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Speaker 1: Life Audio, I gravitated towards atheism because I became interested

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Speaker 1: in space, it became interested in science and all the

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Speaker 1: things that kind of encompassed that. Just from the slogans

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Speaker 1: and things that I were hearing about Christianity, I thought

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Speaker 1: there was no good reason to believe it.

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Speaker 2: He said, I didn't want it to be true. Tell

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Speaker 2: me about that.

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Speaker 1: I said, I can't believe in a God who could

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Speaker 1: send me to an eternal punishment just because I have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of trouble believing in it. Looking back

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Speaker 1: at it, it came down to the fact that I

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Speaker 1: just I wanted to be in control, and if it's

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Speaker 1: actually true, then I'm not in control of anything. And

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Speaker 1: I think in my mind, I just I wanted to

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Speaker 1: keep that control over my life. That's where the gravity

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Speaker 1: of the Gospel started to sink in. That's when I

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Speaker 1: understood this isn't just about throwing my hands up and saying, Jesus,

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Speaker 1: what's next. This is more I need to fully commit myself.

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Speaker 1: I need to turn repent and fully commit myself to Jesus.

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Speaker 2: Why would it commit? Did aggressive atheist become a follower

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Speaker 2: of Jesus and then personally make and fund a stunning

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Speaker 2: documentary laying out the evidence for God. This is a

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Speaker 2: question that I have and I hope you do too

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Speaker 2: now as well. For our guest today, Michael ray Lewis, Michael,

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Speaker 2: good to see again, Thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Sean.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So, I want to talk about this documentary, which

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Speaker 2: I think is remarkable and I'm humbled to be a

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Speaker 2: part of. One of the things I do in this

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Speaker 2: channel is to try to bring resources to my audience

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Speaker 2: to equip and motivate and challenge them, and you have

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Speaker 2: done that one hundred percent with this documentary. But let's

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Speaker 2: start with your story. Tell us the backstory, I guess,

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Speaker 2: of how you became an atheist, and then down the

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Speaker 2: road we'll get to what shifted.

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Speaker 1: No, that sounds good. So in my home when I

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Speaker 1: grew up with my family, all of my family said

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Speaker 1: that they believed in God, and they all had Bibles

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Speaker 1: under their beds, but we never talked about God, definitely

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Speaker 1: never talked about Jesus, never read the Bible, and so

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Speaker 1: over time as I got older, I was never given

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Speaker 1: any good reason to believe it anyways, and so I

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Speaker 1: gravitated towards atheism because I became interested in space, I

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Speaker 1: became interested in science and all and all the things

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Speaker 1: that kind of encompassed that, and just from the slogans

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Speaker 1: and things that I were hearing about Christianity, I thought

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Speaker 1: there was no good reason to believe it. And then

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Speaker 1: on top of that, the only real interactions I had

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Speaker 1: with Christians, or what I thought were Christians were the

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Speaker 1: ones on the street corners yelling at me that I'm

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Speaker 1: going to Hell. And that was not something I wanted

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Speaker 1: to be a part of. And so I I think, you.

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Speaker 2: Don't, you don't mean be a part of hell, you

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Speaker 2: mean be part of a group that would yell at

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Speaker 2: people in that fashion.

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Speaker 1: Exactly, I didn't. I didn't want anything to do with

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Speaker 1: those Christians, And so naturally I just adopted atheism. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was the best option out and I but over time,

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Speaker 1: the more I kind of became committed to it, the

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Speaker 1: more aggressive I became towards Christians, the more I would

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Speaker 1: almost enjoy hitting them with hard questions or poking fun

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Speaker 1: at their belief systems. I would watch documentaries making fun

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Speaker 1: of Christianity. There was one by Bill Maher, I can't

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Speaker 1: remember the title of it. Yes, that was it. I

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Speaker 1: watched that, and I saw how he went around town

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Speaker 1: and was just the Christians weren't able to give him

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Speaker 1: any good answers, and he was just poking holes in

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Speaker 1: their belief systems. And then the other documentary I watched

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Speaker 1: was Zeitgeist, showing that Jesus wasn't an actual historical figure.

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Speaker 1: He was just a myth that was copied by all

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Speaker 1: these other ancient myths, and those were very persuasive to me,

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Speaker 1: and I think I just took things at face value,

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Speaker 1: and so as I became an atheist, I adopted that worldview.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't until years later I ended up meeting

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Speaker 1: my now wife and we got married, and she came

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Speaker 1: to me, and just to kind of put this in perspective,

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Speaker 1: she did grow up in the church. Oh, she was

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Speaker 1: a believer as when she was younger, but she was

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Speaker 1: pulled away by a lot of her friends, and of

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Speaker 1: course I pulled her away when we started dating as well.

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Speaker 1: But she comes home to me one day and she says,

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Speaker 1: I feel like Jesus is calling me back. And I'm like, ah,

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Speaker 1: that means I've got to deal with all this again.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, all right, you know what I'll

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Speaker 1: give it a second chance. I'll go to a church

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Speaker 1: with you, and I remember we walked into the church.

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Speaker 2: Oh hey, look, can I jump in right now? I

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Speaker 2: feel like this is the part where you become a Christian.

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Speaker 2: I want to know more about this atheism journey first.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: Were you How old were you when you would have

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Speaker 2: kind of said, you know what, I think I'm an atheist?

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Speaker 2: Like what stage were you in life?

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Speaker 1: I would probably say early twenties. I would say twenties,

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Speaker 1: early twenties. And it sounds like it was more of

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Speaker 1: a default adoption than it was a thought reasoned entrance

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Speaker 1: into here's why I an atheists, and the evidence lines

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Speaker 1: up with it. At the time, I thought I was

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Speaker 1: putting a lot of thought into it, But looking back

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Speaker 1: at it today, no, it was not well thought out.

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Speaker 1: It was more of an adopted belief system that I

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Speaker 1: just I thought looked more appealing than anything else.

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Speaker 2: Very interesting. Okay, So what did it look like when

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Speaker 2: you said you got a little bit more aggressive in

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Speaker 2: your beliefs where you're going into chat rooms where you're

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Speaker 2: making videos. Were you looking for Christians to do this?

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Speaker 2: What did that look like for you to be an

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Speaker 2: evangelist for atheism.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't necessarily call myself an evangelist for atheism because

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going on social media and debating people. But

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Speaker 1: what I would do is that when I would have

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Speaker 1: conversations with people, anytime I heard the word Christian, that

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Speaker 1: was my cue. That was my cue to bring up

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Speaker 1: something or like, I'm gonna have a conversation with this guy,

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Speaker 1: and that's when I would try to debate them and

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Speaker 1: try to pull coals in their belief systems. And so

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Speaker 1: while I wasn't out there doing it actively, I was

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Speaker 1: doing it within conversations that I was having. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's part of when I say it wasn't completely

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Speaker 1: well thought out. I mean, atheism in general wasn't like

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Speaker 1: my main priority. I had other things in my life

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Speaker 1: that were going on that were I would consider my priority.

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Speaker 1: As far as filmmaking was a big part of it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: because around this time, this is when I started making

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Speaker 1: I grew up obsessed with horror films, and so as

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Speaker 1: I got older and more into the film industry, that's

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Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. I wanted to make films

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Speaker 1: that could scare people, and so my priority in life,

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Speaker 1: and that moment wasn't necessarily the atheism. It was more

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Speaker 1: of the filmmaking and trying to figure out a way

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Speaker 1: to put together films that could be stylistic way of

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Speaker 1: scaring people. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to create horror films.

