came from. So I heard someone and 15 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 4: I don't remember where, don't remember what the context was, 16 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 4: but it stuck with me. Someone said, some kinds of 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 4: prayer and prayer in air quotes, some kinds of prayer 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 4: can actually be a form of witchcraft, meaning Christians who 19 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 4: are doing certain types of prayer in air quotes. It's 20 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 4: witchcraft masquerading as prayer, and it's infiltrated the Christian community. 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 4: And so that my question started there of Okay, can 22 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 4: prayer in a Christian context be witchcraft in disguise? And 23 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 4: if so, absolutely, we want to know, and we want 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 4: to know why and how and how to identify it 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 4: and how not to do it right. 26 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 3: So that's kind of where that came from. 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: That No, it's going to be really fascinating, and I 28 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: am excited because I don't. I sort of made you 29 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: stop telling me your thoughts where this episode was going 30 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: to go because I wanted to experience it fresh. 31 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,119 Speaker 1: But I am also really. 32 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: Intrigued, and I have been for a very long time 33 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: at the sociological history of people being named, which is, so, 34 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: let's the practice of like evil spells or demonic worship 35 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: or things that are spiritually uns safe and sinful. But 36 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: this idea that a woman who knew how to make 37 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 2: a tea that could make somebody feel better after having 38 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: a miscarriage might get killed because people claim she was 39 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: a witch. Right, I am really intrigued at that interspection, 40 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: because I believe that the religious powers that were and 41 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: maybe be sometimes we're afraid of women, specifically who had 42 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 2: unorthodox interpretations of scripture or philosophies on life, And what 43 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 2: better way to get rid of them than to convince 44 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: a mob they're a witch and burnament mistake. So we're 45 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 2: going to be We're going to be getting into some 46 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: really interesting territory I am sure. 47 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 4: Well, just to kind of give an overview of what 48 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 4: we're talking about, because when I hear the word witchcraft, 49 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 4: the first thing that comes to my mind is, you know, 50 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 4: double double toil and trouble, you know, cald and burn whatever, 51 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 4: fire burn and cauldron bubble, like you know, women standing 52 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 4: around with pointy hats over potions and stuff. But in 53 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:20,399 Speaker 4: the biblical worldview that we're reading from, witchcraft wasn't magic necessarily. 54 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 4: I mean, it entailed elements of that, but it was 55 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,679 Speaker 4: really at its core a rebellion against God's authority and 56 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 4: trying to There are a few different things that it entailed, 57 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 4: like trying to control outcomes spiritually or in some way 58 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 4: manipulating outcomes with your human abilities, or by tapping into 59 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 4: darker spiritual forces instead of trusting God. Seeking hidden knowledge. 60 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 4: That was another thing, which involved wanting to know the future, 61 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 4: wanting to know secret knowledge that was forbidden by God, 62 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 4: appealing to other spirit beings so that would entail spirits, demons, 63 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 4: the dead, false gods, the rulers and principalities that are 64 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 4: not God, and so all of those things. Divination, which 65 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 4: is very interesting because I always think of like divination 66 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 4: in the carnal sense is, you know, like reading tea 67 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 4: leaves stuff like that, but also trying to predict or 68 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 4: uncover the future with different supernatural means like pagan casting 69 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 4: of lots, reading omens or scigns, astrology like practices. And 70 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 4: this is kind of like where we get the command 71 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 4: in Exodus twenty to eighteen, which says you may not 72 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 4: permit a sorceress to live. So you know, these are 73 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 4: all different ways that can kind of be like lumped 74 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 4: into that witchcraft category. And so we're not talking about 75 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 4: prayers that are like casting bells necessarily. We're talking about 76 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 4: using prayer as a means of basically taking a shortcut 77 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 4: to a road that God has not intended us to shortcut. 78 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 4: And huh so, yeah, so that's just kind of a 79 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 4: basic overview, and there are different categories of witchcraft that 80 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 4: kind of fall into those, but we can talk about 81 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 4: that too. But you've got your mediums, you've got spiritists, 82 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 4: you've got necromancers, idolators. 83 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, Well I didn't come up with it 84 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: just her fun question because I wasn't exactly sure where 85 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 2: we're going with this, but I do have a joke. 86 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 1: Are you ready for it. Yes, you might have heard 87 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: this one. I think it's hilarious. 