1 00:00:02,710 --> 00:00:03,690 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,830 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 2: You can move through an entire day without ever quite 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: being present in it. Your body is in one place, 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,940 Speaker 2: your mind is somewhere else, and your attention keeps being 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,180 Speaker 2: pulled toward whatever comes next. Hello, friends. I'm Alan Fadling, 6 00:00:20,230 --> 00:00:22,950 Speaker 2: and you're listening to the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we 7 00:00:23,010 --> 00:00:27,250 Speaker 2: inspire you to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. 8 00:00:27,990 --> 00:00:33,380 Speaker 2: My guest today, Jay Kim, names this experience... absence. And 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: he believes one of the great invitations of life with 10 00:00:36,140 --> 00:00:41,070 Speaker 2: God is to recover our capacity to be present, present 11 00:00:41,110 --> 00:00:44,810 Speaker 2: to God, present to ourselves, and present to the people 12 00:00:44,930 --> 00:00:49,230 Speaker 2: right in front of us. Jay's new book is The 13 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:54,570 Speaker 2: Pace of Peace, Distraction, Attention, and the Gifts of an 14 00:00:54,650 --> 00:00:58,630 Speaker 2: Examined Life. Drawing on the ancient practice of the Ignatian examen, 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: Jay offers a way of moving from distraction toward attention, 16 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:09,260 Speaker 2: from reactivity toward reflection, and from striving and control toward 17 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 2: gratitude and trust. As you know, I love this language 18 00:01:14,459 --> 00:01:20,500 Speaker 2: of pace. Pace is journey language. It reminds us that 19 00:01:20,610 --> 00:01:25,289 Speaker 2: following Jesus isn't a collection of disconnected spiritual moments. It 20 00:01:25,370 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 2: is instead a way of walking with him one attentive 21 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 2: step after another. But first, a brief word from our sponsor. 22 00:01:43,110 --> 00:01:45,950 Speaker 2: If you're enjoying the podcast, I'd love for you to 23 00:01:46,069 --> 00:01:50,110 Speaker 2: follow or subscribe. And if you're watching on YouTube, please 24 00:01:50,170 --> 00:01:53,430 Speaker 2: subscribe there as well. It's free, and it keeps you 25 00:01:53,490 --> 00:01:56,850 Speaker 2: connected with us, and it helps more people discover the 26 00:01:56,910 --> 00:02:01,860 Speaker 2: Unhurried Living Podcast. My guest today is Jay Kim. Jay 27 00:02:01,940 --> 00:02:06,540 Speaker 2: serves as lead pastor at Westgate, a multi-congregational church in 28 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: Silicon Valley. He has spent two decades in local church 29 00:02:10,660 --> 00:02:14,500 Speaker 2: ministry in the San Francisco Bay Area, and he serves 30 00:02:14,580 --> 00:02:18,060 Speaker 2: on the board of Practicing the Way. He is also 31 00:02:18,100 --> 00:02:22,410 Speaker 2: the host of the Digital Examine podcast and Barna's Making 32 00:02:22,510 --> 00:02:27,470 Speaker 2: Space podcast. Jay is the author of Analog Church and 33 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:33,260 Speaker 2: and Analog Christian, books that explored how the speed, distraction, 34 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 2: and disembodiment of our digital age are shaping our churches 35 00:02:37,820 --> 00:02:40,970 Speaker 2: and our lives with God. In this, his newest book, 36 00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:45,290 Speaker 2: The Pace of Peace, he takes the next step. Rather 37 00:02:45,330 --> 00:02:50,270 Speaker 2: than simply diagnosing our distracted condition, Jay offers a way 38 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:58,739 Speaker 2: forward through the five movements of the Ignatian Examen— presence, gratitude, Reflection, confession, 39 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: and seeking God's will. I found myself especially drawn to 40 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,820 Speaker 2: Jay's reflections on attention, discernment, and the gift of looking 41 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,150 Speaker 2: back over our lives with God. We don't become wise 42 00:03:12,270 --> 00:03:17,270 Speaker 2: simply by accumulating experiences. We grow in wisdom as we 43 00:03:17,310 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: learn to notice, reflect, discern, and then respond to God's 44 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:26,450 Speaker 2: presence and activity in the midst of those experiences. I 45 00:03:26,490 --> 00:03:29,290 Speaker 2: think you'll find Jay to be a thoughtful and gracious 46 00:03:29,350 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 2: companion in learning to live a more attentive life with God. 47 00:03:34,290 --> 00:03:40,100 Speaker 2: So Jay, thanks so much for making some time for 48 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: the podcast today. It's, it's nice to have another visit. 49 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,970 Speaker 1: Oh, of course, Alan. Yeah. Any chance I get to 50 00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:50,490 Speaker 1: chat with you is a joy and you already know, 51 00:03:50,650 --> 00:03:53,310 Speaker 1: but you know, your listeners should know your work has 52 00:03:53,350 --> 00:03:57,500 Speaker 1: been a, such a formative help and inspiration to my life. 53 00:03:57,540 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's an honor. 54 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,710 Speaker 2: Wonderful. Well, it's a great treat for me too. I've 55 00:04:02,910 --> 00:04:08,510 Speaker 2: always enjoyed your voice, your message, the spirit of how 56 00:04:08,530 --> 00:04:12,470 Speaker 2: you share what you share. And I really enjoyed reading this, 57 00:04:12,490 --> 00:04:15,370 Speaker 2: your latest book, The Pace of Peace. Of course, I 58 00:04:15,490 --> 00:04:19,170 Speaker 2: love the language of pace. And so to be able 59 00:04:19,190 --> 00:04:22,010 Speaker 2: to have a book that really leans into that, what 60 00:04:22,089 --> 00:04:25,850 Speaker 2: would the pace of peace look like? So As I 61 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:29,010 Speaker 2: think about that, you know, I often think about how 62 00:04:29,070 --> 00:04:32,620 Speaker 2: the early Christians were known as people of the way. 63 00:04:33,860 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 2: But I think way and pace are both journey words. 64 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 2: And so I would love for you to just maybe 65 00:04:42,779 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: unpack what does the word pace help you say about 66 00:04:46,540 --> 00:04:51,940 Speaker 2: what following Jesus looks and feels like these days? Yeah. Yeah. 67 00:04:53,450 --> 00:04:55,469 Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I think about the people 68 00:04:55,570 --> 00:04:59,390 Speaker 1: in my life, both friends and family, and I think 69 00:04:59,470 --> 00:05:04,219 Speaker 1: about the congregants in our church who are also dear friends, 70 00:05:04,300 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: many of them, just people that I love. And even just, 71 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: you know, people who are acquaintances, you know, the other 72 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,950 Speaker 1: dads on my son's little league baseball team that I 73 00:05:15,029 --> 00:05:19,990 Speaker 1: coach with, these guys who are becoming friends slowly over time. 74 00:05:20,779 --> 00:05:23,300 Speaker 1: You know, I live, as you know, I live in 75 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:26,220 Speaker 1: Silicon Valley, you know, the heart of a sort of 76 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:31,100 Speaker 1: tech epicenter. And like most of the world, it's a 77 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:36,740 Speaker 1: very fast paced place, but unique from most of the world. Yeah. 78 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:44,900 Speaker 1: The speed is unrelenting. Everybody feels behind. As a pastor, 79 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,339 Speaker 1: I have a front row seat to sort of one 80 00:05:47,420 --> 00:05:51,500 Speaker 1: layer of honesty beneath the surface level that most people 81 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,710 Speaker 1: put off and project to others. And when I meet 82 00:05:54,770 --> 00:05:57,950 Speaker 1: with people in moments of crisis or if they're on 83 00:05:57,990 --> 00:06:03,250 Speaker 1: a quest, whatever it might be, almost everyone talks about 84 00:06:03,450 --> 00:06:08,060 Speaker 1: how life is moving too fast. And yet they don't feel, 85 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,060 Speaker 1: they don't seem to, they can't see a way out, 86 00:06:11,220 --> 00:06:15,110 Speaker 1: you know? They just, they've sort of resigned themselves to 87 00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:19,150 Speaker 1: the pace of the world in which they live. And yet, 88 00:06:19,330 --> 00:06:25,290 Speaker 1: also universally, basically everyone says, I wish I could live 89 00:06:25,330 --> 00:06:30,169 Speaker 1: at a different pace. And when I extrapolate that further, 90 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: what typically comes out of people is they want to 91 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,310 Speaker 1: live at a pace of leisure. Again, because of where 92 00:06:37,410 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: I am, because there is a lot of disposable income 93 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:48,420 Speaker 1: for people, leisure is a regular part of the lives 94 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: of many of the people that I know. What's interesting 95 00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:55,660 Speaker 1: is they almost never feel more at rest. It's just 96 00:06:55,700 --> 00:07:00,669 Speaker 1: they had another great vacation or whatever, another great excursion, 97 00:07:00,730 --> 00:07:03,210 Speaker 1: but they sort of come back to the same life 98 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: in the same sort of state of being, and then 99 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: they're confounded and confused. And one of the things I've 100 00:07:10,820 --> 00:07:12,940 Speaker 1: come to recognize in my own life through my own 101 00:07:13,020 --> 00:07:16,710 Speaker 1: struggle with living at pace is that, you know, you 102 00:07:16,750 --> 00:07:21,730 Speaker 1: know this, Alan, peace is not really about leisure, biblically speaking. 