1
00:00:08,165 --> 00:00:12,385
Speaker 1: Life Audio. But how great would it have been if

2
00:00:12,425 --> 00:00:14,735
Speaker 1: Saul would have been like a Yoda to David? He

3
00:00:14,815 --> 00:00:16,995
Speaker 1: never encouraged him. All the guy ever did was kill

4
00:00:17,035 --> 00:00:20,454
Speaker 1: your giants, take care of your problems, bring back bags

5
00:00:20,495 --> 00:00:22,525
Speaker 1: of foreskins, and you're just going to try and kill

6
00:00:22,535 --> 00:00:22,695
Speaker 1: the guy?

7
00:00:22,715 --> 00:00:24,544
Speaker 2: Bring back bags of foreskins. I think that should be

8
00:00:24,605 --> 00:00:33,215
Speaker 2: the title of your next book. Levi, thanks for being

9
00:00:33,255 --> 00:00:35,935
Speaker 2: on my podcast. And I'm trying to remember the first

10
00:00:35,975 --> 00:00:37,934
Speaker 2: time we met. Do you remember when that was?

11
00:00:38,335 --> 00:00:43,574
Speaker 1: Yes. Well, you were touring Calvary of Albuquerque with Pastor

12
00:00:43,595 --> 00:00:45,534
Speaker 1: Skip and just walking around. He was showing you like

13
00:00:45,555 --> 00:00:47,775
Speaker 1: the facilities and you guys came through the office where

14
00:00:47,795 --> 00:00:48,855
Speaker 1: all the youth pastors worked.

15
00:00:48,995 --> 00:00:49,214
Speaker 2: Right.

16
00:00:49,354 --> 00:00:51,074
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my gosh, that's great glory.

17
00:00:51,135 --> 00:00:52,675
Speaker 1: You know, I was very nervous, but I stood up

18
00:00:52,714 --> 00:00:53,315
Speaker 1: and met you.

19
00:00:53,495 --> 00:00:54,175
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

20
00:00:54,215 --> 00:00:55,215
Speaker 1: And then the next time.

21
00:00:55,235 --> 00:00:58,995
Speaker 2: Because your dad actually worked there with Skip, your dad Chip. Yep.

22
00:00:59,175 --> 00:01:01,975
Speaker 2: Who's now with the Lord. Yep. So you were kind

23
00:01:02,575 --> 00:01:04,535
Speaker 2: of a little bit hang around the church kind of kid?

24
00:01:04,615 --> 00:01:06,435
Speaker 2: Or were you involved in ministry at that point?

25
00:01:06,685 --> 00:01:09,145
Speaker 1: So at that point, I was the youth pastor when

26
00:01:09,165 --> 00:01:12,265
Speaker 1: I met you there. But I was a hang out.

27
00:01:12,205 --> 00:01:13,425
Speaker 2: In the church kid.

28
00:01:13,444 --> 00:01:15,685
Speaker 1: I used to work in the tape room. My job

29
00:01:15,725 --> 00:01:18,865
Speaker 1: was to duplicate the tape cassettes and then put the

30
00:01:18,905 --> 00:01:21,244
Speaker 1: labels on them. But it was frantic because pastors would

31
00:01:21,265 --> 00:01:23,855
Speaker 1: finish preaching. There'd be a closing song and announcements. And

32
00:01:23,895 --> 00:01:26,115
Speaker 1: we had only that much time to make all these tapes,

33
00:01:26,175 --> 00:01:28,015
Speaker 1: put the labels on. So we pre-make the labels.

34
00:01:28,035 --> 00:01:28,815
Speaker 2: I remember it well.

35
00:01:28,834 --> 00:01:30,354
Speaker 1: We had to shut them in the plastic sleeve.

36
00:01:30,375 --> 00:01:32,395
Speaker 2: For those that are listening, don't know what we're talking about.

37
00:01:32,855 --> 00:01:35,675
Speaker 2: Back in the day, everything was on cassette tapes. I

38
00:01:35,715 --> 00:01:39,765
Speaker 2: was cutting edge technology at one point. And so everybody

39
00:01:39,804 --> 00:01:42,065
Speaker 2: would want to get a tape of the message after

40
00:01:42,084 --> 00:01:42,305
Speaker 2: the service.

41
00:01:42,325 --> 00:01:45,265
Speaker 1: But it was not easy because you'd have to physically

42
00:01:45,405 --> 00:01:48,095
Speaker 1: run the master from the sound booth. down to the

43
00:01:48,175 --> 00:01:51,255
Speaker 1: tape room. And we had all these tape duplicating machines

44
00:01:51,335 --> 00:01:52,485
Speaker 1: ready with all the blanks in them.

45
00:01:52,645 --> 00:01:53,405
Speaker 2: Oh, that's hilarious.

46
00:01:53,425 --> 00:01:55,325
Speaker 1: Slap the master in, and they'd all start going. Then

47
00:01:55,345 --> 00:01:56,805
Speaker 1: you'd have to flip them all over to record side B. Yeah,

48
00:01:56,845 --> 00:01:58,965
Speaker 1: you'd have to flip them over. If Pastor Skip went long.

49
00:01:59,025 --> 00:02:00,485
Speaker 1: I forgot all that. Because it could only be 30

50
00:02:00,485 --> 00:02:02,875
Speaker 1: minutes per side. Yeah. So side B would be the

51
00:02:02,915 --> 00:02:04,235
Speaker 1: second half of his talk or whatever.

52
00:02:04,275 --> 00:02:07,175
Speaker 2: I couldn't miss cassette tapes. There was something so simple

53
00:02:07,235 --> 00:02:07,675
Speaker 2: about them.

54
00:02:07,695 --> 00:02:09,055
Speaker 1: Something very nostalgic.

55
00:02:09,495 --> 00:02:12,315
Speaker 2: Okay, so anyway, so you saw me and we met.

56
00:02:12,435 --> 00:02:13,245
Speaker 2: Was I nice to you?

57
00:02:13,345 --> 00:02:15,525
Speaker 1: You were so nice. Yeah, you stopped. You said hello.

58
00:02:15,585 --> 00:02:17,385
Speaker 2: I'm glad it wasn't one of those times where you

59
00:02:17,425 --> 00:02:18,765
Speaker 2: were rude. No, no, no, no.

60
00:02:19,025 --> 00:02:21,205
Speaker 1: You were great. And I told you, I think, that

61
00:02:21,485 --> 00:02:26,595
Speaker 1: I would do evangelistic sermons in the youth ministry. Pastor

62
00:02:26,615 --> 00:02:29,055
Speaker 1: Skip at the church had built a skate park. So

63
00:02:29,095 --> 00:02:31,725
Speaker 1: we would bring out Pro skaters, they would do demos

64
00:02:31,805 --> 00:02:33,865
Speaker 1: and then tons of kids would come out and I would,

65
00:02:34,145 --> 00:02:37,435
Speaker 1: you know, give the evangelistic sermon and I would watch

66
00:02:37,475 --> 00:02:40,915
Speaker 1: your and study your Harvest Crusade preaching, how you put

67
00:02:40,935 --> 00:02:43,155
Speaker 1: the message together. And, you know, so I was very

68
00:02:43,195 --> 00:02:44,235
Speaker 1: excited to get to meet you.

69
00:02:44,515 --> 00:02:44,905
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

70
00:02:45,085 --> 00:02:46,605
Speaker 1: And of course, as you know, I've been listening to

71
00:02:46,625 --> 00:02:48,835
Speaker 1: you since I was like five years old. I started

72
00:02:48,875 --> 00:02:50,135
Speaker 1: telling people I was going to be a pastor when

73
00:02:50,155 --> 00:02:50,615
Speaker 1: I was two.

74
00:02:50,635 --> 00:02:51,035
Speaker 2: No way.

75
00:02:51,055 --> 00:02:53,335
Speaker 1: It was the only thing I ever wanted to do.

76
00:02:53,335 --> 00:02:56,225
Speaker 1: My dad was a bivocational pastor. He had worked in media,

77
00:02:56,245 --> 00:02:58,985
Speaker 1: but then started a couple churches. And so I grew

78
00:02:59,045 --> 00:03:02,005
Speaker 1: up literally helping set up for the church or being around.

79
00:03:02,325 --> 00:03:03,485
Speaker 1: I was like little Samuel.

80
00:03:03,605 --> 00:03:06,225
Speaker 2: Oh, so cute. So yeah. It's like the opposite of

81
00:03:06,265 --> 00:03:09,145
Speaker 2: my son, Jonathan. That's like the last thing he wanted

82
00:03:09,205 --> 00:03:11,235
Speaker 2: to do. But then he felt a call in his

83
00:03:11,325 --> 00:03:16,155
Speaker 2: life later. But he did not want to follow in

84
00:03:16,195 --> 00:03:19,555
Speaker 2: his father's footsteps. But you did. Well, your dad was

85
00:03:19,615 --> 00:03:22,755
Speaker 2: a great model. He was a great example. And we

86
00:03:22,795 --> 00:03:26,035
Speaker 2: miss him, but not as much as you do, I'm sure.

87
00:03:26,455 --> 00:03:28,975
Speaker 2: So kind of phase two of all of this, you

88
00:03:29,095 --> 00:03:32,395
Speaker 2: came with Pastor Skip Heitzik from New Mexico to California

89
00:03:32,415 --> 00:03:33,615
Speaker 2: when he took a church over.

90
00:03:33,895 --> 00:03:36,895
Speaker 1: He had asked me to kind of step in for him,

91
00:03:37,095 --> 00:03:39,455
Speaker 1: preach when he was traveling. And I was, you know,

92
00:03:39,815 --> 00:03:42,195
Speaker 1: having grown up in youth ministry, going to be preaching

93
00:03:42,235 --> 00:03:44,215
Speaker 1: in the church for the first time, which big church

94
00:03:44,275 --> 00:03:45,615
Speaker 1: is what we called it, you know, like, oh, wow.

95
00:03:46,025 --> 00:03:48,635
Speaker 1: get called up from the minor leagues to the major leagues.

96
00:03:48,735 --> 00:03:50,315
Speaker 1: Although now it's like, I kind of look at it

97
00:03:50,335 --> 00:03:52,055
Speaker 1: the other way. It's like, I think youth ministry might

98
00:03:52,095 --> 00:03:53,155
Speaker 1: be the major leagues, right?

99
00:03:53,455 --> 00:03:53,655
Speaker 2: Yeah.

100
00:03:53,695 --> 00:03:54,615
Speaker 1: Reaching kids young.

101
00:03:54,715 --> 00:03:56,255
Speaker 2: I kind of feel like if you can make it

102
00:03:56,315 --> 00:03:59,035
Speaker 2: in youth ministry, you clearly have a gifting. And I've

103
00:03:59,075 --> 00:04:01,365
Speaker 2: also found that some of the best preachers I know

104
00:04:01,465 --> 00:04:04,365
Speaker 2: were once youth pastors. Because if you can hold the

105
00:04:04,425 --> 00:04:07,675
Speaker 2: attention of young people, That's a gift, don't you think? 100%.

106
00:04:07,675 --> 00:04:10,355
Speaker 1: Their attention span. Not only from the fact that a

107
00:04:10,395 --> 00:04:12,375
Speaker 1: middle schooler is not going to give you much. If

108
00:04:12,395 --> 00:04:13,735
Speaker 1: they're not tracking with you, they're just going to go

109
00:04:13,775 --> 00:04:17,424
Speaker 1: to sleep. And back in the day, we used to

110
00:04:17,445 --> 00:04:20,045
Speaker 1: do our youth ministry program on Sunday morning. So you're

111
00:04:20,075 --> 00:04:22,525
Speaker 1: running an 8 o'clock service for a 6th grader who

112
00:04:22,685 --> 00:04:25,625
Speaker 1: does not want to be there. So they were literally just,

113
00:04:25,765 --> 00:04:28,025
Speaker 1: unless you're going to get them and get them out

114
00:04:28,065 --> 00:04:29,925
Speaker 1: the gate, you're going to lose them. So yeah, I

115
00:04:29,965 --> 00:04:31,965
Speaker 1: think there's something to that. Plus, I also think the

116
00:04:32,025 --> 00:04:36,135
Speaker 1: youth ministry is the most well-rounded area that's most like

117
00:04:36,215 --> 00:04:39,455
Speaker 1: pastoring a church. You have to figure out budgets, events,

118
00:04:39,695 --> 00:04:41,985
Speaker 1: while simultaneously doing the sermon stuff, you have to do

119
00:04:42,025 --> 00:04:44,465
Speaker 1: leadership development. So it's kind of a little mini church

120
00:04:44,505 --> 00:04:44,865
Speaker 1: in a way.

121
00:04:44,985 --> 00:04:47,665
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. And I remember when you felt

122
00:04:47,725 --> 00:04:51,905
Speaker 2: called to go to Montana, and I actually offered you

123
00:04:51,945 --> 00:04:53,925
Speaker 2: a job. I said, Levi, would you like to come

124
00:04:53,985 --> 00:04:56,715
Speaker 2: be the youth pastor at Harvest? But you had this

125
00:04:56,775 --> 00:05:00,175
Speaker 2: strong calling to Montana. And somewhere in that time period,

126
00:05:00,615 --> 00:05:02,675
Speaker 2: I remember you told me a story of how you

127
00:05:02,795 --> 00:05:05,335
Speaker 2: used to listen, going back to cassette tapes for a moment,

128
00:05:05,835 --> 00:05:09,284
Speaker 2: to this message that I gave years ago before you

129
00:05:09,295 --> 00:05:11,405
Speaker 2: would go to bed. In fact, you listened to the

130
00:05:11,445 --> 00:05:14,344
Speaker 2: same message over and over again, and that was about David.

131
00:05:15,345 --> 00:05:17,565
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one day when I was a little kid,

132
00:05:17,605 --> 00:05:19,964
Speaker 1: my dad, he'd work all day. He worked at Fox

133
00:05:20,005 --> 00:05:22,065
Speaker 1: at the time. Then he would prep his sermons in

134
00:05:22,085 --> 00:05:24,395
Speaker 1: the evenings. Yeah. And I came into his study, and

135
00:05:24,435 --> 00:05:26,495
Speaker 1: there was this voice coming out of the stereo, and

136
00:05:26,515 --> 00:05:29,695
Speaker 1: it was the pastor of Calvary Chapel Riverside. Of course,

137
00:05:29,815 --> 00:05:31,855
Speaker 1: we know of it today as Harvest. But I was

138
00:05:31,935 --> 00:05:34,895
Speaker 1: mesmerized just sitting there listening. You have always had a

139
00:05:34,895 --> 00:05:36,855
Speaker 1: way of telling narrative stories from the Bible that I

140
00:05:36,895 --> 00:05:39,575
Speaker 1: think brings them to life in such an unusual way.

141
00:05:39,595 --> 00:05:42,535
Speaker 1: I mean, you kids always are wanting to gather around,

142
00:05:42,575 --> 00:05:44,995
Speaker 1: listen to you tell stories. If we're sitting at a restaurant,

143
00:05:45,035 --> 00:05:47,135
Speaker 1: you gather all your grandkids and my kids, and you're

144
00:05:47,155 --> 00:05:49,195
Speaker 1: telling these stories. And I feel like that comes through

145
00:05:49,215 --> 00:05:51,355
Speaker 1: in the pulpit in the way that no doubt Jesus

146
00:05:51,415 --> 00:05:55,255
Speaker 1: did because kids would come to Jesus. So you're teaching David.

147
00:05:55,365 --> 00:05:57,425
Speaker 1: I had never heard David like this. It was funny.

148
00:05:57,545 --> 00:05:59,745
Speaker 1: It was all the backstory in his life. And I

149
00:06:00,145 --> 00:06:01,905
Speaker 1: was so into it that later that night, I asked

150
00:06:01,925 --> 00:06:03,585
Speaker 1: my dad if I could play the cassette as a

151
00:06:03,625 --> 00:06:06,065
Speaker 1: bedtime story. So we brought it to my room. The

152
00:06:06,085 --> 00:06:07,964
Speaker 1: sermon was titled, David is calling part two.

153
00:06:08,985 --> 00:06:09,745
Speaker 2: Very imaginative.

154
00:06:09,805 --> 00:06:10,165
Speaker 1: I don't know.

155
00:06:10,765 --> 00:06:12,665
Speaker 2: Let's see. What do I call this? Part two.

156
00:06:12,785 --> 00:06:17,195
Speaker 1: David. Comma, his calling, part two. I listen to it

157
00:06:17,295 --> 00:06:19,565
Speaker 1: probably every night to go to sleep for months. And

158
00:06:19,585 --> 00:06:22,145
Speaker 1: I still have the tape still to this day. So

159
00:06:22,165 --> 00:06:24,085
Speaker 1: I've been listening to you preach for so long. You've

160
00:06:24,105 --> 00:06:27,745
Speaker 1: always loomed large in my Mount Rushmore of preaching. And

161
00:06:28,035 --> 00:06:31,115
Speaker 1: so when I was in that situation where on paper,

162
00:06:31,155 --> 00:06:35,235
Speaker 1: everything seemed like perfect opportunity. Take this church, preach at it.

163
00:06:35,615 --> 00:06:38,255
Speaker 1: We lived right next to the beach in Dana Point.

164
00:06:38,295 --> 00:06:41,015
Speaker 1: We had season passes to Disneyland. On paper, it seemed

165
00:06:41,035 --> 00:06:44,165
Speaker 1: like a career calling move that was great, but we

166
00:06:44,225 --> 00:06:48,065
Speaker 1: also felt this nagging sense of we always were dreamt

167
00:06:48,105 --> 00:06:50,125
Speaker 1: of planting our own tree. At the same time, I

168
00:06:50,825 --> 00:06:52,885
Speaker 1: had gotten in touch with you and asked for you

169
00:06:52,925 --> 00:06:55,885
Speaker 1: to give me some advice. You listened to me. You

170
00:06:55,925 --> 00:06:59,165
Speaker 1: were so great. We sat down and talked. Jonathan had

171
00:06:59,205 --> 00:07:01,465
Speaker 1: been coming to our youth group as well, so there

172
00:07:01,485 --> 00:07:05,375
Speaker 1: was that connection. I got just time with you, which

173
00:07:05,465 --> 00:07:08,685
Speaker 1: was a great honor. And you at the same time

174
00:07:08,705 --> 00:07:10,765
Speaker 1: were like, well, hey, come on staff for me. Your

175
00:07:10,785 --> 00:07:13,205
Speaker 1: exact words were, do for me what I did for

176
00:07:13,245 --> 00:07:16,505
Speaker 1: Pastor Chuck. Start up a new service, reach young people.

177
00:07:16,845 --> 00:07:20,145
Speaker 1: And that was a massive opportunity. But the Lord just

178
00:07:20,445 --> 00:07:22,405
Speaker 1: really put it in my heart that we needed to

179
00:07:22,445 --> 00:07:25,035
Speaker 1: go to this church. And you were so gracious because

180
00:07:25,045 --> 00:07:27,175
Speaker 1: I remember telling you no and feeling like, oh, that's

181
00:07:27,195 --> 00:07:28,675
Speaker 1: the last time I'm ever going to hear from this guy.

182
00:07:29,015 --> 00:07:30,515
Speaker 1: And you were so gracious. You were like, hey, you

183
00:07:30,535 --> 00:07:32,875
Speaker 1: know what? I think the church plant will be amazing.

184
00:07:32,955 --> 00:07:35,375
Speaker 1: And you spoke faith and life over it. And then

185
00:07:35,895 --> 00:07:37,855
Speaker 1: literally a couple weeks later, you asked me to come

186
00:07:37,915 --> 00:07:40,655
Speaker 1: and host a crusade for you. And you've been so

187
00:07:40,735 --> 00:07:42,535
Speaker 1: great to bring me in to preach for you. And

188
00:07:42,935 --> 00:07:43,695
Speaker 1: it's just meant the world.

189
00:07:43,955 --> 00:07:45,955
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and you were a great friend to

190
00:07:45,975 --> 00:07:49,675
Speaker 2: my son, Christopher. And, you know, coming back to preachers, kids,

191
00:07:49,695 --> 00:07:52,225
Speaker 2: they're not all like you wanting to be preachers one day.

