1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer, 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in 4 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged, 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with 7 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to 8 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert, 9 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened, 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the 12 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs 13 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour. 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio, 16 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history, 18 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and 19 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more 20 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if 21 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German 22 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard, 23 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series, 24 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places, 25 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping 26 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. 27 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: So let's get started. 28 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome back to this segment of Thinking Christian. 29 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: We just finished talking a little bit about Martin Luther 30 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: and his conscience and some of the things that his 31 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: conscience ultimately led him to. And so in this segment, 32 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: what we want to talk about a little bit is 33 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: what was done to try to shake Martin Luther out 34 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: of this sort of downward cycle we might call it, 35 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: that he was on. And one of the first things 36 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: that his mentor triede was to send them to Rome. 37 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: And so I want to talk a little bit about 38 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: what he found in Rome and then ultimately what he 39 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: finds in Vittenberg. But maybe before that, let's talk a 40 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: little bit about the context of the Augustinian monetary necessary, 41 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: what they're practicing there and how that matched up with 42 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: the actual teachings of Augustine, not in depth, but just 43 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: in general. So what's going on in this Augustinian monastery 44 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: we've already mentioned, you know, they're kind of taking care 45 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: of the things in daily life. They're begging on the street. 46 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: This is a fairly poor regiment. But what sort of 47 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: things are they doing there as a cadence of life 48 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: and particularly from a religious perspective. 49 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, they're following the Augustinian order, which is an 50 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 3: order that you know, Augustine is writing. So in that sense, 51 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 3: there are they are Augustinian, I think the layer that's 52 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: on top. And well, let me back up a little bit. Sure, 53 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: there's a tendency to try to make Augustine either Roman 54 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 3: Catholic or Protestant. So is he Roman Catholic or Protestant? 55 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 3: And the answer to that is yes. Yeah. He believed 56 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: in purgatory, he accepted the apocrypha, he believed in justification 57 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 3: by faith. He talked about the necessity of good works. 58 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: So you've got this, all these things that you and 59 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 3: I see as incompatible because we're post Reformation. 60 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: He is not. He is not. 61 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 3: Forced to make the kinds of decisions that we are 62 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: being forced to make ironically because of Luther. So the 63 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 3: piece that's layered on top is there's a whole bunch 64 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 3: of stuff that has been added post Augustine into Catholic 65 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 3: thought and practice that we've talked about in previous programs. 66 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 3: We talked about seven old Sacramental system and. 67 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 2: Da da da da Da Da Da da da Da. 68 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 3: So those layers are all on top, and this is 69 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 3: I think it's fair to say, more Pelagian in orientation. 70 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 2: That's a kind of big term. 71 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: There's more of an emphasis on free will in that 72 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: sense in the medieval Catholic Church than than there is 73 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 3: in Augustine himself or Augustine depending on whether you're from 74 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: the North of the South. 75 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: I guess I don't know whatever. And so. 76 00:04:55,080 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: Is it pure Augustinianism, No? Is it Augustinianism, Yes, it's 77 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 3: Augustinian and this Augustinianism being practiced in the context of 78 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 3: late medieval early modern Europe Catholicism. So there's there's a 79 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: layer on top, and that layer is both reinforcing elements 80 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 3: but also adding elements to the whole Augustinian piece. 81 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: Okay, and the Augustinian monks, and this may be delving 82 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: into an area where or maybe. 83 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 2: We just have to decide. We don't know right now. 84 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: But if you were to look at a at a 85 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: Dominican monastery at the time, and then you're to compare 86 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: it to the Augustinian monastery, I'm envisioning some commonalities, but 87 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 1: I'm also envisioning some really vast differences. So you know, 88 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: daily life still has to be taking care of, right, 89 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: But within a Dominican monastery, I'm almost picturing like and 90 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: maybe i'm you can correct this picture, but you know, 91 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: a Dominican monastery, I almost view it as like there's 92 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: going to be a hierarchy in the rookies that are 93 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: coming in are really taking care of most of the 94 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: menial labor tasks to support the intellectual and spiritual life 95 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: of the upper tier monks, and then you move up 96 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: the ranks, almost like the army, right versus what I 97 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: think I understand the Yugustinian side is like, yeah, there 98 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: may be a hierarchy, there's seniority, there's you know, different things, 99 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: but we're all really just involved in this impoverished lifestyle 100 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: and really trying to live it as best we can. 101 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: How fair is that characterization? Fairly fair? Okay. 102 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 3: The difference is Dominicans tended to be associated with the 103 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 3: upper class in terms of their ministry. Yeah, so they're 104 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 3: not a begging order. They're they're a wealth that they have, 105 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 3: they have more money. 