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Speaker 1: Life Audio Living Beyond a Fence. How do we actually

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Speaker 1: navigate the bitterness, the resentment, the forgiveness that we need

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Speaker 1: to go through so that we can get the healing

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Speaker 1: that we need. That is what we are going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about in this week's episode. Hello, Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: ladies and gents, and welcome to this week's episode of

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Speaker 1: The Botan Beloved Podcast. As always it Too Girl Kirby

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Speaker 1: Kelly back at it again. And this has been like

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Speaker 1: the season of guests. It has been so fun having

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Speaker 1: so many different people on to talk about their ministries,

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Speaker 1: their pain points, what God has brought them through and

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Speaker 1: from and delivered them from. And today I have the

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Speaker 1: amazing honor of having a friend of mine on named

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Speaker 1: Yanna Janey Connor. She wrote a phenomenal book. I read

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Speaker 1: it a couple of weeks ago, and it's called Living

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Speaker 1: Beyond Offense, Doing the hard work of Forgiveness God's Way

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Speaker 1: and I love it. I love this topic. This is

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Speaker 1: something I feel like I've talked about on the podcast

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Speaker 1: like way way way back when, just about my own

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Speaker 1: stories of walking through forgiveness, releasing people from that and

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Speaker 1: actually knowing how to do it and how to live

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Speaker 1: that out, but I think that Yanna just completely captures

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Speaker 1: it through her own book and her own story, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to dive into that today and I'm excited

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Speaker 1: about it. So I hope you are if you did

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Speaker 1: click on this video or audio however you're listening. But Yana,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Can you just introduce yourself to

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Speaker 1: those who might not know who you are and let

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Speaker 1: them know who you are, what you do, what you're

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Speaker 1: passionate about, all the things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Hey, thank you, Kirby, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: I'm so glad to be here. Yeah, my name's Yanna

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Speaker 2: Today Connor. I am originally from Saint Louis, Missouri, but

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Speaker 2: I reside in Durham, North Carolina. I feel like people

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Speaker 2: need to know I'm actually from the Midwest, though from

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Speaker 2: Saint Louis, so they don't think that I'm some sort

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Speaker 2: of Southern belle, because I unfortunately am not. I've met

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Speaker 2: a few of them, they're great, but that's not who

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Speaker 2: I am. And so I have been a ministry for

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Speaker 2: the past twenty years. I've served in the college contexts

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Speaker 2: doing college ministry, and then I've also served in a church.

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Speaker 2: I actually serve at a church right now as the

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Speaker 2: adult ministry director, and I really enjoy that job as

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Speaker 2: we seek to develop a discipleship making culture in the

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Speaker 2: Durham Hillsboro Medben area. I also just care a lot

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Speaker 2: about people thinking well about faith and culture and how

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Speaker 2: the two things intersect. And so I would say I'm

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Speaker 2: often doing Romans twelve one work helping people to not

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Speaker 2: be conformed to the ways of this world, but to

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Speaker 2: be transformed by the renewing of their mind. So trading

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Speaker 2: a secular worldview for a biblical one, and whether I'm

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Speaker 2: preaching writing, that's really my emphasis is like, how do

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Speaker 2: we make that trade of a secular worldview for a

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Speaker 2: biblical worldview so that we can bring our lives into

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Speaker 2: alignment with the Lord. And so I would say that's

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Speaker 2: what I'm passionate about, seeing people bring their lives in

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Speaker 2: alignment with the Lord. And I'm passionate about doing that

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Speaker 2: kind of work myself in my own life.

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Speaker 1: That is amazing. I say this all the time here

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Speaker 1: on the podcast that like, my favorite chapter in the

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Speaker 1: entire Bible is a Romans twelve. So knowing that that's

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Speaker 1: your heartbeat too, I'm like, yes, it's so good. It's

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Speaker 1: so practical too, just a practical way of like, here's

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Speaker 1: how you live your life as a Christian, here's what

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Speaker 1: you do now that you've been transformed. So I think

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Speaker 1: that's beautiful that, like you said, discipleship, that's like that's

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Speaker 1: the nail on the head right there. I feel like

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Speaker 1: with that verse in that chapter in the Bible. But

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Speaker 1: let's talk about your book. I am so excited to

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Speaker 1: dive into this topic of forgiveness releasing offense because, as

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Speaker 1: I just said, it is something that I've had to

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Speaker 1: walk through and navigate. And I specifically remember that when

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Speaker 1: I was a freshman in college that I dated this guy, right, well,

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Speaker 1: I dated this guy, and not that there's anything wrong

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Speaker 1: with him, but it's one of those things where it

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Speaker 1: was like he really betrayed me in many ways. And