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Speaker 2: So there's such a different Christian take on horror films.

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Speaker 2: Some have a more concerned position you can never watch

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Speaker 2: and you should never watch them. But there's people like

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Speaker 2: Brian Goadawa who's a philosopher and a filmmaker. He made

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Speaker 2: a film to End All Wars with Keefer Sutherland and

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Speaker 2: excellent filmmaker, and in his book Hollywood world Views, he

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Speaker 2: talks about how he really likes horror films in the

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Speaker 2: sense that they're one of the genres that still has

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Speaker 2: real right and wrong built into it. There's justice and injustice,

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Speaker 2: there's such a thing as evil, and it challenges kind

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Speaker 2: of the relativistic notion of our age. Did that ever

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Speaker 2: cross your mind that I'm like an atheist but I

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Speaker 2: like horror films that imply justice, right and wrong and

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Speaker 2: evil that there might be good behind it or did

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Speaker 2: that just never really occur to you?

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Speaker 1: It never occurred to me because so growing up, when

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Speaker 1: I was younger, I mean, we would do seances, and

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Speaker 1: we would go to haunted houses, and we would do

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Speaker 1: all the things that we love to scare each other.

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Speaker 1: But I never actually believed any of them. I kind

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Speaker 1: of kept my atheism. I thought it was all nonsense.

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Speaker 1: There were no ghost these are just things that scared people.

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Speaker 1: And so when it came to the filmmaking aspect of it,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have that mindset of right and wrong and

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Speaker 1: the concept of all of that. I just was obsessed

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Speaker 1: with trying to create something, and horror films were the

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Speaker 1: easiest thing to do as well. I mean you could

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Speaker 1: do a horror film on a super low budget, and

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Speaker 1: that's what I kind of gravitated towards. But so as

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Speaker 1: I became well, we'll wait till I get to a believer,

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Speaker 1: and you can ask more questions about.

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Speaker 2: That, all right, get that? So I just have more

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Speaker 2: questions an atheists doing seances. I mean, what, like, how

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Speaker 2: did you do them? When did you do them? Was

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Speaker 2: it just fun? Like, tell me about that. Was there

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Speaker 2: a part of you that just had a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a fear there might be supernatural realm or you

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Speaker 2: literally thought it was all fairy tale.

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Speaker 1: Oh No, When I was this all started, I would

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Speaker 1: probably say when I was about nine years old. So

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Speaker 1: it was terrifying at first, and there were some things

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Speaker 1: that I saw and heard that scared the crap out me.

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Speaker 1: And this was just with friends and family that would

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Speaker 1: come over. They all knew how to do it, and

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Speaker 1: I was just kind of part of the group. And

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Speaker 1: as I got older though, and we started really kind

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Speaker 1: of becoming obsessed with it, and we would do more seances,

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Speaker 1: but it was more of like a family get together thing,

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Speaker 1: like this is what we do when our families get together.

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Speaker 1: We hang out, we drink, and then at the end

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Speaker 1: of the night, it's time to do a seance. And

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Speaker 1: so this was it was just one of the fun

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Speaker 1: things that we do. Do that and then watch horror

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Speaker 1: films that was part of it as well. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean towards the beginning, yeah, I was. I was terrified.

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Speaker 1: Looking back, I kind of came up with logical responses

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Speaker 1: to what happened and what I saw, But at the

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Speaker 1: beginning I believed it all. I thought it was scary,

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Speaker 1: And then as I got older and became an atheist

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Speaker 1: and kind of gravitated towards atheism. I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: that was nonsense, But I liked scaring people anyways, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to continue to do it through film. Looking back, now,

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Speaker 1: do you think there were certain things within the seance

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Speaker 1: that you're like, you know what, there was legitimate supernatural

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Speaker 1: or demonic activity taking place and I should have seen

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Speaker 1: that and should not have explained it away? Or do

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Speaker 1: you view it differently? No, Today, looking back at it,

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Speaker 1: some of it I could explain away. But there are

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Speaker 1: other instances and things that I saw that absolutely like

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Speaker 1: something was there, And even today as a Christian, I

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Speaker 1: still don't understand how all of that works, as far

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Speaker 1: as like the demonic realm and how all that actually operates.

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Speaker 1: But some of the things I saw, Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: something was absolutely happening there, And today, looking back at it,

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Speaker 1: it's I can't believe it didn't go worse than it did,

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Speaker 1: and so yeah, it's I'm looking back, I think something

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Speaker 1: was really happening.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you're lower twenties and you're an aggressive, committed atheist,

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Speaker 2: but more committed to like making horror films and creative

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Speaker 2: in your career. You weren't evangelists, but when opportunities came up,

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Speaker 2: you went after Christians. So I just have one more

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Speaker 2: question before we shift your transition. How did you go

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Speaker 2: after Christians? I guess there's two questions, how did you

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Speaker 2: go after Christians? Like? What things did you go after?

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Speaker 2: And did you encounter any thoughtful Christians? What was the

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Speaker 2: typical kind of response you would get from Christians when

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Speaker 2: that happened.

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Speaker 1: Well, I would hit them with the main big slogan questions.

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Speaker 1: So I would hit you can't have a good God

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Speaker 1: with the existence of evil. I would say evolution has

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Speaker 1: disproven Christianity. I was saying, you can't prove that God exists.

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Speaker 1: You can't have there's no scientific proof for God. And

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Speaker 1: so I would say all the typical things that you

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Speaker 1: would hear from an atheist. But as far as responses,

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Speaker 1: I would either get people who would tell me, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to push anything on you, so it's

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Speaker 1: okay just to kind of believe what you want to believe.

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Speaker 1: I would run into those, or I would just get

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Speaker 1: one run into ones that were defensive and would try

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Speaker 1: to just dispute what I was saying, not give reasons

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Speaker 1: for it, but just saying No, that's wrong. That's not

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Speaker 1: how it is. God created the universe. Evolution is false

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Speaker 1: and so but I never ran into anyone who was

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Speaker 1: able to give me a good reason. Looking back on it,

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Speaker 1: it's sad that no one was able to no one

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Speaker 1: was equipped to respond to me. And later on in

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Speaker 1: my atheism once a Lot, we'll continue that with my

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Speaker 1: story in a minute. But yeah, I would say that

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Speaker 1: there was not one person out there that was able

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Speaker 1: to respond to any of the objections I had.

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Speaker 2: That's just heartbreaking to me. I don't want to harp

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Speaker 2: on this too much, but I do want viewers and

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Speaker 2: listeners to know. This is the kind of stuff that

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Speaker 2: like motivates me day and night. When I hear stories

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Speaker 2: like this, and I don't turn around and try chied

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Speaker 2: the church it's the Bride of Christ. People are busy,

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Speaker 2: they have other things to do. I found that oftentimes

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Speaker 2: people start caring about apologetics when a loved war one

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Speaker 2: or themselves have questions. Maybe your questions and challenges in

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Speaker 2: ways you don't know, made people go back and start

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Speaker 2: studying apologetics. Who knows, but the heart of my ministry

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Speaker 2: to try to wake people up and go no, you

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Speaker 2: gotta be ready before somebody like Michael when he's twenty

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Speaker 2: two year old comes knocking. Then you can respond differently.

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Speaker 2: All right. With that said, let's come back to your story.

