1 00:00:08,237 --> 00:00:09,657 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:11,257 --> 00:00:13,917 Speaker 2: Whether you're new to prayer or have been praying for years, 3 00:00:14,177 --> 00:00:17,657 Speaker 2: the Jesus Listens by Sarah Young devotional empowers you to 4 00:00:17,697 --> 00:00:21,107 Speaker 2: draw near to God daily. Now, you can find this 5 00:00:21,187 --> 00:00:25,366 Speaker 2: beloved book in a deluxe pink leather-soft edition with elegant 6 00:00:25,467 --> 00:00:29,566 Speaker 2: foil accents, making it both a beautiful keepsake and a 7 00:00:29,587 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 2: meaningful gift. Inside, you'll find 365 days of Bible-based prayers. 8 00:00:35,817 --> 00:00:40,177 Speaker 2: scripture references, and a ribbon marker, perfect for quiet moments 9 00:00:40,217 --> 00:00:43,117 Speaker 2: at home or prayer on the go. Look for it 10 00:00:43,297 --> 00:00:44,297 Speaker 2: wherever you buy books. 11 00:00:47,656 --> 00:00:50,277 Speaker 1: We are made in the image of the author of everything. 12 00:00:50,717 --> 00:00:53,377 Speaker 1: And if we are, each of us have a tiny 13 00:00:53,437 --> 00:00:57,557 Speaker 1: strand of DNA of that maker, of that creator, of 14 00:00:57,597 --> 00:01:02,657 Speaker 1: that God. And our whole goal in life should be 15 00:01:02,717 --> 00:01:04,537 Speaker 1: to identify that strand of DNA and. 16 00:01:06,307 --> 00:01:09,487 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Jesus Calling Podcast. This week, we'll hear 17 00:01:09,557 --> 00:01:13,177 Speaker 2: from writer and producer Brian Bird, whose decades-long career in 18 00:01:13,217 --> 00:01:16,597 Speaker 2: film and television includes When Calls the Heart and Touched 19 00:01:16,657 --> 00:01:19,577 Speaker 2: by an Angel. Brian shares how he discovered his gift 20 00:01:19,597 --> 00:01:22,637 Speaker 2: for writing through others who championed for him and how 21 00:01:22,677 --> 00:01:25,977 Speaker 2: he uses his ability for storytelling to bring positive change 22 00:01:26,037 --> 00:01:29,617 Speaker 2: to the world. Next, we'll hear from Alistair McGrath, a 23 00:01:29,677 --> 00:01:34,097 Speaker 2: former atheist who became an Oxford-trained scientist and theologian. who 24 00:01:34,157 --> 00:01:37,347 Speaker 2: tries to bridge the divide between faith and science and 25 00:01:37,387 --> 00:01:40,107 Speaker 2: desires to show the world that belief in God is 26 00:01:40,187 --> 00:01:43,367 Speaker 2: more than just a set of ideas. It's about a relationship. 27 00:01:44,207 --> 00:01:45,867 Speaker 2: Let's begin with Brian's story. 28 00:01:47,607 --> 00:01:52,397 Speaker 1: My name is Brian Bird, and I'm a writer, producer, 29 00:01:52,517 --> 00:01:56,417 Speaker 1: working in film and television going all the way back 30 00:01:56,537 --> 00:02:01,817 Speaker 1: to the 1980s. The biggest problem Claim to Fame for 31 00:02:01,877 --> 00:02:04,677 Speaker 1: me is a show that I gave birth to with 32 00:02:04,737 --> 00:02:09,157 Speaker 1: Michael Landon Jr. called When Calls the Heart, which is 33 00:02:09,276 --> 00:02:15,137 Speaker 1: now filming season 14. I first encountered Jesus Calling as 34 00:02:15,187 --> 00:02:19,306 Speaker 1: a devotional because I wrote a few devotionals myself based 35 00:02:19,487 --> 00:02:22,947 Speaker 1: on the show When Calls the Heart called When God 36 00:02:23,007 --> 00:02:25,627 Speaker 1: Calls the Heart. So I did three of those devotionals. 37 00:02:25,807 --> 00:02:29,287 Speaker 1: And so I went to see my own book in 38 00:02:29,327 --> 00:02:32,407 Speaker 1: a bookstore. And that's when I was first exposed to 39 00:02:32,467 --> 00:02:35,287 Speaker 1: Jesus Calling as a devotional. And so I picked up 40 00:02:35,327 --> 00:02:39,757 Speaker 1: my own copy and love so much what Sarah Young 41 00:02:40,197 --> 00:02:45,917 Speaker 1: has done with that whole series of Jesus devotionals. I 42 00:02:45,957 --> 00:02:48,857 Speaker 1: became a Christian at a very young age. I was 43 00:02:49,117 --> 00:02:53,217 Speaker 1: raised in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor 44 00:02:53,277 --> 00:02:56,917 Speaker 1: for a while and my grandfather was a pastor for 45 00:02:56,957 --> 00:03:00,776 Speaker 1: as long as I could remember, and then grew up 46 00:03:00,937 --> 00:03:05,887 Speaker 1: with media and ministry sort of on dual tracks in 47 00:03:05,907 --> 00:03:09,087 Speaker 1: my life because my dad was on the radio most 48 00:03:09,127 --> 00:03:13,647 Speaker 1: of my growing up years. So we were big consumers 49 00:03:13,727 --> 00:03:19,977 Speaker 1: in my family of story, of reading books, watching television. 50 00:03:20,477 --> 00:03:25,157 Speaker 1: My dad loved taking us kids to the movies and just... 51 00:03:25,567 --> 00:03:29,627 Speaker 1: taking those journeys, going on those adventures creatively and through 52 00:03:29,647 --> 00:03:33,387 Speaker 1: our imagination. And when I got to high school, I 53 00:03:33,447 --> 00:03:40,237 Speaker 1: was a relatively average student, not remarkable in much of 54 00:03:40,397 --> 00:03:43,997 Speaker 1: any way. But when I was a freshman in high school, 55 00:03:44,077 --> 00:03:48,437 Speaker 1: I had an English teacher who held me back after class. 