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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian of doctor James Spencer and I

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Speaker 1: am joined today by doctor Gary Edward Schnicker. I'm pretty

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Speaker 1: sure I got that right, and you all know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you all know how I am things. He is a

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Speaker 1: Distinguished Professor of Old Testament at the School of Divinity

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Speaker 1: at Cairn University, and he's also got a substack at

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Speaker 1: carpenter student dot com. That's Carpenter's what ends with an

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Speaker 1: S and then student begins with an S, so there's

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Speaker 1: two s's in the middle there. Those links will be

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Speaker 1: in the show notes, so if you wanted to check

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Speaker 1: out the rest of his work, you can go there.

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Speaker 1: But today we're going to be discussing an article that

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Speaker 1: he recently published in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society,

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Speaker 1: and it's on a pretty important topic from my perspective,

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Speaker 1: repairing Torah, James W. Watts and Moses as mediator of

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Speaker 1: im moral instructions. So we're gonna have a conversation about

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Speaker 1: the immoral instructions of the Torah and Gary, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the program.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much for being here.

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Speaker 3: Well, welcome and thanks for having me. But already have

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Speaker 3: to say a thing. Immoral is in quotes.

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Speaker 1: Yes, in morals in quote yes, and morals in quotes.

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Speaker 1: That'll become clear as we have a conversation. So yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So give me just a sense of So I'm back

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Speaker 1: in just you and I have never really met. We

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Speaker 1: didn't have a ton of time to talk before the interview.

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Speaker 1: But I'm an Old Testament guy too. I did my

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Speaker 1: PhD in Theological Cities Old Testament It's heads, and so

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Speaker 1: this article kind of threw me in early. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: as familiar with Watts's work, and so I really appreciate your.

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Speaker 2: Review of it.

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Speaker 1: But what drew you into this topic? What makes it

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Speaker 1: sort of relevant to you? And do you see it

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Speaker 1: as something that is sort of peeking into Old Testament

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Speaker 1: studies as a whole.

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Speaker 3: So for the last part, absolutely, yes, this is very

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Speaker 3: much a problem in Old Testament studies. But no, I've

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Speaker 3: known of Watts's scholarship since the late nineteen nineties and

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Speaker 3: I've followed him. He's a very sober, careful, good scholar,

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Speaker 3: and I hadn't I wasn't looking for anything with him.

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Speaker 3: I think about five years ago thereabouts, I turned in

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Speaker 3: an article and to jso two and it's always the thing,

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Speaker 3: you work really hard to make your word count and then

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Speaker 3: they tell you add all these ten things, and so

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Speaker 3: I was adding all the things, and one of the

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Speaker 3: things I said is James Watts has a commentary on

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Speaker 3: Leviticus one through ten, and so I wasn't aware of it.

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Speaker 4: So I got it.

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Speaker 3: It was great, really great. I mean I did use

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Speaker 3: it from the library because it was so expensive. But

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Speaker 3: then anyway, that article got published. But when I saw

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Speaker 3: his new volume two coming out of the commentary, very expensive,

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Speaker 3: but I said I have to have it, so I

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Speaker 3: splurged when my wife wasn't watching. And when I got it,

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Speaker 3: I was looking at it and I just couldn't believe

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Speaker 3: what I was reading. He is saying in his introduction

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Speaker 3: to cross out all the immoral verses of the entire Bible,

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Speaker 3: but most of them are in Torah, and so he

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Speaker 3: even gives a list of these immoral verses, and he

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Speaker 3: seriously goes on and on about it. He's written one

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Speaker 3: other essay about this, and I went and got that.

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Speaker 3: So at first I was just disgusted that I had

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Speaker 3: wasted money on this commentary. I mean really, And so

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Speaker 3: it was that same day I was out biking and

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Speaker 3: I was just so frustrated at myself, and I was

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Speaker 3: just so dumb, and I certainly didn't want my wife

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Speaker 3: to find out. But all of a sudden, it just

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Speaker 3: hit me when I was out biking, is what would

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Speaker 3: happen if we did cross out all of these verses

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Speaker 3: that well, to be honest with you, I think the

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Speaker 3: verses that Christians at least dislike, and I think probably

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Speaker 3: many Christians hate them. Now nobody says that, but I

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Speaker 3: think what's what I realized is Watts probably is tapping

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Speaker 3: into something here, because these are the verses Christians are

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Speaker 3: embarrassed about because Christians worry maybe they are immoral. So

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Speaker 3: but what hit me is what if we crossed them out,

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Speaker 3: what would happen? And it was just in a flash

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Speaker 3: I knew I had to research this. So this is

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Speaker 3: not an area that I was really there was a

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Speaker 3: lot long on remp for It was Wats's commentary that

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Speaker 3: pulled me into it, and then once I started researching

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Speaker 3: it because of that question what would happen if we

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Speaker 3: cut these verses out? I realized immediately that these are

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Speaker 3: God's protections and offering justice to people in the ancient

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Speaker 3: world who need it most, and so we can't just

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Speaker 3: cut these verses out of the Bible without ruining. In short,

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Speaker 3: if we cut these verses out of the Bible, it

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Speaker 3: empowers male predators and it puts everyone else at risk.

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Speaker 1: Simply, so, let's clarify Watts's position for listeners just so

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Speaker 1: they have a good understanding of it basically, and I'll

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Speaker 1: kind of throw my summary out there and then you

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Speaker 1: can geek it a little bit. But basically, there are

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Speaker 1: these passages in the Old Testament that are related to

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Speaker 1: things like rape, homosexuality, and I think there were a

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Speaker 1: couple of slavery ones in there. You know, these kind

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Speaker 1: of laws, as you rightly I think state Christians are really.

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Speaker 2: Uncomfortable with them.

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Speaker 1: They don't like when they are reading through the Old Testament.

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Speaker 1: These are the ones the passages you get to and

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh wow, I kind of wish that wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: I'd really like to skip over this, right. And so

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Speaker 1: what he's saying is, listen, they don't have to be there.

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Speaker 1: Let's just cross them out. He's advocating with for Bible

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Speaker 1: translators even to leave them out or at least cross

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Speaker 1: the mount and really doing some editorial work on the

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Speaker 1: Old Testament to bring it up to the moral standards

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Speaker 1: of modern day. Is that a fair characterization or what

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Speaker 1: would you add to that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I mean that that is fair New Testament too. He

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Speaker 3: gives a list of all the verses that he considers immoral.

