1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: He called to make a difference in mental health. 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Columbia International University offers graduate counseling degrees that combine professional 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: excellence with Biblical truth from associates. Through doctoral program, CiU 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: prepares you to bring healing and wholeness to others through 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: a biblically based framework of compassion and care. Whether it's 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: their k CREP accredited Masters in Clinical Counseling or their 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, You'll learn from experience 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: faculty who integrate faith with real world application to cultivate 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, and train. 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, CiU's 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally and spiritually. 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: Visit CiU dot edu. 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: To learn more about making a difference in mental health 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: through christ centered education. 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 2: That's CiU dot edu. 24 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian of 25 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: doctor James Spencer, and I'm joined by doctor Ben Matthew. 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: He is a. 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: Professor of counselor education at Columbia International University, and today 28 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: we're going to be talking a little bit about the 29 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: limits of therapy in a collapsed culture. And so, Ben, 30 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: you work with a lot of people in a therapeutic setting. 31 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: You're still not only training future counselors, but you are 32 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: yourself a counselor. And so I guess I'm just wondering. 33 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: You know, Well, let me frame it like this. I 34 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: talked to actually a couple of other people from CiU, 35 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: a couple of your colleagues, and one of the things 36 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: they noted was that often they feel like a paid friend. 37 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: I think, actually, I've had this conversation too. It's like 38 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: they're not really dealing with these sort of upper tier 39 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: psychological challenges. 40 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: What you're dealing with is more. 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: If I can make the analogy like people keep coming 42 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: in with the sniffles, and what you're really equipped to 43 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: do is deal with you know, the flu or you 44 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: know some other you know, upper tier problem. I assume 45 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: you experienced that as well, And I'm wondering what do 46 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: you think that says about the limits of therapy, the 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: limits of counseling within today's world. 48 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, now I appreciate that. Uh. For the record, I 49 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 3: think for a second year you were about to announce 50 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 3: me as the professor of counsel education. Hey, I'll take 51 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: it if I need, with all due love and respect 52 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 3: to my colleagues here. So yeah, you know, it's a 53 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 3: really interesting, uh reality that I engage with sometimes with 54 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 3: my clients. This is the phrase that sometimes I'll hear Ben. 55 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 3: You know, honestly, if we weren't doing counseling, I would 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 3: love to just hang out with you and you have coffee. Okay, 57 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 3: So aside from the ethical parameters that need to be 58 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 3: implicated into that and the encouragement, like, honestly like the 59 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 3: fact that nice it is nice that there's a resonance, 60 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: there's a certain connection that we feel that Yeah, I 61 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: totally could hang with you and just enjoy your company. Yeah, 62 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 3: So there's encouragement on one hand, but at the other hand, 63 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, but dude, you're spending a lot of 64 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 3: time and money for this, Like this is If this 65 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: is what you're wanting someone to hang out and have coffee, 66 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: there are a lot better ways and places and resources 67 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 3: to evilizes to get that right now. Again, I don't 68 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: usually get into that with my clients. I don't unless 69 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 3: it's something that we kind of go towards. But there 70 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 3: is this growing, if I can call it, this non 71 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: concern in the back of my mind that sometimes clients 72 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 3: are just coming in just because they don't have really 73 00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: anyone else to talk to about life and struggles, and 74 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 3: I want to be there. That's I love. I feel 75 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: so blessed to be able to enter into that space. 76 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 3: But to the whole point of what this whole series 77 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: that you and I have been talking about, there are 78 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 3: these larger structural issues that it brings to mind that 79 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 3: we've now collapsed, meaning making societal engagement down to therapeutic 80 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 3: point within an office with one individual, that where I 81 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 3: should be finding all these things, where I should be 82 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 3: engaging in community to find larger response to life's crises. 83 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 3: Is now being done within a model of mental health 84 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 3: that I'm both thankful for that were are at least 85 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 3: someone they can talk to, But to be honest, deeply 86 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 3: concerned about that we're in a lot of ways the 87 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 3: only one that people can talk to. There's something about 88 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 3: that that that again, I think it's been a recent shift. 