103 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:28,420 Speaker 1: The Hebrew word shalom is really a very relational word. 104 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: It's about equity. It's about well-being within the context of 105 00:07:31,980 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: our relation to the other. When I talk about the 106 00:07:35,140 --> 00:07:38,390 Speaker 1: pace of peace, I'm not talking about a more leisurely life. 107 00:07:39,110 --> 00:07:42,210 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about, hey, let's just do less or 108 00:07:42,310 --> 00:07:46,250 Speaker 1: binge more Netflix shows. The pace of peace really is 109 00:07:46,330 --> 00:07:50,670 Speaker 1: the pace of deep meaningful communion with a God who 110 00:07:50,750 --> 00:07:56,220 Speaker 1: moves at the speed of love. And love is the key. 111 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: It is to a meaningful life as a life that 112 00:07:59,500 --> 00:08:02,140 Speaker 1: is able to receive love and then give that love 113 00:08:02,580 --> 00:08:05,780 Speaker 1: to God and to the world and to others within 114 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,060 Speaker 1: our proximity. So in short, that's what the pace of 115 00:08:09,100 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: peace is for me. It's not necessarily even about momentarily 116 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 1: slowing down, or a getaway for the weekend. It is 117 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,700 Speaker 1: about living at the pace of deep communion with God, 118 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,620 Speaker 1: moving at His speed, moving at His pace, which for 119 00:08:25,660 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: most of us, most of the time is much slower 120 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: than we would naturally like to go. And that is 121 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: the most significant adjustment probably for most of us living 122 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:38,060 Speaker 1: in the modern world. 123 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:43,610 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I appreciate you know, 124 00:08:43,650 --> 00:08:49,569 Speaker 2: your description of a longing that seems impossible. Like, wouldn't 125 00:08:49,610 --> 00:08:53,750 Speaker 2: it be nice if, and yet my own experience, you know, 126 00:08:53,990 --> 00:08:57,410 Speaker 2: is that this may be the very thing Jesus is 127 00:08:57,470 --> 00:09:02,460 Speaker 2: in fact, inviting us to that being his apprentices. Part 128 00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:05,940 Speaker 2: of that is about taking on his way, taking on 129 00:09:06,059 --> 00:09:10,860 Speaker 2: his pace, the pace of presence or the pace of love, 130 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,740 Speaker 2: as you've said, or, The pace of peace, as your 131 00:09:13,780 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: book is titled. And I think one of the implications 132 00:09:16,580 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 2: of pace, I'd love for you to think about this, 133 00:09:18,179 --> 00:09:24,070 Speaker 2: is pace sort of suggests a connection of moments and 134 00:09:24,110 --> 00:09:27,490 Speaker 2: experiences one to another. But when we're in a hurry, 135 00:09:27,530 --> 00:09:30,630 Speaker 2: it just feels like we're having this life full of 136 00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:35,530 Speaker 2: disconnected events. And we don't see the connections. We don't 137 00:09:35,630 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: see the path. We don't see the journey. Can you 138 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:41,810 Speaker 2: talk a little more about that possibility for us? 139 00:09:45,059 --> 00:09:48,140 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a wonderful thought. I'm in total agreement. I 140 00:09:48,179 --> 00:09:53,780 Speaker 1: think one of the ideas that's been ruminating for me, 141 00:09:54,570 --> 00:09:58,449 Speaker 1: not as a sort of intellectual idea, but through lived experience, 142 00:09:58,630 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: I came to the point a number of years ago 143 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:08,020 Speaker 1: where I realized a deep life and a fast life 144 00:10:08,620 --> 00:10:13,780 Speaker 1: are incongruent. They cannot coexist. And so through a series 145 00:10:13,820 --> 00:10:18,969 Speaker 1: of circumstances that involved my marriage, my parenting, and my pastoring, 146 00:10:19,830 --> 00:10:22,550 Speaker 1: all of it together, I found myself a number of 147 00:10:22,610 --> 00:10:26,370 Speaker 1: years ago needing to make a decision. I could continue 148 00:10:26,510 --> 00:10:33,410 Speaker 1: living a fast life, accomplishing much and accomplishing it quickly, 149 00:10:33,429 --> 00:10:37,730 Speaker 1: or I can choose to live a deep life, which 150 00:10:37,809 --> 00:10:43,310 Speaker 1: is much slower. Much of that sort of life is hidden. 151 00:10:44,270 --> 00:10:49,449 Speaker 1: It happens in unseen places and in unseen ways. a 152 00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:55,829 Speaker 1: deep life I've discovered often feels idle, especially for someone 153 00:10:55,870 --> 00:10:59,390 Speaker 1: like me who's lived his entire life in Silicon Valley, 154 00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:03,340 Speaker 1: just surrounded by movers and shakers and startup culture. And 155 00:11:03,550 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: everybody's trying to disrupt some industry and build a new product. 156 00:11:08,220 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: And it's just a deep life is much... We just 157 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: recently lost the great Wendell Berry. And a deep life 158 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:20,190 Speaker 1: is much more It's much more like farming. It's much 159 00:11:20,270 --> 00:11:24,550 Speaker 1: more like agriculture. And Barry and others have written extensively 160 00:11:24,630 --> 00:11:27,270 Speaker 1: about how the spiritual life is very much like that. 161 00:11:27,710 --> 00:11:33,460 Speaker 1: You have such little control. I do not control whether 162 00:11:33,500 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: the sun rises tomorrow or not. I do not control 163 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,100 Speaker 1: when the rain will fall. So what do I do? 164 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: I plant little seeds hidden in the darkness of the 165 00:11:42,940 --> 00:11:45,940 Speaker 1: soil and I wait. And that is a deep life. 166 00:11:46,850 --> 00:11:49,069 Speaker 1: But a deep life is the only sort of life 167 00:11:49,530 --> 00:11:54,110 Speaker 1: that can grow real fruit. You cannot microwave an orange. 168 00:11:54,570 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: You just have to wait for the tree to give 169 00:11:57,150 --> 00:12:00,820 Speaker 1: you oranges. And I think that's a choice before us. 170 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,740 Speaker 1: And for me, this is something I talk about quite 171 00:12:04,780 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: a bit in the book, but one of the first steps, 172 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:10,949 Speaker 1: one of the earliest steps I had to take in 173 00:12:11,290 --> 00:12:15,820 Speaker 1: actually embodying my decision to live a deep life was 174 00:12:15,860 --> 00:12:20,199 Speaker 1: to pay careful attention to my attention and to reckon 175 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,820 Speaker 1: with the reality of just how distracted I was. In 176 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,270 Speaker 1: other words, what I discovered was the speed of my 177 00:12:28,370 --> 00:12:33,610 Speaker 1: very fast life was not beginning first and foremost with 178 00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:37,230 Speaker 1: my task list or my calendar. It was happening in 179 00:12:37,270 --> 00:12:43,090 Speaker 1: the fracturing and scattering of my attentions. And I'm still 180 00:12:43,150 --> 00:12:45,510 Speaker 1: tempted to do this, by the way. I've not mastered anything. 181 00:12:45,850 --> 00:12:49,570 Speaker 1: I'm a pilgrim on the journey like the rest. But 182 00:12:49,610 --> 00:12:53,670 Speaker 1: I've learned to pay much more attention to my attention, 183 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:57,230 Speaker 1: to focus it, to offer it as a gift, as 184 00:12:57,290 --> 00:13:02,460 Speaker 1: an extension of love. M. Scott Peck talks about how 185 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: attention is the form that love takes in the world. 186 00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: And to become a person of love is to become 187 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: a person... who is attentive to God and to life 188 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: and to others. 189 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 2: After the break, I'll continue my conversation with Jay Kim. Yeah, 190 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:28,010 Speaker 2: I love that. I think there's so much in our 191 00:13:28,570 --> 00:13:34,170 Speaker 2: current climate that is training us for less and less attention, 192 00:13:34,250 --> 00:13:37,010 Speaker 2: the capacity for long attention. 