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Speaker 1: I remember just sitting with the Lord on that and

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Speaker 1: not wanting to be mad at this person. Right I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to feel the bitterness and the resentment and

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Speaker 1: the anger and all the things I was feeling. But

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Speaker 1: I didn't know how to forgive. I didn't know what

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Speaker 1: that looked like for me. And I'm sure that there

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Speaker 1: are many people who are listening today and people who

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Speaker 1: are going to be picking up your book, and I'll

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Speaker 1: link it down below everybody, so y'all can click and

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Speaker 1: get it at it to car use that Amazon Christmas

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Speaker 1: money I know that you got. But it was one

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Speaker 1: of those things that I was like, how do I

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Speaker 1: actually forgive? Because Christ commands us to it talks about

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Speaker 1: it all throughout scripture of how to forgive or why

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Speaker 1: to forgive or we should forgive. But it's one thing

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Speaker 1: to read that, it's another thing to actually have to

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Speaker 1: do it. Whether it is just like a one time offense,

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Speaker 1: whether it was something really big, a huge betrayal, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but I know that you talk about it

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Speaker 1: in your book about your experience of just walking out forgiveness,

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Speaker 1: and you even talk about how your father was kind

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Speaker 1: of like your first teacher in forgiveness. So I would

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Speaker 1: love for you to just start from wherever you want

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Speaker 1: with maybe where this book came from in your life

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Speaker 1: and why you why you feel the need to write

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Speaker 1: a book on the topic of living beyond a fence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one this story or this book really

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Speaker 2: came from my own wrestle and struggle in my walk

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Speaker 2: with the Lord, and so like when I came to

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Speaker 2: know the Lord when I was in college, I knew immediately,

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Speaker 2: like that I needed to break up with my boyfriend.

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Speaker 2: I knew that I needed to find Christian community. But

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Speaker 2: I also knew that I needed to forgive my dad.

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Speaker 2: Like one of the things I understood about Jesus and

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Speaker 2: what it meant to be a Christian was that you

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Speaker 2: are a forgiving person. And that was before you know,

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Speaker 2: I heard a sermon, I read a book on it.

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Speaker 2: I just knew intuitively that that's what I needed to do.

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Speaker 2: But I struggled with it for the same reasons that

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Speaker 2: you just described. That that pain, that anger, And I

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Speaker 2: would say that we can't really get to a place

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Speaker 2: of being able to forgive someone until we really feel

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Speaker 2: the pain of what they did. But I think I

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Speaker 2: personally would avoid that pain because I didn't know where

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Speaker 2: it would.

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Speaker 3: Take me, right. I didn't know if I let myself.

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Speaker 2: Feel illnes like, will my anger get out of control?

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Speaker 2: Will I crash out, you know, like on my dad

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Speaker 2: or crash out on somebody else? Like I just wasn't

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Speaker 2: sure where that anger would would take me, and so

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Speaker 2: that was really scary for me. But then once I

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Speaker 2: gave my anger.

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Speaker 3: It's due, it's space.

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Speaker 2: I would go to church and I hear sermons about forgiveness,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't know how. And one of the things

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Speaker 2: that was really life changing for me in my journey

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Speaker 2: in ministry was a sermon I heard on the Great Commission.

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Speaker 2: And you know, if you've been in Christian spaces, like

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Speaker 2: we're all about the Great Commission, you know Matthew twenty

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Speaker 2: eight nineteen, like go you therefore make disciples, baptizing them,

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Speaker 2: and then he says teaching them how to obey? And

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Speaker 2: depending on whatever translation you have, I think this particular

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Speaker 2: pastor preacher was saying that it's how to obey. And

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Speaker 2: I had grew up in in a context where they

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Speaker 2: were teaching me, you know, what to obey. They were

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Speaker 2: teaching me why to obey it, but the how part

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Speaker 2: was really missing.

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Speaker 3: And as I.

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Speaker 2: Would go back through Matthew's gospel, I see that Jesus

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Speaker 2: is teaching people how to obey. He's not just putting

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Speaker 2: before them commands, but he's putting before them practical how tos.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, as I was wrestling with my

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Speaker 2: own journey or forgiveness, it was like, I know that

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Speaker 2: I'm supposed to do this.

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Speaker 3: I know even why I'm supposed to do this, but

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Speaker 3: I actually.

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Speaker 2: Don't know how. And then it was even like, how

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Speaker 2: do I know if I've actually obeyed Jesus's command to forgive?

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Speaker 2: Is it when I'm able to forget what happened, you know?

