1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life audio. 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 2: Well, as we began to wrap up our series on 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,159 Speaker 2: Jews and Christians Learning to Relate, we wanted to have 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: a discussion today about some of the most common misunderstandings 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,159 Speaker 2: between the two communities. So stay with us, We'll be 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 2: right back. 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: Let's take a break and hear a message from one 8 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: of our sponsors. Welcome to the Israel Answer Series, Connecting 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: Israel the Bible, and you join Susan Michael as she 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: explores timely issues and current events from a scriptural perspective 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: to equip the Christian world with a balance and biblical response. 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: Be sure to subscribe for future episodes which will ignite 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: your faith and bring the Bible to life in your 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: everyday world. Now, let's join Susan with your israel answers. 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: Well, I hope you've been enjoying our series on Jews 16 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 2: and Christians Learning to Relate and as we have interviewed 17 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: a number of pioneers, and one of those pioneers was 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: Jonathan Feldstein, who is the founder and president of the 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 2: Genesis one two three Foundation. We had a really interesting 20 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: conversation as he shared his story of decades of Jewish 21 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 2: Christian relations coming from the perspective of an Orthodox Jew 22 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: who lives in Israel. And if you have did not 23 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: get to hear that interview, we're going to link to 24 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: it in today's show notes so that you can get 25 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 2: to know more about him and his story. But as 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 2: I began to plan for the wrap up of this series, 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: I thought, I want to have Jonathan back so that 28 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: we can just have an informal conversation talking about some 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: of the common misunderstandings that we've all alluded to in 30 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: our stories. The various pioneers have alluded to these things, 31 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: but I thought it might be helpful for us to 32 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: talk about them a little bit more in depth. And 33 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 2: we have some misunderstandings on the Jewish side, and we 34 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: have some misunderstandings on the Jewish side, the Christian side, 35 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: and the Jewish side. So Jonathan, I want to welcome 36 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 2: you back to the Out of Zion podcast and thank 37 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: you for taking time out of your day to have 38 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 2: this conversation. 39 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: With always a pleasure a to have conversations like this, 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: and be even more so to do it with you, Susan. 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,639 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. So I'm 42 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: going to start with a common misunderstanding that we encounter, 43 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: and then I'll let you bring up one, Jonathan. I 44 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 2: won't just go back and forth and see where we 45 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: go with this. So I know that one of the 46 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: common misunderstandings that I had when I first went to 47 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: Israel many many many years ago as a young woman, 48 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: was not understanding that Judaism is a vibrant faith. And 49 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: in a lot of our preaching and teaching in churches, 50 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: we sort of like to just pose Christianity to Judaism 51 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 2: and the Old Testament to the New and we bring 52 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 2: up these comparisons, and it's sort of like, well, Judaism 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 2: is about legalism and the law, and so it's a 54 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: dead religion, whereas Christianity is more about grace and forgiveness, 55 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: and it's more alive. And when I went to Israel, 56 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: I realized how that Judaism is very much and alive faith, 57 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: and there are really very sincere believers with a very 58 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 2: very sincere and active relationship with the God of the 59 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: Jewish people. 60 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 3: And so. 61 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: I see that as something I'm often addressing and teaching 62 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: that no, Judaism and what we see in the Old 63 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,839 Speaker 2: Testament is just as much about love and forgiveness and 64 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 2: mercy and grace. It's built into the law, it's built 65 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: into everything that God established in the Old Testament, and 66 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: we do see it also in the New Testament, but 67 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: it's in both. It's the same God, the same character. 68 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: And so how would you what would you like to 69 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: add to that, Jonathan? 