193 00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:38,069 Speaker 1: Yep. 194 00:13:38,730 --> 00:13:41,370 Speaker 2: I think that's one of the challenges for us is how, 195 00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:44,470 Speaker 2: how will we respond to these attempts to train us? 196 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:50,020 Speaker 2: And will we find a way to train differently? You know, 197 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,140 Speaker 2: in the spirit of what you're sharing and we, and 198 00:13:53,179 --> 00:13:59,340 Speaker 2: we learn how to, uh, extend our attention and focus 199 00:13:59,420 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: our attention where we mean to, where we want to. 200 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:05,540 Speaker 2: As I read the book, you start the book with 201 00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:08,990 Speaker 2: kind of a striking story about, you know, rear-ending another 202 00:14:09,020 --> 00:14:11,570 Speaker 2: car while you were in the car, but your mind 203 00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:14,330 Speaker 2: was sort of elsewhere. You know, eventually you say that, 204 00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:17,510 Speaker 2: you know, distraction, this is your definition, I love it. 205 00:14:18,170 --> 00:14:24,330 Speaker 2: Distraction is the embodied expression of absence. Ouch, right? And 206 00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:27,070 Speaker 2: I've thought a lot about how We speak of practicing 207 00:14:27,110 --> 00:14:29,850 Speaker 2: the presence of God, but I've got some bad habits 208 00:14:29,890 --> 00:14:34,470 Speaker 2: of practicing the absence of God just too often. I 209 00:14:34,490 --> 00:14:36,970 Speaker 2: wonder if you can kind of think out loud about 210 00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:40,430 Speaker 2: that reality of distraction that you've just described a moment ago. 211 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,980 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I love that line you just said, which 212 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,900 Speaker 1: I actually heard originally from you and learned so much 213 00:14:48,980 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: about that, you know, practicing the absence of God, because 214 00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:56,910 Speaker 1: It puts language to something that I think viscerally so 215 00:14:56,970 --> 00:15:00,250 Speaker 1: many of us followers of Jesus, when you hear the phrase, 216 00:15:00,830 --> 00:15:05,770 Speaker 1: practicing the absence, it's like, oh, you know, like painfully, 217 00:15:05,790 --> 00:15:09,810 Speaker 1: there's this admission. I know exactly what that's like. And 218 00:15:09,850 --> 00:15:14,979 Speaker 1: in fact, the majority of my experience of God is that. 219 00:15:15,340 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: It's the practice of the absence of God, you know, 220 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:24,290 Speaker 1: and It's pretty clear at this point through the cognitive 221 00:15:24,330 --> 00:15:33,100 Speaker 1: sciences that attention and cognitive capacity is a very finite thing. 222 00:15:33,790 --> 00:15:38,660 Speaker 1: You don't have endless wells of attention. The brain is 223 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: a muscle. The heart is a muscle. Your entire body 224 00:15:41,540 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 1: is a muscle. When you give your attention to something 225 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:49,460 Speaker 1: or to someone... It's working, all of it. The integrated 226 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,620 Speaker 1: whole is working very hard. So you can imagine running 227 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: or jogging or even walking on a treadmill or going 228 00:15:56,340 --> 00:16:00,580 Speaker 1: on a hike. You cannot go forever. And your attention 229 00:16:00,660 --> 00:16:06,550 Speaker 1: works almost exactly like that. It's finite. And I think 230 00:16:06,890 --> 00:16:10,710 Speaker 1: particularly in the digital age, particularly in the age of 231 00:16:10,770 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: social media, when really we have... These small little black 232 00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 1: boxes we carry around in our back pockets, which are 233 00:16:18,100 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: intentionally designed as distraction machines. The apps of choice are monetarily, 234 00:16:28,220 --> 00:16:33,210 Speaker 1: financially incentivized to grab your attention. And they are all 235 00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:36,950 Speaker 1: competing on the marketplace of our attention, which is why 236 00:16:36,970 --> 00:16:39,730 Speaker 1: a lot of social commentators call the digital age the 237 00:16:39,870 --> 00:16:45,740 Speaker 1: attention economy. So just awareness of the fact that every 238 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: morning when we wake up, we are waking up to 239 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: a world that is running on mechanisms designed to steal 240 00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:02,350 Speaker 1: our attention. And if attention is one of the ways 241 00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:05,350 Speaker 1: that we receive and give love, you can think about 242 00:17:05,810 --> 00:17:09,409 Speaker 1: the long, slow, loving gaze of a mother toward a 243 00:17:09,450 --> 00:17:14,100 Speaker 1: newborn infant, you know? before smartphones and Instagram and all 244 00:17:14,140 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: of that. You hold the newborn and what, you know, 245 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: when the baby's born, what do they do? It's skin 246 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: to skin touch. And you hold the child and there 247 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:30,379 Speaker 1: is neurologically, psychologically, physiologically, biologically, all sorts of connective stuff 248 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: happening in that sort of attentive love and care between 249 00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:39,300 Speaker 1: parent and child. I mean, none of that changes as 250 00:17:39,340 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: we get older. Kurt Thompson, the Christian psychiatrist, has that 251 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,820 Speaker 1: beautiful line that every person is born into the world 252 00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:52,230 Speaker 1: looking for someone looking for them. It's interesting. We open 253 00:17:52,290 --> 00:17:54,910 Speaker 1: our phones and we give the gift of our attention 254 00:17:54,990 --> 00:17:58,970 Speaker 1: to our feeds. All the while, as humans, what we're 255 00:17:59,010 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: actually looking for is someone to give their loving attention 256 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,450 Speaker 1: to us. The apps of choice will never do that 257 00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:13,180 Speaker 1: for you. More recently, contemporarily, with AI, people are saying 258 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: AI now is moving us from an attention economy to 259 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,100 Speaker 1: an attachment economy. We are now attaching to these machines. 260 00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: Therapy counseling is one of the highest use cases of 261 00:18:27,180 --> 00:18:30,430 Speaker 1: AI amongst young people today. It's mostly what they go 262 00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: to AI for, companionship and friendships. And I just think 263 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: all of that, one, speaks to human longing that only 264 00:18:39,340 --> 00:18:45,619 Speaker 1: God and image-bearing humans can actually satisfy and fulfill. And two, 265 00:18:45,930 --> 00:18:49,970 Speaker 1: it speaks to the great need for all of us to, again, 266 00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:54,969 Speaker 1: pay attention to our attention. And what is it that 267 00:18:55,010 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 1: we are giving our attention to? And If we are 268 00:18:58,220 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: not intentional about what we give our attention to, then 269 00:19:02,780 --> 00:19:06,740 Speaker 1: by nature, it will be co-opted by whatever is on 270 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,899 Speaker 1: our feed or right in front of us that is 271 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,169 Speaker 1: competing for our attention, which in some ways is to 272 00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:16,290 Speaker 1: say it is competing for our love. 273 00:19:18,590 --> 00:19:24,750 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is very sneaky stuff. And the question becomes, 274 00:19:24,950 --> 00:19:29,750 Speaker 2: can we be awake to that reality? Um, can we, uh, 275 00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:34,820 Speaker 2: can we find a way to have a sort of protest, 276 00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: you know, response to some of those dynamics that rather 277 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,980 Speaker 2: than letting someone else make decisions about our attention and 278 00:19:44,050 --> 00:19:47,890 Speaker 2: we make some decisions, some pre-decisions about where we will 279 00:19:47,970 --> 00:19:49,980 Speaker 2: and will not and how we will or will not. 280 00:19:50,820 --> 00:19:55,620 Speaker 2: offer our attention. And I think, you know, that going 281 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,820 Speaker 2: all the way, early in the book, you talk about 282 00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: God's question to Adam and Eve, you know, that question 283 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 2: of where are you, which isn't a location question as 284 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: much as it is a presence question. And there are 285 00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: attention implications there. 286 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: Too. 287 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,700 Speaker 2: So what might it look like to hear God ask 288 00:20:13,740 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 2: that question of us in an ordinary day today? 