1
00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:01,569
Speaker 1: I lived a very degenerate life. I was sleeping around

2
00:00:01,610 --> 00:00:03,790
Speaker 1: with guys and girls and also got into drugs. Just

3
00:00:03,830 --> 00:00:05,590
Speaker 1: a wrong crowd. And the whole time though, I was

4
00:00:05,610 --> 00:00:07,110
Speaker 1: carrying a lot of shame. I was just in so

5
00:00:07,130 --> 00:00:08,810
Speaker 1: much pain. There would be nights where I would be

6
00:00:08,830 --> 00:00:11,229
Speaker 1: in my room in high school, just screaming at God

7
00:00:11,250 --> 00:00:12,550
Speaker 1: and being like, why did you create me this way?

8
00:00:12,630 --> 00:00:14,210
Speaker 1: I hate myself and God must hate me too.

9
00:00:14,460 --> 00:00:15,720
Speaker 2: I remember the first time that I saw you is

10
00:00:15,780 --> 00:00:17,600
Speaker 2: probably a couple months ago. And I remember I was like,

11
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,880
Speaker 2: who's this young girl? Just honestly, I was like dunking

12
00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:21,119
Speaker 2: on these Muslims out in the street.

13
00:00:21,180 --> 00:00:23,840
Speaker 3: How did the Torah become? It was revealed to Moses.

14
00:00:23,940 --> 00:00:24,900
Speaker 2: What was revealed?

15
00:00:25,020 --> 00:00:25,600
Speaker 3: What was revealed?

16
00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 1: The book. What book? The story of Joseph is 98 verses.

17
00:00:29,620 --> 00:00:33,120
Speaker 1: in the Quran? How many contradictions, irreconcilable differences do you

18
00:00:33,140 --> 00:00:35,190
Speaker 1: think are in those 98 verses and our Torah?

19
00:00:35,330 --> 00:00:36,199
Speaker 3: I honestly don't.

20
00:00:35,990 --> 00:00:37,710
Speaker 1: Even have a clue.

21
00:00:37,710 --> 00:00:37,790
Speaker 2: 944.

22
00:00:37,790 --> 00:00:39,890
Speaker 1: The whole Levitical priesthood, the killing of the firstborn, the

23
00:00:39,930 --> 00:00:41,870
Speaker 1: redemption of the firstborn with the Levitical priesthood, that's all

24
00:00:41,909 --> 00:00:43,949
Speaker 1: dependent on the Passover. All dependent on the killing of

25
00:00:43,970 --> 00:00:45,330
Speaker 1: the firstborn. All of these things.

26
00:00:45,450 --> 00:00:49,380
Speaker 4: What are some of the ways that more trained, formal

27
00:00:49,580 --> 00:00:52,360
Speaker 4: Muslim apologists will try to respond to this if they.

28
00:00:52,220 --> 00:00:52,640
Speaker 3: Do it all?

29
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 1: When they're being honest?

30
00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:54,100
Speaker 3: Yeah, tell me.

31
00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:54,900
Speaker 1: They don't have an answer.

32
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 4: Bellu, you are 21 years old, and you are making

33
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:05,050
Speaker 4: some waves online in terms of evangelism and discipleship and apologetics.

34
00:01:05,250 --> 00:01:06,810
Speaker 4: I want my audience to be introduced to.

35
00:01:06,810 --> 00:01:07,289
Speaker 3: Who you are.

36
00:01:07,650 --> 00:01:10,930
Speaker 4: But first, if somebody's like, Bell, I'm not familiar with yourself,

37
00:01:11,250 --> 00:01:13,110
Speaker 4: how would you introduce yourself?

38
00:01:13,390 --> 00:01:16,090
Speaker 1: That's a great question. It's kind of changed over the

39
00:01:16,209 --> 00:01:19,110
Speaker 1: last few months and sometimes weeks. So my ministry is

40
00:01:19,190 --> 00:01:22,869
Speaker 1: very new. I stepped out into full-time ministry in January

41
00:01:23,170 --> 00:01:25,830
Speaker 1: through March. It was kind of transitioned. And I have

42
00:01:25,870 --> 00:01:28,960
Speaker 1: two missions, two mission statements. One is to raise a

43
00:01:29,420 --> 00:01:33,020
Speaker 1: biblically literate generation, and the second one is to make

44
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,300
Speaker 1: Muslims Christian. And, of course, I care about all lost souls,

45
00:01:36,380 --> 00:01:39,580
Speaker 1: but those are the two main things of my ministry currently.

46
00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 4: So you have a heart for discipleship for Christians, and

47
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:44,110
Speaker 4: you have a heart for evangelism.

48
00:01:44,140 --> 00:01:45,730
Speaker 3: That is so much the same for me.

49
00:01:45,770 --> 00:01:47,430
Speaker 4: Those are the two things that I focus on.

50
00:01:47,970 --> 00:01:49,070
Speaker 3: I first heard of you in two ways.

51
00:01:49,620 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 4: This summer, somebody was asking me for someone who would

52
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,530
Speaker 4: debate Muslims, preferably a female.

53
00:01:54,550 --> 00:01:56,690
Speaker 3: Someone was like, have you heard.

54
00:01:56,410 --> 00:01:59,330
Speaker 4: Of this young– I don't remember what word they used,

55
00:01:59,370 --> 00:02:03,290
Speaker 4: but like this young, sharp, motivated apologist named Bell Lou.

56
00:02:03,330 --> 00:02:03,950
Speaker 3: I was like, I hadn't.

57
00:02:04,370 --> 00:02:07,130
Speaker 4: Shortly after that, Scottie's like, dad, do you know this

58
00:02:07,190 --> 00:02:09,910
Speaker 4: person named Belle? Now, what would you say about Belle

59
00:02:09,950 --> 00:02:12,130
Speaker 4: to our audience and kind of what she does just

60
00:02:12,169 --> 00:02:13,810
Speaker 4: to give them a sense of why it's important to

61
00:02:13,850 --> 00:02:14,850
Speaker 4: understand what she's doing?

62
00:02:14,930 --> 00:02:16,190
Speaker 2: I remember the first time that I saw you is

63
00:02:16,230 --> 00:02:18,070
Speaker 2: probably a couple months ago. And I remember I was like,

64
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,340
Speaker 2: who's this young girl? Just honestly, I was like dunking

65
00:02:20,380 --> 00:02:21,859
Speaker 2: on these Muslims out in the street. I was like,

66
00:02:22,060 --> 00:02:24,580
Speaker 2: who is this? But she had a different like demeanor

67
00:02:24,620 --> 00:02:27,399
Speaker 2: about herself. I could tell she actually loved the people

68
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 2: that you were you were talking towards. I think on

69
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,570
Speaker 2: social media sometimes. You see people and I'm like, yeah,

70
00:02:31,590 --> 00:02:33,170
Speaker 2: they're just trying to get a clickbait. But the way

71
00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:34,770
Speaker 2: that I was watching you, I was like, I actually

72
00:02:34,810 --> 00:02:37,050
Speaker 2: can tell you actually love the person that you're talking to.

73
00:02:37,350 --> 00:02:38,810
Speaker 2: And that really attracted me. I was like, man, I

74
00:02:39,180 --> 00:02:40,640
Speaker 2: want to know her and I got to get to

75
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:41,700
Speaker 2: have a conversation with her.

76
00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,320
Speaker 3: So I love that. You two both represent. You're 22.

77
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:45,440
Speaker 3: You're 21.

78
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:49,110
Speaker 4: There's a number of young– up and coming apologists and

79
00:02:49,150 --> 00:02:53,090
Speaker 4: evangelists using social media well. Now there's some who I

80
00:02:53,130 --> 00:02:55,669
Speaker 4: would say aren't using it well, but we won't name

81
00:02:55,850 --> 00:02:58,730
Speaker 4: anybody here. That's not the point. And so someone who

82
00:02:58,750 --> 00:03:01,239
Speaker 4: turned 50 recently, I want to learn from you. I

83
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 4: want to encourage you. I want to kind of mentor

84
00:03:03,060 --> 00:03:04,320
Speaker 4: and help you along the way, but I want our

85
00:03:04,460 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 4: audience to get an insight into what you do and

86
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,760
Speaker 4: why you do it. But first, maybe just tell us

87
00:03:09,139 --> 00:03:11,080
Speaker 4: your story. Did you grow up in a Christian home?

88
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,720
Speaker 4: Did you have a conversion to faith? What's your testimony

89
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:15,780
Speaker 4: to use Christian jargon?

90
00:03:16,260 --> 00:03:20,640
Speaker 1: Yes. So I have to start in my family. My

91
00:03:20,740 --> 00:03:22,380
Speaker 1: dad actually grew up as a missionary kid. So my

92
00:03:22,419 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 1: grandpa is actually a very well-known pastor in Taiwan. So

93
00:03:26,340 --> 00:03:28,239
Speaker 1: if you go to any church in Taiwan, they'll probably

94
00:03:28,260 --> 00:03:33,240
Speaker 1: know Pastor Adam Liu. And my dad... Raised us, me

95
00:03:33,260 --> 00:03:36,820
Speaker 1: and my brothers, in the church. And it was... We

96
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 1: had the gospel literally every single Sunday. I grew up

97
00:03:39,060 --> 00:03:42,390
Speaker 1: in the church. But around, I would say, middle school

98
00:03:42,410 --> 00:03:44,510
Speaker 1: to high school, I went to a public school. And

99
00:03:44,550 --> 00:03:46,950
Speaker 1: I got with the wrong crowd. I also, growing up,

100
00:03:47,070 --> 00:03:50,770
Speaker 1: I always wanted to be... I was never... I never

101
00:03:50,790 --> 00:03:53,290
Speaker 1: thought I was a boy. I was very masculine. Hung

102
00:03:53,310 --> 00:03:55,810
Speaker 1: out with a ton of boys. And very formative years,

103
00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:56,660
Speaker 1: especially in elementary.

104
00:03:56,740 --> 00:03:58,780
Speaker 3: Like tomboy, to use an old term. Very, very tomboy.

105
00:03:58,800 --> 00:03:58,900
Speaker 2: And.

106
00:04:00,510 --> 00:04:03,450
Speaker 1: My relationship with my parents actually has been really redemptive,

107
00:04:03,490 --> 00:04:05,450
Speaker 1: but especially growing up and in high school, I had

108
00:04:05,470 --> 00:04:08,010
Speaker 1: a really terrible relationship with my own mother. And I

109
00:04:08,050 --> 00:04:11,190
Speaker 1: never got this nurturing feel of a feminine figure in

110
00:04:11,210 --> 00:04:13,430
Speaker 1: my life. And so anytime I would go into a

111
00:04:13,490 --> 00:04:17,090
Speaker 1: space with any older women, could be like two years older,

112
00:04:17,110 --> 00:04:20,020
Speaker 1: could be a cousin or like a TA, anything, I

113
00:04:20,060 --> 00:04:22,440
Speaker 1: would kind of cling on to them. I was like, okay,

114
00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,700
Speaker 1: like I really want your approval. And this like troubled

115
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:25,920
Speaker 1: me growing up. I was like, why do I care

116
00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: so much about female approvals? And I didn't realize it

117
00:04:28,860 --> 00:04:30,799
Speaker 1: was because of the relationship with my mother and et cetera.

118
00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,560
Speaker 1: I also was abused by a few men in my

119
00:04:33,620 --> 00:04:36,260
Speaker 1: life from a young age. And also going into high school,

120
00:04:36,779 --> 00:04:39,970
Speaker 1: I was also assaulted in high school as well. And

121
00:04:40,610 --> 00:04:43,470
Speaker 1: after that, I just had this really deep hatred for men.

122
00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:45,169
Speaker 1: And I also felt like I had to compete with

123
00:04:45,650 --> 00:04:49,530
Speaker 1: guys as well. I love basketball. Let's go.

124
00:04:49,589 --> 00:04:51,510
Speaker 3: Why do I want to stop and talk about that?

125
00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:53,080
Speaker 3: But I won't. Keep going.

126
00:04:53,180 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: I love basketball. I'm like, why do they jump higher,

127
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,620
Speaker 1: run faster, and shoot farther than me? It was so frustrating.

128
00:04:58,660 --> 00:05:00,159
Speaker 1: And so I'm like, I want to be a boy.

129
00:05:00,460 --> 00:05:03,730
Speaker 1: But then I also hate men now. So there was

130
00:05:03,750 --> 00:05:06,750
Speaker 1: this tension. And so I was very confused, not with

131
00:05:06,770 --> 00:05:09,869
Speaker 1: my own gender, but just like, why does gender matter

132
00:05:09,950 --> 00:05:11,750
Speaker 1: and all these things? And so I really wrestled with that.

133
00:05:12,220 --> 00:05:13,320
Speaker 1: But then there was this tension, too, because I would

134
00:05:13,339 --> 00:05:16,020
Speaker 1: be going to church, and then I would read. I

135
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,480
Speaker 1: remember opening up the Bible when I was, I think, 11.

136
00:05:18,460 --> 00:05:20,120
Speaker 1: I read it for the first time. And I started

137
00:05:20,140 --> 00:05:22,980
Speaker 1: in Genesis. By the time I got through Leviticus, my

138
00:05:23,180 --> 00:05:25,960
Speaker 1: brain at the time was like, what a misogynistic piece

139
00:05:26,020 --> 00:05:28,620
Speaker 1: of filth I am reading. I kid you not. You

140
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,060
Speaker 1: can ask my dad and my youth pastor at this time.

141
00:05:30,420 --> 00:05:32,940
Speaker 1: I sat down with them. I, I, I could not

142
00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,170
Speaker 1: have been older than 11, maybe 12. And I asked

143
00:05:36,210 --> 00:05:38,349
Speaker 1: him hard questions. I was like, so Adam gets the

144
00:05:38,370 --> 00:05:40,910
Speaker 1: curse of working for his food, but women get that too.

145
00:05:41,110 --> 00:05:43,969
Speaker 1: Plus we get childbirth and periods. That's not okay. And

146
00:05:44,010 --> 00:05:45,790
Speaker 1: so it was at like the age of 12, I

147
00:05:45,910 --> 00:05:48,810
Speaker 1: was doing this. And so unfortunately during, during high school,

148
00:05:48,830 --> 00:05:52,230
Speaker 1: I definitely deconstructed. And I also became, also got into

149
00:05:52,290 --> 00:05:54,660
Speaker 1: relationship with girls and guys. And it was just, I

150
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,240
Speaker 1: lived a very degenerate life. I was sleeping around with

151
00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,700
Speaker 1: guys and girls and also got into drugs, just a

152
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:00,849
Speaker 1: wrong crowd. And, The whole time, though, I was carrying

153
00:06:00,870 --> 00:06:03,570
Speaker 1: a lot of shame because I hated myself so much.

154
00:06:03,870 --> 00:06:06,830
Speaker 1: And I knew that same-sex relationships was wrong in the

155
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,040
Speaker 1: eyes of God. And so that kind of pushed me

156
00:06:09,100 --> 00:06:11,440
Speaker 1: towards atheism. But it was kind of weird because I'd

157
00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:15,720
Speaker 1: never understood creation and science and how it marries the Bible.

158
00:06:15,940 --> 00:06:17,660
Speaker 1: And then I also just hated God, too. So I

159
00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,660
Speaker 1: wasn't an atheist. If I hated God, I'm not sure.

160
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,310
Speaker 1: It was very all very complicated. But. and also there

161
00:06:24,350 --> 00:06:27,410
Speaker 1: were some spiritual mentors in my life that I think

162
00:06:27,430 --> 00:06:29,430
Speaker 1: they just weren't equipped to deal with what was going

163
00:06:29,550 --> 00:06:32,870
Speaker 1: on and I was told some very damaging narratives I

164
00:06:32,910 --> 00:06:37,250
Speaker 1: also was called slurs I won't say on screen but

165
00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:40,670
Speaker 1: that F word and the other T word that's usually

166
00:06:40,690 --> 00:06:44,000
Speaker 1: geared to the LGBTQ community in Christian circles and so

167
00:06:44,010 --> 00:06:46,180
Speaker 1: it was just very damaging so my view of God

168
00:06:46,380 --> 00:06:49,720
Speaker 1: was just extremely skewed and I was like okay I

169
00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:51,920
Speaker 1: hate myself and God must hate me too and so

170
00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,020
Speaker 1: I also just fell into a lot of self-harm. I

171
00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,020
Speaker 1: would cut myself all the time. I would burn myself

172
00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:57,640
Speaker 1: with a lighter, and it was just really bad. I

173
00:06:57,660 --> 00:06:59,710
Speaker 1: also think I had, I don't think I was ever,

174
00:06:59,850 --> 00:07:01,670
Speaker 1: I had mental issues, but I definitely had anger issues.

175
00:07:01,690 --> 00:07:03,930
Speaker 1: I would get into fights with my parents. And then

176
00:07:04,110 --> 00:07:06,370
Speaker 1: it would just go back into harming myself. I would

177
00:07:06,390 --> 00:07:07,849
Speaker 1: bang my head on the wall. So it was just

178
00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:08,330
Speaker 1: a mess.

179
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:09,940
Speaker 3: Like physically. Physically, yeah.

180
00:07:10,180 --> 00:07:12,180
Speaker 1: It was really bad. And I was just in so

181
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,000
Speaker 1: much pain. I was very self-righteous. I was instigating fights

182
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,820
Speaker 1: at school, all these things. I was selling drugs at school.

183
00:07:17,380 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 1: And so it was just a mess of things. And

184
00:07:20,260 --> 00:07:22,600
Speaker 1: I remember telling God, I was like, okay, after high school,

185
00:07:22,620 --> 00:07:24,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to lock in. I'm not going to pursue

186
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,640
Speaker 1: relationships with girls. And so at that point, I was like, well,

187
00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:27,930
Speaker 1: it doesn't even matter. So I'm not even going to

188
00:07:27,940 --> 00:07:30,050
Speaker 1: get into a serious relationship with a girl. So I

189
00:07:30,110 --> 00:07:31,870
Speaker 1: was kind of just messing around with guys and girls both.

190
00:07:32,510 --> 00:07:32,710
Speaker 2: But then.

191
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: Well, one thing came to the next. There was this

192
00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,340
Speaker 1: one girl that we really formed a deep emotional tie.