70 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 3: Well, well, first of all, you're right, and people who 71 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 3: who don't it's perfect that we're speaking about misunderstandings, because 72 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: misunderstandings can be interpreted as a difference or just a 73 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 3: lack of understanding. And there is a lack of understanding, 74 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 3: because why would you know when you are growing up 75 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 3: unless you're completely engrossed with Jews and Judaism. Or myself, 76 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 3: I grow up in New Jersey, why would I know 77 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 3: much about Christians and Christianity unless I'm having conversations like 78 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 3: we are having now, and that you and I have 79 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 3: been blessed throughout the last decades to be able to have. So. Sure, 80 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: it's very easy to look at from a Christian perspective 81 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,559 Speaker 3: and think that Jews and Judaism is very legalistic. Well 82 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: it is. But what a lot of Christians don't understand 83 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: is that it's through that, first of all, that's preserved 84 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 3: us as a people. But second of all, all of 85 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 3: these legalisms, at least how I look at it and 86 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 3: how I experience it in my life, connect me deeper 87 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 3: with God. So when we speak about Shabbat, okay, a 88 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 3: lot of Christians will understand that Shabbat is the day 89 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 3: that we don't work. But what does that mean? And 90 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: I'm not going to go into that right now. We 91 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 3: can have that conversation another time, but every little time. 92 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 3: Oh here's a great story. I don't know if I 93 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: ever shared it with you. When I had a fire 94 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: in my house a few years ago on a Friday night, 95 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 3: it was going through my mind about how to deal 96 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 3: with the fire on Shabbat, And of course at the moment, 97 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: I was concerned about protecting my family, but I was 98 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 3: doing so through my relationship with God, through how God 99 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 3: how we interpret that. So, yeah, unless you have an 100 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 3: opportunity to come to Israel, to really experience Israel, Israeli life, 101 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 3: or do Shabbat in a community overseas and get to know, 102 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 3: which is something we spoke about last time, get to 103 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 3: know Jews and the Jewish culture, it's legitimate to think 104 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: that we're only legalistic, But then, of course I know 105 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 3: some Christians, many Christians in fact, people say, well, they're 106 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 3: not under the law. Okay, great, Well are they going 107 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 3: around committing adultery? Are they going around murdering people, not 108 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 3: honoring their parents and taking God's name in vain? Also know, 109 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 3: and these are things that we have to kind of 110 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 3: square the circle as far as how we really understand 111 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 3: what that legalism is about. But no, Judaism is much 112 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 3: much more. And you're it's so wonderful you understand that, 113 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 3: and so wonderful that you help other people understand that. 114 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: Well, I know, one of the things that I realized 115 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: was the role of the law. So in a lot 116 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: of Christian teaching, the laws look down upon as legalistic, 117 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: and we're not under that. And yet the law the 118 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: Jewish people see it as a gift that was given 119 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: to them, and that they take their responsibility very seriously 120 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: to obey the law. And therefore the whole idea of 121 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: building a fence around the law. So if it says 122 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: don't work on the Sabbath, fine and good, but what 123 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: does that mean? And that's where the rabbis began to interpret, well, 124 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: what does it mean? What can you do? What can 125 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: you not do? Because they don't want to violate what 126 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: God told them to do, correct, and they feel a 127 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 2: special responsibility almost almost on behalf of the world, but 128 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: for sure on behalf of the Jewish people, that they 129 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: have a responsibility to be faithful to God and obey 130 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: what He told them to do. And it's a little 131 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: bit of a different take on the law than what 132 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 2: we get a lot of times in our churches, and. 133 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 3: Even through something as remote as I do every Friday, 134 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 3: late afternoon or evening, depending on when Shabbat begins. And 135 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: that's I guess it's easy to fall back on the 136 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 3: law and relate to Shabbat because there's so many laws 137 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 3: that are connected to Shabbat. But there are many many 138 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: laws that we follow on a regular basis. But when 139 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: I flip a switch and all of the lights in 140 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 3: my house go on a timer, it's not just a 141 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 3: mechanical thing legalistic, because I don't I choose, according to 142 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 3: my understanding of Judaism, not to turn lights on and 143 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 3: off on Saturday on the Sabbath. But when I'm doing that, I, 144 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 3: through that little action, am honoring God, AM honoring the 145 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: way we interpret it. Of course, two thousand years ago, 146 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 3: when Jesus observed Shabbad and talked about all the legalisms 147 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 3: of Shabad and had rabbinic debates with people here. In 148 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 3: the first century Israel, the legalisms were different because they 149 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 3: didn't have electricity, because they didn't have elevators and lights 150 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 3: and how to and abilities to keep food hot for 151 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 3: twenty four hours or anything of that nature. So we 152 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 3: have modern interpretations. But for me, every time I do 153 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 3: a little action, I try to make sure to remind 154 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 3: myself that it's not a mechanical thing, but it's really 155 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: my connection with God. 156 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's beautiful. Well, Johnson, do you want to share 157 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: a misunderstanding for us to discuss. 