88 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: And my child did me a disservice because she gave 89 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 2: me like a hearty belly laugh when I told it 90 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: to him, So I think it's probably like a lot 91 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: funnier than it is. Okay. A woman stannstairs in the 92 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: living room and she shouts up to her husband and 93 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 2: she says, Honey, do you ever get like a stabbing 94 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: pain right at the base of your skull, like somebody's 95 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 2: got a voodoo doll of you and they're just jabbing 96 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: it with needles And he shouts down no, And then 97 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 2: in like a half a minute later, she calls up, 98 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: what about now? 99 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: Okay, good you. I think you gave me at least 100 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: that time. 101 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 3: That's a good one. I think that's pretty funny. 102 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, before we dive deeper in, could you open 103 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 2: this up in some prayer. 104 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 4: Yes, God, we just pray that you would be present 105 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 4: today during this conversation. We pray that you would open 106 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 4: our eyes, that you would help us to just be 107 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 4: open minded and not not afraid to dive into this 108 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 4: kind of unorthodox topic, and just help us to be 109 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 4: able to pray with more purity and more single heartedness 110 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 4: as a result of thinking about these things. And we 111 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 4: just pray that you would open our eyes to anyways 112 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 4: that we are falling into traps of praying in ways 113 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,000 Speaker 4: that are not healthy and not scriptural and biblical and 114 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: not glorifying to you. 115 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: Amen. 116 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: Amen. 117 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: So I did think of it just for fun. Were 118 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: there any witches in movies or anything that you were 119 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: super scared of growing up? Oh? 120 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Wizard of Oz, it was the witch and 121 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 4: the monkey beats then totally freaked me out as a. 122 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: She she was a scary witch. Have you seen the clip? 123 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: Mister Rogers invited the actress on into his home because 124 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: so many kids were scared of her that he invited 125 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: her to come dressed as herself and like, hey, look, 126 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 2: I'm a nice woman, and I. 127 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: Put on a costume. 128 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: And then she put on her her costume and gave 129 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: the little laugh, and it helped kids to realize, oh, 130 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: like she's she herself is not evil, She's just pretending 131 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 2: to be. What's really cute about the Wizard of Oz 132 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 2: is when my kids were little, our Youngoss maybe around 133 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: three or four, and so he could follow the story 134 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 2: kind of you know, like enough where he recognized the 135 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: characters but didn't like he couldn't tell you, you know, beginning, 136 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: middle and end and all of that. He called the 137 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: witch green guy, and he didn't realize it was a woman. 138 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: And I think it's adorable because I think there was 139 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: something like very cute in his worldview, that like only 140 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: men could be that mean and scary. 141 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: So I thought it was pretty cute. 142 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: That is cute green She was green guy. 143 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: That is too funny. 144 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: I was the most scared of the witches from Snow 145 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 2: White and Sleeping Beauty, And I was gonna really tell 146 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 2: you which was more, probably Sleeping Beauty because she turns 147 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 2: into the dragon, right. 148 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 4: I don't remember, but I just know the one with 149 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 4: the apple that was Sleeping Beauty. 150 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: That was Sleeping Beauty. 151 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 3: No ye, snow white, white Apple. 152 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: And she is scary when she turns into the old woman. 153 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 3: She's scary. The old woman part was scary for me. 154 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we hit on like everybody in our age, 155 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 2: rackets three scares witches. 156 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: Most like I would agree. 157 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 2: So let's start with what we absolutely fundamentally know to 158 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: be wrong and sinful. And you already labeled some of it, 159 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: but I want to make it super clear. So anything 160 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: that's communicating with the dead or supernatural beings that are 161 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: not God the Father, God the Son, and God the 162 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: Holy Spirit. I think that in my brain, those are 163 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: like the like Tebya and Fiddler on the Roof. There 164 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: is no other hand, right, Like, there is no way 165 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: to look at the Bible. 166 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: And say, oh, but what about this. 167 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: So if it has anything to do with conjuring up 168 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 2: the dead or praying to a spiritual thing that is 169 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 2: not spirit. 170 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 4: Guide, or relying on the spirit guide for information, I 171 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 4: would include praying to angels, which is something that has 172 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 4: crept into the church and people think that's cool and 173 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 4: that you know, I mean, do I believe that angels 174 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 4: are real? 175 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely do. 176 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 4: I believe that we have guardian angels, probably based on 177 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 4: what we read in scripture, and that they're everywhere doing 178 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 4: God's bidding and they love us and they minister to us. 179 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 4: But it is sinful to pray to angels. And I 180 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 4: think we need to make that really clear because I 181 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 4: think of all of the ways that we could stray 182 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 4: into the realm of what we would now consider witchcraft, 183 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 4: I think praying. 