193
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,100
Speaker 1: Trauma bonded through a lot of things. And I was like, OK, well,

194
00:07:40,140 --> 00:07:42,960
Speaker 1: now I don't know what to do because I'm about

195
00:07:42,980 --> 00:07:45,280
Speaker 1: to graduate soon. And I put her through a lot

196
00:07:45,380 --> 00:07:47,940
Speaker 1: because I was trying to kind of ruin our relationship.

197
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 1: So just so much hurt and trauma kind of, you know,

198
00:07:52,550 --> 00:07:54,750
Speaker 1: swirled into each other. And I kind of gave God

199
00:07:54,950 --> 00:07:58,170
Speaker 1: a ultimatum. I said, OK, you have until I graduate

200
00:07:58,190 --> 00:07:59,730
Speaker 1: to show up to me. If not, then I'm just

201
00:07:59,770 --> 00:08:01,150
Speaker 1: going to I'm going to leave. I'm going to turn

202
00:08:01,170 --> 00:08:01,990
Speaker 1: my back on you forever.

203
00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,300
Speaker 3: That's pretty bold. Maybe foolish, but keep going with the story.

204
00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,600
Speaker 1: I should have been struck down immediately with lightning. Oh

205
00:08:08,620 --> 00:08:11,000
Speaker 1: my goodness. And so it gets even more foolish. So

206
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,790
Speaker 1: I remember, so he doesn't show up. So I was like, well,

207
00:08:14,830 --> 00:08:16,670
Speaker 1: you must not care about me and you must hate me.

208
00:08:17,110 --> 00:08:19,150
Speaker 1: And it's really interesting because I would tell the girl,

209
00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:20,330
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, we're both going to burn

210
00:08:20,370 --> 00:08:22,670
Speaker 1: in hell if we do, if we continue this. But

211
00:08:22,810 --> 00:08:24,750
Speaker 1: it was like completely the wrong idea of God, first

212
00:08:24,770 --> 00:08:27,660
Speaker 1: of all. So it was just super, so much tension.

213
00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 1: And so Like a few weeks later, my parents signed

214
00:08:30,660 --> 00:08:34,090
Speaker 1: me up for a 10-day trip to YWAM. I don't

215
00:08:34,110 --> 00:08:34,950
Speaker 1: know if you've heard of YWAM.

216
00:08:35,010 --> 00:08:35,410
Speaker 2: I have, yeah.

217
00:08:35,470 --> 00:08:37,970
Speaker 1: Shout out YWAM ships. I went there for 10 days,

218
00:08:37,990 --> 00:08:41,030
Speaker 1: and I hated it there in the beginning. I was like,

219
00:08:41,290 --> 00:08:44,090
Speaker 1: I hate this place. Why are these people my age,

220
00:08:44,130 --> 00:08:46,050
Speaker 1: but they're in love with God? And they're kind of cool, too.

221
00:08:46,470 --> 00:08:49,840
Speaker 1: So I never had people in my age group or

222
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,060
Speaker 1: demographic who were both cool and loved God. Everyone who

223
00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,380
Speaker 1: kind of loved God were definitely at least 10, 15

224
00:08:55,380 --> 00:08:58,709
Speaker 1: years older than me. And one of my mentors, I

225
00:08:59,010 --> 00:09:01,540
Speaker 1: love her to death, but I think the cultural divide

226
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 1: was just too large. When I was going through all that,

227
00:09:03,420 --> 00:09:05,780
Speaker 1: I couldn't open up to anyone in my family because,

228
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,829
Speaker 1: you know, very conservative family. And I remember one time

229
00:09:10,870 --> 00:09:12,610
Speaker 1: she was like, oh, you go to public school, right?

230
00:09:13,130 --> 00:09:15,530
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking about sending my son to a public school.

231
00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:18,660
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it's like do you know any gay

232
00:09:18,740 --> 00:09:21,800
Speaker 1: or trans people? That's the way she had that conversation

233
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,000
Speaker 1: with me. I was like, yeah, they're all over my school, actually.

234
00:09:25,020 --> 00:09:27,619
Speaker 1: She was like, oh, wow. So that was one of

235
00:09:27,660 --> 00:09:29,780
Speaker 1: the spiritual mentors I had in my life. So clearly

236
00:09:29,830 --> 00:09:32,010
Speaker 1: I couldn't open up. And so the view I had

237
00:09:32,030 --> 00:09:34,170
Speaker 1: of God was just, there was this big gap. And

238
00:09:34,210 --> 00:09:40,429
Speaker 1: so then on day three of this trip, I got

239
00:09:40,470 --> 00:09:44,370
Speaker 1: completely just encountered by his presence. But this was after

240
00:09:44,470 --> 00:09:46,179
Speaker 1: wanting to leave the island because I was so fed

241
00:09:46,220 --> 00:09:47,420
Speaker 1: up with the people here. I was like, God, this

242
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,059
Speaker 1: could be me and you. This could be me and you.

243
00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:51,230
Speaker 1: But you built this wall between us. That was a narrative.

244
00:09:51,230 --> 00:09:53,010
Speaker 3: Sorry, what island? Oh, sorry.

245
00:09:53,010 --> 00:09:54,550
Speaker 1: YWAM Ships is in Hawaii.

246
00:09:54,550 --> 00:09:54,990
Speaker 3: Oh, okay.

247
00:09:55,050 --> 00:09:55,890
Speaker 1: I should have clarified that.

248
00:09:55,929 --> 00:09:56,449
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

249
00:09:57,010 --> 00:09:57,270
Speaker 4: So.

250
00:09:58,050 --> 00:10:02,270
Speaker 1: And then I... On day three, his presence just completely

251
00:10:02,340 --> 00:10:04,060
Speaker 1: wrecked me. I remember I was in that room. And

252
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 1: this was after sitting in a few classes about, like,

253
00:10:06,020 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 1: God's character and nature as well. And there was, like,

254
00:10:08,500 --> 00:10:11,320
Speaker 1: an altar called to surrender. And I remember just falling

255
00:10:11,340 --> 00:10:13,750
Speaker 1: to my knees and I just started bawling my eyes out.

256
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,380
Speaker 1: And I've never cried in his presence like that before.

257
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,319
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna cry... I'm gonna tear up thinking about

258
00:10:18,340 --> 00:10:21,220
Speaker 1: it now, but... I just remember having this dialogue with God.

259
00:10:21,230 --> 00:10:23,130
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, God, like, I don't know who

260
00:10:23,150 --> 00:10:25,319
Speaker 1: you are. Like, I clearly haven't known you my whole life,

261
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:27,380
Speaker 1: but I'm going to trust you.

262
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:28,100
Speaker 3: And so.

263
00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 1: At that moment, I decided that I was going to

264
00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:32,700
Speaker 1: take a gap year and return to the space to

265
00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 1: do a five month discipleship program, which is crazy for

266
00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:38,640
Speaker 1: an Asian because we don't take gap years. Go to college,

267
00:10:38,660 --> 00:10:41,230
Speaker 1: get a degree, be a lawyer, doctor, engineer or somewhere

268
00:10:41,250 --> 00:10:44,530
Speaker 1: in between. OK, so my parents weren't very, very thrilled.

269
00:10:44,730 --> 00:10:47,069
Speaker 1: They were obviously like they didn't know my double life.

270
00:10:47,130 --> 00:10:48,630
Speaker 1: So it wasn't like this was like a huge deal

271
00:10:48,670 --> 00:10:50,750
Speaker 1: to them. But they were like, you know what? Yeah,

272
00:10:50,790 --> 00:10:54,350
Speaker 1: just this is awesome. Go go do it. But again,

273
00:10:54,370 --> 00:10:56,880
Speaker 1: they were not very happy about it. And so. It

274
00:10:56,900 --> 00:10:58,420
Speaker 1: was also very hard for me because I was like, oh,

275
00:10:58,460 --> 00:11:01,450
Speaker 1: college is like everything. I've worked so hard to get

276
00:11:01,470 --> 00:11:03,809
Speaker 1: into a good college. And so that was definitely very

277
00:11:03,850 --> 00:11:06,429
Speaker 1: scary to give up. And this was crazy because the

278
00:11:06,470 --> 00:11:11,170
Speaker 1: day I got there, the first three or four people

279
00:11:11,230 --> 00:11:14,410
Speaker 1: I met, all four of them were girls who had

280
00:11:14,890 --> 00:11:20,609
Speaker 1: a same-sex attraction past. And two of them were able

281
00:11:20,650 --> 00:11:23,590
Speaker 1: to disciple me through the entire thing. And they were

282
00:11:23,630 --> 00:11:25,959
Speaker 1: a lot further on their journey than I was. Because

283
00:11:25,980 --> 00:11:27,420
Speaker 1: I remember going there, I was like, no one's going

284
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,180
Speaker 1: to understand me. Like, how do I? Nobody can understand

285
00:11:30,220 --> 00:11:32,660
Speaker 1: how I'm feeling right now. And so God placed those

286
00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:34,359
Speaker 1: people in my life. And it was just three months

287
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,970
Speaker 1: of intense intimacy with the Lord. A lot of walls

288
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,809
Speaker 1: breaking down. And I remember I would go to class.

289
00:11:40,370 --> 00:11:41,730
Speaker 1: Class was in the morning. I would go to my

290
00:11:41,770 --> 00:11:44,370
Speaker 1: room and just cry. Because I'm like, I keep, I'm

291
00:11:44,410 --> 00:11:46,750
Speaker 1: having dreams with this girl. I can't stop thinking about

292
00:11:46,770 --> 00:11:49,750
Speaker 1: this girl. Like, how, why? And I also struggled. I

293
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:51,650
Speaker 1: was like, why is homosexuality wrong? Like, that was something

294
00:11:51,690 --> 00:11:53,510
Speaker 1: I couldn't understand. That was something I had to trust

295
00:11:53,550 --> 00:11:53,850
Speaker 1: God for.

296
00:11:54,730 --> 00:11:54,850
Speaker 2: And.

297
00:11:55,330 --> 00:11:58,590
Speaker 1: It was just super, super painful. But three months into it,

298
00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 1: he just sanctified me. And the thing is, I went

299
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,330
Speaker 1: into it with a list. I was like, okay, I'm

300
00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:08,530
Speaker 1: going to deal with my homosexuality tendencies. I'm going to

301
00:12:08,570 --> 00:12:10,830
Speaker 1: deal with probably my pornography addiction and my drug addiction.

302
00:12:11,390 --> 00:12:13,390
Speaker 1: And he dealt with all of that. But the list

303
00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:15,709
Speaker 1: was much longer. There were so many other issues I

304
00:12:15,730 --> 00:12:18,050
Speaker 1: didn't realize I had. My anger issues completely healed. The

305
00:12:18,070 --> 00:12:19,610
Speaker 1: way I even talk to my parents completely healed. I mean,

306
00:12:19,630 --> 00:12:21,390
Speaker 1: they'll tell you. I'm a completely different person now when

307
00:12:21,410 --> 00:12:24,809
Speaker 1: I talk to them. Everything in between. And I just

308
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,500
Speaker 1: was wrecked by the love of the Father like I

309
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 1: had never been before in my life. And, of course,

310
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,420
Speaker 1: I stopped harming myself. And I didn't even understand how

311
00:12:31,460 --> 00:12:33,739
Speaker 1: demonic self-harm really was. I was cutting myself days up

312
00:12:33,780 --> 00:12:35,940
Speaker 1: until my baptism because I was, like, frustrated. I didn't

313
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:37,850
Speaker 1: know how to, like. take out my anger and my,

314
00:12:37,929 --> 00:12:39,910
Speaker 1: and my pain. And so there's actually, if you zoom

315
00:12:39,929 --> 00:12:41,750
Speaker 1: in into my baptism photos, there's actually, you can see

316
00:12:41,770 --> 00:12:44,969
Speaker 1: the scars on my body. And so, um, it's, he

317
00:12:45,050 --> 00:12:47,280
Speaker 1: was just super redemptive. And three months later I got

318
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,819
Speaker 1: baptized December 14th, 2023 and gave my life to Jesus

319
00:12:50,860 --> 00:12:53,260
Speaker 1: and followed him ever since. And I still do today.

320
00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:54,439
Speaker 3: Unbelievable.

321
00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:58,069
Speaker 4: So coming up on four years or so now we're

322
00:12:58,090 --> 00:13:01,990
Speaker 4: going to get towards your focus being on Islam, but,

323
00:13:02,570 --> 00:13:04,890
Speaker 4: Is your ministry, and if it's not, why not? Is

324
00:13:04,950 --> 00:13:08,189
Speaker 4: it focused on the LGBTQ community, given that you talked

325
00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:09,829
Speaker 4: about this so much and it was a part.

326
00:13:09,650 --> 00:13:10,270
Speaker 3: Of your story?

327
00:13:10,470 --> 00:13:13,870
Speaker 1: That's an excellent question. So I think in terms of

328
00:13:13,970 --> 00:13:18,929
Speaker 1: discipling the LGBTQ people in my life, I much more

329
00:13:18,970 --> 00:13:22,170
Speaker 1: prefer it in an intimate setting. I think that the

330
00:13:22,309 --> 00:13:25,890
Speaker 1: alarm bell of kind of preaching that it's wrong, I

331
00:13:25,950 --> 00:13:27,550
Speaker 1: think that the body does a great job at that.

332
00:13:28,370 --> 00:13:31,270
Speaker 1: And most of the LGBTQ people in my life already

333
00:13:31,350 --> 00:13:33,090
Speaker 1: know the stance of the church. So I don't feel

334
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:34,790
Speaker 1: like it's my role to have to make that known.

335
00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:37,530
Speaker 1: Of course, I would never say it's correct publicly. I

336
00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:41,470
Speaker 1: just wouldn't make 10 videos kind of rebuking LGBTQ people.

337
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:45,150
Speaker 1: And so I would say that's never something I put

338
00:13:45,190 --> 00:13:48,069
Speaker 1: much of my thought into. So I'm discipling the people

339
00:13:48,090 --> 00:13:51,010
Speaker 1: in my life behind the scenes. And so that's definitely

340
00:13:51,050 --> 00:13:54,050
Speaker 1: not something I ever– well, I will say in the future–

341
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,739
Speaker 1: Wherever the Lord leads, I would like to speak on

342
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,229
Speaker 1: this a lot more. And I know my testimony is

343
00:13:58,250 --> 00:14:00,570
Speaker 1: very powerful. And so I even thought of maybe writing

344
00:14:00,610 --> 00:14:02,790
Speaker 1: a book one day or something to this degree. But

345
00:14:02,990 --> 00:14:05,209
Speaker 1: was the question how I transitioned to kind of dealing

346
00:14:05,230 --> 00:14:05,770
Speaker 1: with Islam?

347
00:14:06,690 --> 00:14:08,470
Speaker 3: We can shift to that. Definitely.

348
00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:10,810
Speaker 4: Yeah. Tell me why your focus– because that doesn't seem

349
00:14:10,830 --> 00:14:11,910
Speaker 4: like it was a part of your past.

350
00:14:12,030 --> 00:14:12,790
Speaker 3: Definitely not.

351
00:14:12,830 --> 00:14:15,550
Speaker 4: Or your story at all. Now, this is kind of

352
00:14:15,570 --> 00:14:17,240
Speaker 4: your primary focus, if I'm not mistaken.

353
00:14:17,250 --> 00:14:18,550
Speaker 3: Is that right? Like 100% Islam?

354
00:14:18,670 --> 00:14:20,270
Speaker 1: I would say like 80%.

355
00:14:20,270 --> 00:14:22,900
Speaker 3: 80%. Okay. So why? What was the interest to that?

356
00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:26,270
Speaker 1: So– I think I need to start with how I

357
00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:27,090
Speaker 1: got into apologetics.

358
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,460
Speaker 3: I love it. You're talking to the right person. Tell me.

359
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 1: So the nature of how my mind worked, I kind

360
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,020
Speaker 1: of touched on this, was I would look at the

361
00:14:35,060 --> 00:14:40,260
Speaker 1: Bible from a 21st century, ex-feminist, very liberal perspective. But now...

362
00:14:40,860 --> 00:14:43,380
Speaker 1: And so that's what really got me to wrestle with

363
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,400
Speaker 1: the scripture. And that's how I kind of got good

364
00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 1: at apologetics because I never learned apologetics to defend the

365
00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,740
Speaker 1: faith truthfully. I did it because I was like, it

366
00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:52,500
Speaker 1: was messing me up in my heart. I was like, oh,

367
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 1: this is hard. Because I just gave my life to

368
00:14:54,620 --> 00:14:56,780
Speaker 1: this guy named Jesus, right? He changed my entire life.

369
00:14:57,260 --> 00:14:59,060
Speaker 1: And now I'm reading the Bible for the first time

370
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,600
Speaker 1: ever with an unbiased lens. And I'm like, okay, but still,

371
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 1: this is hard. I think I'm seeing like genocide passages

372
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,100
Speaker 1: in the Bible. I'm seeing that, like, why do the

373
00:15:07,460 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 1: women get less inheritance? Like things like this. And I

374
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,850
Speaker 1: was like, oh, this is hard. And so it definitely

375
00:15:11,870 --> 00:15:13,130
Speaker 1: shook me a little bit. I mean, it never shook

376
00:15:13,150 --> 00:15:15,170
Speaker 1: my foundation because I knew what I knew what I

377
00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:18,620
Speaker 1: knew about Jesus, but that's how I got so well

378
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:20,400
Speaker 1: versed in it. Cause I had to, I had answers

379
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,320
Speaker 1: that I needed to answer. And, and I also said

380
00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:28,090
Speaker 1: this to Scotty yesterday, but I usually end my testimony

381
00:15:28,110 --> 00:15:30,650
Speaker 1: with this. What am I saying now? You know, as

382
00:15:30,670 --> 00:15:33,250
Speaker 1: an apologist, people ask, what is the best, what is

383
00:15:33,410 --> 00:15:36,550
Speaker 1: the best argument for, for Christ? And I said, it's

384
00:15:36,590 --> 00:15:38,860
Speaker 1: not a book. It's not a line. It's nothing. It's,

385
00:15:40,340 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 1: The evidence is the changed person I am. Because nobody

386
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:45,850
Speaker 1: could have taken that bell and turned it into the

387
00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:48,250
Speaker 1: bell that is sitting in front of you today. Literally

388
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:50,630
Speaker 1: no one. Not a single argument, no book, nothing. Only

389
00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:52,090
Speaker 1: by the power of the Holy Spirit and only by

390
00:15:52,370 --> 00:15:54,450
Speaker 1: the power of the cross. And so, thank God I

391
00:15:54,490 --> 00:15:56,550
Speaker 1: had that foundation. So every time I would look at

392
00:15:57,010 --> 00:15:59,780
Speaker 1: slavery passages which shook me, I knew that. And so

393
00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 1: my footing was good and the answers came. And it

394
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: was beautiful. In terms of Islam.