158 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: They're just a few, you know, a lot of Jews 159 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 3: really don't understand one of the things that Actually it 160 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: just came up again this week. I shared an article 161 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 3: with a friend of an article that I had written. 162 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: A Jewish woman who's super smart and grew up in 163 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 3: the South around Christians. She's not ignorant either, and she 164 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 3: wrote back to me that she understands Christians because Christians 165 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 3: only want Jews to come back to Israel in order 166 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 3: that Jesus will return through whether it's armageddon. We can 167 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 3: talk about end times. But the motivation of Christian support 168 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 3: of Israel and our returning like I did eighteen years ago, 169 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: is simply to expedite, hasten Jesus's return. And that's a 170 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 3: tremendous misunderstanding, not exclusive, but maybe you can address that. 171 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: Yes, because actually the Bible doesn't say that, and I've 172 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 2: heard it many many times over the years, that it's 173 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: required that all the Jews return to Israel so Jesus 174 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: can come back, and I've been told that. Actually there 175 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 2: is a branch of Orthodox Judaism that believes that, but 176 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: it's not taught in Christian churches. There's great debate as 177 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: to whether anything is required to happen before Jesus returns, 178 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: and there is a school of thought in Christianity that 179 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: says he could return at any moment, so there is 180 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: nothing that is required to take place. There's others that 181 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 2: quote a verse that says that the Gospel will go 182 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 2: out into all the nations and then the end will come. 183 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: So maybe we have to be reaching all the unreached 184 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: people groups in the world with the Gospel before Jesus 185 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: will return. Only when you begin to delve in and 186 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: deal with the prophecies towards the Jewish people and about Israel. 187 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: Do you begin to see that, well, maybe the Jews 188 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: do need to be back in the land, because Jesus 189 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 2: isn't going to return to a gentile Jerusalem. I mean, 190 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 2: He's going to return to Jewish Jerusalem. So maybe there 191 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: is some requirement. But I will say it's hardly ever 192 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: discussed in churches. It's never talked about in that way. 193 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: And so this really is a very big misunderstanding that 194 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 2: this is like a big requirement and we all know it, 195 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: and we're all teaching it, and that's what this is 196 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: all about. 197 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: And it comes across even more as a requirement. It 198 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 3: comes across as a nefarious ulterior motive. And by the way, 199 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, of course we disagree on Jesus, 200 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 3: and that's fine, and that's a much bigger conversation, but 201 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 3: we all want Messiah, and there's nothing wrong with all 202 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: of the Jewish people being here in the land. But 203 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 3: Jews look at that as Christian support of it is 204 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:05,439 Speaker 3: somehow being uxmanships as a victory over the Jewish people, 205 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 3: and we interpret it differently, but we're really looking ultimately 206 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: for the same thing. 207 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: That's right. So I'll bring up another misunderstanding that I 208 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 2: find it goes along with this, and that is that 209 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: when I speak to Jewish audiences, I find that they're 210 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 2: always concerned about these end time prophecies and that that's 211 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: really why we're doing this. And some of the end 212 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: time prophecies are hard, and it may be about war, 213 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: it may be about an armageddon, it may be you know, 214 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 2: and they're like, this is why you really support us. 215 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 2: It's because you want two thirds of us wiped out 216 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: in a war or this kind of thing. And what 217 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 2: I find is that actually they're totally ignorant to the 218 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 2: fact that most of those scriptures are from the Jewish Bible. 219 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: They're from the Hebrews scriptures, the Hebrew prophets, and that 220 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: if somebody is talking about a war, they're usually going 221 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: to be quoting out of Zechariah or one of the 222 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 2: Hebrew prophets. And then it's confirmed in the New Testament 223 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: in the Book of Revelation, which is full of visual 224 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: it's not it's not concrete. It's like there's a lot 225 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: of interpretation that you have to bring into the Book 226 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: of Revelation to understand what it's what it's really conveying. 