56 00:03:49,567 --> 00:03:53,187 Speaker 1: And I thought I was in trouble. The bell rang 57 00:03:53,247 --> 00:03:55,547 Speaker 1: and She asked me to stay behind and all my 58 00:03:55,607 --> 00:03:57,967 Speaker 1: friends were looking at me like, what did you do? 59 00:03:58,047 --> 00:04:00,697 Speaker 1: And I went up to her desk sort of timidly 60 00:04:00,777 --> 00:04:04,197 Speaker 1: and she had this essay in her hands with a 61 00:04:04,237 --> 00:04:07,257 Speaker 1: big A plus on it with a few little red 62 00:04:07,317 --> 00:04:09,877 Speaker 1: marks on it, but an essay that I had written. 63 00:04:10,777 --> 00:04:14,217 Speaker 1: And she looked me right in the eye and she said, Brian, 64 00:04:14,937 --> 00:04:17,017 Speaker 1: you could do this for a living if you want to. 65 00:04:17,937 --> 00:04:19,697 Speaker 1: And I turned around and looked to see if there 66 00:04:19,717 --> 00:04:23,297 Speaker 1: was another Brian behind me because I had no idea 67 00:04:23,327 --> 00:04:27,826 Speaker 1: what that I had a facility for story, for writing. 68 00:04:28,967 --> 00:04:33,407 Speaker 1: She kept pushing me in my writing and she followed 69 00:04:33,447 --> 00:04:36,467 Speaker 1: me and she became the advisor of the school newspaper. 70 00:04:36,546 --> 00:04:39,446 Speaker 1: And she said, Brian, you got to join the school newspaper. 71 00:04:39,467 --> 00:04:42,426 Speaker 1: You got to be part of this effort. And by 72 00:04:42,447 --> 00:04:44,517 Speaker 1: the time I was a senior in high school, I 73 00:04:44,577 --> 00:04:48,056 Speaker 1: was the managing editor of the school newspaper. Well, it's 74 00:04:48,116 --> 00:04:50,257 Speaker 1: not that big a deal, but to me as kind 75 00:04:50,296 --> 00:04:53,687 Speaker 1: of a wallflower kid in high school, That was a 76 00:04:53,726 --> 00:04:57,986 Speaker 1: way for me to shine. And Mrs. Stevens said, well, 77 00:04:58,166 --> 00:04:59,527 Speaker 1: your next step, Brian, is you got to go to 78 00:04:59,566 --> 00:05:03,006 Speaker 1: journalism school. And my parents, they loved me and they 79 00:05:03,066 --> 00:05:07,426 Speaker 1: loved all the storytelling that we would do in our house. 80 00:05:08,226 --> 00:05:11,087 Speaker 1: But I'm not sure they knew that I had that gift. 81 00:05:11,746 --> 00:05:17,247 Speaker 1: So for me, it took that adult champion, Mrs. Stevens, 82 00:05:18,157 --> 00:05:20,157 Speaker 1: in my life to look me in the eye and 83 00:05:20,597 --> 00:05:24,106 Speaker 1: light that fire under me. light that match under me 84 00:05:24,166 --> 00:05:27,167 Speaker 1: and say, you got to do this. And I was 85 00:05:27,246 --> 00:05:34,796 Speaker 1: just smart enough to continue saying yes to her. Then 86 00:05:34,837 --> 00:05:38,276 Speaker 1: there was another adult champion that stepped into my life. 87 00:05:38,816 --> 00:05:41,877 Speaker 1: And it was my uncle, my dad's younger brother, who 88 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:45,916 Speaker 1: was a kind of a world-class worship leader in church work. 89 00:05:46,527 --> 00:05:48,507 Speaker 1: And he took me aside when I was getting ready 90 00:05:48,527 --> 00:05:52,407 Speaker 1: to go to journalism school. And he said, Brian, this 91 00:05:53,226 --> 00:05:56,486 Speaker 1: writing skill that you have is like a musical instrument. 92 00:05:57,226 --> 00:05:59,566 Speaker 1: And he looked me right in the eye. He said, 93 00:06:00,166 --> 00:06:02,787 Speaker 1: don't just get good enough to be in a garage band. 94 00:06:03,647 --> 00:06:07,207 Speaker 1: Get good enough to be in the symphony. And my wife, 95 00:06:07,416 --> 00:06:11,556 Speaker 1: I got married to my beautiful wife, Patty. And she 96 00:06:11,616 --> 00:06:15,097 Speaker 1: introduced me to her great uncle at a Christmas party, 97 00:06:15,537 --> 00:06:19,077 Speaker 1: Uncle Don Ingalls. And he became like the third adult 98 00:06:19,137 --> 00:06:24,207 Speaker 1: champion in my life. Uncle Don was at the top 99 00:06:24,246 --> 00:06:30,017 Speaker 1: of his game as a TV writer and film screenwriter 100 00:06:30,176 --> 00:06:33,177 Speaker 1: and producer. He read my stuff and he said, you know, 101 00:06:33,217 --> 00:06:35,837 Speaker 1: you're a good writer. Have you ever thought about TV 102 00:06:35,897 --> 00:06:39,296 Speaker 1: or film? And I said, well, as a consumer, it's 103 00:06:39,457 --> 00:06:43,097 Speaker 1: all I do. I just eat story like food. And 104 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:46,866 Speaker 1: he said, well, you should consider it. And I wrote 105 00:06:46,986 --> 00:06:50,686 Speaker 1: a script for his show, which he was doing at 106 00:06:50,726 --> 00:06:54,486 Speaker 1: the time, Fantasy Island. And I handed it over to 107 00:06:54,527 --> 00:06:56,347 Speaker 1: him and he read it. He said, you know, this 108 00:06:56,426 --> 00:06:59,826 Speaker 1: is really good. You have some talent here. What I'm 109 00:06:59,847 --> 00:07:01,787 Speaker 1: going to do for you is if we get picked 110 00:07:01,907 --> 00:07:04,607 Speaker 1: up for another season next year, I'm going to try 111 00:07:04,626 --> 00:07:06,606 Speaker 1: to get you in the door to pitch some ideas. 112 00:07:07,947 --> 00:07:11,327 Speaker 1: And he did. It was the most fun I had 113 00:07:11,427 --> 00:07:15,287 Speaker 1: ever had doing anything. I told my wife, I said, somehow, 114 00:07:15,387 --> 00:07:18,007 Speaker 1: some way I got to do more of this. I 115 00:07:18,027 --> 00:07:22,947 Speaker 1: didn't stop. I kept writing scripts and found stories that 116 00:07:23,007 --> 00:07:27,387 Speaker 1: I could tell. And three years later, I continued doing 117 00:07:27,427 --> 00:07:30,127 Speaker 1: my journalism work. But three years later, I got my 118 00:07:30,207 --> 00:07:34,437 Speaker 1: first opportunity to be on the staff of a TV 119 00:07:34,477 --> 00:07:38,816 Speaker 1: show as a story editor. And that was 1989. And 120 00:07:39,037 --> 00:07:45,396 Speaker 1: I have made my living in the business since then, somehow, 121 00:07:45,457 --> 00:07:49,677 Speaker 1: some way. So As a storyteller, I don't save lives, 122 00:07:50,437 --> 00:07:55,487 Speaker 1: but I'm giving life. I'm enriching, I hope, people's lives. 