395
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:06,500
Speaker 4: By the way, before you turn to Islam, you have

396
00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:09,370
Speaker 4: wisdom beyond your years. And what I mean by that

397
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:13,940
Speaker 4: is you met my dad, Scotty's grandpa, last night. He's

398
00:16:13,940 --> 00:16:18,180
Speaker 4: 87 now, but really kind of was a trailblazer in

399
00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:22,100
Speaker 4: apologetics when no one was doing it. On a popular level,

400
00:16:22,220 --> 00:16:24,350
Speaker 4: nobody was doing it, writing the books that he wrote,

401
00:16:24,370 --> 00:16:25,490
Speaker 4: doing the debates that he did.

402
00:16:25,540 --> 00:16:27,410
Speaker 3: I think I could be wrong.

403
00:16:27,550 --> 00:16:30,550
Speaker 4: I thought he said he's had about 200 debates, and

404
00:16:30,590 --> 00:16:34,290
Speaker 4: in every single debate, he would share his testimony.

405
00:16:34,310 --> 00:16:34,830
Speaker 1: Oh, that's beautiful.

406
00:16:34,850 --> 00:16:37,370
Speaker 4: It was always his closing speech, and he would say

407
00:16:37,390 --> 00:16:38,070
Speaker 4: a change to life.

408
00:16:39,740 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 3: Is the most powerful testimony.

409
00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:43,160
Speaker 4: Now, if all we talk about is a changed life, well,

410
00:16:43,180 --> 00:16:45,420
Speaker 4: everybody can talk about how their life was changed. So

411
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:46,900
Speaker 4: we need evidence as well.

412
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:48,020
Speaker 3: But you're right.

413
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,120
Speaker 4: It's like the blind man who says, all I know

414
00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:53,190
Speaker 4: is I was blind, but now I see and Jesus

415
00:16:53,270 --> 00:16:55,970
Speaker 4: changed me. So keep that up. Keep doing it with

416
00:16:56,010 --> 00:16:58,710
Speaker 4: the apologetics. But pick up where you left off on

417
00:16:58,750 --> 00:17:00,630
Speaker 4: why you shifted towards Islam.

418
00:17:00,710 --> 00:17:04,780
Speaker 1: Yeah, so good. So how I shifted towards Islam was

419
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,070
Speaker 1: I saw content of Muslims and Christians debating online. And

420
00:17:09,090 --> 00:17:11,570
Speaker 1: I started to doubt the Trinity. I was like, okay,

421
00:17:12,250 --> 00:17:15,850
Speaker 1: you're right. One plus one plus one is three. Paul

422
00:17:15,869 --> 00:17:18,440
Speaker 1: did come. Maybe Paul did make up the Trinity. Maybe

423
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,380
Speaker 1: Jesus never said worship me. So I was like, okay,

424
00:17:21,740 --> 00:17:23,320
Speaker 1: hold on a second. And I was like, okay, so

425
00:17:23,580 --> 00:17:25,760
Speaker 1: if the Jews have half our scriptures, then why don't

426
00:17:25,780 --> 00:17:27,400
Speaker 1: they believe in the Trinity? So just all these things

427
00:17:27,420 --> 00:17:30,550
Speaker 1: that the Muslims will throw. And so, again, it wasn't,

428
00:17:31,090 --> 00:17:32,730
Speaker 1: I mean, as much as I love the loss, my

429
00:17:32,770 --> 00:17:34,550
Speaker 1: heart for the loss, it was genuinely because I needed

430
00:17:34,590 --> 00:17:36,630
Speaker 1: to figure it out first. And so that is how

431
00:17:36,690 --> 00:17:39,490
Speaker 1: I got into theology. And I was like, okay, let's

432
00:17:39,550 --> 00:17:43,109
Speaker 1: learn the Trinity. Let's learn the basics. And then I

433
00:17:43,369 --> 00:17:45,280
Speaker 1: did begin to engage some Muslims. And in my time

434
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,180
Speaker 1: in YWAM, I also went to some Muslim nations such

435
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,780
Speaker 1: as Egypt and Turkey. And so I did some ministry

436
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,220
Speaker 1: there as well. And it is very different, though, because

437
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,500
Speaker 1: of the language barrier. And it's a lot more of

438
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,980
Speaker 1: the simple gospel there than in the West, where we

439
00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,100
Speaker 1: can engage on a very highly intellectual level, the same language.

440
00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:05,619
Speaker 1: So when I came back last fall, I... I also

441
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,740
Speaker 1: just watched a ton of debate content online between Christians

442
00:18:07,780 --> 00:18:09,960
Speaker 1: and Muslims, so I really got into it there. I

443
00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:12,580
Speaker 1: started witnessing on the Cal State Fullerton campus right when

444
00:18:12,619 --> 00:18:15,940
Speaker 1: I came back, and I ran into several Muslims there.

445
00:18:16,619 --> 00:18:18,800
Speaker 1: There's not that many there, but there definitely were, and

446
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:21,530
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, let's get into this more, and

447
00:18:22,369 --> 00:18:26,869
Speaker 1: I was engaging all faiths. I was talking to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons,

448
00:18:26,890 --> 00:18:28,879
Speaker 1: and I still do. I still try to, but How

449
00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:32,290
Speaker 1: I got so dialed into this was I got connected

450
00:18:32,420 --> 00:18:36,409
Speaker 1: with my now mentor, Pastor Greg. So I got DMs

451
00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:39,609
Speaker 1: all the time on my Instagram and I barely check them.

452
00:18:40,390 --> 00:18:41,929
Speaker 1: And he had like at this time, he only had

453
00:18:41,950 --> 00:18:43,530
Speaker 1: like he had like less than a thousand followers, just

454
00:18:43,550 --> 00:18:45,399
Speaker 1: like a like a middle aged white man. And I

455
00:18:45,390 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 1: was like, there's no reason for me to respond to him.

456
00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:49,479
Speaker 1: But I clicked on his profile and it was like

457
00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:52,760
Speaker 1: followed by Wesley Huff. I was like, oh, OK. So

458
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:53,879
Speaker 1: I gave him my time of day because he had

459
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:55,199
Speaker 1: DMed me and just like, hey, like I have some

460
00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:57,320
Speaker 1: resources on Islam. I would love to train you. And

461
00:18:57,340 --> 00:18:59,440
Speaker 1: then so that's the only reason I responded.

462
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,760
Speaker 3: So why didn't you respond to my DMs then? I'm kidding.

463
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,980
Speaker 3: I'm kidding. I didn't send you any. He did not.

464
00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:06,959
Speaker 1: I would have, by the way.

465
00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:07,899
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding.

466
00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:10,729
Speaker 1: Oh, that's so funny. So, yeah, I hopped on like

467
00:19:10,770 --> 00:19:13,030
Speaker 1: a six-hour phone call with him. And he just gave

468
00:19:13,109 --> 00:19:16,130
Speaker 1: me like tons of stuff. And it turns out he

469
00:19:16,290 --> 00:19:19,350
Speaker 1: and my other mentor, Alex Kremley, he's about– Alex Kremley

470
00:19:19,369 --> 00:19:21,939
Speaker 1: is about 60 years old now. Insanely smart guy. They

471
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,340
Speaker 1: had been doing– research on islam for for decades and

472
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 1: it wasn't just research it was research made to actually

473
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,399
Speaker 1: work so they built the system we call it the

474
00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,869
Speaker 1: master key and it systematically deconstructs islam and reconstructs and

475
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,169
Speaker 1: so our deconstruction process it's made to it's made so

476
00:19:40,210 --> 00:19:43,190
Speaker 1: that it can be reconstructed into christ so we don't

477
00:19:43,230 --> 00:19:46,410
Speaker 1: believe oh sorry mike we don't believe in making muslims

478
00:19:46,590 --> 00:19:48,770
Speaker 1: atheists or new age or zoroastrian because they are they're

479
00:19:48,780 --> 00:19:51,740
Speaker 1: become atheists. We only rip them out in a way

480
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,439
Speaker 1: where you can build it back into Christ. And so

481
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,100
Speaker 1: I'll kind of give you a little bit of the

482
00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 1: master key in a second. But I was like, oh

483
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,290
Speaker 1: my gosh, like this is incredible. And truth be told,

484
00:20:02,530 --> 00:20:05,990
Speaker 1: the easiest, most viral clip is running Muhammad married a

485
00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:08,810
Speaker 1: six-year-old and had sex with her when she was nine.

486
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 1: And those clips do amazing. Or even just like, oh,

487
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,330
Speaker 1: Muhammad had this. And so I was kind of wrestling

488
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:17,210
Speaker 1: because I was like, okay, but these clips do so well.

489
00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:20,950
Speaker 1: And they're so easy. And the master key is a

490
00:20:20,990 --> 00:20:23,149
Speaker 1: lot more kind of a slow burn rather than it

491
00:20:23,210 --> 00:20:25,050
Speaker 1: is like a flashy thing. And there's still elements I

492
00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:26,050
Speaker 1: take to make it flashy.

493
00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:28,170
Speaker 2: You had shared that with me when I actually, I

494
00:20:28,210 --> 00:20:30,250
Speaker 2: had a phone call with Greg and with Pavel as well,

495
00:20:30,350 --> 00:20:31,570
Speaker 2: part of your ministry. And that was one of the

496
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:33,070
Speaker 2: things that they were walking me through. And I know

497
00:20:33,090 --> 00:20:35,060
Speaker 2: that you had said that you're like, yeah, we can run,

498
00:20:35,340 --> 00:20:37,780
Speaker 2: you know, things about Muhammad Mary and a six-year-old, nine-year-old Aisha.

499
00:20:37,820 --> 00:20:40,179
Speaker 3: But We don't actually need to. And you had said

500
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 3: something to me.

501
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,959
Speaker 2: You said most Muslims get turned off and they get

502
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 2: on the defensive the second you start talking about that

503
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,850
Speaker 2: because it comes across to them that you're disrespecting the prophet.

504
00:20:48,910 --> 00:20:50,530
Speaker 2: And so that's why you're like, no, we don't actually

505
00:20:50,550 --> 00:20:52,310
Speaker 2: even have to go there. Not that those things aren't

506
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:54,970
Speaker 2: true because they are, but we can actually look at

507
00:20:55,010 --> 00:20:56,530
Speaker 2: their scriptures. And I like how you said you can

508
00:20:56,609 --> 00:20:59,250
Speaker 2: deconstruct it and build that up into Christ. And so

509
00:20:59,550 --> 00:21:01,490
Speaker 2: I would love to get into the master key and

510
00:21:01,570 --> 00:21:02,230
Speaker 2: talk about that.

511
00:21:02,619 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 4: I want to make a point for the audience that's

512
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,109
Speaker 4: important is there's a difference between trying to build a

513
00:21:07,170 --> 00:21:11,359
Speaker 4: platform for clicks and views and having a ministry that says,

514
00:21:11,380 --> 00:21:16,100
Speaker 4: I really want to strengthen believers and reach non-believers. Now,

515
00:21:16,180 --> 00:21:19,540
Speaker 4: when those intersect together, that's ideal. I'm like, this is

516
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,959
Speaker 4: great content. People watch it and it will help. It's

517
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,400
Speaker 4: when you go, oh, this is views, but maybe I'm

518
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,970
Speaker 4: offending Muslims unnecessarily in this context. Maybe I'm not bridging

519
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 4: them to Christ. that I think Christians should say, time out.

520
00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:36,500
Speaker 4: Why am I posting that? What game am I playing?

521
00:21:36,540 --> 00:21:40,100
Speaker 4: What is this about? That's a question not enough people ask.

522
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:40,909
Speaker 3: So I appreciate it.

523
00:21:41,050 --> 00:21:44,410
Speaker 4: Early on, you're asking that question, which is great.

524
00:21:44,470 --> 00:21:45,649
Speaker 3: So let's get into it.

525
00:21:45,710 --> 00:21:48,210
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. So to understand the Master Key,

526
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:51,470
Speaker 1: first and foremost, is actually that the birth of the

527
00:21:51,490 --> 00:21:55,290
Speaker 1: Master Key happened in the streets of Toronto, where Alex,

528
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 1: for 25 years, tested it on Muslims. So this guy's

529
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,540
Speaker 1: a mechanical engineer, an international chess champion, and He served

530
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,459
Speaker 1: on like the KGB, like border first and Azerbaijan. So

531
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 1: this guy's imagine his brain for a second.

532
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 3: Okay.

533
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,770
Speaker 1: So he's like mechanical engineering is all about troubleshooting. So

534
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:12,350
Speaker 1: he ran it for 25 years and now that's what

535
00:22:12,369 --> 00:22:14,450
Speaker 1: the master key is. It's a script that has been troubleshooted.

536
00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:17,090
Speaker 1: He knows every objection that could possibly ever happen. Not

537
00:22:17,109 --> 00:22:18,670
Speaker 1: just every objection and not just how to be right,

538
00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:21,330
Speaker 1: but how to be persuasive. So what is persuasive? First,

539
00:22:21,350 --> 00:22:26,750
Speaker 1: we have to understand some things about Islamic theology. There's

540
00:22:26,790 --> 00:22:31,450
Speaker 1: actually a lot of, So they do claim to affirm

541
00:22:31,490 --> 00:22:34,229
Speaker 1: the previous scriptures, including the Torah and the Injeolmo. We'll

542
00:22:34,260 --> 00:22:35,179
Speaker 1: talk about that in a second. I want to focus

543
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 1: on the Torah right now. But their theology, one thing

544
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:40,659
Speaker 1: you need to know is that they don't believe in

545
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,220
Speaker 1: original sin. So everyone is born sinless. And death isn't

546
00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: something to be saved from. And also the fall happened

547
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: in heaven. Adam and Eve were in heaven. And another

548
00:22:51,540 --> 00:22:55,060
Speaker 1: thing is death is a marker for sin. The end

549
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: of a test. Life is a test. Death ends that test.

550
00:22:58,619 --> 00:22:59,740
Speaker 1: So do you see how there's no need for a

551
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 1: savior because death never entered? So they deny the doctrine

552
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 1: of original sin, number one. Number two, they deny the

553
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 1: need for blood atonement. There's no blood atonement. There's a

554
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: story of Adam in the Quran. And after the fall,

555
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,340
Speaker 1: he says, Allah gives him a repentance prayer. So he

556
00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: verbally atones for his sin. You don't need the animal

557
00:23:18,940 --> 00:23:21,090
Speaker 1: that was slaughtered to cover Adam and Eve like we

558
00:23:21,109 --> 00:23:25,620
Speaker 1: have in our Torah. Third, they deny theophanies. There's no— not

559
00:23:25,060 --> 00:23:28,260
Speaker 1: only the— of course they deny the Incarnation, but they already

560
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: deny the theophanies, even though.

561
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,700
Speaker 3: They— Define theophany.

562
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: Yes, the theophany is a manifestation of God in a

563
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,219
Speaker 1: physical form, usually a man form. And so they deny that.

564
00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:40,310
Speaker 1: God would never, ever enter creation or take upon any

565
00:23:40,369 --> 00:23:41,730
Speaker 1: type of creative.

566
00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:48,690
Speaker 4: Nature. So a theophany could be in Genesis 32 when

567
00:23:48,750 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 4: God wrestles with Jacob— Or in the fire in Daniel,

568
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,379
Speaker 4: who's the fourth man, like a son of man in

569
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 4: the fire.

570
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,420
Speaker 3: Like that's a theophany of God showing up. That's right.

571
00:23:58,740 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 3: That's what they deny. That's your point, just to be clear. Okay,

572
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:01,699
Speaker 3: keep going.

573
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,050
Speaker 1: I only bring that up because, well, they didn't deny

574
00:24:04,609 --> 00:24:07,250
Speaker 1: any of that in the first place. But the funny

575
00:24:07,270 --> 00:24:09,429
Speaker 1: thing is that that is taught in the Torah. But

576
00:24:09,470 --> 00:24:11,230
Speaker 1: they deny it even though the Torah is part of

577
00:24:11,390 --> 00:24:15,110
Speaker 1: their scriptures. So that's very clear. And then they also

578
00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:18,670
Speaker 1: have a Messiah. Jesus is the Messiah in Islam. He's

579
00:24:18,690 --> 00:24:20,510
Speaker 1: not coming to die. If you ask them what's the

580
00:24:20,550 --> 00:24:22,310
Speaker 1: role of the Messiah, they can't really tell you. They

581
00:24:22,510 --> 00:24:24,070
Speaker 1: only can tell you what he's not, but they won't

582
00:24:24,090 --> 00:24:24,609
Speaker 1: tell you what he is.

583
00:24:25,609 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 3: Same word, very different meaning. Exactly.

584
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: So what he's not is he's not coming to suffer

585
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,939
Speaker 1: and serve. And so those are things that we have

586
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,619
Speaker 1: to understand about the Quran because that's what the Quran teaches.

587
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: And so if you have all these things here, when

588
00:24:38,660 --> 00:24:41,750
Speaker 1: you throw in the gospel of Jesus, that's literally contradictory

589
00:24:42,130 --> 00:24:45,050
Speaker 1: to every single aspect of the Messiah. And so until

590
00:24:45,070 --> 00:24:46,770
Speaker 1: we can get this out of the way, the gospel

591
00:24:46,830 --> 00:24:49,540
Speaker 1: is never going to hit them. And what we need

592
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 1: to do is we actually have to deconstruct the source.

593
00:24:51,619 --> 00:24:55,700
Speaker 1: And that's another thing too. People like to attack Islam politically, morally,

594
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: all these– but that's very, very important. But that just

595
00:24:59,420 --> 00:25:01,619
Speaker 1: comes from here. So if we can just remove the source,

596
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,670
Speaker 1: then their morals and their politics are also going to change.

597
00:25:03,690 --> 00:25:04,710
Speaker 1: We replace it with the Bible instead.