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Speaker 2: So you said he became an atheist or identified really

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Speaker 2: lower twenties. How old are you now you're married when

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Speaker 2: you say your wife brings you to church? And how

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Speaker 2: long had you been married at that stage? So she

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Speaker 2: actually brought me to church just a little while before

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Speaker 2: we got married. Okay, this was I get my story

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Speaker 2: wrong sometimes, but it's actually it was actually a little

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Speaker 2: bit before, because it was in twenty thirteen when she

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Speaker 2: first came to me with that statement that she said,

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Speaker 2: I feel like Jesus is calling me back. And I

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Speaker 2: remember when she took me to the church. One of

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Speaker 2: the things she wanted us to go to in the

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Speaker 2: church was their marriage class, because this was getting ready

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Speaker 2: for marriage. And I went to the glass and I

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Speaker 2: was like sure, I mean, I'll see and I remember

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Speaker 2: thinking I was like, oh, there's some good principles here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this stuff kind of makes sense. But we got married,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't really until after we were married when

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Speaker 1: my journey officially started though, because when I was hitting

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Speaker 1: her with the hard questions that I was hitting every

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Speaker 1: other question with. She wasn't backing down. Even though she

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Speaker 1: didn't know the answers. She still was adamant that it

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Speaker 1: was true. And she even went to the extent of

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Speaker 1: buying me a Bible, writing my name in it and

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Speaker 1: giving it to me. And I remember, I opened the Bible,

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Speaker 1: I looked through it on my six days in Genesis

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Speaker 1: this is nonsense, closed the Bible and pushed it away.

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Speaker 1: But there was one particular moment that really piqued my

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Speaker 1: curiosity and got me to take a deeper look at

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Speaker 1: all this Christian stuff. And it was a YouTube video

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Speaker 1: that popped up on my feed by Hugh raw going

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Speaker 1: over his perspective of the Creation days and that one video.

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Speaker 1: After I finished it, I said, you know, maybe there

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Speaker 1: is something to this, and so I kind of went

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Speaker 1: and then I started looking through Genesis again in light

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Speaker 1: of what he had had covered from his that interpretation

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Speaker 1: or the Old Earth interpretation of scripture, and it all

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Speaker 1: started to kind of line up, and I'm like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: well then now I'm gonna I'm curious. So I kind

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Speaker 1: of went from a state of like aggressiveness towards Christianity.

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Speaker 1: I softened up, went to the church with my wife.

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Speaker 1: But then I kind of I started to get really curious.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let me jump me out. How old are you

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Speaker 2: when this curious stage starts?

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Speaker 1: I was twenty six, around twenty.

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Speaker 2: Six, Okay, so about four years after saying you're an atheist.

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Speaker 2: Live that out. Now your your tension has been gotten

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Speaker 2: and you are curiously seeking more evidence, and you're married

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Speaker 2: at this stage exactly, Okay, keep going yep, okay.

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Speaker 1: And once I really started to become curious, that's when

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Speaker 1: I started buying books.

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Speaker 2: Ah, now you're investing money. Let's go.

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Speaker 1: And keep in mind, prior to this, I had never

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Speaker 1: finished a book my entire life. I went through high school.

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Speaker 1: I would watch the movies of the books that they

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Speaker 1: were reading, just kind of sly by to pass the tests,

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Speaker 1: and I never I just didn't like to read. I

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Speaker 1: liked film, I like cinema. I like movies. But I

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Speaker 1: don't even know how many books I went through through

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Speaker 1: this period. This was about a three year journey from

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Speaker 1: the moment that she said that statement to the moment

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Speaker 1: I gave my life to Christ and I read Timothy

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Speaker 1: Keller's Reasons for God. I went through Hugh Ross's book

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Speaker 1: Why the Universe Is the Way It is a matter

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Speaker 1: of days. I went through you Guys's book more than

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Speaker 1: a carpenter. There was just one after another, and I

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Speaker 1: was I realized that there are a lot of good

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Speaker 1: arguments out there, like there's a lot of evidence that

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Speaker 1: shows that God exists. It was at the end of

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Speaker 1: the three year journey, after I had kind of been

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Speaker 1: looking into all of this. Then I started asking my

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Speaker 1: wife questions about angels and demons and stuff in scripture,

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Speaker 1: and she finally was like, you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to answer the questions you're trying

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Speaker 1: to ask me. But my mom has a friend in

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Speaker 1: the family that you can go and have a conversation with.

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Speaker 1: He's a theologian. I said, okay, great, So I wrote

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Speaker 1: down five pages full of questions. I'm just ready to

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Speaker 1: handle this guy. I walked in, Okay, I remember.

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Speaker 2: So sorry, I'm really trying. So at this stage, it

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Speaker 2: sounds like you believe God exists, you're leaning towards the

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Speaker 2: Christian God, but there's theological and biblical barriers before you'd

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Speaker 2: make that commitment. Am I understanding where you're at you're

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Speaker 2: exactly right, okay, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I had looked through other religions and belief systems

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Speaker 1: at this point too. It was a lot of digging

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Speaker 1: in during that three years. But once I walk in

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Speaker 1: the door to talk with this theologian, I remember, I

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Speaker 1: just went down the list and I was asking a

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Speaker 1: question and a question. I remember specifically every question. He

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Speaker 1: went to the scriptures and he was answering it using

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Speaker 1: the scriptures. And at the end of the conversation, I

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Speaker 1: went to the last question and he looked up at

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Speaker 1: me and he said, so do you believe it?

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Speaker 2: Wow?

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Speaker 1: Thinking to myself, well I don't have any more objections

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Speaker 1: at this point, and I said, yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 1: But it didn't really sink in at that moment. It

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Speaker 1: was actually the drive home. On the way home is

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Speaker 1: when I really thought to myself, I actually think that

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Speaker 1: this is true, So why why don't I just believe it?

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Speaker 1: And that's when I realized it wasn't the evidence that

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Speaker 1: was holding me back. It was the fact that I

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Speaker 1: didn't want it to be true.

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Speaker 2: Ooh.

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Speaker 1: And when I realized that, I thought to myself, well,

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Speaker 1: that's not a good reason. And so I said, all right, Jesus,

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Speaker 1: what's next? And that was me giving my life to Christ.

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Speaker 1: And I don't normally talk about this part of it

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Speaker 1: because this is the experiential part, and I tend to

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Speaker 1: lean more towards the evidential base for a belief. However,

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Speaker 1: I did have an experience in that moment as well.

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Speaker 1: It was almost like I had a fog over my mind,

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Speaker 1: my entire life, and it was like the fog finally

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Speaker 1: left and I could finally see reality for the way

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Speaker 1: that it actually is, which is ironic because as an atheist,

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Speaker 1: I always looked at Christians as being narrow minded. But

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Speaker 1: I realized in that moment I was being narrowminded as

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Speaker 1: an atheist, and I went from a state of believing

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Speaker 1: that it's true to knowing that it's true. And from

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Speaker 1: then on then my journey went to trying to help

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Speaker 1: others see the evidence that convinced me that it was true.

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Speaker 2: You know, if Christianity is true, then atheists are narrow

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Speaker 2: minded because they only believe in material things or things

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Speaker 2: that spawn out of or depend upon material things. So

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Speaker 2: it seemed to me a Christian wouldn't be narrow mind,

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Speaker 2: and a Christian would be gullible and just believe in

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Speaker 2: things that aren't evidenced. So you can make a critique

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Speaker 2: on either side, but you're right, the question is what

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Speaker 2: is reality and where does the evidence point? Now, I

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Speaker 2: got to lean into a couple of things you said.