123 00:07:55,927 --> 00:07:59,427 Speaker 1: And that's what I've been called to. These three adult 124 00:07:59,467 --> 00:08:04,507 Speaker 1: champions saw that in me. And they said, you have 125 00:08:04,547 --> 00:08:06,797 Speaker 1: a skill to do this, so you have to do it. 126 00:08:07,847 --> 00:08:12,087 Speaker 1: And when I mentor young people, it's one of the 127 00:08:12,447 --> 00:08:15,097 Speaker 1: things that I tell them is that They have to 128 00:08:15,177 --> 00:08:17,977 Speaker 1: identify the one thing that God made them to do. 129 00:08:19,097 --> 00:08:23,007 Speaker 1: Find three people like me to identify what you're good at. 130 00:08:23,566 --> 00:08:26,266 Speaker 1: Get into the symphony. Don't just be in a garage band. 131 00:08:26,867 --> 00:08:33,227 Speaker 1: So that's my why. That's the why of me and 132 00:08:33,307 --> 00:08:36,937 Speaker 1: why I do what I do. When I was in 133 00:08:36,977 --> 00:08:40,237 Speaker 1: journalism school, I went through sort of a period of 134 00:08:40,497 --> 00:08:45,687 Speaker 1: existential crisis. All the training that came at me, Fast 135 00:08:45,727 --> 00:08:49,247 Speaker 1: and Furious, made me wonder, can I hold on to 136 00:08:49,287 --> 00:08:55,807 Speaker 1: my faith in a very secular occupation? And I had 137 00:08:55,927 --> 00:09:00,457 Speaker 1: a journalism teacher named Dr. Smythe at journalism school who 138 00:09:01,037 --> 00:09:04,657 Speaker 1: was a very kind man, and I stayed after class 139 00:09:04,697 --> 00:09:09,057 Speaker 1: with him, and I asked him, how do I hold 140 00:09:09,217 --> 00:09:14,527 Speaker 1: on to truth in the he gave me a piece 141 00:09:14,627 --> 00:09:21,087 Speaker 1: of wisdom that has stayed with me forever. And he 142 00:09:21,167 --> 00:09:25,237 Speaker 1: said this, don't be afraid of the questions in the 143 00:09:25,297 --> 00:09:31,017 Speaker 1: marketplace of ideas, because truth will always rise to the top. 144 00:09:32,057 --> 00:09:36,037 Speaker 1: Truth will always win, even in the marketplace of ideas. 145 00:09:37,317 --> 00:09:40,747 Speaker 1: And he then gave me the indication that he was 146 00:09:40,887 --> 00:09:45,507 Speaker 1: also a believer in Jesus and And just having somebody 147 00:09:46,007 --> 00:09:50,497 Speaker 1: of that stature in a secular school give me the 148 00:09:50,547 --> 00:09:57,417 Speaker 1: secret handshake was deeply moving to me, but also really 149 00:09:57,497 --> 00:10:01,017 Speaker 1: reassuring to me. And I've held on to that even 150 00:10:01,697 --> 00:10:04,577 Speaker 1: after I left journalism and got into film and television. 151 00:10:04,757 --> 00:10:09,957 Speaker 1: And so I have learned that as tough a business 152 00:10:09,977 --> 00:10:14,837 Speaker 1: as Hollywood can be and as competitive as it can be, 153 00:10:15,317 --> 00:10:19,077 Speaker 1: people are hungry for relationships. Everybody kind of comes and 154 00:10:19,137 --> 00:10:22,337 Speaker 1: goes and you move from one show to another show. 155 00:10:22,937 --> 00:10:26,287 Speaker 1: Sometimes you have these deep, intense relationships with people for 156 00:10:26,697 --> 00:10:29,307 Speaker 1: a short period of time on a movie or a 157 00:10:29,367 --> 00:10:33,387 Speaker 1: TV series. And then you go on with other projects 158 00:10:33,807 --> 00:10:36,047 Speaker 1: and you might not see them again. And so people 159 00:10:36,107 --> 00:10:39,747 Speaker 1: are hungry for friendship. And I found that just by 160 00:10:39,807 --> 00:10:44,006 Speaker 1: being a friend maker as a Christian, not trying to 161 00:10:44,147 --> 00:10:47,817 Speaker 1: preach at people, but just by loving people, they want 162 00:10:47,857 --> 00:10:51,417 Speaker 1: to know why, why I am the way I am. 163 00:10:51,697 --> 00:10:55,217 Speaker 1: They want to know why I have peace in my life, 164 00:10:55,337 --> 00:10:59,266 Speaker 1: why I am content. You have to earn the right 165 00:11:00,027 --> 00:11:03,347 Speaker 1: to share your faith with people. It's not handing them 166 00:11:03,387 --> 00:11:07,247 Speaker 1: a tract. It's handing them a life. It's handing them 167 00:11:07,287 --> 00:11:11,397 Speaker 1: your relationship. So that's my wisdom. And I think that 168 00:11:11,697 --> 00:11:16,387 Speaker 1: about friendships, and about relationship, and about staying connected to 169 00:11:16,417 --> 00:11:19,947 Speaker 1: your own faith can apply to anybody in any field. 170 00:11:22,267 --> 00:11:27,347 Speaker 1: My latest film project came out in April in theaters 171 00:11:27,407 --> 00:11:30,867 Speaker 1: across America, and it's called The Story of Everything. And 172 00:11:31,087 --> 00:11:37,287 Speaker 1: it is a cinematic feast for the eyes, but also 173 00:11:37,387 --> 00:11:41,737 Speaker 1: for the heart and mind. It's based on Dr. Stephen 174 00:11:41,797 --> 00:11:47,777 Speaker 1: Meyer's bestselling book, The Return of the God Hypothesis. And 175 00:11:47,857 --> 00:11:51,217 Speaker 1: we spent five years making this movie. It's a documentary. 