289 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:23,090 Speaker 1: Yeah, gosh. Well, the first thought that comes to mind 290 00:20:24,130 --> 00:20:29,910 Speaker 1: is that for sure, we will not accidentally hear God 291 00:20:30,090 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: asking us that question. You will not stumble into God 292 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,020 Speaker 1: asking that question. And at the same time, more hopefully, 293 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 1: and this is conjecture, and I do not mean it literally, 294 00:20:45,660 --> 00:20:48,910 Speaker 1: I mean it more from the perspective of God's ongoing 295 00:20:49,010 --> 00:20:53,709 Speaker 1: posture of love toward us. I think it's safe to say, 296 00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:58,910 Speaker 1: one can argue theologically and otherwise, that God is asking 297 00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:04,070 Speaker 1: us that question, where are you, all the time. I 298 00:21:04,170 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: think he's asking us That question, where are you, anytime 299 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:15,310 Speaker 1: we are not living in deep abiding awareness of his 300 00:21:15,609 --> 00:21:18,410 Speaker 1: ongoing loving presence, which is as near as our very 301 00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:24,109 Speaker 1: next breath. It's one of the reasons why people love 302 00:21:24,410 --> 00:21:29,740 Speaker 1: Brother Lawrence. I think in part people love Brother Lawrence 303 00:21:29,859 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: because when you read him, People who've not read Practicing 304 00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,820 Speaker 1: the Presence by Brother Lawrence, if you don't know his backstory, 305 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people make these at our church. They've 306 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: heard of Brother Lawrence and Practicing the Presence, so then 307 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:49,180 Speaker 1: they envision Brother Lawrence as some like a Gandalf with 308 00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 1: a long beard sitting up on top of a monastery 309 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,220 Speaker 1: up on a hillside, just watching the sunset every morning 310 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,530 Speaker 1: and drinking tea or something. And then they're surprised to 311 00:22:00,590 --> 00:22:04,070 Speaker 1: know that he mostly washed dishes most days. And then 312 00:22:04,550 --> 00:22:06,910 Speaker 1: when his body got too frail to do that, he 313 00:22:07,010 --> 00:22:09,510 Speaker 1: sort of like fixed the sandals of the other monks. 314 00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: And he didn't do that after he practiced the presence 315 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: or before he practiced the presence. The point is he 316 00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 1: was bearing witness to the loving presence of God as 317 00:22:21,020 --> 00:22:24,290 Speaker 1: he washed the dishes and as he fixed the sandals. 318 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:32,030 Speaker 1: And that is the gift. That's I think that that's 319 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:38,510 Speaker 1: the invitation. Can we learn to understand and then experience 320 00:22:38,609 --> 00:22:47,290 Speaker 1: God's presence, not as a reality possibility that is accessible 321 00:22:47,810 --> 00:22:51,590 Speaker 1: when the conditions are right, but can we learn to 322 00:22:52,090 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: live with deep awareness of God's ongoing, loving, abiding presence 323 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:03,490 Speaker 1: at all times? when the conditions are not optimal, you know? 324 00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:07,169 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons that matters so much is 325 00:23:07,230 --> 00:23:13,420 Speaker 1: because 99% of the time in your life, conditions will not, 326 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:18,860 Speaker 1: they will be suboptimal to experiencing the loving, at pace, 327 00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:24,540 Speaker 1: peaceful presence of God. And so if we allow ourselves 328 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,150 Speaker 1: to just wait for optimal circumstances man, we will live 329 00:23:29,190 --> 00:23:34,409 Speaker 1: a life void of awareness, void of our attention going 330 00:23:34,450 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: in the right direction. So I think that's the key. 331 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,899 Speaker 1: Learning to notice God when you're washing the dishes or 332 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: picking up the kids from school or doing the taxes 333 00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: or whatever it might be. 334 00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:50,540 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so well said. I mean, In a sense, 335 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: what you're saying is the optimal circumstance in which to 336 00:23:55,060 --> 00:23:58,900 Speaker 2: learn how to practice God's presence is your life right 337 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,360 Speaker 2: now exactly as you see it. There is not some 338 00:24:03,460 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: other life that if you had that one, then you 339 00:24:06,780 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 2: can figure this out. But right in Silicon Valley, with 340 00:24:11,070 --> 00:24:17,689 Speaker 2: your job and your supervisor and your organizational values, you could, 341 00:24:17,790 --> 00:24:22,700 Speaker 2: Jesus could teach you how. to cultivate this sort of life. I, 342 00:24:23,230 --> 00:24:26,790 Speaker 2: I find that hopeful doesn't make it simple or easy, 343 00:24:27,650 --> 00:24:31,470 Speaker 2: makes it challenging, but it makes it possible. I think 344 00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:33,500 Speaker 2: that's a beautiful, it's a beautiful thing. 345 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: I love what you just said, Alan, there is not 346 00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:44,110 Speaker 1: some other life. And I have felt that in my 347 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,570 Speaker 1: own body many times. And I hear that from people 348 00:24:47,670 --> 00:24:53,830 Speaker 1: I love all the time. It's the if-then statements. It's like, oh, 349 00:24:53,890 --> 00:24:58,020 Speaker 1: if I could just get through this project, then yeah, 350 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: I'm for sure going to slow down and spend more 351 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,790 Speaker 1: time with the Lord and see my kids more often. 352 00:25:04,609 --> 00:25:09,250 Speaker 1: if I could just, you know, get to retirement, then 353 00:25:09,410 --> 00:25:12,750 Speaker 1: for sure, I'm going to reorient the architecture of my life. 354 00:25:13,330 --> 00:25:17,410 Speaker 1: If this, then that. And whatever comes after the word 355 00:25:17,530 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: then is not the life God has given you now. 356 00:25:21,980 --> 00:25:24,780 Speaker 1: And the only life, you know, there's that Dallas Willard idea. 357 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,540 Speaker 1: The only place God can meet us is in the present, 358 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:33,129 Speaker 1: you know, and, and thanks be to God. He is so, here. 359 00:25:33,250 --> 00:25:36,650 Speaker 1: He is so in the present if we would just 360 00:25:37,250 --> 00:25:40,070 Speaker 1: live with awareness of him. So yeah, I love that thought. 361 00:25:40,130 --> 00:25:44,230 Speaker 1: There is no other life, just this one. Yeah. 362 00:25:45,070 --> 00:25:48,290 Speaker 2: That's at least hopeful. I don't have to wait for 363 00:25:48,369 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 2: some day. Today is the day of salvation. And in 364 00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 2: this sense, it is as well. So maybe you could 365 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 2: just say a word because I love how you took 366 00:26:00,619 --> 00:26:04,139 Speaker 2: sort of the Ignatian examine and sort of the phases 367 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 2: of that as a framework for what you've written. Can you, 368 00:26:07,859 --> 00:26:10,729 Speaker 2: for those who aren't familiar with the idea of the 369 00:26:10,790 --> 00:26:13,970 Speaker 2: examine or Ignatius's way of sort of framing that, can 370 00:26:13,990 --> 00:26:15,030 Speaker 2: you just say a little bit. 371 00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:21,820 Speaker 1: About that maybe? Yeah, I mean, Saint Ignatius, who was 372 00:26:21,859 --> 00:26:25,620 Speaker 1: born in Iñigo López, grew up in a noble family, 373 00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:32,690 Speaker 1: is severely struck by a cannonball in war. And then 374 00:26:32,710 --> 00:26:35,869 Speaker 1: he's laid up in bed. He grew up dreaming of 375 00:26:35,930 --> 00:26:39,430 Speaker 1: becoming a valiant knight, but his caregiver brings him books 376 00:26:39,490 --> 00:26:43,730 Speaker 1: about Christ and Christian saints. And he goes and lives 377 00:26:43,790 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: in a cave in Manresa, north of Barcelona, for like 378 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: 10 months. And I'm not recommending you go live in 379 00:26:49,530 --> 00:26:51,949 Speaker 1: a cave, but the point, maybe, maybe that's what the 380 00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:54,450 Speaker 1: Lord's calling you to do. I don't know. But either way, 381 00:26:54,490 --> 00:26:58,150 Speaker 1: the point is he spends months sort of in silence 382 00:26:58,190 --> 00:27:03,090 Speaker 1: and solitude and spiritual contemplation. And, and then he emerges 383 00:27:03,430 --> 00:27:06,739 Speaker 1: and he finds the society of Jesus, the Jesuits. And 384 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,500 Speaker 1: obviously there's this very rich tradition from Ignatian spirituality that 385 00:27:11,540 --> 00:27:15,580 Speaker 1: includes lots of different practices and the exercises and so 386 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,170 Speaker 1: on and so forth. But, One of the most challenging 387 00:27:19,330 --> 00:27:22,930 Speaker 1: and yet simplest sort of invitations is, and it's sort 388 00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:27,369 Speaker 1: of a simplification of his whole sort of big overarching offering, 389 00:27:27,470 --> 00:27:29,510 Speaker 1: but it is what we would call the prayer of 390 00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: examine or the daily examine or just the examine in short. 