1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,280 Speaker 1: I remember feeling like I was in this tunnel and 2 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel. 3 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: But then I remembered, but God was with me in 4 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: the tunnel, walking alongside me. I couldn't see him, but 5 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: he was still there, and I had to rest on 6 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: those promises that he said he would never leave me 7 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: nor forsake me, that he was with me in my 8 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: broken places. 9 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Faith of a Fear podcast, where we 10 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: discussed powerful truths to quiet anxiety and fear big and small. 11 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 2: I'm Carol McCracken, and we all know that life can 12 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 2: change at any moment. One phone call or doctor's appointment, 13 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 2: or conversation or an addiction you never saw coming are 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 2: a knock on the door. Most of us can point 15 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,279 Speaker 2: to a moment before and after where life's split, and 16 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: in those moments, suffering doesn't just break our hearts. It 17 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: starts talking, and it whispers things about God and about 18 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: ourselves and about our future. And if we're not careful, 19 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 2: we start believing those lies. And today we're talking to 20 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: somebody who really knows had to recognize those lies and 21 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: can help us write their way back to the truth. 22 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: Jackie Thank you so much for being here. 23 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Carol. I've been looking forward 24 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: to this me too. 25 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: Would you tell our listeners take us back to a 26 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: day where you had your own before and after? 27 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: Yes, I sure will be. September nineteenth, twenty seventeen. That 28 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: was the day we got a literal knock on our 29 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: door in the early mornings of that day, and I 30 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: didn't hear what my daughter did. I remember her, She's like, Mom, Mom, 31 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: you got to wake up, wake up. There's police at 32 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: the door. And then I knew. I knew before I 33 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: got to the door that my son had died. And 34 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: so when I got to the door, they told me 35 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: there was an accident and that my son had fallen. 36 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: It was called Smith Rock and Bend, Oregon, and that 37 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: he had fallen. And then I just went and said 38 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: he didn't fall that he had done it on purpose. 39 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: He had died by suicide. And so that was the 40 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: day that our life. I mean, it was kind of 41 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: one of those things that we knew it might happen, 42 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: but we always had hope that it wouldn't happen. But yeah, 43 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: it was like we call it, you know, life before 44 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: and life after, and then it changed dramatically, of course, 45 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: because no, we no longer had our son, We no 46 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: longer had the dreams, the things that I had hoped 47 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: for him, for our family, and so we always talk 48 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: about that. Oh, well, before Sebastian died. Oh, and since 49 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: Sebastian died. And I think any mother that has lost 50 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: a child, no matter or war something, you know, you 51 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: always do that. Oh that was before that happened. And 52 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: that was before that happened. 53 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: Sure, I think one of the biggest surprises that suffering brings, 54 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: because you certainly suffered. I would imagine it's discovering how 55 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: little control that we have, isn't it. 56 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: Yes, Oh I have no control. 57 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's a humbling thing, very I'm sure, and 58 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: most of us don't think like we're trying to wake 59 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: up and play like we're God or anything like that. 60 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 2: But underneath our anxiety, I think that there's this that 61 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 2: if we can just do enough, or say enough, or 62 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: pray enough, the people we love are safe. And that 63 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: alone reminds us that we're not God. And that's frightening. 64 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 3: How did you with that? 65 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: Well, the Lord had been working on that. It seems 66 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: like my whole life and I was like the firstborn 67 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: child of a pair of alcoholics, so automatically I know 68 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: about control, you know, and if you have ever read 69 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: the Seminole book Codependent No More, we always learned good 70 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: old melody Baby, it's just like so she wrote my story, 71 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: She wrote all of those that suffered that way, that 72 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: I needed to be in control, that if I could 73 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: just control my environment, control what was happening, then everything 74 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: would be okay. But that's the lie. That's one of 75 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: those lies that we think. Because we can't control some 76 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: of the things outside of us, and even some of 77 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: the things inside of us, we have a hard enough 78 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: time controlling. So I had to learn to let that go, 79 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: and the Lord had to help me through that. It 80 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: is frightening not to be in control, Okay, it is. 81 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: They have a question, what assumptions did you have about 82 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: how life was supposed to be? I mean, you talked 83 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: about the plans that you had for your son. What 84 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: assumptions did you have that no longer were real? 85 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: Well, of course, I think you know, every mom has 86 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: dreams for their children. Right, They're all going to graduate 87 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: from high school, They're all going to be straight A students, 88 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: They're all going to get into the college of their 89 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: first choice. They're all going to marry the girl or 90 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: boy you picked out because we know best. Of course, 91 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: you know, they're all going to have those dreams. And 92 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: Sebastian was going on that trajectory. I had it all 93 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: planned out. And then middle school I noticed he was 94 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: like this champion chess player. When he was like nine 95 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: years old, he joined a chess club at our school 96 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: and we got invited to go to a national tournament 97 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: like for elementary school. Like, great, we'll go. Well, he 98 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: won every game in his division, and so he came 99 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: home with this like four foot trophy. He was nine 100 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: years old, and I was like, oh, my goodness, what 101 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: do I do with this? You know? And so he 102 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: became a little local chess celebrity. There was a couple 103 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: of boys. They were all just this great bunch of 104 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: boys and they just played chess all over the state 105 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: and all over the country. So I had dreams that 106 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: he was going to get the scholarship and played chess 107 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: in college and compete. And then eighth grade's like, yeah, 108 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: I'm done. So I was like, what if you're done. 109 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 2: That's life's really good. For a while, I rested in 110 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: that with my own son, so I can truly relate 111 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 2: to what you When did you begin to realize that 112 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: there were things you couldn't control about his trajectory. 113 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 1: It was in high school. He was still doing well 114 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: in school, but he was just skating. He didn't need 115 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: to study, which was really annoying. So you know, yeah, 116 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: it was a smart kid. And then he played soccer 117 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 1: and he was an MVP for being a cool keeper. 118 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: So he was doing all these things, you know, and 119 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: he didn't have to struggle. And I remember telling him once, 120 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: I said, you know, you have to learn how to 121 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: fail at things. I mean, because that's an important lesson. 122 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: Not everything is always going to be given for you 123 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: on a silver platter. And then I think when he 124 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: went to college that all of a sudden things changed 125 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: and he had to apply himself, and he didn't. He 126 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: went to a university in Idaho and was going to 127 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,679 Speaker 1: play E two soccer, got a scholarship to go there, 128 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: and then didn't hear from him much. But I didn't 129 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: hear from Sebastian much when he was I always figured 130 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: he was busy. And when he came home at Christmas, 131 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: he said, I'm not going back and he wouldn't tell 132 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: us why. I never knew why he never went back, 133 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: but he says, I'm done. I'm not going back. I 134 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: mean later on I found that's when he was struggling 135 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: with depression, more anxiety. He was using drugs. I've been 136 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: smoking pot and other things. He had gotten himself self 137 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: diagnosed with ADHD gotcha, and was over using his stimulant medication. 138 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: And so those are choices he made, and I couldn't 139 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: control those things because now he's eighteen. And also it's 140 00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: really hard because my husband and I are both health 141 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: care providers, so we watched this happening, trying to give 142 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: advice and telling him, but even we knew it was like, oh, 143 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: this is not good. And so I still tried to 144 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: control things. When he came back home and I'm like, well, 145 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: you got to get a job. Just wanted to stay 146 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: in his room and I'm like, you got to work. Well, 147 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: he didn't like the job he was getting. I'm like, well, 148 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: if you don't have an education, you're going to have 149 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: jobs like this. But people work hard at these jobs, 150 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: and you need to learn to work hard at these jobs. 151 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: As a mom, you're always trying to encourage and then 152 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: my husband and I were struggling about what to do 153 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: with our son as well, and we ended up going 154 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: to therapy. We needed couples counseling because there's this thing 155 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: called triangulation, and there's always a week link and it 156 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: was me. I was Week. I think his moms we 157 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: just we hope, I think the longest. We want the 158 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: best for our children, and we think we just love 159 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: them enough or do something that it's going to work out. 160 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: And there was the day I noticed I was overdrawn 161 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: in my checking account, and I've never overdrawn, and I saw, 162 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: I saw a pattern, and I confronted my son and 163 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: what he said was, well, maybe you better change your password. Oh, 164 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: and that's all he said to me. And I just went, oh, 165 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: this is not my boy anymore. I don't know him. 166 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: And socept he had to leave the home. He went 167 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: a couple of places and people took him in and 168 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: tried and loved him, and he abused every place he 169 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: went to and ended up finally getting arrested for his 170 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: poor choices and was facing jail time or rehab. I said, yeah, 171 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: rehab looks a lot better than jail, and so he 172 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: did rehab and that's where he had his first suicide attempt. 173 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: He walked out of the rehab and tried to hang himself. 