227 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: It's in visions and this kind of thing. And so, 228 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: but the more concrete verses are found in the Hebrew prophets, 229 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: and and and another one is that, well you believe 230 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: that we're all going to become Christian, Well, your Bible 231 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: says that we're all going to be worshiping the God 232 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 2: of Israel. And it just so happens. We believe that 233 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: Jesus is the Jewish Messiah is. But yeah, but it's 234 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: your scriptures that are saying that, right. And I remember 235 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: one time I spoke to a Jewish group and afterwards, 236 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 2: an elderly man came up to me and he was 237 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: completely blown away. He had no idea that most of 238 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 2: the Christian Bible was actually the Hebrew Bible. He didn't 239 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 2: even know it. And therefore a lot of Jewish secular 240 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: Jews don't even know what their own Bible says, so 241 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 2: they don't know that we're actually quoting their Bible. 242 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: You really nailed it on the head. And you use 243 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: the word ignorant, and I know you didn't use it. 244 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 3: Ignorant can become a pejorative word. It's not, but people 245 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 3: who are not aware of what the Hebrew Bible, the 246 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 3: Torah says, don't know, and and I think that we 247 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: overall don't dwell on end Times theology or what's going 248 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 3: to happen. And and there aren't a lot of Jews 249 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 3: who run around, I think much more a Christian phenomena 250 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: run around saying, well, we're in the end times, at 251 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 3: the beginning of the end times, and we have to prepare. 252 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 3: And there are some people who are brazen enough to 253 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: say that they know when that's happening. And that's I'm 254 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 3: sure that there are Jews who do that, but but 255 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 3: it's not something that's very common. So when you have 256 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 3: Jews who are secular predominantly, who don't know their Bible, 257 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 3: our Bible, and you're confronted with Christians who understand it 258 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 3: and understand where it comes from, and it connects directly 259 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: to us and Israel, and it's not, by the way, 260 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 3: it's not real comfortable to talk about what's happening. The 261 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: war from the North, and we're seeing Russia threatening everybody 262 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 3: right now. None of that's comfortable. But clearly, clearly there's 263 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: a great misunderstanding about from a Jewish perspective, about what 264 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 3: Christians believe and where they're getting that from. Which is which? Again, 265 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 3: it's met probably a matter of interpretation, but we're we're 266 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 3: not that far off in terms of really what we're understanding. No. 267 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: I remember watching a video one time of a Hasidic 268 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 2: rabbi teaching, and he had a whole auditorium full of 269 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 2: young men listening to him, and they played this eerie 270 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 2: music and he's referring to some of these scriptures out 271 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: of Zachariah in time and things that are going to happen. 272 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: Of course, it was with his interpretation, which was really 273 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 2: quite drastic, I have to say, And it's no different 274 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,439 Speaker 2: than what a lot of our Christian preachers preach based 275 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: on those same scriptures. The thing that we might disagree 276 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: on is just the identity of that Missianic one. But 277 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 2: the scriptures are in the same Bible that we both have. 278 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 2: And you're right, I don't hear a lot of rabbis 279 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 2: teaching on those end time prophecies. No, maybe they should start. 280 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 3: And maybe they should start well at least so we 281 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 3: should know. But the challenge we do know. But the challenge, 282 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 3: of course is that the people who are less knowledgeable 283 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 3: of their own Bible, of their own Scripture of what 284 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 3: that means. Are not getting those biblical teachings anyway. So 285 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 3: I'm praying that people will come back to the root 286 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 3: of what we need to do, because ultimately, I do 287 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: believe that we, through our personal actions. This is a digression, 288 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 3: but through our personal actions, have the ability to hasten 289 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 3: the Messiah's arrival and uh, and that's what we all want, 290 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 3: and that's that's our responsibility individually and as a Jewish people. 291 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: Let's take a break and hear a message from one 292 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: of our sponsors. Welcome back to the Out of Zion 293 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: podcast with Susan Michael. 