391 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,580 Speaker 1: And again, I'm generalizing here to make it accessible, but 392 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: it's basically a prayer you pray Mostly, usually at the 393 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: end of your day, reflecting back with God on the day. 394 00:27:47,940 --> 00:27:52,740 Speaker 1: And it moves in five generally fairly simple movements. You 395 00:27:52,780 --> 00:27:55,500 Speaker 1: invite God by His Spirit to make you aware of 396 00:27:55,540 --> 00:27:59,659 Speaker 1: His presence. You express gratitude to God for one particular 397 00:27:59,940 --> 00:28:04,859 Speaker 1: moment or experience. You reflect on the day, particularly on 398 00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:10,389 Speaker 1: anything that was painful or hard. You hold it. uh, 399 00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: with God and hold it before him, you confess, um, 400 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,659 Speaker 1: and then, um, seek sort of God's help, you know, and, 401 00:28:18,770 --> 00:28:20,810 Speaker 1: and really ultimately for me, it's become an act of 402 00:28:20,869 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: surrendering to God's will. And, um, I began praying the 403 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: exam and sort of sporadically at the end of every day, 404 00:28:29,180 --> 00:28:31,180 Speaker 1: a number of years ago, but it was kind of 405 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,810 Speaker 1: fits and starts. And on most days it was pretty 406 00:28:34,850 --> 00:28:37,369 Speaker 1: difficult early on because you're pretty tired at the end 407 00:28:37,410 --> 00:28:40,989 Speaker 1: of the day. So for me, it would end up 408 00:28:41,050 --> 00:28:44,910 Speaker 1: being kind of a rote exercise. But every now and 409 00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:48,010 Speaker 1: then I would have these moments that felt like really enlivening, 410 00:28:48,110 --> 00:28:50,690 Speaker 1: you know, like God would really meet me in the 411 00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:54,380 Speaker 1: quiet of reflecting on my day with him and And 412 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 1: then as our kids got a little bit older, Jenny 413 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,740 Speaker 1: and I started praying a very simple sort of family 414 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,850 Speaker 1: version of the examen with them. And so we still 415 00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:07,050 Speaker 1: do that to this day. Well, tonight I have an 416 00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:09,210 Speaker 1: elders meeting, so Jenny will do it without me. But 417 00:29:09,610 --> 00:29:12,850 Speaker 1: last night, and on most nights, seven nights a week typically, 418 00:29:13,390 --> 00:29:15,490 Speaker 1: we sit around the dining table before they go to bed. 419 00:29:15,550 --> 00:29:18,590 Speaker 1: We light a candle, and I remind them that just 420 00:29:18,670 --> 00:29:23,150 Speaker 1: like this light is illuminating the darkness... Christ is the 421 00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:25,390 Speaker 1: light of the world and God by his spirit is 422 00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: here as real as this candle. And then we pray 423 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,060 Speaker 1: through the movements of the examine. And honestly, Alan, most 424 00:29:32,140 --> 00:29:38,130 Speaker 1: nights it's pretty boring. It's pretty dull. It's pretty mundane. 425 00:29:38,310 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: It's really ordinary. And like most spiritual practices, what I've 426 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:49,650 Speaker 1: discovered is that its formative effects happen in slow, steady, 427 00:29:49,850 --> 00:29:54,430 Speaker 1: and unexpected ways. So for me, over several years of 428 00:29:54,490 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: doing this, what I realized was, I was beginning to 429 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,660 Speaker 1: see and experience all of life through the movements of 430 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:04,940 Speaker 1: the examine. The examine was becoming a window to my 431 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,100 Speaker 1: world and not just a prayer I was praying at 432 00:30:07,140 --> 00:30:09,810 Speaker 1: the end of the day. And that's where something unlocked 433 00:30:09,850 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: in me. It's like, oh, I don't have to just 434 00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:15,970 Speaker 1: seek deeper awareness of his presence at the end of 435 00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:19,350 Speaker 1: the day when I pray. I can just have moments 436 00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:22,550 Speaker 1: throughout the day of being aware of his presence. I 437 00:30:22,590 --> 00:30:25,570 Speaker 1: can have moments throughout the day in real time of 438 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:29,150 Speaker 1: thanking God, pausing to thank him for this person or 439 00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:32,660 Speaker 1: this experience. I can reflect in real time, like, man, 440 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:34,820 Speaker 1: this was hard. I just, before I got on the 441 00:30:34,860 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: call with you a couple hours ago, I had a 442 00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: very difficult conversation with a friend. And, um, in the 443 00:30:40,260 --> 00:30:42,500 Speaker 1: midst of it, I was able to reflect, you know, Jesus, 444 00:30:42,860 --> 00:30:45,700 Speaker 1: you know what it's like to be hurt or to 445 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,050 Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable or misunderstood. So be here with me now, 446 00:30:49,570 --> 00:30:51,890 Speaker 1: you know, be here with us now. And I know 447 00:30:51,930 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: what it's like to confess in, um, in real time. 448 00:30:56,220 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: It was just so freeing, you know, in this same 449 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: conversation that was difficult. I, I had unintentionally hurt this friend. 450 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,310 Speaker 1: So I confessed it to him and to the Lord. 451 00:31:06,330 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: I didn't have to wait till the end of the 452 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,390 Speaker 1: day and, and then seeking God's help. So it became 453 00:31:11,430 --> 00:31:14,050 Speaker 1: a framing for all of life and it's still a 454 00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:17,790 Speaker 1: work in progress, but it's been so helpful to me 455 00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:18,350 Speaker 1: in that way. 456 00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:22,130 Speaker 2: That's, that's wonderful. Thanks for giving us a little bit 457 00:31:22,170 --> 00:31:24,340 Speaker 2: of a vision of it. And again, you, you really 458 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,180 Speaker 2: do sort of walk through those five movements and you 459 00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:32,010 Speaker 2: create some contrasts between one, you know, one way. And then, 460 00:31:32,030 --> 00:31:35,550 Speaker 2: you know, the way of peace, the way of Jesus, this, this, 461 00:31:36,490 --> 00:31:39,830 Speaker 2: this possibility, one of those contrasts, you talk about sort 462 00:31:39,850 --> 00:31:42,660 Speaker 2: of a contrast between a striving for more, which is 463 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: very culturally familiar. And then the gift of gratitude. I 464 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,390 Speaker 2: wonder if you could unpack a little bit that, that, Tension, 465 00:31:51,410 --> 00:31:54,150 Speaker 2: that contrast between striving and gratitude. 466 00:31:57,130 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, there's been, when I think about striving, 467 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,380 Speaker 1: it's interesting. I think most people can relate to this 468 00:32:04,420 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: sort of incessant need to keep life going, moving up 469 00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: and to the right, you know, these sort of proverbial 470 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:15,590 Speaker 1: ladders that are before us, whether it's your career or 471 00:32:15,610 --> 00:32:19,830 Speaker 1: sort of curating the perfect Instagrammable family or whatever it 472 00:32:19,870 --> 00:32:24,780 Speaker 1: might be. I think most people feel that incessant pressure. 473 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,780 Speaker 1: I was interested in discovering, because I live with that 474 00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:32,380 Speaker 1: same pressure myself, I was interested in discovering why. Where 475 00:32:32,420 --> 00:32:35,850 Speaker 1: does this come from? When you do just a little 476 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:40,370 Speaker 1: bit of research, you realize that there's been a lot 477 00:32:40,390 --> 00:32:47,130 Speaker 1: of research done about mimetic desire. In fact, there's some 478 00:32:47,310 --> 00:32:51,300 Speaker 1: research that says that human beings are actually born imitators. 