106 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: They're getting donations essentially from this upper echelon of people 107 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 1: within society. 108 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 2: The better support that. So if who who is who are. 109 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 3: The ministers around the court, They're likely to be Dominicans. 110 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: Okay. 111 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: The Augustinians are not going to be hanging out with 112 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 3: the prince very much, so there they tend to be. 113 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 3: I think that's a fair Yeah, I don't. I don't 114 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 3: believe that Dominicans are a begging order the same way 115 00:07:54,520 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 3: Augustinians are. And the the Augustinian order in air Fort 116 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: is they don't have cash. It's a poor order. Yeah, 117 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 3: they are not well funded. Maybe that's another way to 118 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 3: put it. 119 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: You know, I almost envisioned and I realize any of 120 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: these analogies have we're gonna have their shortcomings. But when 121 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: I think about the Augustinian monks, my mind goes to 122 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: the Jesus people in the nineteen seventies, right, you know, 123 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: like almost the hippies who are just coming into town 124 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: to say Jesus with people they really don't have that much, 125 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: and you're kind of like, why is this strange person here. 126 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: You know, he's saying he has something for me, but 127 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: it sure seems like he wants something from me too, 128 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, that kind of idea. And we did hear 129 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: about this when we visited the Augustinian monastery in Germany. 130 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: We hear a little about the community's negative reception of 131 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: the Augustinian monks when they come and sort of the 132 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: winding road that brought them to the place where they 133 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: actually then could build a monastery in what was essentially 134 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: a marsh or swamp area there in the town. They 135 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 1: gave him the most worthless piece of land they could 136 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,239 Speaker 1: find and said, here, use this exactly. 137 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 3: Yeah that, Yeah, you're you're getting the picture. And you know, 138 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: I'm not an expert on every order in every place 139 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 3: throughout the Empire, throughout Europe, but my understanding is it 140 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 3: was less prestigious to be an Augustinian than it was 141 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 3: to be a Dominican. 142 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: Example. 143 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so we've got this Augustinian order that sort 144 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: of has a that's been contextualized or immersed within this 145 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: particular time and place. So it's taking on the character 146 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: of that particular time and place, but it's still at 147 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: its core has sort of a backbone that's Augustinian. 148 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 2: That's not working for Luther. 149 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: You know, we talked last episode about all these different 150 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: things Luther's doing, spending eight hours in confession, beating himself, 151 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: all these different areas, and his mentor then ultimately sends 152 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: him to Rome, hoping I think he's if I remember right, well, 153 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: maybe you can just explain it why he sends him 154 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,199 Speaker 1: to Rome, what task he's actually sending him there to do, 155 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: and then what Luther's impression is of Rome. Having visited 156 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: and lived there for a bit. 157 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 3: There's a dispute that develops among the Augustinians, and I 158 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: don't remember exactly. 159 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: What it was, but he gives. 160 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: Luther the opportunity to go to Rome. He hopes part 161 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: of this will be going to Rome will loosen lessen 162 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 3: some of this burden that he's struggling. Luther's very excited 163 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 3: about this. He gets to Rome and what he finds, frankly, 164 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 3: just discuss him. Rome is fairly corrupt. There is a 165 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: high degree of corruption in the church. 166 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 2: There is. 167 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 3: Lots of illicit sexual activity going on among the clergy. 168 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 3: There is the buying and selling of trinkets all over 169 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 3: the place. He is appalled by what he finds, frankly. 170 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 2: And so. 171 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 3: Instead of this loosening his burden, he comes back disenchanted 172 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 3: by what he sees. And so at this point there's 173 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 3: this new university that's developing. 