176 00:11:51,517 --> 00:12:00,977 Speaker 1: And we interviewed 30 of the world's leading scientists, biochemical engineers, astrophysicists, 177 00:12:01,077 --> 00:12:08,587 Speaker 1: black hole experts, philosophers, mathematicians. They have reviewed the science 178 00:12:08,607 --> 00:12:15,127 Speaker 1: of of the last several decades, and they can't deny 179 00:12:15,177 --> 00:12:18,287 Speaker 1: what's in front of their eyes. And what's in front 180 00:12:18,307 --> 00:12:22,507 Speaker 1: of their eyes is that there's evidence of design in everything, 181 00:12:23,187 --> 00:12:28,247 Speaker 1: from the beginning of the universe, the Big Bang, the 182 00:12:28,307 --> 00:12:33,247 Speaker 1: singularity of the universe, to the fine tuning of the universe, 183 00:12:34,407 --> 00:12:38,697 Speaker 1: to the fine tuning in all of us. We go 184 00:12:38,857 --> 00:12:46,237 Speaker 1: from the Big Bang to the molecules in our cells, 185 00:12:46,997 --> 00:12:50,967 Speaker 1: all the way from the cosmos into the inner cosmos, 186 00:12:51,647 --> 00:12:55,107 Speaker 1: and we put it on screen. And we show that 187 00:12:55,247 --> 00:13:04,097 Speaker 1: we have in us these elaborate, sophisticated machines working in 188 00:13:04,157 --> 00:13:14,357 Speaker 1: our cells that are molecular systems, information-bearing systems. And they 189 00:13:14,737 --> 00:13:19,377 Speaker 1: didn't make themselves. They could not have made themselves. So 190 00:13:19,617 --> 00:13:22,367 Speaker 1: the story of everything tells the story of the cosmos 191 00:13:23,087 --> 00:13:26,927 Speaker 1: and the cosmos inside of us and the design that's 192 00:13:27,007 --> 00:13:30,267 Speaker 1: in us. And it took us five years to make. 193 00:13:30,307 --> 00:13:34,427 Speaker 1: It was a labor of love. And now close to 194 00:13:34,487 --> 00:13:37,737 Speaker 1: half a million people have watched the movie. And we 195 00:13:37,817 --> 00:13:44,467 Speaker 1: couldn't be more thrilled with the results. You know, what 196 00:13:44,507 --> 00:13:51,307 Speaker 1: I've learned about the audience and about the craft of 197 00:13:51,847 --> 00:13:57,067 Speaker 1: creating stories for the audience is that if you find 198 00:13:57,087 --> 00:14:02,437 Speaker 1: an island full of starving people and you give them food, 199 00:14:03,137 --> 00:14:07,117 Speaker 1: they will love you for it. It's not more complicated 200 00:14:07,177 --> 00:14:11,957 Speaker 1: than that. And I think in the world today, there's 201 00:14:11,997 --> 00:14:17,427 Speaker 1: so much cynical content out there that people are starved 202 00:14:17,487 --> 00:14:22,987 Speaker 1: to death for content that is not cynical, content that 203 00:14:23,207 --> 00:14:31,367 Speaker 1: is even idealistic, that inspires them to reach for their 204 00:14:31,387 --> 00:14:35,227 Speaker 1: higher selves, that helps them feel like there's part of 205 00:14:35,307 --> 00:14:40,467 Speaker 1: something bigger than themselves. And there's not that much content 206 00:14:40,507 --> 00:14:44,707 Speaker 1: out there that does that anymore. That's something that, for me, 207 00:14:44,787 --> 00:14:48,707 Speaker 1: that has been quite an education, but also a great honor. 208 00:14:50,877 --> 00:14:54,817 Speaker 1: I would love to read one of my favorites, December 209 00:14:54,817 --> 00:15:00,477 Speaker 1: 14 of Jesus Listens. Oh, most high, as I declare 210 00:15:00,517 --> 00:15:04,537 Speaker 1: the wonders of your loving presence, I find strength in 211 00:15:04,887 --> 00:15:10,037 Speaker 1: and encouragement in you. This glorious blessing flows into me 212 00:15:10,217 --> 00:15:13,657 Speaker 1: even more fully when I speak the words out loud. 213 00:15:14,757 --> 00:15:18,097 Speaker 1: As I am proclaiming your love, help me to rejoice 214 00:15:18,417 --> 00:15:24,297 Speaker 1: with joy that's inexpressible and filled with glory. Your amazing 215 00:15:24,387 --> 00:15:32,127 Speaker 1: love is sacrificial, unfailing, priceless, and boundless. Reaching to the heavens, 216 00:15:32,827 --> 00:15:36,767 Speaker 1: it shines so brightly and it can carry me through 217 00:15:36,827 --> 00:15:40,947 Speaker 1: all my days, even the darkest ones. When I get 218 00:15:41,027 --> 00:15:44,527 Speaker 1: to the end of each day, it's time to declare 219 00:15:44,627 --> 00:15:49,517 Speaker 1: your faithfulness that reaches to the skies. As I look 220 00:15:49,657 --> 00:15:53,997 Speaker 1: back over the day, I can see how skillfully you 221 00:15:54,037 --> 00:15:58,717 Speaker 1: guided me and opened up the way before me. The 222 00:15:58,757 --> 00:16:04,607 Speaker 1: more difficulties I encountered, the more you enabled, empowered, And 223 00:16:04,657 --> 00:16:12,527 Speaker 1: equip me to overcome those obstacles. In your peaceful name, Jesus. Amen. 224 00:16:14,707 --> 00:16:17,107 Speaker 2: To learn more about Brian Bird, you can follow him 225 00:16:17,167 --> 00:16:19,547 Speaker 2: on social media. And be sure to check out his 226 00:16:19,587 --> 00:16:27,527 Speaker 2: latest film, The Story of Everything, by visiting thestoryofeverything.film. Stay 227 00:16:27,567 --> 00:16:39,567 Speaker 2: tuned to Alistair McGrath's story after a brief message. Enjoy 228 00:16:39,687 --> 00:16:43,887 Speaker 2: abundant gratitude this fall as you reflect on God's overflowing blessings. 