479 00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:55,790 Speaker 1: So there have been newborn infants as young as like, 480 00:32:55,850 --> 00:32:58,790 Speaker 1: I want to say an hour or two old, who 481 00:32:58,830 --> 00:33:03,270 Speaker 1: have shown sort of mimetic tendencies where they'll imitate the 482 00:33:03,310 --> 00:33:07,830 Speaker 1: facial expressions of their caregiver. So a lot of folks 483 00:33:07,910 --> 00:33:11,890 Speaker 1: believe that we're just kind of innately mimetic. We see 484 00:33:12,050 --> 00:33:15,890 Speaker 1: something or someone else, and there's something in our biology 485 00:33:15,990 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: that longs for that or wants to become like that 486 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: or to mimic that essentially and when you just kind 487 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: of trace that further along you know particularly in our 488 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: age of hyper individualism mixed with social media everybody's trying 489 00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:40,100 Speaker 1: to like be the individual that stands out but then 490 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: we just have a world of individuals who are all 491 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: trying to stand out it's just this like kaleidoscope of 492 00:33:46,570 --> 00:33:49,260 Speaker 1: sort of homogeneity, you know, and sameness, and everyone has 493 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: to look a particular way and achieve a particular level of, 494 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,100 Speaker 1: you know, whatever, fame, social media cred, whatever it might be. 495 00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:01,110 Speaker 1: And it's really incessant. And I know what it's like 496 00:34:01,150 --> 00:34:04,910 Speaker 1: to live in that world. I have found myself prone 497 00:34:05,030 --> 00:34:09,810 Speaker 1: to wander toward those sort of mimetic desires. And at 498 00:34:09,850 --> 00:34:13,459 Speaker 1: least in me, what it's done is it breeds unnecessary 499 00:34:13,620 --> 00:34:18,380 Speaker 1: and really dangerous sort of bitterness and contempt in the 500 00:34:18,460 --> 00:34:22,260 Speaker 1: soul toward others, sometimes even toward people I don't know, 501 00:34:22,540 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, and, and sometimes even worse, like toward people 502 00:34:25,940 --> 00:34:29,569 Speaker 1: I love, you know, and, um, one of the, one 503 00:34:29,590 --> 00:34:32,390 Speaker 1: of the, one of the deepest experiences of this was 504 00:34:32,430 --> 00:34:35,870 Speaker 1: when Jenny and I, we've got two beautiful children now, 505 00:34:35,930 --> 00:34:38,910 Speaker 1: but we wrestled with infertility for about six years and 506 00:34:40,060 --> 00:34:43,420 Speaker 1: During that season, we had all these other near and 507 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 1: dear friends who had gotten married right around when we 508 00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:49,930 Speaker 1: got married. They were posting on Facebook at the time 509 00:34:50,590 --> 00:34:57,990 Speaker 1: their pregnancy announcements. I remember Jenny and I feeling collectively 510 00:34:58,750 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: so much contempt for these people we love who had 511 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,700 Speaker 1: done nothing wrong, who were celebrating in this incredible blessing 512 00:35:06,739 --> 00:35:10,359 Speaker 1: of God's gift to them. And yet we were just 513 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: bitter and we were mad and we were like, we 514 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,340 Speaker 1: don't want to see them, you know? And I reflect 515 00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 1: back on that time and I just think, man, what 516 00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:25,700 Speaker 1: is that? And I realized there is a different way 517 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:32,190 Speaker 1: and it is to practice gratitude. And gratitude, especially in 518 00:35:32,250 --> 00:35:35,770 Speaker 1: moments that are hard in the dark valleys, it will 519 00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:39,969 Speaker 1: feel so unnatural sometimes. It will feel so forced. But 520 00:35:40,030 --> 00:35:43,940 Speaker 1: that's why spiritual practices, the concept of spiritual practices have 521 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: been so helpful for me. It's like, man, sometimes we 522 00:35:47,420 --> 00:35:51,860 Speaker 1: just need to practice our way to feeling holistically the 523 00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:54,620 Speaker 1: thing we want to feel. You cannot just wait to 524 00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: be grateful to express gratitude. So gratitude as a practice 525 00:35:59,590 --> 00:36:03,410 Speaker 1: is a powerful thing because it can disentangle us from 526 00:36:03,469 --> 00:36:08,819 Speaker 1: our mimetic desires, our contempt, our bitterness. And really, ultimately, 527 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,700 Speaker 1: what that leads to is a life of freedom. And 528 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,819 Speaker 1: that's what we all want. That's what we all want. So, yeah, 529 00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: gratitude is a gift that I try to practice regularly 530 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:20,620 Speaker 1: if I can. 531 00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:25,700 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have desperately needed that practice. I'm a bit 532 00:36:25,739 --> 00:36:31,129 Speaker 2: of a pessimist, both by nurture and nature, I think. 533 00:36:32,090 --> 00:36:35,130 Speaker 2: And so I can easily notice what isn't going the 534 00:36:35,170 --> 00:36:38,010 Speaker 2: way I wish it would. And I can easily rehearse 535 00:36:38,090 --> 00:36:42,350 Speaker 2: that in my attitudes and in my ways of responding. 536 00:36:42,410 --> 00:36:47,350 Speaker 2: But if I look, I can see grace. I can 537 00:36:47,390 --> 00:36:50,150 Speaker 2: see grace in any moment, even though I can also 538 00:36:50,230 --> 00:36:53,820 Speaker 2: see that thing that isn't happening yet. To your point 539 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,009 Speaker 2: of taking a little while to build a family, we 540 00:36:57,050 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 2: were always the oldest couple ever. of our age cohort 541 00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:04,700 Speaker 2: in terms of finally having kids. We're sort of the 542 00:37:04,739 --> 00:37:07,580 Speaker 2: last now to have grandkids. We're still kind of waiting. 543 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,950 Speaker 2: And we felt some similar dynamics there. Plus, I was 544 00:37:12,989 --> 00:37:17,009 Speaker 2: a college pastor, and we were often caring for some 545 00:37:17,650 --> 00:37:20,830 Speaker 2: who were waiting for a child and hadn't expected that 546 00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:24,580 Speaker 2: to be a part of their story. So there's always 547 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,089 Speaker 2: something you can rehearse that that would sour your perspective, 548 00:37:29,130 --> 00:37:33,270 Speaker 2: but there's also always something you can rehearse that's really good, 549 00:37:33,410 --> 00:37:39,890 Speaker 2: not just empty optimism, but real gratitude. I think as 550 00:37:39,950 --> 00:37:41,710 Speaker 2: I was also, one other thing I'd love for you 551 00:37:41,730 --> 00:37:44,190 Speaker 2: to just touch is you talked about the contrast between 552 00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: the wreckage of reactivity and the gift of reflection. I 553 00:37:47,620 --> 00:37:51,580 Speaker 2: think those two words, again, reactivity is such, oh my goodness, 554 00:37:52,420 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 2: you don't have to live long to know that we're 555 00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:59,430 Speaker 2: in a reactive time. And so how might this practice 556 00:37:59,489 --> 00:38:02,750 Speaker 2: of reflection help us get a little bit of distance 557 00:38:02,810 --> 00:38:05,910 Speaker 2: from these, you know, knee jerk reactions that are so 558 00:38:06,430 --> 00:38:07,510 Speaker 2: familiar these days? 559 00:38:09,370 --> 00:38:14,950 Speaker 1: Yeah. Reactivity is a real struggle for me still to 560 00:38:14,989 --> 00:38:17,430 Speaker 1: this day. So I just want to admit that this 561 00:38:17,489 --> 00:38:20,390 Speaker 1: is not like, Hey, I wrote two little chapters and 562 00:38:20,430 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: now I just, I never, I'm never reactive. You know, 563 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,180 Speaker 1: it's just, it's real. I mean, I, I was reactive 564 00:38:26,219 --> 00:38:31,219 Speaker 1: to something earlier today, actually, as we're recording this. It 565 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:33,660 Speaker 1: is natural. So maybe one thing I could say is 566 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,570 Speaker 1: I don't think you need to feel guilty or ashamed 567 00:38:40,190 --> 00:38:44,130 Speaker 1: for a number of reasons that have to do with 568 00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: your biology and your neurochemistry, all of that. It's pretty natural. 569 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,660 Speaker 1: Reactivity is pretty natural. It actually, you know, there's some 570 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: sort of primal stuff in you just as a biological 571 00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:06,950 Speaker 1: human that wants to react, physiologically wants to react anytime 572 00:39:07,010 --> 00:39:11,790 Speaker 1: there is any sort of threat, that perceived threat around you. 573 00:39:11,950 --> 00:39:14,660 Speaker 1: And that might be physical, but it can also be 574 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: just verbal and relational. And so, you know, it's normal, 575 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:24,060 Speaker 1: I think, but... where reflection has become helpful for me, 576 00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:31,280 Speaker 1: just getting really pragmatic. um, reflection, knowing that I can 577 00:39:31,420 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 1: practice reflection regularly, uh, on a day to day or 578 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:39,259 Speaker 1: a moment by moment basis, but also knowing that, um, 579 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,029 Speaker 1: at the end of this day, I will pause to 580 00:39:42,090 --> 00:39:46,910 Speaker 1: reflect on all of the pain and hold it with God. Um, and, 581 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,859 Speaker 1: it gives me a chance. It's not perfect, but for me, 582 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:54,379 Speaker 1: where it's been helpful is like, it frees me from 583 00:39:54,420 --> 00:40:01,419 Speaker 1: the tyranny of always needing to resolve the situation right 584 00:40:01,460 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: then and there. It's slowed me down quite a bit. 585 00:40:04,739 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: And what I realized, this might be more of a 586 00:40:06,260 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: personality thing, maybe not ubiquitous, but for me, much of 587 00:40:10,180 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: my reactivity, I think, is born of my personality, which 588 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:21,020 Speaker 1: does not like conflict. Anytime there is conflict in my body, 589 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: what I feel is I just need to end the 590 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:30,989 Speaker 1: conflict by whatever means necessary. Sometimes it's a fight or 591 00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:35,469 Speaker 1: flight thing or freeze sort of thing. I'll fight and 592 00:40:35,530 --> 00:40:38,649 Speaker 1: win and end it, or I'll just flight. I'll just leave. 