598
00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:07,710
Speaker 4: Before we come to this, can I jump in? So

599
00:25:07,730 --> 00:25:12,790
Speaker 4: you've mentioned some theological differences or barriers. Like there's no theophanies,

600
00:25:12,869 --> 00:25:13,410
Speaker 4: for example.

601
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:16,300
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. What about cultural barriers?

602
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,220
Speaker 4: Like oftentimes when I speak to Muslims, there's a sense

603
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,330
Speaker 4: of like, if God's a father and the son, there's

604
00:25:21,369 --> 00:25:26,090
Speaker 4: this very physical human sense of like father and son,

605
00:25:26,609 --> 00:25:28,490
Speaker 4: not what the Bible means.

606
00:25:28,890 --> 00:25:29,929
Speaker 3: There's a deep kind of.

607
00:25:29,890 --> 00:25:34,859
Speaker 4: Honor, shame kind of culture that's bedded within it. There's,

608
00:25:35,340 --> 00:25:38,300
Speaker 4: I mean, everybody's religion plays a role of their identity,

609
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 4: but In Islam, it seems so deep that there's so

610
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 4: many non-Muslims Muslims who will just defend it because that's

611
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,990
Speaker 4: their heritage and that's their team. Like, are there other

612
00:25:50,170 --> 00:25:53,810
Speaker 4: cultural barriers besides theological ones that come into play? And

613
00:25:53,869 --> 00:25:56,510
Speaker 4: how big are those compared to the theological ones?

614
00:25:56,670 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. I think that the cultural one is

615
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:03,609
Speaker 1: there for certain. And it also depends where they are,

616
00:26:03,630 --> 00:26:05,170
Speaker 1: if they're in the West or if they're in the East.

617
00:26:05,380 --> 00:26:08,179
Speaker 3: Great point. And where in the East? Exactly.

618
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,100
Speaker 1: But even in the West, it's deeply rooted in their culture.

619
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: And they are quite literally picking up a massive cross.

620
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:17,660
Speaker 1: That is what it means to pick up a cross,

621
00:26:17,700 --> 00:26:19,609
Speaker 1: to follow Jesus, because they're turning back to their families,

622
00:26:19,770 --> 00:26:23,610
Speaker 1: oftentimes their jobs, their community, and oftentimes even danger as well.

623
00:26:23,650 --> 00:26:23,869
Speaker 2: And so.

624
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,619
Speaker 1: I think that– I wouldn't say one's more important. One

625
00:26:28,660 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: has a bigger barrier than the other. I think both

626
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,020
Speaker 1: are huge. However, what I found, and I can share

627
00:26:33,220 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: a few testimonies afterwards of Muslims I've personally gotten the

628
00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: privilege to lead to Christ, that if you deal with

629
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,699
Speaker 1: the Quran and you replace it with the Bible, the

630
00:26:42,740 --> 00:26:46,170
Speaker 1: cultural barrier doesn't matter. They just want Jesus. And so

631
00:26:46,250 --> 00:26:47,389
Speaker 1: that's why I really want to focus on– All right,

632
00:26:47,410 --> 00:26:50,369
Speaker 1: let's do it. So with that being said, all of

633
00:26:50,410 --> 00:26:54,410
Speaker 1: those four things I just mentioned– Guess what other religion

634
00:26:55,310 --> 00:26:57,770
Speaker 1: holds to this? These four things.

635
00:26:57,869 --> 00:26:58,930
Speaker 3: We talked about the Judaism.

636
00:26:59,150 --> 00:26:59,770
Speaker 1: Yeah, rabbinical Judaism.

637
00:26:59,790 --> 00:27:01,300
Speaker 3: Yeah, rabbinical Judaism. We talked about this yesterday.

638
00:27:01,430 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: So I want to steel man the rabbinical position because

639
00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: they're very complicated and the rabbis disagree with everything. But

640
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,460
Speaker 1: at the bottom line, there's no original sin. They deny

641
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: the need for blood atonement. It's verbal atonement now, just

642
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,490
Speaker 1: like Adam verbally atoned in the Quran. They deny the

643
00:27:17,609 --> 00:27:19,790
Speaker 1: theophanies in the Torah, even though we have the same Torah.

644
00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:22,950
Speaker 1: in the synagogues and our churches. And then the Messiah,

645
00:27:23,150 --> 00:27:26,630
Speaker 1: they wouldn't teach that he's coming to die. And so

646
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:30,290
Speaker 1: with that being said, what is going on here? Islam

647
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:35,290
Speaker 1: is a rabbinical heresy. It's an offshoot of rabbinical Judaism

648
00:27:35,450 --> 00:27:38,300
Speaker 1: and not necessarily a copy of Christianity. So people think

649
00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:40,939
Speaker 1: that Islam copies Christianity, which is true. So that's why

650
00:27:40,980 --> 00:27:42,180
Speaker 1: I want to get into the structure of the Quran.

651
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: The Quran is about 6,000 verses in total. About 1%

652
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,419
Speaker 1: of those verses parallel the New Testament.

653
00:27:47,810 --> 00:27:50,010
Speaker 3: Well, 16 percent. I'm sorry. I've got to jump in

654
00:27:50,030 --> 00:27:50,790
Speaker 3: here because I'm tracking.

655
00:27:50,869 --> 00:27:55,740
Speaker 4: So I theologically agree with rabbinical Judaism, the connection that

656
00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 4: you made. But historically and geographically, out of which Islam

657
00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:05,419
Speaker 4: emerged is such a polytheistic pagan culture as well, that

658
00:28:05,460 --> 00:28:08,590
Speaker 4: that's a piece of the story of where Islam came from.

659
00:28:08,609 --> 00:28:13,530
Speaker 1: I would actually say proportionally it's a lot more rooted

660
00:28:13,550 --> 00:28:16,070
Speaker 1: in rabbinical Judaism than it is paganism. I say that

661
00:28:16,109 --> 00:28:18,659
Speaker 1: because of the structure of the Koran. And so that's

662
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: what I was going to say is the Quran is

663
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: about 1% parallel in its verses to the New Testament.

664
00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:28,700
Speaker 1: But it's actually 16% of the entire Quran is specifically

665
00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: about the Old Testament stories.

666
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,709
Speaker 3: 16, you said? 16%. So 1% new, 16% old.

667
00:28:36,030 --> 00:28:39,570
Speaker 1: And so there's about 1,100 verses. There's 6,000 verses. 1,100

668
00:28:39,570 --> 00:28:43,470
Speaker 1: of those verses is found in the Old Testament. Jesus

669
00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:47,220
Speaker 1: is the sixth most mentioned Bible character. Sorry, seventh most

670
00:28:47,260 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: mentioned Bible character. Guess who the first is.

671
00:28:50,740 --> 00:28:53,100
Speaker 3: Is it Adam or Moses?

672
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: So who's the most important character in rabbinical Judaism?

673
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,220
Speaker 3: Moses.

674
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: Okay, who's the second most important in rabbinical Judaism?

675
00:28:57,740 --> 00:28:58,100
Speaker 3: Abraham.

676
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: Okay, so Abraham's the second most mentioned in the Quran. Guys,

677
00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:02,770
Speaker 1: a lot is more mentioned in the Quran than Jesus is.

678
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:05,190
Speaker 1: Think about that for a second. Let that sink in.

679
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:08,750
Speaker 1: So all of these, what's going on here? I'm not

680
00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:11,570
Speaker 1: saying that Muslims are Jews. Far from it. But if

681
00:29:11,610 --> 00:29:14,370
Speaker 1: we're going to be persuasive... We want to really understand

682
00:29:14,430 --> 00:29:17,390
Speaker 1: where the Quran comes from. Then with all these parallels,

683
00:29:17,530 --> 00:29:20,420
Speaker 1: it's almost as if we're talking to a rabbinical Jew, almost.

684
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: And so when we actually go talk to a rabbinical Jew,

685
00:29:22,980 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: are we going to open up the New Testament and

686
00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: shove it in their face? And be like, look at Jesus. No,

687
00:29:26,060 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: what are we going to do? We're going to go

688
00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: to the Old Testament. So that is basically the master key.

689
00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:33,130
Speaker 1: And so I'll get into this right now. So there's

690
00:29:33,130 --> 00:29:38,260
Speaker 1: two verses we use. Actually, I'll memorize, but it's Surah 1094.

691
00:29:38,260 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: It talks about the previous stories. It says, if you

692
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: are in doubt, it's talking about the audience of Muhammad.

693
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,290
Speaker 1: If you are in doubt of these stories, then go

694
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:48,770
Speaker 1: ask the people who read the scripture before you. And

695
00:29:48,790 --> 00:29:50,550
Speaker 1: if you look at the context of that verse, this

696
00:29:50,570 --> 00:29:52,450
Speaker 1: is actually the most taken out of context verse in

697
00:29:52,650 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: all of apologetics. right now, towards Muslims, they say that

698
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,219
Speaker 1: that is talking about the entire Bible. I would disagree,

699
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:05,010
Speaker 1: because the context shows stories of Moses, Abraham, sorry, not Abraham, Moses, Noah, Aaron,

700
00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:08,050
Speaker 1: and Pharaoh, and settling the children in their blessed land.

701
00:30:08,620 --> 00:30:09,690
Speaker 1: Where are all those stories found?

702
00:30:09,850 --> 00:30:11,930
Speaker 4: So there's not a single reference in the context of

703
00:30:11,950 --> 00:30:12,930
Speaker 4: that to the New Testament.

704
00:30:13,010 --> 00:30:13,650
Speaker 1: In that verse?

705
00:30:13,790 --> 00:30:13,930
Speaker 3: No.

706
00:30:14,110 --> 00:30:17,410
Speaker 1: Not for that specific verse. And so, it's talking about,

707
00:30:17,490 --> 00:30:20,870
Speaker 1: but it makes a very very clear claim about the stories.

708
00:30:20,930 --> 00:30:23,230
Speaker 1: So those stories are all found in the Torah. Excuse me.

709
00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:26,630
Speaker 1: All found in the Torah. And then also in Surah 12,

710
00:30:26,630 --> 00:30:32,020
Speaker 1: verse 111, this is the chapter of Joseph. It says

711
00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:36,180
Speaker 1: that this is a detailed, it's a confirmation of the

712
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,220
Speaker 1: previous scriptures and a detailed confirmation of it. And the

713
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: story of Joseph is 98 verses in the Quran. And

714
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: that verse that I just read ends those 98 or

715
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:54,290
Speaker 1: so verses of Joseph's story in detail. So, How many contradictions,

716
00:30:54,490 --> 00:30:57,390
Speaker 1: irreconcilable differences, do you think are in those 98 verses

717
00:30:57,610 --> 00:31:01,670
Speaker 1: and our Torah? Give a guess. There's 98 verses.

718
00:31:01,830 --> 00:31:06,870
Speaker 3: Less than 10? I honestly don't even have a clue.

719
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:06,930
Speaker 1: 944.

720
00:31:06,910 --> 00:31:12,910
Speaker 3: Okay, I was way off. You went the opposite direction.

721
00:31:12,930 --> 00:31:13,830
Speaker 3: I didn't even have a guess.

722
00:31:14,070 --> 00:31:17,350
Speaker 1: And the miracle of the Quran is that Muhammad was illiterate,

723
00:31:17,470 --> 00:31:20,050
Speaker 1: but he got all these stories correct. Now they'll rebut

724
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:22,290
Speaker 1: with certain things, but that is the reality of what

725
00:31:22,330 --> 00:31:22,970
Speaker 1: the Quran is claiming.

726
00:31:23,950 --> 00:31:24,950
Speaker 3: Like an example.

727
00:31:25,030 --> 00:31:26,820
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me show you. That's exactly what I'm going to.

728
00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:28,450
Speaker 3: Do right now.

729
00:31:28,450 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 4: 900 out of 98 verses. And they call verses ayahs,

730
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,020
Speaker 4: which are rooted in surahs.

731
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:36,740
Speaker 1: Surah is a chapter.

732
00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 4: A chapter, and then, right, what we would call a

733
00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 4: chapter in the Bible. That's basically 10 per verse, if

734
00:31:44,100 --> 00:31:44,740
Speaker 4: I'm doing the math.

735
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,570
Speaker 1: It's pretty bad. Give us one or two that's... So

736
00:31:47,610 --> 00:31:50,380
Speaker 1: how old was Joseph in the Bible when he got

737
00:31:50,690 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: thrown into the well and sent to Egypt?

738
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:54,500
Speaker 3: He was young. I don't know the exact age, but

739
00:31:54,540 --> 00:31:56,620
Speaker 3: he was young. I don't remember his exact age.

740
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,220
Speaker 1: Okay, it was 17. So the Bible actually specifically says

741
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: he was 17. In the Quran, he has to be

742
00:32:01,300 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: babysat by his brothers. In the Torah, he's going miles

743
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: and miles with sheep by himself to find his brothers.

744
00:32:09,310 --> 00:32:12,850
Speaker 1: That's a 17-year-old guy. The Quran says he was a

745
00:32:13,090 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: little boy. Another one is the reaction of Jacob. So

746
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: what how did Jacob react to Joseph's death or the

747
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: news of Joseph's death in the Bible?

748
00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:25,660
Speaker 3: Like he's devastated.

749
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:25,940
Speaker 4: Yeah.

750
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:27,700
Speaker 1: And then he was like, I can't believe it. And

751
00:32:27,740 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: even years later, when they're trying to tell him, he's like, no,

752
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,660
Speaker 1: my it says Jacob's heart became numb because he couldn't

753
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: he just couldn't believe that Joseph was alive. But in

754
00:32:35,340 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 1: the Koran, Jacob's immediate reaction was like, no, I know

755
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:40,350
Speaker 1: he's alive. And then later on, when he's sending them

756
00:32:40,370 --> 00:32:42,310
Speaker 1: back to Egypt, he's like, nope, he's alive. And then

757
00:32:42,330 --> 00:32:44,110
Speaker 1: when he finds out, he's like, see, sons, I told

758
00:32:44,150 --> 00:32:46,190
Speaker 1: you so. I knew what you didn't. Allah told me

759
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:49,220
Speaker 1: what you guys didn't know. And so that's, first of all,

760
00:32:49,230 --> 00:32:52,140
Speaker 1: that's like a complete opposite, right? And so I'm about

761
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 1: to get into the methodology here. What's the methodology? But

762
00:32:54,620 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: one more example I want to bring up. Who adopted

763
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: Moses in the Bible?

764
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,460
Speaker 3: Pharaoh's wife. Or Pharaoh's daughter.

765
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: Pharaoh's daughter.

766
00:33:03,940 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 3: Pharaoh's daughter.

767
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,500
Speaker 1: You've been watching Prince of Egypt, huh?

768
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been watching the Prince of Egypt. Yeah.

769
00:33:08,140 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: Prince of Egypt gets the Bible wrong in that specific detail.

770
00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: So it was Pharaoh's daughter. In the Quran, it's Pharaoh's wife.

771
00:33:14,380 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 3: I've been reading the Quran.

772
00:33:15,220 --> 00:33:18,470
Speaker 1: That's what it was. Interesting. So what's going on here?

773
00:33:18,490 --> 00:33:24,510
Speaker 1: The Quran supposedly is supposed to be the correct version.

774
00:33:24,530 --> 00:33:27,070
Speaker 1: It's correcting the Torah. So that means the original Torah

775
00:33:27,410 --> 00:33:30,540
Speaker 1: said it was Pharaoh's wife, not daughter. So that means

776
00:33:30,690 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: somebody corrupted our Torah to say Pharaoh's daughter. If you

777
00:33:33,700 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: actually look at the passage of Pharaoh's daughter, it says

778
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 1: Pharaoh's daughter about six times in just one passage over

779
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: and over and over. And we actually have that in

780
00:33:40,660 --> 00:33:44,340
Speaker 1: the Dead Sea Scrolls. The thing is, this can't be

781
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,370
Speaker 1: an accidental error. Let's just say it was someone corrupted

782
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,950
Speaker 1: the scripture. It can't be on accident, right? The Hebrew

783
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:51,810
Speaker 1: word for Pharaoh's daughter is not even similar at all.

784
00:33:51,930 --> 00:33:53,670
Speaker 1: So it can't be a scribal error. And the thing is,

785
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:57,410
Speaker 1: here's the methodology. There's only two types of corruption. There's

786
00:33:57,550 --> 00:34:02,070
Speaker 1: intentional corruption and unintentional corruption. This cannot be unintentional. No way.

787
00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:05,050
Speaker 1: Because you can't actually pen slip every single time it

788
00:34:05,070 --> 00:34:07,010
Speaker 1: says daughter into wife.

789
00:34:07,030 --> 00:34:07,870
Speaker 3: Six times in a row.

790
00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:08,090
Speaker 1: Right.

791
00:34:08,180 --> 00:34:08,379
Speaker 4: Yeah.

792
00:34:09,219 --> 00:34:11,779
Speaker 1: And then just think about the story of Joseph for

793
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,980
Speaker 1: a second. That just would be impossible. And so now

794
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: it would be, now we're left with intentional changes. So

795
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: if it is intentionally changed, there has to be a motive.

796
00:34:19,660 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: There's only really four hypothetical motives. The first one is

797
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,770
Speaker 1: prophecies of Muhammad. They will say that Christians and Jews,

798
00:34:26,910 --> 00:34:30,290
Speaker 1: mostly Jews, corrupted the previous scriptures to remove Muhammad from

799
00:34:30,540 --> 00:34:32,420
Speaker 1: and to remove the prophecy of Muhammad. Does that have

800
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,140
Speaker 1: to do with Muhammad at all? Okay, next. Political motive.

801
00:34:36,660 --> 00:34:39,140
Speaker 1: They say the Jews always like to give themselves more power,

802
00:34:39,180 --> 00:34:41,330
Speaker 1: so they change the scriptures to do so. Does that

803
00:34:41,390 --> 00:34:43,270
Speaker 1: give Jews one group more power over the other?

804
00:34:43,450 --> 00:34:43,609
Speaker 4: No.

805
00:34:43,730 --> 00:34:45,890
Speaker 1: The big picture story is the same. Joseph still becomes

806
00:34:46,170 --> 00:34:50,930
Speaker 1: a very important leader in Egypt. Okay, next one. Ethical.

807
00:34:51,370 --> 00:34:54,310
Speaker 1: Does this change your view on abortion, polygamy, murder?

808
00:34:55,070 --> 00:34:55,270
Speaker 3: No.

