WEBVTT - Do the Ends Justify the Means? 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:07.040 Life Audio on today's episode of Timeless Wisdom. 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.000 So here's one today I want to I want to 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:16.000 attack a cliche. Now, let me say a word about cliches. 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.119 These are things, These are lines that are used over 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:22.680 and over and they become a cliche. A haste makes 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:25.200 waste is a good is a good example? Anyway, Haste 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:27.800 makes waste is a great example. And it's true. Most 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:34.120 cliches are true. Okay, However, there is there there there 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:40.440 is a small fraction that is used and and just 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.200 isn't true for And the one I'm dealing with today 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.520 is the ends don't justify the means. 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:51.280 That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Welcome 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:55.600 to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of hours 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.920 of Dennis's lectures, courses, and classic radio programs. And to 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:10.759 purchase Dennis Prager Rational Bibles, go to Dennisprager dot com. 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:11.880 Or not to be. 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:14.160 That is the question? 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:18.920 Where was God? Isn't God supposed to be good, supposed 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:19.480 to love us? 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.600 Does God want us to suffer ten years? 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:23.760 You're not finished yet? 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.119 Why did you go there? 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:30.000 Who are you? 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:32.240 Bruce? 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:34.479 I'm God? 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:35.480 Bingo? 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:36.480 Yazi? 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:38.160 Is that your final answer. 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.080 Our survey says God. 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:42.360 Bing ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.000 Well, it was nice to meet you God, Thank you 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.480 for the Grand Canyon, and good luck with the apocalypse. 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.520 Hello everybody, this is the Ultimate Issues Hour on the 0:01:56.520 --> 0:02:01.320 Dennis Prager Show. I enjoy this hour immensely feedback from you. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.120 Many or all or nearly all of you feel the same. 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.960 I talk about some great issue in life on this 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:14.000 hour and try to clarify it for you, and we 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:17.200 have some really good dialogues. I just might add something 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:26.280 I long ago made the observation that, ironically, though people 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:31.200 tend to be wiser as they get older, they abandon 0:02:31.400 --> 0:02:37.280 talk about ultimate issues at a fairly early age. When 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:39.680 you were in college, you know, you talk to kids 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.600 at you know, at midnight or something if you weren't 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:46.799 drunk about you know, is there a God? Is there 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.000 an after life? What is good and evil? What is 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:56.560 the purpose of life? And then after college, shortly afterward, 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.960 one is preoccupied with the mundane. And I don't say 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.320 it in a negative way. We have to be or 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:07.600 we don't survive making a living, getting married, raising kids. 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.720 I mean, these are the things that take up people's 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:17.000 attention plus entertainment, of which there is a vast amount 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.959 and a lot of it meaningless and some of it wonderful. 0:03:21.480 --> 0:03:26.720 And so what happens is we forget the ultimate issues discussions. Also, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.200 a lot of people make up their minds on issues 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:34.519 when they're twenty or eighteen or twenty two, and that's it. 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:37.640 I mean, how many of you have changed your minds 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.800 on any big issue since you're twenty interesting question like 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.200 capital punishment. It's not my subject today, but that's an example. 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.360 Most people are against capital punishment at twenty, or against 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:54.520 capital punishment at forty, and it's just they decided at 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:56.560 that age and that was it, and there's no more 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:01.000 to talk about. So it's a very good thing that 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:05.240 we review this whole issue of the ultimate issues of 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:10.360 life on the show now that we're adult. So here's 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:16.360 one today I wanted. I want to attack a cliche. Now, 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.080 let me say a word about cliches. These are things, 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:22.719 These are lines that are used over and over and 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:25.279 they become a cliche. A haste makes waste? Is a 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.120 good is a good example? Give me give me a 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.240 few more? Actually, well, and and and i'll and I'll 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:34.479 analyze a stitting well of that, but nobody uses that. 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.800 A stitch in time saves nine? If you William, did 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.080 you ever hear that in your life? I'm telling you, Alan, 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:43.479 you're dating yourself. Even I never used it, Na, but 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.880 it's the cliche. Nobody uses anymore. Stitch in time saves nine. 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.720 So if you said that to somebody today, they wouldn't 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:51.120 have a First of all, I don't even know what 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.839 it means. I mean, I know what it means. Do 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.520 something in its time and then you'll save longer time. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.400 But you think I ever stitched anything to together to 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.400 know what it means. Anyway, Haste makes waste. Is a 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:09.760 great example, and it's true. Most cliches are true. Okay, however, 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:15.040 there is there there is a small fraction that is 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.839 used and and just isn't true. And the one I'm 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.920 dealing with today is the ends don't justify the means. 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:29.080 It is said so often, and it is said as 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:36.080 if it's a given. The ends don't justify the means. Now, sometimes, 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.960 of course that's true a silly example. So just to 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.800 make it clear, I'll use a silly example, one that 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:50.040 nobody could dispute. If your end is to exterminate the m. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:56.600 I don't know. Your house has become somewhat infested with cockroaches, right, 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:02.720 and somebody brings along a bazooka and blows up your house. 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:08.480 The ends getting rid of the cockroaches do not justify 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:14.480 the means bazookaizing your house. Okay, we are all in agreement. 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:19.640 In that instance, the ends did not justify the means. However, 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:25.600 if your house were infested with terrorists who were intent 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.960 on blowing up parts of your city, then the use 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.599 of a bazuka may well be justified. Now, how then, 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:38.799 does the same exact means using a bazuka to blow 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.039 up your house or parts of your house? How is 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.640 it in case one justified and in case two unjustified? 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.279 The answer is because of the end. Of course, the 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:55.080 ends justify the means. When you are fighting terrorists, a 0:06:55.120 --> 0:07:00.080 bazuka means the means of a bazuka is warranted. If 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.000 you are fighting cockroaches, then the use of a bazooka 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:07.120 is unwarranted. Now, the reason I sound so annoyed is 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:12.960 because I am annoyed. That's why that I can't stand 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:18.720 fuzzy thinking when people should think better. Sometimes the ends 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.480 justify the means, and sometimes they don't end of issue. 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:27.760 But to categorically state ends don't justify means is not true. 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.239 Now call please, because if you have, you know, any 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.840 doubts about this, or you think I'm wrong, or you 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.640 want to give examples in either direction, I am all 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:43.720 ears one eight prager seven seven six one eight p 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.160 r a g Er seven seven six, which translates digitally 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:50.840 to eight seven seven two four three triple seven six 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:57.480 eight seven seven two four three triple seven six. You 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.680 can say, of course, you can can say in this 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:07.720 instance the ends don't justify the means. Of course that 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:12.440 would be that would be appropriate. But to offer as 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:17.800 a general rule that ends don't justify means is just wrong. 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.760 I don't know how else means are justified except by ends. 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.160 That's the whole way we know whether it's justified or not. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:32.920 Ends ends are exactly what justify means or they're not justified. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.720 How else do you know? Is the use of nuclear 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:43.640 weapons justified as which means as a means overwhelmingly not? 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.400 Was it justified in World War two? End World War 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:53.559 two with Japan? I think it was the ends, saving 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:59.080 millions of Allied and millions of Japanese lives justified the 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:01.640 means of drop being an atom bomb on a city. 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.680 I hate to say it. It hurts me to say 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.679 it because of the suffering that it entailed. But it 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:14.760 prevented so much more suffering of both Japanese and Allies 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.560 that there was there was no choice. Now, you can agree, 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:23.439 you can disagree, but at least understand the point that 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:28.720 the only way to justify means or unjustify means is 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:35.640 by their ends. So the whole cliche is meaningless and untrue, 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.520 worse than meaningless. Half the time the ends justify the means. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:49.400 Half the time they don't. Uh, alrighty one A prager 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.800 seven seven six eight seven seven two four three triple 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:58.320 seven six. I cannot think offhand. Maybe some of you 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:05.360 will remind me. I cannot think offhand. Uh of a 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:11.760 more frequently used, incorrect cliche. See, war is not the 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.720 answer is not a cliche. It's it's a silly, silly, 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.680 silly bumper sticker. So it's it's but by the way, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:24.040 it's a it's an offshoot of the ends don't justify 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:24.520 the means. 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:25.480 War. 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:30.440 War is never justified. That's what that's what it says. Basically, Okay, 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:33.720 let's go to Dallas, Texas. Josh, Hi, Josh, Dennis Prager, 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.160 thank you, Hey, I was just calling. 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:40.280 To I think make a little bit of a clarification 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:44.240 because some people, I think incorrectly use the end doesn't 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.600 justify the means. I think that, of course good ends 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.760 justified good means. But I think what really most of 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.960 us mean when we say that is that you can 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.680 never do good or you can never do evil, so 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:00.480 that good may come. In other words, evil, Our good 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.280 ends do not justify evil means. The example you use 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.280 is something that I would say is perfectly acceptable because 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:12.360 I don't think that there's anything intrinsically evil about firing 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:12.960 a bazooka. 