229 00:16:44,547 --> 00:16:48,447 Speaker 2: Jesus Calling, Harvest of Blessings, can help you focus on 230 00:16:48,497 --> 00:16:52,237 Speaker 2: your blessings and cultivate a gratitude mindset, allowing you to 231 00:16:52,297 --> 00:16:55,657 Speaker 2: center your mind more on Jesus and less on stress 232 00:16:55,737 --> 00:17:02,097 Speaker 2: and anxiety. This inspirational full-color devotional includes stunning autumn seasonal photography, 233 00:17:02,517 --> 00:17:05,877 Speaker 2: Bible verses, and words of hope from God's heart to yours, 234 00:17:06,477 --> 00:17:10,517 Speaker 2: and 50 Reflections on Gratitude, Thankfulness and God's Blessings from 235 00:17:10,597 --> 00:17:15,256 Speaker 2: Sarah Young's bestselling, Jesus Calling. This volume is perfect for 236 00:17:15,297 --> 00:17:18,777 Speaker 2: families who want to cultivate a tradition of counting blessings together, 237 00:17:19,157 --> 00:17:21,737 Speaker 2: those who are looking to deepen their experience of trusting God, 238 00:17:22,147 --> 00:17:24,726 Speaker 2: and those who want to walk closely with Jesus and 239 00:17:24,767 --> 00:17:28,987 Speaker 2: begin daily habits of expressing thankfulness. Be inspired to walk 240 00:17:29,047 --> 00:17:32,067 Speaker 2: more closely with Jesus as you focus on Him and 241 00:17:32,087 --> 00:17:35,387 Speaker 2: the blessings He has put in your life. Find Jesus Calling, 242 00:17:35,687 --> 00:17:44,557 Speaker 2: Harvest of Blessings at your favorite retailer. Our next guest 243 00:17:44,617 --> 00:17:48,216 Speaker 2: is Alistair McGrath, a senior research fellow in theology at 244 00:17:48,357 --> 00:17:53,117 Speaker 2: Oxford University, who arrived on campus an outspoken atheist and left, 245 00:17:53,477 --> 00:17:56,897 Speaker 2: having found a faith that answered questions science alone couldn't. 246 00:17:58,537 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 3: My name is Alistair McGrath, and I'm a senior research 247 00:18:01,277 --> 00:18:04,857 Speaker 3: fellow in theology at Oxford University. I used to be 248 00:18:04,877 --> 00:18:06,997 Speaker 3: a scientist, and I also used to be an atheist. 249 00:18:07,157 --> 00:18:09,657 Speaker 3: And one of the great turning points in my life 250 00:18:09,697 --> 00:18:18,727 Speaker 3: was discovering Christianity as an undergraduate at Oxford University. I 251 00:18:18,767 --> 00:18:21,927 Speaker 3: grew up in Northern Ireland and I enjoyed living in 252 00:18:21,947 --> 00:18:23,787 Speaker 3: the countryside. Then we moved to the city and I 253 00:18:23,847 --> 00:18:25,987 Speaker 3: lived in the city of Belfast where I went to school. 254 00:18:26,607 --> 00:18:29,196 Speaker 3: And I really became very excited about science when I 255 00:18:29,207 --> 00:18:32,207 Speaker 3: was a teenager. But I bought into this idea that 256 00:18:32,337 --> 00:18:36,337 Speaker 3: science and religion were completely incompatible. If you were a scientist, 257 00:18:36,377 --> 00:18:37,917 Speaker 3: you had to be an atheist. And that was what 258 00:18:37,937 --> 00:18:41,517 Speaker 3: people thought back in the late 1960s. But that idea 259 00:18:41,557 --> 00:18:44,157 Speaker 3: has long since been shown to be completely nonsense. But 260 00:18:44,257 --> 00:18:47,196 Speaker 3: at that time, it was very prevalent. I really became 261 00:18:47,727 --> 00:18:50,946 Speaker 3: quite an aggressive atheist from the age of 16 onwards. 262 00:18:51,007 --> 00:18:53,667 Speaker 3: I just couldn't see what religion was all about. I 263 00:18:53,807 --> 00:18:57,567 Speaker 3: couldn't see why believing in God made any difference to anyone. 264 00:18:58,407 --> 00:19:02,287 Speaker 3: And I did have some difficulties with atheism. And one 265 00:19:02,327 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 3: of them was that atheism seemed to involve believing that 266 00:19:06,017 --> 00:19:08,137 Speaker 3: there is no God, but not being able to prove 267 00:19:08,177 --> 00:19:10,557 Speaker 3: that there is no God. But I held on to 268 00:19:10,577 --> 00:19:12,597 Speaker 3: my atheism because I thought when I go to Oxford 269 00:19:12,617 --> 00:19:15,777 Speaker 3: University to study chemistry, I'm going to meet some really 270 00:19:15,817 --> 00:19:20,037 Speaker 3: intelligent atheists who will deal with my doubts. But unfortunately, 271 00:19:20,077 --> 00:19:23,697 Speaker 3: when I got to Oxford, I met some extremely intelligent Christians, 272 00:19:23,757 --> 00:19:26,857 Speaker 3: many of whom were natural scientists, who really put me right. 273 00:19:26,917 --> 00:19:28,956 Speaker 3: And I discovered a whole new way of thinking. And 274 00:19:28,997 --> 00:19:32,567 Speaker 3: that's when I became a Christian. When I arrived at Oxford, 275 00:19:32,587 --> 00:19:34,787 Speaker 3: I was still an atheist. But I was an atheist 276 00:19:34,807 --> 00:19:38,127 Speaker 3: who was really saying, look, I think there's some problems here. 277 00:19:38,167 --> 00:19:40,206 Speaker 3: And I hope someone's going to be able to sort 278 00:19:40,267 --> 00:19:43,337 Speaker 3: me out. And what I discovered very, very quickly was 279 00:19:43,397 --> 00:19:46,857 Speaker 3: that many of my friends who were studying scientists were Christians. 