89 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 3: There has been a destigmatizing of mental health within the 90 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 3: past so many years. There's a certain health to that. 91 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 3: I'm thankful for that. I think it helps more people 92 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 3: engage with the process. The unintended consequence to some degree 93 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,799 Speaker 3: is that because it's a little more destigmatized, people think, 94 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 3: not only can I but that's kind of the only 95 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: way I can get the help I need. It's the 96 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 3: second part that concerns me. It's the belief that it's 97 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 3: only in mental health spaces I can get the help 98 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: that I need to find meaning to combat loneliness, to 99 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 3: find a friend that I can have coffee with. I'm like, oh, 100 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,160 Speaker 3: that says something more about our society, not just the 101 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 3: individual across from me. 102 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: So I got a little bit of a curve ball 103 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: based on what you just said. So in the spirit 104 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: of throwing your curve balls and just seeing if I 105 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: can bait you into saying something crazy. No, you know, 106 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: I look out at the landscape and I see counseling, 107 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,039 Speaker 1: and I've I've only ever gone to counseling. And let 108 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: me maybe give you an analogy. Right, my daughter, Let's 109 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: say she got injured, not very seriously doing gymnastics, and 110 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: so one of the recommendations was to send her to 111 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: a chiropractor. And I'm thinking to myself, well, why would 112 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: I send her a chiropractor when I could send her 113 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: to a physical therapist, you know, like. 114 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 2: Like that's that within the medical field. 115 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: And that range like they've got you know, everything from 116 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: you know, an acupuncturist to maybe a massage therapist, right 117 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: who do manipulations on the body. 118 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: And you know those kind of things. 119 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 1: And you've got sort of the chiropractice is sort of 120 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: in the middle, right, and then you've got physical therapists, right, 121 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: and you can almost use them, I hate to say it, 122 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: almost interchangeably on some level. 123 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: And so as I think about. 124 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: Counseling, one of the things that I found interesting. I 125 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: was just at a conference here like two days ago, 126 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: and they were talking, you know, biblical counseling, which is 127 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: really just an exhirtation from the Word of God, and 128 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: people are trained to do this somehow. I don't really 129 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: know a ton about it, but it's not integrated Psychologically's 130 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: put it that way. You've got spiritual directors who are 131 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: kind of popping up, and that's getting more and more popular. Coaching, right, 132 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: these sort of quasi unregulated slash completely unregulated professions that 133 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,680 Speaker 1: are now what I would say, maybe in the mix 134 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: with this same layer of people you're dealing with in 135 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,360 Speaker 1: this sort of friend based counseling mode. I don't know 136 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: if I've described that well, but a good point. And 137 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: so what I guess I'm. 138 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: Wondering is part of it is it's great I think 139 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: that you have spiritual. 140 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: Directors and coaches and all these other different kind of 141 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: people who are now available to also be paid friends. 142 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 2: It kind of takes the pressure off of therapy. 143 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: But it's also part of the problem, isn't it. 144 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: Oh, this is my shooting myself at the foot by 145 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: admitting this. I don't know, because this is part of 146 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 3: the dilemma I feel, because I have this doctrine of 147 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: stewardship that informs a lot of what I do, not 148 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 3: just clinically as a professional counselor as a professor, as 149 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 3: just a human, we are called to give an account 150 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: for the time and resources God gives us, and we 151 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 3: will be held account to the Great Judge one day. 152 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 3: Part of that that implicates itself into then when I 153 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 3: sit across from someone and they respond that way, we 154 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: make a connection. It's helping them, It's it's helping them 155 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 3: regulate symptoms and develop coping strategies. Like these are all 156 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: good things that therapy does, but it doesn't have to 157 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 3: be just through me. And then I sit there, I'm like, 158 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: am I being the best steward of this time these resources? 159 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 3: I don't know if I am. And in ways that 160 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 3: it implicates this other issue that is so lacking, and 161 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 3: that to me is where I keep on coming back here. Yeah, 162 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 3: it's not just that the problem is that we are 163 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 3: available life coaches, you know, therapists or different different levels 164 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 3: of social workers. I think there is a place and 165 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 3: time for those realities, and I think that's what we 166 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 3: do well. Right, I'll speak specifically to my construct of 167 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: professional counseling. We can provide some helping coping, right, We 168 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: can provide some response, particularly in trauma informed contexts. Right, 169 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 3: there are some good behavioral and relational things that we 170 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: can bring to bear that helps the individual kind of 171 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: cope in extraordinary situations. So obviously I'm not diminishing that 172 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 3: as a viable and good perspective to be utilized in 173 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: caring for people. But I'm getting the sneaking suspicion that 174 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 3: more and more of what's happen thing in mental health 175 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 3: is more of a friend zone of sorts that because 176 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: it's highlighting what's lost, what's being lost in what should 177 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: be a normative part of human life, that is community connection, 178 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 3: shared meaning working together in both relational and physical spaces 179 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: at times. I mean part of the growth of digital therapy. 