809
00:34:55,890 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: So, it's not a moral, it's not an ethical motive either.

810
00:34:59,620 --> 00:35:01,630
Speaker 1: The last one is theological. Does this have anything to

811
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,250
Speaker 1: do with Trinity or Taohid? Taohid is a oneness of God. No,

812
00:35:05,330 --> 00:35:08,190
Speaker 1: not at all, right? And so if it didn't happen

813
00:35:08,570 --> 00:35:12,110
Speaker 1: intentionally and didn't happen unintentionally, then it didn't happen at all.

814
00:35:12,469 --> 00:35:15,090
Speaker 1: So what makes, and the more you stack each of

815
00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: these stories, which I'm actually about to.

816
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:17,580
Speaker 4: Show you some- And by the way, before you show

817
00:35:17,620 --> 00:35:19,860
Speaker 4: me the next one, when somebody says the text has

818
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:22,739
Speaker 4: been corrupted, we have two ways to analyze this. One

819
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,589
Speaker 4: is internally- And you're saying there's no internal reason we

820
00:35:26,610 --> 00:35:28,690
Speaker 4: can give that they would change it that matches up

821
00:35:28,730 --> 00:35:30,650
Speaker 4: with the claims that are made. And we can look

822
00:35:30,750 --> 00:35:34,930
Speaker 4: externally to see, oh, are there competing manuscripts? Some that

823
00:35:34,989 --> 00:35:36,850
Speaker 4: say mom, some that say daughter.

824
00:35:37,230 --> 00:35:38,130
Speaker 3: Then it's possible.

825
00:35:38,469 --> 00:35:41,029
Speaker 4: But I haven't done the research on this, but presumably

826
00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:44,870
Speaker 4: it's unanimous Dead Sea Scrolls. All the manuscripts we have

827
00:35:45,110 --> 00:35:48,210
Speaker 4: are the daughter, not the mother. And this is written

828
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:50,930
Speaker 4: in case people aren't aware. You know, the Quran, we're going, what, sixth,

829
00:35:51,010 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 4: seventh century as opposed to. Dead Sea Scrolls at least

830
00:35:55,219 --> 00:35:59,339
Speaker 4: a century before the time of Christ it doesn't it's

831
00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:03,660
Speaker 4: a claim made removed internally and externally from the data

832
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 4: that we have that's correct yes okay keep.

833
00:36:05,780 --> 00:36:08,150
Speaker 1: Going and one thing I want to emphasize here is

834
00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:09,950
Speaker 1: when you talk to a Muslim they are just going

835
00:36:09,969 --> 00:36:12,630
Speaker 1: to go for general corruption so they'll say see the

836
00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:16,270
Speaker 1: Dead Sea Scrolls is missing portions because it's very fragmentary

837
00:36:16,810 --> 00:36:20,169
Speaker 1: so that is evidence that the Torah is corrupted technically

838
00:36:21,170 --> 00:36:25,470
Speaker 1: yes well no but I don't want just general corruption.

839
00:36:25,810 --> 00:36:28,250
Speaker 1: If they and they find a single variance in in

840
00:36:28,370 --> 00:36:31,100
Speaker 1: one codex versus another, they'll be like, oh, that's that's corrupted.

841
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: But no, no, no. I don't want general corruption. My

842
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,360
Speaker 1: lovely Muslim friend, I need specifically what was corrupted.

843
00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:39,950
Speaker 4: So you have to explain the word corruption for that,

844
00:36:39,989 --> 00:36:41,730
Speaker 4: by the way. I know you're using the language that

845
00:36:41,770 --> 00:36:46,370
Speaker 4: they use, but a difference is not necessarily corruption to me.

846
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:49,029
Speaker 3: But corruption implies intentional corruption.

847
00:36:49,450 --> 00:36:49,890
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

848
00:36:49,910 --> 00:36:51,430
Speaker 3: It could be unintentional.

849
00:36:51,450 --> 00:36:53,530
Speaker 1: Let me clarify what I'm saying. I'm using the language

850
00:36:53,570 --> 00:36:57,710
Speaker 1: that they will use to consider the variance corruption.

851
00:36:57,730 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 3: The claims that they're making. Exactly, yes. Okay.

852
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,219
Speaker 1: So let me just show you some examples. So with

853
00:37:02,260 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: the same methodology, we're going to use this on the

854
00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: story of Moses in the Quran. So here it is.

855
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 3: All right, lean into the mic so we don't lose you.

856
00:37:11,219 --> 00:37:12,910
Speaker 1: Oh, yes. This is the story of Moses in the Quran,

857
00:37:13,150 --> 00:37:15,469
Speaker 1: and Scotty's going to read this. Go ahead and read

858
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: from verse... 26 to the end right here where it's highlighted.

859
00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:23,350
Speaker 1: So the context of– this is Moses' marriage story.

860
00:37:23,350 --> 00:37:26,950
Speaker 2: 26 to– okay, and before he reads it, you'll take

861
00:37:26,989 --> 00:37:30,090
Speaker 2: this out and you'll talk to Muslims on the street

862
00:37:30,130 --> 00:37:31,690
Speaker 2: about this and use this practically.

863
00:37:31,770 --> 00:37:34,510
Speaker 1: Okay, just give me context. My favorite setting is one-on-one

864
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:36,549
Speaker 1: on a Google Meet or in a private setting. But yes,

865
00:37:36,610 --> 00:37:37,690
Speaker 1: it's also fun on the street as well.

866
00:37:37,690 --> 00:37:38,169
Speaker 3: 26 to 29.

867
00:37:38,170 --> 00:37:40,990
Speaker 4: And so just so people know, you're not just doing

868
00:37:41,050 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 4: this to do a gotcha moment with people to get

869
00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:43,910
Speaker 4: a video.

870
00:37:43,930 --> 00:37:43,989
Speaker 1: No.

871
00:37:44,510 --> 00:37:46,819
Speaker 4: There's a time and place for that for people to learn.

872
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 4: But you're doing this more so without even that video

873
00:37:49,219 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 4: because you're just reaching out to Muslims.

874
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:51,819
Speaker 3: Love it.

875
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 4: So your social media is downstream from the heart of

876
00:37:54,540 --> 00:37:56,900
Speaker 4: what you do. Skyden and I talk about this all

877
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:58,259
Speaker 4: the time. I'm like, I'm not going out to do

878
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 4: something on video to get it on video. I'm only

879
00:38:01,380 --> 00:38:04,500
Speaker 4: going to do something I would normally do. And if

880
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 4: I can use the video to help somebody on social media,

881
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:08,279
Speaker 4: so be it.

882
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 3: So good. Keep going. 26 to 29? Yeah. Okay.

883
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: One of the two daughters suggested, oh, my dear father,

884
00:38:14,980 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 2: hire him. A strong, trustworthy person is definitely the best

885
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,180
Speaker 2: to hire. The old man proposed, I wish to marry

886
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: one of these two daughters of mine to you, provided

887
00:38:23,700 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: that you stay in my service for eight years. If

888
00:38:26,260 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: you complete 10, it will be a favor from you,

889
00:38:28,820 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: but I do not wish to make it difficult for you.

890
00:38:31,180 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: God willing, you will find me an agreeable man. Moses responded,

891
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 2: then it is settled between you and I. Whichever term

892
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:40,140
Speaker 2: I fulfill, there will be no further obligation on me.

893
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,700
Speaker 2: and God is a witness to what we say. When

894
00:38:42,739 --> 00:38:45,720
Speaker 2: Moses had completed the term and was traveling with his family,

895
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: he spotted a fire on the side of Mount Tur.

896
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: That's good. That's the burning bush, by the way, at

897
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 1: the end. Okay, what is going on here? What stands

898
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:52,980
Speaker 1: out to you?

899
00:38:55,420 --> 00:38:59,410
Speaker 2: Moses is talking about marrying, or was it Moses or

900
00:38:59,430 --> 00:39:03,370
Speaker 2: the person he's talking about is giving his daughters for marriage? Exactly.

901
00:39:03,410 --> 00:39:05,390
Speaker 1: So Moses has to work two terms for.

902
00:39:05,450 --> 00:39:06,109
Speaker 3: One of the two daughters.

903
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:10,500
Speaker 1: What does that sound like?

904
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: The story of Jacob and Leah.

905
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,240
Speaker 1: So Cron's mixing this up. Also, at the well, Moses

906
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,090
Speaker 1: in the Bible meets seven daughters. He meets two women

907
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,450
Speaker 1: at this well. Because they also have the well story here.

908
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:26,250
Speaker 1: And Jacob is the one who marries the two sisters.

909
00:39:26,730 --> 00:39:26,910
Speaker 2: Right?

910
00:39:26,989 --> 00:39:30,299
Speaker 1: So that's mixed up. And then who is Moses? with

911
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:31,700
Speaker 1: at the burning bush in the Bible?

912
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 3: Who is he with?

913
00:39:34,140 --> 00:39:34,739
Speaker 1: Yeah, who is he with?

914
00:39:35,739 --> 00:39:38,259
Speaker 3: Like you mean like somebody else besides? You mean not

915
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: in the fire. He's speaking to the angel of the Lord.

916
00:39:40,219 --> 00:39:40,860
Speaker 1: Was he with his family?

917
00:39:40,890 --> 00:39:44,069
Speaker 3: No. He was by himself. He was with a sheep. Right?

918
00:39:44,410 --> 00:39:47,469
Speaker 1: But he was with his family here. You see what's

919
00:39:47,489 --> 00:39:49,770
Speaker 1: going on here? It's not only wrong. It's just completely mixed.

920
00:39:50,340 --> 00:39:53,100
Speaker 1: So with the methodology, it's like what a Muslim has

921
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,470
Speaker 1: to claim is that if this is the true original Torah,

922
00:39:56,989 --> 00:39:59,910
Speaker 1: somebody changed this version of the Torah to the Torah

923
00:39:59,930 --> 00:40:02,910
Speaker 1: we have today, meaning they completely made up the story

924
00:40:02,989 --> 00:40:05,610
Speaker 1: of Jacob and corrupted the version of Moses.

925
00:40:06,070 --> 00:40:09,989
Speaker 4: And in a book written seven, eight centuries after the

926
00:40:10,070 --> 00:40:12,129
Speaker 4: earliest copies that we have. Yes.

927
00:40:12,450 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: So what we do is we keep piling on these stories.

928
00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:17,380
Speaker 1: And of course, what they have to do is they

929
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,090
Speaker 1: can't even say it was corrupted before. pre or post seventh,

930
00:40:20,150 --> 00:40:22,229
Speaker 1: they would say it has to be post Dead Sea Scrolls.

931
00:40:22,910 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: So that is the claim they have to make. But

932
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: the more you give these to them and you just

933
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,299
Speaker 1: pile them on and on. So we call these pebbles, right?

934
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 3: Before we come to pebbles. Okay.

935
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:33,580
Speaker 4: So I'm trying to think if, and I haven't done

936
00:40:33,620 --> 00:40:35,779
Speaker 4: a deep dive on this example. If I were to

937
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,250
Speaker 4: take the other position, argue against you, I'd say, oh,

938
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:41,770
Speaker 4: this happened to Jacob, but it also happened to Moses.

939
00:40:41,850 --> 00:40:45,050
Speaker 4: This is giving details and a further story that wasn't

940
00:40:45,150 --> 00:40:46,930
Speaker 4: included in the original one.

941
00:40:47,550 --> 00:40:50,549
Speaker 3: And you would say that doesn't work because why?

942
00:40:51,690 --> 00:40:54,390
Speaker 1: Well, because we have an account of Moses and Jacob

943
00:40:55,150 --> 00:40:55,630
Speaker 1: in the Torah.

944
00:40:57,150 --> 00:40:58,490
Speaker 3: Separate accounts of their lives.

945
00:40:58,570 --> 00:41:02,710
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so it would still be why? Why did

946
00:41:02,730 --> 00:41:05,930
Speaker 1: they change it? Because was this intentional? Yes, it had

947
00:41:05,950 --> 00:41:10,069
Speaker 1: to be very intentional. Whoever corrupted the original Torah had

948
00:41:10,090 --> 00:41:11,989
Speaker 1: to be very intentional. Okay.

949
00:41:12,530 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 3: Sorry. Just trying to make sure I understand. Okay. So

950
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 3: this is the story of Moses at the well.

951
00:41:16,620 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 1: Yes.

952
00:41:17,150 --> 00:41:21,530
Speaker 4: But it brings in stories from Jacob to the story

953
00:41:21,630 --> 00:41:25,790
Speaker 4: at the well and confuses those two stories. So they

954
00:41:25,810 --> 00:41:28,190
Speaker 4: couldn't say, no, no, it just sounds similar to the

955
00:41:28,230 --> 00:41:32,070
Speaker 4: story of Jacob. We're not confusing here. We're adding details

956
00:41:32,090 --> 00:41:34,750
Speaker 4: that weren't there. Why couldn't they make that claim?

957
00:41:35,090 --> 00:41:37,770
Speaker 1: Because it also contradicts the version that we have in

958
00:41:37,790 --> 00:41:38,109
Speaker 1: the Bible.

959
00:41:39,060 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 4: Of who's with Moses at the well. So there's added

960
00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,900
Speaker 4: detail and there's confused detail in the story.

961
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:46,660
Speaker 1: There's confused.

962
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:47,299
Speaker 3: It's both of them.

963
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:48,739
Speaker 1: It's confused and contradicting.

964
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:49,540
Speaker 3: Okay. Got it.

965
00:41:49,540 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: So that's the issue here.

966
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 3: Okay. Okay.

967
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,340
Speaker 1: I'll show you one more example here. This is a

968
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:59,790
Speaker 1: story of King Saul. Okay. You could read from 249

969
00:41:59,790 --> 00:42:01,530
Speaker 1: to the underlined.

970
00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:04,490
Speaker 3: Okay. All right. 249.

971
00:42:04,489 --> 00:42:07,390
Speaker 2: When Saul marched forth with his army, he cautioned, God

972
00:42:07,410 --> 00:42:09,859
Speaker 2: will test you with the river. So whoever drinks his

973
00:42:09,940 --> 00:42:12,180
Speaker 2: fill from it is not with me, and whoever does

974
00:42:12,219 --> 00:42:14,219
Speaker 2: not taste it except a sip from the hollow of

975
00:42:14,260 --> 00:42:17,299
Speaker 2: his hands is definitely with me. They all drink their

976
00:42:17,340 --> 00:42:19,290
Speaker 2: fill except for a few. I think I know where

977
00:42:19,310 --> 00:42:21,850
Speaker 2: this is going. When he and the remaining faithful with

978
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:24,230
Speaker 2: him crossed the river, they said, Now we are no

979
00:42:24,310 --> 00:42:27,290
Speaker 2: match for Goliath and his warriors, but those who believers

980
00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 2: who were certain they would meet God reasons. How many

981
00:42:30,860 --> 00:42:33,219
Speaker 2: times has a small force vanquished a mighty army by

982
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 2: the will of God? And God is always with the steadfast.

983
00:42:36,390 --> 00:42:39,070
Speaker 2: When they advanced to face Goliath and his warriors, they prayed,

984
00:42:39,530 --> 00:42:42,630
Speaker 2: Our Lord, shower us with perseverance, make our steps firm,

985
00:42:42,930 --> 00:42:45,469
Speaker 2: and give us victory over the disbelieving people. So they

986
00:42:45,530 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: defeated them by God's will, and David killed Goliath, and

987
00:42:48,739 --> 00:42:51,609
Speaker 2: God blessed David with a kingship and wisdom and taught

988
00:42:51,660 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 2: him what he willed.

989
00:42:52,410 --> 00:42:54,259
Speaker 1: That's good. What's wrong here?

990
00:42:55,420 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 2: So the first piece that sounds like the story of

991
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,280
Speaker 2: Gideon with picking up the water.

992
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,239
Speaker 1: Judges 7.

993
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 3: And that's not anywhere in the Bible. Not in 1

994
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:05,540
Speaker 3: Samuel 17 for sure.

995
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,260
Speaker 2: So you're talking about that that can't be in both.

996
00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:12,390
Speaker 2: Because just because it's not mentioned in the Bible, why

997
00:43:12,450 --> 00:43:14,469
Speaker 2: is it wrong that it can't be mentioned in the Quran?

998
00:43:14,489 --> 00:43:16,370
Speaker 1: Well, did Saul and his army charge at Goliath?

999
00:43:17,010 --> 00:43:17,210
Speaker 4: No.

1000
00:43:17,370 --> 00:43:17,790
Speaker 3: Okay then.

1001
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:20,530
Speaker 1: So it's a very different story of King Saul.

1002
00:43:21,020 --> 00:43:21,300
Speaker 3: Okay.

1003
00:43:21,820 --> 00:43:25,500
Speaker 1: And also that's not just one. Like, for example, in

1004
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,750
Speaker 1: the Bible, King Saul comes from a wealthy family. In

1005
00:43:27,770 --> 00:43:30,210
Speaker 1: the Quran, they say he's poor, and the people are

1006
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:32,770
Speaker 1: complaining that he's too poor. So it's like, there's so many. Like,

1007
00:43:32,810 --> 00:43:34,549
Speaker 1: the ones I just read, it's just a snippet of

1008
00:43:34,590 --> 00:43:36,850
Speaker 1: King Saul's story. Every single one of the characters in

1009
00:43:36,870 --> 00:43:40,660
Speaker 1: the Quran has literally hundreds, if not thousands, for some

1010
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 1: of them, differences and contradictions from our Torah.

1011
00:43:43,469 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: And so you're saying there's not a political, theological, there's

1012
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: none of those reasons as to why those would have

1013
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 2: been changed in the Quran if it was, like, I

1014
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,460
Speaker 2: don't know, something else about King Saul that could have

1015
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: changed the story, then that would be more of a, okay,

1016
00:43:56,219 --> 00:43:58,660
Speaker 2: it may have been changed, but You're saying there's no

1017
00:43:58,719 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 2: reason for that to be changed.

1018
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:00,220
Speaker 1: Exactly.

1019
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 3: Okay.

1020
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,779
Speaker 1: I'll give you one last example, actually, and this one

1021
00:44:02,910 --> 00:44:04,730
Speaker 1: is probably the biggest shock.

1022
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:07,450
Speaker 4: While you're turning there, the idea of Saul charging with

1023
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:11,950
Speaker 4: his armies is so absolutely contradictory to 1 Samuel 17.