280 00:19:46,877 --> 00:19:51,186 Speaker 3: And they didn't see any conflict between Christianity and science 281 00:19:51,247 --> 00:19:54,107 Speaker 3: at all. They took the view that Christianity deals with 282 00:19:54,187 --> 00:19:57,567 Speaker 3: a deeper level of reality. than science and they took 283 00:19:57,587 --> 00:19:59,967 Speaker 3: the view that basically Christianity is saying here is what 284 00:20:00,077 --> 00:20:02,857 Speaker 3: life is all about in terms of meaning where science 285 00:20:02,897 --> 00:20:05,837 Speaker 3: helps to understand how our universe functions. I began to 286 00:20:06,257 --> 00:20:08,577 Speaker 3: think things aren't quite as simple as I had thought 287 00:20:09,137 --> 00:20:11,817 Speaker 3: but I think what really made me change my mind 288 00:20:11,857 --> 00:20:15,827 Speaker 3: was talking to individual Christians about the difference that their 289 00:20:15,937 --> 00:20:19,487 Speaker 3: faith made to their lives. Because as a teenage atheist 290 00:20:19,507 --> 00:20:23,187 Speaker 3: in Belfast, one of my thoughts had been that basically 291 00:20:23,587 --> 00:20:26,427 Speaker 3: belief in God makes no difference to you whatsoever. It's 292 00:20:26,447 --> 00:20:29,607 Speaker 3: just an idea in your head. It doesn't really do 293 00:20:29,687 --> 00:20:32,367 Speaker 3: anything for you. And my Christian friends at Oxford were 294 00:20:32,407 --> 00:20:35,627 Speaker 3: saying something very, very different. They were saying believing in God, 295 00:20:35,667 --> 00:20:37,267 Speaker 3: believing in Christ gives. 296 00:20:37,107 --> 00:20:38,987 Speaker 1: You a whole new vision of reality. 297 00:20:39,007 --> 00:20:41,247 Speaker 3: It gives you a new reason to live. a new 298 00:20:41,327 --> 00:20:44,267 Speaker 3: reason to hope. And I began to realize that Christianity 299 00:20:44,287 --> 00:20:47,167 Speaker 3: seemed to be much more interesting and engaging than I thought. 300 00:20:47,207 --> 00:20:50,997 Speaker 3: And also, it had the capacity to change people's lives. 301 00:20:51,717 --> 00:20:55,237 Speaker 3: So really, during my first term at Oxford, I began 302 00:20:55,277 --> 00:20:59,137 Speaker 3: to move from an atheist with doubts to a Christian 303 00:20:59,177 --> 00:21:02,496 Speaker 3: who still wasn't quite sure about things, but knew that 304 00:21:02,547 --> 00:21:10,077 Speaker 3: this seemed to be where the future laid. I was 305 00:21:10,337 --> 00:21:14,037 Speaker 3: studying the biomedical sciences in the first part of my 306 00:21:14,097 --> 00:21:17,417 Speaker 3: doctoral program at Oxford. I felt that my future might 307 00:21:17,457 --> 00:21:21,347 Speaker 3: well lie in the biomedical field. And so doing a 308 00:21:21,407 --> 00:21:23,847 Speaker 3: doctoral research in that field seemed to make a lot 309 00:21:23,867 --> 00:21:27,727 Speaker 3: of sense. But my problem was that I'd read Christian 310 00:21:27,767 --> 00:21:31,667 Speaker 3: writers like C.S. Lewis and was getting very excited about 311 00:21:32,187 --> 00:21:35,087 Speaker 3: the idea of studying Christian theology. In other words, I 312 00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:38,337 Speaker 3: wanted to go deeper into the Christian faith. And I 313 00:21:38,377 --> 00:21:41,897 Speaker 3: began to have this dream of one day studying theology 314 00:21:42,277 --> 00:21:44,537 Speaker 3: and perhaps having a better understanding of what it was 315 00:21:44,577 --> 00:21:47,787 Speaker 3: that Christians actually believed and why it was so interesting. 316 00:21:48,407 --> 00:21:51,087 Speaker 3: And so I found myself really at a turning point 317 00:21:51,127 --> 00:21:54,506 Speaker 3: in my life where I loved science and still believe 318 00:21:54,567 --> 00:21:57,427 Speaker 3: my future might lie in science. But at the same time, 319 00:21:57,447 --> 00:22:01,087 Speaker 3: I was having this real, real longing to immerse myself 320 00:22:01,247 --> 00:22:05,727 Speaker 3: deeply in Christian thinking, deeply in the Bible, in really 321 00:22:05,747 --> 00:22:08,677 Speaker 3: understanding what this was all about. And I began to 322 00:22:08,737 --> 00:22:12,517 Speaker 3: find a tension developing between wanting to keep going with 323 00:22:12,597 --> 00:22:15,956 Speaker 3: my science and at the same time wanting to study theology. 324 00:22:16,607 --> 00:22:18,767 Speaker 3: And in the end, I managed to gain a scholarship 325 00:22:18,807 --> 00:22:20,987 Speaker 3: at Oxford University, which allowed me to do both things. 326 00:22:21,027 --> 00:22:23,446 Speaker 3: In other words, keep on doing my research in the 327 00:22:23,487 --> 00:22:27,777 Speaker 3: biomedical sciences and also study theology. And the result was 328 00:22:27,877 --> 00:22:30,527 Speaker 3: after three years or so, I had my doctorate in 329 00:22:30,547 --> 00:22:34,567 Speaker 3: molecular biophysics, and I had an undergraduate degree in theology. 330 00:22:35,067 --> 00:22:36,827 Speaker 3: And that really, I think, set me up for the 331 00:22:36,867 --> 00:22:41,246 Speaker 3: rest of my academic life. I loved studying Christianity, and 332 00:22:41,267 --> 00:22:44,017 Speaker 3: I wanted to make connections with science. But I also 333 00:22:44,157 --> 00:22:46,217 Speaker 3: began to realize there was a need to be able 334 00:22:46,237 --> 00:22:48,837 Speaker 3: to connect up with people beyond the church, be able 335 00:22:48,877 --> 00:22:51,677 Speaker 3: to deal with the questions that they had about faith, 336 00:22:51,777 --> 00:22:54,937 Speaker 3: as indeed I had, as an atheist, had some very 337 00:22:54,957 --> 00:22:57,727 Speaker 3: good questions. I was able to find very good answers 338 00:22:57,807 --> 00:23:01,466 Speaker 3: to them. I began to develop this idea, maybe I 339 00:23:01,487 --> 00:23:04,767 Speaker 3: could be somebody who could bridge the gap between Christianity 340 00:23:04,817 --> 00:23:07,817 Speaker 3: and atheism. And so that, in a nutshell, is really 341 00:23:07,877 --> 00:23:11,477 Speaker 3: how I began my pilgrimage of discovery, in which I 342 00:23:11,557 --> 00:23:15,837 Speaker 3: gradually became a Christian apologist, focusing especially on the relation 343 00:23:15,917 --> 00:23:22,397 Speaker 3: of Christianity and the natural sciences. And so I think 344 00:23:22,437 --> 00:23:25,377 Speaker 3: we find ourselves in a very interesting position at the moment. 