184 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 3: To angels would be in that. 185 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, because it feels innocuous on a level, most of 186 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: us would say that if you're saying a prayer to 187 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: the devil, then you're probably not doing something that a 188 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: Christian should condone, right, But yeah, basically, if you are 189 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 2: praying to an angel or a faint or your dead 190 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: grandmother who was an amazing prayer warrior and of Jesus, 191 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 2: like I believe that those things are very forbidden in Scripture. 192 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 4: At the basic level of the definition of trying to 193 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 4: control outcomes spiritually, I think a lot of things fall 194 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 4: under that, and I think. 195 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: That's what prayer is, though, so I need to hear 196 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 2: your definition better. 197 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 4: I'm sorry, So trying to control outcomes spiritually apart from God, 198 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 4: so it can get probably gray in some areas. But 199 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 4: if you're if you're trying to control an outcome apart 200 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 4: from God, so I would put manifesting in its pure 201 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 4: detached from God for sure. If you're I'm just basically 202 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 4: trying to manifest something without any regard to God's power, 203 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 4: you know what, I think what I'm going to do 204 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 4: is back up and I'm going to say that if 205 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 4: you are viewing prayer as a way to wield power 206 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 4: yourself instead of as a way to open the floodgates 207 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,320 Speaker 4: of God's power coming into earth to bring His kingdom 208 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 4: come and as will be done on earth as it 209 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 4: is in heaven, or even approaching God to have his 210 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 4: power intervene in a way that you are praying and 211 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 4: petitioning and begging and knocking down the door. Yes, you're 212 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 4: trying to control an outcome because you want something, But 213 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: if you're approaching it from if I just muster up 214 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 4: enough within myself to manifest this as opposed to if 215 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 4: I just knock and seek and keep on praying, then 216 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 4: maybe God, will you know, make this happen. 217 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 3: Do you see the difference that I'm. 218 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: I do see the difference I do, And I'm not 219 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 2: sure I agree with you? Okay, I want you have 220 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: to say, yeah, I think that this idea that I 221 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: mentioned at the beginning of the burning of witches, and 222 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 2: let's let's use it as witches with a small w 223 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: of basically just a woman with spiritual independence outside of 224 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: the religious powers of her day. I feel like the 225 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 2: devil doesn't want those kind of women, and the power 226 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: hungry church didn't want that kind of women. And I 227 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:47,359 Speaker 2: think that what you're describing as the fear of being 228 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: a quote witch and in certain cases be used to 229 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 2: keep us praying small. 230 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 3: Yes, I definitely see that. 231 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,839 Speaker 4: I still think though, that if you're trying to control 232 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 4: things through your power and not God, not God's power, 233 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 4: it's I think that's why I was saying, I'm going 234 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 4: to back it up. I think I'm backing it up 235 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 4: to your intention and who you're because I see what 236 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 4: you're saying, and you're right that idea has in my 237 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 4: life paralyzed me because I feel like, well, first I 238 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 4: have to know what God wants before I can pray 239 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 4: with power. Yeah, and that is not That's not what 240 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 4: I'm talking about though, for sure, And I'm glad you 241 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 4: brought that up, because that's not what I definitely don't 242 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 4: think that's true. I think it is when we believe 243 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 4: that we control our own destiny by mustering up enough 244 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 4: and we sort of tag God onto it, that's when 245 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 4: it becomes sinful. 246 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 3: Is that a better way to say it. 247 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: That's I can seed to all of that. And I 248 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: do feel like these types of mine or world views, 249 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 2: is what I'm trying to say, have crept into the 250 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: church and into our theology and into our prayer lives. 251 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 2: I think, however, some people, for the sake of theological purity, 252 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: are going to throw out too many babies with too 253 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 2: much bathbone it. And you've got to be so discerning 254 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 2: to know. Like, so, what I would hate is for 255 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: somebody to listen to this and all of a sudden 256 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: and be like, oh, no, I've been praying way too boldly. 257 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 2: God must be so mad at me. I need to 258 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: get back into my humble little corner. I need to 259 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 2: stay in my lane. 260 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 4: No, And I don't, yeah, definitely don't want that to happen. 