174 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: He was missing for twenty four hours and then we 175 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: found him. By then he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, 176 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: and we kind of knew this was happening, but again 177 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: you're always like, is it really or is it just? 178 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: And then so he got the formal diagnosis and was 179 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: put on antipsychotics that just really were not helpful. It's 180 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: hard to find the right medication. And then we moved 181 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: him closer to us, and then five months later he 182 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: was successful. He was another rehab and then he got 183 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: kicked out of there because he wouldn't follow the rules, 184 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: and then that night he ended his life. That's a 185 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: little condensed version of what happened over a course of 186 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: like five years or so. 187 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: But yeah, I can relate with my son. And it's 188 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: a scary thing to lose control like that, and really 189 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: hard to lose control, like if somebody's walking through an addiction, 190 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 2: or they're watching a marriage unravel, or they're taking care 191 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 2: of a parent with dementia, or even help like you're 192 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: facing a diagnosis that you never wanted, and at some 193 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: point we finally discover our limits, don't we. Yeah, and 194 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 2: that's kind of a weird place to be. What did 195 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 2: surrender look like for you? Because I sensed it in 196 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: your story you were talking about he made adult choices, 197 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 2: he had to leave the home. But you, you're the 198 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: one with the hope, the hope, the hope. When did 199 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: you surrender? 200 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: In there? Surrender is a good point. It was interesting 201 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: because when my son was like fourteen years old, Okay, 202 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: I was walking on the beach and I remember I 203 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: was by myself, and I distinctly heard the Lord say 204 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: to me, are you willing to lay Sebastian on the altar? 205 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: Ooh yeah? And just you know, I mean there was 206 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: nobody around, and I was just like, what does that mean? 207 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: I remember when God asked Abraham to lay Isaac on 208 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: the altar and I said, well, what if you don't 209 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: give him back? And that's what I said to God 210 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: and all God says, you have to trust me, And 211 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: that was it. And so soon after Sebastian died, I 212 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: remembered that conversation I had with the Lord and I 213 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: realized it wasn't about Sebastian at all, was it? It 214 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: was about me? It was me trusting God whatever happened, 215 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 1: that he would walk through me and he was going 216 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,200 Speaker 1: to refine me and make me more like him. But 217 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: I had, ultimately we trust him for whatever was going 218 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: to happen, and I had no control over this, and 219 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,440 Speaker 1: I had to submit to him, and so that it 220 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: became a parent I mean, that's when it was like 221 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: this aha, light bulb moment in the midst of my grief, 222 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: in the midst of this horrible thing that happened to me. 223 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: That's when I'm like, I have to let go and surrender. 224 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: This because that's hard as a mom, because you know love, 225 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 2: Love is not control, and responsibility is not ownership. We've 226 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: got the responsibility for these children or this condition or 227 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: this parent or something like that. We think faith is 228 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 2: realizing we can't control every outcome, right. 229 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it is because we can't. We try to. 230 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: Of course, we all try to, because if we just 231 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: do it this way, we try it this way, and 232 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,560 Speaker 1: then we try to set our own limits, our own 233 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: and we can't do it. It's just we're not able 234 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:57,679 Speaker 1: to keep it well. We because we're broken human beings 235 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: that don't have it all together. Because none of us 236 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: have it all together. 237 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 2: Isn't that for sure? I learned that hard way myself. 238 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: So I gave that you suffered you refer, didn't you? 239 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 2: And I think that suffering is common to all of us. 240 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 2: I think that is something you had a certain situation. 241 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 2: I think we can find suffering in so many different ways. 242 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: And no matter what it does, doesn't it start kind 243 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: of writing like a story and we really don't even 244 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: realize it's happening. I mean, you wrote a book about it. Okay, 245 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 2: there's a real story right there. Maybe it's a proverbial story, 246 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 2: and then we would just wake up one day to 247 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: things that we never used to believe. Your book, Speaking 248 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: of Stories, talks about lies the grieving mothers believe, and 249 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 2: as I read those, I just kept thinking, these aren't 250 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: just for grieving mothers. I don't think you wrote a 251 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 2: universal experience. Quite frankly, Yeah, what are some of those 252 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: lies you outlined? 