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Speaker 2: Or is it when I'm able to ignore? Or is

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Speaker 2: it when I'm able to not feel the pain of

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Speaker 2: it anymore? That when my dad calls me that I'm

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Speaker 2: no longer like frustrated, you know, but I'm like excited

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Speaker 2: to receive his call. Like what actually is is forgiveness

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Speaker 2: and its work. And so in the book, that is

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Speaker 2: the question that I'm trying to answer, is like how

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Speaker 2: do we actually do the work of forgiveness? And that

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Speaker 2: language is intentional because forgiveness is work, and it's not

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Speaker 2: just something that we do one time, you know, but

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Speaker 2: it's a work that we choose to live out daily

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Speaker 2: in the relationship with the person that we've chosen to

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Speaker 2: forgive and even reconcile with, if you know, reconciliation is possible.

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Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned that forgiveness is not just

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Speaker 1: sometimes this one time thing. Sometimes it can be you know, Hey,

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Speaker 1: I forgive you for running the red light when it

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Speaker 1: was supposed to be me, Like, I forgive you for

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Speaker 1: cutting me off in the grocery line, whatever you know,

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Speaker 1: I forgive you for saying this thing. There are some

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Speaker 1: offenses that are easier to forgive and just let go

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Speaker 1: after that moment, but there are also time where it

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Speaker 1: is an ongoing process because of the deep hurt, because

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Speaker 1: of the deep pain, because of the deep offenses, and

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Speaker 1: forgiveness doesn't look like a one time thing, but it

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Speaker 1: looks like this journey, this process, this continual surrender to Jesus,

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Speaker 1: even but I would like to start with even defining

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Speaker 1: what forgiveness is like biblically or how Jesus models it

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Speaker 1: and shows us to do, because I think that there

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Speaker 1: might be people who have confusion around what forgiveness means.

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Speaker 1: Does it mean that, oh, what you did to me

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Speaker 1: doesn't really affect me and it doesn't matter. Or is

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Speaker 1: forgiveness bigger than that? What's the purpose of it? What's

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Speaker 1: the point of it? What is forgiveness? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I love that. I love that.

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Speaker 2: What's the purpose of up forgiveness? So we'll start with

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Speaker 2: what is forgiveness? So, after sort of surveying the scriptures.

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Speaker 2: Looking at you know, all the references on forgiveness, the

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Speaker 2: definition seem to kind of rise to the surface for

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Speaker 2: me was forgiveness is a merciful decision to release an

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Speaker 2: offender of their debt and to not retaliate against them

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Speaker 2: in anger. And so it's a merciful decision, meaning we

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Speaker 2: don't forgive people because they deserve it, right, that's not

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Speaker 2: why we forgive them. We forgive people because when we

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Speaker 2: didn't deserve it, Jesus forgave, forgave us. But it's also

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Speaker 2: a decision. It's a decision. So it's not a feeling,

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Speaker 2: you know, but it is. It is a feeling, and

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Speaker 2: it's a decision to release an offender of their debt.

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Speaker 2: And so the only analogy that Jesus uses for forgiveness

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Speaker 2: is debt. And I think what he's communicating there is

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Speaker 2: that when someone sends against you, they rob you of something.

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Speaker 2: They take something from you, whether it's your sense of security, safety,

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Speaker 2: whether it's actually a material thing, material thing, or just

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Speaker 2: even robbing you of being able to continue to enjoy

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Speaker 2: the relationship as you were before, Like they stole something

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Speaker 2: from you, And when you forgive them, you're saying you

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Speaker 2: don't have to pay me back, meaning you don't have

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Speaker 2: to restore my sense of safety. You don't have to

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Speaker 2: restore my sense of security, and you you don't have

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Speaker 2: to pay me back the material thing that that you

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Speaker 2: stole for me, Like I release you of your responsibility

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Speaker 2: to pay me back. Now, isn't there responsibility pay us back?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely like it is. But we're gonna release them of

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Speaker 2: that responsibility to do that. And then we're saying, I'm

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Speaker 2: not gonna retaliate against you in anger, meaning I'm not

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Speaker 2: gonna try to take something from you.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to seek vengeance.

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Speaker 2: I'm not gonna try to get my lick back or

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Speaker 2: make sure that you're in as much pain as as

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Speaker 2: I am in and so so that's what forgiveness means.

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Speaker 2: But it does not mean reconciling with that person. It

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Speaker 2: does not mean trusting them again, and it does not

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Speaker 2: kind of like hit a reset button on the relationship.