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.400 So well, then what's intrinsically evil? 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.880 Well, I think that there are. I think cold blooded 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:21.400 murder would be interesting. 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.560 Yes, but cold blooded murder the means was killing. Sometimes 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:28.600 it's it's totally justified. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.120 You would make a distinction though, between murder and killing. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.200 I mean, yes, hold on with me, hold on with me, 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.520 and it is a very important discussion. You see. My 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.240 contention is that we only decide whether the means are 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:43.160 evil based on the ends. That's my whole point. Back 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:43.679 in a moment. 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:51.840 This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:05.920 Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:10.920 Hi everybody, Dennis Brager Here the Ultimate Issues hour Tuesday, 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.360 the third hour of my show, and if you don't 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:17.880 get all three hours of the show, you should consider 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:24.800 doing terrible things to your station. Joking joking joke alert, 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:37.200 joke alert. The subject for today's Ultimate Issue show is 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:42.160 taking on the erroneous cliche the ends never justify the means. 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.480 Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I don't know of 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:50.000 any other way in general to assess the justification of 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:58.040 means except by the ends. Killing, right, Killing is justified 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.920 in some cases depending on what the end is. If 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.760 you're if the end is to get rid of a 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.440 sharp shooter who was shooting children, then it's it. Then 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:15.679 the ends justify killing. Uh. If it is a man 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.439 going into a home and just murdering people, the ends 0:13:20.480 --> 0:13:22.840 being to shut them up so that they don't witness 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.760 his burglary, then clearly the ends don't justify the means. 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:31.720 All right, now, let's go. Let's go back here to 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:36.120 Josh in Dallas. Josh, thanks for holding on and thank 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.240 you for calling. So you were saying, if the means 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.160 are evil, then they're never justified by the ends. But 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:48.199 but but what is an intrinsically evil act? Just give 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.520 me one no, no, wait wait wait wait wait wait 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.320 wait wait wait wait the act, the act is killing. 0:13:57.000 --> 0:14:01.400 You determine if it's murder, cold blooded or not by 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:05.520 the context, by the ends. Correct. 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.920 So, I mean what you're looking at is not just 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:11.120 the objective. You're looking at the subjective and the relative. 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.760 So in order for the right act, yeah, you have 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:17.000 to have all of those be in line. 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:17.400 Correct. 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.360 The example I always used to explain this, and we 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.240 have a really good example recently in the news is 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.880 you know, abortion. I think it is an excellent end 0:14:29.240 --> 0:14:32.480 to seek the end of abortion, But to kill George 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:36.360 Tiller in order to accomplish that end is not justified. 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.760 Even though it's a great end to save the lives 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.200 of little babies, it is not justified. 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.000 But by the way, I will just say, I will 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:49.400 just say, you picked a very difficult example. Incidentally, I 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.240 don't I don't justify his murder whatsoever. I hope the 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.560 guy is actually I hope he's I hope he is 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:59.880 a given capital punishment the murderer. However, however, for those 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.800 you do believe that it is mass murder, abortion uhh, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.480 the exact same moral equivalent as Nazi mass murder, Communist 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.920 mass murder. It is hard. I don't know how you 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.680 make the case that it is entirely unjustified. 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.920 Well, I think you would have to. You have to 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.880 look at what we call the principle of double effect, correct, 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:23.240 where you don't ever intend to do evil, but the evil. 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.200 You know some things that are nobody entirely listening. 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.800 Nobody intends to do evil, very few people. The abortion 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.960 doctor doesn't intend to do evil either. That's what intentions 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.240 no matter. Listen to my Ultimate Issues show on intentions. 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.680 That was I think the last one. Intentions don't mount 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:42.840 to a hill of beans. It's what it's what one does, 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.160 not when one intends. Look, you're obviously a thoughtful young man. 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.120 I appreciate your call. Uh that was not a good 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:54.920 example though, because uh, there is If you really do 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:59.840 believe that there is that there is no difference between uh, 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.440 abortion and or a doctor who performs let's say, a 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.720 thousand abortions and a man who murders a thousand people, 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.800 then I don't know how you exactly argue morally against 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:18.800 killing that person. Now, I don't think it's the same. 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.960 I am absolutely opposed to abortion, except in the case 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.040 of saving a mother's life. But I don't use the 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:29.320 language of mass murder for that very reason because I 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:32.840 would have to actually if it is mass murder identical. 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:34.840 And I'm not going to debate this now. This is 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:36.920 not the subjects, so don't call in on it. Forgive me, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.680 you know, I'll happily talk about this another time. I 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:45.080 talk about just about everything. But if one uses that 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.640 language and means it literally, it is very hard to 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.360 come up with an argument against shooting an abortion doctor. 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.600 Which is no justification for shooting the abortion doctor, but 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:57.320 it is an argument for not using the language of 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:05.120 mass murder, mass humide, terrible evil, terrible sin, immoral. There 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.920 are many things that it can be called and ought 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.720 to be called, all right. So that's that's why it 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:16.320 wasn't a good example. All right. Now, Again, our our 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.080 our topic here is ends. Justifying means. That's exactly how 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.080 means half the time are justified because we know what 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:27.840 the what what our ends are. Okay, Long Beach, California 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:29.600 and John hello, John Dennis Praeger. 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.359 His call was great. You know, I'm I have to 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.880 say it's gonna be tough to follow. But going back 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:37.720 to one of the last examples he gave, how about 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:41.840 allowing the harvesting of children in the womb for stem 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:46.199 cell treatment. If he harvest one, beat us and the 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:48.160 heal one hundred people, wouldn't it be worthwhile? 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.359 Yeah? Well, that for a challenge, right though. It is 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.680 a good challenge. That is why good people differ on 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.680 this one. I never said from the beginning of this hour, 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:04.800 I have not said, or in fact, I've said the opposite. 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.320 I said, sometimes the ends do justify the means, and 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:11.920 sometimes they don't. My argument is not that the ends 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.960 always justify the means, of course not. My argument is 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.679 that we should drop the cliche that the ends don't 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.199 justify the means half the time they do. You have 0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.480 picked an extremely complex issue. I am opposed to the 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:30.640 harvesting of nascent human beings of embryos for stem cell research. 0:18:31.080 --> 0:18:33.679 I am we could go I mean my whole I 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:35.399 agree with him that. You know, I don't see how 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:36.959 you can say, let us do evil and good they 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:38.680 come and I can give you a couple more examples. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.600 I mean, you could you use the example of the Appams. 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:42.320 Well, yes, the atom bomb. 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:45.800 A lot of people on both sides or have good arguments, 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.120 but why not just start every war with an atom 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:51.399 bomb strike to save life if less people are going 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.119 to die in the atomic strike. 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:56.520 Because we assume, we assume that, well before that we 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.720 can be victorious. You don't know, you are not a 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:05.400 proper that who knows the future. Well, however, I will say. 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.000 This, that's that's the way they made a decision in Japan. 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.560 Like you said, they don't know the future, but they 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.120 had a pretty good idea based. 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:15.600 On there was no other way. It was clear there 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.399 was no other way to end the war. That was 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.959 a given. It was a given the number of people 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.040 on both sides who would die if the bomb were 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.399 not dropped. So you had to you had well, you know, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.520 certain things you do know in the future. I mean, 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:32.040 you know. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:36.920 Uments on both sides. I've heard them both, and I. 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.320 Don't think there is any good argument on the other side. 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.960 I don't. But but if you if the very fact 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:43.879 that you believe that there were good arguments for the 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.200 atom bomb proves my point that the ends in that 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:51.400 case justified the means, a means which overwhelmingly we would 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.359 deplore the dropping of an atom bomb on civilians. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.639 There are a number of examples I can give no, no. 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:58.280 No, wa wait wait wait just the wait wait it's 0:19:58.320 --> 0:19:59.520 not you're moving on? 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.080 Do you what I'm saying? I just don't let good 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.000 may come. That's the bottom line. I agree with the 0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:07.359 first caller that what you can't prescribe the means, what 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:09.840 is right you must do, and what is wrong you mustn't. 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.119 Okay, I feel terrible, but I don't think we got 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:14.200 anywhere back in a moment. 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.000 This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.120 Now back to more of Dennis Praeger's Timeless Wisdom. 0:20:39.840 --> 0:20:46.080 Wow, this is fascinating. Pretty much have equal numbers of 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:49.159 the folks religious and secular, right and left disagreeing with me. 