253 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: I had like four major ones. The first lie I 254 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,119 Speaker 1: talked about is I wasn't good enough. You blame ourselves 255 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: that I wasn't a good enough mother and it must 256 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: have been my fault that my child did dot dat 257 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: or whatever. So and we all bring that lie to 258 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: us don't we Because we all come from different childhood upbringings, 259 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,559 Speaker 1: our parents taught us things that weren't always the truth 260 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: as well, and so we bring this generational parenting style 261 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: sometimes to our family and then until we know that, oh, 262 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: you mean, it's not always like that. I remember that 263 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: was one of my first therapy sessions, telling my family 264 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: of origin, and I remember my you mean, families don't 265 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: normally do that because you and you realize she's like no, 266 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I didn't know, because that's what you know, right, 267 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: you know, you only know what you know. And then 268 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: it's just like, oh, you learn, like, oh there is 269 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: other ways of doing it. But then as moms, going 270 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: back to that, we always blame ourselves. We blame ourselves 271 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: if our child failed on a test, or if they 272 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: if they got in a fight, obviously I must have 273 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: done something. But the truth is we can't control our kids. 274 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: When my son was like, he's like eighteen months old, 275 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: and he was I had heard this noise and he 276 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 1: had taken a brick and it was a green brick 277 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: and he was rubbing it on the wall and making 278 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: a green mark. And I was like, some action, don't 279 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: do that, and he looked at me, looked at the brick, 280 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: and then proceeded to do it again. And I was like, 281 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: you are a little sinner, you know. And then I 282 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: remember God telling me, now you know how I feel 283 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: when you grieve my heart, when I was like, oh, 284 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: it's amazing. What children really humble you, don't they indeed? Yeah, 285 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: So we couldn't do it. And the second lie I 286 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: think universe is no one knows what I'm going through. 287 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: Nobody understands that. And I say in the book, at 288 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: the last statistics that forty nine thousand people died in 289 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: the United States alone by suicide, and I'm like, You're 290 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: not alone. So you know there were forty nine thousand 291 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: mothers and fathers and aunts and uncles and sisters and grandparents, 292 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: So you're not alone in this. And so we have 293 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: to realize, oh no, I'm not alone. There is help 294 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: and we can find it. Another lie that my life 295 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: will never be the same. It's kind of like there 296 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: is a truism in it. But the lie is I 297 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: can't go on. I'll never be the same way I 298 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: was because of what happened to me. I always remember 299 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: is Queen Victoria. If you remember Queen Victoria was Queen 300 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: of England in the nineteen hundred. She died in nineteen 301 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: oh one, so the Victorian era is named after her. 302 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: And she lost her husband early in her marriage of Typhois. 303 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 1: Maybe they were married twenty years and she was on 304 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: the throne sixty one years, so she was a widow 305 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: for forty years, and she wore black the entire time, 306 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: and her husband's room could never be changed for forty years, 307 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: and so she lived in this system that I will 308 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: I'll never be the same. It was just so sad 309 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: to think she lived her life that way for forty 310 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: years after her husband died. But I was just reminded 311 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: me of that. And then the other lie would be 312 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: I could have prevented this, I could have stopped it. 313 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: I had a friend once who talked to me her 314 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: son had died in a tragic accident, and she said 315 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: to me, it is my fault. And I was like, 316 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: why was it your fast? She goes, I didn't tell 317 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: Dora's helmet, And of course in her grief she was 318 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: thinking this through. And he was my son's age. She 319 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: was like twenty eight years old, and I go, well, 320 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: when he was younger, did you tell Hi Dora's helmet. 321 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: She's like, yeah, she's all right. So you you trained 322 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: him up. But he made a choice, and we all 323 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: make choices that were stupid or that had unfortunately consequences 324 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: that ended with a lie. And the other thing I 325 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: had to learn early on is I'm not God. I 326 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: cannot control that. I'm not omnipresent, I'm not omnisciocentent. Yeah, 327 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not all knowing, right, I can't know 328 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: the mind of God. Yes, God knows that. 329 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: It's hard though, when you're trying to control in any 330 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 2: circumstance like that, because you can kind of you're like, 331 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 2: I see this coming. I know this bad thing is 332 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 2: going to happen. I can prevent this. Keep returning to this. 333 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: They made a choice, and at some point in time 334 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 2: our children do make choices. 