174 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 2: He knows that Luther is very. 175 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 3: Smart, and so he gives him an opportunity to go 176 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:21,599 Speaker 3: study the scriptures at this new university in Wittenberg. The 177 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 3: crown prince there is Frederick the Wise. He has one 178 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 3: of the largest collections of relics, which the irony here 179 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 3: is this gets you time off purgatory. 180 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 2: So he is going to bite. 181 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 3: The hand that feeds him, and so he sends Luther 182 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 3: there to get his doctorate in theology, which is basically 183 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: means he's going to lecture from or preach from the 184 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 3: scriptures virtually every day of the week. That's eventually what 185 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 3: he's going to end up doing. 186 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: So he doesn't it's not like a trade showing we 187 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 1: hear go and get a doctorate. It's not that traditional 188 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: sort of I'm going to sit in the library and 189 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: research amounts of stuff and then eventually write a paper 190 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: that nobody reads. It's a little bit more pastoral and focus, 191 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: although there is deep study and research involved. 192 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 3: Yes, I cannot tell you the details of the curriculum 193 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 3: in an early modern doctoral program, but I do know 194 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: it would have been rigorous study. It would have been 195 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:36,199 Speaker 3: significant time working through texts in original languages. And this 196 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: would have been on the cusp of the Renaissance. The 197 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 3: Renaissance is moving up from Italy into Germany, and so, 198 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 3: for example, fifteen sixteen, Erasmus's Greek New Testament appears. There's 199 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 3: all this new interest in texts and original languages moving 200 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 3: beyond the Latin et ceterac, et cetera, et cetera, And 201 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 3: so Luther is going to be going to texts and 202 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 3: going to text in the original languages, and that's going 203 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 3: to be revolutionary for him, non Latin texts, both Latin 204 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: and non Latin. 205 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: Yes, he would have done both, but he's he's diving 206 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: into the Greek and potentially the Hebrew. 207 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 2: I don't remember that exactly. 208 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: Yes, he does, Okay, definitely though the Greek in the 209 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: New Testament. He's diving into the Greek, not the Latin. 210 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: And just to give people a little bit of insight 211 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,440 Speaker 1: into what we're what we're really talking about here, right, 212 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 1: the sequencing of the Greek, you know, the Hebrew, the 213 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: Greek and the Latin manuscripts. I'll give my little spiel, 214 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: and then I'll let you correct what needs to be 215 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: corrected or filling gaps. Old Testament, or as Dan Block 216 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: would say, First Testament is written in Hebrew originally, that's 217 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: translated ultimately into Greek, which is called the septuagen Uh. 218 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: Then you have the New Testament, which is largely written 219 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: in Greek. It's actually all written in Greek. I shouldn't 220 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: say largely. It's written in Greek. And that was eventually 221 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: translated into Latin, which became the lingua franca of the 222 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: time for kind of a short a relatively short period, 223 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: and then was almost transitioned into a language of the hierarchy, 224 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: the you know, the the hegemony, right. It was a 225 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: more formal language that wasn't really spoken. It was almost 226 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: like a language for bureaucrats and religious muckety mond wage 227 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: scholarly language there. Yeah, so is that a that's a 228 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: fair characterization. The only thing I think I might have 229 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: gotten wrong is I don't know that Latin was ever 230 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: really the lingua franca. I think it was almost always 231 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: a little bit obscure, was it not people. 232 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 3: Did well, there would have been there would have been 233 00:15:58,320 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: a period of time when it would have been the 234 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: language of the of the Roman Empire. But as as 235 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: that as the Western Empire disintegrates, yeah, so it. 236 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 2: Right, So. 237 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 3: It becomes the standard language of the academic community, particularly 238 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 3: in the West. And as modern Europe develops, and we 239 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 3: get the development of these what were originally tribal languages German, French, 240 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: in all these sorts of things, the common language in 241 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: the academic communities, in the in the scholarly was Latin. 242 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 3: And so Jerome's Latin Vulgate became the Bible for Christian Europe. 243 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: And it was a Bible, sorry, go ahead, that was 244 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 3: both that was Old and First and Second Testament. 245 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: And it was it was translated from the Hebrew and 246 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: the Greek, or at least from the Greek and the Greek, 247 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: you know, like from a septuagen to. 248 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:08,439 Speaker 2: Latin. 249 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: And so what we're dealing with as Luther is and 250 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: now there's this renaissance of Greek manuscripts coming in at 251 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: the time when Luther is kind of beginning his doctoral studies. 252 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: What we're really dealing with is a situation where you 253 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: could read the Latin Vulgate, the Latin manuscripts of the Bible, 254 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: and go, huh, that doesn't seem quite to fit with 255 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: what I'm seeing in the Greek manuscripts. 