1024
00:44:11,930 --> 00:44:12,509
Speaker 3: Right.

1025
00:44:13,070 --> 00:44:18,540
Speaker 4: The whole point in 1 Samuel 8 is that they

1026
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,900
Speaker 4: wanted a king who would defend them, and Saul refused

1027
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,740
Speaker 4: to do so. And David stepped up to Saul's shame.

1028
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,260
Speaker 4: So it's almost like he's turning Saul into a hero,

1029
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,569
Speaker 4: which is the opposite of what the biblical text is teaching.

1030
00:44:31,590 --> 00:44:33,310
Speaker 1: Want to know something really interesting?

1031
00:44:33,469 --> 00:44:35,129
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1032
00:44:35,150 --> 00:44:37,330
Speaker 1: So in the Midrash, you've heard of the Midrash? The

1033
00:44:37,370 --> 00:44:42,580
Speaker 1: rabbis make Saul look amazing. He's like the best character ever.

1034
00:44:42,980 --> 00:44:44,500
Speaker 1: And in one minute of action says that he was

1035
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: as pure as a newborn. So one thing about the rabbis,

1036
00:44:48,340 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: they really try to whitewash all the sins of the

1037
00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:51,940
Speaker 1: patriarchs and the prophets. So Adam is also the first

1038
00:44:51,980 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: prophet and the rabbi. So I'm just trying to show

1039
00:44:53,860 --> 00:44:54,859
Speaker 1: you like the tie of like.

1040
00:44:55,140 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 3: Saul's not a patriarch or a prophet. Well, you know what?

1041
00:44:59,340 --> 00:45:01,170
Speaker 1: So I'm talking about from the rabbi standards.

1042
00:45:01,330 --> 00:45:02,149
Speaker 3: Right. You know why?

1043
00:45:02,210 --> 00:45:05,490
Speaker 1: Because of that one time he prophesies when the spirit

1044
00:45:05,510 --> 00:45:08,290
Speaker 1: comes and... So they take, the rabbis take one small

1045
00:45:08,330 --> 00:45:09,730
Speaker 1: thing and then they run with it.

1046
00:45:09,750 --> 00:45:10,050
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1047
00:45:10,090 --> 00:45:10,750
Speaker 1: Anyways, go ahead.

1048
00:45:10,870 --> 00:45:11,969
Speaker 3: Am I just reading the first verse?

1049
00:45:12,030 --> 00:45:12,210
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1050
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:16,100
Speaker 1: So this is Moses and the Exodus story. Go ahead.

1051
00:45:16,300 --> 00:45:19,580
Speaker 3: It says, we surely gave Moses nine clear signs.

1052
00:45:20,340 --> 00:45:22,799
Speaker 1: Continue reading. Don't read the brackets because the brackets not

1053
00:45:22,820 --> 00:45:23,489
Speaker 1: in the original Arabic.

1054
00:45:23,860 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 3: So continue.

1055
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: You, O prophet, can ask the children of Israel.

1056
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,700
Speaker 1: Wait, wait, hold on. Just pause right there. The you,

1057
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,210
Speaker 1: O prophet is in brackets. So take that out. Read

1058
00:45:31,230 --> 00:45:32,750
Speaker 1: it from the beginning without the brackets.

1059
00:45:32,770 --> 00:45:33,469
Speaker 3: That bracket's small.

1060
00:45:33,510 --> 00:45:36,630
Speaker 2: Wow. We surely gave Moses nine clear signs. Ask the

1061
00:45:36,670 --> 00:45:37,410
Speaker 2: children of Israel.

1062
00:45:37,450 --> 00:45:41,310
Speaker 1: That's good. How many signs? How many plagues are there

1063
00:45:41,330 --> 00:45:41,589
Speaker 1: in there?

1064
00:45:41,610 --> 00:45:42,209
Speaker 4: Ten. Okay.

1065
00:45:42,950 --> 00:45:44,730
Speaker 3: Okay, but that makes sense to me.

1066
00:45:44,750 --> 00:45:47,130
Speaker 2: The Quran would say nine because they deny blood atonement.

1067
00:45:47,150 --> 00:45:49,109
Speaker 3: They're not going to want the Passover. Good thinking, buddy.

1068
00:45:49,140 --> 00:45:50,070
Speaker 3: That makes a lot of sense.

1069
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:57,150
Speaker 1: That's great. But this is. A huge claim. The Passover

1070
00:45:57,170 --> 00:46:01,450
Speaker 1: is extremely well attested in history, right? And the beauty

1071
00:46:01,590 --> 00:46:06,259
Speaker 1: of our Bible is it gives such detailed accounts of

1072
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,700
Speaker 1: the Exodus story. So there's the Exodus version also in

1073
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,660
Speaker 1: the Quran. In the version of our Bible, the correct

1074
00:46:13,860 --> 00:46:17,750
Speaker 1: story in the Bible, they leave because Pharaoh sends them out, right?

1075
00:46:18,230 --> 00:46:20,770
Speaker 1: He summons them and says, leave right now. In the Quran,

1076
00:46:20,790 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: they're sneaking out at night. So there's no room for, oh,

1077
00:46:24,580 --> 00:46:25,650
Speaker 1: they just didn't mention it.

1078
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 4: No.

1079
00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: The Quran actually lists out all the other ones. They

1080
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,740
Speaker 1: don't even get all of them right. It includes floods

1081
00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: and things like this. So there's no flooding plague. So

1082
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: the Quran gets three of the plagues right. And it

1083
00:46:38,060 --> 00:46:41,590
Speaker 1: names all nine, but it doesn't mention the death of

1084
00:46:41,610 --> 00:46:44,810
Speaker 1: the firstborn. And so if you actually look at the Bible...

1085
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: that type of corruption would be insane for someone to

1086
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: add in the Passover. Because we know many of the

1087
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,589
Speaker 1: kings during the time of kings, they would reinstate the Passover.

1088
00:46:54,610 --> 00:46:57,450
Speaker 1: They would practice it. Hezekiah, Josiah. And so that means

1089
00:46:57,590 --> 00:46:59,830
Speaker 1: every time that happens, somebody went in and added Passover,

1090
00:46:59,870 --> 00:47:01,930
Speaker 1: added Passover, added Passover. The Feast of Unleavened Bread is

1091
00:47:01,969 --> 00:47:04,290
Speaker 1: dependent on that. The whole Levitical priesthood, the killing of

1092
00:47:04,310 --> 00:47:06,509
Speaker 1: the firstborn, the redemption of the firstborn with the Levitical priesthood,

1093
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:08,730
Speaker 1: that's all dependent on the Passover. All dependent on the

1094
00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:11,169
Speaker 1: killing of the firstborn. All of these things. And so

1095
00:47:11,810 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: all of those things were added now according to a Muslim.

1096
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: And so... I just gave you three examples. There are

1097
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: thousands of examples like this.

1098
00:47:19,980 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 3: Thousands of examples.

1099
00:47:34,790 --> 00:47:36,750
Speaker 4: There's two angels. You say it's light when you go

1100
00:47:36,770 --> 00:47:38,310
Speaker 4: to the tomb. You say it's dark when you go

1101
00:47:38,330 --> 00:47:41,569
Speaker 4: to the tomb. You're saying these are fundamental.

1102
00:47:42,070 --> 00:47:42,850
Speaker 1: Irreconcilable.

1103
00:47:43,370 --> 00:47:46,870
Speaker 4: Agree, but I'm just saying there's a qualitative difference between

1104
00:47:46,910 --> 00:47:50,290
Speaker 4: saying if there's two angels, there's one. And if you

1105
00:47:50,410 --> 00:47:52,549
Speaker 4: say one angel spoke, it doesn't mean there's not two.

1106
00:47:53,050 --> 00:47:55,589
Speaker 4: There's a tension there, but not a contradiction. These are

1107
00:47:55,750 --> 00:48:00,350
Speaker 4: direct contradictions in quality and in quantity.

1108
00:48:00,410 --> 00:48:01,290
Speaker 3: There's so many more.

1109
00:48:01,790 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

1110
00:48:02,700 --> 00:48:03,410
Speaker 3: I have a question.

1111
00:48:03,430 --> 00:48:06,230
Speaker 2: So you had said that your approach is you don't

1112
00:48:06,250 --> 00:48:08,430
Speaker 2: want to rip out Muslims and then they just go

1113
00:48:08,510 --> 00:48:10,950
Speaker 2: to atheism or they go to somewhere else. You want

1114
00:48:10,969 --> 00:48:13,070
Speaker 2: to rip them and reap them straight back into Christ.

1115
00:48:13,330 --> 00:48:15,090
Speaker 2: So all we did was talk about the Old Testament.

1116
00:48:15,330 --> 00:48:17,860
Speaker 2: How do you get them from, okay, I see that

1117
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,100
Speaker 2: the Old Testament or what the cross says is corrupt.

1118
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:21,940
Speaker 3: How do I get that? How do you get them

1119
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:22,320
Speaker 3: to Christ?

1120
00:48:22,380 --> 00:48:23,420
Speaker 1: That's a great question.

1121
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 3: Can I bracket one second? This is exactly the right

1122
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:25,859
Speaker 3: question to go to.

1123
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,569
Speaker 4: But there's a difference in your approach between somebody on

1124
00:48:29,610 --> 00:48:33,430
Speaker 4: the street and like apologists who defend this stuff.

1125
00:48:33,450 --> 00:48:33,569
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

1126
00:48:34,210 --> 00:48:36,430
Speaker 4: And so I could use arguments with people on the

1127
00:48:36,450 --> 00:48:39,609
Speaker 4: street that would just maybe make them look stupid and

1128
00:48:39,890 --> 00:48:43,009
Speaker 4: make stuff up or whatever. But then apologists are like, no, no, no.

1129
00:48:43,010 --> 00:48:47,300
Speaker 4: There's actually a good response to this. What are briefly–

1130
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,700
Speaker 4: because I know you're doing evangelism. What are some of

1131
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 4: the ways that more trained, formal Muslim apologists will try

1132
00:48:54,940 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 4: to respond to this if they do it all before

1133
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,700
Speaker 4: we come back to how you bridge it to Christ?

1134
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:00,700
Speaker 1: When they're being honest?

1135
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:00,779
Speaker 2: Yes.

1136
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 3: I would love to know when they're like when they

1137
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:06,340
Speaker 3: think they're not being recorded.

1138
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:07,339
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1139
00:49:07,420 --> 00:49:07,660
Speaker 3: Tell me.

1140
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: They don't have an answer. I'm not joking.

1141
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,610
Speaker 3: So they'll concede that they'll tell you we don't have

1142
00:49:12,650 --> 00:49:13,110
Speaker 3: an answer.

1143
00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:16,489
Speaker 1: So they'll say, I don't know. Or I take it

1144
00:49:16,570 --> 00:49:18,190
Speaker 1: as they don't have an answer when they run to

1145
00:49:18,210 --> 00:49:19,729
Speaker 1: the New Testament. Explain the Trinity.

1146
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:19,910
Speaker 4: Explain.

1147
00:49:20,540 --> 00:49:25,419
Speaker 1: So I was actually with Shabbir Ali a few weeks ago.

1148
00:49:25,739 --> 00:49:28,140
Speaker 4: People don't recognize his name. He's been one of the

1149
00:49:28,180 --> 00:49:32,589
Speaker 4: most outspoken people. Muslim apologist. He's debated Michael Kona. He's

1150
00:49:32,610 --> 00:49:34,950
Speaker 4: debated William Lane Craig and a host of others. Very

1151
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:36,750
Speaker 4: savvy and smart, by the way, in terms.

1152
00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:38,450
Speaker 1: Of what he does. Really nice guy, too. Super kind guy.

1153
00:49:38,770 --> 00:49:39,630
Speaker 3: Doesn't surprise me.

1154
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:39,870
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1155
00:49:39,930 --> 00:49:40,530
Speaker 3: Keep going.

1156
00:49:40,730 --> 00:49:44,730
Speaker 1: It was... I met him on accident. So, one of

1157
00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:46,950
Speaker 1: our students... So, I'll share a little bit more about

1158
00:49:46,989 --> 00:49:49,950
Speaker 1: our ministry, but we have... We're training apologists left and right. So,

1159
00:49:49,969 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: one of our apologists, he was learning with us, and

1160
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: he lives in Toronto, and he was outside of Shabir

1161
00:49:56,219 --> 00:49:57,279
Speaker 1: Ali's mosque, but he didn't know.

1162
00:49:57,940 --> 00:49:58,020
Speaker 2: And.

1163
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:02,020
Speaker 1: He was giving the people out there, they had dawah tables.

1164
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,549
Speaker 1: Dawa is a word for evangelizing in their version. He

1165
00:50:06,570 --> 00:50:08,750
Speaker 1: was giving them so much trouble that they were like, alright,

1166
00:50:08,850 --> 00:50:10,069
Speaker 1: I think this would be a great fit to talk

1167
00:50:10,090 --> 00:50:12,130
Speaker 1: to Shabir. So he calls me up and me and

1168
00:50:12,150 --> 00:50:15,610
Speaker 1: my friend Pavel, we go too. And we're sitting there

1169
00:50:15,630 --> 00:50:17,790
Speaker 1: for like two hours. And I give him, I do

1170
00:50:17,810 --> 00:50:19,690
Speaker 1: the entire methodology that I just laid out for you

1171
00:50:19,710 --> 00:50:23,630
Speaker 1: with these specific things. And again, I don't like to

1172
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:25,330
Speaker 1: be like, oh, he had no answer, he was running.

1173
00:50:25,350 --> 00:50:25,549
Speaker 3: No.

1174
00:50:25,930 --> 00:50:29,720
Speaker 1: But the truth is, he kept diverting to the New Testament,

1175
00:50:29,989 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: diverting to textual criticism of the New Testament, diverting to

1176
00:50:32,620 --> 00:50:34,860
Speaker 1: the Trinity. He didn't want to talk about it. And

1177
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: so for me, that tells me he doesn't have an answer.

1178
00:50:37,940 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 1: So again, he wasn't like, oh, I don't know, you're right.

1179
00:50:40,820 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: But multiple times, two times, he says, okay, let's just say,

1180
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: let's just say Islam is wrong and the Quran is

1181
00:50:46,739 --> 00:50:48,319
Speaker 1: not the word of God. Now explain this.

1182
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,900
Speaker 3: Wow, he said that to you. That's amazing.

1183
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,540
Speaker 1: So am I saying he, no, I'm not saying like

1184
00:50:54,580 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: I cooked him or anything, but he definitely didn't have.

1185
00:50:57,180 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 4: So there could be some other scholarly people that have

1186
00:50:59,580 --> 00:51:01,739
Speaker 4: engaged us in journals. You haven't looked into, but one

1187
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,020
Speaker 4: of the lean apologists kind of conceded and.

1188
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,259
Speaker 1: The best thing he had was a documentary hypothesis, which

1189
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:09,900
Speaker 1: is not even compatible with Islam because the Islam calls

1190
00:51:10,219 --> 00:51:13,670
Speaker 1: the Quran calls the Torah, a kitab kitab means the

1191
00:51:14,110 --> 00:51:16,250
Speaker 1: book or the writing. And it says the kitab given

1192
00:51:16,310 --> 00:51:19,029
Speaker 1: to Moses, a book given to Moses. So that that's

1193
00:51:19,050 --> 00:51:21,730
Speaker 1: not compatible with documentary hypothesis. So I don't, I'm not

1194
00:51:21,750 --> 00:51:25,270
Speaker 1: really sure why he brought it up. Um, And I

1195
00:51:25,290 --> 00:51:26,930
Speaker 1: should have pressed him on it, but I didn't. Because

1196
00:51:26,969 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 1: at that point, he just wanted to talk about the

1197
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:29,720
Speaker 1: New Testament.

1198
00:51:30,420 --> 00:51:32,899
Speaker 3: He was diverting from the challenges, it sounds like.

1199
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:37,149
Speaker 1: I will say one thing. Some stories of the Muslims

1200
00:51:37,170 --> 00:51:40,390
Speaker 1: who have come to Christ through our ministry, one of them,

1201
00:51:40,570 --> 00:51:43,069
Speaker 1: she was very, very devout. And she had been wrestling

1202
00:51:43,090 --> 00:51:46,310
Speaker 1: for years. So she's very honest, very intellectually honest. And

1203
00:51:46,390 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: she couldn't let it go. And so she looked online

1204
00:51:48,580 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: for articles. And the one article she could find to

1205
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 1: refute us, we had already studied it. And we already

1206
00:51:53,420 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 1: built it into our thing. It was amazing. And then

1207
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:01,110
Speaker 1: she booked a team with Yasir Qadhi's team. So he

1208
00:52:01,140 --> 00:52:03,770
Speaker 1: has like a team. And he's also another well-known Muslim scholar.

1209
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:07,230
Speaker 1: And they couldn't give her an answer after an hour.

1210
00:52:08,420 --> 00:52:10,540
Speaker 1: their answer to her was, hey, stop asking these questions.

1211
00:52:10,580 --> 00:52:13,030
Speaker 1: Just trust in Allah. So what we do with this,

1212
00:52:13,090 --> 00:52:16,250
Speaker 1: we don't go for low-hanging fruit, the unpersuasive stuff, you know.

1213
00:52:16,910 --> 00:52:20,930
Speaker 1: We go for the head. If you can... deconstruct the head.

1214
00:52:20,989 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: If you can take down the head, then everything else

1215
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:25,360
Speaker 1: on the bottom doesn't matter. So we're engaging like the

1216
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,339
Speaker 1: highest level of scholarship right now. And yeah, there's, there's

1217
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,819
Speaker 1: other others that we get into room with where we

1218
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:32,700
Speaker 1: test these on them all the time. And I won't,

1219
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 1: I won't say the names now, but we're constantly gathering

1220
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,890
Speaker 1: data and doing research and it's just, it's been amazing.

1221
00:52:37,950 --> 00:52:38,450
Speaker 3: So I love it.

1222
00:52:38,469 --> 00:52:40,890
Speaker 4: So back to Scotty's question about how you bridged into

1223
00:52:40,910 --> 00:52:41,670
Speaker 4: the new Testament.

1224
00:52:41,830 --> 00:52:42,029
Speaker 2: Yes.