261 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 4: What would you say is the I mean, I would 262 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 4: say the litmus test is who do you attribute power to? 263 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: Yes, are you praying to God? Or are you praying 264 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: to divine power within yourself? Or are you praying to 265 00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: either a heavenly or evil or deceased entity. And if 266 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: it's answer is not God, then you're doing it wrong well. 267 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 4: And I think one of the ways that kind of 268 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 4: illustrates what I'm thinking of is the like power of 269 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 4: words movement within certain Christian denominations and segments can get 270 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 4: into this where it puts the emphasis on the words 271 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 4: alone yes and tax got on as an afterthought, and 272 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 4: it's like, you control your destiny by saying these words. 273 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 4: And again you words have power for sure, And I 274 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 4: think there is a fine line between, like we talked 275 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 4: about in our last episode, choosing your words carefully, making 276 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 4: sure that you're speaking life, that you're you know, if 277 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 4: you're going to have a self fulfilling prophecy, let it 278 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 4: be a good one and not a limiting one for sure. 279 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 4: But I think when we put the focus on the 280 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 4: words above and beyond God, then. 281 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 3: But it's tough. 282 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 4: It's tough because it's tough not to abuse it, and 283 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,479 Speaker 4: it's tough not to be so afraid of words and 284 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 4: the power of words that God tells us, you know, 285 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 4: like as a man speaks, so he is right and 286 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 4: so's there's a balancing act to be had, and I 287 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 4: think we have to be careful not to overdo either side. 288 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 289 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's talk about the dangers of both extremes 290 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: so that people can identify which extremely you're more likely 291 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: to fall into if you resonate with the picture of 292 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 2: somebody shaming you, Like if you were to pray as 293 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 2: boldly as you can imagine, and you go to people 294 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 2: or yourself or God wagging fingers and saying who do 295 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 2: you think you are? Then you probably don't need to 296 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 2: worry about airing on the side of dabbling in witchcraft, 297 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: needs to err on the side of growing more faith 298 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 2: and claiming what truly is yours in Christ. If you 299 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 2: lean the other way and to the point where everything 300 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 2: you do has fear tacked onto it, because oh, if 301 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 2: I say this one thing, then you know God's going 302 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 2: to curse me, Or you know, I forgot to say 303 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: bless you to my nephew and now the devil's going 304 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: to steal his soul. Right, if you're living in fear 305 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 2: of all of this, and I think that's an indication 306 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: you've gotten to the way other extreme or and this 307 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 2: is the only one that I think would be hardest 308 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 2: for people to recognize in themselves, and that is if 309 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 2: it's only about you and your pride, because I can 310 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: definitely picture who you're talking about. And no, I don't 311 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 2: have like an individual in mind, but I can picture 312 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 2: the personality of somebody who will pray and who will 313 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: sound like a genuine faith filled, spirit filled prayer warrior, 314 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 2: but their focuses on themselves. So I think that maybe 315 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: a good litmus test to know if you're erring in 316 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 2: that extreme. It's almost like, if this prayer that you're 317 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 2: boldly praying doesn't come true, what happens in your brain? 318 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: And if it's a surrender, if it's oh, I guess 319 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: God had something even better in store, Okay, that's an 320 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 2: indication that you're still giving God the glory even if 321 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: it's disappointment. If it's like, oh, wow, I really wanted 322 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: this to happen. I will surrender to God's will, but man, 323 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,880 Speaker 2: this sucks, Okay, that shows humility. If it's oh, no, 324 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 2: I'm gonna look so bad because I prayed for this 325 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 2: thing and it didn't come true. Or if it's God, 326 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 2: that's not fair because I believed in this. I think 327 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: those are the mindsets that would show that you are 328 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: praying in human power, not divine power. 329 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 330 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 4: I can also see putting others on a pedestal as 331 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 4: being a form of witchcraft in idolatry. When let's say 332 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 4: you have someone that you consider a mentor and I 333 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 4: actually got into like kind of crossing the line on this, 334 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 4: I would say where I I almost viewed this person 335 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 4: as kind of like my shortcut to God, like. 336 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: Like I know what you're talking about. 337 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 4: As a and and this person was very insightful and perceptive, 338 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 4: and when she prayed over me, I took it as 339 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 4: gospel and I almost went to her like a medium. 