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Speaker 2: You said I didn't want it to be true. Tell

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Speaker 2: me about that.

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Speaker 1: So one of the biggest objections that I had, and

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Speaker 1: I even expressed this to my wife, I said, I

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Speaker 1: can't believe in a god who could send me to

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Speaker 1: an eternal punishment just because I have a little bit

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Speaker 1: of trouble believing in him. So that was one of

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Speaker 1: my main objections. But my other reason for not wanting

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Speaker 1: it to be true is because I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: be held accountable to anybody. I want to be in

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Speaker 1: control of my own life. I want to do what

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Speaker 1: I want to do, and there's a lot of rules

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Speaker 1: and things in my mind that you had to adopt

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Speaker 1: when giving your life or becoming a Christian. And then

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Speaker 1: he in the title itself like revulsed me. I didn't

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Speaker 1: like the title Christian just because I knew what kind

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Speaker 1: of baggage came with that. Yeah, But ultimately, I think

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Speaker 1: looking back at it, it came down to the fact

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Speaker 1: that I just I wanted to be in control, and

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Speaker 1: if it's actually true, then I'm not in control of anything.

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Speaker 1: And I think in my mind, I just I wanted

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Speaker 1: to keep that control over my life. And so this

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Speaker 1: isn't you just looking back at that moment you really realized, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm giving up control, like that was you had full

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Speaker 1: awareness of that.

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Speaker 2: In the moment.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because I realized, like, like, this is actually true.

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Speaker 1: That means I need to give my loved Christ. And

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Speaker 1: everything he claimed about himself is true. Everything he says

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Speaker 1: about reality is true. And this whole time I was

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Speaker 1: I was scared to relinquish that control. And I think

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Speaker 1: afterwards though, when I did give my life to Christ,

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Speaker 1: it was like this the freest feeling ever. It was

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Speaker 1: not as though like releasing that control of my life.

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Speaker 1: It was a freeing feeling. And then I just became

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Speaker 1: extremely excited, extremely curious because now that I know all

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Speaker 1: this is true, I want to know more about it.

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Speaker 1: I want to know more about him. And that's when

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Speaker 1: I really started to just dive into the scriptures and

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Speaker 1: read and study and become more involved with the church

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Speaker 1: and learn as much as I can, and study apologetics

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Speaker 1: and try to be able to defend my faith and

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Speaker 1: have conversations with people. And it was actually funny because

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Speaker 1: when I gave my life to Christ, even though I

435
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: had those conversations with Christians, that couldn't give me good responses.

436
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: In my mind, this was just kind of the process

437
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 1: everybody took. People followed the evidence, they gave their life

438
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 1: to Jesus, and then they started their journey. But after

439
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 1: giving my life to Christ and going to the church,

440
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: I realized that ninety percent of believers that wasn't the case.

441
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,399
Speaker 1: They had grown up in the church. This is just

442
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: kind of what they believed their entire life. They never

443
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: seemed to really question it. I'm sure they had objections,

444
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: but they never had the kind of doubts that I had.

445
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,959
Speaker 1: And so because of that, they had no idea what

446
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 1: apologetics even was. They had no idea there was an

447
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 1: entire ministry of defending the faith. And so I went

448
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 1: to the pastor and I said, what, like, what can

449
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 1: we do to kind of help this? And he said,

450
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 1: why don't you start an apologetic study? And so then

451
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: I started equipping people in the church and helping them

452
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 1: to defend their faith, so.

453
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 2: That when he became a real evangelist, by the way,

454
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 2: as opposed to when you were an atheist, not being

455
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: intentional about it. And good for your pastor, by the way.

456
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: We could talk about people not being able to defend

457
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 2: the faith, but your pastor understood, here's someone with a passion,

458
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 2: here's somebody with an ability. I want to set them

459
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 2: free and set them up for success. That's exactly the

460
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 2: right response. So kudos to that pastor years this and

461
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 2: sees this way to go keep it up. Good for you?

462
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 1: Tell me funny? Oh, go ahead, Well, I was gonna

463
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 1: say what's funny about that? That interaction with my pastor.

464
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: When I first I was actually going to leave the

465
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: church prior because our church didn't offer any kind of

466
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: apologetic studies and I wanted to go and try to

467
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: figure out like I wanted to join a class and

468
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: learn more about it and be a part of a

469
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: church that offered that. He was actually the one who

470
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 1: pulled me into his office and said, look, we don't

471
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: have anyone that can do it, but why don't you

472
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: do it?

473
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 2: Oh?

474
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: I love it, And so it was actually he is

475
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 1: the one who kind of started that whole process. So

476
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 1: I just wanted to throw that in there.

477
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 2: And by the way, you know we have you know,

478
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 2: I teach in a master's and apologized program, and our

479
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 2: graduates are always looking for ways to use apologetics. And

480
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 2: one mistake people can make is they get so aggressive

481
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 2: they just move into a church like everything needs to

482
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 2: stop and just do apologetics. And I'm like, I love

483
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 2: your passion, but that's not going to help the other

484
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: mister as just say, well they don't do apologetics, I'm leaving,

485
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: and I go, Okay. See, if there's an openness where

486
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: you can serve the church, maybe when the pastor does

487
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: a message, you're able to do some research if it's

488
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: on like the Exodus or some other issue. Maybe you

489
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: can be available to counsel when people have questions like

490
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: this theologian answered your questions. Maybe you can sponsor a conference.

491
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: Maybe you can set up a group like find a

492
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: problem and meet it in a way that serves the church.

493
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: I'm so glad your pastor responded that way. That's gold.

494
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 2: Now that said, I want to tell me a little

495
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: bit more about when you said you looked into other religions.

496
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: What did that entail? Because I can imagine a skeptic

497
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 2: saying Michael you had at least a Bible under your bed,

498
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 2: not under your pillow growing up, given that there were seances,

499
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 2: but under your bed growing up. You're in a Christian society,

500
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 2: you're married to someone who's a Christian. There's such built

501
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 2: in incentive to be a Christian as opposed to a

502
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,240
Speaker 2: member of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter day Saints,

503
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 2: a Jehovah's Witness, a Muslim, New Age, you name it.

504
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: What did that look like to consider other religions for you.

505
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 1: Well, honestly, I was kind of hoping that one of

506
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: the other religions were the one that were true really

507
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: whenever I was looking because as an atheist, when I

508
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 1: was looking at it, like, I really did not like Christianity.

509
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 1: I didn't like Christians. I didn't want to adopt that title.

510
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: And so but after watching that video, if you ross

511
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 1: going over like just the reality, like there must be

512
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: a God, that's when I was like, well, let's go

513
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: see what everybody else says about it. But there's so

514
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: many flaws in all of the other belief systems that

515
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 1: it didn't take long for me to come back to

516
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: Christianity because there were lots of things that just didn't

517
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 1: didn't make sense. They didn't line up. There were lots

518
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: of the people who started the belief systems, especially with

519
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 1: like Jehovah, witnesses and the Latter day Saints, like none

520
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: of that seemed to be true. But there was something

521
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: different about Jesus. Jesus was so much more impactful than

522
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 1: any of the other belief systems. And so that's where

523
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: I kind of lean more towards Christianity and the scriptures

524
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: themselves as well. Just how they really do line up

525
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: with what we see in nature and the compatibility of it,

526
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: I think is what really started to kind of gravitate

527
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 1: me towards it. So I didn't spend a whole lot

528
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 1: of time on other belief systems because it was pretty

529
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: quick that I could find errors or flaws in them.