335 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, that shows up. 336 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 2: I think with all kinds of suffering. Why do you 337 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: think Chane's that's such a powerful voice to hear those lies? 338 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it makes them feel I think a lot 339 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: of times and people self medicate because it numbs, it covers, 340 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: it doesn't help with staci reality. Sometimes a lot of 341 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 1: times we self medicate or over exercise or overeat or 342 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: avoid relationships. We all do things that keep us from 343 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: feeling and dealing with the truth or the facts that 344 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 1: sometimes it's easier to avoid them, but we can't avoid 345 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: them because as long as we live on this earth, 346 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: as we were talking about, we're gonna have suffering. We're 347 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: gonna have pain, people are wan to die, natural disasters 348 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: are going to occur, We're going to lose electricity. We 349 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 1: live in a broken world that until the day the 350 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: work comes back, when there's a new heaven and Earth, 351 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: it's going to be like that. And so we shouldn't 352 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: be surprised at bad things happened to us. Tim Keller 353 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: wrote a great book on Walking with God in Pain 354 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: and Suffering, best book ever besides my own. No No, no, No, 355 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: but no. I quote them a lot, and I quote 356 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: them a lot because I that was like my Amazon 357 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: speed dial. So I just gave that to everybody. Yeah, 358 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: because he's like, why are we surprised? We always seem 359 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: so surprised when bad things happen or something awful it's 360 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: going to happen, So we need to rejoice in the 361 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:41,880 Speaker 1: good things that did. That's good. 362 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: One thing that I noticed when you were talking is 363 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: that we don't just grieve people. We do grieve people, 364 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 2: but there's more kind of grieve failures, don't we Yeah, 365 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: talking about that a little bit earlier in the broadcast. 366 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: We grieve failures, even expectations. We were talking about that 367 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,680 Speaker 2: wife that you had decided the chess champion would live. 368 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 2: And I know that I grieved with my son the 369 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: kind of life that we would be living did not 370 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: happen that way. And sometimes it felt like we discussed 371 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 2: and sometimes retirement's not what it turned. 372 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: Out to be. 373 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So why do we grieve failures if we 374 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 2: shouldn't be surprised that they're going to happen? 375 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: That goes back to I should have known better, right, 376 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: I could have control it. I hope it just goes 377 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: back to that. Yeah, circle, isn't it. It can loop us. 378 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: That's why I think Queen Victoria agreed for for it. 379 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: You know, she just kept this loop and couldn't move forward. 380 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,679 Speaker 1: And I've seen other grieving moms do that as well. 381 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: They just they're afraid to move on because what's the 382 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: worst thing that happens. They're already gone, but they're afraid 383 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: that no one will remember. And then and I mean, 384 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: it seems so irrational, but it's so it's such a 385 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: hard thing to No one's going to remember my boy 386 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: except for me. When I would go to the cemetery 387 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: and visit, I'm like, well, you know, there's so many 388 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 1: people here and nobody remembers who those people are, and 389 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: so that is evidently that's what's going to happen, right, 390 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: none of us. But God knows every single person. That's it. 391 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: So I always say we can still move forward and 392 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: not forget. And other people will forget and that's just 393 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: part of life. But God never forgets. He knows us. 394 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: He knows the day we were created, he knows the 395 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: day we died. He knows everything that happens to us. 396 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: And we don't understand why He allows these things to 397 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: happen to us. All of it is just to bring 398 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: us closer to him, isn't it. I always say, in 399 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: this day, in my age, it's fine tuning me to 400 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: be more like you. 401 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 2: You know, it's a funny thing because I've often said 402 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: that I think everybody just needs a bad thing to 403 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 2: happen to them. That doesn't mean, but what a bad 404 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 2: thing will do in you were suffering? Sometimes what it 405 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: does is it brings you close to the Lord because 406 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 2: when we have everything going our way, don't. 407 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: We feel it's self sufficient. We don't need God, right, Yeah, 408 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: we don't need anybody but ourselves. Right. 409 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 410 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: My story is somewhat similar to yours, and that I 411 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 2: had a child with mental health issues. But I'm the 412 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 2: one that's self medicated. Oh. I've been sober for fifteen 413 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 2: years now, so it's amen. Amen. But in that period 414 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: of time, some of the hardest times in my life 415 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 2: when he was making these decisions like your son did, 416 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 2: and it's kind of like I just I'm tired of feeling. 417 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: I just didn't want to feel anymore. But I didn't 418 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: realize that alcoholism is prevalent my faith mine. 419 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: Right yeah, behavior, Yeah, so there you go. 420 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: But it can happen to you, and it did. But 421 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 2: all of that to say is I suffered, and I suffered. 