340 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 4: And I don't mean that in a literal sense, but 341 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 4: what I mean is I almost was like, this person 342 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 4: is speaking the word of God over me, and I 343 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 4: really put her on a pedestal and went to her 344 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 4: for it was almost like like, Okay, I got to 345 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 4: go to this person to hear from God, and that 346 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 4: it's dangerous. That's basically going to someone as a medium 347 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 4: between you and God. And we don't have that Jesus 348 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 4: as our high priest, and you know, we have the 349 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 4: Holy Spirit. Not to say again that you want to 350 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 4: take it too far and not have mentors, not have 351 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 4: people that you feel like are mature and have a good, 352 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 4: good relationship with God and speak words of truth in life. 353 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 4: But it's where is your heart is that person? Are 354 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 4: you feeling like you have to go through that person 355 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 4: to get to God or not? 356 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 3: And I think I think fear. 357 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: It can, and I think fear can be a pretty 358 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 2: good litmus test. It's just because on the one hand, yeah, 359 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: I have mentors, and even now, if I'm about to 360 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: make a big decision, I'd be like, I would love 361 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 2: to chat with Becca about this, because I know she's 362 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: going to ask me the right questions to help me 363 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 2: to see clearly there's a difference between that, and so 364 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 2: then it would actually be foolish for me. If God 365 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: is given me a person like that in my life, 366 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: it would not be the smartest for me to make 367 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 2: a big decision if I had the opportunity to not, 368 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: you know, it would be foolish me to say, well, 369 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 2: I can't ask Beck about this because I don't want to. 370 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: I don't want to rely too much on her for 371 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 2: spiritual guidance. This has to be between God and me. 372 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 2: On the other hand, I think where you know that 373 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: it's gone too far is if it becomes fear based, 374 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 2: if it's if you're paralyzed. Oh sorry, Jamie, I don't 375 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: know if I can record with you today or not 376 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 2: because I haven't talked to Becca. That's a problem, right, 377 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: or you know, yeah. I think really a huge litmus 378 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 2: test in so many parts of our spiritual life, and 379 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: especially in this one, is your primary motivation fear And 380 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: if so, that's an indication that you're off balance. So 381 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 2: if it's, I am so glad that God has given 382 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 2: sobody with wisdom that I can talk to, and I 383 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: believe that at times He will use this person to 384 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: ask me questions and in that process I will discover 385 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 2: God's will. I think that's wonderful. I wouldn't worry about 386 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: that from a spiritual standpoint. Where it becomes worrisome is 387 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 2: if ooh, I'm so scared that if I don't pray 388 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: before my meeting with Becca this afternoon, she might tell 389 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 2: me something wrong and God's skinned, you know. Or oh, 390 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 2: I actually can't make this decision because my next call 391 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: with my coach isn't for three more weeks, so sorry, 392 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 2: you know. Then it becomes fear based, and I can't 393 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: think of much good that comes out of fear based 394 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: decisions in the Christian life. 395 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 396 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,719 Speaker 2: So the idea though, of being able to know the 397 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: future and what some people might call divination or you know, 398 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 2: there are bajillion words for it. I mean, in the Bible, 399 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 2: there were prophets who would speak to future events. You 400 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: and I have talked about sometimes like God giving you 401 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 2: a little bit of a head step. So where do 402 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,919 Speaker 2: those kinds of things fall into this, and how do 403 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: you know if this is something that's verging on spiritually 404 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: dangerous territory. 405 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I think like with the prophets, they were 406 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 4: always clear who was telling them these things, that it 407 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 4: was God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and 408 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 4: in that realm. I always thought it was kind of 409 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 4: funny that, like the way you discern whether someone is 410 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 4: from God or not is whether the thing comes to pass. 411 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 4: But you know, basically, I would say if you are 412 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 4: seeking to know the future from someone other than God himself, 413 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 4: I mean, I've heard of people speaking prophetic words over people, 414 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 4: and the Bible says don't treat prophecies with contempt, test everything. 415 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 4: So I hold that it's possible that someone could speak 416 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 4: a prophetic word over you and say this is from 417 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 4: the Lord. He said, you know this is going to happen. 418 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 4: I would say tread very lightly there if it's not solicited. 419 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 4: If you're going to someone to find out the future, 420 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 4: and you're soliciting their advice, most people think of that 421 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 4: as going to like a future fortune. 422 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 3: Tellig teller, medium or what. 423 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 4: I don't know the proper terms for all of them, 424 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,919 Speaker 4: but that's not coming from God. And I honestly don't 425 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 4: see any evidence in the Bible, aside from prophets who 426 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 4: were already established and known to be hearing from God. 427 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 4: There were kings that would say is this going to happen? 