530
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: Do you still have that five pages of questions or

531
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: did you throw that out?

532
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: I don't have it anymore.

533
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 2: It's a good show to just walk through. Imagine you

534
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: could remember a lot of them. Yeah, that'd be a

535
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: cool relic to have. Like, I don't think you mentioned

536
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 2: more than a carpenter earlier. I don't think my dad

537
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: I haven't been able to find he wrote that over

538
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: like a few hours on legal note pads in a

539
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: McDonald's in Chicago, never dreaming it'd be like thirty million

540
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 2: in print worldwide. I wish he just had that legal pad.

541
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 2: That would be incredible, But he doesn't. Nonetheless, so okay,

542
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: you don't have that. But I imagine you can remember

543
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: what quite a few of those questions were, and I'm

544
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: guessing one of them is about hell that you kind

545
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: of referenced earlier. So how would you answer the idea

546
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 2: that a loving God could send somebody to hell for

547
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: just not believing in him?

548
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was Honestly, I think that's probably the main

549
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 1: one for a lot of people. I think a lot

550
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: of people look at Christianity and people out there trying

551
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: to tell them about Jesus, and they say, look, I mean,

552
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: if God loved me, he's not gonna send me to

553
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: an eternal punishment. I'm not a bad guy. I'm all right,

554
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: And just because I have a little bit of trouble

555
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: believing it, that's nonsense. But what I realized looking back

556
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: at my objection there is that I didn't fully understand

557
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: the gospel. I mean, I had heard the repent and

558
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: believe language all the time, but it didn't really kind

559
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: of it didn't really sink in. I knew what the

560
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: gospel was, but I didn't know I didn't understand it properly.

561
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: And the reality is that God isn't sending us anywhere.

562
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 1: We are already destined for there, and Jesus is standing

563
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: right in front of you with his hand wide open,

564
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: and all you have to do is take his hand.

565
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: And rather than us taking his hand, we push it away,

566
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: turn our back and go a different direction. And so

567
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: it's not as though it has to do with just

568
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: a little bit of trouble belief in him. It's the

569
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: fact that the evidence is clear if you'll take a

570
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: second look at it, if you'll dig deep enough. Because

571
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: I didn't dig deep enough before. I would base my

572
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: entire worldview on slogans that I had heard. But if

573
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: you take a second look and you really dig into

574
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: the evidence, it really is evident. It's evident that God exists,

575
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: and it's evident that there's this disconnect with us right

576
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: where we're separated from Him, and He's built a bridge

577
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: through Jesus and he's standing right there and all you

578
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: have to do is take his hand. It's as simple

579
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: as that, and yet we don't want to We push

580
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 1: it away and we want to go our own direction.

581
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: I'm glad that you focused on this being such a

582
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 2: big issue. I would encourage people as strongly as I can.

583
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 2: There's an article by Clay Jones, who's written books on

584
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: the problem of evil. He has book coming out soon

585
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: on suffering, and he talks about he did a deep

586
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 2: dive on human nature in the twentieth century, how flawed

587
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: and broken and inclined all of us are towards evil.

588
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 2: It's not a few deranged individuals, but he walks through

589
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: and says when people have the pressure and the opportunity

590
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: we do as a whole, evil things curvege and doing

591
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 2: right is actually more the exception. It's an article called

592
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 2: we don't take human evil seriously enough. I cannot more

593
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: strongly recommend people to read that, because we can't understand

594
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: hell until we have an accurate understanding of the holiness

595
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: of God and also human depravity. If we think God's

596
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: sends us to hell because we got the wrong answer

597
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: on a test, we completely misunderstand God's character and don't

598
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: have an accurate understanding of our own sinfulness. So let

599
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: me ask you this. You didn't want Christianity to be true.

600
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: You recognize you didn't want to give over your life.

601
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: You were intellectually convinced that it was true. What did

602
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: it take for you to be like, Okay, I'm a sinner,

603
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: I need to repent invite christ in Like, what did

604
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: it take? And was that just that same day or

605
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: when did that happen? As compared to the conversation with

606
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: this theologian.

607
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 1: You know, this is actually where I'm really curious about

608
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: my conversion and the process of it, because on that

609
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 1: car ride, that realization, in that moment, it was realizing

610
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: that I didn't want to give my life to Jesus

611
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: because I that it wasn't based on the evidence. It's

612
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: that realization that was what made me kind of throw

613
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: my hands up and said, all right, Jesus, what's next.

614
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: But when I came home that night and I had

615
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: my wife was sitting there and she's like kind of

616
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: anticipating what's happening, and I basically was like, yeah, I'm

617
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: a believer. I believe it's true. And it was immediately

618
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: after that. I can't remember if it was her or

619
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: someone else, but I think that's where the gravity of

620
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: the gospel started to sink in. And that's when I

621
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 1: understood this isn't just about throwing my hands up and saying, Jesus,

622
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: what's next. This is more I need to fully commit

623
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: myself to to Jesus. I need to turn repent and

624
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: fully commit myself to Jesus. And so it was a

625
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,719
Speaker 1: gradual kind of process, and so I can't I always

626
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: wonder like, was my conversion that day on the car

627
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: ride home or was my conversion the day of the

628
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: understanding and realizing and grasping the gospel, Because experientially it

629
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: was that car ride, but it was. But maybe that's

630
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: when he was doing something in my heart that really

631
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: turned the light on for me and helped me to

632
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: really start to be able to absorb the gospel and

633
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: soften my heart in a way that it really sunk

634
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: in for the first time.

635
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 4: You know.

636
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: The good news is we don't have to perfectly answer

637
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: that question. My story is obviously different than yours. Grown

638
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: up in a Christian home with an apologist evangelist father,

639
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 2: learning this stuff, you know, as early as it was,

640
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: but having moments of like praying the prayer at camp,

641
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: moments of God's grace I like, did I really become

642
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: a believer in college when I really understood the depth

643
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: of my own need for God and not a believer before? Like,

644
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: I have a hard time believing that. I think it's

645
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 2: in age appropriate ways. It made sense to me at

646
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: different times. But whether or not I can solve that.

647
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 2: I like the fact that you're saying, you know what,

648
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: even though I'm a believer, I still have some questions.

649
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: I don't have it all figured out. That's totally okay

650
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: to do. I want people to see that that now.

651
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: It's not like, oh, I got it all figured out

652
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 2: and I believe in God. No. Sometimes, when I studied

653
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: my work on the Apostles, I walked away more confident,

654
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: but also with more questions I didn't even know existed.

655
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: But I'm okay living with those questions because I have

656
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: a deeper confidence that it's true and I know God

657
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 2: is okay with my questions. Do you have doubts now

658
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: that you're a believer? Do you have questions? And how?

659
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,439
Speaker 2: If so, how do you process them? Or do you

660
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: just have the gift of faith which some of my

661
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:50,480
Speaker 2: friends have.