422 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 2: But do you know what that did. It brought me 423 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: close I've ever been to the Lord because I go 424 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 2: to the bottom and I realized the Lord was the only. 425 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: Thing I had left. Amen. Oh, yes, yeah, that's what 426 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: I always tell people. We were told early in the 427 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: loss of our son, some well meaning person said divorce 428 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: is really high for those that have died by suicide, 429 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 1: and she quoted this eighty ninety percent thing, and first 430 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: I was thinking, why are you saying that that is not? 431 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: It is not, you know, And then I was determined 432 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: because that's the way I'm stubborn, and it's like, I'm 433 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: not going to let that happen to us. And we 434 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 1: were always very intentional in our marriage and raising our kids, 435 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 1: and now we were faced with this, and then we 436 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: were like, no, we're this is going to draw us 437 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: closer to the Lord. And it did. It has. Oh 438 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: my gosh. We would say that we were never closer 439 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: to the Lord during that time of grief with our 440 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,400 Speaker 1: son because we had nowhere else to go but to him. Right, 441 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: we knew that we needed to be together in the Lord, 442 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: and of course with our own relationship with the Lord, 443 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: but to be together. And even the statistics show that 444 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: something traumatic happening in a family can be a protective 445 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 1: fact because you have a shared grief system, you have 446 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: a shared trauma, and that can actually be protective, not 447 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: just distancing and destroying it. Now, if there was trouble 448 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: in the marriage before, of course, that's gonna pile on. 449 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: But if you you've been grounded, and we talk about 450 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: building the house on the solid ground and then the 451 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: storms of life come and it but and you're still standing. 452 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you didn't lose the roof or some 453 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 1: windows blown up, but you're still standing. And that's what 454 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: we said. We're like, we are still standing. We have 455 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: the scars to show, but it's ever so much better. 456 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: It's different. Yeah, Oh, life is so much better because 457 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: though I still keep trying to rest control from him. 458 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: To help out, oh yes, always. Yeah, I know it's 459 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: our nature, but. 460 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: It gets you back on the right path. And I'm 461 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: closer and hopefully I get back on the path a 462 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 2: little sooner than I used to. 463 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I keep hoping so early in my therapy days, 464 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: they talk about this spiral. It's a coil and if 465 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: you're in the right direction, and you'll have a hiccup 466 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: and you'll go back. Yeah, but you're always going forward. 467 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: It's not always back to you, but every is just 468 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: you keep going forward and then you go back, and 469 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: then then you go forward. But you're always going forward. 470 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: Eivether there's little hiccups, you still going forward. That's such 471 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: a great visual for me is okay. Good forward, I'm 472 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,239 Speaker 1: I messed up today, Laura, But nope, but I'm going forward. Right. 473 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: It's not all or nothing, is it's And that's a 474 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: good thing to picture that way because life is just 475 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: plain and simply. 476 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 2: Life is hard sometimes it is, Yes, it just is. 477 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 2: Like you said, it's a broken world, all right? So 478 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: how did God help you release some of that? 479 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: Like? How did he help you release. 480 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: What might have been? 481 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: Well? God was just so gracious to me that early 482 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: grief after losing Sebastian. I just realized very quickly that 483 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: I even though I didn't want to read my Bible, 484 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: I didn't want to go to church, I didn't want 485 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: to do all those things because you just don't. You 486 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: just you're just survived that I knew it was like 487 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: you fake it till you make it right. I just 488 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: did it. I just one step in front of another. 489 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: And so I kept exercising every day. Instead. I would 490 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: love read my Bible all the time, but instead I 491 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: listened to my Bible. I couldn't open up a Bible, 492 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: but I could put headphones on and walk the neighborhood 493 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: with my dog because my dog still needed to be walked. 494 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 1: And then I listened to the Bible in a year now, 495 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: it will nine years in a row now, but for 496 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: seven years, that's a lot. That's what I did, and 497 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: just all the way through. And then I had people 498 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 1: praying for me all the time, praying with me and 499 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: just letting me cry, because in my stubbornness, I'm very 500 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: I don't need people, but I do. You do need people, 501 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: You need people praying for you, you do need a 502 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: support system. Early on, my husband said to learn to 503 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: use my yes muscle, which meant when someone asked me, 504 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: can I do this, you say yes, because we don't 505 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: want to bother people, right even in our grief. Oh, 506 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: I don't want to bother people that they're asking. And 507 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: Steve said, my husband, like, just say yes. So I 508 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: learned to say yes a lot, and that was hard 509 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: because like, I could do this, I could do this. 510 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: That helps so much. I continued to keep my habits 511 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: that I had been doing because you just you know, 512 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: I just had to keep that routine and that was 513 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: earning sometimes. Yeah, And we continued our date night. We 514 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: always had a date night. We still do, and so 515 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: for my husband, we had to have a date night 516 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: every night, you know, every Friday night it was our 517 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: date night, and always checking in and seeing how we 518 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: were doing. But those things were very very helpful as well. Yeah. 519 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: Great, So kind of have a big question. God created 520 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: us and we're supposed to have our identity in him, 521 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: but sometimes, as our moms, we have our identity and 522 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 2: our children, or if we work, we might have our 523 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 2: identity and a job or something like that. When did 524 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: you start beginning to realize that your son's story wasn't 525 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 2: your identity? 