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Speaker 3: Luckily he's a strong specialist in the Taurus, because there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of verses you and I might want to

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Speaker 3: add to Hitsel. He missed some good ones. But he

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Speaker 3: does not cross out any narratives. So, for example, the

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Speaker 3: narrative account of the destruction of sod ngomor he doesn't

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Speaker 3: cross out none of that because he doesn't want to

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Speaker 3: be a hypocrite. That is, he wants to only cut

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Speaker 3: out the norms where there's an authoritative teaching to do

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Speaker 3: something that he considers immoral.

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Speaker 4: So and he's just a matter of.

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Speaker 3: Fact about it, like when the Bible commands genocide or

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Speaker 3: sexual standards or patriarchy, or he's against capital punishment, and

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Speaker 3: he very much points out that, you know, the Bible

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Speaker 3: has capital punishment for just about everything, including a bunch

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Speaker 3: of very minor religious you know, fractions, and so all

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Speaker 3: of this is immoral, and so he thinks it's wrong.

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Speaker 3: Now part of one thing to put in here that

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Speaker 3: will help listeners just a little how to come to this.

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Speaker 3: Watts does say very clearly that meaning has to be

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Speaker 3: understood in context. What's different is his view of context.

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Speaker 3: So he used to have a normal view of context.

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Speaker 3: By normal, I mean ancient biblical literary context. But for

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Speaker 3: about the past twenty years thereabouts he's been working on

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Speaker 3: what he calls ritualization, and what that means we would

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Speaker 3: call that probably reception history. But every reading, every interpretation,

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Speaker 3: every book, every sermon, everything that's ever been said about, say,

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Speaker 3: the Book of Leviticus, which this commentary is about, all

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Speaker 3: of that is the meaning or the context, if you will,

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Speaker 3: essentially the meaning. So then he's done a series of

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Speaker 3: studies on how the Bible has been used by criminals, terrorists, dictators,

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Speaker 3: slave traders, awful people to justify awful things, and he

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Speaker 3: says that's the meaning, and so he wants to nip

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Speaker 3: it in the bud. And you know, he's admitting he

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Speaker 3: feels like he's been responsible teaching Torah all these years.

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Speaker 3: He's part of the problem. And so he wants us

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Speaker 3: to essentially cancel the immoral teachings of Scripture by getting

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Speaker 3: all scholars to cross them out and getting Bible publishers

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Speaker 3: to put strike through text across them out. He doesn't

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Speaker 3: want to delete them because we need to learn from

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Speaker 3: past mistakes. So that's essentially his view is repealing the

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Speaker 3: immoral teachings of Scripture. And he just over and over

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Speaker 3: again lists all those kinds of things. Any do provide

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Speaker 3: a list of all the immorals texts. According to Wat,

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Speaker 3: it's in my article right in the whole Bible.

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Speaker 1: It's so that understanding of context is really I think helpful.

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Speaker 1: I find it really difficult to hold given. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just had a gentleman named Dan Hawk on He's

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Speaker 1: He's written a book on you know, American history, and

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Speaker 1: to some extent, the use of the Joshua narrative to

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Speaker 1: justify certain nationalistic tendencies and conquest narratives and those kind

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Speaker 1: of things. You see this with the Exodus an awful

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Speaker 1: lot in liberation theologies, but even in early colonial America,

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Speaker 1: where you know America takes on the Exodus narrative, they are,

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Speaker 1: you know, essentially the Israelites being rescued from the tyrants

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Speaker 1: of Great Britain. And so even though he doesn't include

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Speaker 1: those narratives, that understanding of context would almost necessarily require

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Speaker 1: that we read these other texts in the same way

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Speaker 1: that we look across the whole reception history of this

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Speaker 1: and say, well, how have these texts been used, and

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Speaker 1: then what does that add to the meaning, or how

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Speaker 1: should we understand these texts based on this meaning? It

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Speaker 1: seems highly problematic from a methodological perspective to do this

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Speaker 1: without calling balls and strikes on what is an appropriate

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Speaker 1: interpretation and use versus what's an illegitimate interpretation and use?

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Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I agree with you so far as it goes.

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, and part of what you're saying

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Speaker 3: is even we can't really separate the norms from the

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Speaker 3: narratives exactly when we're talking about authority of text.

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Speaker 4: That's right, But I think what.

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Speaker 3: I mean to put a simple view on it, My

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Speaker 3: view simply is bad interpretation. Isn't the meaning, It's bad interpretation, right.

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Speaker 3: And maybe a second thing on context. I think, as

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Speaker 3: far as a punchline, if we construe context in such

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Speaker 3: a way that it contradicts the meaning of the text,

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Speaker 3: that's not the context, right. I mean, right, we're you know,

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Speaker 3: that's not how it works. But I think that I

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Speaker 3: want to positively say Watts has really helped me and

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Speaker 3: he has something important here because he's spent the last

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Speaker 3: twenty years doing studies of terrible uses of scripture. And

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Speaker 3: what I think that the list opens for us isn't

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Speaker 3: just this argument with Wat's over hermaeneutics. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 3: willing to just say, Okay, we agree to disagree, but

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Speaker 3: I think that the larger issue is these texts that

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Speaker 3: he thinks are immoral. Those are essentially he's created a

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Speaker 3: list of the scriptural norms, at least setting aside in airbans,

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Speaker 3: scriptural norms that Christians are embarrassed about. And that's really

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Speaker 3: helpful to be able to quantify that. Yeah, maybe the

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Speaker 3: underlying dark secret that no one knew Christians want to

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Speaker 3: talk about is we think that maybe the Bible is

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Speaker 3: immoral because I mean, let's face it, Christians have a

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Speaker 3: hard time thinking that there's any way to contextualize killing

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Speaker 3: all those people, there's any way to contextualize some of

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Speaker 3: the laws, such as one of the most notorious is

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Speaker 3: where the victim has to marry the rapist. Like, Christians

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Speaker 3: can't imagine any scenario in which those could be contextualized,

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Speaker 3: And so the easiest thing is I mean, you know

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Speaker 3: this as well as anyone. I mean, every Sunday people

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Speaker 3: are in church saying I'm glad we just have the

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Speaker 3: New Testament. You know, it's like, well, wait, the New

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Speaker 3: Trustament doesn't put a stop to slavery, right, Yeah, the

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Speaker 3: New Testament isn't modern either. So so I think then

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Speaker 3: Watts has done something really important, a couple of important things.