662
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: No, I still have doubts all the time. And what's

663
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: amazing though, is That's why I love Christianity because it's like,

664
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: no matter what doubt you come up with, all you

665
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: got to do is just lay it all out because

666
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 1: each individual doubt that you have, it all depends on

667
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: what its impact is on the cumulative case of Christianity

668
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: because there are so many good reasons, there are so

669
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: many good arguments, there's so much evidence out there that

670
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: those doubts that you have, most of them, we will

671
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: be able to find answers to some of them. You won't,

672
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: like you were saying, some of these questions that we have,

673
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 1: we will just never know until we're with him. But

674
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 1: it's to lean into the doubts and try to investigate

675
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: them and then try to decide is this particular doubt

676
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: something that blows the case? Is this is is this

677
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: something that tears down all of those other arguments? And

678
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: I would say absolutely not. There there's just there's just

679
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: too much. There really is too much. And I always

680
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: tell this when I'm talking to non believers as well,

681
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: because they'll start asking me about other belief systems in

682
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: other world views, and I'm like, just search, like I'm

683
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: confident that if you're genuinely seeking truth, you're going to

684
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: come to Christianity because it really is the best explanation.

685
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: And so if you're open and honest with yourself and

686
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: genuine with yourself, then I'm confident you're going to land

687
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: where you need to land.

688
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 2: Amen to that. And by the way, I encourage people

689
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 2: all the time with this. When you hear an objection,

690
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: ask how central is this?

691
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: Is it?

692
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: First tier, second, third, fourth? So something like contradictions the Bible.

693
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 2: If there were a genuine contradiction, I would not chuck

694
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: my faith. It makes me have to rethink what I

695
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: believe about inerrancy and maybe canonicity. I mean, it would

696
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 2: raise important questions. I'm not undermining that or what's meant

697
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: by it being the word of God, but that would

698
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: not overturn my faith. If I believe evolution in terms

699
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 2: of common descent, not this purely materialistic story, We're true,

700
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 2: I would not give up my faith. That would make

701
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: me rethink, Okay, did I understand Genesis correctly? And why

702
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 2: did God set up the world this way? What do

703
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: we do with the fall? Historical atom like? Those are

704
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 2: all very important questions. What would make me give up

705
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: my faith is something like finding a better explanation for

706
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: the resurrection of Jesus. And this is what Michaelacona has

707
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: said many times, is like, if Jesus has risen from

708
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 2: the grave, it's game set match. That is the root

709
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 2: of my faith and I keep it there. So when

710
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: people hear questions, the first thought I always say is

711
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: just realize you're not the first one who's had this question.

712
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 2: I guarantee you somebody's thought about it and written at

713
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: least a response. You could investigate and see if it's

714
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 2: reasonable or not. But second, ask how central is this question? Now?

715
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: One last question before we shift, Oh, you know what,

716
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 2: I have a couple for you. Is there any other

717
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: big question from that five page list that you went

718
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 2: to the Theologian that you had answered that you want

719
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 2: to put out there because you suspect maybe somebody else

720
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: is wrestling with that question. Or was Hell really just

721
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: the big one you want.

722
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: To focus on? Hell was the big one? The other

723
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 1: ones were trying to understand what the scriptures actually said.

724
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: So I had a lot of questions about the like

725
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: LGBTQ community and Jesus's response to all of that. I

726
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: had questions about angels and demons and how does all

727
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: that make sense. I had questions about the miracles in

728
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: scripture and the crazy stuff that happens in there that

729
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,439
Speaker 1: just seems impossible, and so those were the main ones

730
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: that I would bring up. I can't remember because it

731
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,240
Speaker 1: was such a weird experience. I remember asking the questions

732
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: and looking back at it today, it's almost like, if

733
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: it makes any sense, it's crazy today thinking about it,

734
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: But looking back at it today, it was almost like

735
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 1: it was Jesus sitting there answer the questions for me.

736
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 1: Like I remember the mind I was in. The mindset

737
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: I was in was kind of like really curious, and

738
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: I was just trying to listen to what he was saying.

739
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: When at the beginning of it, I was ready to

740
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: go in more skeptical, but something was moving in me

741
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: while he was answering the questions. And so even looking

742
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 1: back at it today, I can't remember exactly what all

743
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: the questions were. I just remember that that it was.

744
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: It was all the questions that I had written down,

745
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: and towards the end of it that that one moment

746
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: is what I remember him looking up at me and

747
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: asking me if I believe that it's true. That was

748
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 1: the one that really stuck.

749
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 2: Out with me. That's that's amazing. I love that moment

750
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: for you and that you're able to freely ask those questions. Again,

751
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: good for that theologian and for the pastor responding the

752
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 2: way that he did, which you're you're a conversion. Seems

753
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 2: to match a larger shift in the conversation about God.

754
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,399
Speaker 2: So from the new atheist, which in many ways you're

755
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: an evangelist, but you see to buy some of their arguments,

756
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 2: advanced their arguments in the attitude in which many of

757
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: the new atheists seem to propagate their ideas. And now

758
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: not only are the new atheists dead, like that movement

759
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 2: is long gone, it's like every few weeks we hear

760
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 2: a new story of somebody discovering God. The latest book

761
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 2: I got is Taking Religion Seriously by Harvard trained intellectual

762
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: I think in his eighties, Charles Murray. I'm not quite

763
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 2: sure he's in the Christian faith or not. I couldn't

764
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: totally tell, but he's awfully close to it. Do you

765
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 2: think the God conversation is shifting? And how do you

766
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: see your journey kind of in light of that?

767
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: I think I think it is, and I think I'm

768
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: kind of right in the middle of it since becoming

769
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: a believer, because when I first started having conversations with

770
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: non believers, it was a little bit more felt more

771
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: like a debate. But today when I have conversations with people,

772
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: ninety percent of the people I have conversations with are

773
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: really open to telling me their worldviews having conversations with

774
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: you about it. They seem to be genuinely interested in

775
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: hearing what you have to say. And so, yeah, I

776
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: don't I couldn't explain what's going on, but I do

777
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: start to see some kind of shift with and that's

778
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: one of the reasons, honestly, why I wanted to release

779
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 1: the movie is as quickly as I'm doing it, because

780
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: something's happening right now, and I think it's a really

781
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: good time when people are really starting to take a

782
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: second look and starting to be curious about this. I

783
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: think it's just a perfect time for something like that

784
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: to be released.

785
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: Well, this is a perfect segue to talk about the documentary.

786
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 2: And by the way, I think it was three years

787
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: ago you came to my house and interviewed me, and

788
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: then maybe I don't know, a year eighteen months ago

789
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: you came back to southern California, and we went to

790
00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: the beach to get a little bit of b roll

791
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 2: to kind of tell the story of the film. But

792
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 2: I want people to know a couple of things. Number One,

793
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: you didn't pay me or any of the other contributors

794
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 2: anything for being in the film. I want to confirm,

795
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: is that right? You didn't pay anybody anything. People volunteered

796
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 2: their time.

797
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: Everyone volunteered. I actually, when I first decided I was

798
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 1: gonna make it, I didn't know what I was getting

799
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,879
Speaker 1: myself into, because I was My idea was like, I'm

800
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: gonna go find a bunch of people who used to

801
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: be atheist and give their testimony of how they came

802
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: to faith through the evidence. But I was like, you know,

803
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna My wife said, whyn't you just try to

804
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: send emails out to people? And so I was like, okay,

805
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: I start grabbing the books off myself. Sent one to

806
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 1: Frank Turik, sent one to Hugh Ross, sent one to you.

807
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: And I would just send all these emails back and

808
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: then one after another they would respond and say yes, yes.