526 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: I talk about this and about you know, our identity 527 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: and a chapter of my book because I realized I 528 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: am a nurse. And then when my husband and I 529 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: got married and I became a wife, that was my identity. 530 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 1: And then when we had children, then really felt the 531 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: Lord calling me home to be just a mom. I'm 532 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: not just a mom, but you know, but people told 533 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: me I was just a mom, and so now my 534 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: identity was a mom. And I remember someone telling me, 535 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: what wasn't a waste of your education? And I said, 536 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: are you telling me my children are a waste? And 537 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: so then your children become your identity. So when my 538 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: son dies, there goes He just ruined my whole life. 539 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: Right at that time, and my husband it was I'm 540 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 1: a little divert here because he really struggled with that. 541 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: He thought his whole witness had been ruined at work, 542 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: and he thought, no one's going to talk to him now, 543 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: because if I can't control my own children, there we go, 544 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: how am I going to be a witness? And he 545 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: found that more people came and started sharing their stories 546 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: with him, because all of a sudden, he was real 547 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: he was more. He's like, well, they got me, and 548 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: so that was a really a key moment. But for 549 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 1: me also then I realized So then my daughter got 550 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: married six months after her brother died, right, and so 551 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: all of a sudden I empty nested, like so fascinated, 552 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: and it was devastating. The combination of I said, I 553 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: had just lost both my children. Who am I now? 554 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: It was huge And that's when it started changing, like, oh, 555 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: this is just a part of who I am. It's 556 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: not who I am. But it took a long time 557 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: for me to acknowledge and to recognize that I am 558 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: more than what my children did or do or who 559 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: are they married or whatever, And so I would say 560 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: it's about that time, and that's when I started writing 561 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: about this because I was just like, oh my gosh, 562 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: this isn't who I am. I don't want to be 563 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: defined by my son's actions. It's funny because if he 564 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: had done all these good things, I probably would have 565 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: loved to have been defined by looking at my son 566 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: he's president of the United States or whatever. But even that, 567 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: it's so easy just to creep in. It's like, no, 568 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm not defined by what my kids do, you know. 569 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm defined by my relationship with the Lord and who 570 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: he is and who I am and him and how 571 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 1: Christ sees me, when he sees me as pure and 572 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: holly and true and forgiven. It's not based on what 573 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: I did or what my children did, and it's not 574 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: based on nothing except for his love for me, and 575 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: that across from me. 576 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 2: You discovered that and you did it well sitting in 577 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: front of you. How can our listeners recognize when they 578 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 2: quietly begun living somebody else's life instead of their own? 579 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,000 Speaker 1: And that is I think it creeps in so subtly 580 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: that you don't recognize it until you're there, And so 581 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 1: it just it was something that I noticed. It was 582 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: almost anecdotally. I belonged to a few Facebook groups for 583 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: moms that have lost their children and to suicide and 584 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: other deaths because it just when it messes with the 585 00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: birth order, right, because a child is never supposed to 586 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: die before you and well I don't know who says that, 587 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, that's a lie. That's 588 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: another lie there. You know, back in the day, we 589 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: forget that before immunizations and before children died all the time, right, 590 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: and that the fact that they survived was normal. It 591 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: was abnormal. Children dies, yes, And so there is hope, 592 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: there is there is a life after this. We can 593 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: move on. I don't know. People don't like that. R 594 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: We don't move on, you know, we move forward. It 595 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: just looks different. Life looks different now, but it doesn't 596 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: have to be the end of who we are as people. 597 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: I had to struggle with that, but I think you 598 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: had to come to a place eventually, either with therapy, 599 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: with help, with being gentlely prodded to move forward, that 600 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: it's okay to take those steps of faith. I would say, 601 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: what's the worst thing that's going to happen? They're still dead, 602 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: that's true, you know. 603 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 2: Sometimes to your point with that, I think sometimes hope 604 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: assumes that you're going to get what you want, yes, 605 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 2: and life doesn't always give us that as as you've 606 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: pointed out, So what does hope become when the ending 607 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 2: doesn't change? 