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Speaker 2: Reconciliation and trusting someone again, those are different parts of

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Speaker 2: what we hope would be a restorative process. But sometimes

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Speaker 2: if that person's not repentive, if they walk away from

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Speaker 2: the relationship, you know, then then reconciliation isn't isn't possible

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Speaker 2: that person's abusive, We wouldn't recommend I don't think Jesus

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Speaker 2: would recommend reconciliation in that. And you definitely shouldn't trust

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Speaker 2: someone again. And I think that's what's hard actually for

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Speaker 2: people who are quote unquote offenders when they you know,

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Speaker 2: someone sends against you for them, they expect when you

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Speaker 2: say I forgive you to that means I'm reconciling with

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Speaker 2: you again and I trust you again. And it's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: that's not actually what that means. But I love your

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Speaker 2: question what is the purpose of forgiveness? Because the purpose

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Speaker 2: of forgiveness, I think it's for us to put the

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Speaker 2: Gospel on display. It's like for us to image Christ

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Speaker 2: to the world, to image his compassion, to image his mercy.

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Speaker 2: And our hope should be that in forgiving someone that

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Speaker 2: it would cause them to repent, that it would cause

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Speaker 2: them not only to seek to restore their relationship with us,

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Speaker 2: but also to restore their relationship with God. Because when

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Speaker 2: someone sins against us, they also sin against God. And

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Speaker 2: so for me this has been really transformative because I

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Speaker 2: don't just look at my someone who sins against me

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Speaker 2: as an offender or as an enemy, but I also

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Speaker 2: look at them as someone who is either far from

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Speaker 2: God or someone who is misaligned with God. And so

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Speaker 2: in forgiving them, it's a peace offering that sort of

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Speaker 2: says like, Hey, be reconciled to God, come back into

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Speaker 2: the fold, bring your life back into alignment with God.

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Speaker 2: And so even when someone sends against me and I'm

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Speaker 2: confronting them, I'm not going with this posture of like

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Speaker 2: let me get something off of my chest, Like I'm

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Speaker 2: going with this posture of like, hey, what's going on

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Speaker 2: in your heart that caused you to do that? And

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Speaker 2: how you get back on track not just with me,

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Speaker 2: but also back on track with God.

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Speaker 1: I think that's so good because that has been the

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Speaker 1: same lesson that I feel like the Lord has taught

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Speaker 1: me over the years too. With forgiveness, I specifically remember

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Speaker 1: that there was a person in my life who committed

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Speaker 1: a very severe offense against me. And it's one of

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Speaker 1: those things that if I were to lay it out

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Speaker 1: on paper for anyone to read, they'd be like, why

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Speaker 1: would you forgive someone like that? How could you forgive

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Speaker 1: someone who would do that to you? And for a

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Speaker 1: long time I didn't know how to forgive that person,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to being a Christian understanding the Gospel,

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Speaker 1: but still having the feeling of injustice of this was

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Speaker 1: something that happened against me that shouldn't have happened. It

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Speaker 1: was it was hard for me to balance, well, what

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Speaker 1: does forgiveness really look like in this context? And I

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Speaker 1: remember the Lord taking me through Romans twelve to bring

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Speaker 1: it all back and reading that verse where it talks

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Speaker 1: about how vengeance is the Lord's and I remember reading

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Speaker 1: that and God immediately just like clocking me in that

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Speaker 1: moment and him being like what does this mean? And

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Speaker 1: me having this realization like vengeance is yours Lord, Thank God,

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Speaker 1: Thank God that you are God of vengeance. I love

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Speaker 1: that you are a God of vengeance, right like I

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Speaker 1: felt like David in the Psalms when he's like, good's

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Speaker 1: my enemies, you know what I mean. It was one

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Speaker 1: of those kind of moments. But I remember the Lord,

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Speaker 1: you know, after me having that moment with him kind

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Speaker 1: of checked me in a way that I think that

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Speaker 1: he could because I was I was maturing in my faith,

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Speaker 1: I was growing in my faith. I wanted to forgive,

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Speaker 1: and the Lord showing me through that yet like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm the God of vengeance, but being a Christian, like

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Speaker 1: having been transformed by the Gospel, being my disciple, Kirby,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you much rather this person experience my grace and

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Speaker 1: forgiveness and be transformed by that so that they actually

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Speaker 1: accept responsibility for what they have done and they live

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Speaker 1: out repentance. And it was one of those like Jesus

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Speaker 1: clocked my tee kind of moments where I was like, I, oh,

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Speaker 1: my goodness, Like it just it completely shifted this Like

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Speaker 1: I think for some of us, we can be so

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Speaker 1: emotionally fueled in moments where we've been offended and I

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Speaker 1: get it, Like I'm the first person to say I

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Speaker 1: get it. I get it. And that doesn't constitute what

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Speaker 1: a person did to you was right. It doesn't make

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Speaker 1: it fair, it doesn't it doesn't negate any anything that

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Speaker 1: had happened to you. But I think as Christians, God

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Speaker 1: does this really beautiful work of compelling us to have

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Speaker 1: a heart of mercy where it would only make sense

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Speaker 1: by the world's standards to have this sense of vengeance.

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Speaker 1: So I love that you point that out and you

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Speaker 1: write about that in your book. Is just the importance

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Speaker 1: of the Gospel, of understanding the Gospel, and how that

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Speaker 1: not only shows the forgiveness story of Christ with us,

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Speaker 1: God with us, humanity broken humanity who needs to be

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Speaker 1: reconciled unto Him, but how that is like the thing

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Speaker 1: that that purposes us and motivates us and enables us

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Speaker 1: to forgive other people. But I'd love to hear too, Sinse,

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Speaker 1: because I'm sure that there are people who are listening

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Speaker 1: today who are in that place of I want to forgive,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like I have all these feelings that

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Speaker 1: won't let me. I feel the bitterness, I feel the resentment,

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Speaker 1: I feel the rage, I feel the injustice. I want to,

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Speaker 1: but I don't feel like I can forgive. What encouragement

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Speaker 1: or hope or maybe even experience in your own life

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Speaker 1: could you draw from to just encourage people today who

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Speaker 1: might just be in that place of I want to,

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Speaker 1: but I also don't feel like I can or want to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that in some sense, Jesus understands

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Speaker 2: that feeling, and so Jesus in the garden of Gessimite

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Speaker 2: he is wrestling with what it would take in order

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Speaker 2: for him to provide forgiveness for the sins of the world,

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Speaker 2: and three times he prays. Three times, he goes back

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Speaker 2: to the Father and says, hey, if there's any other

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Speaker 2: way for us to do this, you know, I would

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Speaker 2: desire for this cup to pass from me.

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Speaker 3: But the answer is no.

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Speaker 2: And I think what that teaches me one is that

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Speaker 2: Jesus even understands the pain that one a person has

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Speaker 2: to endure in order to forgive someone else. And Jesus

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Speaker 2: he does what's necessary to provide forgiveness or the sins

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Speaker 2: of the world. But the other thing that it makes

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Speaker 2: very clear to me is that when we forgive someone,

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Speaker 2: we are also doing the.

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Speaker 3: Work of dying to ourselves.

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Speaker 2: And so people have asked me, you know, y'alla, what

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Speaker 2: are some of the greatest barriers to forgiveness? And I've

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Speaker 2: been saying, like pain, anger, you know, forgetting the gospel,

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Speaker 2: cultural mantras, all those things. But I think what it

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Speaker 2: really comes down.

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Speaker 3: To is we have to die to ourselves.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes forgiveness feels like an act of treason against

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Speaker 2: ourselves because it's like this person sinned against me, like

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Speaker 2: in a significant way. How could I forgive them? How

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Speaker 2: could I just let it go? You know, so to

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Speaker 2: speak and not hold them accountable. Now, I do think

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Speaker 2: that there are spaces where we can still forgive someone

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Speaker 2: and hold them accountable. Like those two things don't have

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Speaker 2: to be mutually exclusive. We can still do both of

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Speaker 2: them things at the same time. But I love what

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Speaker 2: you say you brought out here is that like no forgive,

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Speaker 2: like vengeance is the Lord's and so how do we

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Speaker 2: entrust the Lord with our case? And so I love

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Speaker 2: Sign thirty seven because I don't talk about this person

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Speaker 2: in the book, but it's the hardest person that I've

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Speaker 2: ever had to forgive. And it was like it just

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Speaker 2: felt like they were getting away with it, that they

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Speaker 2: had sinned against me, that send against our family, and

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Speaker 2: they were just gonna, you know, go off into the

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Speaker 2: sunset and be okay. And I remember coming to Sign

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Speaker 2: thirty seven and it's saying, fret not yourself over evil doors.

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Speaker 2: And then later he'll say, don't fret yourself over them,

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Speaker 2: even when it seems like they prosper in their way.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why is because he says, God will

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Speaker 2: cause your righteousness and your justice to shine like the

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Speaker 2: new day's sun. So for the person who's like I

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Speaker 2: got all these feelings, one, I want you to remember

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Speaker 2: forgiveness is a decision two You remember like Jesus identifies

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Speaker 2: with those feelings, but also know that the work of

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Speaker 2: forgiveness will require you to die to yourself. It will

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Speaker 2: require you to go against the grain of what you're feeling.