428 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 4: Or is this going to happen? 429 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 3: But I don't know. 430 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,360 Speaker 4: As us for us everyday Christians, I don't know that 431 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 4: that would be a healthy thing to do, to go 432 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 4: to someone and say, what does God say about the future. 433 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 4: I don't see a precedent there because I don't know. 434 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 4: I think that's very dangerous. But the bottom line is 435 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 4: who is that information coming from? If it's coming, who 436 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 4: are you seeking it out from? And if someone is 437 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 4: coming to you with future knowledge, I would test it 438 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 4: heavily and be very cautiously skeptical, shrewd as serpents, I 439 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 4: would say. 440 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I think that makes a lot 441 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: of sense, and I think it does a good job 442 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: like not saying, well, God never speaks about the future anymore, 443 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: or anybody who pretends to know about future events is 444 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: of the devil. I don't believe either of those are true. 445 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's not a common thing. It's not something 446 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: to go and seek out. I absolutely have had times 447 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 2: for God has told me that something is going to 448 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 2: happen and I know that it is from the Lord. However, 449 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: those aren't things I go and seek out. They are there, 450 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 2: So to me, it's kind of like I don't need 451 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 2: to go to a you know, Christian fortune teller to 452 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 2: know this. If God wants me to know something, I'm 453 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 2: going to know. I also think it'd be totally fine, 454 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 2: Like if there was I could totally see coming to 455 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 2: you and be like, Jamie, I feel like God's told 456 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 2: me this thing about my kid. I really want to 457 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: pray with you about it, because like this picture that 458 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 2: God gave me is really worrisome. This is a hypothetical, 459 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 2: but I could totally see that is this just a 460 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: mother's anxiety or is this something that God is putting 461 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: on my heart through the Holy Spirit as a prophecy 462 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: And you won't know that until you have some prayer 463 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 2: and praying with somebody else can be so, but it's 464 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 2: got to be the right person, you know. Some people 465 00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 2: are so closed off to any of this that they 466 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,119 Speaker 2: would be the right person to ask for prayer for that. 467 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it's really interesting because on the one hand, 468 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: I sometimes wonder we talk a lot about not getting superstitious. 469 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 2: I sometimes wonder if there's such a thing as a 470 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 2: non superstitious human though, or if some people we just 471 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 2: call thing superstitions because they're not what we believe, you 472 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like some people are superstitious about 473 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,479 Speaker 2: having to say in Jesus' name Amen, or you know, 474 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 2: I think some people are gonna get feathers offold. I 475 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 2: think some people treat the sinner's prayer superstitiously. 476 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: It's you say. 477 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 2: These magic words and then no matter what, your salvation 478 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: is secure forever. And I do not believe that God 479 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: is up there like choosing every day. If she died today, 480 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 2: would I save or or not? I don't believe that 481 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: that is up for question. But I also don't think 482 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 2: that it's as simple as getting a four year old 483 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 2: to chance some words, you know, I mean talk about 484 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: witchcraft and spells. 485 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 1: I think it so. 486 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: All I'm saying is I am open to the possibility 487 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: that we are all so superstitious and some of us 488 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: just don't know it, because, yes, because. 489 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 4: We're blind to it, because it's our culture, it's our 490 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 4: Christian culture. 491 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 492 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 4: I also want to just give a word of warning. 493 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 4: So I recently heard one of the podcasts I was 494 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 4: listening to about like Big Church Scandal. There was a 495 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 4: guy in a church movement who had these huge, basically 496 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 4: auditoriums of people, and he was claiming to be able 497 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 4: to know about people before, like without them having told 498 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 4: him anything about themselves. And he was basically acting like 499 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 4: a medium, only with slapping God on it. So he 500 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 4: would have people come and say you live on is 501 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 4: there someone here who's name is starts with a J. 502 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 4: I'm thinking of Jerry and they live on some kind 503 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 4: of road. I'm picturing a black bird. And someone will 504 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,479 Speaker 4: be like, oh, my name's Jerry and I live on 505 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 4: Crow Lane or whatever. 506 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 3: And he was doing this. 507 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 4: He was literally going on Facebook and getting information about people. 