608 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: It used to be hope was based on I always 609 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: hoped my child would survive mental illness. That was my hope. 610 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: That was kind of like this, but it was very 611 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: temporal because it didn't turn out the way I had 612 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: planned it. And so to me, hope looks like even 613 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: in the midst of suffering, that there is still goodness 614 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: out there, that we can still move forward, that God 615 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 1: is still good in the midst of all that. For me, 616 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: hope is not a feeling. It's a reality of knowing 617 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: that there is someone out there, a higher power, God 618 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: who despite my suffering, is still going to be with 619 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: me and still watches over me, and is still walking 620 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: through with me in the journey, and so behind yeah, yeah, 621 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: we're not left in a dark place, even though it 622 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: feels like it's dark. And I remember feeling like I 623 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: was in this tunnel and I couldn't see the light 624 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel. But then I remembered, 625 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: but God was with me in the tunnel, walking alongside me. 626 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: I couldn't see him but he was still there and 627 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: I had to rest on those promises. Is that he 628 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: said he would never leave me nor forsake me, that 629 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: he was with me in my broken places. And so 630 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: being reminded and clinging to those verses and to the 631 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: scriptures that I knew to be true, and not to 632 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: let the lies of the world to seep in, but 633 00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: always to go back to what do I know is true? 634 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: What do I know as holy? What do I know 635 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: is pure? And to think on those things and even 636 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: if it meant it. 637 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: Was true, but to do it. 638 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 639 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 2: Right. I have three questions for you. Okay, what is 640 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 2: one thing you wish every hurting person knew. 641 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: Oh, that's an easy one. That they're not alone in 642 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: their grief, that they are not alone, that there is hope, 643 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: that don't have to do this alone. 644 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: Even if they feel that way. 645 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: Even if they feel that way, they're not alone. And 646 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: help them to find resources that they so that they 647 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 1: would know that they're not alone. 648 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 3: That's good. 649 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 2: You kept talking about moving forward even with pradding sometimes, 650 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: what is the one thing, one practice anyway that you 651 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: did that helped you move forward so that you did 652 00:32:59,240 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 2: things differently? 653 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: I would say that would go back to reading my 654 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: Bible every day, listening to it, and because a lot 655 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: of times I didn't do to be honest, I didn't 656 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: hear it because but it was just there and I 657 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: just was I was just hoping and praying, and I 658 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: knew that the Holy Spirit was just going to keep 659 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: bathing me with his words even though I couldn't feel it. 660 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: And so that I was like, even if I couldn't 661 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: hear it, if I wasn't there, I just knew that 662 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,760 Speaker 1: I was having those His word was going in my mind. 663 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: And give you heard that turn about garbage in, garbage out, 664 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: whatever you put in. So that's what I was claiming. 665 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: And so that even though I couldn't sometimes hear it 666 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: or understand it or even acknowledge it was there, I 667 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: just knew it was going in there in my brain. Yeah. 668 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: Cool, all right, here's the last one? Okay, ready, Yes, 669 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 2: what's one outcome that you want our listeners to walk 670 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: away with today? 671 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: Again, I would go back that even in that dark place, 672 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: that they believed that, and I know they're in a 673 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: dark place, that they're not alone in that dark place, 674 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 1: even though they feel like they can't see any light, 675 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: they can't think that anybody's going to understand what they're 676 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: going through, that there is a God who loves them 677 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: and can help them, and that clinging to those words 678 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: that I was talking about and clinging to them is 679 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 1: going to it's going to help them walk away and 680 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: help them be stronger in a way they never anticipated 681 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: they were going to be able to be. And the 682 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 1: only way we can get our strength is in our weakness, 683 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: because we can't be strong without being weak, right because 684 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: and that strength comes from outside of us. It's not 685 00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 1: something we can do on our own, but only through Jesus. 686 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 2: That's right now, lean in, that's great, Thank you, Thank you, Jackie. 687 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: Every listener's got a different story. And I think this 688 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: is going to resonate with so many people because some 689 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: people are greeting things that they've lost, and maybe it 690 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 2: is that child, or that career, or caring for aging parents, 691 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 2: or even a marriage relationship. Thanks for listening, listeners. If 692 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 2: you haven't already done so, I encourage you to subscribe 693 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: to this podcast so that you want miss a single episode, 694 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 2: Share it with your friends, and until next time, may 695 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 2: you live as one who has been really set free.