809
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: And so I put plenting tickets on a credit card

810
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: and I went and flew and got interviews. But yeah,

811
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 1: no one charged me for anything. The only thing I

812
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: had to pay for was the flights. But it was

813
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 1: really amazing, especially when I went to go interview Hugh Ross,

814
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: because he was that main one that kind of transitioned

815
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: everything for me, I bet, and so that was just

816
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: an amazing experience to be able to see in the

817
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: person and interview him and all of you guys and

818
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: basically ask all the hard questions I had as an

819
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: atheist because originally I had no script or story. Originally

820
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 1: I just knew that I was able to get the interviews.

821
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: So I flew out and just made the list of

822
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 1: all my hard questions, knew the apologists that would answer

823
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: each one better, and then I would just hit all

824
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 1: the questions all down the list.

825
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: Now, by the way, this is not a paid interview

826
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: or advertisement at all. I recently had John Stonestree on

827
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: to talk about the Truth Rising documentary that folks in

828
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 2: the Family and the Culson Center put together. One of

829
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: the things I want to do in this channel is

830
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: just bring resources to my audience, believer or not, that

831
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 2: I think are good quality resources they should take advantage of.

832
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: And this is one of them. Now you said you

833
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 2: put it on a credit card, Part of me goes, Wow,

834
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 2: what an act of faith. The other part of me goes,

835
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 2: are you crazy and losing your mind? And did your

836
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: wife sign up with this? Because there's a balance between

837
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 2: faith and between foolishness, right, yeah, So tell me a

838
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 2: little bit about making that decision, Like the first time

839
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 2: you're like, Okay, I'm actually putting this on my credit

840
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: card and I don't even know how I'm gonna pay

841
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 2: for this. What was that process?

842
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: Like, I mean it was I think it was more

843
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: excitement the fact that I actually got the interviews. To

844
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: be honest, it was like, all right, this is going

845
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: to happen. This is going to make the movie even

846
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: better than it was going to be, So I'm gonna

847
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: go ahead and make the trip. But I think, honestly,

848
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: I think it was just it was not the smartest decision,

849
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 1: but it definitely did pan out. Shortly after that, I

850
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: had created the donation page and tried to ask for

851
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: donations to kind of help me fund this movie, and

852
00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: there was one a couple of particular donors actually knew

853
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: me as an atheist before, and they ended up investing

854
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 1: like seventy thousand dollars, which helped me pay that back

855
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: helped me continue to do the rest of the interviews,

856
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: and so it was kind of crazy and amazing how

857
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: everything kind of fell together. I even noticed too, as

858
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: I hired people out of state to kind of help

859
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: come and film on set. It didn't plan this out

860
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: at all, but virtually all of them ended up being Christians,

861
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: and it was not expected. There was only one atheist

862
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: in the entire production crew, and he was one of

863
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: the VFX artists on the film, still working on him.

864
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: So that's a cool film for him to work on,

865
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: by the way, and have to see this stuff and

866
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 2: wrestle with it. So let's stop for saying I want

867
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: people to see the trailer because I want to see

868
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: the quality behind this. I'm not going to promote something

869
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: here that I don't think is not only goods substance,

870
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 2: but also good quality, and this trailer captures it.

871
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 5: Any person who is truly a thinking person needs to

872
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,320
Speaker 5: ask themselves the question why is there something rather than nothing?

873
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,839
Speaker 3: Scientists believe there's an intelligible answer to that, meaning there

874
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 3: is a reason for the way things are. What's that reason?

875
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: Why do I exist? Why do you exist?

876
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 2: Why does the universe exist?

877
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 6: Physicists have discovered.

878
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 5: Fundamental constants and parameters and characteristics that define the universe

879
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 5: have to assume exacting, precise values.

880
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: If you were to change any one of them, there

881
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: would either be no universe or no universe that could

882
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: support life.

883
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 6: Our galaxy, our star, our planetary system, the Earth, the moon,

884
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 6: whatever size scale you choose to look, you see an

885
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,359
Speaker 6: overwhelming experimental and observational case that there is a being

886
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 6: out there fine tuning, intervening.

887
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 5: Immersing myself in the study of biochemical systems, I became

888
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 5: deeply impressed with the ingenuity and the elegance in the

889
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 5: sophistication of those systems.

890
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,360
Speaker 6: The living cell is chock full of minister machines that

891
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,399
Speaker 6: doesn't just rival, but it vastly exceeds our own high

892
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 6: tech digital technology.

893
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 5: And there must be a creator that's behind life itself.

894
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 4: If some kind of a god existed, he would want

895
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 4: to reveal himself, at least in some way. We would

896
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 4: have to look at all of the different ways people

897
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 4: have understood him to do that.

898
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: I want to know, is there any evidence backing any

899
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 2: one of them up as uniquely being true.

900
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 3: This guy shows up on the scene and does something remarkable,

901
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 3: whatever it is he did split history and on the

902
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 3: pages of the Qur'an, on the pages of Bha law,

903
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 3: Sacre writes, on the pages of Buddhism, Hinduism, Krishna age.

904
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: These romans were skilled in crucifixion.

905
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: They knew how to make sure that.

906
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 1: Someone was completely dead.

907
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:12,760
Speaker 3: Many of Jesus' disciples had experiences that Jesus had risen

908
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 3: from the dead.

909
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: What did the game Well, they were beaten, tortured, persecuted,

910
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: beheaded stone quick and waiting for their lives. We really

911
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: have to put our beliefs to the fire.

912
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 3: The reason we believe that God is true is because

913
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 3: he's the best explanation for the way things are.

914
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 4: There are truths that can be known, and I want

915
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 4: to know what they are, all.

916
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 2: Right, Michael, This comes out December thirteenth. In the minute,

917
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell people how to find it, but honestly,

918
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 2: I hope it's okay if I push you here. How

919
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 2: much did it cost to make a film like this

920
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 2: and did you personally lose money on this? If so,

921
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 2: how much.

922
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: We raised and spent about one hundred and fifty thousand

923
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,800
Speaker 1: on the production, and that is extremely low for films

924
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: of this quality. The only reason I was able to

925
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: do it is because all of that budget went to

926
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: the visual effects, so the three D effects, It went

927
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 1: to the music composition, and it went to all the

928
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 1: travel costs and expenses for getting flights and places to stay.

929
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: And then I was edited most of it myself. When

930
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:39,680
Speaker 1: we went to film, I would be the main guy

931
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: behind the camera, but also asking in the interview questions

932
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: as well, and then I rehire like a friend or

933
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: someone on the side to operate the other cameras. And

934
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: out of that, about thirty thousand of it came out

935
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: of my pocket in making it, which is crazy if

936
00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 1: if you look at any other film production, extremely low

937
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: for the budget that we had. But I was able

938
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 1: to make it work and something wonderful came out of it.

939
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 2: So okay, So December thirteenth, this comes out. If people

940
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 2: want to look at the website, it's Universe Designed dot com,

941
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 2: not Theuniverse Design dot Com. But we'll link below Universe

942
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 2: Designed dot Com and it's going to come out on Apple, Fandango.

943
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: That's Apple, TV, Amazon, Google kind of the main carriers online,

944
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: not theaters. But you sent me a link to watch it,

945
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to go buy it myself or at least

946
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 2: rent it, because I'm assuming that some of the funds

947
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: will go back to you for your expenses. Here if

948
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,839
Speaker 2: your expenses are covered from this, and I hope people

949
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: will watch it to at least cover your expenses. But

950
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: if you get money beyond that, what would you do

951
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 2: with it?