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Speaker 3: But I think that there's something more here to do

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Speaker 3: than just to disagree.

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Speaker 1: With Watts, don't I Actually, I'm glad you brought that up.

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Speaker 1: I think it's one of the things that I really

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Speaker 1: liked about your piece is that you weren't overly harsh.

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Speaker 1: It was clear you disagreed with but you weren't overly

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Speaker 1: harsh about his work.

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Speaker 2: You actually found that benefit within it.

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Speaker 1: And so as I was reading it, and I'm you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of thinking it through and saying, yeah, I'm probably

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Speaker 1: identifying the same problem you are.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've been through multiple itterations of this.

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Speaker 1: You know, Andy Stanley's work kind of was a more

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Speaker 1: popular version of this, obviously more ancient. You have Marcian

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Speaker 1: and saying let's get rid of portion, you know, the

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Speaker 1: portions that we don't like events, right, And so this

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Speaker 1: is sort of a cyclical thing that tends to come

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Speaker 1: up where we're just having a hard time dealing with

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Speaker 1: these specific passages. And so when I when I did

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Speaker 1: a little more reading on Watts's position, I kind of

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Speaker 1: sit back and I'm like, he's trying to solve a problem.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he's trying to solve the problem in

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Speaker 1: the right way, but I think he's identifying the problem correctly.

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Speaker 1: I just I think there has to be a better

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Speaker 1: way to do that, and I think your article sort

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Speaker 1: of points toward one reason why we can't solve the

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Speaker 1: problem in the way that he's suggesting that wasn't a

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Speaker 1: just an appeal to hey, leave our Bibles alone, right.

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Speaker 1: I think your argument gives it a little bit more

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Speaker 1: teeth and a different understanding, So I appreciate it. That's

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Speaker 1: why don't we kind of pivot how you responded to

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Speaker 1: Watts's work in the article and help people understand that

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Speaker 1: it's not just you know, we're not just clutching pearls

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Speaker 1: and going to leave our Bibles alone, but there is

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Speaker 1: a real rational leaving these passages in there, and a

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Speaker 1: constructive aspect of having them as opposed to.

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Speaker 2: Pulling them out or deleting them or whatever we do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that, you know, that's that's really

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Speaker 3: the big thing is crossing them out is entirely the

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Speaker 3: wrong way to go. I use the word the expression

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Speaker 3: collateral damage, right, So when we start crossing things out

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Speaker 3: of the Bible, there's collateral damage. And Watts doesn't see this.

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Speaker 3: In personal correspondence I've had with him, it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, this doesn't put ancient people in danger. But

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Speaker 3: the way we interpret the Bible normally almost everyone we're

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Speaker 3: interpreting it in its ancient content text, and if the

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Speaker 3: Bible no longer said, you know, hey, we need to

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Speaker 3: protect the most vulnerable folks in our society, like slaves.

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Speaker 3: Then all of a sudden, we have a Bible that

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Speaker 3: is I use this term at the beginning, empowering predatorial males.

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Speaker 3: It's unleashing them today. That's the problem is. I'm not

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Speaker 3: worried about the ancient world either. I'm worried about how

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Speaker 3: the Bible functions for practicing Christians today, because you know,

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Speaker 3: we're walking in circles of people that actually go to

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Speaker 3: church and read the Bible and trust the Lord, and

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Speaker 3: so in those circles it matters how we interpret it

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Speaker 3: in what the Bible actually says.

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Speaker 4: And I think.

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Speaker 3: That that.

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Speaker 4: Sense.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you mentioned Andy Stanley, and there's others who

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Speaker 3: strongly for the New Testament and talk about almost how

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Speaker 3: the Old Testament is neutered practically, you know, by how

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Speaker 3: it's treated. That is also just as dangerous. And you

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Speaker 3: might have done better than me. But when I looked

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Speaker 3: at wats his list, I thought about, you know, he's

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Speaker 3: worried about the other side of me. He feels like

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Speaker 3: we're responsible and look what I've been promoting for the past,

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Speaker 3: you know, thirty years of my career. I'm looking at

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Speaker 3: his listing. Once I realized, these teachings are God protecting

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Speaker 3: the most vulnerable people, and I've been skipping over them

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Speaker 3: because they're hard. I've been teaching that, you know, covenants,

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Speaker 3: and I've been teaching the Redemption, and I haven't spent

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Speaker 3: the time in my seminary classes on the most difficult texts.

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Speaker 3: And so I realized I'm part of the problem, not

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Speaker 3: because I've been teaching those texts, but because I haven't been. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so I need to start emphasizing these texts because

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Speaker 3: we kind of have watts Is crossing out what are

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Speaker 3: essentially non functioning laws. Yeah, I mean nobody's nobody's preaching

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Speaker 3: on these passages. I don't want to say nobody, but

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Speaker 3: and then, well, anyway, there's more to it. But that's

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Speaker 3: that's kind of I think part of the rub.

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Speaker 2: Do you think this? So my dissertation supervisor is Dick Aberbeck.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book on the Old Testament Law for

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Speaker 1: the New Testament Church.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's exactly the name of it.

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Speaker 1: But in there he argues something about the law that

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Speaker 1: the law is good, weak, and unified all at the

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Speaker 1: same time. And he essentially makes what I think is

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Speaker 1: the helpful He helpfully frames the law and says, basically,

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Speaker 1: there's a point where he talks about, Look, the law

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Speaker 1: isn't always about instituting the ideal. Sometimes the law is

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Speaker 1: about managing the unideal. And I think we see this

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Speaker 1: in Jesus's teaching when he's going back and forth with

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Speaker 1: the Pharisees on divorce. Moses's command to give a certificate

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Speaker 1: a divorce Jesus roots in the hardness of man's heart,

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Speaker 1: not in the ideal situation that he paints in Genesis two,

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Speaker 1: where man and woman become one flesh, and so here

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Speaker 1: the law is sort.

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Speaker 2: Of holding back.

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Speaker 1: The evil that might be done were that evil not

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Speaker 1: for restrained. And so I guess my broader question is,

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Speaker 1: do you think that part of what Watts is struggling

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Speaker 1: with is this sense that when you read the law

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Speaker 1: in the Old Testament, that you're looking at this as

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Speaker 1: the law is constituting the ideal in society, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to dealing with the in ideal of society and trying

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Speaker 1: to curtail the sort of problems that would would arise

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Speaker 1: if there are no implications for curtailing the behavior that

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Speaker 1: makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'm very sympathetic, and I would hold

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Speaker 3: to have view something like Dick Everveck's view that you

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Speaker 3: just described. I think that, you know, we're kindred spirits

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Speaker 3: in that sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think that Watts isn't partisoning this out. He thinks

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Speaker 3: this is immoral.

