WEBVTT - 489 When Church Leaders Fall: Finding Faith After Scandal 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:08.840 Life Audio, Hello and welcome. We are so glad you 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:11.680 joined us. I am Milana, I'm here with Jamie. How 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:11.920 are you. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:13.240 I'm doing great. 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.279 This is a special joint episode. You know what would 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.080 be really silly is if we pretended that we were 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:23.480 joined by the co hosts of another really really cool 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.759 show and had like a four way conversation. But literally 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:28.840 it's just the two of us because technically we're the 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:30.640 co host of two different podcasts. 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:34.160 It's true, yeah, so we basically would have a conversation 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.559 with each other click we do every week and ourselves. 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.400 So welcome. Whether you are listening to us in the 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.160 Praying Christian Women Feed or the Christian Truo Crime Juckie 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:49.000 s Feed, We're so glad you joined us. We're doing 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.960 a combined episode and a slightly different format from both 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:57.640 shows today. Full transparency. Some of that is because of 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:59.600 the script that I thought I had ready for Christian 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:02.560 True Crime Junkies disappeared, so I didn't have a case ready. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:08.080 But we are in summer mode and lots of random 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.040 life things are popping up, and so we for sure 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.600 wanted to get this out there and figured it was 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.880 better to get something a little more unscripted out there 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:22.160 than wait until we had a perfect true crimes beginning 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.600 to end story to tell you about. And just so 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:28.920 you're aware, especially in the true Crime Junkies feed, we 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.560 are probably going to be going to a little more 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.399 sporadic just at least over June, so we might not 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.280 be quite every single week, but we will do our 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.240 best to stay as regular as we can. 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.760 Well, I'm going to say that if we had done 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.760 the thing that you said with misleading our listeners and 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:50.760 thinking there were like other hosts from other podcasts that 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.400 could be considered like kind of. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:57.040 Scandalous, would be a little bit scandalous. It might even 0:01:57.080 --> 0:01:59.400 be something that would get us canceled. 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.680 Not that those are you know, segues into our topic 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:06.160 or anything, but we. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:11.600 Don't care about Sigmunds, especially in our unscripted shows. No, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.520 we're going to be talking about church scandals, and we 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:17.600 will be presenting this a little bit more from the 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.760 Christian true crime junkie side. But the question is not 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.760 what's the most salacious church scandal we can tell you about? 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:28.240 It truly is more like what do you do when 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.880 you find yourself hurt because of a church scandal that 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:36.680 you were directly or indirectly or five times indirectly removed from, 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:39.120 which is why we're also going to put this up 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.400 on our Praying Christian womenfeed because my theory is that 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:48.840 you cannot be very involved in a church body for 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:54.400 decades of your adult life without getting hurt. And a 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:56.959 lot of us are not going to be untouched by 0:02:57.680 --> 0:02:59.960 a church scandal of some kind. 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.399 Yeah, we talk a lot about in our prayer lives, 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:07.639 in our day to day lives about being prepared. So 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:09.680 like in your prayer life, you want to kind of 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:14.400 fortify yourself and prepare yourself with resources for the times 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:18.080 when you're spiritually fragile, you know, and with the crime 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.960 stories we talk about, we talk about being prepared ahead 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.120 of time, educating yourself. And I just feel like this 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.640 topic is something that if we can look at it 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.480 when we are not fragile, like when we're not in it. 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.200 For those of us that are fortunate not to be 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:34.520 in the midst of a scandal right now from you know, 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.960 a hurtful thing, I think it can prepare us to 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:41.840 respond in a godly way, in a biblical way, in 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:46.000 a healthy way when it does eventually happen or maybe 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.760 for those who have experienced it to help them maybe 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.160 process some of those things in a more healthy way, 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:55.400 to kind of try to get healthier and move forward 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:56.400 in their lives. 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:01.040 Exactly. People who are outside of the church looking in 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:07.200 probably cannot understand the degree to which a church scandal 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:11.040 ripples across everybody. So, you know, let's take the very 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:16.200 most obvious, at least non mega church celebrity pastor scandal, 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.480 and that would be a pastor is accused of adultery 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.720 and the church is thrown into chaos because of it, 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.360 and the pastor has to resign. Outside looking in, it's 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:32.080 easy to say, oh, that's really hard for the pastor's family. 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.320 That's going to be hard for the people in the 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:38.640 church who are therefore required to step in and fill 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:43.000 in the pulpit and decide how to find another pastor. 