345 00:23:25,837 --> 00:23:29,407 Speaker 3: People are disillusioned with secularism, which promised to answer their 346 00:23:29,417 --> 00:23:33,387 Speaker 3: questions and didn't. And so they're looking around and they're asking, 347 00:23:33,747 --> 00:23:39,486 Speaker 3: is there some way of thinking that could be deep, satisfying, 348 00:23:40,027 --> 00:23:42,407 Speaker 3: dealt with all the questions I really want to ask? 349 00:23:42,887 --> 00:23:45,337 Speaker 3: And they're beginning to think, look, Christianity has been around 350 00:23:45,377 --> 00:23:49,357 Speaker 3: for 2,000 years. Maybe it's found something that really is 351 00:23:49,417 --> 00:23:53,227 Speaker 3: worth exploring again. What I'm finding in my many conversations 352 00:23:53,247 --> 00:23:57,437 Speaker 3: with people is this growing realization that Christianity has this 353 00:23:57,517 --> 00:24:01,077 Speaker 3: ability to really set out a worldview that is not 354 00:24:01,117 --> 00:24:04,157 Speaker 3: going to disappear tomorrow and also seems to have this 355 00:24:04,337 --> 00:24:07,037 Speaker 3: deep ability to make sense of life and give us 356 00:24:07,077 --> 00:24:11,147 Speaker 3: a sense of personal identity and personal stability. Christian apologetics 357 00:24:11,187 --> 00:24:14,567 Speaker 3: has tended to focus on showing that Christianity is right. 358 00:24:15,167 --> 00:24:17,927 Speaker 3: But in our present cultural moment, I think one of 359 00:24:17,947 --> 00:24:21,387 Speaker 3: the key questions is, Can you tell us what difference 360 00:24:21,437 --> 00:24:24,237 Speaker 3: it makes to us? How does it help us find 361 00:24:24,327 --> 00:24:26,367 Speaker 3: meaning in life? How does it in effect give us 362 00:24:26,427 --> 00:24:29,647 Speaker 3: a secure basis for life? And that means that apologetics, 363 00:24:29,687 --> 00:24:32,167 Speaker 3: I think, is moving in a new direction. We need 364 00:24:32,187 --> 00:24:35,466 Speaker 3: to be able to reassure people Christianity is true, but 365 00:24:35,507 --> 00:24:37,567 Speaker 3: we also need to be able to show to them 366 00:24:37,987 --> 00:24:43,387 Speaker 3: it really transforms life. It's a trustworthy truth that transforms us. 367 00:24:43,887 --> 00:24:47,767 Speaker 3: The cultural mood in North America has changed. It's changed 368 00:24:47,787 --> 00:24:50,537 Speaker 3: because people are realizing that A lot of things that 369 00:24:50,597 --> 00:24:54,367 Speaker 3: seem stable and secure, in fact, are not so. And 370 00:24:54,387 --> 00:24:56,887 Speaker 3: they're looking for something on which they can base their 371 00:24:57,047 --> 00:25:00,687 Speaker 3: lives and give them stability and security. And that's why 372 00:25:00,747 --> 00:25:04,587 Speaker 3: I think Christ's very powerful image of the rock in 373 00:25:04,667 --> 00:25:08,387 Speaker 3: Matthew chapter 7 is so important here. Because Christ is 374 00:25:08,427 --> 00:25:11,467 Speaker 3: saying we all need to build our houses on a rock, 375 00:25:11,807 --> 00:25:15,507 Speaker 3: something stable and secure, rather than on sands which will 376 00:25:15,557 --> 00:25:18,957 Speaker 3: simply collapse when the winds and storms of life break 377 00:25:19,017 --> 00:25:23,456 Speaker 3: upon it. Christianity has this remarkable ability to give us 378 00:25:23,557 --> 00:25:24,887 Speaker 3: stability and security. 379 00:25:25,227 --> 00:25:27,107 Speaker 1: It's true. It's trustworthy. 380 00:25:27,347 --> 00:25:31,667 Speaker 3: It's transformative. And we need to rediscover these things as 381 00:25:31,707 --> 00:25:34,447 Speaker 3: we move forward. And it's also very important, I think, 382 00:25:34,467 --> 00:25:37,706 Speaker 3: when dealing with what we call religious nuns. They are 383 00:25:37,747 --> 00:25:41,297 Speaker 3: people who don't at the moment align themselves with any 384 00:25:41,357 --> 00:25:45,476 Speaker 3: particular religious tradition, but they are still thinking about things 385 00:25:45,937 --> 00:25:49,117 Speaker 3: and many of them have deep spiritual ideas and they're 386 00:25:49,157 --> 00:25:52,917 Speaker 3: looking for something that might really connect with them and 387 00:25:52,937 --> 00:25:54,996 Speaker 3: give them a fresh vision of life and what it's 388 00:25:55,057 --> 00:25:57,737 Speaker 3: all about. And so I think Christianity can speak very, 389 00:25:57,797 --> 00:26:01,127 Speaker 3: very powerfully to people like that in this present cultural moment, 390 00:26:01,427 --> 00:26:03,467 Speaker 3: and we need to figure out ways of helping them 391 00:26:03,927 --> 00:26:13,767 Speaker 3: rediscover what's so vital and exciting about Christianity. I think 392 00:26:13,827 --> 00:26:16,966 Speaker 3: I've often felt that I'm thinking through questions which I 393 00:26:17,147 --> 00:26:20,687 Speaker 3: know are important to a lot of people, but very 394 00:26:20,747 --> 00:26:23,277 Speaker 3: often I feel that not everyone sees this. And so 395 00:26:23,337 --> 00:26:26,757 Speaker 3: I do at times feel