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Speaker 4: And we're just we're Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But I think that your question really is one more

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Speaker 3: that is important for Christians who wonder, for example, why

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Speaker 3: God wouldn't say that slavery is wrong? Right now? You

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Speaker 3: and I would be the first people to say, the

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Speaker 3: Bible never promotes slavery. Yeah, but the Bible offers regulations

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Speaker 3: to protect slaves and to promote righteous living within the

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Speaker 3: ancient Near East, where slavery is extremely prevalent, and in

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Speaker 3: the New Testament within the Roman Empire, where slavery is

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Speaker 3: terrible and completely pervasive. And Christians, though the kind of

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Speaker 3: people we teach and that Dick teaches, I wonder, why

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Speaker 3: couldn't just God say that? But I didn't fully realize

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Speaker 3: this until I started doing this research for this article

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Speaker 3: and for a book that's coming out behind it.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: There is no such thing as abolition of slavery in

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Speaker 3: the ancient world. I mean no such thing, right, every

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Speaker 3: culture has prevalent slavery, and all the evidence that we

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Speaker 3: have and people are really who are specialists have dug

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Speaker 3: into this, and I've read the dissertations and so on.

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Speaker 3: Slaves who do get their freedom have made it when

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Speaker 3: they own their own slaves, and when there are a

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Speaker 3: couple of these revolts, there's not many, but where slaves

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Speaker 3: actually take over society in a couple of moments, especially

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Speaker 3: in Greece, they enslave other people. So like, there's no

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Speaker 3: evidence at all until we're coming up much more towards

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Speaker 3: modern times of anything like we would call abolition of slavery.

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Speaker 3: So to put it in simple terms, the people in

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Speaker 3: the ancient world wouldn't even understand well, putting even simpler terms,

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Speaker 3: God's not Yahweh is not a modern American, and he's

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Speaker 3: not giving teachings to modern Americans. He's reaching out to

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Speaker 3: people in the ancient erees and he's giving them what

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Speaker 3: they need. He's not being unrealistic. And the Bible does

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Speaker 3: know of these ideals.

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Speaker 4: That you mentioned.

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Speaker 3: Right, there will be no more slave, nor free male,

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Speaker 3: nor female June or gentile. So the Bible knows about that.

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Speaker 3: But the Bible is not in la la land talking

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Speaker 3: about things that don't mean anything. It's helping people to

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Speaker 3: serve God within these very difficult ancient situations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just it seems like such an important piece

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Speaker 1: of that context. That is sort of when I read

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Speaker 1: wats this work and I'm hearing.

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Speaker 2: Him to all these these laws and moral and then

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Speaker 2: I read your article and.

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Speaker 1: Your argument I think is really persuasive, because what you're

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Speaker 1: saying is, look, when we when we strike these laws out,

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Speaker 1: we're actually losing something really quite important, the equity and

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Speaker 1: provision given to the vulnerable society. This isn't about authorizing

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Speaker 1: rape or anything, you know, anything like that, capital punishment,

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Speaker 1: all those different things, right, This about curtailing the evils

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Speaker 1: of society so that you know, you're you're sort of

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Speaker 1: managing the chaos, right that would irrupt if these laws

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Speaker 1: weren't there. And so it just seems to me that

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Speaker 1: that's a really crucial part of the context. It's just

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Speaker 1: sort of falling a little flat here, is that these laws,

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Speaker 1: no matter how they've been used after the fact, in context,

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Speaker 1: they're actually really crucial and demonstrate a care and provision

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Speaker 1: for the people in the society.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's really important. And when I hasten

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Speaker 3: to at I mean I feel the way of Watson's argument,

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Speaker 3: and I feel the way of my students, my seminary students,

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Speaker 3: my college students, when they chafe against these things. I'm

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Speaker 3: also right, and I buy into Galatians three twenty eight.

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Speaker 3: I love it, but that's not what people in the

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Speaker 3: Roman Empire needed. And I think that, you know, maybe

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Speaker 3: it's easy for us to sit here in our lives,

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Speaker 3: but if we don't euphemize, and we don't like say,

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Speaker 3: euphemistically human trafficking, we talk about slavery, and we don't

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Speaker 3: change the definitions to make it too big.

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Speaker 4: Of a number.

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Speaker 3: Right, we just talked about actual slavery. There are still

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Speaker 3: millions of slaves in the world today. So even though

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Speaker 3: we might enjoy ourselves here in the United States for

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Speaker 3: the most part, not that there's no problems, we have

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Speaker 3: lots of problems, but there's people who still are suffering

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Speaker 3: under the same kinds of troubles that where God was

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Speaker 3: trying to protect these folks from in the ancient world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we still see all that sort of all

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Speaker 1: the sort of problems that were attended there.

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Speaker 2: It's not as if we.

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Speaker 1: Evolved to some sort of moral plane where our world

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Speaker 1: doesn't have all these problems and there's necessity for laws

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Speaker 1: of the similar nature to what we see in the

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Speaker 1: Old test even today. Or it's not an advocacy for

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Speaker 1: it's a an attempt to be against that's right. And

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Speaker 1: I think that, Yeah, sometimes it just feels like we

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Speaker 1: lose that sort of tension in the law of Again,

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Speaker 1: it's not instituting an ideal oftentimes it's curtailing a an

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Speaker 1: avarant practice that, if left unchecked, would go to the

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Speaker 1: end degree.

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Speaker 3: And so, but I understand how it is, because yeah,

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Speaker 3: things are things are different now than they were when

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Speaker 3: you and I were growing up. In this digital age,

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Speaker 3: people that come to church and all of us, we

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Speaker 3: get that the world gets to scream at us in

435
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 3: a way that it hasn't before. And right you point

436
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 3: out like you believe that, and there's no like deep

437
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 3: thinking in it. So people are just thinking, oh, yeah,

438
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: the Bible two is about slavery, The Bible two is

439
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 3: about kill all these people. Oh, the Bible has these

440
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,679
Speaker 3: teachings that the victim has to marry the rapist. So

441
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 3: nobody's really digging into it. This is all just this

442
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: I don't know, this fear, this dread that you know

443
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 3: that you can have an evangelical pastor that you mentioned

444
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 3: in Atlanta, a large multi side church, just like you know,

445
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 3: what would help the gospel if we unhitched the old Covenant.