508 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 3: He's getting the list hilarious ahead of time. 509 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 4: Well, the sad thing is people that fell for it 510 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 4: were like, how did I fall for this? He was 511 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 4: literally going on Facebook, like I wanted so much to 512 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 4: receive a word from God because of something difficult I 513 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 4: was going through. And so just a word of caution 514 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 4: please if someone My thought is, what why is he 515 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 4: doing that stuff? 516 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 3: Like you know? 517 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 4: And then he would say, Oh, God loves you. God 518 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 4: gave me that information to note to let me know 519 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,479 Speaker 4: that He sees you and so that you feel loved. 520 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 4: That seems like a good thing. But just be really 521 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 4: careful when anyone, even a Christian claiming to know God, 522 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 4: claiming to be hearing from God, says something, whether it's 523 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 4: telling the future, prophesying the end of the world, which 524 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 4: I mean that's its own thing, prophesying when something is 525 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 4: going to happen, Just you know, really test everything, especially 526 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 4: in today's day and age. 527 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean sometimes it's laughable. Sometimes it's really sad. 528 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: I think that if anybody listening has fallen prey to 529 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: like a spiritual scam like that, I think what I 530 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 2: would want to tell you is, hey, you're not. You 531 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 2: shouldn't feel ashamed, like shame on that person for being 532 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 2: a Charlatan, right, And it is a gift and a 533 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 2: privilege that you aren't so skeptical that you didn't see 534 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: it coming, right. 535 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: That shows that. 536 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 3: Your just does and trusting. 537 00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 2: And I would go so far as to say that 538 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: if you are hungry for a word from the Lord, 539 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 2: God knows what you need. God has spoken to people. 540 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 2: My favorite story I have two funny stories about this. 541 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: I knew one guy who got saved at a Michael 542 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: Jackson concert because the song You Were Not Alone touched 543 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: him so much and he truly felt like God was 544 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 2: singing it to him. I also know of somebody who 545 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 2: got saved reading the Koran, and I forget the story behind, 546 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 2: like as saved as a Christian, but it was a 547 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 2: verse from the Qoran that somehow led him to the Bible. 548 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 2: So God can use anything, So shame on the charlatan 549 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: like shame, shame, shame, shame, shame. And this is coming 550 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: from somebody who doesn't like shame people. 551 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: But you should not be ashamed. And if God happens. 552 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: To speak to you through that. 553 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: That's okay too. 554 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: God has spoken to me through musicals written by non Christians. 555 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 2: God has spoken to me through paintings painted by non Christians. 556 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 2: So why couldn't God, I'd have spoken to you through 557 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: a Charlatan. It's sad to come to terms with, but 558 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 2: I just want to leave that for people, and you 559 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: know it is, it's it's so laughable. It's kind of 560 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: like horoscopes that are so vague that like you can't 561 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: be wrong, you know, to cookies too. Yeah, So I 562 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: want to close with just a quick discussion about things like, 563 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: let's let's do fortune cookies. My husband will not participate 564 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 2: when we go to a Chinese restaurant and are given 565 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 2: fortune cookies. He chooses not to participate because to him, 566 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: that's too close to horoscopes, which is too close to astrology, 567 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 2: which is too close to witchcraft. My thought is, these 568 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 2: are fun and silly, and we always do the with 569 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 2: the chainsaw afterwards. 570 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: Do you know I like that? No, I view that. 571 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you take whatever it says on the fortune 572 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: cookie and you add the words with the chainsaw, so 573 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 2: it will say you will you will achieve your dreams 574 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 2: with a chainsaw or something. So I believe certain things 575 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 2: are totally innocuous. I believe certain things are extremely sinful, 576 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: and then I believe that there are some things that 577 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 2: are probably dangerous to be treated with caution, that certain 578 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: people definitely should completely stay away from. What's your opinion 579 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: on how to know which of those categories something falls into? 580 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 2: So totally innocuous, that's how I treat a fortune cookie. Okay, 581 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: totally sinful like praying to the dead, and then the 582 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,040 Speaker 2: stuff that is potentially dangerous that some people should absolutely 583 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 2: not participate in. Like when some of my dad's great 584 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: great aunts and uncles passed, he would not go to 585 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 2: Buddhist funerals, whereas other people might say, I know that 586 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 2: I am not Buddhist, so this doesn't bother me. 587 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 4: That's tough, and I would say that it's possible, like 588 00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 4: you said, that one thing would be right for one 589 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 4: person and not for another. The Bible even says that. 590 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 4: But like, you know, it's like meat sacrifice to idols. 