256 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 2: And so this whole. 257 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: Area of translation, what counts as an accurate translation, How 258 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: is a translation really more of an interpretation of an 259 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: original manuscript? All those kind of conversations that we're relatively 260 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: familiar with now that we have Bibles in English, Like 261 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: we know those English Bibles aren't the original manuscripts, but 262 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: we also because we have so many, we can kind 263 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 1: of see that these interpretive decisions, these translation decisions are 264 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: relatively common across and so Luther's not he doesn't have 265 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 1: that sort of benefit that we do today. He's really 266 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: just now comparing a Latin manuscript a Greek manuscript and 267 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: then trying to figure out, how do I convey this 268 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: in German in a way that stays faithful to the text. 269 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 1: And it's within that sort of nexus that he begins 270 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: to realize something he didn't know before. 271 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's not driven by his translation work per se. Yeah, 272 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 3: it's driven by his own anxiety. So I meant most 273 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 3: people agree that the critical years for Luther are between 274 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 3: fifteen thirteen and fifteen sixteen. Somewhere in that framework, he 275 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 3: starts to develop a new understanding of the scriptures. 276 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 2: And so. 277 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 3: He's reading, for example, in the Book of SOMs and 278 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 3: he gets the Psalm thirty one, verse one, and you, 279 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 3: oh Lord, I have put my faith or something like that, 280 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 3: deliver me in your righteousness. I'm paraphrasing, but yeah, that's right. Yeah, 281 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 3: the critical phrase for Luther is deliver me in your righteousness. 282 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 3: This is a psalm of David as he understands it, 283 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 3: and what drives him nuts about this text is David 284 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 3: seems to be saying to God, because you are righteous, 285 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 3: deliver me. 286 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 2: Now. 287 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 3: The implication is that David is saying, I am a 288 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,439 Speaker 3: righteous person and since you are a righteous God, you 289 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: should deliver me. 290 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: Now. 291 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 3: The problem is or Luther knows David is not a 292 00:19:55,119 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 3: righteous person, right, and so he is absolutely flummixed by 293 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: this statement. What is wrong with this? 294 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: God never ask God. 295 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 3: To deal with you on the basis of his righteousness. 296 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 3: So in Luther's understanding, and this is again we've talked 297 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 3: about this before. Why does God damn people to hell? 298 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: Answer? 299 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 3: Because he is righteous? What is wrong with David? David 300 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: is praying, Dear Lord, damn me to hell. Who never 301 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 3: ask God for never ask God to give you what 302 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 3: he owes you. 303 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 304 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, So he cannot figure this out. He cannot figure 305 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: out why David is not saying, deliver me in your mercy, 306 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 3: deliver me in your grace, deliver me in your He's 307 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 3: just completely stuck there. What turns him is when he 308 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 3: goes to the Book of Romans and he starts reading, 309 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 3: I'm not a shame to the Gospel. 310 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: It's the power of God issavation. 311 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: When niry One believes that the Jew first and under 312 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 3: the Greek in the Gospel, a righteousness of God is revealed. Yeah, 313 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 3: that's interesting. A righteousness that is from first to last. 314 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 3: And then he quotes it back at four and forth, 315 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 3: just as it is written, the just shall live by 316 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 3: faith faith. And at some point he begins to connect 317 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 3: ideas and he starts to say, maybe David is righteous, 318 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 3: and maybe David is righteous because the good news of 319 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 3: the Gospel is that righteousness is a gift. If the 320 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 3: righteousness of God is revealed in the Gospel. It must 321 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 3: be different than what it was at the First Testament 322 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 3: somehow or something. What is this revelation of righteousness in 323 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: the Gospel? 324 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: And he argues. 325 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 3: Then that God makes his righteousness available to us on 326 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 3: the condition of faith, That is that when people put 327 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: their faith in God, God in turn grants them righteousness, 328 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:43,199 Speaker 3: so that they are righteous, not because they are righteous, 329 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 3: but because they have received God's righteousness. Now theologians call 330 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 3: this imputed righteousness. I like Luther's term much better. He 331 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 3: calls it alien righteousness. It's in us, but it's not 332 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 3: ours sides in us, but is not generated by us. 333 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:11,880 Speaker 3: That is going to be the huge difference. He believed 334 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 3: that the Church was teaching him that he could become righteous, 335 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 3: that is, that when he received grace from the sacraments, 336 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: it would cause him to become a righteous person. He 337 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 3: came to the conclusion that he could never become righteous, yeah, 338 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 3: that his only hope was an external righteousness, not his 339 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 3: own righteousness. That even by grace, he could not become righteous. 