1225
00:52:42,270 --> 00:52:45,009
Speaker 1: So, so that would be the reconstruction, right? I will

1226
00:52:45,050 --> 00:52:47,430
Speaker 1: say the bulk of the work is going to be

1227
00:52:47,469 --> 00:52:51,109
Speaker 1: getting rid of this because the Anything that is keeping

1228
00:52:51,140 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: them away from the gospel, for example, saying that the

1229
00:52:54,300 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: Trinity doesn't make sense or there's no blood atonement, it's

1230
00:52:57,219 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: all taught in this. Without this, then there's no reason

1231
00:53:00,620 --> 00:53:03,660
Speaker 1: to not believe those things with an unbiased mindset. So

1232
00:53:03,700 --> 00:53:07,299
Speaker 1: how we do it is we say, I will add,

1233
00:53:07,940 --> 00:53:10,890
Speaker 1: it takes a lot, right? So the pebble analogy, there's

1234
00:53:10,910 --> 00:53:12,930
Speaker 1: a plastic bag and every story is a pebble. There's

1235
00:53:12,950 --> 00:53:15,170
Speaker 1: a pebble, pebble, pebble, pebble. It takes many pebbles for

1236
00:53:15,190 --> 00:53:17,129
Speaker 1: the bag to actually break. And different Muslims have different

1237
00:53:17,150 --> 00:53:19,790
Speaker 1: capacities of when this bag will burst, but At that

1238
00:53:19,810 --> 00:53:23,330
Speaker 1: point in time, I say, okay, can we leave the

1239
00:53:23,350 --> 00:53:26,230
Speaker 1: Quran behind us? And can I show you what the

1240
00:53:26,270 --> 00:53:30,040
Speaker 1: Torah actually says? That's a transition. And so we still

1241
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,300
Speaker 1: don't start with the New Testament. Because I always say, listen,

1242
00:53:32,340 --> 00:53:34,140
Speaker 1: you guys love movies? When you watch a movie, you

1243
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:36,150
Speaker 1: start at the last five minutes of it?

1244
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,250
Speaker 3: Generally not.

1245
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:40,870
Speaker 1: Could you imagine? Let's just go for the last five

1246
00:53:40,910 --> 00:53:41,570
Speaker 1: minutes of Doomsday.

1247
00:53:41,989 --> 00:53:45,210
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would be... Can't do it. There's zero chance.

1248
00:53:45,230 --> 00:53:47,430
Speaker 1: So that's how I feel when, I mean, honestly, Christians

1249
00:53:47,450 --> 00:53:49,170
Speaker 1: and Muslims both, they always want to run to the

1250
00:53:49,210 --> 00:53:50,970
Speaker 1: New Testament first. It's like, let's start with the Torah.

1251
00:53:51,550 --> 00:53:53,860
Speaker 1: So we lay the foundations of the gospel from the

1252
00:53:53,890 --> 00:53:56,460
Speaker 1: Torah first. Because we just used the Torah to deconstruct,

1253
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 1: we should use it to reconstruct. So we already touched

1254
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,020
Speaker 1: on this, but first we established the doctrine of original sin. See,

1255
00:54:02,140 --> 00:54:05,020
Speaker 1: the Christians didn't make this up. Death clearly entered in

1256
00:54:05,060 --> 00:54:06,860
Speaker 1: Genesis 3. It's very clear. The ground was cursed. It

1257
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:09,580
Speaker 1: was the ground, Adam. So I get resistance sometimes, and

1258
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,890
Speaker 1: it's like, Like, well, it doesn't say that the earth

1259
00:54:11,930 --> 00:54:15,010
Speaker 1: was cursed. Some guy said that since it said ground,

1260
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:16,649
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean earth. And I was like, the Hebrew

1261
00:54:16,670 --> 00:54:17,830
Speaker 1: means the same. He's like, no.

1262
00:54:18,989 --> 00:54:19,290
Speaker 3: Okay.

1263
00:54:19,390 --> 00:54:19,690
Speaker 2: Anyways.

1264
00:54:20,410 --> 00:54:21,060
Speaker 4: So....

1265
00:54:22,210 --> 00:54:24,689
Speaker 1: But we clearly lay out doctrine of virginal sin. Then

1266
00:54:24,890 --> 00:54:27,390
Speaker 1: we lay out blood atonement. But I always use the

1267
00:54:27,410 --> 00:54:30,529
Speaker 1: example of the animal being killed. Because we show... This

1268
00:54:30,550 --> 00:54:32,270
Speaker 1: is in the first pages of the Torah. The Christians

1269
00:54:32,290 --> 00:54:36,670
Speaker 1: didn't come along and invent this years later. And then...

1270
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: go through some verses of Leviticus where it talks about

1271
00:54:40,180 --> 00:54:42,700
Speaker 1: the life is in the blood and it's a life

1272
00:54:42,739 --> 00:54:46,340
Speaker 1: for life. Then Theophanies. I spent a little bit of

1273
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: time in here because you have to get into the

1274
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,800
Speaker 1: brain that God from the beginning had already been walking

1275
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 1: with humans, walking with Adam and Eve, eating with Abraham.

1276
00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: You need a mouth, you need a body to be eating.

1277
00:54:57,600 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 1: He had been standing with Samuel. The word of the

1278
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:02,470
Speaker 1: Lord touched Jeremiah's mouth. So we kind of lay all

1279
00:55:02,489 --> 00:55:03,150
Speaker 1: these examples out.

1280
00:55:03,550 --> 00:55:05,930
Speaker 4: Sorry, when you say eating with Abraham, are you talking

1281
00:55:05,950 --> 00:55:08,330
Speaker 4: about the visitors in Genesis 18?

1282
00:55:08,330 --> 00:55:08,529
Speaker 2: Yes.

1283
00:55:08,910 --> 00:55:12,350
Speaker 3: And one is described as Yahweh amongst the visitors.

1284
00:55:12,530 --> 00:55:16,730
Speaker 1: Okay. That's right. And so we use these examples. And again,

1285
00:55:16,770 --> 00:55:18,609
Speaker 1: this takes a lot of time, right? This is hours

1286
00:55:18,650 --> 00:55:20,730
Speaker 1: and hours of time with them. It's the most rewarding thing.

1287
00:55:21,390 --> 00:55:24,609
Speaker 1: And yeah, so we lay it out because we have

1288
00:55:24,650 --> 00:55:26,710
Speaker 1: to get into the heads that the Christians didn't make

1289
00:55:26,730 --> 00:55:30,479
Speaker 1: this up. And you know what's really interesting? If there's

1290
00:55:30,500 --> 00:55:32,340
Speaker 1: a corruption claim on the Torah, it would be, oh,

1291
00:55:32,380 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 1: the Jews corrupted it, right? That's what they would say.

1292
00:55:35,060 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: But the Jews, do they believe in theophanies? No? Well,

1293
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 1: they'll deny it. So the rabbis try to explain it away.

1294
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: So why do they add it into their scriptures? Do

1295
00:55:47,900 --> 00:55:50,580
Speaker 1: the Jews believe in original sin? No. So why did

1296
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:55,100
Speaker 1: they add it into their scriptures? Oh, they'll say law was,

1297
00:55:55,739 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 1: the Bible was corrupted because prophets, they think law is

1298
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 1: a prophet, because prophets like law and David did terrible things,

1299
00:56:02,180 --> 00:56:07,150
Speaker 1: like slept with his daughters and committed adultery and rape. Okay.

1300
00:56:07,610 --> 00:56:09,950
Speaker 1: What was the motive behind that? Oh, so that they

1301
00:56:09,989 --> 00:56:12,549
Speaker 1: could do it too. What does the Ten Commandments say

1302
00:56:12,610 --> 00:56:16,830
Speaker 1: about murder and rape? And adultery? I mean, murder and adultery? Okay, yeah,

1303
00:56:16,850 --> 00:56:22,220
Speaker 1: that's good. So they corrupted the implicit story about that commandment,

1304
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,739
Speaker 1: but they left explicit commandment? Oh, okay. Hold on. What

1305
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 1: do the rabbis believe about the patriarchs and prophets? They

1306
00:56:28,900 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 1: try to whitewash it. If you read the Talmud and

1307
00:56:30,380 --> 00:56:32,910
Speaker 1: the Midrash, they try to explain away their sins. They

1308
00:56:32,930 --> 00:56:35,830
Speaker 1: try to excuse the sins of Abraham and David. And

1309
00:56:35,850 --> 00:56:39,300
Speaker 1: so they don't really... believe that the prophets are very sinful,

1310
00:56:39,340 --> 00:56:41,450
Speaker 1: so why would they add those in? And so when

1311
00:56:41,469 --> 00:56:43,589
Speaker 1: you start to press those things, it starts to come together.

1312
00:56:43,780 --> 00:56:46,870
Speaker 1: But anyways, back to this. And then finally, after I

1313
00:56:46,890 --> 00:56:49,589
Speaker 1: laid those three things out, now we prepare the way

1314
00:56:49,650 --> 00:56:51,670
Speaker 1: for Isaiah 53. And so when you have them read

1315
00:56:51,690 --> 00:56:53,910
Speaker 1: Isaiah 53, I'm like going to cry thinking about it.

1316
00:56:53,910 --> 00:56:55,989
Speaker 1: It's the most beautiful thing watching them read it. And

1317
00:56:56,010 --> 00:56:57,290
Speaker 1: I never tell them what it is yet. I say,

1318
00:56:57,310 --> 00:56:59,210
Speaker 1: who is that about? It's like, well, obviously Jesus. I

1319
00:56:59,210 --> 00:56:59,629
Speaker 1: was like, okay.

1320
00:56:59,650 --> 00:57:01,710
Speaker 3: Where do you think that is?

1321
00:57:01,850 --> 00:57:03,250
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh, it's probably the New Testament. I

1322
00:57:03,250 --> 00:57:05,250
Speaker 1: was like, no, this is hundreds of years before Jesus.

1323
00:57:05,930 --> 00:57:09,150
Speaker 1: And Sorry, I'm getting emotional thinking about it right now.

1324
00:57:09,350 --> 00:57:12,850
Speaker 1: But it's the most beautiful thing to just see their eyes,

1325
00:57:12,910 --> 00:57:16,690
Speaker 1: the veil just lift off. And I've been in meetings

1326
00:57:16,730 --> 00:57:19,170
Speaker 1: where the Muslim is crying at this passage. And I'm like,

1327
00:57:19,250 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: oh my gosh. We're both crying. And so we do that.

1328
00:57:22,940 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: And at that point, the gospel lands easily. Romans wrote, boom.

1329
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: And it's just, it's so rewarding. It's so beautiful. And

1330
00:57:31,940 --> 00:57:33,700
Speaker 1: this is what the labor is to me. This is

1331
00:57:33,740 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 1: a labor, sitting it down, either on a Google meeting

1332
00:57:36,620 --> 00:57:38,380
Speaker 1: or in person for hours and hours. And it's what

1333
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,570
Speaker 1: brings me joy. And that, in my opinion, is how

1334
00:57:40,610 --> 00:57:41,700
Speaker 1: you lead a Muslim to Christ.

1335
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:43,270
Speaker 3: Unbelievable.

1336
00:57:43,870 --> 00:57:46,610
Speaker 4: That was really impressive. I've not heard somebody approach it

1337
00:57:46,730 --> 00:57:49,910
Speaker 4: quite that way. It's very thoughtful in the way that

1338
00:57:49,950 --> 00:57:53,130
Speaker 4: you do it. I mean, I have other questions about Islam,

1339
00:57:53,150 --> 00:57:53,590
Speaker 4: but I have some.

1340
00:57:54,610 --> 00:57:57,110
Speaker 3: You came to Biola for like a semester.

1341
00:57:58,030 --> 00:58:02,150
Speaker 4: And you're like self-study, learning this kind of stuff.

1342
00:58:03,390 --> 00:58:04,610
Speaker 3: One of my concerns.

1343
00:58:05,310 --> 00:58:07,990
Speaker 4: for young influencers and scotty and i have talked about

1344
00:58:08,030 --> 00:58:11,010
Speaker 4: this a lot is that i'm glad as far as

1345
00:58:11,070 --> 00:58:13,750
Speaker 4: i know nobody recorded any talks i gave in my

1346
00:58:14,130 --> 00:58:19,570
Speaker 4: 20s i would have been rightly canceled sometimes i look

1347
00:58:19,590 --> 00:58:22,570
Speaker 4: back i'm like what was i thinking like that just

1348
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 4: made sense and i preached it and that was just

1349
00:58:25,050 --> 00:58:28,700
Speaker 4: like what was i doing and so for me in

1350
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,580
Speaker 4: some ways like i taught for 10 years i in

1351
00:58:31,620 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 4: a high school where nobody cared who I was, didn't

1352
00:58:33,900 --> 00:58:36,050
Speaker 4: have a platform like that developed over time.

1353
00:58:36,090 --> 00:58:37,690
Speaker 3: And in some ways resisted that.

1354
00:58:38,610 --> 00:58:41,430
Speaker 4: Now the two of you at 21 and 22 have

1355
00:58:41,470 --> 00:58:45,870
Speaker 4: a big platform and you're thrown out there really quickly. What,

1356
00:58:45,930 --> 00:58:50,380
Speaker 4: what safeguards do you maybe build into your life just

1357
00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 4: to protect yourself in the long run from Satan's attack?

1358
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,790
Speaker 4: Because frankly, I think Satan's biggest lie is Islam. It

1359
00:58:59,790 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 4: has led more people away from the grace of God

1360
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,820
Speaker 4: and the character of God than anything else. And so

1361
00:59:07,820 --> 00:59:09,630
Speaker 4: we got this 21 year old come.

1362
00:59:09,510 --> 00:59:12,910
Speaker 3: Along your target. Number one, maybe target number two.

1363
00:59:13,450 --> 00:59:18,250
Speaker 4: So spiritually and intellectually and personally, what safeguards do you

1364
00:59:18,350 --> 00:59:22,110
Speaker 4: build into your life? Given that there's just so many

1365
00:59:22,190 --> 00:59:24,530
Speaker 4: temptations out there in the age in which we live.

1366
00:59:24,990 --> 00:59:27,490
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. I think I'm very lucky

1367
00:59:27,550 --> 00:59:31,830
Speaker 1: to have had a two years of, found a foundation

1368
00:59:31,890 --> 00:59:35,490
Speaker 1: in discipleship I think that the timing of my ministry

1369
00:59:35,530 --> 00:59:39,170
Speaker 1: blowing up online was very very fitting and like a

1370
00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:41,750
Speaker 1: few months before it would have been premature quote-unquote fame

1371
00:59:41,830 --> 00:59:45,890
Speaker 1: or premature responsibility so for the longest time it was

1372
00:59:45,910 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: just me and the word of God I didn't really

1373
00:59:47,900 --> 00:59:51,020
Speaker 1: get into apologetics too much not so much and then

1374
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,300
Speaker 1: it was also a lot of serving I just served

1375
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: a lot and I got the heart of God for

1376
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: people of all cultures and places and demographics and You know,

1377
01:00:01,070 --> 01:00:02,970
Speaker 1: I would scrub toilets at the YWAM base and then

1378
01:00:03,010 --> 01:00:05,390
Speaker 1: I would also help lead worship at the YWAM base.

1379
01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:08,250
Speaker 1: And both are equally important that I was involved in

1380
01:00:08,270 --> 01:00:09,930
Speaker 1: a lot of Bible schools in YWAM as well. And

1381
01:00:09,950 --> 01:00:12,390
Speaker 1: so I think that's really what gave me my foundation.

1382
01:00:12,890 --> 01:00:16,980
Speaker 1: And I'm so eternally grateful for them because they teach

1383
01:00:17,020 --> 01:00:20,220
Speaker 1: inductive Bible study method. And so what they gave me

1384
01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:23,300
Speaker 1: was tools to know how to study my word. And

1385
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,140
Speaker 1: I stay rooted in my word. I'm not the most

1386
01:00:27,220 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: perfect person at it, especially because there's so much to

1387
01:00:30,260 --> 01:00:33,060
Speaker 1: do and read and watch. But I do set time

1388
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,140
Speaker 1: apart to just stay rooted in the Word of God.

1389
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: And honestly, the most important book for apologetics is the Bible.

1390
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:39,700
Speaker 3: Amen.

1391
01:00:39,890 --> 01:00:42,090
Speaker 1: And I can see and I can tell that a

1392
01:00:42,550 --> 01:00:45,090
Speaker 1: lot of online apologists, not just apologists, but also influencers,

1393
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:48,370
Speaker 1: they're not very biblically literate. And there's levels to it, right?

1394
01:00:49,130 --> 01:00:51,669
Speaker 1: I'm probably far from yourself, but then there's also others that.

1395
01:00:51,790 --> 01:00:53,330
Speaker 3: You're pretty impressive, but keep going.

1396
01:00:53,570 --> 01:00:56,450
Speaker 1: Praise God. But I think that it is so vital.

1397
01:00:56,590 --> 01:01:01,540
Speaker 1: And I think what's made my apologetics journey so awesome

1398
01:01:01,620 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: is literally the Bible. I ate, slept, and breathed the

1399
01:01:05,620 --> 01:01:07,860
Speaker 1: Word of God for nine months total in my time

1400
01:01:07,900 --> 01:01:10,200
Speaker 1: in Wyoming because I did three three-month Bible schools with them.

1401
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,780
Speaker 1: And they do very intense, intense Bible studying and teaching.

1402
01:01:13,820 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 1: And so I think that's what really strengthens me. And also, I.

1403
01:01:22,110 --> 01:01:25,280
Speaker 1: One thing that I always... One of the biggest revelations

1404
01:01:25,340 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 1: I had in YWAM is when I did this three-month

1405
01:01:27,980 --> 01:01:30,300
Speaker 1: leadership school. And if there's one thing I took away

1406
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: from it is that your character will always be more

1407
01:01:32,980 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 1: important than your caliber. And that's not something I really understood.

1408
01:01:37,180 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: I understood it then, maybe here, but I'm seeing it

1409
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,300
Speaker 1: more now. I think the way you love people, the

1410
01:01:43,340 --> 01:01:47,260
Speaker 1: way you serve is so much more important than how

1411
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,410
Speaker 1: much you can actually bring to the table. If anything,

1412
01:01:49,430 --> 01:01:50,830
Speaker 1: I think that's the most you can bring to the table.