180 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: I mean, that's another whole area we can get into, 181 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 3: is digital therapy and what that looks like. And again, 182 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: I'm maybe continuing to shoot myself in the other foot 183 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 3: at that point. But there's this gnawing concern that I 184 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 3: have that are we just kind of adding to the 185 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 3: problem just because we can. I don't necessarily know it 186 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 3: means if we should, if it's continuing to create more 187 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: of a problem in the larger constructs that are missing 188 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 3: out for human engagement. 189 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I guess what comes up to me. This 190 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: is a little bit plain Devil's advocate maybe, But it's 191 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: interesting to me number one, that you know, you're having 192 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: this proliferation of people who will talk to you, right, 193 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: And I could pay someone to talk to me, right, 194 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: not like you know, I could pay a therapist, I 195 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: could pay a spiritual director, I could pay a coach. 196 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: I could pay you know. 197 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: And it's just strictly like, I'm not in an executive 198 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: level position and i want an executive coach to help 199 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: me through some rough spots, right. It's more like I 200 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: need a friend right now. And so, as opposed to 201 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: turning Surrey on and asking her a series of questions, 202 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to go and meet with Ben, right, and 203 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: Ben's gonna be my buddy for an hour a week, right, 204 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: And I know it's gonna cost me, but it's not 205 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: really that much more than a movie, and it's gonna 206 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: be okay, right, you know, like that sort of mentality. 207 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if there isn't based on the way 208 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: our culture is gone, if there isn't just more underlying 209 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: trauma and mental health problems that are now creating this 210 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: proliferation In other words, when people are like unable to 211 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: as we've talked about in previous episodes, convey their sadness, 212 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: articulate their sadness, when they're unable to find any sort of. 213 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: Stable meaning in. 214 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 1: Their lives, when they're overly anxious about what's going to happen. 215 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: We are seeing a lot of turbulence in. 216 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: The world right now, and so I'm wondering as these 217 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: people are coming in, Yes, they're friends, but are you 218 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: also seeing sort of an odd uptick in the level 219 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: of mental health problem that your quote unquote friends might 220 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: be having. 221 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think to think through that is important 222 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 3: because the issues that are coming to bear. I want 223 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 3: to be careful how I say this, are are real 224 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 3: for the person, yes, but they're not really that big, okay, 225 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: in the sense that if we can provide them some 226 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 3: stability in relationship, stability in context of community, if there's 227 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 3: a way that we can provide these other things that 228 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 3: are so lacking in our cultural social context. Again, I 229 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 3: want to give space that it really affects them, but 230 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 3: these are not These are not life altering issues that 231 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 3: you need specialized help for all the time. Sometimes maybe, 232 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 3: but we're getting to a point in our society where 233 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 3: we're now because we've so destigmatized mental health, we think 234 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 3: this is not just the first, but the only response 235 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 3: to get the help that I need. So I do 236 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 3: find myself getting to the point with some clients and 237 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 3: asking that question, trying to be respectful and ethical in 238 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 3: the engagement. Is my space as a professional counselor the 239 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 3: best place to deal with these? And the question that 240 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 3: often comes back is, well, then who am I going 241 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 3: to talk to about this? Like that's a great question 242 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 3: to ask, And my hope is that actually exactly exactly 243 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 3: where I'm like, let's look through that a little bit 244 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 3: and see where that needs to be developed. And by 245 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 3: the way, that's going to take some work. It is 246 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 3: so much easier just for you to come to my office, 247 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: plunk down the fee, we'll meet for the hour, and 248 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 3: you're done. Man, I will schedule it for you. I 249 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: will give you a receipt at the end. Like it 250 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: is easy, peasy, right, no problems whatsoever. This other thing 251 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 3: that you probably need that takes a lot more time 252 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: and effort and energy, and it's not nearly as easy. 253 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 3: And yet when I hear a client say that, like, 254 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 3: where else am I going to talk to people about 255 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 3: these things. I get excited because I think that's exactly 256 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: where that needs to move. More so, not for all, 257 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: but for some to a certain degree, because they need 258 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 3: to build in those communal contexts that I think actually 259 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 3: give the right place, the more normative space, if I 260 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 3: can say it that way, for how to deal with 261 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 3: some of these struggles in life? 262 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: So what would you say some of those? 