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.000 That's why I chose this, because it is such a 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:59.320 widespread statement. The ends never justify the means or the 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:02.160 ends don't you just toy the means that I've decided 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.760 to think it through with you, because in fact, half 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.240 the time the ends do justify means, and half the 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:14.960 time they don't. So it's not worth making any generalized 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:20.880 statement about ends and means because it depends on the situation. Well, 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.360 I feel terrible about my last caller because we really 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:29.000 got nowhere, and it's not by I mean nowhere is 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:31.479 not that he didn't convince me, or I didn't convince him. 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.639 It's that we were no clearer about where we differed, 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:36.720 which is always troubling to me. I like clarity. I 0:21:36.720 --> 0:21:38.960 don't care if you agree with me or not at all, 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.080 because I kept asking, and then we would move, or 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:46.840 I felt he would move to another subject. And I said, 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.840 if the very fact that you agree that there are 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:54.000 two sides, at least, well that there are two sides. 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:56.440 So the issue of was the atom bomb justified means 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.879 you agree with me. Normally the means of dropping it 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:07.680 Adam Baum on civilians is clearly evil, of course, But 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.440 the very fact that there is a case where you 0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:12.720 even acknowledge it might not have been evil. I think 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:17.000 it was correct means that the ends ending World War II, 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.680 saving millions of Japanese and Allied lives was worth it. 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:25.120 So it was the ends that justified those means. Now, 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.359 there are things that can never be justified, or or 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:32.560 I cannot imagine a circumstance where you take innocent people 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:38.000 you and you adjust, and you sadistically perform experiments on them, 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:41.639 like the Nazis did in their camps. We freeze people alive. 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.480 And well, they said, well it was for medical research, Dennis, 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.480 what if they found out some great cure that way, 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:52.159 it wouldn't matter. It wouldn't matter that that is so 0:22:52.400 --> 0:22:56.159 intrinsically wrong. And by the way it was, it was 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:58.800 not done for medical research. So it's a phony end 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:02.000 in any event, because they did it for sadists, for 0:23:02.040 --> 0:23:04.400 the statistic reasons they would have given the people's sedatives 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:17.359 they enjoyed, inflicting suffering. Okay, let's go to Kathy in 0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:24.080 sharn Ohio. Is that correct, Kathy Sharan Sharon, I knew, 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.639 I am right. Our screen will be through Leah chastised. 0:23:27.080 --> 0:23:28.960 Yeah, we're between Cleveland and act and Ohio. 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:30.400 Yeah. 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:32.520 I wanted to disagree with you, and I wanted to 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.879 present it from a Catholic theological point of view. And 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:40.119 I have a master's in theology in Catholic theology, and 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:43.320 Saint Thomas Quine is taught that the first rule of 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:47.160 morality is do good, avoid evil, which I think most 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.159 people who could agree with and then from there. The 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:55.159 Church in the Catechism specifically defines the three components of 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.000 a moral act, and all three components of the moral 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:00.320 act must be good for the act and its to 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:03.840 be good. Those three components are the ends, the means, 0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:08.200 which is usually the act itself, and then the circumstances, 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.320 which usually includes intentions. So first I want to disagree 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:14.080 with you on the intentions. Good intentions never make an 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.280 evil act good, but bad intentions can make a good 0:24:17.359 --> 0:24:20.760 act bad. In other words, say making love to your wife, 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:24.800 but if you have a bad intention of inflicting pain 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.960 or humiliating her, then you know that makes the the 0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:31.800 act bad. So all three of those must be good 0:24:31.840 --> 0:24:33.760 for an act to be morally good. As I said, 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:35.960 so something right, Okay? 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:39.040 So so yeah, So let's take let's take the Catholic 0:24:39.160 --> 0:24:43.880 woman who about whom there is a show Broadway play 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:50.480 about the Irena up the Updyke, the Catholic religious, Catholic 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:55.040 Polish woman who saved a dozen or more Jews in 0:24:55.200 --> 0:24:58.439 hiding because she slept with a married Nazi. 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.399 That's evil, Okay, that's what. 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:04.760 Your thinking leads to the belief that she should have 0:25:04.880 --> 0:25:08.400 let them all go to their deaths rather than sleep 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:09.000 with the Nazi. 0:25:09.440 --> 0:25:11.480 No, well, she's doing an evil act. 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:12.240 No, she's not. 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.520 Sleeping with someone who's not her husband is an evil act. 0:25:15.560 --> 0:25:17.640 It's it's for anication or alter. 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:19.159 Right, So you would have told her not to do it? 0:25:19.720 --> 0:25:21.760 Yes, okay, all right? 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:24.920 Well all I can say is now you know why 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:28.000 I am making war on the notion that the ends 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:31.600 never justify the means. It leads to that that sort 0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:35.360 of thinking. I think the vast majority of Catholic scholars 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.680 would not say that she she committed an evil, that 0:25:38.920 --> 0:25:41.160 it was a net good, by the way, and it's 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:44.840