591 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 4: If you know that that meat that was sacrificed to 592 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 4: idols is in itself just a bunch of you know, 593 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 4: a newspapers, you know, Yeah that basically, like you know, 594 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 4: then you can eat it. If your conscience feels bad 595 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 4: about it because maybe you used to be that religion 596 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 4: and you feel like it's dishonoring to God, then don't 597 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 4: do it. 598 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 3: But I so it is. 599 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 4: I think there's a degree of specificity for the person. 600 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 4: So I think the basic question that you can ask 601 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 4: yourself is, I mean, the Bible says all things are permissible, 602 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 4: but not all are beneficial, and maybe you could just 603 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 4: think is this beneficial? Like let's say, sitting around the 604 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 4: table with your kids opening fortune cookies. It's just kind 605 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 4: of fun and it makes you laugh and it's a 606 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 4: bonding experience and you're not taking it seriously, so there's 607 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 4: literally nothing hurting you and it's benefiting you as a 608 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 4: family because it's fun. I guess like maybe that could 609 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 4: be the litmus test. Is there even a chance that 610 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 4: it could be a gateway into something dangerous? 611 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 3: Would be my stopping point. 612 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: I think so too. 613 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 2: You know, I think let's talk about fortune tellers. I 614 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: think some are total shams who know they're scamming people. 615 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 2: Some are probably shams who think they're legit, and I 616 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 2: believe that some of them truly do have at least 617 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 2: the desire to interact with something otherworldly, which would absolutely 618 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,240 Speaker 2: put them on the level of stay away. 619 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: So stay away. 620 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 2: From all of them, right, That's kind of where I 621 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: fall or. I think most horoscopes that you read in 622 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 2: the newspaper are gibberish and nonsense, But I still choose 623 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 2: not to read them because, like you said, who knows 624 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 2: where the line ends and who knows what's going to 625 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: be the gateway for my husband the fortune cookies to get? 626 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: And that's fine too. 627 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 2: He doesn't make us feel bad for reading them, and 628 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 2: we don't make him feel bad for not And so yeah, 629 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 2: I think though that being aware of the gateways and 630 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 2: absolutely being aware when you've passed over it is important. Simultaneously, 631 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 2: I think that we do have more divine rights than 632 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: we are often permitted to acknowledge, and sometimes the fear 633 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 2: of falling under something that might be which crafty can 634 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 2: keep us from truly becoming as powerful in our prayers 635 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 2: as God wants us to be. But that might be 636 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 2: I'd be a story for another day. 637 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: Now. 638 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,080 Speaker 4: I think that's a really good point to end on 639 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 4: and to kind of top it off just as another 640 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:54,320 Speaker 4: reminder that the enemy could just as much use fear 641 00:37:54,640 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 4: of treading in this area to keep you from praying 642 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 4: with power and authentically as he could use your ignorance 643 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 4: and failure to be wise and relying only on your 644 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 4: physical carnal self in some of these areas. I think 645 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 4: they're both equal and opposite dangers, and so let's bookend 646 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 4: those and just you know, thank God we have the 647 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 4: Holy Spirit, so we can continue to seek the Holy Spirit. 648 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 4: We can, you know, just pray that God would help 649 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 4: us to pray in spirit and in truth and with power. 650 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Amen, Well, let's close with our blessing mendediction when 651 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 2: your heart rejoiced today, that you might be suffering grief 652 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 2: in all sorts of trials in the midst of your testing, 653 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 2: That your spirit and body be kept blameless until the 654 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 2: day of Christ's return. May His hope sustain you through 655 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 2: whatever values you journey through. May He turn all your 656 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 2: darkness into light and close you with robes of rejoicing 657 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 2: instead of a spirit of despair. 658 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,479 Speaker 4: And our benediction is from Romans Chapter eight, verses thirty 659 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 4: eight and thirty nine. For I am sure that neither 660 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 4: death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, 661 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 4: nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, 662 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 4: nor anything else in all of creation will be able 663 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 4: to separate us from the Love of God in Christ, 664 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 4: Jesus our Lord. 665 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 3: Amen. 666 00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 4: We'd like to take just a quick second to thank 667 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 4: the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us 668 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 4: on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 669 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 4: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in 670 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 4: their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 671 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:44,919 Speaker 4: and so much more. That's lifeaudio dot Com.