192
00:07:52,285 --> 00:07:55,465
Speaker 2: Sometimes they go through rebellion. Both my sons went through

193
00:07:55,505 --> 00:07:59,685
Speaker 2: a prodigal phase. And Christopher, you know, you know, drifted away. He,

194
00:07:59,885 --> 00:08:03,105
Speaker 2: you know, he always believed he, he never was, he

195
00:08:03,125 --> 00:08:05,615
Speaker 2: was always respectful to Kathy and I. It was a

196
00:08:05,695 --> 00:08:07,955
Speaker 2: great son, but, but, you know, he was just sort

197
00:08:07,995 --> 00:08:11,555
Speaker 2: of drifting spiritually, but he started coming to your church

198
00:08:12,255 --> 00:08:15,675
Speaker 2: and really connecting. And I really appreciated the interest you

199
00:08:15,715 --> 00:08:19,215
Speaker 2: took in his life. And of course, when Christopher went

200
00:08:19,335 --> 00:08:22,735
Speaker 2: to be with the Lord in 2008, it was so

201
00:08:22,815 --> 00:08:26,785
Speaker 2: devastating for us. And you were such a, a great

202
00:08:26,815 --> 00:08:29,105
Speaker 2: help at that time, you know, because you stepped in

203
00:08:29,145 --> 00:08:34,285
Speaker 2: into Jonathan's life. Cause Jonathan was so influenced by his

204
00:08:34,385 --> 00:08:36,405
Speaker 2: older brother, you know, cause Christopher was quite a bit

205
00:08:36,564 --> 00:08:39,965
Speaker 2: older than Jonathan. And he was almost like another parent

206
00:08:40,045 --> 00:08:42,715
Speaker 2: in a way. And, you know, cause Jonathan was just

207
00:08:42,745 --> 00:08:44,735
Speaker 2: a little kid. I was always amazed at how the

208
00:08:44,815 --> 00:08:47,545
Speaker 2: two of them could get in an argument and You know,

209
00:08:47,565 --> 00:08:50,565
Speaker 2: one time I saw them arguing. Jonathan's like two. Christopher's

210
00:08:50,625 --> 00:08:54,594
Speaker 2: like 14. I said, why are you arguing with a two-year-old?

211
00:08:54,795 --> 00:08:57,135
Speaker 2: Who even cares what he says? But Christopher managed to

212
00:08:57,175 --> 00:08:57,375
Speaker 2: do that.

213
00:08:57,395 --> 00:09:00,075
Speaker 1: So how old would he have been when Jonathan was two?

214
00:09:01,175 --> 00:09:03,355
Speaker 2: I said 14. I think he's 10 years older.

215
00:09:03,375 --> 00:09:04,915
Speaker 1: So that's a lot like Olivia in Lenox.

216
00:09:04,975 --> 00:09:05,255
Speaker 2: Yeah.

217
00:09:05,375 --> 00:09:07,035
Speaker 1: But it is funny. They can still bicker. You know

218
00:09:07,155 --> 00:09:09,795
Speaker 1: what I mean? She's 19. He's seven. It's like kids

219
00:09:09,935 --> 00:09:11,595
Speaker 1: are kids. It's just a sibling thing.

220
00:09:11,855 --> 00:09:15,235
Speaker 2: It is. But you were so helpful to Christopher and

221
00:09:15,275 --> 00:09:19,515
Speaker 2: then to Jonathan. In fact, he went to Montana and

222
00:09:19,575 --> 00:09:22,435
Speaker 2: worked with you for a period of time, and he

223
00:09:22,475 --> 00:09:24,735
Speaker 2: was really feeling a call of God in his life. So,

224
00:09:25,095 --> 00:09:27,975
Speaker 2: you know, we have a long family connection. It's crazy.

225
00:09:28,135 --> 00:09:32,295
Speaker 1: And walking with you guys through Christopher's going to heaven,

226
00:09:32,475 --> 00:09:37,015
Speaker 1: which was so devastating, and yet watching you and Kathy

227
00:09:37,115 --> 00:09:41,165
Speaker 1: and Jonathan struggle through all of that, finding your way.

228
00:09:41,245 --> 00:09:43,765
Speaker 1: You guys had been in Montana before with Christopher.

229
00:09:43,785 --> 00:09:46,145
Speaker 2: Yes. The 4th of July, I remember.

230
00:09:46,205 --> 00:09:48,965
Speaker 1: I was so proud of Christopher for all of his

231
00:09:49,025 --> 00:09:52,685
Speaker 1: difficulties and struggles. When he went to be with Jesus,

232
00:09:52,725 --> 00:09:55,645
Speaker 1: he was at such a high watermark of his faith,

233
00:09:55,835 --> 00:09:59,335
Speaker 1: leading his family, of loving it. My last meaningful interaction

234
00:09:59,355 --> 00:10:01,155
Speaker 1: with him was a breakfast where he was just telling

235
00:10:01,195 --> 00:10:05,815
Speaker 1: me how much he had felt bad for... not being

236
00:10:05,855 --> 00:10:08,434
Speaker 1: the same example to Jonathan he wanted to be and

237
00:10:08,475 --> 00:10:11,565
Speaker 1: I was just encouraging him like even in that regret,

238
00:10:11,685 --> 00:10:14,285
Speaker 1: there's an example. So to be open, be bold, you know,

239
00:10:14,315 --> 00:10:16,155
Speaker 1: because he was saying, I feel like I've lost moral authority.

240
00:10:16,195 --> 00:10:19,095
Speaker 1: I'm like, you can't in your mistakes talk about that.

241
00:10:19,115 --> 00:10:23,615
Speaker 1: And so I was just so encouraged by his finding

242
00:10:23,635 --> 00:10:27,515
Speaker 1: his footing and you guys blazing a trail through the

243
00:10:27,555 --> 00:10:29,334
Speaker 1: loss of a child. I mean, we got the front

244
00:10:29,355 --> 00:10:30,795
Speaker 1: row seat to that, sitting on the beach with you

245
00:10:30,815 --> 00:10:33,584
Speaker 1: guys while you were ugly crying, like the depths of sorrow.

246
00:10:34,135 --> 00:10:35,925
Speaker 1: But then seeing you still grab on to God and

247
00:10:35,945 --> 00:10:38,245
Speaker 1: you guys came to Montana for some of that healing. Yes.

248
00:10:38,545 --> 00:10:41,745
Speaker 1: And of course, all of that Not knowing that we

249
00:10:41,765 --> 00:10:44,105
Speaker 1: were about to follow in your example and not knowing

250
00:10:44,145 --> 00:10:46,075
Speaker 1: we were about to lose a child. And, you know,

251
00:10:46,095 --> 00:10:48,355
Speaker 1: you preached Linda's funeral. And so it's like it's almost

252
00:10:48,735 --> 00:10:51,675
Speaker 1: just poetically weird and beautiful that we got to walk

253
00:10:51,715 --> 00:10:53,475
Speaker 1: with you through grief. And then you guys got to

254
00:10:53,515 --> 00:10:54,915
Speaker 1: return the favor in that same way.

255
00:10:55,075 --> 00:10:59,025
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I remember so clearly when you called because

256
00:10:59,085 --> 00:11:01,925
Speaker 2: we were our whole family was there at our house.

257
00:11:01,965 --> 00:11:04,745
Speaker 2: We were having a great time. And I got this

258
00:11:04,805 --> 00:11:06,595
Speaker 2: call from you. I believe the first call.

259
00:11:06,605 --> 00:11:07,375
Speaker 1: I was in the ambulance.

260
00:11:07,575 --> 00:11:10,194
Speaker 2: Yeah, you were saying, pray, pray. You know, it's an

261
00:11:10,255 --> 00:11:13,855
Speaker 2: emergency with little Lenya. And so we prayed. And then

262
00:11:13,875 --> 00:11:15,915
Speaker 2: you called us not long after that and told us

263
00:11:15,955 --> 00:11:18,314
Speaker 2: that she was with the Lord. And it was so

264
00:11:18,375 --> 00:11:21,435
Speaker 2: hard to believe because we had walked through that together.

265
00:11:21,455 --> 00:11:24,934
Speaker 2: And now it's happening to you. You know, that was

266
00:11:24,975 --> 00:11:29,285
Speaker 2: such a devastating time in your life. But you have

267
00:11:29,305 --> 00:11:32,465
Speaker 2: gone through that with such strength. And a lot has

268
00:11:32,525 --> 00:11:35,615
Speaker 2: come out of that. We wouldn't wish this on anybody,

269
00:11:35,855 --> 00:11:38,675
Speaker 2: what has happened to us. We joined this exclusive club

270
00:11:39,155 --> 00:11:41,085
Speaker 2: we never wanted to be a member of. I mean,

271
00:11:41,125 --> 00:11:44,545
Speaker 2: you stop and think. If you lose your husband, you're

272
00:11:44,565 --> 00:11:47,625
Speaker 2: a widow. If you lose your wife, you're a widower.

273
00:11:47,845 --> 00:11:50,885
Speaker 2: If you lose your parents, you're an orphan. But if

274
00:11:50,925 --> 00:11:53,715
Speaker 2: you lose your child, what are you? There's not a

275
00:11:53,735 --> 00:11:57,115
Speaker 2: word for it. I guess devastated. But so we have

276
00:11:57,155 --> 00:11:59,415
Speaker 2: a choice at a time like that to become better

277
00:11:59,535 --> 00:12:01,795
Speaker 2: or bitter. You can just become mad at God, angry

278
00:12:01,855 --> 00:12:05,694
Speaker 2: at God, But you chose to become better and to

279
00:12:05,775 --> 00:12:09,054
Speaker 2: help others, and you've not wasted your pain. And you've

280
00:12:09,095 --> 00:12:13,305
Speaker 2: written about this quite extensively in your book about little Lenya.

281
00:12:13,345 --> 00:12:16,085
Speaker 2: Tell us about that book and how that's impacted people.

282
00:12:16,485 --> 00:12:20,985
Speaker 1: Thank you. Yeah, Lenya had an asthma attack, as you know.

283
00:12:21,005 --> 00:12:21,075
Speaker 2: Yes.

284
00:12:22,665 --> 00:12:26,005
Speaker 1: It was five. It was five days before Christmas in 2012.

285
00:12:26,005 --> 00:12:28,255
Speaker 1: And that night, we had the chance to give her

286
00:12:28,295 --> 00:12:30,875
Speaker 1: corneas to two people. So each of them got one

287
00:12:30,895 --> 00:12:33,015
Speaker 1: of her corneas. They also took her heart valves. I mean,

288
00:12:33,035 --> 00:12:35,175
Speaker 1: that's a hard thing. We got home. The hospital called.

289
00:12:35,215 --> 00:12:38,335
Speaker 1: And immediately, we were thinking, did she wake up? You know,

290
00:12:38,375 --> 00:12:43,685
Speaker 1: like that was our first thought. Because you're clutching at anything. Denials, real. Shocks, real.

291
00:12:44,005 --> 00:12:45,705
Speaker 1: But they were like, no, no. We want to take

292
00:12:45,745 --> 00:12:47,704
Speaker 1: her heart valves and take her corneas and take these

293
00:12:48,045 --> 00:12:52,295
Speaker 1: organs for transplanting. As much as you don't want the

294
00:12:52,335 --> 00:12:54,915
Speaker 1: visual of them cutting into your child, it also was like,

295
00:12:55,555 --> 00:12:57,515
Speaker 1: she would want us to do this. And so we

296
00:12:57,555 --> 00:13:01,054
Speaker 1: said yes. And later on, these two people get her corneas,

297
00:13:01,095 --> 00:13:02,515
Speaker 1: and they told us they had been blind, but they

298
00:13:02,535 --> 00:13:04,905
Speaker 1: could see. And that's such a beautiful picture of the gospel,

299
00:13:04,945 --> 00:13:05,285
Speaker 1: of course.

300
00:13:05,305 --> 00:13:05,765
Speaker 2: It is.

301
00:13:05,905 --> 00:13:08,225
Speaker 1: And linea means lion. And so it just hit me.

302
00:13:08,365 --> 00:13:10,684
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, they see through the eyes of

303
00:13:10,745 --> 00:13:12,465
Speaker 1: a lion. And I kind of got this metaphor.

304
00:13:12,485 --> 00:13:12,725
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

305
00:13:13,895 --> 00:13:17,115
Speaker 1: Them seeing through her eyes and us seeing through Jesus' eyes.

306
00:13:17,535 --> 00:13:19,995
Speaker 2: And the lion. Was that a nickname for her?

307
00:13:20,015 --> 00:13:21,135
Speaker 1: Well, because Linya means lion.

308
00:13:21,335 --> 00:13:22,054
Speaker 2: Oh, wow. Okay.

309
00:13:22,175 --> 00:13:24,755
Speaker 1: It's a Russian word. And then we called her Linya Lion.

310
00:13:24,795 --> 00:13:28,255
Speaker 1: That was her nickname. And she was the most ferocious,

311
00:13:28,305 --> 00:13:31,505
Speaker 1: you know, hair always messy, always in trouble, naughtiest of

312
00:13:31,545 --> 00:13:32,545
Speaker 1: our children for sure.

313
00:13:32,565 --> 00:13:34,265
Speaker 2: She had the cutest little voice too.

314
00:13:34,405 --> 00:13:35,325
Speaker 1: Like raspy.

315
00:13:35,365 --> 00:13:35,665
Speaker 2: Yeah.

316
00:13:35,885 --> 00:13:38,165
Speaker 1: Yeah. Kind of smoky. Like she had just had half

317
00:13:38,185 --> 00:13:41,325
Speaker 1: a pack of cigarettes. I think she would have been

318
00:13:41,345 --> 00:13:41,885
Speaker 1: a good singer.

319
00:13:42,025 --> 00:13:42,285
Speaker 2: Yeah.

320
00:13:42,655 --> 00:13:46,005
Speaker 1: That kind of tends to be the voice profile. So anyhow,

321
00:13:46,405 --> 00:13:47,765
Speaker 1: I was in my office. It was the first year.

322
00:13:47,805 --> 00:13:49,725
Speaker 1: I mean, the first year is so crazy because it's

323
00:13:50,225 --> 00:13:52,785
Speaker 1: every Father's Day, Mother's Day, June 4th, July.

324
00:13:52,885 --> 00:13:55,485
Speaker 2: Well, that's what's close to Christmas. Yeah. That must have

325
00:13:55,505 --> 00:13:57,135
Speaker 2: been the worst Christmas ever.

326
00:13:57,315 --> 00:14:00,475
Speaker 1: Weirdly, I was so on edge for it. You know

327
00:14:00,515 --> 00:14:03,195
Speaker 1: how you kind of like raise the defenses before Mother's Day,

328
00:14:03,235 --> 00:14:06,895
Speaker 1: your birthday? And that first year is like sweeping a minefield.

329
00:14:07,455 --> 00:14:09,304
Speaker 1: And then after that, I remember taking a breath. I

330
00:14:09,305 --> 00:14:11,265
Speaker 1: don't know if it was your experience, but after the

331
00:14:11,305 --> 00:14:13,745
Speaker 1: first year, I was like, okay. I can do that again.

332
00:14:13,805 --> 00:14:15,965
Speaker 1: It was like almost a sense of like a weight

333
00:14:16,065 --> 00:14:19,185
Speaker 1: shifting off my shoulders and grief. Was that your experience

334
00:14:19,325 --> 00:14:20,005
Speaker 1: at the year mark?

335
00:14:20,605 --> 00:14:22,195
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was at the year mark.

336
00:14:22,575 --> 00:14:25,575
Speaker 2: I mean, I do remember distinctly that I felt as

337
00:14:25,615 --> 00:14:27,955
Speaker 2: though a weight was on my chest. I mean, a

338
00:14:28,075 --> 00:14:31,275
Speaker 2: physical weight. Yeah. That seemed to be there for quite

339
00:14:31,395 --> 00:14:35,305
Speaker 2: a time. And then it just began to lift, you know,

340
00:14:35,365 --> 00:14:38,865
Speaker 2: because it's weird in the early stages of grief. You know,

341
00:14:38,905 --> 00:14:41,555
Speaker 2: you wonder, will I ever be happy again? And then

342
00:14:41,575 --> 00:14:44,875
Speaker 2: when you begin to experience happiness, you almost feel bad

343
00:14:44,935 --> 00:14:47,795
Speaker 2: for being good, for feeling good. Like, oh, I shouldn't

344
00:14:47,835 --> 00:14:50,815
Speaker 2: be happy right now. But if we stop and think

345
00:14:50,855 --> 00:14:54,535
Speaker 2: about Lenya or Christopher in heaven, or let's just change

346
00:14:54,555 --> 00:14:57,425
Speaker 2: the position. Let's just say that you or I were

347
00:14:57,465 --> 00:14:59,705
Speaker 2: in heaven and our children are down there. Would we

348
00:14:59,725 --> 00:15:03,305
Speaker 2: want them to live in sadness for the rest of

349
00:15:03,345 --> 00:15:05,705
Speaker 2: their life? And we'd want them to grieve us. I mean,

350
00:15:05,745 --> 00:15:08,105
Speaker 2: we want to be remembered. But at the same time,

351
00:15:08,565 --> 00:15:11,285
Speaker 2: We would say live your life, put God first, discover

352
00:15:11,305 --> 00:15:15,045
Speaker 2: his plan for you. We'll be reunited one day, you know,

353
00:15:15,065 --> 00:15:19,875
Speaker 2: be happy. But it's hard to be happy when you're

354
00:15:19,895 --> 00:15:21,535
Speaker 2: so sad, isn't it? It's so true.

355
00:15:21,615 --> 00:15:25,035
Speaker 1: And you know what's weird is to derail, and I'll

356
00:15:25,075 --> 00:15:26,955
Speaker 1: come back to what I was saying, but with my

357
00:15:26,995 --> 00:15:30,175
Speaker 1: dad's death this last year, we're not at the year

358
00:15:30,195 --> 00:15:32,985
Speaker 1: mark yet. The grief has been so different.

359
00:15:33,385 --> 00:15:34,335
Speaker 2: Tell me how it's different.

360
00:15:34,635 --> 00:15:38,275
Speaker 1: I naively, when dad died, I thought to myself, as

361
00:15:38,315 --> 00:15:41,255
Speaker 1: my brothers and sisters were all falling apart, okay, this

362
00:15:41,315 --> 00:15:44,795
Speaker 1: is their first major meaningful interaction with grief in a

363
00:15:44,895 --> 00:15:49,535
Speaker 1: real serious way. And I thought to myself, I'm a vet.

364
00:15:49,775 --> 00:15:53,465
Speaker 1: I've lost a child. Losing dad is going to be sad,

365
00:15:53,485 --> 00:15:56,705
Speaker 1: but I'm going to feel somewhat like, and man. I

366
00:15:56,725 --> 00:15:58,785
Speaker 1: called you on a really low moment. I remember calling

367
00:15:58,825 --> 00:16:00,425
Speaker 1: you like a month in, just being like, I am

368
00:16:00,525 --> 00:16:03,445
Speaker 1: struggling here and the grief is different. And I was like,

369
00:16:03,465 --> 00:16:07,005
Speaker 1: and it hit me. You can't have a grief punch

370
00:16:07,045 --> 00:16:09,505
Speaker 1: card and feel like I'm entitled to my third grief

371
00:16:09,545 --> 00:16:11,365
Speaker 1: free because I got, you know what I mean? Like

372
00:16:11,765 --> 00:16:14,825
Speaker 1: it's a different person. It's a different grief. Linya was

373
00:16:14,865 --> 00:16:17,665
Speaker 1: my daughter, but my dad was, you know, for 42

374
00:16:17,665 --> 00:16:19,435
Speaker 1: years of my life, I always had a dad. I

375
00:16:19,475 --> 00:16:21,055
Speaker 1: had him every day to text, had him every day

376
00:16:21,095 --> 00:16:23,235
Speaker 1: to call. He showed up at everything. He was a

377
00:16:23,295 --> 00:16:26,065
Speaker 1: very great dad. And, I knew he was dying from

378
00:16:26,085 --> 00:16:28,865
Speaker 1: the pancreatic cancer, but the Mayo Clinic told us we

379
00:16:28,905 --> 00:16:31,905
Speaker 1: had a year or two more. So when he did die,

380
00:16:32,005 --> 00:16:33,385
Speaker 1: and I never got to say goodbye because he turned

381
00:16:33,425 --> 00:16:38,065
Speaker 1: so quickly, and it just caught me off guard. I

382
00:16:38,105 --> 00:16:41,875
Speaker 1: think the difference of the grief was partially I expected

383
00:16:41,915 --> 00:16:44,295
Speaker 1: it to be less severe, and it was really challenging.

384
00:16:44,395 --> 00:16:47,615
Speaker 1: It has been really challenging. I've multiple times called him,

385
00:16:48,155 --> 00:16:50,755
Speaker 1: and then I remember he was in heaven.

386
00:16:50,915 --> 00:16:51,415
Speaker 2: Oh, really?

387
00:16:51,495 --> 00:16:53,915
Speaker 1: Yeah, like actually got to the phone call. Or we'd

388
00:16:53,935 --> 00:16:55,645
Speaker 1: go to text him and be like, oh, my God.

389
00:16:55,735 --> 00:16:57,025
Speaker 1: Because we didn't talk every day.

390
00:16:57,045 --> 00:16:57,305
Speaker 2: Yeah.

391
00:16:57,565 --> 00:16:59,125
Speaker 1: So, I mean, so we talked every day, but I

392
00:16:59,125 --> 00:16:59,945
Speaker 1: didn't see him every day.

393
00:16:59,965 --> 00:17:00,265
Speaker 2: Right.

394
00:17:00,345 --> 00:17:02,585
Speaker 1: So I would just go to, like, oh, it's been

395
00:17:02,605 --> 00:17:03,725
Speaker 1: a couple days. I need to give dad a call

396
00:17:03,745 --> 00:17:05,365
Speaker 1: and be like, oh, wait. And then I would hit

397
00:17:05,385 --> 00:17:05,845
Speaker 1: me again.