446
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 3: I'll tell you what. That shall not obey the ten Commandments.

447
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 3: It's like, wait, that's not a Christian view, right, So

448
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,239
Speaker 3: I mean that's that's what's really frightening to me, is

449
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: that Watts is saying something that a lot of people

450
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 3: would really like to do, right, Yeah, oh yeah, there's

451
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 3: some verses.

452
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: I don't like when I think part of it is

453
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure you have too. In the course

454
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: of your study, you've read treatments of this that are

455
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: deeply scholarly and sort of stay in that real like

456
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: geeky he through, you know, technical journal sort of sense.

457
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: And I don't think we're bridging some of that out

458
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: to people that help them understand and get the frameworks

459
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: for understanding and even combating some of these arguments. This

460
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: this issue really came up to me. I had the

461
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: gentleman who sings the lead for Remedy Drive On, and

462
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: he does a lot of work with human trafficking, and

463
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: he made the comment about the Old Testament texts on

464
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: slavery and how could the Bible endorse slavery? You know,

465
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: He's asking these questions on the podcast, and I'm sitting

466
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: here like, I don't know, Like I've never really had

467
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: a robust I've never just I've just never done the work.

468
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: So I could give them the pad answers, right, sure,

469
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: but the pad answers don't.

470
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 2: Really work anymore.

471
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, there have to be

472
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: this sort of depth of engagement, like you're discussing, like,

473
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: let's get into these texts deeply, but then we've also

474
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: got to disseminate that depth at a level where people

475
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: can understand what's going on. And again, that's part of

476
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: what dremany your arearticle, because I think what you're doing

477
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: is this sort of collateral damage is an easy notion

478
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: to understand. Yeah, you know, it makes intuitive sense. You know,

479
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: if you take a few lines out of a movie,

480
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: you know that scene doesn't work anymore, right, Like, yeah.

481
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: We've all seen the new endings that they put on

482
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: these movies.

483
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 4: And said, no, you're that.

484
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 2: Wasn't it right?

485
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: You recut the trailers, you know, that kind of thing.

486
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: And and so I just think there's something intuitive about

487
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: the way you're arguing it that could make sense to

488
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 1: people on a broader level, Like there is collateral damage

489
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: anything you're remove out of these texts as implications, right,

490
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: And it isn't just that we get to cross the

491
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 1: mountain and ignore them and then think the Bible has

492
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: the same meaning as full right. What you end up

493
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: doing is creating a Bible in your own image, almost right,

494
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: as opposed to just letting it stand and be itself

495
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 1: and us struggling with it. We're trying to tame it

496
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 1: in a way. And I think that's and obviously I

497
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 1: think that's an unhelpful.

498
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I agree.

499
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: And Frankenstein didn't know Doctor Frankenstin didn't know what was

500
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 3: going to happen to his monster. Where he didn't realize

501
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 3: what would happen if he created in his own image.

502
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 3: That's right, and that's that's I think one of the

503
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: real dangers here. And I think, uh, when I did

504
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 3: this research, I was I was invited to do a

505
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 3: paper at a conference, and I did, and then that became

506
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 3: this article. Uh, well, I had some opportunities, and so

507
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 3: I went out and I spoke at a bunch of

508
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 3: different places on this. And so I spoke to Christian

509
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 3: school teachers supposed to spoke to youth leaders, and at

510
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 3: an all day seminar where I'm speaking to youth leaders.

511
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: So I mean, we could really get our hands to it,

512
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: you know, this full day seminar. And my one of

513
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 3: my friends, he's uh who was hosting it. He's been

514
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: in youth ministry for like forty years. He says, you

515
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 3: need to write a book about this that people can

516
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: use with their young people at church. Yeah, And I'm thinking, like, now,

517
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 3: I'm a scholar, I'm going to read this paper. I

518
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 3: don't mind doing these workshops. But then I started thinking

519
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 3: more about what my friend Matt had told me. And

520
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 3: I remember a student came to me, college student. I

521
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 3: have to teach one college class of year still to

522
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: pay my bills, pay my salary. A college student came

523
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 3: up after a class, my tour class. I had my

524
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 3: Bible here and she was like, this is like November,

525
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 3: so it's most of the way through the semester. And

526
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 3: she was all read, hadn't said a word all semester, right,

527
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: and so she reads me this. She says, I want

528
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 3: to read you this passage. This is from Exodus twenty one.

529
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 3: When a slave owner strikes a male or a female

530
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the

531
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: owner shall be punished, but if the slave survives a

532
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: day or two, there will be no punishment, for the

533
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 3: slave is the owner's property. She said, how am I

534
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 3: supposed to believe in a god like that?

535
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: Now?

536
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 3: This is like five years ago, and so I didn't

537
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 3: miss a beat. So this is before I knew anything

538
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 3: about Watts.

539
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I say to.

540
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: Her, what would the ancient slaves in Israel do if

541
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,239
Speaker 3: that law wasn't in the Bible? And so she's just

542
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: like looking at me, looking at me, dude, Well, what

543
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: do you mean? I said, can you imagine how awful

544
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 3: it would be if God wasn't there to protect these

545
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: ancient slaves from being beaten to death? I said, we

546
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 3: need to look at it more. I said, you might

547
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 3: not like God's solution, but God's there doing something to

548
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 3: protect people that are in a really bad situation. And

549
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: I think, because I mean you you admitted pat answers.

550
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 3: I didn't realize at the time. Once I've gotten into

551
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 3: this and looked at it more, the punishment there is

552
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: the death penalty, Like, so you kill your slave, no problem.

553
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 3: I mean read the context, it's like death, death, death, death.

554
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 3: And then the law right before this is if somebody

555
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 3: beat in a fight injures another free citizen. Yeah, it's

556
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 3: similar to the slave who's not dead, but the dead's

557
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 3: the slaves who's beaten to death. That master has to

558
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 3: face capital punishment. So it's you know, this is a practical,

559
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 3: but it's not. The point here is impractical. This is

560
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,720
Speaker 3: a moral way to deal with a context where slave

561
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 3: is ubiquitous. I mean, it's everywhere in the ancient world,

562
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: and these these people need help. So anyway, to make

563
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 3: a long story short, I did ask my academic editor

564
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: about a book, and but a popular.

565
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 4: Book or not.

566
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 3: I don't want to say to it popular to be misunderstood,

567
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 3: an accessible book. Yeah, And so I normally write academic

568
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 3: textbooks and reference works. So she handed me off to

569
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 3: a different editor, one that deals with this sort of thing.

570
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 3: So I did get contracted for this, and so about

571
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 3: a year from now, a popular level book will I

572
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 3: will do this and just going back with what you said.

573
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: One of the conferences I did for Christian school teachers

574
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 3: and that was just a short workshop, so it was

575
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:53,920
Speaker 3: focused just on the ancient rape laws. So school teachers

576
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 3: asking me, well, okay, I buy into everything you're saying.

577
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,320
Speaker 3: But and she she's ready to write this down. She

578
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: has like her pad of paper there. She goes, can

579
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 3: you tell me where I can look this up to

580
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 3: fact check you? And so I'm like, well, I'm like

581
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: trying to think, yeah, Like, well, i mean I've read

582
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 3: the commentaries. I know the commentaries really well. They all

583
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 3: skip over this point, right, I mean, you know, more

584
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 3: or less juggle it out, she said. And then I'm like,

585
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 3: after like thirty seconds or whatever she could say, I'm

586
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: like not having an answer. She goes, you're telling me

587
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,400
Speaker 3: that I would need to get a PhD. And you

588
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 3: couldn't just look this up easy. You had to really

589
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: work to get this, didn't you.

590
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 4: I said, well.

591
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then I realized that this book that I

592
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 3: was talking to Zahner and reflective about, we need a

593
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 3: book like this, not one that just says, you know,

594
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: Christian morals are better than other morals, like a lot

595
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 3: of the Apologetics books, and I have nothing against them.

596
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 3: I mean, I've read a bunch of them now and I.

597
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 4: Have to say they're great.

598
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,879
Speaker 3: But what we don't have is something to help young

599
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 3: people who are growing up. They're coming of age now

600
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 3: in this environment and they hate parts of the Bible

601
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 3: and they ignore it and they wish it wasn't there.

602
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 3: And pastors don't know because they're not like telling the pastor, Pastor,

603
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 3: I hate part of the Bible. I'm going to leave

604
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 3: Christianity when I can. I mean, we have a very

605
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: serious problem that we've not set ourselves up well for.

606
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 3: We've already lost a lot of young people in this

607
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 3: past decade who have grown up in this terrible environment

608
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 3: for Christian faith.

609
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think to your point on the For one,

610
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 1: I'm really happy you're doing a book like this. When

611
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: I started doing my initial research on some of this stuff,

612
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 1: I couldn't find in those books. I kept running into

613
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:05,479
Speaker 1: the Apologetics book. She's looking in the commentaries and like, okay, guys,

614
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 1: we've decided just to mid me.

615
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 2: I guess you know.

616
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: So you find some of the stuff in more technical

617
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: journal articles and things like that, but even there there

618
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, those technical journal articles are intended to be

619
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 1: pretty narrow, and so thinking through a broader scope of

620
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: this just hasn't really been done, not in a way

621
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 1: that's beyond apologetics. And I think what I kept running

622
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: into with the apologetics arguments was this sort of worse

623
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: better argument. You know, the Bible's laws are more just

624
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 1: than the Ancienteer Eastern laws, which once you start reading

625
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: the ancient Near Eastern laws, you're kind of like, well

626
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 1: that's you know, it's pretty low definition way to frame this,

627
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 1: like it's probably not even true exactly, but it's.

628
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 4: Is it really?

629
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 3: Is it really true that six years of slavery and

630
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 3: ancient Israel is better than three years of slavery and

631
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 3: ancient battleon Right? I don't see any evidence that that's

632
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: actually a true statement. Right, That doesn't make any sense.

633
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I think those to me, the apologetics books,

634
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: like I said, there, if you think about low definition,

635
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,399
Speaker 1: what we need is a high definition focus on this, right.

636
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,959
Speaker 1: It'll bring some of these texts into a different sort

637
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: of detail and understanding. Uh, and and really address it

638
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 1: from a non apologetics review.

639
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I want to be I want to

640
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 3: make sure I said this because I'm not an apologetics

641
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 3: teacher either. But when I was doing this research for

642
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: the article, I went to my apologetics professor friend, who

643
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 3: I hold in very high regard. He's read everything. Yeah,

644
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 3: so he gave me a long list of books, and

645
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 3: so I read them.

646
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 4: And so.

647
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: What I realized though, in working with Watts's argument, Watts

648
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 3: hasn't cited any of this. He's not read I wasn't

649
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 3: sure if he read any of it, and so when

650
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,280
Speaker 3: I did reach out to him and correspondence, he shared

651
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 3: the thing, No, I don't read any of it because

652
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 3: these are immoral texts and it's irrelevant whether there's this

653
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 3: worse better thing. And so then what I you noticed,

654
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 3: what I've had to do in this article is I

655
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 3: listed some of the things that I read. But I said,

656
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna I think that would be the right

657
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 3: way to actually argue with Watts.

658
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 4: I think that our.

659
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 3: Apologetics research in these days, since there's been these new atheists,

660
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 3: they've really done some great work and outstanding resource. But

661
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 3: it was not a way to actually get to a

662
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: biblical studies professor who's an expert in Torah. That wasn't

663
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 3: a way to disagree with him. So I had to

664
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 3: kind of what I went up doing, and this really

665
00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: helped me, is I need to argue with lots on

666
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 3: his own terms.

667
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: Yes.

668
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 3: I took the theory that he's been promoting for almost

669
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 3: a quarter of a century, his view of persuasion, and

670
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: I critiqued Watts's argument based on his approach to ancient persuasion.

671
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 3: And so that wound up kind of opening my eyes

672
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 3: to some of these things that yeah, there really is

673
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: something here that can help today's Christians that we haven't

674
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: gotten that because we do need these. I mean, we're

675
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 3: environment where we need the apologetics that we have. I mean,

676
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 3: I can't even imagine going into youth ministry right now

677
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 3: compared to when I was young, you know, when I

678
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 3: was getting out of seminary.

679
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree, I don't. I wouldn't say

680
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: that the apologetics are unnecessary. I would say that we've

681
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: done that work and there needs to be more work done.