263 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: And somebody says, like, I've always been a guy who 264 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: doesn't have many friends, right, just confession time, Right, So 265 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna pump you for a free therapy 266 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: session basically, And so I just don't. I don't tend 267 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: to keep a lot of friends, right, Like I have 268 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: a small group of people that I would count as 269 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: my real friends. 270 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 2: And then that's about it, right. 271 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: And so if I can't get one or more of 272 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: them on the phone in any given day, right, if 273 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: I can't grab coffee with somebody, right, I don't have 274 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: a big I don't have a lot of resources beyond those. 275 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: Let's say. 276 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: So let's say I'm coming to you, and I say, well, 277 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: who would I talk to about these things? 278 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: Right? 279 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: How do you help counsel people to actually build those 280 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: relationships intoday's world. 281 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: Like, uh, you know, it was a running joke. 282 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: When I was at an academic dean some of the 283 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: young ladies would occasionally ask. 284 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: Me for dating advice. I have no idea why, but 285 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: I would tell them the same thing every time. I'm like, 286 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: my wife and I were high school sweethearts. 287 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: So the only advice I could give you is, you know, 288 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: awkwardly stand by our locker and ask for the dance. 289 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: I did, Like, I don't know anything else. 290 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: It'll worked for me, right, And so like, I think 291 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the things that I would be able 292 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: to tell someone, like where to go to find friends, right, 293 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: those are well gone. 294 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, like they're not there anymore. And so how do 295 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: you how do you counsel people to walk through that 296 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 2: a little bit? 297 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was talking to one of my kids about 298 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 3: the mall the other day. Right, if you could just 299 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 3: see like this confused look on their face, Like what 300 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: you actually went to a physical place, not necessarily shop, 301 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 3: but just to hang out with hanging out people? Yeah, 302 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 3: like yeah that was I mean the food court, go 303 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: see a movie maybe with a job, and we'd see, 304 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 3: you know, these girls going up the escalators, so all 305 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: of a sudden, we need to go down the escalator 306 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 3: and make these incidents. It was a whole thing, right right, 307 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: And I could see my kids just like, why would 308 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: you do that? 309 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 2: Exploding? 310 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 3: It did not comprehend it at all because to them 311 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: it just seems so foreign to engage into a place, 312 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 3: a particular place in time to then help encourage those 313 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 3: relationships to actually move into to use your idea. Rather 314 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: than standing by her locker room, I would find my 315 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: space next to you know, the record store or whatever. 316 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 3: Oh you you like you too? So do I look 317 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 3: at that right right, that those places, those those social 318 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 3: spaces are becoming less and less to a certain degree, 319 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 3: what I am encouraged by. I do think there is 320 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: a recognition to somebody. I just I saw this with 321 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: a university recently as they were advertising one of my 322 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: sons in university and the other one's about to start. 323 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 3: So we're getting tons of university flyers, and one of 324 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 3: them came in talking about how they have essentially shared 325 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 3: spaces that are intended to be digital free. So one 326 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 3: of the advertisements to eighteen year olds, given their marketing 327 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: research and some of the things they're realizing is that 328 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 3: they're intended to say, we want to be intentional about 329 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 3: building space to be able to engage. Now, I know 330 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: that's not for everyone. I know that's not going to 331 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 3: be an opportunity, but I am encouraged that I think 332 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 3: there is a movement afoot where people are recognizing we 333 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 3: do need to be intentional. So I'll say, even here 334 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 3: in the town I'm in, what I often tell people 335 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 3: is find out what you love and find other people 336 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 3: that love it. Find out what you love and find 337 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 3: out what other people love it as well. And if 338 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: you can use that as a at least starting point 339 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,199 Speaker 3: and use your online Like if you love needle point 340 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 3: and bag pipes, I guarantee you there's a website out 341 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 3: there that could probably find So I literally was just 342 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 3: talking about something about this yesterday. He actually that's why 343 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 3: bag pipes came to mind. He plays the bag pipes 344 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 3: all right, like he is a really good bag pipe player, 345 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 3: And he said the community that he's found within our 346 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 3: town of bag pipe players is pretty small, but they're 347 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 3: very close. And so even in the most obscure interest, 348 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: I'm realizing that most communities are starting to develop these spaces, 349 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 3: whether it is for high schoolers going into college, or 350 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 3: whether it's just the average Joe or Josephine that are recognizing. 