a little bit on my own. However, 396 00:26:27,347 --> 00:26:30,027 Speaker 3: One of the great things about Christianity is it's not 397 00:26:30,087 --> 00:26:32,507 Speaker 3: a journey we make through life on our own. We 398 00:26:33,047 --> 00:26:36,407 Speaker 3: are joined by traveling companions who very often help us 399 00:26:36,447 --> 00:26:38,827 Speaker 3: to see things in a new way and very often 400 00:26:38,867 --> 00:26:42,747 Speaker 3: provide us with reassurance and comfort. C.S. Lewis was my 401 00:26:42,847 --> 00:26:46,547 Speaker 3: first and remains my favorite traveling companion. Because when I 402 00:26:46,587 --> 00:26:51,157 Speaker 3: became a Christian, I was always thinking about questions and 403 00:26:51,217 --> 00:26:53,857 Speaker 3: my Christian friends find them difficult to answer. And they said, look, 404 00:26:53,937 --> 00:26:54,857 Speaker 3: please read C.S. 405 00:26:54,897 --> 00:26:55,157 Speaker 1: Lewis. 406 00:26:55,477 --> 00:26:58,307 Speaker 3: And I did. And he really was. amazingly good, and 407 00:26:58,347 --> 00:27:01,747 Speaker 3: he's still someone who I read to this day. I 408 00:27:01,787 --> 00:27:04,387 Speaker 3: had this idea that Christianity was a set of ideas 409 00:27:04,467 --> 00:27:07,507 Speaker 3: that seemed to be true and also seemed to give 410 00:27:07,557 --> 00:27:10,867 Speaker 3: me a kind of framework for living my life. But 411 00:27:10,887 --> 00:27:13,227 Speaker 3: I think one of the things I didn't really fully 412 00:27:13,267 --> 00:27:16,727 Speaker 3: appreciate was that Christianity was giving me more than just 413 00:27:16,767 --> 00:27:20,637 Speaker 3: a kind of intellectual framework. It was strongly relational. This 414 00:27:20,657 --> 00:27:23,996 Speaker 3: is about a friendship, a relationship with a living God 415 00:27:24,297 --> 00:27:27,237 Speaker 3: who journeys with you as your shepherd through life wherever 416 00:27:27,297 --> 00:27:29,956 Speaker 3: you are going. I think one of the things I 417 00:27:29,977 --> 00:27:34,047 Speaker 3: have realized over time is that in my first moment 418 00:27:34,247 --> 00:27:39,427 Speaker 3: as a I was really very, very focused on Christianity 419 00:27:39,487 --> 00:27:42,687 Speaker 3: as a set of ideas. And as I grew older 420 00:27:42,707 --> 00:27:45,007 Speaker 3: and began to grow in my faith, I began to 421 00:27:45,067 --> 00:27:48,257 Speaker 3: realize that actually Christianity is not simply a set of ideas. 422 00:27:48,717 --> 00:27:53,417 Speaker 3: It's really about our relationship with God, which deepens. It's 423 00:27:53,457 --> 00:27:57,617 Speaker 3: about walking through life hand in hand with our Lord 424 00:27:57,657 --> 00:28:00,717 Speaker 3: and our Savior. And I think also began to realize 425 00:28:00,737 --> 00:28:03,627 Speaker 3: that it's not simply believing in a set of ideas 426 00:28:03,647 --> 00:28:06,607 Speaker 3: that It's about walking in the presence of God and 427 00:28:06,767 --> 00:28:10,226 Speaker 3: realizing the ways in which God utterly transforms us. 428 00:28:13,547 --> 00:28:16,527 Speaker 2: To learn more about Alistair McGrath, look for his new book, 429 00:28:16,817 --> 00:28:21,577 Speaker 2: Rethinking Christianity, a thoughtful guide to a life-changing faith, coming 430 00:28:21,637 --> 00:28:25,477 Speaker 2: out on October 27th. If you'd like to hear more 431 00:28:25,517 --> 00:28:28,977 Speaker 2: stories about skeptics who found faith after examining the evidence, 432 00:28:29,537 --> 00:28:37,747 Speaker 2: check out our interview with Josh McDowell. Next time on 433 00:28:37,767 --> 00:28:41,227 Speaker 2: the Jesus Calling podcast, we'll hear from author Francine Rivers, 434 00:28:41,447 --> 00:28:44,197 Speaker 2: who reflects on 56 years of marriage and what caring 435 00:28:44,237 --> 00:28:47,177 Speaker 2: for her husband, Rick, through Parkinson's disease has taught her 436 00:28:47,217 --> 00:28:48,677 Speaker 2: about love and letting go. 437 00:28:50,577 --> 00:28:54,197 Speaker 1: Rick was diagnosed probably around 20 years ago, and Parkinson's 438 00:28:54,217 --> 00:28:55,667 Speaker 1: is a very slow killer. 439 00:28:56,087 --> 00:28:58,807 Speaker 3: The hardest part, I think, for him has been the 440 00:28:58,947 --> 00:29:00,307 Speaker 3: increasing limitations. 441 00:29:00,727 --> 00:29:04,247 Speaker 1: We spend time together. We read together. And it's just 442 00:29:04,427 --> 00:29:09,187 Speaker 1: your relationship changes out of necessity. I think you learn 443 00:29:09,917 --> 00:29:11,747 Speaker 1: and you grow together. 444 00:29:15,917 --> 00:29:18,417 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the Jesus Calling Stories of Faith 445 00:29:18,457 --> 00:29:22,317 Speaker 2: podcast on the Life Audio Network. Every week we'll bring 446 00:29:22,337 --> 00:29:24,897 Speaker 2: you stories from people who share their journeys of faith 447 00:29:25,357 --> 00:29:28,917 Speaker 2: and how prayer and a relationship with God transformed their lives. 448 00:29:29,837 --> 00:29:33,167 Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or 449 00:29:33,207 --> 00:29:36,487 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to podcasts. And leave us a review 450 00:29:36,567 --> 00:29:40,737 Speaker 2: so others can be inspired weekly by these stories of faith. Finally, 451 00:29:41,077 --> 00:29:44,537 Speaker 2: you can find encouragement, resources, and more on the Jesus 452 00:29:44,557 --> 00:29:46,817 Speaker 2: Calling website at jesuscalling.com.