398
00:17:05,865 --> 00:17:06,185
Speaker 2: Yeah.

399
00:17:06,504 --> 00:17:09,855
Speaker 1: But all that to say, with Lenya, when she got

400
00:17:09,865 --> 00:17:14,135
Speaker 1: to give those people her eye tissues, we had the revelation,

401
00:17:14,475 --> 00:17:18,394
Speaker 1: I think, that Ephesians talks about, which is that the

402
00:17:18,594 --> 00:17:21,634
Speaker 1: eyes of your understanding would be enlightened. Paul prayed for

403
00:17:21,655 --> 00:17:22,395
Speaker 1: the church to have this.

404
00:17:22,965 --> 00:17:23,305
Speaker 2: And so.

405
00:17:23,895 --> 00:17:27,315
Speaker 1: we started to see connections between the pain we were

406
00:17:27,354 --> 00:17:30,015
Speaker 1: facing and what God wants to do inside of our eyes.

407
00:17:30,074 --> 00:17:33,634
Speaker 1: And the metaphor of things that are, you know, the

408
00:17:33,675 --> 00:17:35,715
Speaker 1: song puts it this way, that made the things of

409
00:17:35,764 --> 00:17:39,374
Speaker 1: this world grow strangely dim and almost this farsightedness, nearsightedness.

410
00:17:39,395 --> 00:17:41,344
Speaker 1: So I did all this research on lions and figured

411
00:17:41,405 --> 00:17:43,645
Speaker 1: out how their eyes work and kind of wrote this

412
00:17:43,705 --> 00:17:46,824
Speaker 1: book comparing our eyes to Jesus's eyes and use her

413
00:17:46,885 --> 00:17:48,725
Speaker 1: eyes as a metaphor. And what was surprising to me

414
00:17:48,804 --> 00:17:50,725
Speaker 1: when the book went out and now it's out, we've

415
00:17:50,764 --> 00:17:52,905
Speaker 1: sold a lot of copies in a, I think a

416
00:17:52,945 --> 00:17:55,554
Speaker 1: dozen languages it's out now. We have a children's version

417
00:17:55,594 --> 00:17:57,234
Speaker 1: of it that's done very well, won a bunch of awards.

418
00:17:57,395 --> 00:18:00,175
Speaker 1: But I would get letters back from people who weren't

419
00:18:00,215 --> 00:18:02,154
Speaker 1: dealing with the pain of a loss of a child.

420
00:18:02,615 --> 00:18:05,175
Speaker 1: They would be dealing with chemo or they lost a

421
00:18:05,195 --> 00:18:07,195
Speaker 1: job or they got divorced. And then I kind of realized,

422
00:18:07,254 --> 00:18:10,415
Speaker 1: like you've said before, when you connect with people on pain,

423
00:18:10,715 --> 00:18:12,345
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be the exact pain. It can

424
00:18:12,365 --> 00:18:14,164
Speaker 1: be anything, but they get encouraged by it.

425
00:18:14,425 --> 00:18:18,885
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. It's been said that success builds walls, failure

426
00:18:18,925 --> 00:18:23,104
Speaker 2: builds bridges. And I think, and by that, The idea

427
00:18:23,165 --> 00:18:25,955
Speaker 2: is that success, oh, I've done this, I accomplished that.

428
00:18:26,554 --> 00:18:31,975
Speaker 2: People think, yeah, whatever. But failure or tragedy builds bridges.

429
00:18:32,014 --> 00:18:34,434
Speaker 2: They go, wow, he's just like me. He knows what

430
00:18:34,475 --> 00:18:37,615
Speaker 2: I'm going through. At the end of the day, we're

431
00:18:37,655 --> 00:18:41,234
Speaker 2: just human. Just because we're called to be pastors doesn't

432
00:18:41,294 --> 00:18:45,734
Speaker 2: mean we don't have all the emotions that anybody else has.

433
00:18:45,754 --> 00:18:49,935
Speaker 2: Because I realized when Christopher died, You know, being a

434
00:18:49,994 --> 00:18:52,134
Speaker 2: preacher didn't give me a leg up. At the end

435
00:18:52,175 --> 00:18:54,215
Speaker 2: of the day, I was just a father who lost

436
00:18:54,274 --> 00:18:56,574
Speaker 2: his son. I mean, I'd been the preacher at the

437
00:18:56,615 --> 00:18:59,955
Speaker 2: pulpit trying to comfort families who'd lost their children so

438
00:18:59,994 --> 00:19:03,874
Speaker 2: many times, including at your service for Little India. I

439
00:19:03,915 --> 00:19:07,445
Speaker 2: remember that day like it happened yesterday. It was like

440
00:19:07,504 --> 00:19:10,785
Speaker 2: a scene from the film because it began to snow.

441
00:19:10,804 --> 00:19:14,744
Speaker 2: It was cold. It was outdoors. It was just like

442
00:19:14,784 --> 00:19:17,945
Speaker 2: the most tragic scene from a film. But at the

443
00:19:18,004 --> 00:19:21,684
Speaker 2: same time, glorious because of the hope we have you

444
00:19:21,725 --> 00:19:24,465
Speaker 2: know but it was so vivid and so I did

445
00:19:24,524 --> 00:19:26,945
Speaker 2: my best as a pastor to try to comfort you

446
00:19:27,445 --> 00:19:30,064
Speaker 2: but one day when you wake up and and you're

447
00:19:30,205 --> 00:19:32,144
Speaker 2: you know you're in the front row and you're the

448
00:19:32,205 --> 00:19:35,184
Speaker 2: parent and you're the one who experienced the loss and

449
00:19:35,205 --> 00:19:37,645
Speaker 2: you you know these things but what you're going through

450
00:19:37,685 --> 00:19:42,624
Speaker 2: emotionally recently a friend of mine his son died unexpectedly

451
00:19:42,685 --> 00:19:45,564
Speaker 2: he was running a race he was very young and

452
00:19:45,604 --> 00:19:47,624
Speaker 2: he collapsed at the finish line I think he was

453
00:19:47,625 --> 00:19:51,514
Speaker 2: 23 years old and So I went to the hospital

454
00:19:51,574 --> 00:19:54,014
Speaker 2: immediately because one thing I know is when this happens,

455
00:19:54,034 --> 00:19:56,304
Speaker 2: you need to get to that person's car. as you can.

456
00:19:56,705 --> 00:19:58,405
Speaker 2: You don't have to be there with the right words.

457
00:19:58,425 --> 00:20:01,044
Speaker 2: You just need to be there. Sometimes it's just the

458
00:20:01,104 --> 00:20:05,675
Speaker 2: ministry of presence. In fact, often I've found less is more.

459
00:20:05,814 --> 00:20:09,455
Speaker 2: Saying less can do more. And so I walked into

460
00:20:09,494 --> 00:20:12,554
Speaker 2: this room where his son was lying on this hospital bed.

461
00:20:12,594 --> 00:20:15,705
Speaker 2: He was gone. and his son was a believer, and

462
00:20:15,744 --> 00:20:19,085
Speaker 2: the family was gathered around, and I realized that this

463
00:20:19,165 --> 00:20:21,705
Speaker 2: horrible thing that I'd gone through, which I wouldn't wish

464
00:20:21,804 --> 00:20:24,945
Speaker 2: on anybody, was actually a tool I could now use

465
00:20:25,004 --> 00:20:27,304
Speaker 2: for the glory of God, because as I began my

466
00:20:27,365 --> 00:20:30,234
Speaker 2: talk to them, I just said, hello, I'm friends with

467
00:20:30,754 --> 00:20:33,375
Speaker 2: the guy whose son had gone on, and I said,

468
00:20:33,715 --> 00:20:36,414
Speaker 2: and my name is Greg Laurie, I'm a pastor, and

469
00:20:36,475 --> 00:20:38,875
Speaker 2: I lost a son 16 years ago, and that was

470
00:20:38,935 --> 00:20:42,374
Speaker 2: my connection, and And so that's not wasting your pain.

471
00:20:42,475 --> 00:20:45,455
Speaker 2: It's like, cause I can speak to this from experience.

472
00:20:45,514 --> 00:20:48,195
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes people will listen to you more

473
00:20:48,395 --> 00:20:50,285
Speaker 2: because they go, Oh, he knows what I'm going through.

474
00:20:50,304 --> 00:20:50,675
Speaker 2: I think so.

475
00:20:50,715 --> 00:20:53,064
Speaker 1: And I think you're hungry. Like I was hungry to

476
00:20:53,165 --> 00:20:56,404
Speaker 1: ask you questions and benchmark and you know what I mean?

477
00:20:56,465 --> 00:20:59,725
Speaker 1: And even like it, it almost tells you, I can

478
00:20:59,744 --> 00:21:02,925
Speaker 1: do this. I can stay married. I can stay in ministry.

479
00:21:03,104 --> 00:21:05,074
Speaker 1: You preach through this. I can't do it. It almost

480
00:21:05,094 --> 00:21:06,854
Speaker 1: gave me a template. And I think that's why Paul

481
00:21:06,895 --> 00:21:09,585
Speaker 1: said like, follow me. Like I follow Christ. And when

482
00:21:09,615 --> 00:21:13,825
Speaker 1: we see someone who's faced any awful tragedy but has

483
00:21:13,905 --> 00:21:17,004
Speaker 1: kept on going, we can go, okay, I can see

484
00:21:17,044 --> 00:21:18,274
Speaker 1: that example and follow it.

485
00:21:18,844 --> 00:21:22,225
Speaker 2: You know, what I found is it changed me. I

486
00:21:22,294 --> 00:21:25,294
Speaker 2: hope for the better. I believe it has. But I

487
00:21:25,375 --> 00:21:29,294
Speaker 2: think before it happened, when I would hear someone just

488
00:21:29,354 --> 00:21:32,855
Speaker 2: lost a child, would you call them? I would call them,

489
00:21:33,294 --> 00:21:36,824
Speaker 2: but I would dread it, and I would be happy

490
00:21:36,865 --> 00:21:39,884
Speaker 2: when the call was over. Or, you know, there was

491
00:21:39,905 --> 00:21:43,205
Speaker 2: an apprehension about all of it because I felt so

492
00:21:43,304 --> 00:21:45,854
Speaker 2: ill-equipped to help them. But now when I hear it,

493
00:21:45,885 --> 00:21:48,374
Speaker 2: will you call them? I'll say immediately, yeah, I'll do it.

494
00:21:48,804 --> 00:21:52,055
Speaker 2: Because I know I got to walk in there where

495
00:21:52,135 --> 00:21:54,694
Speaker 2: others maybe don't want to. And because I know what

496
00:21:54,734 --> 00:21:57,614
Speaker 2: that's like. And I think that you've been able to

497
00:21:57,675 --> 00:22:00,675
Speaker 2: do this in amazing ways. What would you say has

498
00:22:00,875 --> 00:22:04,664
Speaker 2: changed in you, in you as a person? And in

499
00:22:04,725 --> 00:22:07,744
Speaker 2: you as a leader, spiritual leader, as a pastor since

500
00:22:07,804 --> 00:22:09,064
Speaker 2: when you went to be with the Lord.

501
00:22:09,564 --> 00:22:11,304
Speaker 1: Well, I think what you just said is key. I

502
00:22:11,344 --> 00:22:15,334
Speaker 1: think one of the things I've had to learn to

503
00:22:15,375 --> 00:22:19,994
Speaker 1: do is associate anytime I use something that she taught

504
00:22:20,014 --> 00:22:22,494
Speaker 1: me through that experience, or even like you mentioned a

505
00:22:22,514 --> 00:22:26,355
Speaker 1: minute ago, like when I'm happy, I've had to learn to,

506
00:22:26,475 --> 00:22:30,685
Speaker 1: by kind of reframing it, associate that happiness as being connected.

507
00:22:30,385 --> 00:22:30,825
Speaker 2: To her too.

508
00:22:30,844 --> 00:22:33,544
Speaker 1: Because I think part of the reason... We don't want

509
00:22:33,564 --> 00:22:36,205
Speaker 1: to heal. Because it's true. Some people stay stuck in

510
00:22:36,225 --> 00:22:39,225
Speaker 1: their grief and don't want to heal because they feel

511
00:22:39,264 --> 00:22:43,144
Speaker 1: like the last thing that that person ever gave them

512
00:22:43,165 --> 00:22:45,574
Speaker 1: was the grief. And so if they give up sadness,

513
00:22:45,935 --> 00:22:49,014
Speaker 1: they'll almost lose their connection to their loved one. So

514
00:22:49,615 --> 00:22:52,854
Speaker 1: you have to almost tell yourself, my healing can connect

515
00:22:52,895 --> 00:22:54,854
Speaker 1: me to her too. Not just her and my future,

516
00:22:54,875 --> 00:22:58,154
Speaker 1: but also this healing, this healed grief connects me to her.

517
00:22:58,195 --> 00:23:01,095
Speaker 1: So I can honor her by being happy. Or like

518
00:23:01,135 --> 00:23:03,504
Speaker 1: you said, to your point, when I talk to someone

519
00:23:03,544 --> 00:23:06,494
Speaker 1: or share something from that experience, because people always say like, oh,

520
00:23:06,504 --> 00:23:08,184
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for asking about Lenya or like, they don't

521
00:23:08,225 --> 00:23:09,505
Speaker 1: want to bring it up in an interview. I'm sure

522
00:23:09,524 --> 00:23:11,784
Speaker 1: it's the same thing with you. Like they almost feel bad.

523
00:23:11,965 --> 00:23:14,984
Speaker 1: And it's like, no, no, let me, I associate that

524
00:23:15,024 --> 00:23:17,994
Speaker 1: as like me as her dad, stewarding her legacy.

525
00:23:18,034 --> 00:23:19,914
Speaker 2: You don't want them to be forgotten either.

526
00:23:19,975 --> 00:23:21,135
Speaker 1: I want to, I want her to say.

527
00:23:21,494 --> 00:23:24,955
Speaker 2: Well, think how many people know Lenya's story. Not that you,

528
00:23:25,054 --> 00:23:26,734
Speaker 2: you know, you might try to have your daughter at

529
00:23:26,794 --> 00:23:30,294
Speaker 2: home to see tonight, but however, she's with the Lord,

530
00:23:30,334 --> 00:23:33,494
Speaker 2: but it's great. You can, remember her and she can

531
00:23:33,574 --> 00:23:34,475
Speaker 2: impact people.

532
00:23:34,814 --> 00:23:36,754
Speaker 1: And in a weird way, we were, we were given

533
00:23:36,794 --> 00:23:40,295
Speaker 1: the chance, like you and I both, we should die

534
00:23:40,494 --> 00:23:43,794
Speaker 1: in our, in Christopher, Jonathan and Christopher and Livy and Linnea,

535
00:23:43,854 --> 00:23:46,875
Speaker 1: they should be telling our story. Like my father, my grandfather,

536
00:23:46,895 --> 00:23:49,344
Speaker 1: that's how it should be. For whatever reason, God and

537
00:23:49,365 --> 00:23:51,264
Speaker 1: his sovereignty allowed it to be this way. We get

538
00:23:51,304 --> 00:23:53,624
Speaker 1: to steward their legacies. And so I'm not going to

539
00:23:53,645 --> 00:23:55,905
Speaker 1: miss that opportunity. And I can, I can do it

540
00:23:56,004 --> 00:23:58,685
Speaker 1: with a sad, with happiness, not just sadness in my heart.

541
00:23:59,084 --> 00:24:01,244
Speaker 1: Like I can genuinely be happy, but as a leader,

542
00:24:01,284 --> 00:24:04,774
Speaker 1: I think, There's greater empathy. I think the brokenness from

543
00:24:04,794 --> 00:24:07,574
Speaker 1: the pain has brought me down to the dust, man.

544
00:24:07,975 --> 00:24:10,304
Speaker 1: I've been in the place where, like Job says, I'm

545
00:24:10,784 --> 00:24:14,004
Speaker 1: licking the floor of Sheol. And I think that grounds

546
00:24:14,044 --> 00:24:15,624
Speaker 1: you in a different way, that humbles you in a

547
00:24:15,645 --> 00:24:18,544
Speaker 1: different way. And so I think it's changed everything about

548
00:24:18,584 --> 00:24:19,764
Speaker 1: my leadership, for sure.

549
00:24:20,044 --> 00:24:22,365
Speaker 2: What would you say to somebody maybe that just heard

550
00:24:22,405 --> 00:24:25,844
Speaker 2: the worst news imaginable and they're wondering, how am I

551
00:24:25,865 --> 00:24:28,744
Speaker 2: going to survive this? You remember what that was like

552
00:24:28,784 --> 00:24:31,084
Speaker 2: for you. What would you say to them?

553
00:24:32,165 --> 00:24:34,324
Speaker 1: One thing my counselor has helped me to see with

554
00:24:34,365 --> 00:24:37,504
Speaker 1: this new recent grief is with my dad that really

555
00:24:37,564 --> 00:24:40,784
Speaker 1: helped me was he said, make sure you differentiate the grief, okay?

556
00:24:41,425 --> 00:24:44,455
Speaker 1: So grief feels like a big bag of laundry.

557
00:24:44,675 --> 00:24:44,895
Speaker 2: Yeah.

558
00:24:45,195 --> 00:24:47,514
Speaker 1: And it feels a mountain of laundry to do. Yeah.

559
00:24:47,554 --> 00:24:49,794
Speaker 1: And that's almost overwhelming. I can't even do this laundry.

560
00:24:50,014 --> 00:24:51,314
Speaker 1: But he said, what do you do? The first thing

561
00:24:51,334 --> 00:24:53,554
Speaker 1: you do is you go whites, coloreds, darks.

562
00:24:53,594 --> 00:24:53,794
Speaker 2: Yeah.

563
00:24:53,915 --> 00:24:56,095
Speaker 1: You sort it. And then the piles get smaller. Yeah.

564
00:24:56,334 --> 00:24:59,744
Speaker 1: So he said, okay, with your dad, immediately– sort the

565
00:24:59,784 --> 00:25:02,125
Speaker 1: grief out because it feels like a monstrous pile of grief.

566
00:25:02,205 --> 00:25:07,524
Speaker 1: So instead you go, what am I not grieving? What

567
00:25:07,544 --> 00:25:08,294
Speaker 1: am I not grieving?

568
00:25:08,425 --> 00:25:08,754
Speaker 2: Okay.

569
00:25:09,135 --> 00:25:11,634
Speaker 1: I'm not grieving all the memories of my dad. I

570
00:25:11,655 --> 00:25:12,494
Speaker 1: get to keep those forever.

571
00:25:12,574 --> 00:25:12,794
Speaker 2: Okay.

572
00:25:12,814 --> 00:25:14,154
Speaker 1: Let's put those in a different pile because you're not

573
00:25:14,175 --> 00:25:17,094
Speaker 1: actually grieving those and then cherish those memories and the

574
00:25:17,155 --> 00:25:18,054
Speaker 1: lessons you learn from them.

575
00:25:18,074 --> 00:25:18,414
Speaker 2: Okay.

576
00:25:18,734 --> 00:25:21,624
Speaker 1: Second pile. What has also not been taken away is

577
00:25:21,665 --> 00:25:24,635
Speaker 1: your future with your father. Yeah. Lenya, Christopher, my dad,

578
00:25:24,675 --> 00:25:26,574
Speaker 1: they're in heaven. Okay, well, I'm not grieving that because

579
00:25:26,635 --> 00:25:29,355
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to it. Okay, well, what are you grieving? Okay,

580
00:25:29,375 --> 00:25:31,315
Speaker 1: I can't call him today. I can't have ice cream

581
00:25:31,334 --> 00:25:34,274
Speaker 1: with him or invite him to my daughter's graduation. Okay,

582
00:25:34,574 --> 00:25:37,585
Speaker 1: grieve that. But now you're grieving a much smaller pile.

583
00:25:38,115 --> 00:25:40,905
Speaker 1: So I would say to someone grieving, of course, first

584
00:25:40,945 --> 00:25:42,185
Speaker 1: of all, I would hug them and say, I'm so

585
00:25:42,225 --> 00:25:44,465
Speaker 1: sorry and ask them about that person and want to

586
00:25:44,504 --> 00:25:48,205
Speaker 1: hear all that. But that would be my advice. Differentiate

587
00:25:48,244 --> 00:25:48,584
Speaker 1: the grief.

588
00:25:48,824 --> 00:25:52,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good distinction. Well, thank God we have

589
00:25:52,725 --> 00:25:55,675
Speaker 2: hope and Thank God that our children are not just

590
00:25:55,715 --> 00:25:57,594
Speaker 2: a part of our past, they're also a part of

591
00:25:57,655 --> 00:26:00,834
Speaker 2: our future, and your father, of course. And my mother's

592
00:26:00,875 --> 00:26:02,814
Speaker 2: gone on to be with the Lord, and, you know,

593
00:26:03,655 --> 00:26:07,374
Speaker 2: when she died, you know, I felt deep grief. I

594
00:26:07,415 --> 00:26:10,304
Speaker 2: think I felt deep grief over not being the best son,

595
00:26:10,484 --> 00:26:11,864
Speaker 2: you know, like I thought I could have been a

596
00:26:11,905 --> 00:26:13,744
Speaker 2: better son to her. Of course, she could have been

597
00:26:13,764 --> 00:26:15,765
Speaker 2: a better mother to me, but, you know, we can

598
00:26:15,804 --> 00:26:18,725
Speaker 2: only do our part. And, you know, that was a

599
00:26:18,784 --> 00:26:22,405
Speaker 2: tremendous loss. It's hard to, so hard to lose people,

600
00:26:22,484 --> 00:26:25,035
Speaker 2: but They're not really lost if we know where they are.

601
00:26:26,314 --> 00:26:29,955
Speaker 1: Did it bug you? Like with my dad, I'm starting

602
00:26:29,994 --> 00:26:32,494
Speaker 1: to warm to it now. But at first when my

603
00:26:32,514 --> 00:26:36,234
Speaker 1: dad died, everybody was writing me these letters and saying, hey,

604
00:26:36,655 --> 00:26:39,154
Speaker 1: he's with Lenya now. He's with Lenya. And for whatever reason,

605
00:26:39,195 --> 00:26:42,455
Speaker 1: like in the moment, it was like, ah, it drove

606
00:26:42,475 --> 00:26:45,514
Speaker 1: me crazy. And now I'm– of course, I do believe that.

607
00:26:45,554 --> 00:26:48,715
Speaker 1: I'm excited about that. But it's funny. You have to–

608
00:26:49,024 --> 00:26:51,744
Speaker 1: on your own pace, come to these things. Does that

609
00:26:52,024 --> 00:26:53,225
Speaker 1: make sense?

610
00:26:53,225 --> 00:26:57,175
Speaker 2: 100%, yeah. Like, for instance, do we believe Romans 8.28

611
00:26:57,175 --> 00:26:59,335
Speaker 2: is true? Of course we do. Is that the best

612
00:26:59,375 --> 00:27:01,475
Speaker 2: verse to quote to someone who just lost a child?

613
00:27:01,494 --> 00:27:04,314
Speaker 2: Probably not. Maybe you save that one for a little

614
00:27:04,334 --> 00:27:06,895
Speaker 2: bit later. All things work together for good to those

615
00:27:06,935 --> 00:27:09,294
Speaker 2: who love God and are called according to His purpose.

616
00:27:09,354 --> 00:27:11,564
Speaker 2: And maybe the Lord let this happen to your son

617
00:27:11,665 --> 00:27:14,465
Speaker 2: so these people would come to the Lord as a service. Hey,

618
00:27:14,504 --> 00:27:17,875
Speaker 2: guess what? God could have saved those people at his service,

619
00:27:18,034 --> 00:27:21,244
Speaker 2: or however he chose. So I don't like to always

620
00:27:21,304 --> 00:27:24,664
Speaker 2: put a cause and effect. I think it's sometimes there's tragedy,

621
00:27:25,244 --> 00:27:27,184
Speaker 2: and I don't have to say, well, good will come

622
00:27:27,244 --> 00:27:29,965
Speaker 2: out of the tragedy. I don't think Romans 8.28 means

623
00:27:30,524 --> 00:27:32,644
Speaker 2: good always comes out of bad. I think what it

624
00:27:32,725 --> 00:27:37,295
Speaker 2: means is bad things happen, but despite that bad thing happening,

625
00:27:37,354 --> 00:27:42,175
Speaker 2: God will produce ultimate good in your life. But there

626
00:27:42,215 --> 00:27:44,635
Speaker 2: are just things that, like, I'll always see the death

627
00:27:44,675 --> 00:27:45,994
Speaker 2: of my son as a tragedy.

628
00:27:46,014 --> 00:27:46,094
Speaker 1: Yeah.

629
00:27:46,554 --> 00:27:49,095
Speaker 2: I'll never say, well, good things have come. But actually, now,

630
00:27:49,234 --> 00:27:52,095
Speaker 2: having said that, good things have come as a result.

631
00:27:52,475 --> 00:27:55,104
Speaker 2: You know, kind of an iron entered my soul of

632
00:27:55,175 --> 00:27:57,264
Speaker 2: sorts where I was willing to do things I wasn't

633
00:27:57,304 --> 00:28:00,965
Speaker 2: willing to do before. It changed my outlook on life.

634
00:28:01,044 --> 00:28:04,424
Speaker 2: It changed my view of eternity. Made me more aware

635
00:28:04,484 --> 00:28:07,685
Speaker 2: of it. Of course, now I'm 72. I should be. But,

636
00:28:07,764 --> 00:28:09,704
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of people are just oblivious. They

637
00:28:09,725 --> 00:28:12,325
Speaker 2: don't ever think of the afterlife. And I think that's

638
00:28:12,365 --> 00:28:16,294
Speaker 2: something that should influence us constantly. But Let's shift gears

639
00:28:16,435 --> 00:28:20,214
Speaker 2: and talk about your family because you have a beautiful family.

640
00:28:20,254 --> 00:28:22,134
Speaker 2: You have a wonderful wife. When did you meet Jenny?

641
00:28:22,915 --> 00:28:25,614
Speaker 1: We met when she was in a missions internship and

642
00:28:25,635 --> 00:28:27,455
Speaker 1: I was a youth pastor at Calvary Albuquerque.

643
00:28:27,475 --> 00:28:28,225
Speaker 2: So what age were you?

644
00:28:28,625 --> 00:28:29,445
Speaker 1: We were both 19, 20.

645
00:28:29,445 --> 00:28:33,004
Speaker 2: And then you got married how much longer after that?

646
00:28:33,484 --> 00:28:34,465
Speaker 1: I was 23. She was 24. Okay.

647
00:28:34,584 --> 00:28:34,964
Speaker 2: Or 22, 23.

648
00:28:34,965 --> 00:28:39,065
Speaker 1: And then we planted the church not too long after that.

649
00:28:39,125 --> 00:28:39,365
Speaker 2: Yeah.

650
00:28:39,565 --> 00:28:40,334
Speaker 1: We were very young.

651
00:28:40,495 --> 00:28:42,405
Speaker 2: Yeah. And how many children do you have?

652
00:28:42,505 --> 00:28:46,245
Speaker 1: Five all together. Yes. Four girls and a little boy. Lennox.

653
00:28:46,365 --> 00:28:46,585
Speaker 2: Yep.

654
00:28:47,065 --> 00:28:50,364
Speaker 1: Lennox, the minority and the sorority. He's the one little dude.

655
00:28:50,584 --> 00:28:50,825
Speaker 2: Yeah.

656
00:28:50,905 --> 00:28:53,745
Speaker 1: Yeah. He's seven. The oldest is 19 at Bible College.

657
00:28:54,325 --> 00:28:56,765
Speaker 2: And they're such great kids. I mean, when we go

658
00:28:56,825 --> 00:28:59,645
Speaker 2: out together, we'll get the Lorries and the Leskos together.

659
00:28:59,665 --> 00:29:01,705
Speaker 2: And these kids have all grown up together.

660
00:29:01,745 --> 00:29:02,325
Speaker 1: Literally.

661
00:29:02,344 --> 00:29:05,465
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it's your kids and my grandkids. Yeah. And Jonathan,

662
00:29:05,505 --> 00:29:09,594
Speaker 2: of course. And- You have such a close family. You

663
00:29:09,635 --> 00:29:13,854
Speaker 2: guys have so much fun together. And Livia is growing

664
00:29:13,955 --> 00:29:16,345
Speaker 2: up to be, well, she's pretty much a young woman now.

665
00:29:16,875 --> 00:29:20,164
Speaker 2: But she's actually going to school, isn't she?

666
00:29:20,185 --> 00:29:22,705
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's going to Bible college. Yeah, she's focusing on

667
00:29:22,805 --> 00:29:25,124
Speaker 1: more of the creative marketing, that track.

668
00:29:25,745 --> 00:29:30,085
Speaker 2: That's the ultimate, I think, fruit. To not only have

669
00:29:30,125 --> 00:29:32,684
Speaker 2: your children walk with God, but effectively to want to

670
00:29:32,755 --> 00:29:35,354
Speaker 2: follow in your footsteps. You know, ministry is not a

671
00:29:35,415 --> 00:29:38,955
Speaker 2: career choice. It's a calling, but certainly it is a

672
00:29:38,995 --> 00:29:41,855
Speaker 2: great blessing when we see that our children, because some

673
00:29:41,875 --> 00:29:43,945
Speaker 2: kids want to do the very opposite. Like I want

674
00:29:44,045 --> 00:29:46,525
Speaker 2: nothing to do with ministry. i want nothing to do

675
00:29:46,565 --> 00:29:49,605
Speaker 2: with the church and it's the opposite with your children

676
00:29:49,645 --> 00:29:49,985
Speaker 2: you don't.

677
00:29:49,885 --> 00:29:51,485
Speaker 1: Want to influence it you don't want to you know

678
00:29:51,505 --> 00:29:53,684
Speaker 1: my dad never steered me or coerced me into it

679
00:29:53,705 --> 00:29:56,094
Speaker 1: i think that would have the opposite of effect probably

680
00:29:56,555 --> 00:30:00,305
Speaker 1: But Livia and Daisy both, there was a ministry night

681
00:30:00,365 --> 00:30:01,545
Speaker 1: at our youth conference.

682
00:30:01,565 --> 00:30:02,364
Speaker 2: We do movement conference.

683
00:30:02,604 --> 00:30:04,725
Speaker 1: And the speaker said, you know, come to the front

684
00:30:04,745 --> 00:30:06,545
Speaker 1: if you feel a call to ministry in some way.

685
00:30:06,705 --> 00:30:08,705
Speaker 1: And I looked up and saw Daisy and Livia at

686
00:30:08,725 --> 00:30:10,965
Speaker 1: the altar. And I was like, ah, just hot tears,

687
00:30:11,005 --> 00:30:14,325
Speaker 1: you know, weeping. And I remember making a similar kind

688
00:30:14,344 --> 00:30:16,065
Speaker 1: of response to that. And I just love that.

689
00:30:16,325 --> 00:30:16,725
Speaker 2: Who am I?

690
00:30:17,305 --> 00:30:20,124
Speaker 1: Who will I send? Who will go for us? Isaiah 6.

691
00:30:20,125 --> 00:30:22,855
Speaker 1: And to see them both. And we've just tried to just, hey,

692
00:30:23,094 --> 00:30:25,525
Speaker 1: praise God, you know, whatever it looks like. Clover is different.

693
00:30:25,565 --> 00:30:26,195
Speaker 1: Clover says.

694
00:30:26,215 --> 00:30:27,645
Speaker 2: I call her Clovey.

695
00:30:27,705 --> 00:30:28,165
Speaker 1: Clovey.

696
00:30:28,185 --> 00:30:28,785
Speaker 2: Yeah.

697
00:30:28,805 --> 00:30:30,625
Speaker 1: Clover says she wants to work at Disney.

698
00:30:30,745 --> 00:30:31,305
Speaker 2: I love that.

699
00:30:31,325 --> 00:30:33,565
Speaker 1: She wants to work at Disneyland, go to Biola. She's

700
00:30:33,584 --> 00:30:36,585
Speaker 1: got this whole thing worked out, business plan, you know.

701
00:30:36,745 --> 00:30:36,965
Speaker 2: Beautiful.

702
00:30:37,065 --> 00:30:40,055
Speaker 1: And we're like, great. She can pay the bills. Hopefully

703
00:30:40,075 --> 00:30:41,395
Speaker 1: you can tithe on what you're doing.

704
00:30:41,415 --> 00:30:42,015
Speaker 2: That's funny.

705
00:30:42,035 --> 00:30:42,695
Speaker 1: For the rest of us.

706
00:30:42,815 --> 00:30:44,834
Speaker 2: Well, you know, as John wrote, I have no greater

707
00:30:44,935 --> 00:30:47,395
Speaker 2: joy than to know my children walk in truth. You know,

708
00:30:47,455 --> 00:30:49,414
Speaker 2: one of the cool things Levi see with you is

709
00:30:49,655 --> 00:30:53,864
Speaker 2: you're always learning. You know, you're always reading. You're always

710
00:30:53,925 --> 00:30:57,415
Speaker 2: discovering new things. You have so much wisdom. I think

711
00:30:57,455 --> 00:31:01,955
Speaker 2: beyond your years, actually. But you're always growing in your

712
00:31:02,015 --> 00:31:05,755
Speaker 2: spiritual life. But your marriage, I think, is so strong.

713
00:31:05,795 --> 00:31:07,545
Speaker 2: And it's such a great example. How long have you

714
00:31:07,584 --> 00:31:08,325
Speaker 2: and Jenny been married?

715
00:31:08,325 --> 00:31:09,185
Speaker 1: 20 years this year.

716
00:31:09,305 --> 00:31:14,225
Speaker 2: Yeah. What would you say to somebody maybe that's newly married? Like,

717
00:31:14,305 --> 00:31:16,664
Speaker 2: here are a couple of things you need to always

718
00:31:16,844 --> 00:31:20,255
Speaker 2: keep in mind if you want your marriage to be strong. Yeah.

719
00:31:20,995 --> 00:31:26,174
Speaker 1: You think about your connection and the question we have,

720
00:31:26,295 --> 00:31:28,475
Speaker 1: we have a marriage counselor and they would always talk

721
00:31:28,515 --> 00:31:32,415
Speaker 1: about hydration. Like you have to be hydrated and your bond,

722
00:31:32,455 --> 00:31:35,134
Speaker 1: your relational bond has to stay hydrated. And when it

723
00:31:35,175 --> 00:31:37,695
Speaker 1: gets dehydrated, it's like when you need lotion on your skin,

724
00:31:37,715 --> 00:31:40,255
Speaker 1: you know? So I think the language that helps, cause

725
00:31:40,275 --> 00:31:42,055
Speaker 1: you can think about when you're thirsty, you can think

726
00:31:42,075 --> 00:31:45,705
Speaker 1: about when someone's dehydrated. So like thinking about the vibe,

727
00:31:45,885 --> 00:31:49,005
Speaker 1: you and Kathy have such a fun jovialness. Like, and when,

728
00:31:49,245 --> 00:31:52,404
Speaker 1: when a relationship is unhealthy, that's the first thing that goes,

729
00:31:52,854 --> 00:31:55,834
Speaker 1: there's not laughing, there's not joking around, there's not the

730
00:31:55,935 --> 00:31:59,235
Speaker 1: inside jokes, you know? So I think for Jen and I,

731
00:31:59,295 --> 00:32:02,075
Speaker 1: we try and keep it to where there's that sense

732
00:32:02,175 --> 00:32:06,305
Speaker 1: of hydration of our relationship, what hydrates you. Of course,

733
00:32:06,385 --> 00:32:10,525
Speaker 1: it's date nights, it's, you know, empathy, vulnerability, you know,

734
00:32:10,705 --> 00:32:14,085
Speaker 1: telling each other what you're what you're going through, learning

735
00:32:14,104 --> 00:32:15,825
Speaker 1: in your quiet time, all those things. I mean, it's

736
00:32:15,865 --> 00:32:19,325
Speaker 1: just a simple, consistent things over time. I heard one

737
00:32:19,344 --> 00:32:21,885
Speaker 1: pastor one time say that if you want a relationship,

738
00:32:21,945 --> 00:32:23,565
Speaker 1: it's great. You have to spend at least 30 minutes

739
00:32:23,625 --> 00:32:26,985
Speaker 1: a day, which is not that much, right? At least

740
00:32:27,165 --> 00:32:30,805
Speaker 1: a day a month, at least a weekend away every quarter.

741
00:32:30,965 --> 00:32:34,225
Speaker 1: And then hopefully over the course of the year, those

742
00:32:34,275 --> 00:32:37,035
Speaker 1: things multiplied out. You know, you're getting that time together.

743
00:32:37,055 --> 00:32:38,114
Speaker 2: You have to be intentional.

744
00:32:38,575 --> 00:32:41,154
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be intentional. I mean, intimacy is

745
00:32:41,475 --> 00:32:45,355
Speaker 1: into me, you see. And so when you stop telling

746
00:32:45,415 --> 00:32:46,614
Speaker 1: the other person what you're.

747
00:32:46,475 --> 00:32:47,655
Speaker 2: Going through, you're facing. I like that. We go back.

748
00:32:47,695 --> 00:32:48,805
Speaker 2: What was that? Intimacy is?

749
00:32:48,854 --> 00:32:51,175
Speaker 1: Intimacy is into me, you see.

750
00:32:51,195 --> 00:32:51,775
Speaker 2: That's interesting.

751
00:32:51,795 --> 00:32:54,114
Speaker 1: So it's being open, you know, and being, here's what

752
00:32:54,135 --> 00:32:57,085
Speaker 1: I'm going through. There's that great scene in the Bruce

753
00:32:57,104 --> 00:32:59,745
Speaker 1: Willis movie, Sixth Sense, where he says, I knew we

754
00:32:59,785 --> 00:33:00,145
Speaker 1: weren't going.

755
00:33:00,065 --> 00:33:01,005
Speaker 2: To make it. I see dead people.

756
00:33:01,025 --> 00:33:04,245
Speaker 1: No, not that scene. No, he said, sorry, it's the

757
00:33:04,305 --> 00:33:06,985
Speaker 1: one with M. Night Shyamalan, the unbroken one, where he's

758
00:33:07,025 --> 00:33:11,474
Speaker 1: like a superhero. He survived a train accident. Anyhow, their

759
00:33:11,495 --> 00:33:13,515
Speaker 1: marriage breaks up. Bruce Willis and his wife, they get

760
00:33:13,555 --> 00:33:15,904
Speaker 1: divorced in the movie. And she says, when did you

761
00:33:15,945 --> 00:33:18,084
Speaker 1: know we weren't going to make it through this? And

762
00:33:18,104 --> 00:33:20,085
Speaker 1: he said, I had a bad dream, but I didn't

763
00:33:20,125 --> 00:33:21,985
Speaker 1: wake you up to tell you about it. Oh, wow.

764
00:33:22,045 --> 00:33:23,625
Speaker 1: And so the whole movie goes on. And the last

765
00:33:23,665 --> 00:33:26,164
Speaker 1: scene of the movie, spoiler alert, is he wakes her

766
00:33:26,225 --> 00:33:28,285
Speaker 1: up in bed and says, hey, I had a bad dream.

767
00:33:28,685 --> 00:33:30,704
Speaker 1: And so he's just being honest. Like, here's what I'm

768
00:33:30,765 --> 00:33:33,614
Speaker 1: going through. I think there's something to that. Like, to

769
00:33:33,655 --> 00:33:37,725
Speaker 1: be honest, to forgive quickly. And then I think... collecting

770
00:33:37,805 --> 00:33:40,885
Speaker 1: inside jokes. Like I think for Jen and I, there

771
00:33:40,945 --> 00:33:43,625
Speaker 1: are so many things that can make us laugh till

772
00:33:43,645 --> 00:33:45,825
Speaker 1: we cry. And I think that's a power in that.

773
00:33:45,885 --> 00:33:48,665
Speaker 2: Yeah, when you see couples divorce that have been married

774
00:33:48,665 --> 00:33:53,104
Speaker 2: 30 years, you think all those photographs, all those memories. Oh,

775
00:33:53,145 --> 00:33:55,025
Speaker 2: now we want to act as though they weren't there.

776
00:33:55,525 --> 00:33:58,184
Speaker 2: And so many shared experiences. There's nobody else I can

777
00:33:58,205 --> 00:34:03,165
Speaker 2: really say, remember the time back in 1972 when this happened?

778
00:34:03,275 --> 00:34:06,155
Speaker 2: And the amazing thing is, is our memory, I feel

779
00:34:06,175 --> 00:34:09,045
Speaker 2: like between Kathy and I, we have one complete brain. Wow.

780
00:34:09,065 --> 00:34:11,685
Speaker 2: Because I'll remember part of it, she'll remember the other part.

781
00:34:11,985 --> 00:34:15,145
Speaker 2: Or even funnier, I'll be telling this story, and Kathy

782
00:34:15,185 --> 00:34:17,405
Speaker 2: will interrupt and say, that's not the way it happened.

783
00:34:17,465 --> 00:34:20,904
Speaker 2: I said, excuse me, you weren't even there. She says, yeah,

784
00:34:21,225 --> 00:34:24,245
Speaker 2: but you told it differently the first time. It's like

785
00:34:24,265 --> 00:34:26,384
Speaker 2: the original Greek, and I said, you know, you're right.

786
00:34:26,645 --> 00:34:29,765
Speaker 2: I need to admit it. But all those shared memories,

787
00:34:30,185 --> 00:34:34,415
Speaker 2: all that shared life, And then looking at the legacy

788
00:34:34,455 --> 00:34:36,325
Speaker 2: of your children. And for you in the future, it'll

789
00:34:36,345 --> 00:34:40,445
Speaker 2: be your grandchildren that you'll see. But, you know, God's

790
00:34:40,485 --> 00:34:42,985
Speaker 2: really gifted you as a communicator. I mean, I believe

791
00:34:43,025 --> 00:34:47,285
Speaker 2: you're extraordinarily gifted to reach people of all ages. You

792
00:34:47,365 --> 00:34:50,165
Speaker 2: certainly connect with younger people. I think you always have.

793
00:34:50,625 --> 00:34:53,205
Speaker 2: But you connect with older people too. You connect, I think,

794
00:34:53,245 --> 00:34:56,515
Speaker 2: with everyone. You take the Bible, and I don't want

795
00:34:56,535 --> 00:34:59,705
Speaker 2: to say you contemporize it, I think what you do

796
00:34:59,725 --> 00:35:02,925
Speaker 2: is you understand it properly. You're a great student. You

797
00:35:02,965 --> 00:35:05,885
Speaker 2: take your time to do your exegesis of a text

798
00:35:06,005 --> 00:35:08,985
Speaker 2: and the background of it, but then you apply it

799
00:35:09,085 --> 00:35:13,625
Speaker 2: in a very interesting, often unexpected way to people. Like

800
00:35:13,665 --> 00:35:17,315
Speaker 2: when you're putting a message together, what would you say

801
00:35:17,435 --> 00:35:20,535
Speaker 2: are some of the things that maybe you do? I

802
00:35:20,555 --> 00:35:22,675
Speaker 2: don't want you to say you do better than others,

803
00:35:22,755 --> 00:35:25,815
Speaker 2: but maybe what are some of the distinctives that you

804
00:35:25,855 --> 00:35:29,045
Speaker 2: think you bring to message preparation? Like, how do you

805
00:35:29,105 --> 00:35:31,335
Speaker 2: do what you do? It would be another way of asking.

806
00:35:31,355 --> 00:35:33,075
Speaker 1: Very good. Well, I think, thank you. Those are kind

807
00:35:33,115 --> 00:35:34,134
Speaker 1: words coming from the master.

808
00:35:34,175 --> 00:35:36,015
Speaker 2: I didn't mean any of them.

809
00:35:36,695 --> 00:35:37,075
Speaker 1: I think.

810
00:35:37,295 --> 00:35:37,674
Speaker 2: I did.

811
00:35:38,015 --> 00:35:41,235
Speaker 1: I think that maybe one thing that's unique to me from,

812
00:35:41,995 --> 00:35:44,174
Speaker 1: because like you said, look, the meaning of the text

813
00:35:44,195 --> 00:35:44,795
Speaker 1: doesn't change.

814
00:35:44,895 --> 00:35:45,075
Speaker 2: Yeah.

815
00:35:45,115 --> 00:35:48,625
Speaker 1: The original language, the history, the intent to the audience

816
00:35:48,665 --> 00:35:50,325
Speaker 1: it was going to, all those things help us figure

817
00:35:50,365 --> 00:35:52,305
Speaker 1: out what does the text mean. The text has one meaning,

818
00:35:52,625 --> 00:35:54,165
Speaker 1: but myriad applications.

819
00:35:54,205 --> 00:35:54,645
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right.

820
00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:56,465
Speaker 1: And ways for that to come to life and come

821
00:35:56,485 --> 00:35:59,614
Speaker 1: to life to people. In an unexpected way. I think

822
00:36:00,135 --> 00:36:02,255
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, we're making connections. Connections

823
00:36:02,295 --> 00:36:05,535
Speaker 1: between the Old Testament and the New Testament, between heaven

824
00:36:05,595 --> 00:36:09,065
Speaker 1: and our world, and then people's daily lives. And one

825
00:36:09,085 --> 00:36:12,005
Speaker 1: of the ways maybe that for me, there's more options

826
00:36:12,025 --> 00:36:15,225
Speaker 1: for illustrating is, like you said, constant reading, constant reading.

827
00:36:15,245 --> 00:36:18,025
Speaker 1: And then I'm always talking stuff away. So always going

828
00:36:18,045 --> 00:36:20,895
Speaker 1: through multiple different books, articles, podcasts. And then I think

829
00:36:21,165 --> 00:36:23,805
Speaker 1: the missing step is thinking you're going to remember it.

830
00:36:24,395 --> 00:36:27,175
Speaker 1: So today in my quiet time, I came across a

831
00:36:27,195 --> 00:36:29,915
Speaker 1: great quote. I'm going to inventory, put it in my

832
00:36:29,995 --> 00:36:33,355
Speaker 1: inventory inside Evernote, tag it, take the extra time. Here's

833
00:36:33,395 --> 00:36:35,235
Speaker 1: how this could be used. Put it in there so

834
00:36:35,335 --> 00:36:37,035
Speaker 1: that later on it's ready for it. Like I'm listening

835
00:36:37,075 --> 00:36:40,174
Speaker 1: to this podcast where Kelly Slater says he spends more

836
00:36:40,245 --> 00:36:44,255
Speaker 1: time doing stretching than strength training. Because when it comes

837
00:36:44,315 --> 00:36:46,055
Speaker 1: to joints, either you move it.

838
00:36:46,075 --> 00:36:47,355
Speaker 2: Or you lose it. Oh, that's good.

839
00:36:47,395 --> 00:36:49,595
Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, wow. There's a sermon title, Move

840
00:36:49,665 --> 00:36:50,145
Speaker 1: It or Lose It.

841
00:36:50,165 --> 00:36:50,725
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good.

842
00:36:50,915 --> 00:36:53,065
Speaker 1: Why our soul craves whatever.

843
00:36:53,185 --> 00:36:53,665
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

844
00:36:53,705 --> 00:36:54,325
Speaker 1: Flexibility.

845
00:36:54,465 --> 00:36:54,965
Speaker 2: I like that.

846
00:36:55,225 --> 00:36:56,665
Speaker 1: And then, so now all of a sudden I've got

847
00:36:56,705 --> 00:37:00,125
Speaker 1: a surfer talking about his knee mobility, his hip mobility.

848
00:37:00,605 --> 00:37:02,505
Speaker 2: And I'm talking about- Have you used that in a

849
00:37:02,525 --> 00:37:02,985
Speaker 2: sermon yet?

850
00:37:03,185 --> 00:37:04,384
Speaker 1: I'm writing the sermon right now.

851
00:37:04,405 --> 00:37:06,285
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I'm going to preach it tomorrow. So tell

852
00:37:06,385 --> 00:37:07,705
Speaker 2: people to think you stole.

853
00:37:07,525 --> 00:37:10,175
Speaker 1: It from me. That's hilarious. I think you already have

854
00:37:10,215 --> 00:37:10,594
Speaker 1: your sermon.

855
00:37:10,695 --> 00:37:12,215
Speaker 2: Move it or lose it, my latest sermon.

856
00:37:12,235 --> 00:37:15,765
Speaker 1: What a great title, right? So now you're like talking, okay,

857
00:37:15,825 --> 00:37:19,225
Speaker 1: what he's done, surfing, whatever. But the connection is, you know,

858
00:37:19,745 --> 00:37:23,665
Speaker 1: make sure you use your soul's mobility. Right, whatever. The

859
00:37:23,725 --> 00:37:25,525
Speaker 1: one I'm actually working on is a sermon on prayer.

860
00:37:25,965 --> 00:37:29,505
Speaker 1: So that'll be that title. So it's just constantly socking

861
00:37:29,585 --> 00:37:29,865
Speaker 1: stuff away.

862
00:37:29,885 --> 00:37:30,865
Speaker 2: Do you like to preach?

863
00:37:31,345 --> 00:37:33,844
Speaker 1: Love it. I love that. I love listening to preaching.

864
00:37:33,875 --> 00:37:35,125
Speaker 1: I love writing sermons.

865
00:37:35,185 --> 00:37:35,415
Speaker 2: Right.

866
00:37:35,555 --> 00:37:36,055
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

867
00:37:36,235 --> 00:37:38,335
Speaker 2: I can tell you what my favorite part of ministry is.

868
00:37:39,075 --> 00:37:41,155
Speaker 2: And I've said this to pastors. I said, you know,

869
00:37:41,515 --> 00:37:45,535
Speaker 2: I think I love studying. I do like to study writing.

870
00:37:45,635 --> 00:37:48,485
Speaker 2: I like the preparation part, crafting the message and then

871
00:37:48,525 --> 00:37:51,345
Speaker 2: delivering it. I love all that. I love it more

872
00:37:51,585 --> 00:37:53,725
Speaker 2: even than when I started. And I really liked it

873
00:37:53,765 --> 00:37:56,625
Speaker 2: a lot when I started. I enjoy the whole process.

874
00:37:57,065 --> 00:37:59,745
Speaker 2: And I see some preachers don't love it. They're phoning

875
00:37:59,765 --> 00:38:04,295
Speaker 2: it in. You know, old sermons sometimes, unfortunately, sermons that

876
00:38:04,335 --> 00:38:07,135
Speaker 2: aren't theirs at all. And now we've got our, you know, AI.

877
00:38:07,175 --> 00:38:09,235
Speaker 1: Chat GPT written. Yeah, right.

878
00:38:09,275 --> 00:38:11,825
Speaker 2: What is it? Grok, too, you know. And though these

879
00:38:11,865 --> 00:38:13,845
Speaker 2: are tools that if you use them properly can be

880
00:38:13,885 --> 00:38:17,505
Speaker 2: very helpful, actually. But we don't want them writing everything.

881
00:38:17,525 --> 00:38:20,845
Speaker 2: Because I think that, you know, the best definition of

882
00:38:20,925 --> 00:38:24,005
Speaker 2: preaching I've heard is truth through personality. It has to

883
00:38:24,065 --> 00:38:28,045
Speaker 2: work its way through you. You know, it's logic on fire.

884
00:38:28,385 --> 00:38:30,265
Speaker 2: So you've got to have the logic, but you've got

885
00:38:30,285 --> 00:38:34,215
Speaker 2: to have the fire. Sometimes lots of logic, sound theologically

886
00:38:34,395 --> 00:38:38,635
Speaker 2: very organized, no fire. Other times, all fire, all emotion,

887
00:38:38,895 --> 00:38:42,715
Speaker 2: all illustrations, no content. So I think it's getting both

888
00:38:42,755 --> 00:38:45,195
Speaker 2: of them in balance. I think you do a great

889
00:38:45,235 --> 00:38:45,835
Speaker 2: job of that.

890
00:38:45,855 --> 00:38:46,215
Speaker 1: Thank you.

891
00:38:46,415 --> 00:38:49,905
Speaker 2: Like culturally, I'm sorry I interrupted you. You were saying something.

892
00:38:49,925 --> 00:38:51,385
Speaker 2: I just said, do you like to preach? But you

893
00:38:51,405 --> 00:38:52,325
Speaker 2: were on a train of thought.

894
00:38:52,605 --> 00:38:56,575
Speaker 1: I love it the same way. Although I think For me,

895
00:38:57,335 --> 00:39:00,375
Speaker 1: the unexpected addition was writing books.

896
00:39:00,555 --> 00:39:01,955
Speaker 2: And you're really good at that, too.

897
00:39:02,035 --> 00:39:02,475
Speaker 1: Thank you.

898
00:39:02,595 --> 00:39:04,785
Speaker 2: And it's really different than preaching, isn't it?

899
00:39:05,015 --> 00:39:08,205
Speaker 1: Very different. And I would say I love preaching more

900
00:39:08,225 --> 00:39:09,705
Speaker 1: than I've ever loved it. I love writing more than

901
00:39:09,725 --> 00:39:12,545
Speaker 1: I've ever loved it. I don't know. I could see

902
00:39:12,585 --> 00:39:15,565
Speaker 1: a day where I preached a little less and wrote

903
00:39:15,585 --> 00:39:18,325
Speaker 1: a little more. Not that I would not preach at all,

904
00:39:18,525 --> 00:39:21,905
Speaker 1: but I really enjoy... With a sermon, you're getting 40

905
00:39:21,905 --> 00:39:24,385
Speaker 1: minutes with somebody. If they read a book, you're with

906
00:39:24,405 --> 00:39:27,275
Speaker 1: them for 30 hours. You can take them on a journey,

907
00:39:27,555 --> 00:39:29,515
Speaker 1: and the feedback you get from someone who's finished a

908
00:39:29,555 --> 00:39:31,875
Speaker 1: book is... It's different than someone who just.

909
00:39:31,775 --> 00:39:32,395
Speaker 2: Watched a talk.

910
00:39:33,435 --> 00:39:36,094
Speaker 1: God uses a message to open their eyes in some

911
00:39:36,135 --> 00:39:39,645
Speaker 1: great way or salvation. It's a great honor. But when

912
00:39:39,865 --> 00:39:41,245
Speaker 1: you meet someone who's read a book and they hand

913
00:39:41,285 --> 00:39:43,185
Speaker 1: it to you to sign, it's like dog-eared and there's

914
00:39:43,205 --> 00:39:44,005
Speaker 1: stuff highlighted.

915
00:39:44,865 --> 00:39:45,505
Speaker 2: It's beautiful.

916
00:39:45,725 --> 00:39:48,725
Speaker 1: And I really like the written word. And I like

917
00:39:48,745 --> 00:39:51,055
Speaker 1: going into that season of writing. When I'm writing... In

918
00:39:51,075 --> 00:39:53,995
Speaker 1: a writing mode, I write every day but Sunday, 1,000

919
00:39:53,995 --> 00:39:56,395
Speaker 1: words a day until the rough draft's done. So that's

920
00:39:56,395 --> 00:39:56,935
Speaker 1: 50 writing days.

921
00:39:56,975 --> 00:39:58,955
Speaker 2: And you sit down at a little, like you told me,

922
00:39:58,955 --> 00:40:00,455
Speaker 2: a little typewriter kind of device.

923
00:40:00,475 --> 00:40:04,435
Speaker 1: Yeah. I found this thing called the Traveler by FreeWrite.

924
00:40:04,475 --> 00:40:04,735
Speaker 2: Yeah.

925
00:40:04,755 --> 00:40:06,005
Speaker 1: And I'm not getting paid by them.

926
00:40:05,875 --> 00:40:08,125
Speaker 2: To mention that. I saw it advertised. I thought, I

927
00:40:08,265 --> 00:40:09,405
Speaker 2: wonder if that's a good idea.

928
00:40:09,565 --> 00:40:10,844
Speaker 1: It's like a keyboard.

929
00:40:10,925 --> 00:40:11,045
Speaker 2: Yeah.

930
00:40:11,065 --> 00:40:12,405
Speaker 1: And it has an e-ink screen.

931
00:40:12,545 --> 00:40:14,225
Speaker 2: It's almost like an old school typewriter.

932
00:40:14,285 --> 00:40:14,805
Speaker 1: Old school typewriter.

933
00:40:14,825 --> 00:40:16,505
Speaker 2: Because you can't go online with it.

934
00:40:16,725 --> 00:40:18,645
Speaker 1: It goes online, but only to store what you've written.

935
00:40:18,665 --> 00:40:19,165
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Okay.

936
00:40:19,415 --> 00:40:22,275
Speaker 1: So it sends it to Dropbox. So you're getting a backup.

937
00:40:22,475 --> 00:40:24,915
Speaker 1: So every day, so I've taken that thing everywhere. I mean,

938
00:40:24,935 --> 00:40:27,195
Speaker 1: I've written on top of a mountain, you know, and

939
00:40:27,475 --> 00:40:29,435
Speaker 1: I'll just, it tells you your word count. And I

940
00:40:29,455 --> 00:40:30,975
Speaker 1: write till I get to a thousand words. If it

941
00:40:30,995 --> 00:40:33,125
Speaker 1: takes me an hour, if it takes me five hours,

942
00:40:33,305 --> 00:40:35,265
Speaker 1: I'm going to finish a thousand words today. And I

943
00:40:35,285 --> 00:40:38,165
Speaker 1: don't edit while I'm writing. I never think, is this good?

944
00:40:38,545 --> 00:40:39,205
Speaker 1: Does this make sense?

945
00:40:39,245 --> 00:40:40,545
Speaker 2: I just write. That's right.

946
00:40:40,605 --> 00:40:42,844
Speaker 1: And then in a different frame of mind, I'll come

947
00:40:42,885 --> 00:40:45,785
Speaker 1: back and edit it. Jerry Seinfeld said, when you write-

948
00:40:46,915 --> 00:40:51,275
Speaker 1: In a podcast that I listened to him in. That's amazing.

949
00:40:51,495 --> 00:40:54,715
Speaker 2: You listened to a podcast from Kelly Slater and Jerry Seinfeld.

950
00:40:54,755 --> 00:40:56,175
Speaker 1: So that's the secret sauce.

951
00:40:56,195 --> 00:40:57,455
Speaker 2: That is a little bit, isn't it?

952
00:40:57,515 --> 00:41:01,285
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're able to connect. So bodybuilders say you

953
00:41:01,305 --> 00:41:03,825
Speaker 1: have to eat big to get big. I think preaching

954
00:41:03,865 --> 00:41:05,945
Speaker 1: and communicating, you have to be taking in a lot.

955
00:41:06,285 --> 00:41:08,845
Speaker 2: I eat big and get big in my stomach. It's different.

956
00:41:09,005 --> 00:41:11,404
Speaker 1: It's the same thing. You're just choosing where you get big.

957
00:41:11,915 --> 00:41:12,705
Speaker 1: The carbs are empty.

958
00:41:12,845 --> 00:41:13,895
Speaker 2: But what did Jerry say?

959
00:41:14,035 --> 00:41:17,165
Speaker 1: He said when you write, because he famously puts an

960
00:41:17,305 --> 00:41:18,975
Speaker 1: X on a calendar every day he writes a joke.

961
00:41:19,655 --> 00:41:21,855
Speaker 1: And he writes a joke every day. He never misses.

962
00:41:21,955 --> 00:41:23,975
Speaker 1: So he writes a joke every day. It's called the

963
00:41:23,995 --> 00:41:26,815
Speaker 1: Seinfeld method. You literally put an X on the calendar.

964
00:41:26,835 --> 00:41:29,215
Speaker 1: Did I write today? And he said when you're writing,

965
00:41:29,255 --> 00:41:32,135
Speaker 1: you have to treat yourself like you're a kindergartner. You

966
00:41:32,195 --> 00:41:34,055
Speaker 1: can do a little, because writing's hard. We all sit down.

967
00:41:34,095 --> 00:41:37,255
Speaker 1: We get writer's block. We get distracted by the internet, chat,

968
00:41:37,295 --> 00:41:39,995
Speaker 1: whatever else is going on. But you have to say like,

969
00:41:40,035 --> 00:41:42,035
Speaker 1: come on, little boy, you can do it like a kindergarten.

970
00:41:42,055 --> 00:41:44,315
Speaker 1: But he said, when you edit, you treat yourself like

971
00:41:44,355 --> 00:41:47,175
Speaker 1: a drill sergeant. Oh, what is this crap? Let's read. Oh,

972
00:41:47,215 --> 00:41:49,225
Speaker 1: what is this garbage? You have to be hard on

973
00:41:49,245 --> 00:41:51,705
Speaker 1: yourself in the editing room and kind to yourself in

974
00:41:51,725 --> 00:41:52,665
Speaker 1: the creative process.

975
00:41:52,865 --> 00:41:56,725
Speaker 2: That's really well said. And when I write, I just

976
00:41:57,025 --> 00:42:01,445
Speaker 2: download in a document. I don't worry about grammar, punctuation, spelling.

977
00:42:01,465 --> 00:42:04,475
Speaker 2: I just get it down. And then I go and

978
00:42:04,495 --> 00:42:06,195
Speaker 2: deal with it. And it's funny, even after I think

979
00:42:06,235 --> 00:42:09,995
Speaker 2: a message is done, I've heard John Irwin often quote,

980
00:42:10,075 --> 00:42:12,275
Speaker 2: I think it's George Lucas who said, a movie is

981
00:42:12,335 --> 00:42:15,715
Speaker 2: never finished, it's just abandoned. And I feel that way

982
00:42:15,735 --> 00:42:17,845
Speaker 2: a little bit about a sermon. Like I'm always piddling

983
00:42:17,865 --> 00:42:18,085
Speaker 2: with it.

984
00:42:18,085 --> 00:42:18,965
Speaker 1: You're tinkering with it, yeah.

985
00:42:19,085 --> 00:42:21,844
Speaker 2: And even when I'm giving it, after I've gone through

986
00:42:21,865 --> 00:42:25,105
Speaker 2: it so many times, I'm editing sometimes on the fly

987
00:42:25,245 --> 00:42:27,425
Speaker 2: in the pulpit. And I don't even know why I

988
00:42:27,465 --> 00:42:29,655
Speaker 2: do it because I actually think it was fine. But

989
00:42:29,695 --> 00:42:33,675
Speaker 2: I just start rearranging it. And taking this intro and

990
00:42:33,715 --> 00:42:35,455
Speaker 2: I'm moving it back and that thing at the end,

991
00:42:35,475 --> 00:42:38,375
Speaker 2: I'm putting it up front. And I don't even understand.

992
00:42:38,395 --> 00:42:40,555
Speaker 1: Even after all that, you're driving home thinking, I could

993
00:42:40,575 --> 00:42:42,275
Speaker 1: have done it better. I could have done it better.

994
00:42:42,375 --> 00:42:44,665
Speaker 1: It's sick. And then you think, I have to do

995
00:42:44,685 --> 00:42:47,364
Speaker 1: this again tomorrow. And I think that's maybe the part

996
00:42:47,405 --> 00:42:48,885
Speaker 1: that I'm like, I could just write a book a

997
00:42:48,945 --> 00:42:51,965
Speaker 1: year and send it from my cabin. But I think

998
00:42:52,485 --> 00:42:56,785
Speaker 1: there's a– immediate return. When you write a book, you're

999
00:42:56,805 --> 00:42:58,905
Speaker 1: like throwing a message in a bottle into the ocean.

1000
00:42:59,045 --> 00:43:01,085
Speaker 1: You're going to get response. I mean, my newest book

1001
00:43:01,145 --> 00:43:04,925
Speaker 1: I wrote in 2023 that's just coming out in 2025 out.

1002
00:43:04,985 --> 00:43:09,415
Speaker 1: So there's years between. I worked two years on that book.

1003
00:43:09,615 --> 00:43:11,275
Speaker 2: I want to come back to your book because I

1004
00:43:11,315 --> 00:43:12,094
Speaker 2: want to talk about that.

1005
00:43:12,355 --> 00:43:15,415
Speaker 1: But the immediacy of the payoff from preaching. You get

1006
00:43:15,435 --> 00:43:17,535
Speaker 1: to watch a real audience react to it that week is.

1007
00:43:17,495 --> 00:43:19,094
Speaker 2: All I'm saying. What I wanted to say to that

1008
00:43:19,175 --> 00:43:23,585
Speaker 2: point is what I really appreciate about you is you

1009
00:43:23,625 --> 00:43:27,585
Speaker 2: have remained a pastor of a local church. Because sometimes

1010
00:43:28,065 --> 00:43:30,405
Speaker 2: young men will go out and have a certain degree

1011
00:43:30,425 --> 00:43:33,555
Speaker 2: of success, and they have a book that does very well,

1012
00:43:33,765 --> 00:43:36,415
Speaker 2: and they leave their church, and now they just write books.

1013
00:43:36,575 --> 00:43:39,215
Speaker 2: Now look, if that's what God's calling them to do, whatever.

1014
00:43:39,315 --> 00:43:41,395
Speaker 2: I'm not here to say that's a good or a

1015
00:43:41,415 --> 00:43:44,155
Speaker 2: bad thing, but I'm here to say this. I think

1016
00:43:44,195 --> 00:43:46,975
Speaker 2: the greatest thing, and I think a very high calling,

1017
00:43:47,295 --> 00:43:50,255
Speaker 2: is being a pastor of a flock. There's an accountability there.

1018
00:43:50,675 --> 00:43:54,635
Speaker 2: It grounds you. There's a reality there. And that's very important.

1019
00:43:54,735 --> 00:43:56,815
Speaker 2: And not only do I love to preach, I love

1020
00:43:56,855 --> 00:43:59,595
Speaker 2: to be a pastor. I love to help people. And

1021
00:43:59,635 --> 00:44:02,165
Speaker 2: I know you do too. You have a real shepherd's heart.

1022
00:44:02,305 --> 00:44:04,725
Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the secrets of your

1023
00:44:04,785 --> 00:44:07,645
Speaker 2: success as well. Because frankly, if you wanted to, you

1024
00:44:07,685 --> 00:44:10,685
Speaker 2: could just go become the roving preacher, speak at all

1025
00:44:10,725 --> 00:44:13,585
Speaker 2: the conferences, have your books that you come out with,

1026
00:44:13,685 --> 00:44:16,745
Speaker 2: and that's fine. But I appreciate the fact that you

1027
00:44:16,805 --> 00:44:18,315
Speaker 2: haven't done that. But I want to come back to

1028
00:44:18,355 --> 00:44:18,695
Speaker 2: your book.

1029
00:44:18,915 --> 00:44:23,085
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I feel, to your point, It's calling. It's

1030
00:44:23,105 --> 00:44:27,685
Speaker 1: like Jeremiah said, fire my bones. If God believed me,

1031
00:44:28,975 --> 00:44:31,614
Speaker 1: we wouldn't probably have gone to Montana in the first place.

1032
00:44:31,655 --> 00:44:34,515
Speaker 1: I think we feel a sense of calling. We feel

1033
00:44:34,535 --> 00:44:36,995
Speaker 1: a sense of focus. We feel a sense of this

1034
00:44:37,015 --> 00:44:37,775
Speaker 1: is where we're supposed to be.

1035
00:44:38,035 --> 00:44:40,114
Speaker 2: Well, you would never say this. I'll say it about you.

1036
00:44:40,715 --> 00:44:44,285
Speaker 2: You've had opportunities to leave Montana. And I don't want

1037
00:44:44,305 --> 00:44:47,335
Speaker 2: to say go to greener pastures. But you could have

1038
00:44:47,355 --> 00:44:50,674
Speaker 2: gone on to much bigger things. You've had really nice

1039
00:44:50,755 --> 00:44:53,295
Speaker 2: opportunities offered to you. Would you come and be the

1040
00:44:53,335 --> 00:44:56,904
Speaker 2: pastor of this church? And you've turned them all down.

1041
00:44:57,305 --> 00:44:59,745
Speaker 2: You've probably never even shared that with your congregants.

1042
00:44:59,825 --> 00:45:00,645
Speaker 1: Have you? No, for sure not.

1043
00:45:00,685 --> 00:45:02,385
Speaker 2: No, because you're not going to tell them that. But

1044
00:45:03,005 --> 00:45:05,665
Speaker 2: it'd be like saying to your kids, yeah, I had

1045
00:45:05,685 --> 00:45:07,915
Speaker 2: a chance to leave your mom and go off and

1046
00:45:07,935 --> 00:45:12,875
Speaker 2: marry this other girl. But now I'm giving a revelation

1047
00:45:12,915 --> 00:45:16,435
Speaker 2: to people that are maybe in your church. Your pastor...

1048
00:45:16,485 --> 00:45:20,015
Speaker 2: has had many opportunities to do some pretty big things,

1049
00:45:20,515 --> 00:45:22,715
Speaker 2: and he's chosen to be faithful to the calling that

1050
00:45:22,755 --> 00:45:25,515
Speaker 2: he has with you. So you should appreciate that about him.

1051
00:45:26,615 --> 00:45:28,925
Speaker 1: So go to bed. Brush your teeth. That's right.

1052
00:45:29,185 --> 00:45:32,005
Speaker 2: So coming back to your newest book that you wrote earlier,

1053
00:45:32,025 --> 00:45:34,085
Speaker 2: but it's coming out now. Tell us the title and

1054
00:45:34,145 --> 00:45:34,785
Speaker 2: what is it about?

1055
00:45:35,005 --> 00:45:37,645
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. It's called Blessed are the Spiraling.

1056
00:45:37,785 --> 00:45:39,085
Speaker 2: Blessed are the Spiraling.

1057
00:45:39,105 --> 00:45:39,925
Speaker 1: Blessed are the Spiraling.

1058
00:45:39,945 --> 00:45:43,225
Speaker 2: That seems almost contradictory. Like if I'm spiraling, how can

1059
00:45:43,265 --> 00:45:43,905
Speaker 2: I be blessed?

1060
00:45:43,985 --> 00:45:48,365
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And Jesus says, blessed are those who mourn.

1061
00:45:49,025 --> 00:45:51,995
Speaker 1: So I mean, really, the heart is, blessed are you

1062
00:45:52,035 --> 00:45:53,755
Speaker 1: when you're spiraling, in the sense that.

1063
00:45:53,915 --> 00:45:54,735
Speaker 2: What is spiraling?

1064
00:45:55,055 --> 00:45:57,715
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the sense of I don't feel grounded. I

1065
00:45:57,835 --> 00:46:00,155
Speaker 1: feel out of control. I feel destabilized. I don't know

1066
00:46:00,195 --> 00:46:00,855
Speaker 1: what's going on.

1067
00:46:00,895 --> 00:46:01,634
Speaker 2: You felt that way?

1068
00:46:01,795 --> 00:46:02,395
Speaker 1: For sure.

1069
00:46:02,735 --> 00:46:05,495
Speaker 2: See, people might think, well, now, Levi, you've come, you know,

1070
00:46:05,535 --> 00:46:08,085
Speaker 2: you've been a Christian all these years and you've come

1071
00:46:08,105 --> 00:46:12,265
Speaker 2: through the worst tragedies imaginable with your faith intact, with

1072
00:46:12,305 --> 00:46:15,645
Speaker 2: your marriage strong, with your church strong, with everything strong.

1073
00:46:16,315 --> 00:46:19,325
Speaker 2: And you have moments where you would describe yourself as spiraling?

1074
00:46:19,805 --> 00:46:23,745
Speaker 1: Well, yes, daily. Paul said, besides the other things that

1075
00:46:23,825 --> 00:46:26,125
Speaker 1: come upon me, the concern for the church. Yes, there's

1076
00:46:26,265 --> 00:46:29,305
Speaker 1: all the different things. But the book's about a period

1077
00:46:29,465 --> 00:46:32,225
Speaker 1: when I turned 38. I didn't know what was going on.

1078
00:46:32,595 --> 00:46:34,155
Speaker 1: Now I know to look back and go, oh.

1079
00:46:34,355 --> 00:46:35,375
Speaker 2: And how old are you now? I'm 42.

1080
00:46:35,355 --> 00:46:38,955
Speaker 1: So this is four years ago. Now I know to

1081
00:46:38,995 --> 00:46:41,535
Speaker 1: look back and go, I was having a midlife crisis.

1082
00:46:41,915 --> 00:46:44,775
Speaker 1: But in the moment, you just know. What's going on?

1083
00:46:44,935 --> 00:46:48,015
Speaker 1: I started having about two in the morning every night

1084
00:46:48,255 --> 00:46:50,375
Speaker 1: these panic attacks where I would just wake up out

1085
00:46:50,415 --> 00:46:54,415
Speaker 1: of a dead sleep, heart racing, sweating. I didn't understand

1086
00:46:54,435 --> 00:46:59,035
Speaker 1: what was going on. So it's scary. I called my doctor.

1087
00:46:59,615 --> 00:47:03,634
Speaker 1: I called my counselor that I was meeting with, called

1088
00:47:03,675 --> 00:47:06,114
Speaker 1: our board of directors, and he was trying to look

1089
00:47:06,275 --> 00:47:10,585
Speaker 1: under every rock. What's going on? And there was certainly–

1090
00:47:10,925 --> 00:47:13,405
Speaker 1: some things that needed to change in my schedule. You know,

1091
00:47:13,425 --> 00:47:16,225
Speaker 1: I was flying 175 flights a year, plus preaching 40

1092
00:47:16,225 --> 00:47:18,605
Speaker 1: weeks a year at Fresh Life, plus writing books, plus

1093
00:47:18,705 --> 00:47:22,065
Speaker 1: all these other things, raising kids. And I was just,

1094
00:47:22,365 --> 00:47:25,345
Speaker 1: the pace was just too much, you know. And at

1095
00:47:25,395 --> 00:47:28,355
Speaker 1: the same time, I hit the point in life where

1096
00:47:28,815 --> 00:47:32,475
Speaker 1: it's the second half. You know, the average worldwide life

1097
00:47:32,515 --> 00:47:33,675
Speaker 1: expectancy is 72.

1098
00:47:33,675 --> 00:47:38,755
Speaker 2: Oh, that's great. That's my age. Well, this podcast just ended.

1099
00:47:39,115 --> 00:47:39,475
Speaker 1: Thank you.

1100
00:47:40,475 --> 00:47:42,575
Speaker 2: You know why? Cause I'm spiraling.

1101
00:47:42,675 --> 00:47:43,355
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

1102
00:47:43,375 --> 00:47:44,195
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1103
00:47:44,255 --> 00:47:46,135
Speaker 1: So I, I think it's just, there's some, did you

1104
00:47:46,175 --> 00:47:48,094
Speaker 1: experience that at midlife? Like, was there like a, yeah.

1105
00:47:48,555 --> 00:47:52,815
Speaker 2: Um, I wouldn't say it was exactly like you're talking about, but,

1106
00:47:53,585 --> 00:47:55,905
Speaker 2: but I do think there was a phase of my life.

1107
00:47:56,105 --> 00:47:59,045
Speaker 2: I would say it was funny about mid thirties or

1108
00:47:59,165 --> 00:48:02,015
Speaker 2: I was just questioning where, where am I going? Like, well,

1109
00:48:02,075 --> 00:48:04,735
Speaker 2: what am I going to do? Is this it? Have I, is,

1110
00:48:04,755 --> 00:48:07,165
Speaker 2: is it going to go beyond this? And, Yeah, so

1111
00:48:07,285 --> 00:48:09,895
Speaker 2: in a way, I would say I've experienced something like that.

1112
00:48:09,915 --> 00:48:13,095
Speaker 1: And it's all different, but I don't know very many people,

1113
00:48:13,135 --> 00:48:15,335
Speaker 1: but men specifically, because that's the kind of person I

1114
00:48:15,355 --> 00:48:19,035
Speaker 1: would have more intimate conversations like this with, that have

1115
00:48:19,135 --> 00:48:22,955
Speaker 1: gotten through 38 to 42 without some serious issue. I

1116
00:48:22,955 --> 00:48:25,065
Speaker 1: was talking to my friend Cody Carnes, writes a lot

1117
00:48:25,085 --> 00:48:27,185
Speaker 1: of songs. He said the same exact thing. That song

1118
00:48:27,225 --> 00:48:29,405
Speaker 1: Firm Foundation that's been sung around the world came out

1119
00:48:29,425 --> 00:48:31,725
Speaker 1: of him having panic attacks. And I think there's just

1120
00:48:31,825 --> 00:48:34,345
Speaker 1: something to the second half of life where you go,

1121
00:48:34,465 --> 00:48:37,145
Speaker 1: for me, And I did a lot of this, you know,

1122
00:48:37,185 --> 00:48:37,885
Speaker 1: work and reflection.

1123
00:48:37,905 --> 00:48:40,485
Speaker 2: You can just refer to me as, for you, Greg,

1124
00:48:40,545 --> 00:48:41,864
Speaker 2: as a person who's almost dead.

1125
00:48:43,485 --> 00:48:46,645
Speaker 1: Stop it. So I think for me, I was always

1126
00:48:46,665 --> 00:48:47,405
Speaker 1: the young preacher.

1127
00:48:47,545 --> 00:48:47,805
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1128
00:48:47,925 --> 00:48:49,025
Speaker 1: You know, you and everybody else.

1129
00:48:49,145 --> 00:48:50,125
Speaker 2: I was too, believe it or not.

1130
00:48:50,145 --> 00:48:52,705
Speaker 1: The young pastor. For a long time. And I realized

1131
00:48:53,225 --> 00:48:55,415
Speaker 1: I'm not old, but I'm not young.

1132
00:48:55,495 --> 00:48:55,775
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1133
00:48:56,075 --> 00:48:59,355
Speaker 1: So I'm in transition. And I think transitions are always scary.

1134
00:48:59,475 --> 00:49:02,815
Speaker 2: I would beg to differ. I think you're young still.

1135
00:49:03,115 --> 00:49:04,245
Speaker 2: I think when you hit 72, that age.

1136
00:49:05,735 --> 00:49:07,415
Speaker 2: You described so eloquently.

1137
00:49:08,815 --> 00:49:11,195
Speaker 1: It's not the American cause of death like age.

1138
00:49:11,315 --> 00:49:14,625
Speaker 2: It's worldwide. Yeah. Oh, I feel better.

1139
00:49:15,585 --> 00:49:19,145
Speaker 1: In America, we live longer than the world average globally.

1140
00:49:19,245 --> 00:49:21,275
Speaker 2: But when I look back in your age, I still

1141
00:49:21,315 --> 00:49:22,615
Speaker 2: think you're young. But go ahead.

1142
00:49:22,735 --> 00:49:24,935
Speaker 1: But when you were my age, you were feeling some

1143
00:49:24,955 --> 00:49:25,355
Speaker 1: of those things.

1144
00:49:25,355 --> 00:49:26,825
Speaker 2: When you are middle-aged, that's true.

1145
00:49:27,125 --> 00:49:29,455
Speaker 1: You felt some of those things. And I think the

1146
00:49:29,605 --> 00:49:34,705
Speaker 1: book is all about just realizing, okay, so here's a framework.

1147
00:49:35,185 --> 00:49:37,805
Speaker 1: When you're young, so much of it's just scale. I

1148
00:49:37,825 --> 00:49:39,364
Speaker 1: want to do all these things for God. I want

1149
00:49:39,385 --> 00:49:42,844
Speaker 1: to reach every last person. And I'm not saying this

1150
00:49:42,865 --> 00:49:45,945
Speaker 1: in a negative way. whether it's how many people come

1151
00:49:45,985 --> 00:49:47,885
Speaker 1: to your church, how many people listen to you preach,

1152
00:49:48,205 --> 00:49:51,545
Speaker 1: it's size. And part of that is just young men,

1153
00:49:51,625 --> 00:49:55,105
Speaker 1: fire in the belly, entrepreneurial, all of those things. And

1154
00:49:55,365 --> 00:49:57,605
Speaker 1: when you are in the second half of life, you

1155
00:49:57,685 --> 00:50:00,395
Speaker 1: can't just be focusing on just pure size. You have

1156
00:50:00,455 --> 00:50:03,495
Speaker 1: to also be thinking significance. Who am I investing in?

1157
00:50:03,755 --> 00:50:05,375
Speaker 1: Who are the next leaders I can raise up? It's

1158
00:50:05,395 --> 00:50:08,695
Speaker 1: not just about what I'm out there doing. In the

1159
00:50:08,755 --> 00:50:12,035
Speaker 1: old days of like, nomadic Indian tribes, you had a

1160
00:50:12,235 --> 00:50:15,395
Speaker 1: better frame of reference and seeing like there was the warriors,

1161
00:50:15,755 --> 00:50:19,155
Speaker 1: there was the elders, there was the sages, you know?

1162
00:50:19,175 --> 00:50:22,965
Speaker 1: And so I think it's just gracefully learning to move

1163
00:50:23,005 --> 00:50:25,205
Speaker 1: into seasons. And I've watched you do this, like wanting

1164
00:50:25,225 --> 00:50:27,825
Speaker 1: to pour into young pastors, wanting to develop, wanting to

1165
00:50:28,185 --> 00:50:30,844
Speaker 1: be generous with your influence. And I think That's part

1166
00:50:30,885 --> 00:50:32,915
Speaker 1: of the beauty of the second half of life.

1167
00:50:33,035 --> 00:50:33,235
Speaker 2: Right.

1168
00:50:33,375 --> 00:50:35,895
Speaker 1: It's just thinking it's not just about how much I'm doing.

1169
00:50:35,955 --> 00:50:39,035
Speaker 1: It's about who I'm opening doors for and helping to

1170
00:50:39,095 --> 00:50:40,255
Speaker 1: reach their full potential.

1171
00:50:40,295 --> 00:50:40,575
Speaker 2: I love that.

1172
00:50:40,815 --> 00:50:41,815
Speaker 1: Like you're saying, you know?

1173
00:50:41,835 --> 00:50:44,975
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the message of your book is you went

1174
00:50:45,035 --> 00:50:48,985
Speaker 2: through this time where you feel like it was something

1175
00:50:49,025 --> 00:50:52,225
Speaker 2: of a midlife crisis. You know, you're wondering where you're going.

1176
00:50:52,945 --> 00:50:56,444
Speaker 2: What has helped you to get through this and helps

1177
00:50:56,465 --> 00:50:57,425
Speaker 2: you to get through this? Yeah.

1178
00:50:58,045 --> 00:51:01,055
Speaker 1: Well, I think partially it helped to know that that's

1179
00:51:01,095 --> 00:51:05,855
Speaker 1: not crazy for feeling those things. When I was first

1180
00:51:05,895 --> 00:51:10,935
Speaker 1: going through it, I felt shame. And weirdly, there was

1181
00:51:11,235 --> 00:51:15,925
Speaker 1: a period in that time where I had apathy. I

1182
00:51:15,965 --> 00:51:17,525
Speaker 1: didn't know if I wanted to continue to lead. The

1183
00:51:17,605 --> 00:51:19,985
Speaker 1: fire kind of was dimming in some regards, just a

1184
00:51:20,025 --> 00:51:23,525
Speaker 1: little bit of everything. And I think navigating my way

1185
00:51:23,565 --> 00:51:26,825
Speaker 1: through that, figuring out a vision for not just the

1186
00:51:26,885 --> 00:51:30,225
Speaker 1: current season, but the coming season and making some strategic

1187
00:51:30,305 --> 00:51:32,825
Speaker 1: changes out of that. So like we launched a youth

1188
00:51:32,845 --> 00:51:35,545
Speaker 1: conference because it was me going back to the beginning.

1189
00:51:35,565 --> 00:51:37,165
Speaker 2: And what do you call that conference? Movement conference. And

1190
00:51:37,185 --> 00:51:38,445
Speaker 2: you do that pretty much every year now.

1191
00:51:38,545 --> 00:51:40,985
Speaker 1: Every year since the first year was the year.

1192
00:51:41,005 --> 00:51:43,645
Speaker 2: So for those listening who have kids, younger people in

1193
00:51:43,685 --> 00:51:46,134
Speaker 2: your home, this would be something you might want to send,

1194
00:51:46,355 --> 00:51:47,255
Speaker 2: send them to. Yep.

1195
00:51:47,395 --> 00:51:50,035
Speaker 1: So we have a conference every summer in Montana called

1196
00:51:50,075 --> 00:51:53,795
Speaker 1: movement conference. Um, and, we bring in the best speakers

1197
00:51:53,835 --> 00:51:57,275
Speaker 1: and musicians on the earth. I mean, literally, Taya from

1198
00:51:57,295 --> 00:52:01,075
Speaker 1: Hillsong United, Kerry Jobe, Cody Carnes, we've brought in Elevation

1199
00:52:01,115 --> 00:52:05,075
Speaker 1: Rhythms coming this summer. We bring in, you know, Louis

1200
00:52:05,115 --> 00:52:07,225
Speaker 1: Giglio and just all these different speakers. We had your

1201
00:52:07,245 --> 00:52:08,905
Speaker 1: grandkids come out to it for the first time. They'd

1202
00:52:08,945 --> 00:52:10,925
Speaker 1: never had slept in a tent in their lives before.

1203
00:52:11,325 --> 00:52:15,465
Speaker 1: And literally everything's outside because kids are on their phones.

1204
00:52:15,505 --> 00:52:18,005
Speaker 1: They're indoors. And to be outside in the great outdoors

1205
00:52:18,085 --> 00:52:21,255
Speaker 1: is so good for you. So the kids camp outside.

1206
00:52:21,275 --> 00:52:24,005
Speaker 1: They hear all the sermons are outside. One year, Christine

1207
00:52:24,045 --> 00:52:26,444
Speaker 1: came to the closing session in the rain. It dumped.

1208
00:52:26,565 --> 00:52:27,165
Speaker 2: No one moved.

1209
00:52:27,465 --> 00:52:29,765
Speaker 1: Everyone sat outside like when Jesus was preaching and just

1210
00:52:29,805 --> 00:52:32,335
Speaker 1: heard the Bible taught to them outdoors. Eagles are flying by.

1211
00:52:32,355 --> 00:52:32,955
Speaker 2: It's beautiful.

1212
00:52:33,275 --> 00:52:36,165
Speaker 1: So that was one of the things for me of... Hey,

1213
00:52:36,285 --> 00:52:38,705
Speaker 1: what can I do that's significant and just about success?

1214
00:52:38,845 --> 00:52:40,825
Speaker 1: And I think it's reaching young people. I got saved

1215
00:52:40,845 --> 00:52:44,805
Speaker 1: at summer camp, paying that forward. So it's just helping

1216
00:52:44,925 --> 00:52:48,205
Speaker 1: people have a paradigm for the second half of life

1217
00:52:48,385 --> 00:52:50,545
Speaker 1: and get grounded in what they're going through. Because think

1218
00:52:50,565 --> 00:52:53,225
Speaker 1: about it this way. When you go through anything that

1219
00:52:53,245 --> 00:52:55,055
Speaker 1: makes you feel like you're spiraling, it feels like you've

1220
00:52:55,075 --> 00:52:55,935
Speaker 1: smacked into a wall.

1221
00:52:56,105 --> 00:52:56,344
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1222
00:52:56,875 --> 00:52:58,115
Speaker 1: But what if it wasn't a wall? What if it

1223
00:52:58,155 --> 00:53:00,655
Speaker 1: was a stair? Oh. And a chance to take a

1224
00:53:00,675 --> 00:53:04,595
Speaker 1: step up in growth, in walking with Christ, in developing

1225
00:53:04,635 --> 00:53:05,195
Speaker 1: as a person.

1226
00:53:05,215 --> 00:53:05,375
Speaker 2: Right.

1227
00:53:05,925 --> 00:53:09,844
Speaker 1: And hopefully not becoming like Saul. Because Saul, I think,

1228
00:53:09,925 --> 00:53:13,465
Speaker 1: is a classic midlife crisis gone wrong. Here's this young guy, David.

1229
00:53:13,565 --> 00:53:16,905
Speaker 1: He should be pouring oil on that fire of David's zeal.

1230
00:53:17,125 --> 00:53:20,435
Speaker 1: David's never been anything but good to Saul. And yet

1231
00:53:20,495 --> 00:53:23,555
Speaker 1: Saul couldn't stand to hear that song sung. David has

1232
00:53:24,255 --> 00:53:27,135
Speaker 1: slain his tens of thousands, but Saul's only slain his thousands. Well,

1233
00:53:27,155 --> 00:53:29,825
Speaker 1: if you think about it. it's all Saul's kingdom. So

1234
00:53:29,865 --> 00:53:31,645
Speaker 1: a win for David should be a win for Saul,

1235
00:53:32,065 --> 00:53:33,904
Speaker 1: but he didn't see it that way. So I think

1236
00:53:33,945 --> 00:53:36,585
Speaker 1: the second half of life, it's a learning about how

1237
00:53:36,625 --> 00:53:39,884
Speaker 1: to champion those coming after you and be excited about their,

1238
00:53:40,365 --> 00:53:42,955
Speaker 1: and pray, may they go further than I've even gone. Like,

1239
00:53:43,035 --> 00:53:46,654
Speaker 1: like Moses said to Joshua, may all God's children prophesy,

1240
00:53:46,835 --> 00:53:49,714
Speaker 1: not being insecure, not being threatened, not trying to hold

1241
00:53:49,855 --> 00:53:52,175
Speaker 1: on to everything you've got because we're going to leave

1242
00:53:52,215 --> 00:53:53,905
Speaker 1: this world anyway. And that's the other thing too, is,

1243
00:53:54,665 --> 00:53:56,565
Speaker 1: In the book, I talk a lot about a vision

1244
00:53:56,665 --> 00:53:58,645
Speaker 1: for what your death is going to look like. Do

1245
00:53:58,665 --> 00:54:00,745
Speaker 1: you know 72% of Americans don't have a will?

1246
00:54:02,105 --> 00:54:02,425
Speaker 2: Wow.

1247
00:54:02,425 --> 00:54:02,745
Speaker 1: 72%.

1248
00:54:02,745 --> 00:54:04,545
Speaker 2: Why do you keep coming back to the number 72?

1249
00:54:04,545 --> 00:54:06,805
Speaker 2: It makes me nervous.

1250
00:54:06,805 --> 00:54:06,875
Speaker 1: 72%.

1251
00:54:06,875 --> 00:54:08,844
Speaker 2: That is my age. You told me.

1252
00:54:08,915 --> 00:54:09,654
Speaker 1: Do you have a will?

1253
00:54:10,175 --> 00:54:10,555
Speaker 2: Yes, I do.

1254
00:54:10,555 --> 00:54:13,615
Speaker 1: Okay, so think about this. That means that the majority

1255
00:54:13,715 --> 00:54:17,114
Speaker 1: of people... who have kids, don't have a plan for

1256
00:54:17,215 --> 00:54:18,635
Speaker 1: who's going to be their guardian if something were to

1257
00:54:18,655 --> 00:54:20,855
Speaker 1: happen for them. So it's just, we live in denial

1258
00:54:20,895 --> 00:54:21,275
Speaker 1: about death.

1259
00:54:21,295 --> 00:54:21,975
Speaker 2: That's right. That's true.

1260
00:54:22,035 --> 00:54:23,575
Speaker 1: And so in the book, I'm saying, this is the

1261
00:54:23,825 --> 00:54:26,545
Speaker 1: one guaranteed thing you're ever going to do is die.

1262
00:54:27,105 --> 00:54:29,065
Speaker 1: So have a vision for it. Have a plan for it.

1263
00:54:29,105 --> 00:54:32,025
Speaker 1: What can your death look like for the kingdom of God?

1264
00:54:32,125 --> 00:54:32,344
Speaker 2: Wow.

1265
00:54:32,485 --> 00:54:36,465
Speaker 1: Estate planning, prioritizing ministries like Harvest Outreach Ministries in your estate. Right.

1266
00:54:36,935 --> 00:54:39,325
Speaker 1: And having, like, my death is going to be like

1267
00:54:39,385 --> 00:54:41,605
Speaker 1: Samson's death. It's going to do more death, you know,

1268
00:54:41,745 --> 00:54:45,165
Speaker 1: to the enemies of God than my life even did, right?

1269
00:54:45,185 --> 00:54:45,404
Speaker 2: Yes.

1270
00:54:45,685 --> 00:54:46,845
Speaker 1: So even just kind.

1271
00:54:46,745 --> 00:54:48,185
Speaker 2: Of asking some of those hard questions. Now you're making

1272
00:54:48,245 --> 00:54:49,145
Speaker 2: me want to die more quickly.

1273
00:54:49,785 --> 00:54:53,015
Speaker 1: And just using your death to influence what's in your

1274
00:54:53,035 --> 00:54:54,055
Speaker 1: heart and in your calling.

1275
00:54:54,475 --> 00:54:59,575
Speaker 2: That's right. Closing kind of thought. Okay, so when you started,

1276
00:55:00,155 --> 00:55:01,915
Speaker 2: how many years ago did you start preaching?

1277
00:55:02,555 --> 00:55:04,955
Speaker 1: Oh, man. I mean, I preached my first sermon at 14.

1278
00:55:04,955 --> 00:55:09,705
Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. So looking at what you were facing then

1279
00:55:09,785 --> 00:55:12,675
Speaker 2: and what you're facing now, kind of thinking specifically of

1280
00:55:12,735 --> 00:55:16,715
Speaker 2: young people, what would you say has changed and what

1281
00:55:16,755 --> 00:55:19,975
Speaker 2: has remained the same in what young people need to

1282
00:55:20,035 --> 00:55:22,805
Speaker 2: hear and know when you bring the gospel to them

1283
00:55:22,825 --> 00:55:24,065
Speaker 2: or bring the word of God to them?

1284
00:55:24,365 --> 00:55:26,825
Speaker 1: There's not a lot different. I mean, I think there's

1285
00:55:26,845 --> 00:55:30,945
Speaker 1: nothing new under the sun. Maybe the media has brought...

1286
00:55:31,485 --> 00:55:33,805
Speaker 1: so much that young people are questioning a little bit

1287
00:55:33,825 --> 00:55:39,505
Speaker 1: of everything. Where's the truth in it? What's to be trusted?

1288
00:55:40,485 --> 00:55:43,265
Speaker 1: I think the attention span of people is either the

1289
00:55:43,265 --> 00:55:45,465
Speaker 1: 20 seconds of a TikTok video or the three hours

1290
00:55:45,525 --> 00:55:46,525
Speaker 1: of a Joe Rogan episode.

1291
00:55:46,545 --> 00:55:50,105
Speaker 2: Isn't it interesting how all these kids have short attention spans,

1292
00:55:50,145 --> 00:55:55,835
Speaker 2: but podcasting, which we're doing right here, long-form conversations and

1293
00:55:55,875 --> 00:56:00,895
Speaker 2: discussions and lectures and more are so popular. How does

1294
00:56:00,915 --> 00:56:01,235
Speaker 2: that work?

1295
00:56:01,465 --> 00:56:04,245
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, like I said, it's either 20 seconds

1296
00:56:04,305 --> 00:56:07,565
Speaker 1: or three hours, but I think there's a greater sense

1297
00:56:07,945 --> 00:56:10,765
Speaker 1: of what can I trust and see in you? You

1298
00:56:10,785 --> 00:56:12,384
Speaker 1: know what I mean? It's less just about you giving

1299
00:56:12,425 --> 00:56:15,565
Speaker 1: an oration, but do I believe you? Can I sit

1300
00:56:15,585 --> 00:56:18,365
Speaker 1: down and hear from you? Do you understand me? Do

1301
00:56:18,405 --> 00:56:23,285
Speaker 1: I feel seen? I also think the biblical illiteracy is

1302
00:56:23,385 --> 00:56:27,765
Speaker 1: so much different from 20, 30 years ago. The sense

1303
00:56:27,845 --> 00:56:31,485
Speaker 1: of like, hey, you can't just say, As Moses lifted

1304
00:56:31,525 --> 00:56:32,745
Speaker 1: up the serpent.

1305
00:56:33,365 --> 00:56:34,485
Speaker 2: Even Adam and Eve.

1306
00:56:34,585 --> 00:56:37,805
Speaker 1: I think you have to take your time to develop

1307
00:56:37,865 --> 00:56:41,085
Speaker 1: these things in a way that can make the connections

1308
00:56:41,125 --> 00:56:41,905
Speaker 1: for people.

1309
00:56:41,925 --> 00:56:45,365
Speaker 2: Going back to my early days at Calvary Chapel, I

1310
00:56:45,385 --> 00:56:49,125
Speaker 2: was a 17-year-old kid. I was a poor student. I

1311
00:56:49,165 --> 00:56:52,085
Speaker 2: watched television a lot. I had a short attention span.

1312
00:56:53,085 --> 00:56:56,485
Speaker 2: And I go to this church and there was this

1313
00:56:56,645 --> 00:57:00,445
Speaker 2: super electric evangelist Lonnie Frisbee that We came for, and

1314
00:57:00,485 --> 00:57:03,305
Speaker 2: he left shortly after that. And then there was just

1315
00:57:03,325 --> 00:57:06,385
Speaker 2: this older man named Chuck Smith who taught the Bible.

1316
00:57:07,125 --> 00:57:11,225
Speaker 2: But I learned to study. I learned to appreciate those things.

1317
00:57:12,725 --> 00:57:15,165
Speaker 2: And I grew up reading the King James Version, not

1318
00:57:15,225 --> 00:57:18,535
Speaker 2: even the New King James, like King James. It's funny

1319
00:57:18,555 --> 00:57:21,595
Speaker 2: because I still remember verses from 17 years old that

1320
00:57:21,635 --> 00:57:25,665
Speaker 2: I memorized today. Because that King James cadence, I beseech you, therefore,

1321
00:57:25,725 --> 00:57:28,345
Speaker 2: brother and brother, mercy to God, present yourself. You know,

1322
00:57:28,485 --> 00:57:30,965
Speaker 2: I remember the cadence, and it sticks in my memory.

1323
00:57:31,025 --> 00:57:34,605
Speaker 2: But Chuck would always say, people develop an appetite for

1324
00:57:34,645 --> 00:57:37,345
Speaker 2: what you feed them. So I think there's hope, even

1325
00:57:37,385 --> 00:57:40,135
Speaker 2: though maybe the kids are a blank slate. But you

1326
00:57:40,155 --> 00:57:44,195
Speaker 2: brought up something I thought was really important, authenticity. Because,

1327
00:57:44,215 --> 00:57:46,555
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of kids, I think, today, you know,

1328
00:57:46,575 --> 00:57:49,095
Speaker 2: I think we always think in the church, we have

1329
00:57:49,115 --> 00:57:52,515
Speaker 2: to be super cool, super edgy. And there's a place

1330
00:57:52,555 --> 00:57:57,825
Speaker 2: for that. But I think super authentic, super biblical are

1331
00:57:57,905 --> 00:58:01,965
Speaker 2: more important. But I think that sometimes kids are looking

1332
00:58:01,985 --> 00:58:05,105
Speaker 2: for a father figure. Yeah. Because maybe they didn't have

1333
00:58:05,145 --> 00:58:07,875
Speaker 2: a dad. So many are coming from broken homes. You know,

1334
00:58:07,935 --> 00:58:10,515
Speaker 2: Jordan Peterson, I did an interview with him, or he

1335
00:58:10,575 --> 00:58:14,195
Speaker 2: actually interviewed me. And he has reached a whole generation

1336
00:58:14,235 --> 00:58:18,395
Speaker 2: of young people, specifically young men, because he calls them

1337
00:58:18,915 --> 00:58:21,475
Speaker 2: to be responsible for One of the things he's best

1338
00:58:21,495 --> 00:58:23,735
Speaker 2: known for is telling him, make your bed. Like, just

1339
00:58:24,055 --> 00:58:27,155
Speaker 2: be responsible. Be a man. Be masculine.

1340
00:58:27,355 --> 00:58:29,395
Speaker 1: Well, there's some truth to that. Do you know you're

1341
00:58:29,715 --> 00:58:31,855
Speaker 1: less likely to spend money that you don't have on

1342
00:58:31,875 --> 00:58:33,725
Speaker 1: a credit card on a day where you made your bed?

1343
00:58:34,515 --> 00:58:36,745
Speaker 2: Oh, really? Is that true? It's true. Yeah.

1344
00:58:37,025 --> 00:58:40,605
Speaker 1: You make your bed. It's what's called a keystone habit.

1345
00:58:40,665 --> 00:58:43,345
Speaker 1: There was a study that was done where it unlocks

1346
00:58:43,425 --> 00:58:45,985
Speaker 1: better habits all around. Like, okay, so if you get

1347
00:58:46,105 --> 00:58:49,125
Speaker 1: more than five hours of sleep, you're likely to eat

1348
00:58:49,205 --> 00:58:50,465
Speaker 1: fewer calories the next day.

1349
00:58:50,565 --> 00:58:50,845
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

1350
00:58:51,125 --> 00:58:52,745
Speaker 1: So it's like there's little funky things.

1351
00:58:52,765 --> 00:58:54,925
Speaker 2: The problem is when I make the bed, my wife

1352
00:58:55,045 --> 00:58:57,065
Speaker 2: remakes it and she says I didn't do it right.

1353
00:58:57,145 --> 00:58:58,565
Speaker 2: Do I get credit for trying?

1354
00:58:58,585 --> 00:58:59,485
Speaker 1: For you having done it.

1355
00:58:59,645 --> 00:59:00,205
Speaker 2: Yes.

1356
00:59:00,245 --> 00:59:01,165
Speaker 1: It's the first thing you did.

1357
00:59:01,245 --> 00:59:03,035
Speaker 2: I don't even try now because I know she'll just

1358
00:59:03,055 --> 00:59:03,255
Speaker 2: make it.

1359
00:59:03,265 --> 00:59:06,395
Speaker 1: What's that Mark Twain quote? He said, if you have

1360
00:59:06,415 --> 00:59:08,415
Speaker 1: to eat a frog, which I don't know what scenario

1361
00:59:08,515 --> 00:59:09,975
Speaker 1: under which you would have to eat a frog, but

1362
00:59:10,015 --> 00:59:11,335
Speaker 1: if you do have to eat a frog, eat it

1363
00:59:11,415 --> 00:59:13,655
Speaker 1: first thing in the morning because then the rest of

1364
00:59:13,695 --> 00:59:15,395
Speaker 1: the day it's behind you. And it was the worst.

1365
00:59:15,525 --> 00:59:17,385
Speaker 1: worst thing he had to do all day. And he said,

1366
00:59:17,425 --> 00:59:19,245
Speaker 1: if you have to eat two frogs, which this day

1367
00:59:19,285 --> 00:59:21,745
Speaker 1: is getting really weird. He said, pick the ugliest one

1368
00:59:21,785 --> 00:59:24,465
Speaker 1: and eat it first. The point is, do the difficult thing.

1369
00:59:24,485 --> 00:59:27,625
Speaker 1: I think that's why cold plunging is so powerful. You

1370
00:59:27,645 --> 00:59:28,345
Speaker 1: get in that cold plunger?

1371
00:59:28,385 --> 00:59:30,915
Speaker 2: I've seen you do it. Yeah. But I've never done

1372
00:59:30,935 --> 00:59:31,195
Speaker 2: it with you.

1373
00:59:31,215 --> 00:59:31,935
Speaker 1: You need to do it.

1374
00:59:32,515 --> 00:59:33,415
Speaker 2: I don't want to.

1375
00:59:34,015 --> 00:59:36,355
Speaker 1: See, eat the frog. You've got to eat the frog.

1376
00:59:36,575 --> 00:59:37,095
Speaker 1: But you're right.

1377
00:59:37,135 --> 00:59:38,235
Speaker 2: What is the advantage of that?

1378
00:59:38,255 --> 00:59:41,875
Speaker 1: I think the authenticity is a massive factor.

1379
00:59:41,975 --> 00:59:42,455
Speaker 2: This is real.

1380
00:59:42,475 --> 00:59:44,815
Speaker 1: And I think with our grief, with the hard things

1381
00:59:44,855 --> 00:59:47,745
Speaker 1: we face, with the honesty and openness of, hey, this

1382
00:59:47,805 --> 00:59:50,685
Speaker 1: is hard, this is terrible at times, but God's in it.

1383
00:59:50,965 --> 00:59:53,845
Speaker 1: And then not being ashamed to preach the word and

1384
00:59:53,865 --> 00:59:56,065
Speaker 1: give the message and here's the truth and don't water

1385
00:59:56,085 --> 00:59:58,625
Speaker 1: it down. I think they don't want to be soft-pedaled.

1386
00:59:58,685 --> 01:00:00,685
Speaker 1: I think they don't want to be coddled.

1387
01:00:00,765 --> 01:00:02,405
Speaker 2: I think they want to be challenged to.

1388
01:00:02,405 --> 01:00:05,415
Speaker 1: Be called out. And like you said, A fatherless generation

1389
01:00:05,455 --> 01:00:07,915
Speaker 1: does need someone in a place of strength and authority.