351 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 3: As much as we can find a face group, group, 352 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 3: Facebook group online, how much better if we use that 353 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 3: website to say, hey, we're meeting here at this time. 354 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 3: A friend of mine just told me about a ukulele 355 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: group that's meeting at a local brewery strums and brews, 356 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 3: and so, if you love beer and if you love 357 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 3: ukulele or want to learn how to you, there is 358 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 3: a literal group that meets every Tuesday night at this 359 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 3: local pub just for that purpose. Wow, I look at 360 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: opportunities like that. Where again, it is so you mentioned 361 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 3: this earlier, James. We have so renormalized our constructs, our 362 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 3: social that it just seems so cultish like to then 363 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 3: enter into what it looks like of what's now should 364 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 3: be the norm. It seems so abnormal. It's gonna feel. 365 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 3: And so what I do with my clients when I 366 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 3: hear them ask those questions. I need to let you 367 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 3: know here's the way to do it, and it is 368 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 3: gonna feel really weird. Here's what we can do in therapy. 369 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 3: How do I help you manage the weirdness? So you 370 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 3: can still enter into the goodness. It's not a matter 371 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 3: of avoiding the weird. It's actually saying, how can I 372 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: build resilience and what is now just feels so odd 373 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 3: and foreign, but have the belief that's still better. Yeah, 374 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 3: find what you love, find others that love it, engage 375 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 3: with the opportunity. No, it's going to be weird, but 376 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 3: let's build resilience to actually enter into that. That's a 377 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 3: step in the right direction that gives you at least 378 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 3: some context to be able to move into what I 379 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 3: think is serb in this's largest systemic realities of how 380 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 3: we've become so isolated and apart from shared meeting that 381 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 3: creates this existential dread that is just so endemic within 382 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 3: our culture today. 383 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 2: It's interesting. 384 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: I did this conference over the last day or so, 385 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: and I met a few people there, and I remember 386 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: walking away from a couple of conversations. 387 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: Just in my head going, oh, that was awkward. 388 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 3: That was good. 389 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: That was awkward. 390 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, I'm like, you know, 391 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: these are the things that I need to do, Like 392 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: I need to go out and actually meet other human beings, 393 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: regardless of the awkwardness. But you definitely got the I 394 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 1: was like, wow, right, this is awkward. This was wow. 395 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 2: It wasn't just the other person, it was me too, 396 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 2: Like it was I was both bad. It's like wow, 397 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: that was just yeah. 398 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: I mean I wanted to say it just like name 399 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: it awkward. 400 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 3: And I kind of imagine I mean, again, I'll pull 401 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 3: on your expertise here, but the fact that Jesus pulls 402 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 3: in someone like the Disciples, right, people that on paper 403 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 3: should really have no reason to be together. Right, you 404 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,919 Speaker 3: have a zealot that's also you know, working with a 405 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 3: tax collector. There's no reason those two people should be 406 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 3: anywhere near. I mean, talk about someone saying, well, that 407 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 3: was awkward. I didn't think he was going to be 408 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 3: at this meal. And yet the awkwardness that we talked 409 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: about this earlier, that the struggle through it is actually 410 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 3: a means of actual growth both yeah, maturity sanctification through 411 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 3: the process. I wonder to what degree even the Disciples 412 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 3: is a a bit of a paradigm for consideration of 413 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 3: how do we I don't think you need to have 414 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty or seventy, maybe not even twelve, 415 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 3: but there is circles of influence that Jesus had with 416 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 3: his disciples of closeness, even had one that was you know, 417 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 3: on his bosom, as it were, in terms of the closeness, 418 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 3: it wasn't always about the numbers, but it was about 419 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 3: the intentionality who he connected with. I gotta wonder if 420 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 3: there's something there that we can pull on as an 421 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 3: exemplar for what we want for today as well. 422 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: So let me ask just one other question, because I 423 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: find this to be I'm going to use myself as 424 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: a paradigm for other people, which is always a little scary. 425 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: But you know, we have we have four kids. My 426 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,439 Speaker 1: son is a twenty year old, he's in college. My 427 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: two daughters are seventeen twins, and they play lacrosse. We 428 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: travel for a lacrosse an awful lot. And then we 429 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: adopted a five year old. So we've decided to make 430 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 1: our lives more chaotic and so so part of what 431 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: I what I find as my wife and I are 432 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: both still employed and have you know, jobs that are 433 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: fairly busy in and of themselves that it's like who's. 434 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: Got the time? 435 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:24,920 Speaker 3: Yeah? Right, yeah? 436 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: How do you do you run into people who just 437 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: have that sort of like cadence of life kind of 438 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: stuff where it's like, no, I can have work friends, 439 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: I can have colleagues, I can interact with my kids 440 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: and obviously my wife, but I don't really have a 441 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: lot of time for anybody else. 442 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is where my cynic comes out a little. 443 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 3: Be honest. Now, I need to temper that in the 444 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: therapeutic moment. I need to earn the right to enter 445 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 3: into the cynicism. Let me say this way. Every Sunday, 446 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 3: I think because on my iPhone, I have a screen 447 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 3: time report that comes up and it shows me how 448 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,239 Speaker 3: many hours I've spent on my phone, tells me what 449 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 3: apps I've been on my phone, it tells me specifically 450 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 3: how many times I've picked up my phone. The research 451 00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 3: is quite clear. We are we have the most luxury 452 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 3: time ever in human history than any other civilization, the 453 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 3: amount of time we have. Now again, I want to 454 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 3: I want to meet them at their perception in that 455 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 3: I'm so busy. I don't want to deny that as 456 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 3: a reality. That yes, work, family, church, demands of community, 457 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 3: those are all pressing for our attention. And we have 458 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 3: more luxury time afforded to us as a civilization than 459 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 3: has ever happened in human history. The technologies that we've advanced, 460 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: the structures that we've created, affords to us more time 461 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 3: on our hands than we've ever had. And that's proven 462 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 3: to me on a weekly based when I get that 463 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 3: screen time report. And so that's why I say the 464 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: Inner City comes out a little where when someone says 465 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 3: to me, I just don't have the time, I'm like, Okay, listen, 466 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 3: unless you're like the Pope and you've got literally like 467 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 3: every minute scheduled out of your life. Yeah, and most 468 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 3: of us aren't, or the president or some other high 469 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: dignitary that literally does have their entire schedules mapped out 470 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 3: for them. Right, The question is not do you have 471 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 3: the time? The question is what are you putting your 472 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 3: time into? Right, And you've probably heard the expression you 473 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 3: can find out what you love by two things right, 474 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 3: your calendar and your checkbook. The question is are we convinced? 475 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 3: Are we not just theologically and cognitively convinced, but are 476 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 3: we affectionately convinced that this thing called community, this thing 477 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 3: of intentional stepping into awkward places and go on, that 478 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: was weird, like all the messiness of relational connection is 479 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 3: actually better, not just good, but better because I think 480 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 3: that will then reorient how I use my calendar, how 481 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 3: I use my time, in a way that actually helps 482 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 3: people say it's not that I have a lack of time, 483 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 3: it's just where I'm putting my time to begin with. Yeah, 484 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,719 Speaker 3: that's I would argue ninety five percent of us we 485 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 3: have the time. It's just how we then position it 486 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 3: in a way that again looks different for different people. 487 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 3: Like you said before, it doesn't mean that you have 488 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,439 Speaker 3: to have tons of friends necessarily, you need to have someone, 489 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: you need to be intentional somewhere in a way that 490 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: says there are some people, some key people in my 491 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 3: life that I can really count on in a reciprocal fashion, 492 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: both that can rely on me and I can rely 493 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 3: on them as well. But I think that that that's 494 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 3: a reordering of not just our time, but our passions 495 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 3: to then correlate to the time. 496 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: It's interesting. 497 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: I mean, I've had that discussion with so many organizations 498 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: when I consult, because their way of saying we don't 499 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: have the time is we don't have that kind of resource, 500 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,719 Speaker 1: right and like you do, you actually do. You're just 501 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: spending it over here like you've got it. You just 502 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: you're spending it in all the wrong places, I mean, right, 503 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: and so I mean I think. 504 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: That's a really good a really good word. But like. 505 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 1: I I tend to agree with you. I don't have 506 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: the screen time thing on my phone. I'm not going 507 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: to because I don't want to know. I'm happy to 508 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: be blissfully ignorant. Yeah, I don't need to know that information. 509 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,640 Speaker 1: But h but no, I mean it makes intuitive sense 510 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: to me that for ninety five percent of people, you know, 511 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: when they're really saying I don't have enough time, what 512 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 1: they're really saying is the way I've allocated my time 513 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: brackets out friendships and community exactly. 514 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 3: You know, it's a great way of saying it, exactly. 515 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's funny. Well, any other like pro tips. 516 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: I mean. 517 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, getting back involved in church 518 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: intuitively seems like what I'd want to suggest to people. 519 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: I don't want to say, hey, go get involved in church. 520 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: But then I kind of sit back and I'm like. 521 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: Well get involved. 522 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: How yeah, right, because it's easy to get involved in 523 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: the church and be like, you know, busy yourself with 524 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: something in the church and never actually make any real connections. 525 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: You're just like the door greeterer, and so you say 526 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: hello to everyone who comes in or you're you're working security, 527 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: and unless somebody mouths off, you don't have to do 528 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: anything with it, you know what I'm saying, Like, there's 529 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: all these different ways where you can be involved and 530 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 1: still not actually engage anything. 531 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 3: You can be really really involved and still really lonely. 532 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of like we talked about previously. I mean, 533 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: even small groups. I think it's sort of like that. 534 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: It's like, and I don't have anything against small groups, 535 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: but I would say, just for me, it's easy for 536 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: me to use that as a checkbox and go, well, 537 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: I went to small group this week and just sort 538 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: of be there and relatively checked out because I don't 539 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: really enjoy it as much as I think other people might. 540 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: And I'm not you know what I'm saying, Like, I. 541 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: I think part of it is just I'm a huge geek, 542 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: and so a lot of times I have trouble setting 543 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,479 Speaker 1: that aside in a context where we're studying the Bible, 544 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: like I lose myself and right, I would take total 545 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: blame for it, right, but there's just something about being 546 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: in that small group and and like, you know, you're 547 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: looking at this passage, and I'm like, I wonder what 548 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: the Greek says there, like. 549 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 2: Like I know no one else wants to know that. 550 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 3: I was just say, you're saying no one else is 551 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 3: asking that question. 552 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: No one else is asking that question. 553 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: But in my head, that's where my head goes, and 554 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: so they don't tend to work. 555 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 3: Well for me. 556 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 2: I'll say it like that. 557 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: Those are like it's almost a lot of effort for 558 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: me to be there and be present, and that's challenging. 559 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, what would you what would you suggest? 560 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: Like, is there a way to be involved in church 561 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: again that sort of find what you like or find 562 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: what you love. 563 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 2: And find other people who love it kind of ideas? 564 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 2: Is that sort of similar within the context? 565 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 3: I think so, right, And I think this is the beauty, 566 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 3: the struggle, and the beauty of the local church. Right. 567 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 3: When Paul talks about different members, different abilities, different different gifts, 568 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 3: I don't think I don't think I try to dig 569 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 3: into that enough at times. Let me give you an example, 570 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 3: I too, am a self proclaimed geek. I like geeking 571 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,440 Speaker 3: out on stuff like that. I think this is why 572 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,680 Speaker 3: I enjoy coming to your podcast, because I love these 573 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 3: conversations that. I tell it to my wife later, She's like, 574 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 3: and he did them on purpose? Like, why what would 575 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 3: you do that for? Gas? I love it. I there's 576 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 3: something about me finding people in the church that are 577 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 3: non geek. I need the non geeks in my life 578 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 3: to round me out, to sanctify me, to rub off 579 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: those hard edges. And I also love finding the other 580 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 3: geeks in church. Yeah, there's something about that that just 581 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 3: enlivens my heart in a way that helps me then reckon, 582 00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 3: I what can I bring to the table. Here's something 583 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 3: that they're bringing the table. There is this mutual joy 584 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 3: that we find in this geekdom of whatever it is 585 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 3: that we're talking about, right, And that doesn't have to 586 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 3: be that for me. It's also music. I love involving 587 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 3: myself in the ministry of music in the local church. 