952
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm I'm all in. At this point, I plan

953
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: to continue to make films that will direct people to apologetics,

954
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,959
Speaker 1: and so my hope is that it will make enough

955
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: to make another film, maybe a bigger film, maybe a

956
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 1: bigger budget. I have so many ideas. So one of

957
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: the biggest critiques I have with Christian films is that

958
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: a lot of them are trying to be a little

959
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: bit more gentle in the approach on the film. So,

960
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: for example, a lot of them may not mention the

961
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: deity of Jesus, or a lot of them may not

962
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 1: mention the gospel message. And so those are one of

963
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: the two things I wanted to be very explicit about

964
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: in this particular film, because while those films have a

965
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: purpose and serve a purpose, there need to also be

966
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: the films out there that are very explicit so that

967
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: when people are genuinely open to hearing it, They're getting

968
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 1: delivered the gospel message, and so I want to continue.

969
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: But on top of that, like I said before, the

970
00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: Christians I interacted with had no idea what Apologetics even was,

971
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 1: and so I want to try to bring that awareness

972
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: to Look, there's good arguments for the existence of God,

973
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 1: there's good evidence out there, there's a ton of great

974
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: resources out there. This film in particular, my hope is

975
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 1: that it'll become more of like an evangelistic tool, so

976
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: that when you're out on the streets having conversations with people,

977
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 1: maybe you only have five minutes with them, but you

978
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: could direct them to watch a film, and the film

979
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 1: will hopefully direct you to the website. And the website

980
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 1: I've created a resource tab that has all of the

981
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: scholars in the film their ministries, and the hope is

982
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:42,640
Speaker 1: to direct people to Apologetics and challenge them to do

983
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 1: the research themselves and dig deeper into all of this.

984
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, whatever funds if the film makes, that's going

985
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: to go towards another project. I've got lots of ideas.

986
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to cover exactly what

987
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: they are yet, because I haven't decided on the one.

988
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: But that's the hope is that it'll make enough money

989
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: that I can continue to make these films.

990
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 2: Well, you don't have to release that here. As much

991
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 2: as I love to make breaking news, the most important

992
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 2: thing now is that we get this film out, We

993
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 2: get your expenses covered, and maybe we get some more

994
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 2: of a budget, maybe even a significant one, to set

995
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: you up to make more make more films like this,

996
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: and we need it, by the way, So kudos to

997
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 2: you have for taking a risk an act of faith

998
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 2: to build this. I can imagine people use it like

999
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 2: I'm gonna watch it with my thirteen year old son.

1000
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 2: I want him to see it. I can imagine youth

1001
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 2: groups using it. I used to teach a Bible class

1002
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: high school for years. I would have used it in

1003
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 2: my high school class. I can imagine church groups using it.

1004
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,720
Speaker 2: How do you think people can best use this film

1005
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 2: the way that you made it.

1006
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: I think watching it with friends and family that are

1007
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:56,360
Speaker 1: not believers is a great idea. I think watching it

1008
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: with friends and family that are believers but don't know

1009
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 1: anything about apologetics, I think it'd be a great opportunity

1010
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:04,440
Speaker 1: to go to your pastor and say, hey, can we

1011
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: do a movie night and screen this movie. I'll even

1012
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: have an option on the website shortly to where we

1013
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: can do church screenings. I think anything you can do

1014
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: to get this in front of people that you've been

1015
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: eying to have conversations with and you need something to

1016
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,440
Speaker 1: start the conversation, I think this is a great resource

1017
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: to do that good for you. And it's not the

1018
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: kind of thing Christians can be embarrassed about. The quality

1019
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 1: is top notch. And you interview tell us just quickly

1020
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: the full cast of people that you interview, so you're

1021
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: on there, believe it or not. We have Hugh Ross,

1022
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: I got Steven Meyer, Mike Mike Lacona, Alisa Childers, Alan Parr,

1023
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,319
Speaker 1: fuzz Rana also from Reasons to Believe. Let's see here.

1024
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: Who am I missing? Tons of other great people. The

1025
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: top of my head, it's gone blank as many times

1026
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:08,400
Speaker 1: as I've edited this film.

1027
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 2: No worries.

1028
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: So Hugh Ross. Frank Turrek is in there as well.

1029
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: Oh course he's the one who like contacted some of us.

1030
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: Really had to have him in there, and so it's

1031
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,279
Speaker 1: just it's crazy the people that I was able to

1032
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: get in and these were all the people that impacted me.

1033
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,760
Speaker 1: I mean all of you guys impacted me. The books

1034
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: that you guys wrote or are what really started to

1035
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 1: I was able to absorb and sink in and answer

1036
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: all the questions that I had. And it's just it's

1037
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: mind blowing to me. When I talked to someone and

1038
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: they don't know about this ministry, they don't know about

1039
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: apologetics inpreiated, I can't comprehend it. And so that's why

1040
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: when I was trying, because once I gave my life

1041
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 1: to Christ and like I said before, I was making

1042
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: horror films before this, and then I was struggled, can

1043
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 1: you make a Christian horror film? And then I was

1044
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what kind of film could I make?

1045
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: And that's what my wife came to me. She's like,

1046
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 1: you need to do a documentary on the evidence that

1047
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: convinced you it was true. And so that's what I'm doing.

1048
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: I want to help people to become aware of that fact,

1049
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: become aware of apologetics and the resources that are out there.

1050
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,839
Speaker 2: Well, Michael, I haven't met your wife. I'm not even

1051
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:23,120
Speaker 2: sure I've seen a picture of her, but she sounds

1052
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 2: like an iron in your life, bringing you to think

1053
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 2: about Jesus, encouraging you to take a risk with your

1054
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 2: resources and hers to build the kingdom. Keep going, my friend,

1055
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 2: I can't make movies like this, I don't know how.

1056
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 2: But I can write books, I can do interviews, I

1057
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 2: can do speaking some of the other stuff teaching that

1058
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 2: I do. But that's why I would argue in the

1059
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 2: Kingdom of God, we have different gifts that we can

1060
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,359
Speaker 2: bring to the table. And so, folks, if you're watching this,

1061
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 2: rent the video, buy the video, go to universedesign dot

1062
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 2: com and just support what Michael is doing. What a

1063
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 2: great opportunity to reach folks for the kingdom and equip believers.

1064
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 2: And while you're at it, make sure you hit subscribe.

1065
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 2: Quite a few of you who watch this video are

1066
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: not even subscribed and you haven't hit those notification buttons,

1067
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: So make sure you hit that. And if you're like,

1068
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 2: you know what, I really do want to go deeper,

1069
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 2: I'm motivated. We would love to have you in our

1070
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 2: apologetics program and our master's program, top rated online and

1071
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 2: in person. I teach a handful of those classes myself

1072
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 2: Informations Blow. We actually have a master's in science and

1073
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 2: religion alongside our apologetics program, which fits this theme. A

1074
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,919
Speaker 2: lot of people don't know about that. And one more

1075
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 2: thing is we also have a certificate program. We made

1076
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 2: it twenty years ago and just updated at Michael with

1077
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 2: some of the top scholars in the world giving lectures.

1078
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 2: We have assignments where you can just work through and

1079
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 2: learn apologetics if you're not ready for Masters, but then

1080
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 2: when it's done, we can funnel that into the Masters

1081
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Speaker 2: as I think maybe one or two credits something of

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Speaker 2: that gat. So with that said, great stuff, Michael, thanks

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Speaker 2: for coming on. Really enjoyed this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me Sean.

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Speaker 2: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

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Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

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Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to the Sean McDowell Show,

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Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

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Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops.