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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: The interracial marriage debate is back. What does this tell

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Speaker 2: us about our cultural moment? How concerned should we be,

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Speaker 2: and how do we best respond to the arguments against

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Speaker 2: interracial marriage. My guest today is doctor Neil Shanv, author

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Speaker 2: of Post Woke. Neil, thanks for coming back on to

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Speaker 2: talk about this surprising issue that's kind of re emerged

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Speaker 2: right now. Thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 3: My pleasure. I'm glad to be here, but sorry that

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Speaker 3: I'm doing it under these circumstances, because you thought this

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Speaker 3: debate died fifty years ago. Sixty years ago. My wife

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Speaker 3: was asking me, as interracial marriage, you're kidding me, and

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Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, Unfortunately, we're talking about it again.

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Speaker 2: Well, I got my haircut this morning and I told

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Speaker 2: the person cutting my hair. He goes, I thought we

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Speaker 2: settled that seventy years ago. And this is in part

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Speaker 2: what the Internet does. We're seeing something that's often called

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Speaker 2: the woke right, Christian now nationalism. I know these are

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Speaker 2: only labels, but why else do you think this issue

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Speaker 2: is re emerging now.

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Speaker 3: I think we're seeing a reactionary backlash against wokeness that's undeniable.

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Speaker 3: I think that a lot of young white men especially

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Speaker 3: have been radicalized by you know, basically seeing the media

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Speaker 3: and the culture really cast them as the villain and

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Speaker 3: talking about people that grew up during the years of

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Speaker 3: the Great Wokening, as we say in our book, post woke.

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Speaker 3: The rest of us who are a little older, I'm

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Speaker 3: gen X, we can remember them before times. We can

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Speaker 3: remember a time before the world went crazy, when everyone

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Speaker 3: knew what a man was, what a woman was, Everyone

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Speaker 3: knew that racism was bad. Everyone just knew that not everyone.

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Speaker 3: The world wasn't divided into oppressors and oppressed. That was

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Speaker 3: not the prominent category in most people's minds. So we

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Speaker 3: when we want to undo the Great of Wokening, we

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Speaker 3: want to rewind the tape. We want to go back

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Speaker 3: to normalcy. But if you were born and say, you

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Speaker 3: know two thousand and eight, right, so, you know you

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Speaker 3: have never known a different world. This is the world.

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Speaker 3: You've always been in, a world in which because you're

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Speaker 3: a young white male, you were seen as an oppressor.

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Speaker 3: You were told to sit down and shut up, You

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Speaker 3: were told to listen to other people because you didn't,

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Speaker 3: your opinion didn't matter. You were cast with guilt and

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Speaker 3: the stain of inherited sin for things you never did,

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Speaker 3: and so you can see why people like that, some

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Speaker 3: of them at least, we're going looking for answers in

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Speaker 3: these radical right movements. So we're seeing it, and of

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Speaker 3: course I as a document in my book, in my

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Speaker 3: last book with pat Critical Dilemma, there's always been, unfortunately

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Speaker 3: a strain of racism within evangelicalism. So historically, for the

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Speaker 3: last thirty or forty years, around twenty percent of church

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Speaker 3: going evangelicals have been opposed to interracial marriage, and that

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Speaker 3: number has not changed dramatically in the last twenty years.

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Speaker 3: So unfortunately it's always been a problem, but we're seeing

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Speaker 3: it becoming increasingly public now with the rise of the

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Speaker 3: the radical right, the dissident right. It's called the Christian

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Speaker 3: nationalist movement, and that's why we're facing it again.

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Speaker 2: Last time I interviewed you, I asked you if you

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Speaker 2: thought there was still some systemic racism left over, And

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Speaker 2: I don't want to get too sidetracked on that, even

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Speaker 2: that term can be something we need to unpack in detail.

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Speaker 2: But you gave two examples, if I remember Krek, and

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Speaker 2: I think these are in your book. One is that

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Speaker 2: when certain applications are given to companies with names that

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Speaker 2: appear of minorities or blacks less likely to get a callback,

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Speaker 2: and that's like a residue and an example of racism.

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Speaker 2: The other one was the number of Christians and people

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Speaker 2: who are against interracial marriage. So before we dive in,

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Speaker 2: do you consider being against this morally or biblically a

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Speaker 2: racist viewpoint?

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Speaker 4: So there are.

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Speaker 3: Ways to be sort of hesitant to that interracial marriage.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't attribute to say races per se a sinful

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Speaker 3: and the tea. I think partiality. For example, this is

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Speaker 3: a legitimate concern. You could just say, you, knowing that

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Speaker 3: racism is out there, right, will my face children face

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Speaker 3: hardships by marrying it racially? So let's say let's say

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Speaker 3: I'm I'm white and my son's fiance is black. I

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Speaker 3: might worry that given her ethnicity, that her she and

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Speaker 3: her kids and my son will face recrimination. Now, I

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Speaker 3: think hopefully people will say, yeah, but if she's a

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Speaker 3: wonderful person who loves the Lord, that outweighs. Every marriage

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Speaker 3: face hardship, right, Every marriage has struggles, and I think

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Speaker 3: that you look for someone who is going to help

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Speaker 3: your child serve God. The best, and if it's harder

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Speaker 3: for them because of the sighting which we live, I

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Speaker 3: think we just say, well, so be it will have

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Speaker 3: to work harder without the work harder. So I don't

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say this one thinking that way is sinning.

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Speaker 3: I also have friends whose parents are older and they

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Speaker 3: I just had this cultural stigma about interracial marriage. They

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Speaker 3: and they have to get over that. We hope that they,

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Speaker 3: you know, they think carefully. They learn this through knowing

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Speaker 3: their son law, daughter in law. They come to embrace

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Speaker 3: them and that unwinds this cultural not some time in

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Speaker 3: their head. So I think there's a spectrum, right, I

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Speaker 3: think it's I think they should support interracial marriage. Or

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Speaker 3: the other thing too, is that to have preferences that

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Speaker 3: comes with the debate. If I say this is a

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Speaker 3: silly example. Let's say I'm a die hard Eagles fan

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Speaker 3: and my my future daughter in law is a huge

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Speaker 3: Cowboys fan or our trivals, and I say, oh, man,

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Speaker 3: I really it always hoped to raise my grandkids to

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Speaker 3: love the Eagles like me and you. But I know,

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Speaker 3: obviously that's silly. You'd hope that I could get over that.

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Speaker 3: But I say, what my preference would be for a

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Speaker 3: fellow Eagles fan, but you know it's and so I

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Speaker 3: think we came up to debate. If you say I'd

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Speaker 3: always wish, I'd hope that my my grandkids looked like me,

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Speaker 3: that's a little weird to me. Frankly, I'm Indian. I

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Speaker 3: don't so much a chance of me having a half

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Speaker 3: Indian grandkids. But again, that's not malice, that's not enmity,

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Speaker 3: but it's not Also, I don't think it's necessarily a sin.

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Speaker 3: It's a preference, and if you can hold out with

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Speaker 3: open hands, again not a big deal. But again as

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Speaker 3: a spectrum, there are people that simply don't like people

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Speaker 3: of color, that don't like whites. That's called racism, and

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Speaker 3: that is a sin, and they have to repent and

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Speaker 3: they should see God's will on these issues. So again

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Speaker 3: the spectrum, I wouldn't be too hasty to pass judgment

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Speaker 3: on exactly what their motives are. I'd talk to them first.

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Speaker 3: But regardless, I think the question in the debate, which

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Speaker 3: is important one is theologically, what does God think of

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Speaker 3: interracial marriage? Forget what your preferences are, are cultural stigmas,

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Speaker 3: the state of society? What does scriptures say? What does

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Speaker 3: God teach us about whether or not interracial marriage is

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Speaker 3: morally permissible? Is part of his design for marriage? Is

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Speaker 3: compatible with his design for marriage? That's the question.

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Speaker 2: Great, well, we're going to get to that question. But

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that nuance between somebody saying if I marry

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Speaker 2: somebody with a difference from me and a different race

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Speaker 2: might be a difference. What challenges might that bring versus

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Speaker 2: not being in favor of interracial marriage because you think

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Speaker 2: one race is superior to another. Those can be looking

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Speaker 2: at interracial marriage through a very different lens. So that's

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Speaker 2: a helpful way to look get that. But you're right,

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Speaker 2: the debate here is about what does God think about this?

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Speaker 2: Because as Christians, we should align our views and our

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Speaker 2: practice with what God says. Primarily Now we're going to

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Speaker 2: come to that, But what sparked this debate, Like, what's

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Speaker 2: the backdrop of what sparked it? And then maybe set

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Speaker 2: up this a specific debate that recently took place that

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Speaker 2: we're going to react to. So I think we're seeing

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Speaker 2: the rise of these radical right movements within evangelicism some

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Speaker 2: corners of evangelicalism, primarily through the back door of Christian nationalism.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm be very clear here. I'm not at all

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Speaker 3: saying that all Christian nationalists harbor racism and I sympitism

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Speaker 3: undew these views associated with the radical right. I'm not

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Speaker 3: saying that. I am saying that several very prominent, loud

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Speaker 3: Christian nationalists who were really for better or for worse

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Speaker 3: I think, at the heart of the movement and have

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Speaker 3: been for the last several years, they are beginning to

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Speaker 3: increasingly be vocal about their views on race and an

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Speaker 3: I sympitism and things like that, and other issues that

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Speaker 3: are increasingly at odds with I think what the Bible teaches.

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Speaker 3: I mean, just give you one example just from a

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Speaker 3: few months ago. As rapidly it's rapidly increasing. So a

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Speaker 3: few months ago a guy named Andrew Torba created a

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Speaker 3: website called Christian Nationalist dot com. Andrew Torbay is the

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Speaker 3: CEO of gab but, which is no for sort of

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Speaker 3: far white social media as a site, and he published

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Speaker 3: his three thousand word manifesto on Christian Nationalism, and he

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Speaker 3: wrote the number one best selling book on Christian nationalism

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Speaker 3: on Amazon by far. So this is not some fringe figure.

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Speaker 3: It's very prominent. On his website, he had a list

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Speaker 3: of resources, and he named this, this podcast called stone

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Speaker 3: Choir as the number one Christian nationalist website worldwide. Well,

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Speaker 3: that podcast is run by a pair of I think

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Speaker 3: it's totally fair to call them neo Nazis. They and

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Speaker 3: here's the quotes from one of the podcasts co hosts,

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Speaker 3: the named Corey Moller. Here's these are quotes from his

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Speaker 3: Twitter feed. By any objective scientific standard, blacks are not

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Speaker 3: fully human and off Hitler was a Christian prince. It

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Speaker 3: was evil to permit women to vote. You can either

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Speaker 3: have civilization or blacks, but not both. What must be

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Speaker 3: done as obvious Jews and blacks are both the problem.

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Speaker 3: It should be illegal for men to work to the

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Speaker 3: home tolerance for Jews as postap before God. It Off

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Speaker 3: Hitler's in paradise. So this that guy's podcast, And that's

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Speaker 3: just a sampling. And this is very go to his feet.

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Speaker 3: It's not like once a month. It's a constant stream

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Speaker 3: of utterly vile sentiments. That guy's webs of podcast was

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Speaker 3: recommended to buy. The number one best selling author of

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Speaker 3: the number one book on Christian nationalism as the number

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Speaker 3: one best podcast on Christian nationalism on his website. So

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Speaker 3: that's that's, that's that happened even just months ago, months ago,

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Speaker 3: it can kind of masks off finally, this open embrace

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Speaker 3: of these ideas by certain segments of this movement. When

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Speaker 3: that website was released, it was praised by a pastor

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Speaker 3: named Brian Savey, who's again mary very big in the

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Speaker 3: Christian nationalist circles, and by pastor Joel Webbin, who was

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Speaker 3: in this debate saying that interracial marriage of any idea,

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Speaker 3: that interracial marriage was against God's design. So and that's

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Speaker 3: this is all within two months even so, we're just

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Speaker 3: seeing this rapid rush towards these I would argue, very

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Speaker 3: bad and unbiblical ideas. And again, and Joel Webbin, to

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Speaker 3: make his background clearer, he co authored the Statement on

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Speaker 3: Christian Nationalism and the Gospel a few years ago with

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Speaker 3: other prominent Christian nationalists, including William Wolf, who's in the

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Speaker 3: Southern Baptist Convention. He's on the document. I'm not at

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Speaker 3: all saying that William Wolf shares Webins views. I'm just

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Speaker 3: putting out you can't claim these are fringe people no

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Speaker 3: one's heard about, and we're dragging them out for no reason.

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Speaker 3: These guys really are a major and so Christian nationalists especially,

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Speaker 3: I would hope the extent you're a committed Christian first,

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Speaker 3: you would say this is beyond the pale, reject these

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Speaker 3: views wholesale, full stop. And then and I've been asking

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Speaker 3: Christian nationalists for years and now to sort of gate

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Speaker 3: keep their movement because again, I'm concerned about not politics.

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Speaker 3: I'm concerned about people's souls, and to the extent that

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Speaker 3: these views are getting a foothold among young, angried, s

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Speaker 3: affected Christian men and they I've talked to people who

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Speaker 3: you probably know, Yeah, in our church, among my friend group,

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Speaker 3: I've seen this happening. Yeah, we should be concerned.

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Speaker 2: I've seen enough to concern me as well, just conversations

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Speaker 2: with young Christians that seem to resonate with this message

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Speaker 2: that are coming from people like Nick Fuentis, which I

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Speaker 2: realize is different and that's a loaded name as well,

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Speaker 2: but kind of intersects with some of the same kind

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Speaker 2: of ideas that we see in these circles, and so

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Speaker 2: I think we need to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: So leg to be clear what sorry webon has released

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Speaker 3: a ten part series Innovator used with Nick quents. So

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Speaker 3: these are not again totally separated. Serious. He just announced

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Speaker 3: he's partnered with a few other people that are known

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Speaker 3: for like antiesthemitism and crazy racial statements. So we're seeing

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Speaker 3: a convergence between evangelical Christian nationalism and parts are very

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Speaker 3: tark parts of the radical right online, and they're they're

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Speaker 3: increased converging and that should worry us.

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Speaker 2: It does concern us. And I haven't seen those ten videos,

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Speaker 2: so I don't know how much he critiques him supports him.

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Speaker 2: We don't have to go down that road right now.

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Speaker 2: But that's very that's a fair point to draw attention to,

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Speaker 2: I think. So let's get to the heart of the debate.

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Speaker 2: There was this tweet that Webin sent out which basically

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Speaker 2: said he's against interracial marriage. There's a few other figures

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Speaker 2: who have said this, and then there's recently a debate.

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Speaker 2: There was Webin, there was Ruslan, there was three or

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Speaker 2: four other people as a part of this that we

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Speaker 2: will get into, and there's a lot of conversation about it.

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Speaker 2: So what we're going to do is take a look

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Speaker 2: at some of these clips and respond to it to

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Speaker 2: try to help people who maybe don't have three and

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Speaker 2: a half hours to watch the whole debate, which was interesting,

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Speaker 2: by the way, and just make sense of it. So

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Speaker 2: here's the claim that Webin made. I want to state it,

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Speaker 2: and then I'm going to ask you what are some

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Speaker 2: of the arguments that are often given behind this? And

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Speaker 2: so Webin was carefully said this to start the debate,

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Speaker 2: and he repeated it twice. He said, interracial marriage, while

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Speaker 2: biblically permissible, generally slash ordinarily goes against God's normative design

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Speaker 2: for humanity, nations, and culture. That's exactly how he worded it.

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Speaker 2: So he has this category where it's biblically permissible, it's allowed,

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Speaker 2: but generally slash ordinarily goes against God's normative design, the

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Speaker 2: pattern he set up for humanity, nations, and culture. So

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Speaker 2: it's not morally ideal, it's permissible. It's kind of the

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Speaker 2: position that he's taking. So what are the central arguments

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Speaker 2: that are given to back this up against interracial marriage?

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Speaker 2: Explain some of this to us.

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Speaker 3: So Webin and it was his co host Wesley Todd

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Speaker 3: and then Antonio Griffith were the three people that were

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Speaker 3: against interracial marriage. And it was Ruslan and god Logic

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Speaker 3: as his handle. I don't know what it is. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: they were. They were on taking the anti side, saying, no,

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Speaker 3: interracial marriage is not against God's design. To just to

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Speaker 3: be clear, who's who webin I'll just call them web inside.

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Speaker 3: Their argument, interestingly, was by the end of the debate

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Speaker 3: they said explicitly it was not rooted in scripture. Not

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Speaker 3: like so for the first they had three opening statements,

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Speaker 3: and if you listen to the opening statements, they occasionally

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Speaker 3: brought up a verse or two that didn't really relate

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Speaker 3: to the topic. Like I would say, well, we're all

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Speaker 3: made in God's image. I'm like, well, yeah we are.

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Speaker 3: That's not okay, of course we all agree on that.

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Speaker 3: The only in thirty minutes opening statements, the only verse

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Speaker 3: they sided to defend this proposition that interracial marriage is

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Speaker 3: generally not generally opposed to God's design. That whatever they're

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Speaker 3: exact tracing was the only verse they quoted it was

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Speaker 3: actually remotely relevant to that proposition. Was the verse from

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Speaker 3: first crime than saying do not be unequally yoked, And

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Speaker 3: that obviously that verse, just as it actually written in context,

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Speaker 3: was about particularly being yoked with unbelievers. It's explicit in

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Speaker 3: the passage, and it's predominantly talking about marrying non believers,

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Speaker 3: as Paul says in that letter. But it's certainly unbelievers,

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Speaker 3: no question. It's not about Christians of a different race

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Speaker 3: or ethnicity, it's not at all, and contextually it's not

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Speaker 3: even about partnering in other ways. It's about marrying unbelievers. Right,

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Speaker 3: So oddly that's all they mentioned for biblical support. They

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Speaker 3: talked a lot about sociology and some about science and

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Speaker 3: population dynamics and history, but basically zero biblical support. To

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Speaker 3: their great credit, Russlan and god Lodge, I'll just call

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Speaker 3: them Gel. Ruslan and Gel in their opening statement made

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Speaker 3: a absolute, really a biblical argument. They did not just

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Speaker 3: quote one or two versus. They walk you through the

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Speaker 3: Old Testament the New Testament. They give you explicit, prescriptive

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Speaker 3: verses about this is what marriage is and should be like.

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Speaker 3: They give you descriptions of interracial marriages from the Old Testament,

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Speaker 3: and as in they're shown that they were put in

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Speaker 3: a positive light. So you have people like Ruth Rayhab

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Speaker 3: the Moses's wife by Moses. These are heroes of the

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Speaker 3: faith right that in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews.

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Speaker 3: So they're not like we're picking some random person in

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Speaker 3: some random book about They gave prophetic literature, prophetic statements

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Speaker 3: about marriage and the law. They went to the levitical

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Speaker 3: law and talked about how God treats and embraces foreigners

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Speaker 3: within the nation of Israel, how their allocated inheritance. They

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Speaker 3: have one law for the forner. So we're talking about

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Speaker 3: this s comprehensive, not comprehensive, but but wide breadth versus

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Speaker 3: that different from epistles, from profet id a literature, from

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Speaker 3: the law, from example, from prescription. This is purely biblical.

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Speaker 3: And at the end of their airpening statement, then there's

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Speaker 3: an hour of cross examination, and again they're brilliant in

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Speaker 3: coming back over and over to the point saying, what

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Speaker 3: is your scriptural biblical basis for saying that interracial marriage

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Speaker 3: is not part of God's design? And they asked and

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Speaker 3: asked and asked, and finally, after one minute and fifty

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Speaker 3: eight seconds, Webins side basically conceded, this is an argument

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Speaker 3: based on natural law. So they said, we don't have

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Speaker 3: to make it. The Actually Webins said, we don't have

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Speaker 3: to make a biblical argument because God's given us two books,

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Speaker 3: the Book of Scripture, and the Book of Nature. So

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Speaker 3: natural law is what we're using to make this argument

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Speaker 3: against interracial marriage, and Russlan, I'll just have an incredible comeback.

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Speaker 3: He says, Okay, so you're not appealing to scripture, you're

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Speaker 3: planning now natural law. Will let me quote from the

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Speaker 3: basically the father, the pillar of natural law himself, Thomas Aquinas.

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Speaker 3: He says, quote neither race nor a nation offer any

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Speaker 3: impediment to marriage. And then he goes that good quote

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Speaker 3: Martin Luthere quote stories after sources. In a later section,

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Speaker 3: he listened historical example semples of Christian missionaries he married

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Speaker 3: in racially with no objections at all from the church

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Speaker 3: at the time, no asterisks by their name. So it

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Speaker 3: really was a debate with people citing scripture heavily and

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Speaker 3: people basically saying, we don't need this argument to depend

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Speaker 3: on scripture. We making it apart from scripture.

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Speaker 2: And they kind of conceded that somewhat. They kind of said, well,

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Speaker 2: it's not explicitly in scripture. It's implicitly in scripture.

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Speaker 3: One of the points they didn't even say that. They

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Speaker 3: basically said, so this what what scripture talks about nations?

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Speaker 3: And then natural law tells us what is good for nations.

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Speaker 3: That's basically their argument. So the implicit argument was not

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Speaker 3: even about marriage of any kind. It was about what

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Speaker 3: Scripture talks to such about nations and peoples. And then

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Speaker 3: they depend on to that what we learned from nature

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Speaker 3: about what's good for nations. That makes sense. It's they're

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Speaker 3: not even trying to implicitly argue that it's in there

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Speaker 3: in the Bible somewhere. Now.

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Speaker 2: One of the things they reference is polygamy, and they said,

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Speaker 2: for example, that it's not explicitly condemned in the Old Testament,

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Speaker 2: but was permissible, and then shift to make that argument

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Speaker 2: apply in some ways towards interracial marriage, that it's permissible.