682
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 1: I think there are areas here where we just haven't

683
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: really done this as well as we need to. And

684
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 1: that's probably on biblical studies, on Old Testament scholarship that's

685
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: on you know, that's that's kind of on a different

686
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 1: discipline than the apologetics guys. The apologetics guys have done

687
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: their work. Now it's kind of time for a new path.

688
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 1: And I think you're you're forging that, which I really appreciate.

689
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:14,280
Speaker 4: Good.

690
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 3: Now, here's what you just did, all right, James, Whether

691
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 3: those conversation's turned, you've helped. We've redeemed ourselves, I hope,

692
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 3: so that we're not going to get a whole bunch

693
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 3: of emails from everyone you know and Apologetics next week

694
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 3: telling us what's wrong with you, Biblical studies guys, throwing

695
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 3: us under.

696
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: The vice Listen, we've done the political speak and that

697
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 1: now we can avoid those emails. No, I think, you know,

698
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: as I look at it, I think the way I

699
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: framed it is really the way I think of it.

700
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: I think as I've talked with more and more people

701
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 1: about this since that one podcast I did with with

702
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: the Gentleman from Remedy Drive, he was not convinced by

703
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: the apologetics arguments.

704
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 2: That's what I was giving.

705
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: Oh, and you know so because when when he was

706
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: doing what he was doing, to his credit, he was

707
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: reading the Biblical text and he's kind of saying the

708
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: same thing that I understand wants to be saying doesn't

709
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: matter better or worse. They're both bad. It's like you know,

710
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 1: you know when you play that game with your kids,

711
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 1: you know, would you rather write, would you rather eat

712
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,359
Speaker 1: dirt or look at the bottom of my shoe? You're

713
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 1: going neither. Those are both horrible options. And that's sort

714
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: of the way he was seeing it. So the apologetics

715
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,960
Speaker 1: arguments were he understood them. They were just sawing platforms

716
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 1: because reading the Biblical text was those arguments weren't working

717
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: once it hit the ground in the text itself.

718
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

719
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: And and I think that the nagging question on it

720
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 3: lady's side, your everyday Christians, but why doesn't God just

721
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 3: say slavery's wrong?

722
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:54,439
Speaker 4: Right?

723
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 3: I mean it's just yeah, Like so there's there's a

724
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 3: couple of there's several moving parts. It's here, and it's

725
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 3: these nagging questions just won't go away. If we have

726
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 3: a clever argument. Well, I mean, we have to actually

727
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 3: get her hands dirty in a different way than we

728
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 3: have so far. Yeah, And so that's I mean, that's

729
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 3: where I want to come back positive and say, I'm

730
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 3: really I was so angry when I bought when I

731
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 3: opened Watts's book, because I mean it's.

732
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 4: A lot of money. I mean, yeah, one hundred and

733
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 4: forty dollars.

734
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, a price.

735
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

736
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 2: But the.

737
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 3: Once he once, I felt like I had to at

738
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 3: least for my own self before I even decided to

739
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,680
Speaker 3: do any research further than this, it began to turn

740
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 3: more and more light bulbs on for me as far

741
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 3: as wow. And so it's been a process for me

742
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 3: thinking through how if there's any of my students out

743
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,359
Speaker 3: here watching, have let some of my students down over

744
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 3: the past twenty years, and some things that I need

745
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 3: to do different and am doing different thanks to Watts,

746
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: I mean really yeah, yeah for goading me into it,

747
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 3: if you will. Now, I'm not doing what Watts wants

748
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 3: me to do. I'm kind of doing the opposite of

749
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: what he wants me to do. But that's what I

750
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 3: realized is we don't have to cross these out to

751
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 3: get that collateral damage. We have that collateral damage as

752
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 3: not just an individual, but as an evangelical reformed Christian

753
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 3: body of faith because we haven't owned the Old Testament

754
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 3: in the way we should. We have a little bit

755
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: of mar scene in us and even the traditions among

756
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 3: us that do own the Old Testament they tend to

757
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 3: use typology in Jesus and not actually get dirty. But

758
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 3: what we actually have to do is say, there's nothing

759
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 3: wrong with how the scriptures, you know, come to their

760
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 3: culmination in Christ, but we need to get our hands

761
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: dirty with God's protection of the most vulnerable people in

762
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 3: the ancient world. Yahaweh cares about girls, they matter to him.

763
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: Yahweh cares about slaves. He cares about justice, even to

764
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: the people that were very unpopular in ancient Israel.

765
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: Well, we're coming to the end of time here. I

766
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: want to I want to get one more question in.

767
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: And that is because as we're as we're looking sort

768
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: of at the gap between people listening to this podcast

769
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: episode in your book being published, right, there's a lot

770
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 1: of space there. I'm I'm sensing from you that maybe

771
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 1: you're not going to suggest the pastors just start preaching

772
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: on these passages willy nilly from the pulpit, But maybe

773
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 1: that's not the case. What would you suggest for a

774
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: pastor or a teacher or something like that, non seminary teacher,

775
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: like a lay teacher, a lay leader in the church,

776
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:08,479
Speaker 1: someone who's actually sort of guiding a congregation. What would

777
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: you suggest for them to do about this topic, these texts,

778
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 1: any approach to addressing him, addressing them that might be helpful.

779
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 3: Well, if they're if they're viewing your podcast, this article,

780
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 3: I've been given permission by the journal to give it

781
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 3: away free and so I think you have a link there,

782
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:38,399
Speaker 3: so at any pastor to click the link, any Christian leader,

783
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 3: any youth minister. I know that articles are kind of

784
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 3: a drag to read, but these, you know, this, this

785
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: is really important. And I want to say that what

786
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 3: I was happily surprised by is I kind of made

787
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 3: this whole push for you know, reaching people in church

788
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 3: with this, and I said, we really need videos to

789
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 3: go with this book, and so what and all my

790
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: other projects that Zondervan has shot videos, they charge a

791
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 3: fortune for them on the side, But this is this

792
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: is a true story.

793
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: Uh.

794
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 3: This book is that I've I'm working on called Resurrecting

795
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 3: the Bible of Jesus. Zondervin Reflective is giving the videos

796
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 3: away with the book. So like when Sunday buys a book,

797
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 3: there's no like extra million dollars you have to spend

798
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:28,240
Speaker 3: for the videos.

799
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 4: It's it's with the book.

800
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: So the idea then I'm hopeful that folks will, you know,

801
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 3: take the time to read it, but then teach.

802
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 4: A class on it.