588 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 3: I'm not a great musician, but I love getting together 589 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 3: with good musicians and utilizing that common shared language of 590 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 3: music in a way that just builds my soul up 591 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 3: in a way. And so similarly, when I hear other 592 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 3: musicians that don't do it well, I'm like, ugh, really like, 593 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 3: oh man, that's hurting my soul. And I need that 594 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 3: because I need to then how do I temper patience 595 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 3: and long suffering and all those other things. But there's 596 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 3: something about finding other people and the loves that you 597 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 3: have that again, Yeah, I keep on referencing Lewis. A 598 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 3: good friend is when you find someone else and they 599 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 3: say you two, and you find someone that likes the 600 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 3: same things you like and you make this bond. Or 601 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 3: as Jerry Seinfeld says, when you walk outside your front 602 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 3: door as a little kid, is you live here too, 603 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,479 Speaker 3: Let's be best friends. And that's how you form your 604 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 3: early friendships is because you are in this proximity of right, 605 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 3: this is where we're living. I kind of imagine there's 606 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: something about that that that we need to kind of 607 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 3: push into as well. Find the ones that you resonate with. 608 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 3: Know that it's not the entirety of the church, and 609 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 3: you need to res as we're engaged with others. That's 610 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 3: take a place to start right to find the things 611 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 3: that you really love, really can either geek out on 612 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 3: or play with others, or engage in ways that go 613 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 3: beyond just attendance. Being there that really engages your mind 614 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 3: and heart as a good place to start as well. 615 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: Very cool, Well, I think those are some good ways 616 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: that we can kind of ease our way into, well, 617 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: not ease our way into, maybe ease our way out 618 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: of therapy, and sort of said, why don't I try 619 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: some of these tears first? 620 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 2: Let me go make a friend. 621 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: Let me find somebody in my proximity who's also loved 622 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: sarcasm and you know, wry humor and in the. 623 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 2: Off the Bible, right in the office, right. Let me 624 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: find that. 625 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: Person and and develop some relationships before I decide No, 626 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: I have something more serious I need to deal with, 627 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: and this does require some therapy. I think that's a 628 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: good word. And because I don't think it's sustainable the 629 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: way that we're using therapy or even spiritual directors or 630 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: any of those things, I just feel like those are 631 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: and not to put design and maybe you'll disagree with this, 632 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,719 Speaker 1: but the word that comes to mind, it's like we're 633 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: creating a transactional economy around getting self help. And I 634 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: don't think that's what it's intended to be. 635 00:34:54,040 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 3: No, it's it's intended it's meeting the need. Yeah, but 636 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 3: it's not good to sustain the need. 637 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, that's a good way to put it. 638 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,320 Speaker 3: I think we need to be here to help in 639 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,520 Speaker 3: the moment of struggle of both depression and or existential dread. Listen, 640 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 3: I think there's a place for that. If we continue 641 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 3: to look at the mental health industry and all its 642 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 3: corollaries as the only main way to sustain that, I 643 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 3: think we're in a world of hurt because it's not 644 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 3: it's not structured, it doesn't it can't provide the resources 645 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 3: to sustain those larger, onto logical issues. So it's a 646 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 3: good place to meet the need, it's not a great 647 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 3: place to sustain the need. 648 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:38,720 Speaker 2: That's perfect. 649 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, Ben, Well, thank you for your perspective 650 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: on this. Really appreciate you thinking it through with me. 651 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: And we'll call it an episode there. We'll come back 652 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: next time. We've got some other topics we're going to 653 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: be discussing. But the next one's going to be around 654 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: addiction and numbing and some new some of the new 655 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: drug trends, and so we're going to dive into that. 656 00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: I know that there are a lot of Christians who 657 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: have questions around these issues. 658 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 2: Used to be a much bigger. 659 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,400 Speaker 1: Deal, I think within Christianity and using these sort of 660 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: drugs to alter your brain, now we sort of alter 661 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: our brain all the time and we don't even think 662 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: about it, so that's fantastic. But we'll dig into that 663 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: a little bit in the next episode. But thanks for 664 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: being here, Thanks everybody for listening. We'll catch you on 665 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to 666 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: take a second to thank the team at Life Audio 667 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 668 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,720 Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens 669 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got 670 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.