1413
01:01:51,410 --> 01:01:55,490
Speaker 1: And I think in my life, I've often forgot to

1414
01:01:55,530 --> 01:01:56,830
Speaker 1: just see the person in front of me and just

1415
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:59,490
Speaker 1: love them. I'm not even talking about like an evangelism setting.

1416
01:01:59,630 --> 01:02:01,939
Speaker 1: I'm talking about even the people I serve with. Even

1417
01:02:02,180 --> 01:02:05,380
Speaker 1: my friend who just needs me to... Maybe a frustrating

1418
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,180
Speaker 1: friend who is really testing my patience, my humility. I'm like, okay,

1419
01:02:08,780 --> 01:02:12,720
Speaker 1: if I cannot be humble here behind closed doors, then

1420
01:02:12,900 --> 01:02:15,340
Speaker 1: there's no reason for me to scream Christ in front

1421
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: of a camera. And that's something... With the nature of

1422
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:21,020
Speaker 1: what we do, I think it's very easy to live

1423
01:02:21,220 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: a quote-unquote double life where none of your followers will

1424
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:29,230
Speaker 1: ever suspect if you're harboring anger against someone or unforgiving someone.

1425
01:02:29,330 --> 01:02:31,810
Speaker 1: And anger and unforgiveness is something I struggle with. And

1426
01:02:31,830 --> 01:02:34,430
Speaker 1: so I'm constantly being like, God, check my heart, check

1427
01:02:34,450 --> 01:02:38,510
Speaker 1: my heart, check my heart. And I think making... Being

1428
01:02:38,610 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 1: before I do anything is actually going to make my

1429
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:42,140
Speaker 1: doing better. I don't know if that makes sense.

1430
01:02:42,460 --> 01:02:42,700
Speaker 3: It does.

1431
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,960
Speaker 1: Just being loved, making sure my heart is sanctified before God,

1432
01:02:46,900 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: before any cameras, before any type of leadership, that's going

1433
01:02:50,420 --> 01:02:53,460
Speaker 1: to make the night and day difference. And, well, that's

1434
01:02:53,500 --> 01:02:55,140
Speaker 1: the funny thing. What I found is it doesn't always

1435
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:57,100
Speaker 1: make the night and day difference, at least short term,

1436
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,700
Speaker 1: because I've not been in this for very long, where

1437
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: I can still see God blessing the fruit of my ministry,

1438
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:05,720
Speaker 1: even on my worst weeks of ministry. not being living

1439
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 1: very sanctified and just, uh, you know, having a hard

1440
01:03:09,180 --> 01:03:12,140
Speaker 1: week in terms of maybe sometimes even holiness or just

1441
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: my time with God. But I'm like, but he's, he's,

1442
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: he's not putting a pause on that. And so that

1443
01:03:16,300 --> 01:03:19,860
Speaker 1: almost worries me. Cause I'm like longterm, maybe it'll affect it.

1444
01:03:20,090 --> 01:03:22,990
Speaker 1: But I'm like, Lord, please keep my heart right. Because

1445
01:03:23,030 --> 01:03:24,110
Speaker 1: I don't want any of that. If I don't have,

1446
01:03:24,510 --> 01:03:25,350
Speaker 1: if my heart isn't here.

1447
01:03:25,610 --> 01:03:29,300
Speaker 4: I've done this long enough to know that a lot

1448
01:03:29,340 --> 01:03:33,280
Speaker 4: of people start strong and don't finish well. A lot

1449
01:03:33,300 --> 01:03:37,970
Speaker 4: of people, And I've seen deconstruction from pastors, some apologists,

1450
01:03:38,070 --> 01:03:40,590
Speaker 4: deconstruction in the way that you used it. Not somebody

1451
01:03:40,670 --> 01:03:43,270
Speaker 4: reforming their faith, but rejecting it.

1452
01:03:44,490 --> 01:03:45,290
Speaker 3: Musicians.

1453
01:03:45,950 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 4: And there's oftentimes a lot of factors that people that want.

1454
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 4: And these are just some of the common factors. People

1455
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,940
Speaker 4: didn't feel freedom to ask questions. People were not rooted

1456
01:03:56,100 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 4: in a church. Didn't have a mentor in their life.

1457
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,860
Speaker 4: And frankly, loved the applause and the platform there. And

1458
01:04:04,100 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 4: wanted the love of people and haven't read Luke, where

1459
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:12,700
Speaker 4: Luke is like, everybody loves Jesus until he speaks truth

1460
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:13,090
Speaker 4: to them.

1461
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,190
Speaker 3: And they turn on him. There's not a fear of

1462
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:17,230
Speaker 3: the Lord first.

1463
01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:19,910
Speaker 4: So I love that you've been staying in our family

1464
01:04:19,930 --> 01:04:22,410
Speaker 4: a few days. McDowell's, absolutely love you. We are here

1465
01:04:22,450 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 4: for you. Thrilled at what you're doing.

1466
01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sean.

1467
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 4: Just take it day by day. And trust in the

1468
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 4: Lord and get in the scriptures. I don't have a

1469
01:04:30,340 --> 01:04:32,050
Speaker 4: lot of regrets in my life, but in some ways

1470
01:04:32,090 --> 01:04:33,910
Speaker 4: I was thinking recently turned 50. I was like, there's

1471
01:04:33,970 --> 01:04:35,810
Speaker 4: probably a third of all the books that I read.

1472
01:04:35,870 --> 01:04:38,150
Speaker 4: I could just throw in the trash and have just

1473
01:04:38,230 --> 01:04:41,930
Speaker 4: read Romans 50 more times or Ezekiel 60 more times.

1474
01:04:42,010 --> 01:04:43,740
Speaker 3: Like, why did I even read that? That was a

1475
01:04:43,780 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 3: waste of time. And it's not a regret. I mean,

1476
01:04:46,580 --> 01:04:47,620
Speaker 3: it's just, it's the way it is.

1477
01:04:47,700 --> 01:04:51,420
Speaker 4: But what you said about being in the word, absolutely unmistakably.

1478
01:04:51,920 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 4: I'm not saying this to brag at all. But I

1479
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 4: was up at 430 this morning in the word, learning

1480
01:04:56,940 --> 01:04:59,340
Speaker 4: it and studying it. I want to know it more

1481
01:04:59,420 --> 01:05:01,500
Speaker 4: deeply than ever. And that's my heart for both of

1482
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,140
Speaker 4: you and for the next generation to know the scriptures.

1483
01:05:04,930 --> 01:05:06,010
Speaker 3: You love what you do, don't you?

1484
01:05:06,220 --> 01:05:06,450
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

1485
01:05:06,690 --> 01:05:06,930
Speaker 3: Why?

1486
01:05:08,730 --> 01:05:10,450
Speaker 1: The right answer would be like seeing the Muslims come

1487
01:05:10,490 --> 01:05:14,470
Speaker 1: to Christ. But I think that, you know what? I

1488
01:05:14,490 --> 01:05:17,390
Speaker 1: think it is. Well, the Bible school answer is because

1489
01:05:17,410 --> 01:05:20,830
Speaker 1: I'm a good and faithful servant and I just love

1490
01:05:21,270 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 1: preaching the gospel. but I think I love what I

1491
01:05:23,740 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 1: do because hold on. I don't want to, I don't

1492
01:05:27,220 --> 01:05:28,440
Speaker 1: want to ramble here. So like, give me like 10

1493
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,600
Speaker 1: seconds to answer you.

1494
01:05:33,490 --> 01:05:33,660
Speaker 4: Okay.

1495
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:36,550
Speaker 1: I got it. So I think it is very redemptive

1496
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:39,650
Speaker 1: of the good traits that I had when I had

1497
01:05:39,670 --> 01:05:42,030
Speaker 1: to lay my life down for Jesus. I gave up

1498
01:05:42,050 --> 01:05:44,169
Speaker 1: my career. I wanted to be a lawyer. I also

1499
01:05:44,210 --> 01:05:45,250
Speaker 1: wanted to join the FBI.

1500
01:05:45,950 --> 01:05:48,510
Speaker 3: Uh, You've been good at both, I can tell.

1501
01:05:48,660 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: I love arguing and talking and using my brain.

1502
01:05:52,180 --> 01:05:52,800
Speaker 3: I love learning.

1503
01:05:52,820 --> 01:05:54,380
Speaker 1: I just love it so much. I also used to

1504
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: be big in politics as well. And so I laid

1505
01:05:57,600 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: that all down, not because I thought it was bad,

1506
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,220
Speaker 1: but because it was so tied to my old identity.

1507
01:06:01,540 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: So I was like, well, God's not really going to

1508
01:06:03,180 --> 01:06:06,430
Speaker 1: use those skills anymore. And I think I love what

1509
01:06:06,450 --> 01:06:08,630
Speaker 1: I do because I see all the things I thought

1510
01:06:08,650 --> 01:06:10,790
Speaker 1: I had to leave behind, but he's redeemed every single

1511
01:06:10,830 --> 01:06:13,490
Speaker 1: one of those quote unquote skills. and gifts that I

1512
01:06:13,550 --> 01:06:16,570
Speaker 1: had to glorify his kingdom. And that is why I

1513
01:06:16,610 --> 01:06:19,450
Speaker 1: love what I do. And honestly, just the Muslims that

1514
01:06:19,470 --> 01:06:21,210
Speaker 1: I'm discipling, it just brings me so much. It gets

1515
01:06:21,370 --> 01:06:24,470
Speaker 1: frustrating sometimes, and there's times where, you know, you put

1516
01:06:24,490 --> 01:06:27,130
Speaker 1: in all that work, and it actually doesn't end up

1517
01:06:27,410 --> 01:06:30,220
Speaker 1: coming to fruition. But for the ones that do, every

1518
01:06:30,260 --> 01:06:31,220
Speaker 1: other one has been worth it.

1519
01:06:31,300 --> 01:06:32,940
Speaker 3: And here's the deal. You never know.

1520
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:34,979
Speaker 4: When I was teaching high school, I had a student

1521
01:06:35,020 --> 01:06:37,500
Speaker 4: come to me, and he goes, Mr. McDowell, what do

1522
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:39,340
Speaker 4: I have to do to get a C- in your class?

1523
01:06:40,380 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 4: Which he didn't mean it, but it basically means, I

1524
01:06:42,020 --> 01:06:43,700
Speaker 4: don't care about your class. I just need the minimal

1525
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 4: grade to get my driver's license.

1526
01:06:46,030 --> 01:06:47,950
Speaker 3: He left. I can't remember. I told him what he needed.

1527
01:06:48,070 --> 01:06:49,350
Speaker 4: Came back the next year. He's like, can I sit

1528
01:06:49,370 --> 01:06:54,340
Speaker 4: in your class? I was like, sure, but you're Mr. C-.

1529
01:06:54,130 --> 01:06:56,050
Speaker 4: Why do you want to sit in my class? He goes,

1530
01:06:56,170 --> 01:06:58,290
Speaker 4: now I'm at a local JC, and I'm getting challenged,

1531
01:06:58,330 --> 01:07:01,630
Speaker 4: and I realize this stuff is important. And I said, well,

1532
01:07:01,650 --> 01:07:03,210
Speaker 4: is there anything I could have done to help you

1533
01:07:03,230 --> 01:07:05,690
Speaker 4: get it then, what you see now? He goes, no,

1534
01:07:06,470 --> 01:07:08,330
Speaker 4: but I'll never forget it. He goes, but you're making

1535
01:07:08,350 --> 01:07:11,390
Speaker 4: more of a difference than you realize. your job is

1536
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:14,970
Speaker 4: to be faithful. You don't know what's in somebody's heart

1537
01:07:14,990 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 4: and how God might bring it back in 5, 10,

1538
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,330
Speaker 4: 20 years. Well done, my good and faithful servant. That

1539
01:07:20,370 --> 01:07:22,770
Speaker 4: is so freeing for me as an apologist when I preach.

1540
01:07:22,870 --> 01:07:24,650
Speaker 4: I can't change somebody's heart. I can't even get him

1541
01:07:24,690 --> 01:07:28,550
Speaker 4: to clean his room. I can't change anybody's heart, but

1542
01:07:28,590 --> 01:07:31,590
Speaker 4: I can be faithful with the gifts and the calling

1543
01:07:31,610 --> 01:07:33,260
Speaker 4: that God has on my life.

1544
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,180
Speaker 3: Last question for me. You might have some, Scotty.

1545
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:40,050
Speaker 4: Your story is just compelling, but There's some people both

1546
01:07:40,090 --> 01:07:41,990
Speaker 4: your age that listen to this podcast and track, but

1547
01:07:42,010 --> 01:07:46,030
Speaker 4: there's a number of people, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s

1548
01:07:46,130 --> 01:07:49,340
Speaker 4: and plus who watch this. What would you want them

1549
01:07:49,430 --> 01:07:53,780
Speaker 4: to know about your generation, about your ministry, how things

1550
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,180
Speaker 4: are changed, how they can pray for you? What would

1551
01:07:57,220 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 4: you want the older generation to know? Because things are

1552
01:07:59,980 --> 01:08:01,420
Speaker 4: not the way they used to be.

1553
01:08:01,460 --> 01:08:03,740
Speaker 3: And sometimes it's maybe hard to accept that.

1554
01:08:04,380 --> 01:08:06,660
Speaker 4: But how can we come around and support people like

1555
01:08:06,700 --> 01:08:08,050
Speaker 4: you doing the kind of work you described?

1556
01:08:08,740 --> 01:08:11,380
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say for one, the ones who do

1557
01:08:11,420 --> 01:08:16,040
Speaker 1: have children, I would say to really disciple them into

1558
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:22,050
Speaker 1: biblical literacy. And honestly, don't expect making your children going

1559
01:08:22,070 --> 01:08:25,510
Speaker 1: to church every Sunday to be discipleship. It's not. And

1560
01:08:25,530 --> 01:08:28,450
Speaker 1: I would say allow your children to ask questions and

1561
01:08:28,590 --> 01:08:31,730
Speaker 1: be ready to answer. I wish my parents had done that.

1562
01:08:32,550 --> 01:08:34,330
Speaker 1: And I love them to death, but that's one of

1563
01:08:34,370 --> 01:08:35,930
Speaker 1: the things I wish. I think it would have saved

1564
01:08:35,970 --> 01:08:39,730
Speaker 1: me a lot of time and trouble, truthfully. And definitely

1565
01:08:39,750 --> 01:08:42,660
Speaker 1: be praying over our generation and championing us is huge.

1566
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: Offering your mentorship, offering resources, and just speaking words of

1567
01:08:47,380 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 1: life into our generation. We are a generation that is

1568
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:53,099
Speaker 1: deeply insecure, deeply self-doubtful, or swings the other way into

1569
01:08:53,150 --> 01:08:56,110
Speaker 1: pride and ego and ignorance. And so just speaking words

1570
01:08:56,130 --> 01:09:00,440
Speaker 1: of life into us and just being here to champion us. to,

1571
01:09:01,060 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 1: I guess, take the reins. I mean, social media is

1572
01:09:02,620 --> 01:09:05,390
Speaker 1: a powerful, powerful, powerful tool. And I think it is

1573
01:09:06,090 --> 01:09:09,290
Speaker 1: quite literally the Gutenberg press of today. And so I

1574
01:09:09,330 --> 01:09:14,950
Speaker 1: think not diminishing the passion of our generation and just

1575
01:09:15,110 --> 01:09:18,490
Speaker 1: putting them as high up and supporting us as much

1576
01:09:18,510 --> 01:09:20,190
Speaker 1: as possible, letting us stand on your shoulders.

1577
01:09:20,710 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 3: There's a lot of critique of Gen Z and millennials.

1578
01:09:23,490 --> 01:09:25,019
Speaker 3: They're lazy and entitled.

1579
01:09:25,140 --> 01:09:28,620
Speaker 4: And, you know, the two of you are clearly putting

1580
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 4: that claim to shame and showing it's not remotely true.

1581
01:09:32,620 --> 01:09:35,800
Speaker 4: So if there's any older generations watching this, you should

1582
01:09:35,860 --> 01:09:38,680
Speaker 4: be encouraged about the younger generation and pray for them,

1583
01:09:38,740 --> 01:09:41,510
Speaker 4: support your ministry and Scotty, did I miss anything in

1584
01:09:41,530 --> 01:09:42,990
Speaker 4: your last questions or comments?

1585
01:09:43,010 --> 01:09:43,630
Speaker 3: This is great.

1586
01:09:43,750 --> 01:09:45,170
Speaker 1: Can I say a little bit about our online ministry?

1587
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 3: Please, yeah, do it.

1588
01:09:45,950 --> 01:09:48,650
Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you want to learn devout apologetics to

1589
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:52,939
Speaker 1: reach the most, most devout Muslims, the link is actually

1590
01:09:52,979 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 1: on my website, belluministries.com, and it's going to lead you into.

1591
01:09:56,060 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 3: Spell it.

1592
01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:05,780
Speaker 1: Okay, B-E-L-L-E-L-I-U ministries.com. And that link is going to take

1593
01:10:05,820 --> 01:10:10,140
Speaker 1: you to our online school called Christ Underground. And we

1594
01:10:10,180 --> 01:10:12,100
Speaker 1: have about 18,000 members online working.

1595
01:10:12,820 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 2: Wow.

1596
01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:15,700
Speaker 1: Learning with us right now. And we have local teams

1597
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: all over the place. I myself will be planning the

1598
01:10:17,460 --> 01:10:20,010
Speaker 1: local team in London. in a month and so we

1599
01:10:20,050 --> 01:10:22,490
Speaker 1: have in-person events we have online I teach on there

1600
01:10:22,570 --> 01:10:26,170
Speaker 1: my amazing mentors Alex Kremley and Greg Armstrong also teach

1601
01:10:26,670 --> 01:10:29,410
Speaker 1: also this was I'm co-founding this with Shah Khan he

1602
01:10:29,430 --> 01:10:31,840
Speaker 1: started this whole thing he's an ex-Muslim go check out

1603
01:10:31,900 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: his stuff as well and you guys should totally have

1604
01:10:33,340 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: him on as well to talk about

1605
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:36,780
Speaker 4: It's amazing send me his stuff and we'll take a

1606
01:10:36,780 --> 01:10:39,340
Speaker 4: look at it well done super proud of you honored

1607
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 4: to have you on this has been a treat awesome

1608
01:10:42,189 --> 01:10:42,390
Speaker 4: thank you