340 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 3: By grace, he could receive righteousness but not become righteous, 341 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 3: at least not to the extent that he would merit 342 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: God's favor or acceptance, and so that that is the twist, 343 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 3: and he's getting that from the text. Now that's going 344 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: to start spinning the way through. So so our listeners 345 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 3: probably you know, the only thing that some of the 346 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 3: man have said, well I've heard about Luther in fifteen seventeen, 347 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 3: the third ninety five thesis, right, well, you ought to 348 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,360 Speaker 3: read them. The first thing you're going to do is say, well, 349 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 3: this is crazy. This has nothing to do with justification 350 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 3: by faith. It really I don't even understand this stuff. 351 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 3: Why are we seeing almighty fortresses? Are God in my 352 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: community's Baptist church or in my you know whatever, because 353 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 3: this doesn't make any sense to me at all. Yeah, well, 354 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 3: the first one, when our Lord and Savior said repent, 355 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 3: he did not mean do penance. The first two, Yeah, 356 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 3: what's that about. Well, here's what that's about. There's a 357 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 3: text in Matthew and Luther cites the text the Latin 358 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 3: Vulgate says that Jesus said do penance. Yes, and so 359 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 3: the Roman church said, aha, that's the sacrament of penance. 360 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 3: Jesus said do penance. So when you sin, you must 361 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 3: go to the priest and do penance. Luther says, Wait 362 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 3: a minute, I get started reading this in Greek. 363 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, uh huh. 364 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 3: The words metinoia. That doesn't mean do penance, that means 365 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 3: turn around and go the other way. It means repent. 366 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 3: And so this is a clear Now we're into how 367 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: am I reading the Bible. I'm reading it in the original, 368 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,159 Speaker 3: and I can't get the Bible to say what the 369 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:22,199 Speaker 3: church says. It says right now, there's trouble in paradise. 370 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was remembering with the translation piece, 371 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: that there was some sort of kicker there. So it 372 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: wasn't related necessarily to his justification by faith piece, It 373 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: was related to this idea of penance, and then that 374 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,360 Speaker 1: is ultimately going to cascade. Even in the ninety five feces, 375 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: you kind of see a cascade into indulgences and purgatory 376 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: and all these other different practices that he's ultimately going 377 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: to disagree with on with the Catholic Church and then 378 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: kind of get himself into a lot of trouble with 379 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: the Catholic Church as he seeks to reform it. 380 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: Ultimately he gets booted out of it. 381 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: Yes, and this where does this come to a head? 382 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 3: Fifteen twenty Actually does before then. But this is the 383 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 3: big public blowout fifteen twenty, the diet of worms. And 384 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 3: here's the famous popes and councils have aired in the past. 385 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 3: Unless I'm convinced by scripture and plain reason, I cannot 386 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: and will not change my mind. So here's the deal, boys, 387 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 3: And he says this to the Emperor. I really don't 388 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: care that the pope or some council says that we 389 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 3: need to do penance, the sacrament of penance. That's not 390 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: what the Bible says. And my conscience is held captive 391 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 3: to the text. 392 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: Not the Pope or the council. 393 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 3: And when the Pope or the council says something that 394 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,640 Speaker 3: I can't get out of the Bible, I'm not bound 395 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 3: to believe it. That's where the rubber really hits the road. 396 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 3: That's where Luther is going to make the break. Unless 397 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 3: you show me from the Bible, I will not You 398 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 3: cannot force me to believe it, and you cannot force 399 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 3: me to practice it. That's where things get. It's just 400 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 3: going to go off the rails. 401 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's we'll end this episode here and then 402 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: next episode, let's talk a little bit about the ninety 403 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: five Feces will go through the diet of arms, and 404 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: then we'll talk a little bit about the way that 405 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 1: or the importance of, maybe the translation of the Bible 406 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: into German for Luther's overarching sort of new theology that 407 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: he discovers in this period, why that translation is so crucial. 408 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: So we'll address that in the next episode. So come 409 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: on back, everybody to the next episode of Thinking Christian 410 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: and we'll continue our conversation about the Reformation. I just 411 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at 412 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking 413 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll 414 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 415 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.