593 00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:41,350 Speaker 1: I'm just going to exit the situation and ignore that 594 00:40:41,390 --> 00:40:45,690 Speaker 1: it ever happened. And neither are healthy, obviously, most of 595 00:40:45,730 --> 00:40:49,700 Speaker 1: the time. And so knowing that I have rhythms of 596 00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: reflection have slowed me down quite a bit. And I 597 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: think slowing down is a key part of moving away 598 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,860 Speaker 1: from reactivity and becoming a person that leans much more 599 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,020 Speaker 1: on reflection. And then to invite God into that sort 600 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:09,879 Speaker 1: of practice of reflection has been so helpful because God 601 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,920 Speaker 1: can hold all the pain, you know, and I'm not alone. 602 00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:17,899 Speaker 1: I don't carry it alone. God knows what it's like 603 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: to hurt and to feel betrayed and to feel alone. 604 00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:24,660 Speaker 1: And so I don't have to, you know, I'm not 605 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: alone because he knows what it feels like to be alone. 606 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,070 Speaker 1: So yeah, reflection, I can't say enough just what a 607 00:41:31,150 --> 00:41:36,569 Speaker 1: gift it's been. Not because it's a sort of, you know, 608 00:41:36,670 --> 00:41:40,259 Speaker 1: flight mechanism. Oh, I'm just, I'm going to, exit the 609 00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:44,089 Speaker 1: situation and go reflect a while, but because I can 610 00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:47,489 Speaker 1: bring the pain of the situation into the practice of 611 00:41:47,550 --> 00:41:50,969 Speaker 1: reflection in God's loving presence, knowing that I can hold 612 00:41:51,010 --> 00:41:51,549 Speaker 1: it before him. 613 00:41:52,610 --> 00:41:56,779 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, just as I was listening to you, I 614 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,180 Speaker 2: think one of the ways I found reflection so helpful 615 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 2: is a lot of times I assume I know what's 616 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 2: happening in the moment. And then at the end of 617 00:42:04,700 --> 00:42:08,390 Speaker 2: the day, I'll look back and realize, oh, I really 618 00:42:08,489 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 2: sort of missed what was happening there. But in reflection, 619 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,140 Speaker 2: I sort of see through different eyes. Part of the 620 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 2: goodness of that is it then trains me the next 621 00:42:18,580 --> 00:42:21,899 Speaker 2: time a moment like that arises. I just might see 622 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 2: it differently in that moment. I might learn how to 623 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:30,300 Speaker 2: do that. Like, yeah, reflection could also be training me 624 00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:31,969 Speaker 2: for the journey ahead. 625 00:42:33,850 --> 00:42:38,110 Speaker 1: Yeah, I absolutely think the practice of reflection is a 626 00:42:38,250 --> 00:42:42,660 Speaker 1: way to train or to be formed. In the book, 627 00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:48,100 Speaker 1: I talk about how there's this concept called spatial disorientation 628 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:53,180 Speaker 1: in aviation, where basically the pilot loses sense for a 629 00:42:53,219 --> 00:42:57,779 Speaker 1: variety of reasons, loses sense of where they are in 630 00:42:58,989 --> 00:43:03,149 Speaker 1: conjunction with the ground or a mountain next to them 631 00:43:03,230 --> 00:43:07,469 Speaker 1: or whatever it might be, spatial disorientation. And 90% of 632 00:43:07,489 --> 00:43:12,470 Speaker 1: aviation accidents that involve spatial disorientation prove to be fatal. 633 00:43:14,410 --> 00:43:18,089 Speaker 1: Anytime you hear about somebody passing away because of an 634 00:43:18,410 --> 00:43:21,650 Speaker 1: airline accident or a helicopter accident, it is almost always 635 00:43:21,690 --> 00:43:26,790 Speaker 1: because of spatial disorientation. It's very similar to the iceberg metaphor. 636 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,750 Speaker 1: Peter Scazzera uses that in Emotionally Healthy Stuff where Only 10% 637 00:43:32,750 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: of an iceberg is visible above. 90% of it is below. 638 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: I've discovered the practice of reflection is a way of 639 00:43:41,260 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: reorienting myself almost spatially. Where am I in my life 640 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,890 Speaker 1: and in the world? Where am I really truly in 641 00:43:48,989 --> 00:43:53,009 Speaker 1: this relationship? Am I feeling all of this because I'm 642 00:43:53,050 --> 00:43:55,989 Speaker 1: really enmeshed? Do I need to detach a little bit 643 00:43:56,130 --> 00:43:58,190 Speaker 1: or am I leaning away when I really need to 644 00:43:58,250 --> 00:44:01,739 Speaker 1: lean in? And it is a way of excavating to 645 00:44:01,780 --> 00:44:04,899 Speaker 1: the depths, the interior as well. Reflection is a way 646 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: to invite God, basically to say, God, show me the 90% 647 00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: that I'm not seeing. There's something beneath the thing that 648 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,660 Speaker 1: is responding in this sort of reactive state and show 649 00:44:17,700 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 1: that to me. And that's where the gift of reflection 650 00:44:22,430 --> 00:44:26,270 Speaker 1: has been really pragmatically helpful for me. Yeah, that's so good. 651 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,910 Speaker 2: Well, the last little contrast you offer is your phrases 652 00:44:32,010 --> 00:44:35,549 Speaker 2: are the futility of self-will, the gift of God's will. 653 00:44:36,090 --> 00:44:38,589 Speaker 2: And often I think in our heads, we think those 654 00:44:38,650 --> 00:44:43,549 Speaker 2: are reversed. It's like, my will is wonderful. You know, 655 00:44:43,850 --> 00:44:45,890 Speaker 2: my will, if only I could get what I want 656 00:44:46,250 --> 00:44:48,930 Speaker 2: and what I intend, then I'd have the good life. 657 00:44:49,790 --> 00:44:52,290 Speaker 2: But I might have to settle for God's will. And 658 00:44:52,510 --> 00:44:56,320 Speaker 2: that probably involves going to another country and... doing something 659 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,910 Speaker 2: I don't really want to do. Like maybe unpack how 660 00:45:01,270 --> 00:45:04,910 Speaker 2: maybe it's actually is the reverse that what God wills 661 00:45:04,969 --> 00:45:08,989 Speaker 2: for us is beautifully good. And maybe some of the 662 00:45:09,010 --> 00:45:11,649 Speaker 2: things we think we want aren't actually things we want 663 00:45:11,710 --> 00:45:12,109 Speaker 2: in the end. 664 00:45:15,390 --> 00:45:18,210 Speaker 1: I mean, anytime you talk about God's will and the 665 00:45:18,250 --> 00:45:21,250 Speaker 1: sort of the pain of surrender, you know, is it, 666 00:45:22,860 --> 00:45:25,790 Speaker 1: for me at least, I go to Gethsemane, you know, 667 00:45:26,730 --> 00:45:31,050 Speaker 1: and Jesus in that garden, which is called the olive press, 668 00:45:31,330 --> 00:45:35,430 Speaker 1: you know, and the irony of it is that his 669 00:45:35,530 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: life is about to be pressed down and crushed so 670 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: that his blood, you know, his life literally shed for 671 00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,509 Speaker 1: the life of the world. And of course, Jesus is 672 00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: honest with God about his own self-will, his desire. And 673 00:45:52,620 --> 00:45:55,880 Speaker 1: I think that part is so important. Otherwise, we begin 674 00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:00,700 Speaker 1: to see God as a sort of puppet master who 675 00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: just doesn't really care. There is no reflection with God 676 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:10,110 Speaker 1: about our pain. If it's just, well, this is your will, 677 00:46:10,190 --> 00:46:15,550 Speaker 1: and I guess I've got to obey. Jesus very beautifully says, 678 00:46:15,810 --> 00:46:19,550 Speaker 1: if it is possible, take this cup from me. It's 679 00:46:20,250 --> 00:46:21,930 Speaker 1: just a way of saying, I don't want to do this. 680 00:46:21,989 --> 00:46:24,310 Speaker 1: In fact, He says to his disciples, hey, would you 681 00:46:24,330 --> 00:46:28,430 Speaker 1: guys pray with me? I am so overwhelmed right now. 682 00:46:29,030 --> 00:46:31,750 Speaker 1: My soul is crushed. And he says, like, to the 683 00:46:31,790 --> 00:46:35,750 Speaker 1: point of death. The irony of that is he's essentially saying, 684 00:46:36,170 --> 00:46:41,799 Speaker 1: I am so wracked with anxiety and tension that I 685 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,060 Speaker 1: feel like I want to die. And the irony is 686 00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,759 Speaker 1: he feels that way because he knows he's going to 687 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,339 Speaker 1: go die. He's going to go die a death sentence. 