1390
01:00:08,455 --> 01:00:10,275
Speaker 1: I think that's part of the reason why Joe Rogan

1391
01:00:10,315 --> 01:00:13,215
Speaker 1: has got the influence he has. You have these young

1392
01:00:13,275 --> 01:00:16,995
Speaker 1: people looking for someone to point them to jujitsu and

1393
01:00:17,135 --> 01:00:18,955
Speaker 1: archery and all these different things.

1394
01:00:19,175 --> 01:00:21,895
Speaker 2: Okay, let's end on a lighter note with some random things.

1395
01:00:22,155 --> 01:00:25,475
Speaker 2: Like what, if you were going to have one last meal,

1396
01:00:25,495 --> 01:00:28,325
Speaker 2: I asked this of my wife and my granddaughter today,

1397
01:00:28,525 --> 01:00:30,345
Speaker 2: if you're going to have one last meal, what would

1398
01:00:30,385 --> 01:00:31,285
Speaker 2: it be? Oh, wow.

1399
01:00:32,245 --> 01:00:33,665
Speaker 1: Which meal? Breakfast, lunch, dinner?

1400
01:00:33,705 --> 01:00:35,325
Speaker 2: Anything. Just this is your last meal.

1401
01:00:36,225 --> 01:00:38,205
Speaker 1: Man, the coffee's got to be super good.

1402
01:00:38,225 --> 01:00:38,985
Speaker 2: You like coffee.

1403
01:00:39,165 --> 01:00:42,025
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's like a random. So coffee's going to

1404
01:00:42,045 --> 01:00:45,305
Speaker 1: be a part of the last meal. But I mean, In-N-Out, double,

1405
01:00:45,345 --> 01:00:47,145
Speaker 1: double animal style chopped chilies.

1406
01:00:47,165 --> 01:00:47,765
Speaker 2: Nothing wrong with that.

1407
01:00:47,785 --> 01:00:50,855
Speaker 1: Let's go animal style fries. Get that diet lemonade just

1408
01:00:50,995 --> 01:00:52,335
Speaker 1: to make me feel a little bit better.

1409
01:00:52,355 --> 01:00:55,395
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a pretty good choice. Yeah. What are like

1410
01:00:55,635 --> 01:00:57,255
Speaker 2: two or three of your favorite films?

1411
01:00:57,935 --> 01:01:02,085
Speaker 1: Ooh. I mean, Gladiator 1. Black Hawk Down.

1412
01:01:02,165 --> 01:01:03,505
Speaker 2: Did you see Gladiator 2?

1413
01:01:03,505 --> 01:01:04,025
Speaker 1: I loved it.

1414
01:01:04,185 --> 01:01:06,345
Speaker 2: Yeah. I loved it. Not as good as one, but good.

1415
01:01:06,545 --> 01:01:08,445
Speaker 1: But it can't be. It can't be. But what I

1416
01:01:08,485 --> 01:01:11,125
Speaker 1: liked is they tried to continue it and not like

1417
01:01:11,225 --> 01:01:13,875
Speaker 1: redo it. Pedro Pascal's character was amazing.

1418
01:01:13,955 --> 01:01:14,875
Speaker 2: Right.

1419
01:01:14,935 --> 01:01:17,895
Speaker 1: Denzel Washington was a scary man. He was a scary,

1420
01:01:17,915 --> 01:01:21,215
Speaker 1: scary man. That guy they created. Roman culture. I'm a

1421
01:01:21,255 --> 01:01:22,355
Speaker 1: sucker for it. So I'm here for it.

1422
01:01:22,355 --> 01:01:24,755
Speaker 2: So it sounds like you like big, they call it

1423
01:01:24,775 --> 01:01:28,885
Speaker 2: the hero's journey. You like the movies, the big epic stories.

1424
01:01:28,905 --> 01:01:29,025
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1425
01:01:29,515 --> 01:01:32,945
Speaker 2: You know, where someone overcomes the hardship and prevails in

1426
01:01:32,965 --> 01:01:33,165
Speaker 2: the end.

1427
01:01:33,185 --> 01:01:34,825
Speaker 1: Hilarious that you said the hero's journey. I have a

1428
01:01:34,885 --> 01:01:37,565
Speaker 1: whole chapter where I unpack the hero's journey and I

1429
01:01:37,645 --> 01:01:40,155
Speaker 1: try in the new book to help people to see

1430
01:01:40,175 --> 01:01:40,955
Speaker 1: themselves as Yoda.

1431
01:01:41,295 --> 01:01:41,515
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1432
01:01:41,595 --> 01:01:43,255
Speaker 1: Everyone wants to be Luke Skywalker.

1433
01:01:43,395 --> 01:01:43,755
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.

1434
01:01:43,795 --> 01:01:45,595
Speaker 1: But the force needs Yoda, right?

1435
01:01:45,615 --> 01:01:45,755
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1436
01:01:46,015 --> 01:01:47,415
Speaker 1: So if we can see in the second half of

1437
01:01:47,455 --> 01:01:50,465
Speaker 1: life ourselves as Yoda and help people on their hero's journey. Yeah.

1438
01:01:51,125 --> 01:01:53,505
Speaker 1: Everything they do is credit to our God.

1439
01:01:53,565 --> 01:01:56,025
Speaker 2: And really, it goes back to the origin story of

1440
01:01:56,085 --> 01:01:58,285
Speaker 2: the Bible. Because you look at the life of David.

1441
01:01:58,365 --> 01:02:02,075
Speaker 2: We can say David's like Luke Skywalker. The prophet Samuel's

1442
01:02:02,095 --> 01:02:05,835
Speaker 2: like Yoda. Exactly. I don't know. Is King Saul like

1443
01:02:06,395 --> 01:02:08,515
Speaker 2: Darth Vader? A little bit different, but there's an opponent.

1444
01:02:08,595 --> 01:02:10,155
Speaker 1: But how great would it have been if Saul would

1445
01:02:10,175 --> 01:02:11,645
Speaker 1: have been like a Yoda to David?

1446
01:02:11,665 --> 01:02:11,955
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

1447
01:02:11,975 --> 01:02:14,165
Speaker 1: He never encouraged him. All the guy ever did was

1448
01:02:14,205 --> 01:02:17,275
Speaker 1: kill your giants, take care of your problems. Yeah. Bring

1449
01:02:17,315 --> 01:02:19,555
Speaker 1: Back Bags of Foreskins, and you're just going to try

1450
01:02:19,575 --> 01:02:20,025
Speaker 1: and kill the guy?

1451
01:02:20,035 --> 01:02:21,885
Speaker 2: Bring Back Bags of Foreskins. I think that should be

1452
01:02:21,945 --> 01:02:23,145
Speaker 2: the title of your next book.

1453
01:02:23,365 --> 01:02:25,205
Speaker 1: Bring Back Bags of Foreskins.

1454
01:02:25,245 --> 01:02:25,425
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1455
01:02:25,685 --> 01:02:27,565
Speaker 1: But what a wild— We'll probably have to edit that out.

1456
01:02:27,605 --> 01:02:29,365
Speaker 1: Is that the wildest? It's in the Bible.

1457
01:02:29,385 --> 01:02:30,405
Speaker 2: Well, I know.

1458
01:02:30,785 --> 01:02:32,625
Speaker 1: It's a literal verse in the Bible.

1459
01:02:32,645 --> 01:02:33,095
Speaker 2: That's true.

1460
01:02:33,475 --> 01:02:35,975
Speaker 1: What's the one text in the Bible that you had

1461
01:02:36,055 --> 01:02:37,615
Speaker 1: never preached, and you were like, I can't do it?

1462
01:02:37,615 --> 01:02:39,975
Speaker 2: Cursed is every man that pisseth against the wall.

1463
01:02:40,195 --> 01:02:44,535
Speaker 1: Dude, I preached the text about Onan, how God smote him,

1464
01:02:44,725 --> 01:02:48,205
Speaker 1: you know? in Genesis, that's a wild text. I was

1465
01:02:48,225 --> 01:02:50,585
Speaker 1: doing a thing on Jesus' genealogy and I was like,

1466
01:02:50,645 --> 01:02:52,095
Speaker 1: I had never preached that before.

1467
01:02:52,745 --> 01:02:55,395
Speaker 2: I know you've had bloopers on the pulpit. I did

1468
01:02:55,475 --> 01:02:58,135
Speaker 2: one a long time ago. It's a diary, fiery darts

1469
01:02:58,175 --> 01:03:00,395
Speaker 2: of the wicked when I said diary farts. That was

1470
01:03:00,415 --> 01:03:02,875
Speaker 2: a long time ago. Once when I was supposed to say,

1471
01:03:02,915 --> 01:03:05,155
Speaker 2: let's pray, I ended the sermon, let's pray. I said,

1472
01:03:05,195 --> 01:03:08,495
Speaker 2: let's pee. But this is recent. I was preaching on David,

1473
01:03:08,915 --> 01:03:12,115
Speaker 2: your favorite character and your favorite story because it was

1474
01:03:12,155 --> 01:03:16,555
Speaker 2: about Bathsheba. And I said, The Bible says Bathsheba was

1475
01:03:16,615 --> 01:03:20,475
Speaker 2: a woman of unusual beauty. But instead I said Bathsheba

1476
01:03:20,515 --> 01:03:24,165
Speaker 2: was a woman of unusual booty. So that's my newest.

1477
01:03:24,445 --> 01:03:27,765
Speaker 1: You blur your words. You say it or you accidentally

1478
01:03:27,905 --> 01:03:30,785
Speaker 1: say a word you don't mean to say. The New

1479
01:03:30,825 --> 01:03:35,795
Speaker 1: Living Translation of 2 Corinthians 4 says fix your gaze

1480
01:03:36,455 --> 01:03:39,915
Speaker 1: on things that cannot be seen. And I think I

1481
01:03:39,955 --> 01:03:42,375
Speaker 1: had been saying it like, hey, you have to fix

1482
01:03:42,395 --> 01:03:43,815
Speaker 1: your gaze. You have to fix your gaze. And my

1483
01:03:43,835 --> 01:03:45,655
Speaker 1: wife was like, what are you? Like, what's wrong with

1484
01:03:45,675 --> 01:03:47,675
Speaker 1: the gays? Why do they need to be fixed? Like,

1485
01:03:48,355 --> 01:03:50,775
Speaker 1: she just was saying, like, the way it came out,

1486
01:03:50,795 --> 01:03:52,595
Speaker 1: it was like I was saying, like, fix your gays.

1487
01:03:52,655 --> 01:03:54,295
Speaker 1: If you have a gay, fix it, you know? Like,

1488
01:03:55,375 --> 01:03:55,975
Speaker 1: fix your gay.

1489
01:03:56,175 --> 01:03:58,695
Speaker 2: The wife will always tell you what no one else

1490
01:03:58,735 --> 01:03:59,895
Speaker 2: will tell you. Is that not true?

1491
01:03:59,935 --> 01:04:02,535
Speaker 1: Yeah. Or she'll be like, you got that wrong. Like,

1492
01:04:02,555 --> 01:04:04,755
Speaker 1: you transposed the thing, you know, whatever. You don't even

1493
01:04:04,775 --> 01:04:05,335
Speaker 1: realize it at the moment.

1494
01:04:05,375 --> 01:04:06,975
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll think that was really great. Then you'll find

1495
01:04:07,095 --> 01:04:08,975
Speaker 2: out you made some mistake.

1496
01:04:09,215 --> 01:04:12,735
Speaker 1: You kept saying whatever instead of Absalom, you know, whatever.

1497
01:04:12,755 --> 01:04:12,895
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1498
01:04:13,875 --> 01:04:14,745
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1499
01:04:14,805 --> 01:04:16,685
Speaker 2: So, and the title of it is?

1500
01:04:16,785 --> 01:04:17,885
Speaker 1: Blessed are the spiraling.

1501
01:04:17,945 --> 01:04:20,745
Speaker 2: Yes. And that's probably going to be an audio book too.

1502
01:04:21,085 --> 01:04:22,505
Speaker 1: It's all done. And that's pretty fun.

1503
01:04:22,525 --> 01:04:23,045
Speaker 2: Did you read it yourself?

1504
01:04:23,065 --> 01:04:25,265
Speaker 1: I did that myself and then did a bonus like

1505
01:04:25,285 --> 01:04:26,955
Speaker 1: hour long Q & A about the process.

1506
01:04:26,975 --> 01:04:27,395
Speaker 2: Oh, I like that.

1507
01:04:27,415 --> 01:04:30,455
Speaker 1: We had an early reader group and they submitted questions.

1508
01:04:30,495 --> 01:04:31,895
Speaker 1: And so that's on the audio book too.

1509
01:04:31,915 --> 01:04:32,995
Speaker 2: Excellent idea.

1510
01:04:33,015 --> 01:04:34,555
Speaker 1: And also it was fun. Like, do you do this?

1511
01:04:34,615 --> 01:04:36,855
Speaker 1: Like riffing a little bit on the audio book? So

1512
01:04:36,915 --> 01:04:39,455
Speaker 1: I would not just do the dry read of the manuscript,

1513
01:04:39,475 --> 01:04:41,525
Speaker 1: but I would also like give background behind the scenes

1514
01:04:41,565 --> 01:04:44,695
Speaker 1: information that maybe the audio... Book listener, am I funny?

1515
01:04:44,715 --> 01:04:49,395
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I can't just read. I always start ad-libbing and,

1516
01:04:49,415 --> 01:04:52,455
Speaker 2: you know, I have to because, you know, when you speak,

1517
01:04:52,895 --> 01:04:56,015
Speaker 2: there's a certain way that one speaks and a certain

1518
01:04:56,055 --> 01:04:58,995
Speaker 2: way that one reads. I mean, when it's written, you

1519
01:04:59,075 --> 01:05:01,125
Speaker 2: read it, but then when you say it, it just

1520
01:05:01,165 --> 01:05:03,485
Speaker 2: feels different and I have to say it the way

1521
01:05:03,565 --> 01:05:05,385
Speaker 2: I say it. I don't know if that probably made

1522
01:05:05,425 --> 01:05:08,525
Speaker 2: no sense what I just said, but, you know, every

1523
01:05:08,645 --> 01:05:13,685
Speaker 2: form of communication has its own interesting nuances and, and

1524
01:05:13,745 --> 01:05:16,005
Speaker 2: I don't always know what I'm doing exactly, but I

1525
01:05:16,045 --> 01:05:18,405
Speaker 2: just know, no, that I can't do it this way.

1526
01:05:18,425 --> 01:05:19,425
Speaker 2: I have to do it that way.

1527
01:05:19,505 --> 01:05:22,085
Speaker 1: When I was doing the audio, because everyone fast forwards

1528
01:05:22,125 --> 01:05:24,505
Speaker 1: audio books, they like do it at double speed or whatever. Right.

1529
01:05:24,545 --> 01:05:24,725
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1530
01:05:25,085 --> 01:05:26,785
Speaker 1: So when I did the last supper on the moon

1531
01:05:26,825 --> 01:05:28,685
Speaker 1: audio book, I was like, you're probably listening to this

1532
01:05:28,945 --> 01:05:32,045
Speaker 1: at 2.0 speed. So to mess with you, I'm going

1533
01:05:32,065 --> 01:05:35,085
Speaker 1: to say the next chapter at 0.5 speed. So I

1534
01:05:35,105 --> 01:05:39,575
Speaker 1: like really slow down, you know, the next two paragraphs

1535
01:05:39,875 --> 01:05:40,595
Speaker 1: just to mess with them.

1536
01:05:40,825 --> 01:05:41,035
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1537
01:05:41,165 --> 01:05:41,665
Speaker 1: That's pretty good.

1538
01:05:41,975 --> 01:05:44,125
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I just pray you keep doing what

1539
01:05:44,165 --> 01:05:47,345
Speaker 2: you're doing. And I know God has great plans for

1540
01:05:47,365 --> 01:05:51,785
Speaker 2: you in your future. And I love that verse, Jeremiah 29, 11.

1541
01:05:51,785 --> 01:05:55,025
Speaker 2: In fact, coming back to my son, Christopher, you know,

1542
01:05:55,165 --> 01:05:58,145
Speaker 2: I had it inscribed on my watch that I gave

1543
01:05:58,225 --> 01:06:00,475
Speaker 2: to him that he was wearing when he went to

1544
01:06:00,535 --> 01:06:03,895
Speaker 2: be with the Lord. And as you know, Jeremiah 29, 11,

1545
01:06:03,895 --> 01:06:05,795
Speaker 2: the Lord says, I know the thoughts that I think

1546
01:06:05,835 --> 01:06:08,815
Speaker 2: towards you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not

1547
01:06:08,855 --> 01:06:10,655
Speaker 2: of evil to give you a future and a hope.

1548
01:06:11,155 --> 01:06:14,765
Speaker 2: And I remember when I read that after he died,

1549
01:06:15,035 --> 01:06:18,345
Speaker 2: they gave me a plastic bag. And in a plastic bag,

1550
01:06:18,405 --> 01:06:23,445
Speaker 2: it says wallet, his car keys, and this watch. And

1551
01:06:23,545 --> 01:06:26,965
Speaker 2: I just couldn't believe this is all I have from him.

1552
01:06:27,585 --> 01:06:29,435
Speaker 2: And I look at that watch, and I flipped it

1553
01:06:29,495 --> 01:06:32,255
Speaker 2: over and saw that inscription. And I thought, to be honest,

1554
01:06:32,335 --> 01:06:35,115
Speaker 2: I said, well, where's the future and the hope? And

1555
01:06:35,175 --> 01:06:38,555
Speaker 2: I thought, well, the future and the hope ultimately is heaven, right?

1556
01:06:39,005 --> 01:06:41,185
Speaker 2: But there's a future and a hope in this life, too.

1557
01:06:41,845 --> 01:06:43,865
Speaker 2: And I like that verse that says, the lines have

1558
01:06:43,965 --> 01:06:47,665
Speaker 2: fallen in pleasant places. That's kind of King James. But

1559
01:06:47,935 --> 01:06:48,875
Speaker 2: I like the way that's said.

1560
01:06:48,895 --> 01:06:49,935
Speaker 1: Pleasant places is nice.

1561
01:06:50,075 --> 01:06:52,215
Speaker 2: I like the way that's said. A probably more modern

1562
01:06:52,235 --> 01:06:54,955
Speaker 2: translation would put it differently. But the idea is that

1563
01:06:55,335 --> 01:06:59,285
Speaker 2: God is ultimately in control. And he is, as we

1564
01:06:59,345 --> 01:07:02,645
Speaker 2: talked about earlier, working all things together for our good

1565
01:07:02,705 --> 01:07:06,515
Speaker 2: and his glory. And I know that God has wonderful

1566
01:07:06,555 --> 01:07:09,055
Speaker 2: things in store for you. And I just pray he'll

1567
01:07:09,075 --> 01:07:11,495
Speaker 2: continue to bless you and use you. And thanks for

1568
01:07:11,535 --> 01:07:15,035
Speaker 2: your friendship to me, to our family, to both of

1569
01:07:15,155 --> 01:07:18,315
Speaker 2: my sons and the impact you have had on them.

1570
01:07:19,235 --> 01:07:21,215
Speaker 2: And pleasure to be your friend. Likewise.

1571
01:07:21,355 --> 01:07:22,035
Speaker 1: Always a pleasure.

1572
01:07:22,195 --> 01:07:24,315
Speaker 2: Never a chore. That's one of your sayings.

1573
01:07:24,435 --> 01:07:25,235
Speaker 1: It's a catchphrase.

1574
01:07:25,275 --> 01:07:27,055
Speaker 2: You've been using that for a while. Yeah.

1575
01:07:27,245 --> 01:07:29,145
Speaker 1: Well, you've meant the world to me. You've been another

1576
01:07:29,165 --> 01:07:30,785
Speaker 1: father to me, father figure to me.

1577
01:07:31,965 --> 01:07:32,405
Speaker 2: Example.

1578
01:07:32,895 --> 01:07:37,365
Speaker 1: I've loved getting access to you, getting to see you

1579
01:07:37,405 --> 01:07:40,425
Speaker 1: up close. You're more impressive up close than you are

1580
01:07:40,785 --> 01:07:43,345
Speaker 1: as a preacher. And that's saying a lot because you

1581
01:07:43,365 --> 01:07:46,385
Speaker 1: can preach too. But you're a great friend. You're kind.

1582
01:07:46,405 --> 01:07:50,885
Speaker 1: You're generous. You've been a Yoda to me for many

1583
01:07:50,925 --> 01:07:55,375
Speaker 1: a year. You actually used to sign off your emails regularly.

1584
01:07:56,355 --> 01:07:58,515
Speaker 1: I think I called you Obi-Wan Kenobi, and you called

1585
01:07:58,535 --> 01:08:04,495
Speaker 1: yourself Obese Wan Kenobi. We just make nerdy jokes in

1586
01:08:04,535 --> 01:08:07,385
Speaker 1: our email signatures. You've been such a friend for such

1587
01:08:07,405 --> 01:08:08,405
Speaker 1: a long time, so thank you.

1588
01:08:08,965 --> 01:08:09,305
Speaker 2: Thank you.