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Speaker 2: But just know that God does care about what you feel,

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Speaker 2: and he is going to vindicate you. He is going

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Speaker 2: to cause your righteousness and your justice to shine like

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Speaker 2: the noonday sun. And I love that he says it's

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Speaker 2: your righteousness, it's your justice, because he's personally invested in

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Speaker 2: what has happened to you and bringing about your restoration.

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Speaker 1: That's so good. I love that that he vindicates us

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Speaker 1: as much as he is like a god of vengeance

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Speaker 1: and mercy, two sides to the same coin. I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: because there there might be an opportunity for someone after

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Speaker 1: this podcast, after spending time with the Lord and praying

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Speaker 1: and processing through this, that they're able to go to

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Speaker 1: the person who had offended them and be able to

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Speaker 1: forgive them and have that moment of reconciliation. Who knows

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Speaker 1: like the best case scenario could happen out of that,

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Speaker 1: but there might be people who have experienced offenses betrayals

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Speaker 1: and hurts where they know one maybe they can't go

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Speaker 1: to that person and have that conversation of forgiveness. But two,

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Speaker 1: maybe that person, even after having that conversation, they know

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Speaker 1: that they're never gonna get the apology, They're never gonna

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Speaker 1: get the reconciliation that they want. What would you say

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Speaker 1: to those people who might be like, I want to forgive,

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Speaker 1: but I know I'm just not gonna get the apology.

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Speaker 1: Or maybe the person who offended me lives on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the world now, or is what the

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Speaker 1: is in heaven now or some here else. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like they might not be here anymore. So do

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Speaker 1: does forgiveness require going to the other person? Does it

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Speaker 1: require harboring the response we want? And what do we

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Speaker 1: do when we don't get that or if we don't

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Speaker 1: get that? Would you saying this because it's very real

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Speaker 1: and that might be the very thing that's stopping people

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Speaker 1: from moving forward in having a conversation that they feel

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Speaker 1: is necessary to have.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I remember someone saying this to me

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Speaker 3: and it stuck with me.

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Speaker 2: Forgiveness is a work we do before the Lord and

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Speaker 2: even Jesus when he's.

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Speaker 3: On the cross.

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Speaker 2: He's doing that in obedience to the Lord, to the Father.

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Speaker 2: He even says like, hey, Father, I've done everything that

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Speaker 2: you've commanded me to do right and so like we

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Speaker 2: and then he asks me where to glorify his name,

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Speaker 2: as he's glorified.

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Speaker 3: God's name in the earth.

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Speaker 2: And so when we are doing the work forgiveness, we

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Speaker 2: can if our offender is before us or not. We

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Speaker 2: need to turn our eyes to the Lord, because we

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Speaker 2: are doing this in obedience, in worship to the Lord,

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Speaker 2: and in trust to the Lord. Because it's like I

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Speaker 2: am I am forgiving them Lord, because one, I trust

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Speaker 2: you to heal me, and I trust you to to

436
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: execute justice on my behalf. Now I don't know what

437
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 2: that's gonna look like, but I trust you to do that.

438
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 2: So I don't need to get my look back, Like

439
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 2: I don't need to retaliate against this person or make

440
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: sure that they feel the consequences of their sin. Like

441
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: I'm gonna entrust that to you, God, because you are

442
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: wiser and you are better than me, and so I'm

443
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,199
Speaker 2: gonna trust your wisdom in in that. And so I

444
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: think that's I think that's one part of it is

445
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: just remembering that Forgiveness is something that we do before

446
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: the Lord, and we do it in obedience, in worship

447
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 2: and trust of God.

448
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:51,160
Speaker 3: But I do know that it's.

449
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: Painful when you vulnerably go to someone and say, man,

450
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 2: you hurt me in these ways and I forgive you,

451
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: and they look at you and they say I don't care,

452
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: or that never happened. They gaslight you, they manipulate you

453
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: into thinking that it wasn't actually.

454
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 3: Their fault but your fault.

455
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: Like I understand that kind of pain. And when that happens,

456
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 2: we we grieve, you know, we grieve because one like

457
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 2: that person is delusional, you know, if they have done

458
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: something wrong, they're not in touch with reality.

459
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 3: But even Scripture.

460
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: Tells us, like you know, someone says against you, go

461
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 2: to them telling their faults.

462
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 3: If they listen, meaning if they.

463
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: Confess that what they did was wrong, and if they

464
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: repent of it, then you you've gained You've gained that

465
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: person back. But if they don't, Scripture tells us to

466
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 2: go and get two witnesses, and it's it's so that

467
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: there can be some verification of our complaint. And what

468
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,959
Speaker 2: we might find in that is that someone's able to

469
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: mediate that and bring that person to a place of

470
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 2: understanding they're wrong, or they may continue to persist in

471
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 2: saying that they did nothing wrong. And if they do that,

472
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: then then at that point we have to make some

473
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 2: decisions about how we move forward with them relationally. And

474
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: Jesus even instructs us in that way in Matthew eighteen.

475
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 2: He says, go to get you to witnesses and then

476
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: go to the church. In some situations, that's not going

477
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,359
Speaker 2: to be possible, because I mean, they're not a believer

478
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,479
Speaker 2: and all that. But it's like you tried, you tried

479
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: to make an effort to reconcile, but if they don't listen,

480
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: He then says, treat them like a gentile and a

481
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: tax collector. And essentially that means like restructure or maybe

482
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: even end the relationship.

483
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 3: And that's painful. That's painful.

484
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 2: That's painful for us because this is someone we love,

485
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: this is someone we trust, this is someone we actually

486
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: want to be in relationship with. But in those moment moments,

487
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 2: we grieve and we pray for them, and we wait

488
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: and hope, you know, we wait and hope that they'll

489
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 2: they'll come to understand that what they did was wrong

490
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 2: and that they will repent of it, but until then

491
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: we withhold relationship. You know, we set boundaries, right, so

492
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: the same access they had to us before, they don't

493
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 2: have to us moving forward.

494
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 3: And what I love about.

495
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 2: Matthew eighteen is that it says at the end that

496
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: whatever you loose in heaven will be loose, you know,

497
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: or whatever is loose on earth will be loose in heaven.

498
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: Whatever is bound will be bound in heaven. And it's

499
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: God saying like when you follow these steps, like I'm

500
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: with you, I'm with you in the decision that was made.

501
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: I got your back in that.

502
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: And that's been so much comfort to me because I've

503
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 2: had to end relationships or restructure relationships and that's painful

504
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: and I can feel a lot of guilt about that,

505
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: but I have to remember, like one, I'm doing this

506
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 2: one so that they would see their sin and they

507
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 2: would turn back to God.

508
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 3: And then too, I'm also doing this.

509
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,239
Speaker 2: Because I'm doing this in obedience to scripture and what

510
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: it prescribes.

511
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 3: And God is with me.

512
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: You know, when we do things God's way, we can

513
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: have confidence that God is with us in the decisions

514
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: that we make. But if that person doesn't acknowledge it.

515
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: Our next step is to grief yet another offense, and

516
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: it's something else to forgive them of. But we probably

517
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: wouldn't continue in relationship with that person in the same

518
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: way or or at all, depending on the circumstances or

519
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 2: the relationship.

520
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's wise, y'alla. And I love that you even

521
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: bring that scripture up because it is that verse word

522
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: says and where two or more gathered God is in

523
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: their mets. That's where we get that scripture from. And

524
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: so I love you. I love the fact that you said,

525
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: when you do it God's way, God is with you.

526
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: And so I think that is the one thing, the

527
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 1: very thing that if nothing else works out, that we

528
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: can hold on too with confidence hope, knowing that He

529
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: is with us, he is for us, like he is

530
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 1: going to work all things out for good. We don't

531
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: have to stress, we don't have to strive, we don't

532
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: have to struggle to try and manufacture a result or

533
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: a reconciliation. But we can simply release that to the

534
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: Lord and trust what he can do and the healing

535
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: that he can bring from that. I mean, there are

536
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: going to be steps that we have to take in

537
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: our own healing, and it sucks. It sucks when it's like, well,

538
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: now I have this other responsibility, this other thing to navigate.

539
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: But the beauty is is that even in those instances,

540
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: something good can come from it, especially when you do

541
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: it God's way. I don't wish what I have gone

542
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: through on my worst enemy, right, And I think many

543
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: of us, especially those of us in Christ, can say

544
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: that we have been through things. We've been hurt by people.

545
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: We live in a broken world, right, and we all

546
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: need Jesus. But the beautiful thing about about God is

547
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: that throughout the whole biblical meta narrative, we see him

548
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: as a redeemer, and we can have the same confident

549
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: hope that if He can do that in all of Scripture,

550
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: in all of these different scenarios, within all these people,

551
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: all these cultures, all these contexts, that He can do

552
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: that with us, even with this big problem or small problem,

553
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: whatever it looks like. So I just even want to

554
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: leave that as a final encouragement to everyone listening today. Yanna,

555
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: there is there any last thing that you want to

556
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: say to everyone who's listening. I know there's so much

557
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: that you write about in your book, and people can

558
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: pick up your book and they can read it, and

559
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: I'll link that down below and we'll get to all

560
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: that in a moment. But is there something of that

561
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: You're like, I just want to say this one last

562
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 1: thing and make sure that people know this one thing

563
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: before we wrap up.