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:46.760 And if you don't dig deeper, it kind of ends there, 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:48.960 and you don't think about the impact it has on 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.480 his family, on everybody in the church, people who hadn't 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:57.800 been to that church in ten years. But imagine you're 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:02.280 a kind of wavering belief and you've been away from 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.359 church for ten years and you find out that the 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.320 pastor who led you to Christ, you know, fell into sin, 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.599 and that could absolutely lead to a crisis of faith 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:17.480 in certain people. And let's come right out and say it. 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:23.440 The church is not good about handling victims of abuse 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:28.279 or scandal. I have friends who I'm friends actually with 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.280 both the wife and the daughter, and the husband slash 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:38.120 father was a pastor who committed adultery and resigned from 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:40.800 his position or respired. I wasn't around at that point 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.680 in time, but the kids and the whole family were shunned. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.560 It wasn't like, we are so sorry that your family 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:52.080 is going through this really really hard time. It was, oh, no, 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.120 you can't go play with little Sally not her real name, 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.640 because you know, we wouldn't want our precious little five 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.279 year old to catch adultery, you know, or to be 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:07.360 tainted by playing with you. So it has very huge 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:09.359 ripples that a lot of people don't think about. Or 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:15.839 maybe you're three times removed, right, So in this quasi 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:19.920 hypothetical case, maybe you're like now married to Sally and 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:22.560 you're watching all of this stuff that she went through 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:27.080 when she was a little girl, and you're wondering why 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:31.599 this is impacting your life now. So much, and you 0:06:31.680 --> 0:06:36.400 might be thinking, Oh, I shouldn't be dealing with this. 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.320 I'm so far removed from this. So many people got 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:43.240 hurt more than I ever have. This is minor in 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.760 comparison to other people have gone through, and so you 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:52.280 either feel guilty for not forgiving and moving on, or 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.400 you feel like maybe you're being self absorbed by still 0:06:58.000 --> 0:06:59.960 not being able to get over it, or maybe you're 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:04.840 like emotionally stunted because this is still an issue for you. 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.200 So I think it's a really important topic to discuss. 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.480 Yeah, I do think so, because, like you said, I 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.400 think people who have not been through a church scandal, 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.080 I kind of liken it to maybe someone who hasn't 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.920 been through a miscarriage. I don't think it's possible to 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:27.640 fully understand the impact it has until you've gone through it, 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.440 Like for me personally, Like I have not been through 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:35.920 a miscarriage, and I can understand in my brain like 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:40.120 how devastating that is and has to have been for 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.800 those who have been through it. But I fully am 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:46.920 aware that I can't allow, like I there's something that 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:51.119 doesn't allow me to process the depth of that pain 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.600 and internalize it because I know it's so painful. I 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.880 think it's similar with someone who hasn't been through the 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.640 church scandal thing. I think you can be outside of 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:05.080 it and just not quite process the extent to which 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.680 the betrayal goes. I just think of when my car 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.520 was you know, I left the doors unlocked and someone 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.960 rifled through my dad's car when I was a kid, 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:18.080 and how deeply violated I felt from that small thing, 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.040 and then thinking extrapolating like someone who's had their entire 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.960 home ransacked and you know, or been violated in other ways. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:29.480 Like basically all what I'm saying is I think talking 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:31.920 about it is important because I think we need to 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:37.720 validate the ripple effects of church scandals and also like 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:42.280 educate people that don't quite understand, maybe and so that 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.240 they can prepare themselves ahead of time. 0:08:45.840 --> 0:08:50.800 Yeah, I think that the one way that people can 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.040 empathize even if they haven't gone through. And this is 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:58.200 just me speaking from my experience, but memoir really helps 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:02.160 me to like live it in someone's shoes more than 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:08.480 most other mediums deal. I think my favorite church scandal memoir, 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.400 which sounds like a phrase I never expected to say, 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:15.880 but when I definitely recommend it's called Why I Stayed, 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:20.640 And her name is Gail, and you would likely I 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.400 forget her last name, you would likely maybe you could 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.040 look it up all I'm telling you about it, you 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:28.360 would likely recognize the name of her and her husband. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.920 But he was very high up in an evangelical Christian 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:40.240 association and was accused of lots of sexual immorality. And 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:46.319 her memoir, obviously called Why I Stayed is partially her 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.920 explanation for why, even though she had biblical grounds of 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.959 where she didn't. But even more so, it really opened 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.959 my eyes to how Christians treated her and her family 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.280 who were the very most in need of love and support. 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:05.560 Is it Gail Haggard? Yes? Yes? What's her husband's name, 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.480 Ted Haggard? Do you remember his story? Does that name 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.480 ring a bell to you? This would have been a 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:12.800 decade or two ago. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.480 Yes, And I so it's the New Life Church in 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:20.880 Colorado Springs. I'm trying to place him because the name 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:22.000 sounds familiar. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:29.480 Yeah, you know, sadly scandals like this, specifically with sexual immorality, 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:37.640 and again sadly immorality that is even more outside the 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:42.840 realms of I committed adultery with a heterosexual consensual partner 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:48.040 are getting more and more common, and I think we 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:52.440 have multiple ways to look at this. I think the 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.559 worst way to look at it is all Christians are terrible. 0:10:55.679 --> 0:11:00.439 You cannot trust anybody. People are sick and disgusting. So 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:02.760 we don't want to go all the way over there. 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:08.120 We absolutely you and I are never in any public 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:15.640 forum going to ever condone covering up sins against victims 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:19.880 for the sake of keeping up appearances or anything like that. 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:24.480 And sometimes the worst crime is the cover up, and 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:29.960 sometimes you get entire denominations complicit in that. And for 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:31.880 people who need to hear it, I am not talking 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.960 solely about the Catholic Church, although that's where I think 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:39.439 this first ripple of hearing about some of these scandals 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:44.559 came up. But there are many other Protestant denominations as 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:48.520 well that are accused in very heinous ways of having 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.679 widespread knowledge of not only pastors who have fallen into 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.640 the sexual sin of consensual adultery, but pastors who are 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.120 predators and should not be behind a pulpit and should 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:04.800 likely be in prison, and they are being shielded and 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.000 protected by their denomination. 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:08.960 And often promoted and lauded. 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:10.559 Yeah, is sick. 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:14.040 Yeah, like you said, the name the denomination, and there's 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.360 been scandal, and some of it has been extremely public, 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.079 some of it's been you know a little bit more 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:24.160 here and there. But the thing that I has kind 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:28.760 of opened my eyes was our conversation about adult clergy 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:33.600 sexual abuse, which makes me look at quote adultery from 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.880 the pulpit in a different way. And I truly do 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.840 believe that there are cases where there are you know, 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:45.160 pastors who have congregants that maybe there is. 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.240 Mutual consensual stuff going on. 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:52.559 That's simply you could probably categorize it as an affair. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.800 But when you have that power gradient, it always it 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:02.319 just needs to be like looked at more closely. And 0:13:03.920 --> 0:13:07.760 it just makes me wonder where the line is there. 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.440 And I know there are some people that would say 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:15.480 where there is a power gradient, it's always abuse, and 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:20.600 I don't know, Like I mean, I definitely believe it's 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:25.240 unwise always, But when you have like pastors getting married 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:28.720 to people that weren't their wives before, I don't know. 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:31.440 I just I wonder what the line is there. And 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.640 I know that's a different conversation. I would encourage our 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.800 listeners to go back to the Christian True Crime Junkies 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:42.199 episode on adult clergy sexual abuse, which I don't remember 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.319 the exact episode, but we do have a really good 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.240 conversation that when I hear some of these high profile 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.760 cases coming out and it's adultery or he stumbled, some 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:56.120 of these victims are coming out later and claiming that 0:13:56.240 --> 0:14:03.439 they were actually you know, like abuse, ruins, abused, exploited 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.680 and then basically thrown away by the church and vilified 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.880 and made to look like temptresses or something that came 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:16.240 and caused this upstanding man of God to stumble and 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.080 tools of the devil, while these guys go and get 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:23.640 promoted and they're shunned and basically you know, turned away. 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:28.320 So I believe there's my personal belief is there's a spectrum. 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:32.400 You know, I think there's absolutely a spectrum of how 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.960 this happens behind the scenes. But I just really I 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.440 think that when the word affair comes up, I think 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:40.520 we need to look a little bit more carefully into 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.720 is this really just a case of a stumble or 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.080 is this a predator? Is this person grooming people and 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:51.000 praying on people? 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.600 Yeah, And just to add one more level of nuance, 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:13.360 sometimes a pastor will be prey to a seductress. Right, 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:19.800 there's a certain personality type that wants to exert power 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:25.560 by kind of sexually tempting the one person who's supposed 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:29.800 to be the least possible to tempt. So there's never 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.560 a clear one size fits all. I think it's going 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.520 to go from every extreme. It's going to go from 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.920 the extreme of two consenting adults who are still actively 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:46.080 engaged in a very sinful activity to a male pastor 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:52.720 in authority abusing that power and manipulating women to sleep 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.360 with him. And on the opposite side of that, or 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.240 maybe like the full circle side of that, is the 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:05.360 woman who sees the pastor as the mount everest of conquests. 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:06.840 And it's sort of like, well, if I can make 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.920 my pastor fall into sin, then you know I've got 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:15.360 all the power in the world and everything in between. 0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:17.760 And then you know, let's also go ahead and say 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:22.200 there's absolutely criminal activity that would be outside of all 0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:24.240 of those scenarios. I don't think we even need to 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:29.000 go into like debating whether or not those are appropriates 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.760 or not. Now. I love that you included a just 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.000 for fun question for this like very very heavy topic, 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.360 and it actually is like a pretty fun question. So 0:16:40.440 --> 0:16:43.640 before we go any deeper, and just for our heads up, 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:45.000 so you can be thinking, I do want to know 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.040 if you've been touched by any type of scandal like this, 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.880 but before we dive into that are actual fun just 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.320 for fun question, is what Bible character would absolutely get 0:16:55.360 --> 0:17:00.800 canceled today for their behavior? David, Yeah, he's a I mean, 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.680 there is no way around it. Okay, adultery is bad enough. 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.639 We have no idea how willing bath Sheba was. The 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.639 Bible is totally silent on that, so we can only guess, 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.480 but at the very best we can call it adultery 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:22.360 and then like murder line, cover up. And I am 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.480 just floored because he would be so vilified today, and 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:29.439 most of us listening would probably if we didn't know 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.000 it was King David would be like, well, yeah, rightly. 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:34.280 So like if I came to you and I said, like, 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.400 I listened to this beautiful worship song it's by this 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.320 really cool pastor he's got this like funky story, or 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:46.479 like he sucked with this woman that he saw out 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.719 bathing and then he ordered her husband to be killed 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:51.800 so he could marry her. And the song is so 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.960 beautiful listen to it. You would probably look at me 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:59.960 like what has happens to my friend? So yeah, handstand 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.440 know there is I mean, there's a lot of people 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.959 who would get canceled and milified, but nobody quicker than David. 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.199 And I think it makes the question would we be 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.280 wrong to be like, no, this man cannot preach and 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:16.760 write hymns for our churches today? Like do that a 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:17.399 wrong reaction? 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.199 Yeah, that's a really interesting I had never I had 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.040 always looked at Oh, yeah, David was imperfect. He did 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.200 these terrible, sinful things, and yet he was a man 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.320 after God's own heart. But we read his psalms and 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:35.359 we still allow him to guide us in biblical authority 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:41.359 when we have this thing New Testament, and you know, basically, 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.040 if your house isn't in order, if you're you know, 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.760 I don't know if it's you're currently living in center. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.400 Maybe because he was repentant and put those ways behind him. 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:56.040 I don't know. It's interesting. It's an interesting thing to 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.080 bring up. And speaking of New Testament, I think Paul 0:18:59.119 --> 0:18:59.760 would be canceled. 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:00.119 Today. 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.719 Women are to be silent, women are toware coverings, no jewelry, 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:09.399 and men do whatever you want now, I mean, I 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.359 don't know. Yeah, there are some cultural nuances that he 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.679 said that that I think would cause him to be 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:21.520 canceled in our you know, modern church. 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:25.639 It would be funny to go through you and I 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:27.679 did it once. We did a true crime episode on 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:29.919 the Stony of Stephen. But it would be fun to 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.359 retell some of these, like very well known Bible stories 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:39.240 in the style of a true crime episode, you. 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.040 Know, Yeah, and see if you could guess, yeah, see 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.080 if you could guess the the person. 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.160 Yeah, or even just be thinking about it in such 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:50.520 a different way to be like, oh, this actually is 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:55.760 weird to be singing songs by somebody who did all 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.040 of these terrible things. And I'm not gonna cancel David, 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.120 and I'm not going to can soil Hillsong or any 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.199 of these other denominations or movements that we're probably going 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.560 to talk about and maybe name my name, which I 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.120 just did, who have had stuff come up about them 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:16.080 that is problematic. You and I recorded it must have 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.920 been for praying Christian women. We recorded an episode on 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:21.800 what do you do with the music of somebody who 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:25.359 has fallen into scandal? Yeah? And I think you were 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:27.720 a tiny bit surprised that I was so lenient. I 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:32.320 was like, well, if you do start censoring every single 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:36.360 songwriter based on their personal life, that leaves you with nobody. 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:39.120 Yeah, And though that was such a good point because 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:41.119 You're like, I have strong feelings on this, so I 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:43.560 figured you're very much on the other side of it. 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.600 So that was a really good point. And I love 0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:50.359 the perspective of David being you know, I mean, we 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.640 have for praying Christian women, we have prayer through the psalms, right, 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.640 and I've fallen in love with David's Psalms, and here 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:01.200 he is like about as sinful as it gets. 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:04.679 But yes, so are you ready to wrap up our 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.520 just for frond segment? Are you ready for the dumbest 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.680 Bible nerd joke that I came up with all by 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:13.480 myself And I am so proud. 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:15.359 Of I'm really impressed. I've got to hear it. 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:18.480 I gotta hear it. Hey, what did the ear nose 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:22.800 and throat doctor say to the psalmist when he came 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:29.920 in a hoarse voice? What say law? Did it take 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:35.520 you a second? It did? I'm like, say what I say? Law? 0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:36.240 That's good. 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:40.240 I was pretty proud of myself. Anyways, pretty that is impressive. 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.320 You need to start. You've been telling jokes on our 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:49.320 We need to create like a true crime praying Christian 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.600 women like a lot of joke book, because you've you've 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.000 been telling some some like corny jokes, but that are funny. 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:58.399 So you know what, there is nothing better than a 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:00.639 corny joke. I mean, there are lots things better than 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.400 a corny joke, but corny jokes are still pretty good. 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:05.720 I love corny jokes and puns. 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:12.359 All right, So tell me, have you ever been touched 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:14.840 or what's the closest you've been touched by a church 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:18.399 scandal along the scope of what we're discussing. I would say. 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:24.639 Probably a member of a congregation I was part of. 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:29.560 After I left that congregation, there was a very disturbing 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:36.720 arrest of a prominent member of our congregation. And yeah, 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.480 that was shocking and I wasn't even part of the 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:44.560 church anymore. Yeah, and I just remember, like my world 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:49.680 was crushed, Like my worldview. I like, you know, grew 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:55.119 up around this person, and he was an amazing father. 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:58.920 He seemed like the perfect husband. Like I was envious 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:02.239 of their relationship growing up. I was like, Man, I 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.720 hope my marriage is like that, And so it just 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:09.560 made me realize the like I feel like I'm not. 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:12.399 I mean, in some ways I'm gullible, like jokes my 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:14.640 kids will tell me and stuff. But when it comes 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:19.000 to people, I feel like I can be discerning. I 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.000 am an optimist, but I also feel like I can 0:23:22.080 --> 0:23:25.800 catch a something's off vibe. You know, at least I 0:23:25.840 --> 0:23:30.000 gave myself that that knowledge. So while it didn't affect 0:23:30.000 --> 0:23:32.320 my day to day because I had since gotten married 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:36.840 and moved on with life, it was shattering, like it 0:23:37.000 --> 0:23:42.480 shattered my sense of reality for that to be possible. 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.360 M hmm. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:48.879 more about that for somebody who's looking in and I 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:54.560 totally get it, but pretend I have never gone to church, 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:56.680 and I'm like, well, you weren't even at this church. 0:23:56.760 --> 0:24:01.919 This person never hurt you specifically or anybody hopefully that 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.320 you knew or cared too much about. That sounded kind 0:24:05.320 --> 0:24:08.680 of bad, but you know what I'm saying. So why 0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:14.560 would this shake your faith when it didn't directly impact 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:17.399 you and people that were the closest to you. 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.560 I think it is because for someone who isn't part 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:23.280 of a church, or who never has been your church 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:27.040 many times becomes like your extended family. You know, we 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.160 didn't just see them once a week. We saw these 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:34.560 people all the time. And church, I think is a 0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:39.800 safe place. We go there because we expect that everyone, 0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:44.879 even though we ourselves are inherently sinful and imperfect. I 0:24:44.880 --> 0:24:48.240 think we go there and expect that the collective body 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:53.919 is out for everyone's good. And I think that that 0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:58.320 safety and that like what you consider to be transparency, 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:01.679 because think of like a Sunday school class or you know, 0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.679 when you're sharing conversation with people, it tends to be 0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:07.320 on a deeper level than a water cooler. You're talking 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:10.320 about spiritual things. You're talking about your life, you're talking 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:13.920 about your you know, desire to be more like Jesus. 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:16.800 A lot of times you're vulnerable and you're sharing things, 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:19.919