294 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit more about motives. So 295 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: I've I've read and heard accusations that, you know, our 296 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 2: motives are really anti Semitic, that we want to we 297 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 2: want to get all the Jews back to Israel, so 298 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: two thirds of them will die. I mean, that's horrible. 299 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 2: I've heard less vitriol accusations that we just want to, uh, 300 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 2: get the Jews back to Israel's so they're all going 301 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 2: to become Christian, right, And and then I've heard that 302 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 2: you know this and that, and when in reality, our 303 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: motive just because a person believes something is going to happen, 304 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that that is the motivation for what they're 305 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 2: doing today. 306 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 3: I'll give an example. 307 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 2: Our organization is so involved in ali On and helping 308 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: bring the Jews back home to Israel to make it 309 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: their homeland. And so we're helping today with the Jews 310 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: of Ethiopia. We helped with the lost tribe of Manessa 311 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 2: in India, we're helping now with the Ukrainian refugees from 312 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 2: the Russian Jews. We've been doing this for what twenty 313 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 2: five thirty years now? But what is our motive? Is 314 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: our motive because we have some bad motive that or 315 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: it's all about end time events, and the answer is no. 316 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 2: Our motive is that, first of all, we see God's 317 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 2: hand at work in this, and if he's busy at 318 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,360 Speaker 2: work bringing his people back to their land, we want 319 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 2: to be involved. Basically, we just want to be involved 320 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: in it. But secondly, there are prophecies in the Hebrew 321 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 2: scriptures that say the Gentiles will assist in this return, 322 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 2: so we feel we're called to do this correct and 323 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,959 Speaker 2: that's a very strong motivation that we are called to 324 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 2: assist based on the Hebrew scriptures, and none of these 325 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: are bad motives whatsoever. It's we see God blessing the 326 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: Jewish people, we want to bless them. We also see 327 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: in Genesis one two three, as you call your foundation, 328 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: or Genesis twelve three, that God promises he'll bless us 329 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 2: for blessing his people. And those really are the main 330 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 2: motives that I see in Christians involved in this work. 331 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: Well, I agree with you because I see that, but 332 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 3: most Jews. When I say most Jews, I really do 333 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 3: believe that it's most though I might be statistically wrong. 334 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 3: Most Jews don't understand that. But it's fascinating and completely 335 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 3: appropriate that you use the example that's prophetic of our return. 336 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 3: You didn't talk about Christians participating in the startup nation, 337 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 3: another tremendous miracle, and not that, not that that that's 338 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: a bad thing God. God says in many different ways, 339 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 3: in different places that when we return or we have returned, 340 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: the land will prosper again. And it's prospering in so 341 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 3: many ways. But it's actually through the prophetic return that 342 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 3: you are are partnering with something that God has promised. Specifically, 343 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 3: he didn't promise he was going to turn Israel into 344 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,399 Speaker 3: the startup nation and We're going to have what the 345 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: second hot highest number of startups on the on the 346 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 3: Stock Exchange. Those are all amazing realizations of that. But yes, 347 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 3: there's a lot of misunderstanding from a Jewish perspective and 348 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 3: from a Christian perspective, I think there's a there's a 349 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 3: flip side which is still that I can't quantify it. Many, 350 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 3: maybe most Christians still believe that we do need to 351 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 3: accept Jesus in order in order for our own individual salvation, 352 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,679 Speaker 3: and that that's therefore a motive of all relationships. That 353 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 3: Jews will look at anything that you and I are 354 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 3: doing individually collectively, I see EJ and many many others 355 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 3: as being the sole motivation. And I don't you phrased 356 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 3: it so well a moment ago, But I can't rephrase 357 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 3: what you just said. There are people who may believe 358 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 3: that individually. A matter of fact, it hosts a friend 359 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 3: of mine who I just hosted on my podcast Inspiration 360 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 3: from Zion, said was really actually striking to me. He said, 361 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 3: I still I don't think that we need to convert 362 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 3: the Jews, but I think the Jews are missing something 363 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 3: by not having a relationship with Jesus. He said that 364 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 3: very sensitive, sensitively, and it was a conversation that we had. 365 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,159 Speaker 3: But maybe you can respond because I'm not in the 366 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 3: conversations all the time among Christians about our salvation. 367 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 2: Well, it's a really important point because the fact that 368 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 2: we're called evangelical Christians for the Jewish people, they interpret 369 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 2: that to mean that we are all evangelist, and even 370 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 2: in Hebrew, the term has been translated into Hebrew as 371 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 2: evangelist steem, which when an Israeli then converts that to English, 372 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 2: they call us all evangelists. And I'm always like, no, 373 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 2: that's a different word. An evangelist is one who does evangelism, 374 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,719 Speaker 2: and evangelical is one who believes certain things. And so 375 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: there's four pillars of evangelicalism, and one is the authority 376 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: of the Bible. That's why we're always quoting the Bible. 377 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 2: Secondly is that we then hold to the key doctrines 378 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: of the Bible. Thirdly is that we believe in salvation 379 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 2: through Jesus alone, and then fourthly that we believe in 380 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: the importance of sharing the good News of Jesus with 381 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 2: the world. So the Jewish community interprets all of that 382 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: as an evangelical Christian is all about converting me to Christianity, 383 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 2: and therefore they're seen as the enemy because of what 384 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:35,959 Speaker 2: we believe. And so, yes, we believe in the importance 385 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 2: of sharing this good news with everyone, but doesn't mean 386 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: we believe in ramming it down anybody's throat. It doesn't 387 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 2: mean we believe in tricking anybody into converting, and it 388 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that that is the sole motivation for everything 389 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 2: that we do in life. But yes, Jesus was a 390 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 2: great bless is a great blessing to me, and I'm 391 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: so grateful for what he did in my life, and 392 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 2: I would want everyone to have that blessing and to 393 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: have that great experience. But it doesn't mean that I'm 394 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 2: going to misuse that and make it just a soul 395 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: motivation for everything I do for Israel and the Jewish people. 396 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 3: Right, you know, I want to share something. You always 397 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 3: speak so authoritatively and sensitively. But I had a friend 398 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 3: who unfortunately died in the last year, and every time 399 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 3: I was with her, she would tell me, right then, Jonathan, 400 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 3: you need to get down on your hands knees and 401 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,400 Speaker 3: accept Jesus to be safe. And she did it out 402 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: of love. See that's the other thing that Jews don't understand. 403 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 3: It's almost as if it's sort of like a victory 404 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 3: Christians are trying to have a victory over Jews. It's 405 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 3: still uncomfortable, but I understood, and I remember visiting with 406 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 3: another friend who said, but of course we want all 407 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 3: Jews to have a relationship with Jesus, because that's how 408 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 3: we believe that that's the path of salvation, now only 409 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 3: path of salvation. And we disagree on that. But when 410 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 3: at least a Jewish person understands that it's coming from 411 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,400 Speaker 3: a position of love, to me, that's disarming. I can 412 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 3: have a conversation with somebody as compared to somebody who 413 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 3: is just trying to convert me and take me away 414 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: from the traditions that I live now that are thousands 415 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 3: of years old. It's a terrible misunderstanding. It's exacerbated by it. 416 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 3: There are individuals whose soul raison deetra is to convert Jews. 417 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,360 Speaker 3: There are individuals who ram it down their throats, our 418 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 3: throats everywhere, and there's not everyone who I think, and 419 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 3: maybe it's not a nice word, are enlightened as you 420 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 3: are in terms of the understanding of that. But when 421 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 3: we have these conversations. It's creates understanding albeit them a differences. 422 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 2: Well, I do know that a lot of Christians, you know, 423 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 2: they may go to Israel for their first trip. They're 424 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: brand new to this. They don't realize how the Jewish 425 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 2: people do see Christianity and see Jesus. And so for us, 426 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: it's like this wonderful thing in our life, and we're 427 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 2: so excited about it, and you know, we'll share freely 428 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 2: about it. We don't understand the history of Christian anti 429 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,360 Speaker 2: Semitism and that the Jewish people are looking at us 430 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: through a certain prism or through lenses of that history. 431 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: And so we see Jesus as this wonderful thing, but 432 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: they see, they interpreted history that Jesus brings bigotry and hatred. 433 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 2: Now that's a shocking thing for a Christian to realize. 434 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: And it's because not because Jesus, he certainly did not 435 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 2: bring hatred or bigotry, but his children did. The Church 436 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: brought it into their theology and taught contempt of the 437 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: Jewish people. And only once we understand that history do 438 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: we understand how that there are two completely opposite views 439 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 2: of who Jesus was and what Christianity is even all about. 440 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 3: Well, it's funny you say that, Susan because it's not 441 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 3: exclusive to non religious or secular Jews. But it's ironic 442 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 3: that among secular Jews who don't really know their Bible, 443 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 3: they do know this bad history as it relates to 444 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 3: the Church and what's been done in the name of 445 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 3: Jesus to us over thousands of years, and so we, yeah, 446 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 3: we bring that baggage along with us, and it's shocking. 447 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 3: I truthfuly love having conversations with Christians about this, not 448 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 3: God forbid, not to make anyone feel bad, but understanding 449 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 3: where we're coming from and why why there's a view 450 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 3: of suspicion about all these things that were discussing, but 451 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 3: specifically I wanted to share one more thing, one thing 452 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 3: that always stuck with me. Years ago, I was watching 453 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 3: a video online. It was probably around Yamha Showah, the 454 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 3: day we commemorate the murder of six million Jews on 455 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: the Holocaust, and I was watching a video of an old, 456 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 3: elderly Jewish woman who returned to her town in Poland 457 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 3: to visit to have some sort of closure. I don't 458 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 3: remember the details. The thing that struck me is that 459 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 3: she was walking near the church in her town. She 460 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: crossed the street naturally, she didn't even think about it. 461 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 3: And then she narrated, I wish I could find this 462 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 3: video again. She narrated how as a child she understood 463 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 3: that the church was a dangerous place for Jews and 464 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 3: they were always taught to cross the street and stay 465 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 3: fought as far away from the church as possible. And 466 00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 3: of course she met the physical church, but what was 467 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 3: eminating from the church. 468 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: And this is in our generation. We're not talking about 469 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: five hundred years ago or a thousand years ago, correct, 470 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 2: this is within this century. And that's it's just shocking 471 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 2: to realize that, and it's something that we do need 472 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: to overcome in this relationship. Well, Jonathan, we're running out 473 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 2: of time, But do you have one last area, one 474 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 2: last misunderstanding we'd like to discuss before we close it out? 475 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 3: Well, actually, I think maybe if we go back to 476 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 3: the Bible, it's a question of how we read it now. 477 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 3: It's very normal, I think for Christians to think and 478 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 3: I have conversations very organically like this with people who 479 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 3: want to understand who I am and what I believe, 480 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 3: but can't begin to unless we have these conversations and 481 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 3: so and so. I think that there's a predominance of 482 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 3: Christians who think that all Jews know and relate to 483 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: the Bible as Christians do, and we don't. You know, 484 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 3: when you speak of Spoke of Revelations a few minutes ago. 485 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 3: I know of the Book of Revelations. I've read excerpts 486 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 3: from it. But I'm not by any stretch an authority. 487 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 3: I can go into a church, and I do frequently, 488 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 3: and I hear pastor preaching from the New Testament, and 489 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 3: I understand where the Old Testament reference, the Jewish reference 490 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 3: is in that that is from one of the apostles 491 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 3: or from Jesus himself. But I think a lot of 492 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 3: Christians don't understand that. We look at it completely differently. 493 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 3: Maybe you can say something enlightening that helps both Jews 494 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 3: and Christians. 495 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 2: Well, there's one difference is we go straight to the Bible, 496 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: and for the Jewish people, there's a lot of you 497 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 2: first go through rabbinic interpretations of the scriptures, and you 498 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: study what all these rabbis throughout the ages commented on 499 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 2: that verse or how they interpreted and how they saw it. 500 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: And that is one difference. And I do think that. 501 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: You know, I would love to study under a rabbi 502 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 2: to teach like the Book of Zechariah, just to go 503 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: back to earlier conversation about the end time events, to 504 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 2: hear how they do interpret it, because it is different, 505 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: and I'm afraid I'm not even able to articulate. But 506 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: from the Christian perspective, especially from the evangelical Christian perspective, 507 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 2: we go straight to the Bible and we believe it 508 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 2: to say what it was written to say. So some 509 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 2: people would say it's a literal interpretation, it's actually not. 510 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 2: It's a what we call a contextualized interpretation. So if 511 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: it's poetry, we interpret it as poetry. If it's a song, 512 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: we interpret it as a song. We don't interpret everything literally, 513 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: but we interpret it literally as it was written what 514 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: it was meaning to say, and so we study it directly, 515 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: and to me, that's one difference. 516 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 3: And by the way, that's an amazing you know, when 517 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 3: we were talking about it and I raised the issue, 518 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 3: I didn't even think of rabbinic commentary as being something 519 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 3: that's different because that's just innately who I am and 520 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 3: a part of what I am, and how we look 521 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 3: at scripture through rabbinic interpretation, and yeah, you're right, it's 522 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 3: not just old and new and people get offended by old, 523 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 3: new and different names. I don't get bothered by that. 524 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 3: But you're right. We have thousands of years of rabbinic 525 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 3: interpretation that we consider the oral law, and that's got 526 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 3: equal status with the with the original written law that 527 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,879 Speaker 3: God gave Moses. So it's a fascinating understanding, and you're right, 528 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 3: Christians don't begin to understand it. The only time I 529 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 3: actually heard of Christian speak in a church about the 530 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 3: Talmud was in a pejorative way about the things that 531 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 3: the rabbis and the talmud would say about Jesus. And 532 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 3: I don't have a source on that, but it was 533 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 3: interesting to me and disappointing that that was the reference 534 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 3: as compared to our feeling back the layers of the 535 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 3: Onion to understand and have a deeper relationship. 536 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 2: But you raised a very good point about even the 537 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 2: difference between the written law and the oral law. So 538 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:39,959 Speaker 2: we're just dealing with the written and yet Judaism has 539 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 2: this whole oral tradition of the oral law and the 540 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 2: rabbinic commentary on it and the Talmud and et cetera, 541 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: et cetera. So well, listen, Jonathan, this is fascinating. We 542 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 2: could go on for a long time discussing all of this. 543 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 2: It's great, but we so appreciate you giving of your 544 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: time today because you and I are really we're on 545 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 2: the same page here. We've had a lot of the 546 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 2: same experiences over the years, and so to discuss them, 547 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 2: but each from our own perspective. I trust that our 548 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 2: audience has really enjoyed it, so I know I have, 549 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 2: and I thank you Jonathan very much for joining us today. 550 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 3: It's a pleasure, and I hope because we've been discussing 551 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 3: misunderstandings that I hope this contributes a little bit more 552 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 3: to understanding. 553 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 2: How profound. What a perfect ending to today's conversation. So 554 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: next week I am going to close out this series 555 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: on Jews and Christians learning to relate, and I'm going 556 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,919 Speaker 2: to talk about who are evangelical Christians, how many are there, 557 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 2: why do they support Israel, and elaborate a little bit 558 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 2: more on some of what we discussed today about that. 559 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,520 Speaker 2: So I hope everyone will come back next week and 560 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 2: until then, God bless and I want to offer you 561 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 2: a free download. We have a download ten reasons to 562 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,920 Speaker 2: Stand with Israel, and actually it's ten reasons why Christian 563 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 2: should stand with Israel. Get your free download by going 564 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 2: to the link in today's show note, or go to 565 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 2: www dot out of zionshow dot com and click on 566 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 2: the tab for resources. We'll have it there as well, 567 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,719 Speaker 2: but be sure download this free resource for you. We're 568 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:36,960 Speaker 2: going to be talking about some of the points in 569 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 2: it in the coming week, so we want to make 570 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: sure that you have it. You can print it out, 571 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 2: you can share it with friends and family, invite them 572 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 2: to join us here on the Out of Zion Show 573 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 2: for our Israel Answer series. So we'll see you back 574 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 2: here next week and until then, God bless. 575 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: We hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of 576 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: Zion with Susan Michael. Be sure to subscribe to Out 577 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 1: of Zion now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pray dot Com, 578 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: Salem Oneplace Salem Like Audio. Out of Zion with Susan 579 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: Michael is a production of ic ejus A. All rights reserved. 580 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: This podcast is presented in partnership with Life Audio to 581 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: explore a wide range of faith centered podcasts on prayer, 582 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more. Visit lifeaudio dot com.