803
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 3: Get the elders on board, and all of us need

804
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 3: to remember, you know, we've already lost a lot of

805
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 3: young people from the faith because we've not handled what

806
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 3: happens when you have a digital world like we have.

807
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 3: We also need to begin to really think how are

808
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 3: we going to instruct people in the Bible of Jesus

809
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 3: in a very serious way. So yes, I wouldn't want somebody,

810
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 3: you know, back to your question, really, Nelly, to go and.

811
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 4: Not know what to.

812
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 3: Say right right, to have to read these texts because

813
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 3: I mean our literature really, I had to do a

814
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 3: lot of work in ancient Ear Eastern texts and things

815
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 3: like this that it's not the normal path to like

816
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 3: the textbooks and reference books I've written.

817
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 4: It was a different path than that.

818
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 3: So anyway, I would encourage people, let's stop brushing these

819
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 3: things under the carpet. Let's get them out, because we

820
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 3: are creating collateral damage when we ignore these teachings that

821
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 3: we need to teach very good. Like you said, we

822
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 3: need help, and not all of us can do what

823
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 3: you did and get your PhD with Dick Averback. Right,

824
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 3: but like anybody that can, you know, buy a pie

825
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 3: and spend a couple hours with Dick. I mean that

826
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 3: would be a well spent albom.

827
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

828
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good afternoon.

829
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: It is a good afternoon. I agree. I think that overall.

830
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the work you're doing here. I think

831
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 1: it's great that they're making the article available. We will

832
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,879
Speaker 1: have the link to that mission notes, and we'll make

833
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: this as accessible as possible, because I guess my encouraging

834
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: would just be the folks like this is, even if

835
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: you don't preach on these texts next Sunday, Right, even

836
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: if you don't teach on these texts next Sunday, there's

837
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: no reason for you not to be looking at these

838
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: texts and thinking about these texts and actually trying to

839
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: study them for yourself so you have a better understanding

840
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: of it. I think that's the best place for folks

841
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 1: to start. I know that was a good place for

842
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: me to start.

843
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 3: Me too, Yeah, I mean I wasn't ready for it.

844
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 3: I mean I teach tour for a living every semester. Yeah,

845
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,000
Speaker 3: I mean that's what I do.

846
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, and.

847
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 3: Uh huh, I needed to say, whoa, I need to

848
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 3: help my students in a way that I haven't helped

849
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:23,919
Speaker 3: them so far.

850
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

851
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited about this work. Hopefully you'll come back

852
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: home when your book comes.

853
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 2: Out we can have another conversation.

854
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 3: But i'd love to do that my pleasure, James. I'm

855
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 3: really glad that you asked me, and I couldn't believe it.

856
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:42,959
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe you do this all the time because

857
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,799
Speaker 3: you're a podcaster, but I'm like, you know, I get

858
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 3: asked to do podcasts for my books, but like like

859
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 3: a podcast on an academic article, whoa, because.

860
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 4: It's an important thing.

861
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: This is the first one I've done, so you know,

862
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: it's the first one i've done. I thought it went

863
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: really well, and it's my sort of my I won't

864
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 1: call it my New Year's resolution, but this year twenty

865
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 1: twenty six, what we're really trying to do is have

866
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: folks like you on who've written more technical articles and

867
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: talk through those so that we can start bridging the

868
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: gap between academics and lay ministry. I think a lot

869
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 1: of times these articles you hear all the time, humanities

870
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 1: articles you get cited. You know, you like, only two

871
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:29,319
Speaker 1: percent gets sided or something ridiculous number like that. And

872
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:33,080
Speaker 1: so I think there's a lot of well of good

873
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,720
Speaker 1: work in the articles that come out, particularly in Jets,

874
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: Trinity Journal, you know, some of those other you know,

875
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:44,239
Speaker 1: sort of standard journals that academics are aware of, but

876
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: that content doesn't disseminate itself out to lay people in

877
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 1: a way that is particularly helpful. So yeah, you're the

878
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 1: first one I've had on. I thought this went really well,

879
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: and I appreciate it you taking a flyer on it

880
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: and coming on and discussing your article.

881
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 2: I think it's great.

882
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 3: It's a pleasure because this topic is really important, and

883
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 3: so you know, it was I have a full research

884
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 3: plate besides this. But once Wats's thing came out and

885
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 3: I realized what's going on, and I did a couple

886
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 3: of venues and then I started doing more venues where

887
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 3: I'm talking to leaders, and I said, no, I need

888
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 3: to make room for this. This is something you know,

889
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 3: do the videos to the accessible book, the whole thing.

890
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 1: I agree. I agree. Well, Gary, thanks for being on

891
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: the show. Like I said, everybody, the links will be

892
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 1: on the show page. You can find Gary's you have

893
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,120
Speaker 1: a faculty page. I'm sure at Aaron University where you teach,

894
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: you have Carpenter's Student to us is in the middle

895
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: there Carpenter'student dot com that will take people right to

896
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,400
Speaker 1: your substack where they can get more information. And I

897
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 1: just encourage the people about for resurrecting the Bible of

898
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,840
Speaker 1: Jesus that'll be coming out next year them.

899
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, in the beginning of twenty twenty seven. And you know,

900
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 3: my substack is free, so if somebody gets on there,

901
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,120
Speaker 3: I have some other things coming up before that, but

902
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 3: in the fall especially, we'll be ramping up towards the

903
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,279
Speaker 3: release of that and have some you know, some things

904
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 3: that people can begin to get on board with.

905
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 2: Excellent.

906
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: Well, check the show notes on this one more probably

907
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: more importantly than a lot of the other episodes where

908
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,040
Speaker 1: I just have a book link. This one's going to

909
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 1: have multiple places where you can get more information on

910
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: this topic. So I just encourage everybody check the show notes,

911
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: flick through on those links, find the articles, might start start.

912
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 2: Getting into this subject. It's an important one.

913
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 1: And I know I'm kind of an old Testament geek,

914
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 1: and so you know, coming from me, that may maybe

915
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: that colors this a little bit, but I really think

916
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: this is just a biblical studies issue, and so if

917
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: you're interested in understanding the Bible better, this is an

918
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: issue you really need to dig into. So we'll leave

919
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:01,720
Speaker 1: it there again, Thank you Gary for being on the show,

920
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 1: and we'll catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking

921
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: Christian Take Care. I just want to take a second

922
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership

923
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go

924
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith

925
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer,

926
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.