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Speaker 2: And so part of the question was does the Old

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Speaker 2: Testament explicitly condemn polygamy? And I would say a couple

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Speaker 2: of things. The Bible lays out what marriage is. It

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Speaker 2: is a sex institute. It's meant to be male and female,

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Speaker 2: and it's meant to be permanent. And then we add

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Speaker 2: the passage you talk about from Corinthians that it's which

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Speaker 2: of course rooted in Deuteronomy, that it's meant to be

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Speaker 2: ultimately now between believers. So a sexed, permanent institution between

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Speaker 2: believers to propagate, fill the earth, and of course be

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Speaker 2: a mirror to God's love for the church. That's what

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Speaker 2: marriage is. So when it comes to polygamy, there's not

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Speaker 2: an explicit condemnation of it, but it's so clearly laid

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Speaker 2: out what marriage is supposed to be, and Jesus affirms

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Speaker 2: this in Matthew nineteen. I would argue that the Old

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Speaker 2: Testament narratively teaches why polygamy is against God's design. Look

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Speaker 2: at the life of Jacob, look at the life of David,

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Speaker 2: look at the life of Solomon. So it's not explicit,

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Speaker 2: but scripturally you get a case for this. Well, I

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Speaker 2: don't think that example that they're making from polygamy works

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Speaker 2: as it's applied to interracial marriage.

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Speaker 3: Your thoughts, So I would say maybe even in stronger case.

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Speaker 3: So one thing they did was they did say, you know,

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Speaker 3: polygamy is a category where it's not explicitly condemned in scripture,

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Speaker 3: and therefore we can appeal to natural law. And they

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Speaker 3: actually even jolly even said if they were like a

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Speaker 3: Muslim man who had four wives and join Jewel's church

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Speaker 3: and became a Christian, it's a matter of sort of

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Speaker 3: wisdom and prudence about do you make him divorce three

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Speaker 3: of the wives? What do you do in that situation?

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Speaker 3: It's an exception, right, It's it's not I can't put

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Speaker 3: him in to command, saying you might. You can't be

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Speaker 3: an elder. That is an explicit command. Elder must be

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Speaker 3: a one woman man. But it's maybe there's not an

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Speaker 3: explicit condimation, so maybe I have to just figure out

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Speaker 3: what my elders what to do with him. And that

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Speaker 3: was their argument for saying the same thing happens with

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Speaker 3: interracial marriage, is that we don't have think commands and

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Speaker 3: so we kind of have to it's it's it's not

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Speaker 3: according to his design. We agree on that from natural law,

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Speaker 3: so we kind of talk about it, like, first of all,

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Speaker 3: it's a terrible comparison because you're really saying that polygamy

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Speaker 3: and and uh, international marriage are both kind of they're

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Speaker 3: both equally bad things, you know, from natural law, and

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Speaker 3: you kind of have to talk to your elders about

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Speaker 3: whether it's okay to have two wives versus having a

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Speaker 3: you know, a Hispanic wife that I don't know you

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Speaker 3: want to go there, but I would actually argue and

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Speaker 3: then that's what Russelyn did argue, and and uh g

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Speaker 3: LL argued, They said number one, the bird proof is

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Speaker 3: on you. If you say God's design is against this, Okay,

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Speaker 3: that's a positive claim. You have to they offer proof

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Speaker 3: of that, right and set number one. So it's not

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Speaker 3: analogous someone who says I don't know what God's design

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Speaker 3: is for marriage, or here's what it is, and it's not.

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Speaker 3: There's no mention at all of interracial stuff at all.

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Speaker 3: It's just not there. So you have to make that

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Speaker 3: positive case. That's so that's what they pointed out. So

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Speaker 3: it's it's sort of apples and origin. And then they

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Speaker 3: and then that's it's number one. So and they're saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, we're not in this debate to say we're not.

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Speaker 3: We made no we made no claim that God's eye

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Speaker 3: for marriage is interracial. The claim is just that it's not.

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Speaker 3: It's not anti God's design. So if I said God's

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Speaker 3: design is the only marry Eagles fans, right, that's your claim.

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Speaker 3: And my claim is that's not even that's not even

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Speaker 3: part of God's design. It's not there in the design

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Speaker 3: at all. It's not here or there. It's irrelevant. To

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Speaker 3: the God design, and I'll give you support for that,

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Speaker 3: but the burden fruits on you to say no, here's why,

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Speaker 3: here's the case I'm making. Where I can just say

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Speaker 3: there's no there's no case to be made, there's no

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Speaker 3: state data at all. So that's one argument that Russelyn

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Speaker 3: made is that these are these are different burdens of

425
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 3: proof given our positions. What we're saying there, because again

426
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 3: Ruslan's not saying interracial marriage is God's design, it's what

427
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 3: God wants. He say, no, God doesn't care about the

428
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 3: race of the person you're married. But the second thing

429
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 3: they point out is no, Actually I agree with him.

430
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,640
Speaker 3: I'd argue that interracial sorry that polygamy is explicitly condemned

431
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 3: in the New Testament, and at least two places no

432
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 3: number one mentioned Matthew nineteen. In Matthew nineteen, Jesus says

433
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 3: that a man who who divorces his wife, if he

434
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: divorces his wife and marries another, commits what adeltere against her.

435
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 3: And if you look at Jesus speak on marriage and

436
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: teaching on marriage throughout the Testament, his reasoning is that

437
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 3: if you divorce someone unjustly on Biblically, the reason that

438
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 3: if you remarry you can adulty why is that because

439
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: you're still married in God's eyes. So, and it goes

440
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 3: through all these situations that Jesus gives where you know,

441
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 3: if you divorce a woman, you cause her, if she

442
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 3: marries to commit a delts, you cause her commideultree because

443
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 3: but she's still married. It's why it's adulterree and not fornication.

444
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 3: And if you if you divorse a woman and then

445
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 3: marry another woman, the marriage is adulterous at least at

446
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 3: first because you have unjustly put away your wife who's

447
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: still it in God's eyes, married to you. So that's

448
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,399
Speaker 3: Jesus reasoning. And if that's the case, that's his reasoning.

449
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 3: It's a very common if you look at their Westmner

450
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 3: Confession and other documents, that's the way they read it

451
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: as saying that marriage is a God or Dane binding

452
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,239
Speaker 3: covenant that is not dissolved, that your whim and or

453
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 3: for if you have sex outside of that marriage, which

454
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,439
Speaker 3: is not dissolved, that's called adultree. That a marriage is

455
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: adeltree if you're married. So that's so, and then if

456
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: that's Jesus reasoning. He doesn't mean if you divorce your

457
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 3: wife and remarry another woman, that's adultree because the marriage

458
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 3: marriage is still still there. He's not saying, well, just

459
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 3: keep your wife and at a new wife. The whole

460
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 3: point was the marriage is one man and one woman,

461
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 3: and that's why any second marriage is a delterous. That's

462
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 3: his reasoning, and that's that's again you can look at

463
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: old confessions. That's how they read that passage. But secondly

464
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: they brought up Brusselan and God Logic brought up the statements.

465
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 3: I think it's in Titus actually, where it's a list

466
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: of qualifications for elders, things like not quarrelsome not a

467
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: lever of money, able to manage his household well, able

468
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 3: to teach, and a one woman man. Right, those are

469
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: all those are core requirements for eldership. Joel agrees yes

470
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 3: to requirements. You cannot be polygamists and be an elder

471
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 3: in church. However, they pointed out, actually I think God

472
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: Logic did this. He pointed out that all of those

473
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 3: qualifications for the character of elders are actually also just

474
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: good character for all Christian men. We should all aspire

475
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 3: to be, not quarrelsome we should all aspire to manage

476
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: our households well. We should all aspire to be able

477
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 3: to teach. I mean not skill wise, but we should

478
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 3: want to be able to teach. In fact, in Hebrews eleven,

479
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 3: the author of Hebrews chides his hearers, saying, by now

480
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 3: you should be teachers. You're not ready to teach. That's bad.

481
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 3: He's assuming that mature Christs can minimum teach their kids,

482
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 3: can share the Gospel with non Christians. So his point was,

483
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,719
Speaker 3: every single one of those statements, those qualifications for an

484
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 3: elder is something that to some degree all Christians should

485
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 3: aspire to. There's marks of good Christian character. But if

486
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: that's the case, being a one woman man is not

487
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 3: a special thing for elders, something all Christian men should

488
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 3: aspire to. Ironically, so Webbin had to dig it in

489
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 3: say no, not all Christians should aspire to be one

490
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 3: woman then or able to teach, because he had to

491
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 3: do that because otherwise he has to admit. Yes, in fact,

492
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: Desmond does oppose polygamy, and that is whole argument cruble.

493
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 3: But you see him back into a corner effectively because

494
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: he's making these increasingly grasping its straw arguments to defect

495
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 3: because he wants really badly to believe that this is

496
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 3: a wiggler area where he can say it's not part

497
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 3: of God's design a racial marriage is not, and he's

498
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: doing some really mental gymnastics to get there.

499
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 2: It was a great move by Avery to move from

500
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: the Old Testament, which I think narratively shows that God's

501
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: design is not polygamy. To Matthew nineteen and the passage

502
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 2: you're exactly to explicitly condemns it. I think that's well stated.

503
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: Let's get to some of the clips that are here.

504
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: At the root of this debate is how we defy

505
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: find the word race. I thought it was fascinating that

506
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: both sides kind of agreed that it came into around

507
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: the sixteenth century or so into our vernaculars, so even

508
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: biblical times didn't have our modern construct of race to

509
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: cooperate from. That's important. Let's take a look at this

510
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: clip and then we'll get your reaction.

511
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: What is interracial marriage race?

512
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 5: And its simplest definition simply means common descent People of

513
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 5: a given race share a common ancestor at a relatively

514
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 5: recent point, as distinguished from other lineages that do not

515
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 5: share that same ancestry. We all share Adam as the

516
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 5: ultimate head of humanity, the first human, and Eve, the

517
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 5: mother of all living.

518
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 4: Thus there is a.

519
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 5: Sense in which one can say Adam is the head

520
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 5: of the human race. But just because there.

521
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 4: Is one.

522
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 5: Certain ultimate common lineage does not mean that there are

523
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 5: not additions a meaningful more recent shared ancestries thousands of

524
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 5: years more recently from Adam. Every individual in the world,

525
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 5: every human being, is a descendant of one of Noah's sons,

526
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 5: shem Ham or Jafif, or they are a mix of

527
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 5: two or three of them. Europeans, for example, they are

528
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 5: the offsprings of Jff who migrated north to the coastland.

529
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 5: Asians and Middle Eastern peoples descended from shem Africans descended

530
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 5: from Haam, who went south. It is important to understand

531
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 5: that within each broad lineage, those big three buckets, there

532
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 5: can be further specificity. Within Europeans, for example, there are

533
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 5: the Germanics, the French, the Scottish, the Spanish, the Southeastern

534
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 5: and the Slavic influenced Europeans. These are people with different languages, cultures, diets, habits,

535
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 5: and occupying different geography that have been shaped to be

536
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 5: biologically unique. They are not just distinct in practice or culture,

537
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 5: they are distinct inherently. Traits such as height, bone structure,

538
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 5: intelligent skin tone, body fat and muscle composition, immune systems,

539
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 5: and more have all been shaped by the geography, the

540
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 5: culture of the diet, climate, and religion. And so race

541
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 5: is our shorthand way of speaking to groups of people

542
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 5: that are biologically related. They've been shaped by the same

543
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 5: factors over time.

544
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 3: Okay, so that was well Todd talking about that.

545
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: Let me let me all set. I'll set this up

546
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: for us. When that's done. Oh did you pause? Possible?

547
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: Are you frozen?

548
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 4: Yep?

549
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, you frew frozen. You're freezing a little bit.

550
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: Sorry, Okay, I got I got you back. Okay, what's

551
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 2: happened in that clip? And what do you make of it?

552
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 3: So Wesley Todd is defining race and it's really illuminating us.

553
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: So the Antonio, one of his teammates, had given a

554
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 3: definition of race is actually more sensible and insane. Basically,

555
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 3: the idea that there are certain buckets you can see

556
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 3: in the human genome. You know, we're ninety nine point

557
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: nine percent identical genetically right, but there's point one percent

558
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: of our genes are very and you can look at

559
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 3: the human genome in different continents and say, okay, in Africa,

560
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: most people have sort of these genes more than you

561
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 3: know in North America or in Europe. So there is

562
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: that you can sort of see what would uh, Antonio says,

563
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: is there's sort of structured data you can kind of

564
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 3: classify genomes in with zero point one percent. It's a

565
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 3: very small in vredation. But some things appear more in

566
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 3: say Africa, or more in North America, things like that.

567
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: So that's true. And he says that the buckets Antonio

568
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 3: says this are basically continental, so they're like, you know,

569
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: six buckets you can put vaguely put people into. But

570
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: he stops there. Uh, and one thing, and but he

571
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 3: also says, this is not Weslie Todd, but this other guy,

572
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: and it says that the borders of these buckets are

573
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 3: actually kind of arbitrary. And I'm glad he said. It's

574
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 3: entirely true. And a lot of it's realists don't acknowledge this.

575
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: It's like said, now I make is this imagine colors?

576
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 3: We can all agree that blue and red are different

577
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 3: colors they are objectively different, right, And if you're a guy,

578
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: you can see, like, you know, there are ten buckets

579
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 3: of colors. There's blue, red, green, yellow, black, brown, you know,

580
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: few others, right. But if you're you know, like my wife,

581
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 3: who's you know, likes to decorate things, you can see

582
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: lots of shades of blue. There's cerulian, and there's cyan

583
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 3: and turquoise and azure. And so the question is, well,

584
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: how many buckets are there? And the answer is that

585
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: placing of buckets and also what shade of blue counts

586
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 3: as turquoise versus cerulian versus cyan. That's that is what's

587
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: called the social construction. And actually Antonio Griffith, who's on

588
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 3: that debate side, gerad that the buckets we create are

589
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: social constructs. He admitted that the number of the buckets

590
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: and where the lines fall. He compared it to saying

591
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 3: where does the Amazon rainforest begin? There's no line on

592
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 3: the ground, there's no natural border. We can just say, well,

593
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: the forest is there. We see that, we don't know

594
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 3: where it begins exactly. It's a great and analogy to race.

595
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 3: There's maybe six big buckets. You can kind of put

596
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: them in them either. But maybe there are a fewer,

597
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 3: maybe they're more. But Wesley Todd makes a big error

598
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 3: here in thinking that he can make the buckets even

599
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 3: smaller down to in his quote there Spanish and French

600
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: in German and uh so now he's claiming that French

601
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: people are their own race and Spaniards and not culturally.

602
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: That was the crucial point. It's biological, he claimed, and

603
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: he quote he says, quote, bone structure, intelligence, immune systems

604
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 3: are biologically different between French and Spaniards and Germans. That

605
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 3: is complete nonsense. My wife's the doctor, she she I said,

606
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 3: this guy said that, he's like, what is he talking about?

607
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 3: That's insane. You can't dig up a French person skeleton

608
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 3: and be like back, guy was French. This is and

609
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 3: and and I saw Griffith during the debate kind of

610
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 3: like looking up obviously what is he thinking right now

611
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: because he seemed to be informed on these issues. But

612
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: Todd's claims are outrageously false. This is madness. So right

613
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 3: off the bat, I have to say, if you're taking

614
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: these guys as race realists, so they know what they're

615
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,919
Speaker 3: talking about. They're standing up against the liberal post circumsensus. No,

616
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 3: they are just flatly scientifically wrong. They don't know what

617
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 3: they're talking about. So so I think what I would

618
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: do is I would I define race. It's a social construct.

619
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 3: Why not because there aren't genes, Not because you can't

620
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 3: see broad trends like people that have African descent have

621
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 3: darker skin than people of European descent. Sure we all

622
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 3: agree on that. That's and that is part of our genetics. Right.

623
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,839
Speaker 3: You can talk about bone density, they're they're they're, they're,

624
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 3: they're these features that and they're all spectra. You know,

625
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 3: people tend to be darker skin, people tend to be

626
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 3: lighter skin, people tend to be taller. Sure on this

627
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 3: continental scale and ancestraally, but where we draw the lines,

628
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 3: how we categorize these races is, as Griffith his teammates said,

629
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 3: a social construct. The last thing I'll say is that

630
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 3: if you look at the actual data, and I have

631
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 3: read the papers, it's one thing to say, you know

632
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 3: in Central Africa, you know, Australian Aboriginal. These are very

633
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 3: isolated groups. The markers are clearer, right, But you have

634
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 3: entire regions like the Middle East, Southern Europe, South Asia,

635
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: Central Asia, currently all of South America. There's been so

636
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 3: much intermixing historically in those regions that they don't fall

637
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 3: into any buckets at all, or they're like a mixture

638
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: of three different buckets. So it's really important people to

639
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,439
Speaker 3: hear that scientifically, it's not just liberals and progressives who

640
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: think that racist social construct. You have one of the

641
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 3: debaters here who's on the race real side admitting that,

642
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 3: and it's supported by the actual data. So that very

643
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 3: clear the beginning.

644
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: That's really helpful clarification because the heart of this debate

645
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: is what is race? Yes, right, talk about interracial marriage.

646
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: We had to define clearly what it is, and I

647
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: think you've drawn out a good helpful definition for us

648
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 2: and understanding on this. Let's shift to the second clip

649
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: and get your reaction to it.

650
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 6: Okay, I'm more interested in your own evolution, Joel, because

651
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 6: I don't know if I'm disagreeing with you as much

652
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 6: as you seem to be disagreeing with you. And so

653
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 6: I got a couple of clips i'd love to play

654
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 6: of you from twenty twenty two where it share does

655
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 6: sound like you are co signing everything I'm co signing is.

656
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 7: People home all right, you know what I mean, it's yeah, racism.

657
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 7: My point is, race is a big deal. Racism is

658
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 7: the necessary wall of defense to preserve the big deal

659
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 7: of race.

660
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 4: If you can't continue.

661
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 7: To emphasize race multiple generations from now without dividing walls

662
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 7: of hostility to protect the purity of the race.

663
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: And I feel like even with Israel, ethnic.

664
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 4: Israel, so we see, we see if race is a

665
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 4: big deal.

666
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 6: If race is a big deal, I don't see racism.

667
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 4: Not being the logical conclusion. Here's more on interracial marriage. Oh,

668
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 4: for a fact, if I could.

669
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 7: Sit them down, strap them to a chair, give them

670
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 7: some truth here and hear what they really thought.

671
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 4: I don't think that there they would.

672
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 7: Be a fan of interracial marriage because it's all about

673
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 7: you know, it's all about your identity coming from your

674
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 7: ethnicity and what you don't want to You don't want

675
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 7: to water that down, you don't want to lose that,

676
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 7: you don't want to mix that, you know.

677
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 6: And so so Joel, this is you railing.

678
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 4: Against hebri Israelites. And I got one more clip, that's

679
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:02,240
Speaker 4: my favorite one particulate or not. The natural thought process

680
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 4: is that.

681
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 7: That skin, that blood needs to be preserved, and so

682
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 7: you have to turn inward rather than outward and embracing

683
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 7: people from every tried tongue and nation. And you know,

684
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 7: I've got three girls, and one of them, you know,

685
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 7: bring some hispanic guy home one day when she's.

686
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 4: Older, and the guy loves the Lord.

687
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 7: Then I want to say, praise God, marry my daughter,

688
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 7: you know, or a black guy, Praise God, marry my daughter.

689
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 4: But I feel like, if race is such a you

690
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 4: can't say that.

691
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 6: Ye I, praise is such a big deal, you can't

692
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 6: say that, So don't I don't know. I think I

693
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 6: think at best, Joe, you've clearly flip flopped on his

694
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 6: position really bad. At worse, this is a part of

695
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 6: a bigger play for partnerships with other Christian nationalists. But

696
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 6: if race is a big deal, racism is a necessary

697
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 6: wall of defense to preserve the big deal. And now

698
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 6: you guys have said racism everything, but it's not nothing.

699
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 6: So I'm just more curious on how you, just a

700
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 6: couple of years ago went from that to where you

701
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 6: are today. And and really my frustration is in you

702
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 6: saying I'm against interracial marriage. You can say I have preferences,

703
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 6: you can I wouldn't even be bad if you said, hey,

704
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 6: I want my grandkids to look like me, I want

705
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 6: my kids to marry.

706
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 4: Vote.

707
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 6: But when you go out and say I am against

708
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 6: something as a pastor, I think I have some issues

709
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 6: with that because I just don't see it in scripture.

710
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 2: All right, I'll set I'll set this one up. This

711
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: is a remarkable clip by you. You just read before

712
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 2: you even finished.

713
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 3: It's an ad. Yeah, it's just as an.

714
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 4: Historical very funny.

715
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 2: There's ads when we're just watching.

716
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 3: I know, I know. Let me go find the clip again.

717
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 3: Was the clip in an email?

718
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 4: As an email?

719
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's in Uh no, he texted it to

720
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: both of us, I think, okay, both of us.

721
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 3: Sorry, that's going to find why I pulled the clip up?

722
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 3: There it is, Yeah, I got it right, I'm right back.

723
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 4: This is important for the debate. I just don't see

724
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:10,799
Speaker 4: it inscription the way.

725
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, I'm there, I'm there, Okay, sorry.

726
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: Remarkable clip from Russlan. Clarify for us what's going on

727
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: in your take on it?

728
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 3: So Ruslan dug up clips from twenty to twenty two

729
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 3: or twenty twenty three. It's not even clear what year

730
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 3: it was where Joe was basically ragging on these race

731
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 3: realists who are obsessed with race. He's actually criticizing the

732
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: left that's race obsessed, and he's like, you leftist progressives

733
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 3: are so into CRT and you're obsessed with race. It's

734
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 3: not a big deal, and it's going to lead to racism.

735
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 3: If you're obsessed with race and keeping your race pure,

736
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 3: this blood purity, you got to be racist towards whites.

737
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 3: But that's where he was and through three years ago,

738
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 3: two years ago, and he even makes a comment like,

739
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: if you're a Hispanic person who loves the Lord, a

740
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 3: black person who loves the Lord, come marry. My daughter's enthusiastic.

741
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 3: Absolutely this nonsense to think otherwise. And now you know,

742
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 3: two years, three years later, he's totally changed his tune.

743
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 3: And Russlin rightly points out, like what is going on here?

744
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 3: You either had a dramatic conversion experience to race realism,

745
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 3: which he by the way, he calls his position of

746
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 3: race realism, or just trying to get clicks from the

747
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 3: white nationalists like which is which you know, He's like,

748
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 3: that's possible. I think it's it's fair given webins association

749
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 3: with Fuentes and his appealing to he's very selically appealing

750
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 3: to this dissident, right, well, which is it? And and

751
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 3: actually a Webin admitted in the cross examination he's like, yes,

752
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 3: this is a recent development. That was his words. He's

753
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 3: changed his mind about the importance of race. And in

754
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 3: the clip, if you notice, he's also talking about the

755
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 3: purity of the nation, the purity of skin and blood.

756
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 3: He's mocking it as a silly thing to care so

757
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: much about. And suddenly in the debate he will literally

758
00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 3: repeatedly invoke the phrase white genocide. They're they're gonna at

759
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 3: not killing whites, simply turning white people brownish through intermarriage.

760
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 3: That's what he's worried about, desperately worried about white genocide.

761
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 3: They're at to genocide white people. And of course Ristlin said,

762
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 3: this is ridiculous emotional language, just you know, let's just

763
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: be adults here. But it is a dramatic change of tune.

764
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: And that's fair. And he did say he shifted, and

765
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: we all shift on views, so that can happen. We

766
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 2: need to critique the views that he has now and

767
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: take those seriously. Although I'd like an explanation for the

768
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 2: shift and what persuaded him. But in part this leads

769
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: us into the next clip, which is, from what I

770
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 2: can tell, one of the most commonly talked about clips

771
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 2: because he specifically brings in the example of Vote Bacam

772
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 2: and his daughter. If in principle and theory was going

773
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: to marry Vodi Bakam's son, this was such an interesting exchange.

774
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: Let's take a look.

775
00:43:54,200 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: Sure, and this is important for the the distinction between

776
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,280
Speaker 1: two different categories ethnicity and ranks, and I believe they overlap,

777
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 1: but we're going to use them as two different terms.

778
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: Ethnicity I would say, is it contains the racial components,

779
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:16,479
Speaker 1: but it's much broader because ethnicity is not just biological cool,

780
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: it's not just ancestry and lineage. But it also encompasses language, liturgy.

781
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: So I do loves language, liturgy, being worshiped, religion, those

782
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: kinds of things, you know, customs, culture, traditions, all these

783
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: things come in will Yeah, all these things come into

784
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,719
Speaker 1: play with ethnicity. And in the case of Vote Bakam's son,

785
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: it would be And this is just the reality.

786
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 4: I'm not excited about it. It makes me sad, but it

787
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 4: is the reality.

788
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: Vote Bacam son in these United States of America, the

789
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 1: year of our lower twenty twenty six would be one

790
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: of the rare black men, young black men who actually

791
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: shares for the most part, virtually to a t, the

792
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: same ethnicity as my white daughters, right, meaning same religion,

793
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: same worldview, same tradition, both celebrate Thanksgiving, both, you know,

794
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: like Christmas, same all that traditions, customs, heritage being like,

795
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: he's not black Nigerian who came here fifteen minutes ago,

796
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: but like has been in a heritage Black American that

797
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: has been here tracing his ancestry back for a couple

798
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: of centuries. So in that regard and the reform Baptist

799
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 1: I'm reform Baptists, the doctrinal things would be aligned, all

800
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: those kind of things, So that would be one of

801
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 1: the rare individuals. The reality is, and I don't think

802
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: you guys are going to push back on this. The

803
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: reality is, I would say that about ninety to ninety

804
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 1: five percent of the Black church in America is heretical

805
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 1: as terrible doctrinal views.

806
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 6: So what you're conceding that you would let your daughter

807
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 6: marry voterebu comes on ten years in a future, is

808
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 6: that what you're saying.

809
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 4: What I'm saying is that that would be premissible. I

810
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 4: would not encourage it.

811
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 1: You would not encourage to discourage it.

812
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 4: It depended.

813
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 3: Pens.

814
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 2: That is a provocative of plenty of things we could

815
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 2: talk about, but you actually wanted to respond to this clip.

816
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 2: So give us, give us your thoughts on why this

817
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: is important.

818
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 3: So I think there's so many things in Rustlin's did

819
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 3: a great job responding to this, but you're seeing it

820
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 3: not just that. For for Webin raises a factor. It

821
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 3: is the predominant factor. I mean, here's the thing. So

822
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 3: when you marry someone, there are a lot of things

823
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 3: or factors that you have to consider it. In counseling,

824
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 3: you talk about it like family of origin, sure, culture

825
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 3: you know for some times, or even language differences. You

826
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 3: know you can probably speak the same language, but you know,

827
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 3: I so who knows? There are kinds of things like that,

828
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:50,399
Speaker 3: vocational goals, lifestyle goals, who knows what? There are things

829
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 3: that you consider in finding a future spouse. And of

830
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 3: course Joel wants to be involved in that as a

831
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 3: as a parent, I do too. That's fine, okay, but

832
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 3: there are all these facts. But look at but imagine

833
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 3: someone who sat down and said, I have the perfect

834
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 3: man for my daughter. He is shares a culture, shares values,

835
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 3: shares theology down to a te is. The is the

836
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 3: son of a wonderful pastor that I admire tremendously. Everything

837
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 3: about him is perfect. But here's here's the thing. I

838
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 3: you know, I am an Eagles fan and this guy

839
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 3: is a Cowboys fan, and I would just I can't

840
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 3: encourage that. Are you gonna discourage it? Well, I just

841
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 3: sit them down and say it. They go great, Wait,

842
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 3: what are you talking about? You've described literally the perfect

843
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 3: match for your daughter, Uh, the dream combatibility, and you're

844
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 3: fixing it on the football team and what So the

845
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 3: point is here, how important has web been a made

846
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 3: race in his thinking about marriage and the answers? It's

847
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,879
Speaker 3: almost overriding, right, It's it's literally the point where any

848
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 3: imagine any other issue you work through in marriage. Resident

849
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 3: pointed this out. Class differences. You grew up really dirt

850
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 3: porta trailer park. He grew you know, she grew up

851
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: in a really rich Maybe his family is not Christian,

852
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 3: their you know, their elks cons and their drunk alcoholics,

853
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 3: and she comes from up sitting christ so there are

854
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 3: all of us when we come to a marriage, have

855
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 3: issues to work through, and so that but the idea

856
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 3: that you have to have special counseling because his skin

857
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 3: is a certain color, and remember they define race. And

858
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 3: he says in the clip, it's not about culture theology, really,

859
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,279
Speaker 3: it's all of those things are being shared, history, traditions, holidays.

860
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: He's assuming that those are all identical. It is purely

861
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 3: biological to him. He says that in this clip, it's

862
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 3: just about his skin color and that is a deal

863
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 3: a potential deal breaker for rep And he says it's permissible,

864
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 3: but he has to really can think about it. And

865
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 3: I'm thinking this is again getsially given the quotes he

866
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 3: gave it two years ago, he's condemning himself, right, So yeah,

867
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: I and keep in mind here Rustlin and what was

868
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 3: god Logic's actual first name, Avery Ruslim and Avery have

869
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:23,280
Speaker 3: made this solid case biblically that this consideration of race

870
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 3: is not remotely a factor in God's design at all

871
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 3: in the Bible, not in church history. And Weabon is

872
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: making this like a deal breaking consideration for marrying off

873
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 3: his daughter to body Bacham's daughter. So that is yet

874
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 3: that is just wild to me.

875
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 2: I agree with you on that this is really important

876
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: because one of the things that Avery pointed out is

877
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 2: there are examples of interracial marriage. Now again, in biblical times,

878
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: they weren't looking at it through that lens. But we

879
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 2: know if we think of race in terms of certain

880
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 2: biological distinctives, the Church was made of people with different

881
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 2: biological distinctive. So in First Corinthian chapter seven says a

882
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,439
Speaker 2: woman can marry who she wants if it is in

883
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 2: the Lord, and this is to a mixed racial church.

884
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 2: So he emphasizes that intermarriage is encouraged in the sense

885
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 2: of when there is spiritual commonality, and it's discouraged when

886
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: there's not spiritual commonality. That's the dividing line. And I

887
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: think you're right that the over emphasis on race when

888
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 2: everything else lines up in terms of value and faith,

889
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 2: still making race and a iiding line and say, well,

890
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,800
Speaker 2: if there were twenty other white guys, who would I

891
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: would prefer that. That's where it becomes unbiblical, and that's

892
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 2: where I think it becomes problematic in my mind, they

893
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 2: lose a lot of the debate. All right, let's take

894
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: a look at another clip here, tied to what you

895
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 2: said earlier related to natural law. Again right at the

896
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 2: heart of this debate, I can't say.

897
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: That, but we's you can, Yes, you can, because God

898
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: has written two books, not nearly one. He has special revelation,

899
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 1: that which is inscripturated, but we also have natural revelation.

900
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 4: God has given us reason. He has not made us

901
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 4: witless beast. He has made us intelligent.

902
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: We're able to exercise rationale, and we know that there

903
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: are It's not mere preference, it's not arbitrary, it's not capricious.

904
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 1: We know that there is actually a natural, logical reason

905
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: why we would not encourage our eighteen year old daughter

906
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: to marry a sixty year old man, even if he's Christian,

907
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 1: So it would actually discourage we would discourage it based

908
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: on reason, based on natural laws.

909
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 4: We shouldn't be arbitrary Christians. Yes, So the do de

910
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 4: coined all of this, Thomas Aquinas. This is what he said.

911
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,319
Speaker 6: Difference of race or nation does not impede marriage, for

912
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 6: such difference does not belong to the law of nature.

913
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 6: So the guy that you're quoting natural law naturalists, you know,

914
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 6: maybe there's some distinction in theomony in your version of

915
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 6: natural law. But the guy that coined it, Tomas Quinn,

916
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 6: has made no reservations on this. And I can go

917
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 6: quote after quote we have Martin Luther. Marriage is a

918
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 6: worldly thing. Christians are free to marry wherever there is

919
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 6: faith and love, and I can give you a ton

920
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 6: of quotes from church.

921
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 3: That was a mic drop moment. I think for first Land,

922
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 3: Oh that was.

923
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 2: That was fascinating. Explain exactly what's going on, why this

924
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: was so significant.

925
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 3: So at that point, and I think that's maybe the

926
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 3: very first point when Webin clearly just admits I have

927
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 3: no scriptural argument. It's I'm not appealing to some verse,

928
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 3: some interpretation. He's just like, it's just quote unquote natural.

929
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 3: The Second Book of Revelation. He's saying that we can

930
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 3: you know, uh, that's how we can know the interracial

931
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 3: marriage is not God's design. So at this point they've

932
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:02,800
Speaker 3: almost conceded that there are no biblical arguments, either explicit

933
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 3: or implicit. You're kind of reasoning from what you see.

934
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 3: I mean, here's a good thought experiment. Right, they are

935
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 3: literally arguing for the existance of race. What from the

936
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,880
Speaker 3: Bible is They're like, because the Bible isn't talk about genetics.

937
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 3: They're appealing to genetics, and they're like, well we can

938
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 3: and they're saying, well, we can see that like some

939
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 3: people's skin is darker in some people. But that's it's

940
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 3: it's just appeal to the facts of that are. But

941
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 3: we could equally say, if you live in a different

942
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,840
Speaker 3: history universe, what if everyone looks identical, basically there's no

943
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,359
Speaker 3: race at all. If you by a good scripture, would

944
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 3: you then conclude that marriage was about different skin color. Like,

945
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 3: So they're purely appealing to what they would argue is

946
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:47,120
Speaker 3: natural law, but which rus Land shows is not acknowledged

947
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 3: the natural law by the one of the pillars of

948
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,280
Speaker 3: natural law and many other theologies like Martin Luther throughout history.

949
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 3: So I think that's just a really important observation is

950
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 3: that they're basically not even jerrymandering. They're making out the

951
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 3: whole cloth this argument about race being a governing, determining

952
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 3: part of God's design for marriage.

953
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 2: So, you know, I believe there's value in natural law.

954
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 2: Of course, you can make a case for the value

955
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 2: of the unborn, and you can make a case through

956
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 2: natural law that sex is meant to be experienced in marriage.

957
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 2: There's a lot of different cases that we can make,

958
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 2: But that's different from saying therefore, the case that they're

959
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: making is in line with natural law, and you and

960
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: I arguing they haven't not only not made their biblical case,

961
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:42,160
Speaker 2: but their case from natural law also doesn't follow. That's

962
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:42,600
Speaker 2: the problem.

963
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 6: Yeah.

964
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 2: Now, one tweet that Webins sent out afterwards, and so

965
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 2: apparently he thinks this is a stronger point in his

966
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 2: favor tied to this. I'd love to get your take

967
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,840
Speaker 2: on this one, Neil. He said, Scripture provides no explicit

968
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 2: condemnation of a sixty year old man marrying an eighteen

969
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 2: year old woman, but is everyone averse to it? Why?

970
00:55:07,760 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 2: Because both nature and reason tell us that this arrangement

971
00:55:11,239 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 2: generally goes against God's normative design. So what he's trying

972
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 2: to do here, before you respond, is take another example

973
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 2: that we would take issue with that's not explicitly condemned

974
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 2: in scripture, in this case a six year old marrying

975
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 2: an eighteen year old that presumably most people would say

976
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: not a good idea and say, okay, So if you

977
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: have an example over here where this we push back

978
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:38,880
Speaker 2: on this through natural law, then the same thing should

979
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 2: be permissible when it comes to taking issue with interracial marriage.

980
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: Your thought on this comparison.

981
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:48,359
Speaker 3: I'm glad you're reminded me of this because I wanted

982
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 3: to point out Joel Webins kind of strange phrase normative

983
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 3: designer that he keeps using. That phrase generally goes against

984
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 3: God's normative design. I want to point out that it's

985
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 3: very odd for him. Norman. Norms can be of two kind.

986
00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 3: You can have norms just means it's typical. Like the

987
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 3: norm in the US is a two income family. That's

988
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 3: just typical. Doesn't mean good or bad. Just like you

989
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:14,399
Speaker 3: look around, it's the average person has two incomes. Mom

990
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 3: and dad are both working. Okay, that could be one

991
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:18,240
Speaker 3: kind of norm. But when you're talking about but norms

992
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:22,760
Speaker 3: coss me moral Like the norm of exclusivity in marriage,

993
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 3: like with fidelity in marriage is a norm. That's a

994
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 3: moral norm. But when you say that God's normative design

995
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 3: of God, that's a moral norm, right, You're not talking

996
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 3: about is what God typically sees in the universe. You know,

997
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 3: he ordains norms and says these are how you ought

998
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 3: to live. It's an out and obligation. Okay, So he

999
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 3: tends and the debate equivocates all the time between what

1000
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:52,359
Speaker 3: is typical and what is a moral norm. He uses

1001
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 3: the word norm for both, like he keeps talking about

1002
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 3: he's worried about, you know, white genocide and all whites

1003
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 3: being turned into like half white brown people. Because that's

1004
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,399
Speaker 3: if we embrace that interrational marriage as a norm. He means,

1005
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 3: there if racial interracial marriage becomes typical, like everyone's doing it.

1006
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 3: He accuses Ruslana of making interracial marriage a norm, but

1007
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,880
Speaker 3: he never does that, not meaning a moral norm, like

1008
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 3: you ought to marry a person of a different race.

1009
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 3: He's never said that, So it's all confused in Weabon's mind.

1010
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 3: And but here's the thing. When he says an eighteen

1011
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 3: year old marrying a six year old goes against God's

1012
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 3: normative design for marriage, I would say, no, it does

1013
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 3: not beat Why if you violate God's design for something,

1014
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 3: it is a sin. I can't think of a single

1015
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 3: example where I'd say this is God's design, it's this

1016
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 3: normative design and you knowingly reject it, that's a sin.

1017
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 3: It's not sometimes a sin, it's not prudentially a sin.

1018
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 3: For example, if I'm like, you know, you should be

1019
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 3: faithful within marriage that is God's design for marriage. It's

1020
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 3: his norm for marriage. And you break that norm, it's

1021
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 3: called a deeltery. If you say, human beings we know

1022
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 3: from natural lay or knit together in the mother's room.

1023
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 3: God designs them a certain way. Do you have that

1024
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 3: he has? They have a right to life. It's clear

1025
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 3: from nature that they are human beings, full persons in

1026
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 3: the womb. And therefore you're going against God's designed to

1027
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 3: treat them like a clump of like a like an

1028
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 3: inanmate object. You're going against his design. That's called murder. Right,

1029
00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 3: He's trying to smuggle in this category of it's against

1030
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:26,439
Speaker 3: God's normative design, is moral normative design, and can still

1031
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 3: not be a sin. But Joe, there's not a category

1032
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 3: like that. What he's confusing is prudential judgments. Of course,

1033
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 3: there can be things that are within the design of marriage.

1034
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 3: So for example, like a marriage between a man and

1035
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 3: a woman with a big age difference, they're not violating

1036
00:58:42,040 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 3: God's design for marriage. They are entering into probably a

1037
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 3: prudentially imprudent marriage. Right that you can say, now we

1038
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 3: can say that, we can say, now why do you

1039
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 3: think that I like give you all kinds of reasons. Right,

1040
00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 3: is she mature enough? Do they have anything in common?

1041
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 3: Are they gonna lead It's gonna lead to a fruitful, loving,

1042
00:58:58,040 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 3: fulfilling marriage. Right do they model Christ in the church?

1043
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 3: Who all these different other considerations that we take into

1044
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 3: account for every marriage. But they're not breaking God's design

1045
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 3: for marriage. In the case, if an zezure one man

1046
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 3: wanted to marry a dog, that's that's violating God's design

1047
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 3: for marriage. That's it. Period. This is a question of

1048
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 3: prudential judgment. And so again I think Joel is intentionally

1049
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 3: confusing these category or maybe unintentionally because in his mind

1050
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 3: he thinks is a matter of prudence. Another example would be,

1051
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 3: is it immoral to drive at seventy miles an hour

1052
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 3: in the highway? It depends it's prudential, right, how about eighty?

1053
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 3: How about one hundred and twenty on this normal interstate,

1054
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,919
Speaker 3: not the autobon. How about three thousand miles an hour

1055
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:46,240
Speaker 3: on the At some point you're getting this, you're like,

1056
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 3: that's definitely not safe. But you wouldn't see it violates

1057
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,680
Speaker 3: God's design for transportation. You'd just say there are other

1058
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 3: principles in scripture, like don't harm your neighbor, love others

1059
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 3: as you want to be loved. You wouldn't want someone

1060
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 3: driving three thousand miles an hour in the interstate, so

1061
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 3: you should either. But in those cases it is a

1062
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 3: matter of wisdom and prudence based on biblical principles. But

1063
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 3: there's no talk of design there. There's a law that

1064
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,800
Speaker 3: says thou shalt drive this because of speed limit universally.

1065
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 3: So again, I think the big problem that threughout the

1066
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,640
Speaker 3: debate was Webin constantly did this where he would flip

1067
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 3: flop back and forth between normous being typical and normous

1068
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 3: being a command and obligation and design as somehow you know, prudential,

1069
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 3: like I can choose to embrace God's design or not

1070
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 3: and is up to the circumstance.

1071
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 4: No.

1072
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 3: I again, I can't think of a single case where like,

1073
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 3: this is God's design for something, life, marriage, family, nations

1074
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 3: if you want to and just sometimes say it's okay,

1075
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 3: because Webin has to argue there can be a design

1076
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 3: that God's given you for some institution, for some attribute,

1077
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,600
Speaker 3: and you can reject that design and on occasion that's fine,

1078
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: it's permissible. It's not ideal because it's not God's design,

1079
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 3: but it's still I don't see that happening in scripture

1080
01:00:58,280 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 3: or in actual situations.

1081
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 2: That distinction about norms is really key. Some of the

1082
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 2: teaching on marriage and God's will that's really informed me

1083
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 2: is by Greg cocolon decision making, and he says, take

1084
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:12,959
Speaker 2: the issue of marriage, how do we decide who to marry?

1085
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 2: And think of like three concentric circles. One is God's

1086
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 2: moral will, which of course is God's design. It's somebody

1087
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 2: of the opposite sex, it's somebody, if divorced biblically free

1088
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 2: to remarry, and it's someone who's a believer. That's God's

1089
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 2: normative pattern for marriage. But then the other two circles

1090
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:40,120
Speaker 2: that overlap this one is wisdom. Is it wise if

1091
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 2: you're eighteen to marry somebody who is sixty you that's

1092
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 2: what you're talking about, prudential concerns. And then the other

1093
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:51,160
Speaker 2: circle that overlaps is preferences. And all of those need

1094
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:55,520
Speaker 2: to intersect. And it's important we don't confuse that an

1095
01:01:55,600 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 2: eighteen year old doesn't normally marry a sixty year old

1096
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 2: versus God's normative pattern for what marriage is and what

1097
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 2: makes it consistent with his design. Those are different things,

1098
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 2: and I think he makes the same mistake when it

1099
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 2: comes to race. All right, let's watch each of the

1100
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:21,040
Speaker 2: closing speeches briefly, get your take on this, and then

1101
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 2: we'll wrap it up. So let's take a look at

1102
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 2: webons closing speech or part of it.

1103
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 4: Sure, so we believe that nations are good.

1104
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: They're God's normative plan, and that if anyone is encouraging

1105
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: or promoting at scale in the macro as a positive, virtuous,

1106
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:47,439
Speaker 1: universal good mass inner racial marriage, that that actually goes

1107
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:49,439
Speaker 1: against God's normative plan.

1108
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 4: It is permissible in.

1109
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: The micro, might even be ideal in a micro situation,

1110
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: and a pastor or a father can counsel accordingly with

1111
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: his congregant, with his daughter, with his son. But in

1112
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: the macro, im if I'm presented with only two choices,

1113
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 1: after being called a rasist, after being publicly slandered saying

1114
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: that Joel is for capital punishment for interracial marriage, and

1115
01:03:14,200 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 1: then right now before everyone tell us, are you four

1116
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: or against those two options, then I would say yes,

1117
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: I would be generally against four. You're encouraging, promoting, advancing

1118
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: against your warning counseling, saying I think that in general

1119
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:35,680
Speaker 1: biblically permissible in the micro, but in general in the macro,

1120
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:41,400
Speaker 1: this goes against the normative plan of God for peoples, nations,

1121
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 1: and cultures.

1122
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:43,720
Speaker 4: That's my argument.

1123
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: That's how I would describe it from the Bible in

1124
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 1: a macro view using descriptive text. There's no prescriptive verse

1125
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:54,160
Speaker 1: that says do not intermarry racially. We recognize that, which

1126
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: is why we don't condemn it as a sin. But

1127
01:03:56,840 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 1: I do think that there are enough descriptive texts and

1128
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 1: the whole narrative scripture to say, yeah, this is the norm,

1129
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: this is the ner So you guys.

1130
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,200
Speaker 4: Ask for my Bible. That's that's my Bible.

1131
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: It's a macro descriptive argument from scripture and nature.

1132
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 2: That's a really helpful summary.

1133
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 3: Oh it is because he admits there's no verse.

1134
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me let me let me start over on

1135
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 2: that one with edding. That's a really helpful summary of

1136
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: his points and where he stands right at the end.

1137
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 2: Give me your take on it. Now that he's wrapping

1138
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 2: up his argument.

1139
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 3: It's great to hear him. Can see that there is

1140
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 3: no explicit commands at all in scripture. There's an implicit notice.

1141
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 3: He doesn't even list the verses that are supposedly implicitly

1142
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 3: supporting his argument. There's not even listed. At no point

1143
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 3: are they listened to, not even descriptions through nations. It's

1144
01:04:44,840 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 3: I think sens the Tower of Babbele at one point.

1145
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 3: But it's just a sort of hand waving argument, like

1146
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 3: it's in that narrative, narrative, this section, not in this passage,

1147
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,360
Speaker 3: not h But I want to raise it a really

1148
01:04:57,440 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 3: killer argument that in a rustling of focused on the Bible,

1149
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 3: which is phenomenal and the basic logical poudations, I want

1150
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 3: to take aim at that actual argument. So he's arguing

1151
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 3: an argument is that God provincially created nations made up

1152
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 3: supposedly accord of these biological races, which is totally false.

1153
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 3: Like they're French races, the French race and the Spanish race.

1154
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 3: They're their own countries and it's important for them to

1155
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:26,880
Speaker 3: have these distinct biological features which they don't have. And therefore,

1156
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 3: if if you intermarry French and German too much, you

1157
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 3: dilute the solidarity of the French race, and that's gonna

1158
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 3: be bad for the nation. That's that's the argument again,

1159
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 3: which is already wrong biologically. But here's the interesting point.

1160
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 3: They keep saying over and over that it was God's

1161
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 3: plan as an intention to create these distinct races that

1162
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 3: form nations. And he's actually using Stephen Wolfe's definition of

1163
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 3: ethnicity slash nation from his book Case for Christian Nationalism.

1164
01:05:56,640 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 3: But this is, you know, this is the idea that's

1165
01:05:57,960 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 3: out there in Christian national circles. Here's the thing. They

1166
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 3: keep appealing to God's intention, in God's plan, in God's

1167
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 3: sovereign purpose in providence, because we see it. We see

1168
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 3: he made these nations that are distinct. We see the genetics,

1169
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 3: you have the data. Here's the problem. There's something called ethnogenesis,

1170
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 3: which he actually mentioned in the debate. That they know

1171
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 3: that some people groups, some nations of people, that is,

1172
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 3: people groups like the French or the Spanish, were created

1173
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 3: in history. Right, they would appeal to saying, there's Noah's

1174
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 3: three sons creating the three big buckets. But then they

1175
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:36,160
Speaker 3: diversified even further. So they admit that there at one

1176
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 3: point there were no French people. There were none at

1177
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 3: some later point in history, there were some French people

1178
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 3: where they come from. Well, they want to make it

1179
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 3: seem like there is some founder who's the first guy

1180
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 3: named Frank the Frenchman, who then all of his kids

1181
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 3: that were French. Right, But we know historically that's not

1182
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 3: what happened. There has been inevitable or there has been

1183
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 3: countless numbers of intermarriage or make seeing conquests, migrations. I mean,

1184
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 3: just think rationally, think about England. We like England, you know,

1185
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 3: big ben and tea and cricket. In our book post

1186
01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 3: what we go through the actual history of England from

1187
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 3: the Druids, the invention of the introduction of Christianity around

1188
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 3: around five hundred eighty as a resurgence, when it becomes

1189
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 3: from a Christianish nation, the Norman conquest in the tent

1190
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:28,280
Speaker 3: the eleventh century. Then the French became a big part

1191
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 3: of the English language. How it's Germanic in origin. How

1192
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 3: we have the influence of tea from the East Indies

1193
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 3: through through trade and imperialism, all the things we take

1194
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 3: as the English culture and the English race. This is

1195
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,760
Speaker 3: a blend, a hodgepodge, like every single nation on Earth

1196
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 3: has always been. And what's more, if you're going to

1197
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 3: point to God's provincial action in history to create the

1198
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 3: French nations, say, well, he also created it providentially, these

1199
01:07:58,640 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 3: other nations, through intermarriage, through mixing, through pull assimilation, through

1200
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 3: all these processes. So and they're gonna appeal that to

1201
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 3: as No, they're taking that descriptive action of God, a

1202
01:08:13,400 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 3: proinential action, and attributing it to his design. Cool. Then

1203
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:22,639
Speaker 3: I can then equally say God intended immigration mass immigration

1204
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:25,520
Speaker 3: to come to the US to make a new Ethnos,

1205
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 3: that's brown, and Joe would no, you can't do that. Wait,

1206
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 3: why Joel, That's God's plan. You don't know it yet,

1207
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 3: But in a two hundred years, when we're all brown,

1208
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 3: then you will say, oh, the glorious American brown nation

1209
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 3: was caused by God's providence. Now I'm not even making

1210
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,600
Speaker 3: any claims or of mast immigration. My point is his

1211
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 3: argument is fundamentally logically flawed because all every nation on

1212
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 3: Earth has been created through of conquest, defeat, colonization, intermarriage, blending, mixing,

1213
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 3: languages have changed people groups of change. So and this is,

1214
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:04,200
Speaker 3: by the way, guys, this is why when you do

1215
01:09:04,240 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 3: like the twenty three med DNA test, most people in

1216
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:11,759
Speaker 3: the world are like ten percent Welsh and five percent

1217
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 3: English and ten percent French and fifteen percent, especially in America.

1218
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 3: So to me, that is just a knock in argument.

1219
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 3: Is this whole way of thinking about what the nation is.

1220
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:28,280
Speaker 3: It is not a biological category. It just is that.

1221
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,719
Speaker 3: And last thing I'll say is every nation on Earth

1222
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 3: throughout history has had minority groups. Ancient Israel, as as

1223
01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 3: Avery mentioned, had whole categories of sojourners, foreigners, people that

1224
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:46,639
Speaker 3: came they lived among the Israelites who are often retreated

1225
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 3: respectfully the same laws the Israelites had that they were

1226
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 3: native racial in Jill's terminology, outsiders that were welcome to

1227
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 3: Israel when they When the Israetes left Egypt, they left

1228
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 3: a mixed multitude. Look it up. That refers to many

1229
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:08,520
Speaker 3: different ethnic groups that left with the Jews, the Israelites.

1230
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 3: Israel has always been a multi racial nation. It's predominantly

1231
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 3: the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but they always

1232
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 3: included an element that lived among them freely of people

1233
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 3: of foreign set, a different race. And so this idea

1234
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:31,040
Speaker 3: of it just doesn't make any sense historically to claim

1235
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 3: that every single nation on Earth is racially pure in

1236
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 3: their terminology. That is not true by historically, it's not

1237
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 3: true biologically totally false. So there goes their argument, and.

1238
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 2: That's not true in countries like Brazil, that's not true

1239
01:10:45,320 --> 01:10:47,559
Speaker 2: in modern day Israel. They planted that out in a

1240
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 2: whole bunch of different.

1241
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 3: Oh yeah as well.

1242
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,719
Speaker 2: So I think your argument is very well stated and important.

1243
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 2: Let's watch Ruslan's closing uh, and then get your take

1244
01:10:57,439 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 2: on that one good stuff.

1245
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:07,840
Speaker 6: That dominion mandate was an amazing argument from silent stroll.

1246
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 6: I have never heard anything that exhaustive from that little scripture. Respectfully,

1247
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 6: I think you kind of conceded a debate and you

1248
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:17,320
Speaker 6: said there's no prescriptive text. You're just weeding together stuff

1249
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 6: from descriptive passages and a little bit of natural law

1250
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 6: reform theology.

1251
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know how you come to

1252
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 4: these concludes. I mean, I know how you come to

1253
01:11:23,760 --> 01:11:24,840
Speaker 4: these conclusions.

1254
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:26,560
Speaker 6: But I think it's it's just I'm really impressed with

1255
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 6: how you were able to weave all this together.

1256
01:11:28,439 --> 01:11:29,600
Speaker 4: I want to go to John's.

1257
01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: Seven pressed by the sarcasm, okay, because you're laying it

1258
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 1: on pretty thicks, I am.

1259
01:11:34,400 --> 01:11:36,599
Speaker 6: I want to go to John because I think John

1260
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 6: in Roman Revelations mean John speaking of Revelation seven to nine.

1261
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:44,600
Speaker 4: We have the Greek. We have nation, which means athos

1262
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 4: people group.

1263
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 6: This is not a race, there's in any modern biological sense,

1264
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,360
Speaker 6: which again that word didn't pop in and so about

1265
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 6: five hundred years ago. This is just as modern as

1266
01:11:53,360 --> 01:11:56,559
Speaker 6: a lot of the gender theory nonsense. We have tribe clan,

1267
01:11:57,120 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 6: which is about a kinship lineage, family line Israel's use.

1268
01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 6: And then we have people, a covenant word used to

1269
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 6: describe God's people. John is not collapsing humanity into a single,

1270
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,960
Speaker 6: flattened category. So it's okay, all you white men is

1271
01:12:13,000 --> 01:12:15,559
Speaker 6: going to be fine. Nor is he freezing them into

1272
01:12:15,600 --> 01:12:22,719
Speaker 6: a permanent segregated order. He's doing something much more dangerous

1273
01:12:22,720 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 6: to ethnic purity. He preserves distinction without hierarchy. Why all

1274
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 6: of this undermines this entire natural law equals separation even

1275
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:31,760
Speaker 6: though we have no scripture, and we did we were

1276
01:12:31,760 --> 01:12:32,759
Speaker 6: breaking the rules of logic.