688 00:46:50,690 --> 00:46:56,609 Speaker 1: He does not deserve to die. And he's so honest 689 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: with God about that. And then, of course, there is 690 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:05,380 Speaker 1: that powerful sort of surrender, but God, not as I will, 691 00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:11,180 Speaker 1: but as you will. And as I've reflected on that 692 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,720 Speaker 1: story over the years, I realized one of the real, 693 00:47:15,739 --> 00:47:20,140 Speaker 1: really powerful sort of realities of that scene in Gethsemane 694 00:47:21,180 --> 00:47:27,770 Speaker 1: is that even though Jesus understands that he does not 695 00:47:27,850 --> 00:47:30,569 Speaker 1: control the narrative here, though he could have chosen to, 696 00:47:30,590 --> 00:47:34,730 Speaker 1: he is choosing to not do what he wants, which 697 00:47:34,850 --> 00:47:39,140 Speaker 1: is to not drink this cup. He's choosing to surrender. 698 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,660 Speaker 1: What I have discovered to be so stunning about that 699 00:47:42,739 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 1: scene is Jesus' seeming deep intimacy with God the Father. 700 00:47:51,090 --> 00:47:54,330 Speaker 1: So though he does not have control, he begins that 701 00:47:54,410 --> 00:47:59,560 Speaker 1: prayer by calling God Father. And it reminds us of 702 00:47:59,580 --> 00:48:04,129 Speaker 1: the scene when Jesus is baptized. It sort of bookends 703 00:48:04,190 --> 00:48:08,230 Speaker 1: his ministry life. He begins his ministry life by being baptized, 704 00:48:08,570 --> 00:48:11,930 Speaker 1: and he ends it before dying on the cross by 705 00:48:12,450 --> 00:48:15,650 Speaker 1: praying this prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane. And in 706 00:48:15,730 --> 00:48:20,089 Speaker 1: both scenes, there is a father-son relationship. At the baptism, 707 00:48:20,130 --> 00:48:23,649 Speaker 1: the heavens open, a dove descends, and then they hear 708 00:48:23,690 --> 00:48:26,860 Speaker 1: the voice of God the Father. This is my son 709 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:31,660 Speaker 1: whom I love. With him, I am well pleased. And 710 00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:35,080 Speaker 1: then there he is about to die, and he prays 711 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,980 Speaker 1: to that same God, and he calls him the same thing. 712 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,580 Speaker 1: Now the son says to the father, Father, I don't 713 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,750 Speaker 1: want to do this, but not my will, your will. 714 00:48:47,989 --> 00:48:51,710 Speaker 1: There's such intimacy there, even in the pain. And I 715 00:48:52,710 --> 00:48:56,930 Speaker 1: think that's what I've learned most, that ultimately God's will 716 00:48:58,070 --> 00:49:02,080 Speaker 1: is not to give me what I want. It's not 717 00:49:02,180 --> 00:49:06,460 Speaker 1: to make my life more comfortable. It's not to make 718 00:49:06,540 --> 00:49:13,570 Speaker 1: me rich or healthy. Ultimately, his greatest desire is union. 719 00:49:14,510 --> 00:49:16,690 Speaker 1: He wants to be with me. It is the same 720 00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: question he asks on page 373. of Genesis that we've 721 00:49:20,940 --> 00:49:24,280 Speaker 1: already talked about. Where are you? That's what he wants. 722 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,390 Speaker 1: And God gets what he wants in the end. He 723 00:49:28,450 --> 00:49:34,570 Speaker 1: gets union. And I think surrendering our will to God's 724 00:49:34,630 --> 00:49:40,209 Speaker 1: will in large part is about surrendering our desire. And 725 00:49:40,450 --> 00:49:45,750 Speaker 1: allowing God by His Spirit to reorient our desire. Because 726 00:49:45,910 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 1: if the thing I desire most is union with God, 727 00:49:51,100 --> 00:49:55,020 Speaker 1: then my greatest desire has already been answered. God is 728 00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:59,140 Speaker 1: present in our midst. And I think that's the trick. 729 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,069 Speaker 1: And it's not a trick. It's an invitation. I think 730 00:50:03,110 --> 00:50:06,410 Speaker 1: that's the invitation, is to learn to desire what God 731 00:50:06,450 --> 00:50:10,450 Speaker 1: desires most, which is union, deep abiding relationships. And if 732 00:50:10,469 --> 00:50:13,989 Speaker 1: we can desire that most, then the joy of it 733 00:50:14,110 --> 00:50:16,390 Speaker 1: all is that we have what we desire most. 734 00:50:17,350 --> 00:50:21,730 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And when you live this life 735 00:50:21,969 --> 00:50:25,290 Speaker 2: for a while and you experience some of those surrenders 736 00:50:26,010 --> 00:50:28,410 Speaker 2: that in the moment feel like not getting what you want, 737 00:50:29,050 --> 00:50:32,660 Speaker 2: giving up the thing you feel you most want, what 738 00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,779 Speaker 2: you actually discover over time is, oh, wait a minute. 739 00:50:37,260 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 2: I am getting what I want. I didn't know that's 740 00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:46,160 Speaker 2: what I wanted. But in fact, this has depth. This 741 00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:51,390 Speaker 2: seems to have staying power. I've got more shalom, you know, 742 00:50:51,570 --> 00:50:54,649 Speaker 2: than if I'd just gotten my way all along the way. 743 00:50:56,230 --> 00:50:58,529 Speaker 2: So as we kind of come to the close of 744 00:50:58,550 --> 00:51:01,490 Speaker 2: the conversation, Jay, I'd love for you to just offer 745 00:51:01,530 --> 00:51:05,180 Speaker 2: a word of sort of pastoral encouragement in the spirit 746 00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,940 Speaker 2: of your book's title, the pace of peace, just someone's listening. 747 00:51:09,980 --> 00:51:13,839 Speaker 2: They've been intrigued. They've been drawn. What next step might 748 00:51:13,900 --> 00:51:15,219 Speaker 2: you invite them to? 749 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:21,830 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, Alan, thank you so much for 750 00:51:22,610 --> 00:51:25,310 Speaker 1: having me on again. I really mean it. It's just 751 00:51:25,370 --> 00:51:28,569 Speaker 1: always such a joy. Every, every chance I get to 752 00:51:28,610 --> 00:51:32,210 Speaker 1: interact with you. And for me, you know, I would 753 00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:37,230 Speaker 1: just encourage folks listening. If, they feel like they're living 754 00:51:37,410 --> 00:51:45,320 Speaker 1: under that tyrannical burden of a life that feels unmanageable 755 00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: or uninspiring or a calendar that feels untenable or a 756 00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:59,290 Speaker 1: task list that feels unsustainable. This is going to sound morbid, 757 00:51:59,450 --> 00:52:01,690 Speaker 1: but I promise it'll lead to hope. I just want 758 00:52:01,710 --> 00:52:07,240 Speaker 1: to remind you At some point, you will die. And 759 00:52:07,340 --> 00:52:11,479 Speaker 1: when you die, you will leave. No matter how hard 760 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,720 Speaker 1: you work, even if you slept two hours a night 761 00:52:14,980 --> 00:52:17,319 Speaker 1: and worked the rest of the time, no matter what, 762 00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:24,130 Speaker 1: when you die, you will leave so much undone. And 763 00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:28,470 Speaker 1: yet the world will go on. And also in Christ, 764 00:52:28,570 --> 00:52:32,070 Speaker 1: your death will not be the end. You will rise again. 765 00:52:33,250 --> 00:52:37,460 Speaker 1: to God's brand new heaven and brand new earth, where 766 00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:41,380 Speaker 1: there will be no more striving, no more tears, no 767 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:46,140 Speaker 1: more pain, no more death. And that is your reality, 768 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:53,950 Speaker 1: whether you work hard or not, whether you succeed or fail, 769 00:52:54,410 --> 00:52:58,950 Speaker 1: regardless of how much you achieve and accomplish or don't, 770 00:53:00,230 --> 00:53:04,069 Speaker 1: the end of your story has already been written. And 771 00:53:04,850 --> 00:53:08,190 Speaker 1: what that means is, in the words of Dallas Willard, 772 00:53:09,210 --> 00:53:12,750 Speaker 1: actually the thing that God most gets out of your 773 00:53:12,830 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: life is the person you become. And so may you 774 00:53:17,780 --> 00:53:21,980 Speaker 1: today give your attention to the God who gives his 775 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:27,390 Speaker 1: attention to you and receive his love and in doing 776 00:53:27,450 --> 00:53:30,870 Speaker 1: so become the person that God has always dreamt of 777 00:53:30,910 --> 00:53:34,350 Speaker 1: you being. Um, and if you would do that, and 778 00:53:34,370 --> 00:53:38,529 Speaker 1: if we would all do that, then I think, um, 779 00:53:39,530 --> 00:53:41,950 Speaker 1: our lives and our world and our cities and our 780 00:53:41,969 --> 00:53:45,690 Speaker 1: neighborhoods might begin to look a bit more like heaven 781 00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:49,129 Speaker 1: on earth, which is what I think we all want. Yeah. 782 00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:54,190 Speaker 2: Well, that is a beautiful vision and a very gracious invitation. 783 00:53:54,310 --> 00:53:57,330 Speaker 2: I hope our listeners will lean into that again today. 784 00:53:57,370 --> 00:54:00,359 Speaker 2: My guest has been Jay Kim. And we've been talking 785 00:54:00,410 --> 00:54:04,040 Speaker 2: about his book, The Pace of Peace. As always, as 786 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:06,719 Speaker 2: you said a moment ago, it's always a pleasure to 787 00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:12,660 Speaker 2: have conversations with you, Jay. Thank you for listening to 788 00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:18,210 Speaker 2: the Unhurried Living podcast. To learn more about us, visit unhurriedliving.com. 789 00:54:18,910 --> 00:54:22,029 Speaker 2: In the show notes, you'll find helpful links and information 790 00:54:22,210 --> 00:54:25,790 Speaker 2: about our partner, Life Audio, and all of their other 791 00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:27,469 Speaker 2: faith-centered podcasts.