564
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one thing that's kind of been starring

565
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: in my heart. And I love what you just said

566
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: there because it kind of pained it for me. In

567
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 2: the last section of the book, we talk about how

568
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: to trust again, like after someone send against you, and

569
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: how when someone sends against you it can bring up

570
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: all these questions. It's like can I trust this person again?

571
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: Can I trust anyone? Can I trust myself again? And

572
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: then it's like can I trust God? And one of

573
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: the things that I am learning to be careful of

574
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: is to not shift blame when someone sends against me,

575
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 2: to not shift the blame from the person who sinned

576
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: against me to God. Where you know, questions where I

577
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: would ask like why did they do this? Now I'm

578
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: asking like why did God let this happen? Right? Or

579
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 2: even shifting blame from that person to myself?

580
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 3: Right, not how could they do this? But how could

581
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 3: I let this happen?

582
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: And it's and I'm learning, like, how do I leave

583
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: the sin of what happened with that person and not

584
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: let it bleed over into my relationship with God or

585
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 2: even in sort of like the trust that I have

586
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: in my ability to make decisions and to make good

587
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: choices about people, or to bleed over in my ability

588
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 2: to trust other people. And so in the book, we

589
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: talk a lot about separating the past from the present.

590
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: And for anyone who's seeking to live beyond a fence,

591
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: you're not gonna just have to do work with that

592
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: person who offended you, But it's every person who comes

593
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: after that moment you're gonna have to learn how to

594
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: separate the past from the present. And like you said,

595
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: it's not fair that you have to do this kind

596
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: of work. It's frustrating that you have to do this

597
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: kind of work, but it is the reality that comes

598
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: with living in a broken and fallen world. And what

599
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: I have enjoyed about walking with Jesus is that he

600
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: is with me in every ache, in every pain, and

601
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 2: in every offense that I've experienced, to heal me, to

602
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: give me wisdom, and to restore restore me. With him,

603
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: there is plentiful redemption and so everything that's broken he

604
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: can make whole.

605
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: I love that. That is so good. Y'all need to

606
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: clip that one part, write that one part down in

607
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: your Bible. It's so good. Well, Yanna, where can people

608
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 1: check out your book? Because I know it's out, it's

609
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: available now, And where can people check you out and

610
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: follow you and everything that you're up to?

611
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the book is available anywhere that books are sold,

612
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: So that's Amazon, Barnes and Noble. You might be able

613
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: to even pull up in your local Barns and Noble

614
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: and Fine of Books there. It's also on Christian Books

615
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: and so really really grateful just for the opportunity to

616
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 2: write this book. And if you want to get connected

617
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 2: with me, you can find me on Instagram and on

618
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: threads at Yanna Jane.

619
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 1: That's why n A j E n a y amazing. Well,

620
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: I'll link all her stuff down below.

621
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 3: Again.

622
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 1: Her book is titled Living Beyond a Fence. Cop it.

623
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: Put it in your cart right now, check out. I'm

624
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: sure that there's going to be a million holiday deals

625
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: still happening, So go get that book. And I'm just

626
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: praying for y'all and believing that if God can do

627
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: a good work in Yanna. If God can do a

628
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: good work in me, if God can do a good

629
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: work throughout all of time, he can do the same

630
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: for you. Whether that's reconciling the broken relationship, whether that's

631
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,319
Speaker 1: helping you to navigate forgiveness, whether that's helping you to

632
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: learn how to trust Him and his healing hand at

633
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 1: work in your life. Something beautiful can come from this

634
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: broken place. I believe it. We are all testaments of that.

635
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: I love y'all. Thanks for tuning in. As you guys know,

636
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: I put out episodes every single week, so feel free

637
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: to subscribe or hit the follow button wherever however you're

638
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: listening or watching. I also want to say that I

639
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 1: have a email. It's bought and Beloved at gmail dot com,

640
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: all spelled out bought A and d beloved at gmail

641
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: dot com. Where if you have a question, if you're

642
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: going through something, if you have a question about the

643
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: Bible or the season that you're in and you need

644
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: biblical wisdom, or if there is even a guest that

645
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: you would love to see on here, shoot me an email.

646
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: I would love to just know the season that you're in,

647
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: where I can meet you, how I can pour into

648
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 1: your life and help you understand what scripture says about

649
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: all these things and more so, that is a resource

650
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: that's also available to you just hitting up that email.

651
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: But until next week, I love you guys, be blessed,

652
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: and have a happy holiday season. Bye guys. For more

653
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: life giving, faith based podcast just like this one, check

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Speaker 1: out lifeaudio dot com, a proud partner of the Botanbeloved

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Speaker 1: podcast