1277
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:37,120
Speaker 2: All right, Yeah, you take on his closing.

1278
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:41,839
Speaker 3: It's the great closing. I think the appeal the revelation

1279
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:45,000
Speaker 3: seven nine is important because throughout the debate, Webin and

1280
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,839
Speaker 3: others were saying that how can we have many nations

1281
01:12:47,840 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 3: and ethnicities and peoples gathered around the throne if we

1282
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 3: destroy them, make us one big homogeneous round goo. And

1283
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:55,719
Speaker 3: first of all, the answer viot bands would be because

1284
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 3: we've had nations for thousands of years already. There's plenty

1285
01:12:57,800 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 3: of tribes, nations and tongues to gather at, and worship

1286
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 3: is already. If for whatever reason, we all turned into

1287
01:13:03,280 --> 01:13:06,840
Speaker 3: one homogenious brown you know, brown people, it'll be okay.

1288
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 3: Jesus will receive the works he deserves. But I think

1289
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 3: he's putting out that there's so much I could say,

1290
01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 3: just if you just say that iterational marriage is just fine.

1291
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:21,599
Speaker 3: It's not good or bad. It's not the only thing

1292
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 3: you can do. It's not the thing you can't do.

1293
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 3: It's just it's your preference.

1294
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 6: Right.

1295
01:13:26,120 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 3: Statistically, interracial marriage in the US day, where it's widely accepted,

1296
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 3: it is still only like nineteen percent of current marriage.

1297
01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 3: Is let alone in the past, but just current marriage,

1298
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:39,720
Speaker 3: only nineteen percent of interracial marriage, and most are like

1299
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:43,439
Speaker 3: white and Hispanic. Actually it's the biggest category, which often

1300
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 3: like the Hispanics and Whites are often very much European descent. Anyway,

1301
01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:52,240
Speaker 3: it's like, what are we even doing? So I don't

1302
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 3: think that concern if people are serious, like, well, I

1303
01:13:54,160 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 3: worry that will all just become uniform and homogenious and

1304
01:13:57,040 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 3: Jesus will be robbed of diversity in heaven. It's like, well, again,

1305
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 3: we have a past two thousand years or for whatever

1306
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 3: years of diversity that people welcoming into Jesus Kingdom will

1307
01:14:07,439 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 3: be okay. But more than that, just if inertia is

1308
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:12,800
Speaker 3: not gonna make us all homogeneous, people from China will

1309
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,679
Speaker 3: always likely want to marry out the Chinese. Why because

1310
01:14:15,680 --> 01:14:18,840
Speaker 3: they're around Chinese people, They're just looking around. Maybe in

1311
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 3: a place like America will have more mixing than we

1312
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 3: wouldn't stay in China or these or in India where

1313
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 3: I get that, Okay, And if you and if you,

1314
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:28,120
Speaker 3: by the way, if you say, well, I want to

1315
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 3: preserve America's you know, heritage. I want to preserve the

1316
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:36,439
Speaker 3: European news of America. Like okay, maybe and maybe have

1317
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 3: other reasons to not like mass immigration. I shure there's concerns.

1318
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 3: There's legitimate concerns. I'm not downplaying them. I'm just pointing

1319
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:48,679
Speaker 3: out that you can say I would prefer to retain

1320
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 3: this sense of European Anglo American news that we have

1321
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 3: been part of history for ages. Just like a Japanese

1322
01:14:57,200 --> 01:15:00,920
Speaker 3: person wants to retain Japanese culture, and that just the

1323
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:03,760
Speaker 3: just all the parts of including the way they physically look.

1324
01:15:04,080 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 3: That you can that's a fine preference. It's not a sin, okay,

1325
01:15:07,400 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 3: But keep in mind nations are transient. They don't last forever.

1326
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:16,000
Speaker 3: You know, who's seen the hit that empire hit that

1327
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 3: empire mighty hit, tights, tun centuries of conquest, the Assyrians, Babylonians, powerhouses, threats,

1328
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,759
Speaker 3: they are gone, they are gone, they are They're crickets.

1329
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:29,439
Speaker 3: There's jackals. God talks about that there. We cannot put

1330
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:32,719
Speaker 3: our hope in some supposed blood purity, or even in

1331
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 3: our blood and heritage, which I love America, but we

1332
01:15:36,080 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 3: have a kingdom. It's eternal. All the things we love

1333
01:15:39,040 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 3: about America we preserve in the New Havens, the New Earth.

1334
01:15:41,200 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 3: We're gonna be Americans, guys. You know it's not gonna

1335
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 3: be let down, like, oh no, we've lost it all.

1336
01:15:46,520 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 3: We're all speaking Hebrew. Now, we're gonna have our distinctives,

1337
01:15:49,360 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 3: as as Rustin points out, and rejoice in them. But

1338
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,120
Speaker 3: they're not gonna be the center of heaven. They're gonna

1339
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 3: it's gonna be Jesus the center, and so yeah, I

1340
01:15:57,760 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 3: just want to be clear, I am not I I

1341
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 3: was being tongue in cheek when I talked about us

1342
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 3: all being brown. It's not about that. It's just as

1343
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:09,840
Speaker 3: we have to have biblical categories for what matters and

1344
01:16:09,840 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 3: what doesn't matter in marriage, in religion, in worship, and

1345
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:15,960
Speaker 3: we have the center of those things and the things

1346
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:20,360
Speaker 3: that God does not care about, like blood purity, we

1347
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 3: have to not care about either because we want to

1348
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 3: have the mind of Christ about these things. Again, if

1349
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:28,280
Speaker 3: you preferences different, but insistence that this is God's design

1350
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:30,440
Speaker 3: not on the table.

1351
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 2: Neil, this is good stuff. There's some other questions I

1352
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 2: was going to ask you, but I feel like you

1353
01:16:34,240 --> 01:16:37,519
Speaker 2: kind of brought it to a culmination there and drove

1354
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 2: home after rus Lawn's closing. What really matters how we

1355
01:16:42,040 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 2: think about this. Your book Post Woke is great. I

1356
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,080
Speaker 2: just reading my Norseman here. I said, this is on

1357
01:16:48,160 --> 01:16:51,400
Speaker 2: my must read list for every Christian. And in some

1358
01:16:51,439 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 2: ways you're responding to wokeness on the left. But there's

1359
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 2: a kind of reactionary wokeness, and there's debate about whether

1360
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:01,400
Speaker 2: we call it that or not. On the right that

1361
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:04,840
Speaker 2: makes some of those same mistakes. And I think your

1362
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 2: book is excellent in that regard. I hope people will

1363
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:10,360
Speaker 2: pick it up. Any last thing you want to say,

1364
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:14,080
Speaker 2: anything we missed about this debate about this topic.

1365
01:17:15,840 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 3: I would like just to say, make a plug from

1366
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,120
Speaker 3: my book. It's called post woke for a reason. I

1367
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 3: think many of us feel like we're kind of beyond

1368
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:26,360
Speaker 3: the peak woke period. It's lost in steam. Yes, but guys,

1369
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 3: I'm begging you, especially parents, you need to understand like

1370
01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:33,920
Speaker 3: things like race and ethnicity and gender and sexuality from

1371
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:36,680
Speaker 3: a biblical perspective. You can't just say, but I'm conservative,

1372
01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,160
Speaker 3: I don't have to worry about all the left wing wokeness.

1373
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:42,760
Speaker 3: That's not thinking biblically. Our book is about thinking of

1374
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:46,599
Speaker 3: biblically these categories. And you might be immune to left

1375
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 3: wing craziness, but your kids might not be immune to

1376
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,879
Speaker 3: right wing craziness. And it's it's it's it's equally dangerous,

1377
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:57,080
Speaker 3: but it is dangerous. It's not biblical. A We're gonna

1378
01:17:57,080 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 3: be people of script I sure, or people of our

1379
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:04,280
Speaker 3: political tribes. So I'm just pleading with you. I've seen

1380
01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:08,599
Speaker 3: so many kids and students get lost to the woke left,

1381
01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:12,000
Speaker 3: and I'm seeing it happening with the dissident right. Get

1382
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 3: their heads on straight, and that it happens through good

1383
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:18,320
Speaker 3: biblical categories like we're trying to present in the book.

1384
01:18:18,439 --> 01:18:20,240
Speaker 3: So that's my only Please.

1385
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:22,640
Speaker 2: Neil, thanks for coming on. You're the perfect person to

1386
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 2: ask because you've thought about these issues and some death

1387
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:25,559
Speaker 2: you're willing.

1388
01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:28,200
Speaker 3: I'm half Indian, right, so I've got to get both

1389
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:30,320
Speaker 3: sides here. It's in one person.

1390
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:33,839
Speaker 2: Had to play that card at the end of course.

1391
01:18:34,040 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 2: No's that's that's really fun to my viewers and listeners.

1392
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:38,600
Speaker 3: Let me know.

1393
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:41,439
Speaker 2: This is a deeper dive response to a debate than

1394
01:18:41,520 --> 01:18:44,920
Speaker 2: I typically do. We're trying some different things in the

1395
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:48,280
Speaker 2: channel and really want to hear from you what's helpful,

1396
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:50,599
Speaker 2: what's not helpful in terms of the length, in terms

1397
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 2: of the topic from me and where I'm at at Talbot.

1398
01:18:53,479 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 2: What would be the most interesting and equipping and helpful

1399
01:18:56,439 --> 01:18:58,960
Speaker 2: to you, whether you are a Christian or not.

1400
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 3: Please let me know.

1401
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 2: Make sure you hit subscribe. We do have some other

1402
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 2: conversations coming up on topics like Michael Heiser, near death

1403
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 2: experiences and a range of other ones having a discussion

1404
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 2: soon on annihilationism and hell in depth you won't want

1405
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 2: to miss. If you thought of a studying apologetics, we

1406
01:19:18,200 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 2: would love to have you. At top School Theology. We

1407
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:24,320
Speaker 2: have a full class taught by my colleague Scott Smith

1408
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,920
Speaker 2: where he goes into critical theory in depth from a

1409
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 2: philosophical perspective. The last thing I'll say is we also

1410
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:35,280
Speaker 2: have a certificate program. It's not a master's whereas if

1411
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:36,920
Speaker 2: you thought, you know what, I want to study these

1412
01:19:36,960 --> 01:19:39,799
Speaker 2: topics and some depth, but I'm not ready for masters,

1413
01:19:39,800 --> 01:19:42,560
Speaker 2: we will walk you through some leading lectures of scholars

1414
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 2: in the world and help you really understand some of

1415
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 2: these topics. All right, Neil, this is fun. We'll do

1416
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:51,280
Speaker 2: it again soon, brother, Thanks so much.

1417
01:19:51,320 --> 01:19:51,559
Speaker 3: Sean.

1418
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:54,680
Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1419
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,679
Speaker 2: fall button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1420
01:19:57,760 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet and it makes a huge

1421
01:20:00,160 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

1422
01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:07,280
Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

1423
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:10,639
Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1424
01:20:10,760 --> 01:20:14,560
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1425
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

1426
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 2: spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible, and so much more.

1427
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively, live, teach,

1428
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Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today, and we will see

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Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops