Speaker 1: Life Audio, Hello and welcome. We are so glad you
Speaker 1: joined us. I am Milana, I'm here with Jamie. How
Speaker 1: are you.
Speaker 2: I'm doing great.
Speaker 1: This is a special joint episode. You know what would
Speaker 1: be really silly is if we pretended that we were
Speaker 1: joined by the co hosts of another really really cool
Speaker 1: show and had like a four way conversation. But literally
Speaker 1: it's just the two of us because technically we're the
Speaker 1: co host of two different podcasts.
Speaker 2: It's true, yeah, so we basically would have a conversation
Speaker 2: with each other click we do every week and ourselves.
Speaker 1: So welcome. Whether you are listening to us in the
Speaker 1: Praying Christian Women Feed or the Christian Truo Crime Juckie
Speaker 1: s Feed, We're so glad you joined us. We're doing
Speaker 1: a combined episode and a slightly different format from both
Speaker 1: shows today. Full transparency. Some of that is because of
Speaker 1: the script that I thought I had ready for Christian
Speaker 1: True Crime Junkies disappeared, so I didn't have a case ready.
Speaker 1: But we are in summer mode and lots of random
Speaker 1: life things are popping up, and so we for sure
Speaker 1: wanted to get this out there and figured it was
Speaker 1: better to get something a little more unscripted out there
Speaker 1: than wait until we had a perfect true crimes beginning
Speaker 1: to end story to tell you about. And just so
Speaker 1: you're aware, especially in the true Crime Junkies feed, we
Speaker 1: are probably going to be going to a little more
Speaker 1: sporadic just at least over June, so we might not
Speaker 1: be quite every single week, but we will do our
Speaker 1: best to stay as regular as we can.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to say that if we had done
Speaker 2: the thing that you said with misleading our listeners and
Speaker 2: thinking there were like other hosts from other podcasts that
Speaker 2: could be considered like kind of.
Speaker 1: Scandalous, would be a little bit scandalous. It might even
Speaker 1: be something that would get us canceled.
Speaker 2: Not that those are you know, segues into our topic
Speaker 2: or anything, but we.
Speaker 1: Don't care about Sigmunds, especially in our unscripted shows. No,
Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about church scandals, and we
Speaker 1: will be presenting this a little bit more from the
Speaker 1: Christian true crime junkie side. But the question is not
Speaker 1: what's the most salacious church scandal we can tell you about?
Speaker 1: It truly is more like what do you do when
Speaker 1: you find yourself hurt because of a church scandal that
Speaker 1: you were directly or indirectly or five times indirectly removed from,
Speaker 1: which is why we're also going to put this up
Speaker 1: on our Praying Christian womenfeed because my theory is that
Speaker 1: you cannot be very involved in a church body for
Speaker 1: decades of your adult life without getting hurt. And a
Speaker 1: lot of us are not going to be untouched by
Speaker 1: a church scandal of some kind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk a lot about in our prayer lives,
Speaker 2: in our day to day lives about being prepared. So
Speaker 2: like in your prayer life, you want to kind of
Speaker 2: fortify yourself and prepare yourself with resources for the times
Speaker 2: when you're spiritually fragile, you know, and with the crime
Speaker 2: stories we talk about, we talk about being prepared ahead
Speaker 2: of time, educating yourself. And I just feel like this
Speaker 2: topic is something that if we can look at it
Speaker 2: when we are not fragile, like when we're not in it.
Speaker 2: For those of us that are fortunate not to be
Speaker 2: in the midst of a scandal right now from you know,
Speaker 2: a hurtful thing, I think it can prepare us to
Speaker 2: respond in a godly way, in a biblical way, in
Speaker 2: a healthy way when it does eventually happen or maybe
Speaker 2: for those who have experienced it to help them maybe
Speaker 2: process some of those things in a more healthy way,
Speaker 2: to kind of try to get healthier and move forward
Speaker 2: in their lives.
Speaker 1: Exactly. People who are outside of the church looking in
Speaker 1: probably cannot understand the degree to which a church scandal
Speaker 1: ripples across everybody. So, you know, let's take the very
Speaker 1: most obvious, at least non mega church celebrity pastor scandal,
Speaker 1: and that would be a pastor is accused of adultery
Speaker 1: and the church is thrown into chaos because of it,
Speaker 1: and the pastor has to resign. Outside looking in, it's
Speaker 1: easy to say, oh, that's really hard for the pastor's family.
Speaker 1: That's going to be hard for the people in the
Speaker 1: church who are therefore required to step in and fill
Speaker 1: in the pulpit and decide how to find another pastor.
Speaker 1: And if you don't dig deeper, it kind of ends there,
Speaker 1: and you don't think about the impact it has on
Speaker 1: his family, on everybody in the church, people who hadn't
Speaker 1: been to that church in ten years. But imagine you're
Speaker 1: a kind of wavering belief and you've been away from
Speaker 1: church for ten years and you find out that the
Speaker 1: pastor who led you to Christ, you know, fell into sin,
Speaker 1: and that could absolutely lead to a crisis of faith
Speaker 1: in certain people. And let's come right out and say it.
Speaker 1: The church is not good about handling victims of abuse
Speaker 1: or scandal. I have friends who I'm friends actually with
Speaker 1: both the wife and the daughter, and the husband slash
Speaker 1: father was a pastor who committed adultery and resigned from
Speaker 1: his position or respired. I wasn't around at that point
Speaker 1: in time, but the kids and the whole family were shunned.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like, we are so sorry that your family
Speaker 1: is going through this really really hard time. It was, oh, no,
Speaker 1: you can't go play with little Sally not her real name,
Speaker 1: because you know, we wouldn't want our precious little five
Speaker 1: year old to catch adultery, you know, or to be
Speaker 1: tainted by playing with you. So it has very huge
Speaker 1: ripples that a lot of people don't think about. Or
Speaker 1: maybe you're three times removed, right, So in this quasi
Speaker 1: hypothetical case, maybe you're like now married to Sally and
Speaker 1: you're watching all of this stuff that she went through
Speaker 1: when she was a little girl, and you're wondering why
Speaker 1: this is impacting your life now. So much, and you
Speaker 1: might be thinking, Oh, I shouldn't be dealing with this.
Speaker 1: I'm so far removed from this. So many people got
Speaker 1: hurt more than I ever have. This is minor in
Speaker 1: comparison to other people have gone through, and so you
Speaker 1: either feel guilty for not forgiving and moving on, or
Speaker 1: you feel like maybe you're being self absorbed by still
Speaker 1: not being able to get over it, or maybe you're
Speaker 1: like emotionally stunted because this is still an issue for you.
Speaker 1: So I think it's a really important topic to discuss.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think so, because, like you said, I
Speaker 2: think people who have not been through a church scandal,
Speaker 2: I kind of liken it to maybe someone who hasn't
Speaker 2: been through a miscarriage. I don't think it's possible to
Speaker 2: fully understand the impact it has until you've gone through it,
Speaker 2: Like for me personally, Like I have not been through
Speaker 2: a miscarriage, and I can understand in my brain like
Speaker 2: how devastating that is and has to have been for
Speaker 2: those who have been through it. But I fully am
Speaker 2: aware that I can't allow, like I there's something that
Speaker 2: doesn't allow me to process the depth of that pain
Speaker 2: and internalize it because I know it's so painful. I
Speaker 2: think it's similar with someone who hasn't been through the
Speaker 2: church scandal thing. I think you can be outside of
Speaker 2: it and just not quite process the extent to which
Speaker 2: the betrayal goes. I just think of when my car
Speaker 2: was you know, I left the doors unlocked and someone
Speaker 2: rifled through my dad's car when I was a kid,
Speaker 2: and how deeply violated I felt from that small thing,
Speaker 2: and then thinking extrapolating like someone who's had their entire
Speaker 2: home ransacked and you know, or been violated in other ways.
Speaker 2: Like basically all what I'm saying is I think talking
Speaker 2: about it is important because I think we need to
Speaker 2: validate the ripple effects of church scandals and also like
Speaker 2: educate people that don't quite understand, maybe and so that
Speaker 2: they can prepare themselves ahead of time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the one way that people can
Speaker 1: empathize even if they haven't gone through. And this is
Speaker 1: just me speaking from my experience, but memoir really helps
Speaker 1: me to like live it in someone's shoes more than
Speaker 1: most other mediums deal. I think my favorite church scandal memoir,
Speaker 1: which sounds like a phrase I never expected to say,
Speaker 1: but when I definitely recommend it's called Why I Stayed,
Speaker 1: And her name is Gail, and you would likely I
Speaker 1: forget her last name, you would likely maybe you could
Speaker 1: look it up all I'm telling you about it, you
Speaker 1: would likely recognize the name of her and her husband.
Speaker 1: But he was very high up in an evangelical Christian
Speaker 1: association and was accused of lots of sexual immorality. And
Speaker 1: her memoir, obviously called Why I Stayed is partially her
Speaker 1: explanation for why, even though she had biblical grounds of
Speaker 1: where she didn't. But even more so, it really opened
Speaker 1: my eyes to how Christians treated her and her family
Speaker 1: who were the very most in need of love and support.
Speaker 1: Is it Gail Haggard? Yes? Yes? What's her husband's name,
Speaker 1: Ted Haggard? Do you remember his story? Does that name
Speaker 1: ring a bell to you? This would have been a
Speaker 1: decade or two ago.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I so it's the New Life Church in
Speaker 2: Colorado Springs. I'm trying to place him because the name
Speaker 2: sounds familiar.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, sadly scandals like this, specifically with sexual immorality,
Speaker 1: and again sadly immorality that is even more outside the
Speaker 1: realms of I committed adultery with a heterosexual consensual partner
Speaker 1: are getting more and more common, and I think we
Speaker 1: have multiple ways to look at this. I think the
Speaker 1: worst way to look at it is all Christians are terrible.
Speaker 1: You cannot trust anybody. People are sick and disgusting. So
Speaker 1: we don't want to go all the way over there.
Speaker 1: We absolutely you and I are never in any public
Speaker 1: forum going to ever condone covering up sins against victims
Speaker 1: for the sake of keeping up appearances or anything like that.
Speaker 1: And sometimes the worst crime is the cover up, and
Speaker 1: sometimes you get entire denominations complicit in that. And for
Speaker 1: people who need to hear it, I am not talking
Speaker 1: solely about the Catholic Church, although that's where I think
Speaker 1: this first ripple of hearing about some of these scandals
Speaker 1: came up. But there are many other Protestant denominations as
Speaker 1: well that are accused in very heinous ways of having
Speaker 1: widespread knowledge of not only pastors who have fallen into
Speaker 1: the sexual sin of consensual adultery, but pastors who are
Speaker 1: predators and should not be behind a pulpit and should
Speaker 1: likely be in prison, and they are being shielded and
Speaker 1: protected by their denomination.
Speaker 2: And often promoted and lauded.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is sick.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, the name the denomination, and there's
Speaker 2: been scandal, and some of it has been extremely public,
Speaker 2: some of it's been you know a little bit more
Speaker 2: here and there. But the thing that I has kind
Speaker 2: of opened my eyes was our conversation about adult clergy
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, which makes me look at quote adultery from
Speaker 2: the pulpit in a different way. And I truly do
Speaker 2: believe that there are cases where there are you know,
Speaker 2: pastors who have congregants that maybe there is.
Speaker 1: Mutual consensual stuff going on.
Speaker 2: That's simply you could probably categorize it as an affair.
Speaker 2: But when you have that power gradient, it always it
Speaker 2: just needs to be like looked at more closely. And
Speaker 2: it just makes me wonder where the line is there.
Speaker 2: And I know there are some people that would say
Speaker 2: where there is a power gradient, it's always abuse, and
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like I mean, I definitely believe it's
Speaker 2: unwise always, But when you have like pastors getting married
Speaker 2: to people that weren't their wives before, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just I wonder what the line is there. And
Speaker 2: I know that's a different conversation. I would encourage our
Speaker 2: listeners to go back to the Christian True Crime Junkies
Speaker 2: episode on adult clergy sexual abuse, which I don't remember
Speaker 2: the exact episode, but we do have a really good
Speaker 2: conversation that when I hear some of these high profile
Speaker 2: cases coming out and it's adultery or he stumbled, some
Speaker 2: of these victims are coming out later and claiming that
Speaker 2: they were actually you know, like abuse, ruins, abused, exploited
Speaker 2: and then basically thrown away by the church and vilified
Speaker 2: and made to look like temptresses or something that came
Speaker 2: and caused this upstanding man of God to stumble and
Speaker 2: tools of the devil, while these guys go and get
Speaker 2: promoted and they're shunned and basically you know, turned away.
Speaker 2: So I believe there's my personal belief is there's a spectrum.
Speaker 2: You know, I think there's absolutely a spectrum of how
Speaker 2: this happens behind the scenes. But I just really I
Speaker 2: think that when the word affair comes up, I think
Speaker 2: we need to look a little bit more carefully into
Speaker 2: is this really just a case of a stumble or
Speaker 2: is this a predator? Is this person grooming people and
Speaker 2: praying on people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to add one more level of nuance,
Speaker 1: sometimes a pastor will be prey to a seductress. Right,
Speaker 1: there's a certain personality type that wants to exert power
Speaker 1: by kind of sexually tempting the one person who's supposed
Speaker 1: to be the least possible to tempt. So there's never
Speaker 1: a clear one size fits all. I think it's going
Speaker 1: to go from every extreme. It's going to go from
Speaker 1: the extreme of two consenting adults who are still actively
Speaker 1: engaged in a very sinful activity to a male pastor
Speaker 1: in authority abusing that power and manipulating women to sleep
Speaker 1: with him. And on the opposite side of that, or
Speaker 1: maybe like the full circle side of that, is the
Speaker 1: woman who sees the pastor as the mount everest of conquests.
Speaker 1: And it's sort of like, well, if I can make
Speaker 1: my pastor fall into sin, then you know I've got
Speaker 1: all the power in the world and everything in between.
Speaker 1: And then you know, let's also go ahead and say
Speaker 1: there's absolutely criminal activity that would be outside of all
Speaker 1: of those scenarios. I don't think we even need to
Speaker 1: go into like debating whether or not those are appropriates
Speaker 1: or not. Now. I love that you included a just
Speaker 1: for fun question for this like very very heavy topic,
Speaker 1: and it actually is like a pretty fun question. So
Speaker 1: before we go any deeper, and just for our heads up,
Speaker 1: so you can be thinking, I do want to know
Speaker 1: if you've been touched by any type of scandal like this,
Speaker 1: but before we dive into that are actual fun just
Speaker 1: for fun question, is what Bible character would absolutely get
Speaker 1: canceled today for their behavior? David, Yeah, he's a I mean,
Speaker 1: there is no way around it. Okay, adultery is bad enough.
Speaker 1: We have no idea how willing bath Sheba was. The
Speaker 1: Bible is totally silent on that, so we can only guess,
Speaker 1: but at the very best we can call it adultery
Speaker 1: and then like murder line, cover up. And I am
Speaker 1: just floored because he would be so vilified today, and
Speaker 1: most of us listening would probably if we didn't know
Speaker 1: it was King David would be like, well, yeah, rightly.
Speaker 1: So like if I came to you and I said, like,
Speaker 1: I listened to this beautiful worship song it's by this
Speaker 1: really cool pastor he's got this like funky story, or
Speaker 1: like he sucked with this woman that he saw out
Speaker 1: bathing and then he ordered her husband to be killed
Speaker 1: so he could marry her. And the song is so
Speaker 1: beautiful listen to it. You would probably look at me
Speaker 1: like what has happens to my friend? So yeah, handstand
Speaker 1: know there is I mean, there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: who would get canceled and milified, but nobody quicker than David.
Speaker 1: And I think it makes the question would we be
Speaker 1: wrong to be like, no, this man cannot preach and
Speaker 1: write hymns for our churches today? Like do that a
Speaker 1: wrong reaction?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting I had never I had
Speaker 2: always looked at Oh, yeah, David was imperfect. He did
Speaker 2: these terrible, sinful things, and yet he was a man
Speaker 2: after God's own heart. But we read his psalms and
Speaker 2: we still allow him to guide us in biblical authority
Speaker 2: when we have this thing New Testament, and you know, basically,
Speaker 2: if your house isn't in order, if you're you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's you're currently living in center.
Speaker 2: Maybe because he was repentant and put those ways behind him.
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's interesting. It's an interesting thing to
Speaker 2: bring up. And speaking of New Testament, I think Paul
Speaker 2: would be canceled.
Speaker 1: Today.
Speaker 2: Women are to be silent, women are toware coverings, no jewelry,
Speaker 2: and men do whatever you want now, I mean, I
Speaker 2: don't know. Yeah, there are some cultural nuances that he
Speaker 2: said that that I think would cause him to be
Speaker 2: canceled in our you know, modern church.
Speaker 1: It would be funny to go through you and I
Speaker 1: did it once. We did a true crime episode on
Speaker 1: the Stony of Stephen. But it would be fun to
Speaker 1: retell some of these, like very well known Bible stories
Speaker 1: in the style of a true crime episode, you.
Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, and see if you could guess, yeah, see
Speaker 2: if you could guess the the person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, or even just be thinking about it in such
Speaker 1: a different way to be like, oh, this actually is
Speaker 1: weird to be singing songs by somebody who did all
Speaker 1: of these terrible things. And I'm not gonna cancel David,
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to can soil Hillsong or any
Speaker 1: of these other denominations or movements that we're probably going
Speaker 1: to talk about and maybe name my name, which I
Speaker 1: just did, who have had stuff come up about them
Speaker 1: that is problematic. You and I recorded it must have
Speaker 1: been for praying Christian women. We recorded an episode on
Speaker 1: what do you do with the music of somebody who
Speaker 1: has fallen into scandal? Yeah? And I think you were
Speaker 1: a tiny bit surprised that I was so lenient. I
Speaker 1: was like, well, if you do start censoring every single
Speaker 1: songwriter based on their personal life, that leaves you with nobody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And though that was such a good point because
Speaker 2: You're like, I have strong feelings on this, so I
Speaker 2: figured you're very much on the other side of it.
Speaker 2: So that was a really good point. And I love
Speaker 2: the perspective of David being you know, I mean, we
Speaker 2: have for praying Christian women, we have prayer through the psalms, right,
Speaker 2: and I've fallen in love with David's Psalms, and here
Speaker 2: he is like about as sinful as it gets.
Speaker 1: But yes, so are you ready to wrap up our
Speaker 1: just for frond segment? Are you ready for the dumbest
Speaker 1: Bible nerd joke that I came up with all by
Speaker 1: myself And I am so proud.
Speaker 2: Of I'm really impressed. I've got to hear it.
Speaker 1: I gotta hear it. Hey, what did the ear nose
Speaker 1: and throat doctor say to the psalmist when he came
Speaker 1: in a hoarse voice? What say law? Did it take
Speaker 1: you a second? It did? I'm like, say what I say? Law?
Speaker 2: That's good.
Speaker 1: I was pretty proud of myself. Anyways, pretty that is impressive.
Speaker 2: You need to start. You've been telling jokes on our
Speaker 2: We need to create like a true crime praying Christian
Speaker 2: women like a lot of joke book, because you've you've
Speaker 2: been telling some some like corny jokes, but that are funny.
Speaker 1: So you know what, there is nothing better than a
Speaker 1: corny joke. I mean, there are lots things better than
Speaker 1: a corny joke, but corny jokes are still pretty good.
Speaker 2: I love corny jokes and puns.
Speaker 1: All right, So tell me, have you ever been touched
Speaker 1: or what's the closest you've been touched by a church
Speaker 1: scandal along the scope of what we're discussing. I would say.
Speaker 2: Probably a member of a congregation I was part of.
Speaker 2: After I left that congregation, there was a very disturbing
Speaker 2: arrest of a prominent member of our congregation. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that was shocking and I wasn't even part of the
Speaker 2: church anymore. Yeah, and I just remember, like my world
Speaker 2: was crushed, Like my worldview. I like, you know, grew
Speaker 2: up around this person, and he was an amazing father.
Speaker 2: He seemed like the perfect husband. Like I was envious
Speaker 2: of their relationship growing up. I was like, Man, I
Speaker 2: hope my marriage is like that, And so it just
Speaker 2: made me realize the like I feel like I'm not.
Speaker 2: I mean, in some ways I'm gullible, like jokes my
Speaker 2: kids will tell me and stuff. But when it comes
Speaker 2: to people, I feel like I can be discerning. I
Speaker 2: am an optimist, but I also feel like I can
Speaker 2: catch a something's off vibe. You know, at least I
Speaker 2: gave myself that that knowledge. So while it didn't affect
Speaker 2: my day to day because I had since gotten married
Speaker 2: and moved on with life, it was shattering, like it
Speaker 2: shattered my sense of reality for that to be possible.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: more about that for somebody who's looking in and I
Speaker 1: totally get it, but pretend I have never gone to church,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, you weren't even at this church.
Speaker 1: This person never hurt you specifically or anybody hopefully that
Speaker 1: you knew or cared too much about. That sounded kind
Speaker 1: of bad, but you know what I'm saying. So why
Speaker 1: would this shake your faith when it didn't directly impact
Speaker 1: you and people that were the closest to you.
Speaker 2: I think it is because for someone who isn't part
Speaker 2: of a church, or who never has been your church
Speaker 2: many times becomes like your extended family. You know, we
Speaker 2: didn't just see them once a week. We saw these
Speaker 2: people all the time. And church, I think is a
Speaker 2: safe place. We go there because we expect that everyone,
Speaker 2: even though we ourselves are inherently sinful and imperfect. I
Speaker 2: think we go there and expect that the collective body
Speaker 2: is out for everyone's good. And I think that that
Speaker 2: safety and that like what you consider to be transparency,
Speaker 2: because think of like a Sunday school class or you know,
Speaker 2: when you're sharing conversation with people, it tends to be
Speaker 2: on a deeper level than a water cooler. You're talking
Speaker 2: about spiritual things. You're talking about your life, you're talking
Speaker 2: about your you know, desire to be more like Jesus.
Speaker 2: A lot of times you're vulnerable and you're sharing things,
Speaker 2: and so I think it just gives this illusion that
Speaker 2: everyone's guard is down. Everyone is you know who they
Speaker 2: say they are, And the truth is none of us are.
Speaker 2: We all have stuff we keep behind closed doors. But
Speaker 2: when it becomes something that damaging, you're just like, how
Speaker 2: could I how could that have been in plain sight?
Speaker 2: How could I have not known or picked up on it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a scenario that was a little similar,
Speaker 1: same type of crime, and it came out after we
Speaker 1: had already moved. And I remember, so I'm curious if
Speaker 1: you struggled. I remember feeling guilty. There was a sense
Speaker 1: of I should have done some thing because in my
Speaker 1: case there was an inkling. And I even told Scott
Speaker 1: about the inkling. But you can't call the police because
Speaker 1: of an inkling. And no, you really probably shouldn't even
Speaker 1: go to the pastor unless it's a really really strong
Speaker 1: you know, that's a big thing. It would have been
Speaker 1: a huge accusation with no founding other than goosebumps, you know,
Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff. And especially to women listening,
Speaker 1: those goosebumps and those feelings are a gift from God
Speaker 1: that your body gives you. I'm not going to go
Speaker 1: so far as to say it's the Holy Spirit. I'm
Speaker 1: just going to say God has given us the ability
Speaker 1: to sense danger as a way to protect ourselves and
Speaker 1: our children and our families and our communities. So do
Speaker 1: not disregard and pooh pooh those feelings. However, I remember
Speaker 1: I actually had two scenarios like this the other scenario,
Speaker 1: it was like I knew that the sin was coming,
Speaker 1: but it hadn't happened yet, so I was just kind
Speaker 1: of like watching and waiting. And then when it did
Speaker 1: happen and it made a pretty big splash and hurt
Speaker 1: a lot of people, again, I felt guilty. It was like, well,
Speaker 1: should I have done something? So what do you think
Speaker 1: about that? Did you experience any feelings like that?
Speaker 2: I didn't, because I think because I was so far
Speaker 2: removed from it, and when I was part of that congregation,
Speaker 2: I was younger, and so I guess I didn't. Really
Speaker 2: I didn't have I guess you could call it guilt.
Speaker 2: It wasn't guilt as much as like a correct perception
Speaker 2: of reality all things, I mean, in the same way,
Speaker 2: only on a different level and obviously more much more different.
Speaker 2: When you find out someone has been cheating on you,
Speaker 2: Like I had a boyfriend that I found out was
Speaker 2: cheating on me, and I had this perception of what
Speaker 2: our relationship was. When I found that out, it was
Speaker 2: like kind of your world cracks and shatters and you
Speaker 2: have to, like, you know, the tectonic plates shift and
Speaker 2: you have to sort of reassess everything you know and
Speaker 2: it was that same type of thing. But I wouldn't
Speaker 2: say there was guilt because yeah, because I didn't have
Speaker 2: an inkling and I wasn't as an adult fully formed
Speaker 2: in the way I would take ownership. Do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, if it happened now, i'd question myself,
Speaker 2: but yeah, back then I didn't so much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, after finding out years after I'd been removed, I
Speaker 1: would say for people who are struggling with that guilt,
Speaker 1: I mean, it can come in multioys, it can come
Speaker 1: in why didn't I see this coming? Kind of in
Speaker 1: the same way that you started questioning yourself, like, well,
Speaker 1: if I got hoodwinked by this guy, what else might
Speaker 1: I be wrong about? Or you know more For me,
Speaker 1: it was like, well should I have done something? Like
Speaker 1: could I have stopped this? And what I came to
Speaker 1: realize because I wrestled with it a lot, and I
Speaker 1: think where I settled is premonitions a lot of time,
Speaker 1: especially if it's premonitions about other people. Right Like if
Speaker 1: I had a premonition about my own child, that would
Speaker 1: be so different, but premonitions about other people. I think
Speaker 1: my default has turned into I have received this premonition,
Speaker 1: so that I can pray over this situation, and I
Speaker 1: never assume that the premonition is there so that I
Speaker 1: take some type of action beyond prayer, and then if
Speaker 1: the prayer leads me to do something else, then I
Speaker 1: do it. If not, the way I look at it,
Speaker 1: it's almost like imagine the guilt you'd feel if you
Speaker 1: had a bad feeling about someone going on a car trip,
Speaker 1: you didn't say anything, and then they got in a
Speaker 1: really bad accident, and so you're left wondering, like my
Speaker 1: responsible for my loved one's death because I didn't say
Speaker 1: that I had a bad feeling about this accident. And
Speaker 1: where I have come to land is that that is
Speaker 1: too much guilt for human shoulders, Like that's God territory.
Speaker 1: That's like sovereign God territory. But where I would land
Speaker 1: on that is you get the premonition, you pray, and
Speaker 1: then if in prayer you're led to say something, God
Speaker 1: will tell you that you're supposed to say something. If not,
Speaker 1: So if I got a premonition, this is all hypothetical
Speaker 1: that there was going to be like something wrong, Like
Speaker 1: I'm nervous about my husband taking this road trip, and
Speaker 1: so I go to pray and I don't get the
Speaker 1: sense of you need to bring this up to your husband,
Speaker 1: so I don't, and then something devastating happens on the road.
Speaker 1: Where I go to is not I am responsible for
Speaker 1: my husband's accident, because again I think that's too much
Speaker 1: authority on a person and not on the Lord. But
Speaker 1: where I go to is because I prayed it turned
Speaker 1: out better than it would have otherwise, and so that's
Speaker 1: how I handle the girl. I've got multiple story stories
Speaker 1: of times where I wish I had prayed with somebody
Speaker 1: or wondered if I was supposed to have shared a
Speaker 1: premonition but didn't, And that's where I have settled on.
Speaker 1: It's my premonition led me to pray, that prayer made
Speaker 1: the outcome better than it would have been otherwise.
Speaker 2: No, I think that's a very safe and humble, like
Speaker 2: right where you're supposed to be way to deal with it,
Speaker 2: because if you're too willy nilly with dishing out premonitions
Speaker 2: like you could do some damage and to put it
Speaker 2: in God's hands to the point of like, well, I
Speaker 2: remember a time completely unrelated to church scandal, but like
Speaker 2: my mother in law was supposed to be watching our
Speaker 2: kids while like our kid at the time it was
Speaker 2: only one. It would have been the first time I
Speaker 2: would have been away from our son when he was little,
Speaker 2: and my husband and I were going to go off
Speaker 2: with some friends to see if football came in Nebraska
Speaker 2: or something, and the morning we were supposed to leave,
Speaker 2: she was like crying, and I mean we had plane tickets, everything,
Speaker 2: and she was crying and she was like, I just
Speaker 2: I don't think you should go. She's like meeting me,
Speaker 2: She's like, I think if you leave, I just have
Speaker 2: a bad feeling about how this is going to go
Speaker 2: with our son. Anyway, it was it was a long story,
Speaker 2: but basically she and she's like, I have been praying
Speaker 2: about this since two in the morning, fighting God on it.
Speaker 2: Not wanting to say this to you because I know
Speaker 2: you're good, you know, I don't know what else to say.
Speaker 2: But she's like, I just I feel like this is
Speaker 2: not like you're not supposed to go right now. And
Speaker 2: I don't know what it was about in retrospect, but
Speaker 2: what I know about my mother in law is that
Speaker 2: she is an amazing woman of God. She would do
Speaker 2: anything for us or her grandkids. And it was way
Speaker 2: at a character for her not to stay there and
Speaker 2: be with, you know, and watch him. So I have
Speaker 2: to believe, and I believe firmly that there was something
Speaker 2: and they go without you or yeah, my husband, Yeah,
Speaker 2: Matt went without me with everybody. And I cried the
Speaker 2: whole way to the airport and Bob, I was like,
Speaker 2: I needed this so badly. You know, I hadn't been
Speaker 2: away from him in you know, a year, however long
Speaker 2: it was, and I was so looking forward to it.
Speaker 2: But I trust and even then, as disappointed as I was,
Speaker 2: I was never mad at her, and I was never
Speaker 2: ever I didn't ever doubt that she heard from God,
Speaker 2: because I know that she was praying all of those hours,
Speaker 2: and so all of that to say, if you're praying
Speaker 2: and you feel God just pushing and pushing and pushing
Speaker 2: you to say something, that's one thing.
Speaker 1: Exactly, because here's another way to read it, you know,
Speaker 1: knowing what I know of your mother in law, and
Speaker 1: I don't think i've ever met her, like I think
Speaker 1: everybody did exactly what they were supposed to do. I
Speaker 1: could see another scenario where there's just a grandma who's
Speaker 1: really nervous to be alone with the grand baby, right
Speaker 1: and turns that into an anxiety spiral, and then her
Speaker 1: brain just kind of warps that into God told me
Speaker 1: that you shouldn't do this right, And so that's why
Speaker 1: it's always you always have to check the source. You
Speaker 1: always have to just take everything with that grain of salt.
Speaker 1: Always go back to your own prayer closet with it. Never,
Speaker 1: no matter how godly somebody is, if there's no other takeaway,
Speaker 1: especially when we're talking about how easy it is for
Speaker 1: church scandals and for church leaders to fall into horrifics
Speaker 1: and never an individual at their word, no matter how
Speaker 1: how close you are to them. You know, I mean
Speaker 1: very very small exceptions. You know, you and your husband,
Speaker 1: you and me, you and your mother in law, Like
Speaker 1: somebody that you know is going to like jump in
Speaker 1: front of that frame for you, and you trust their
Speaker 1: spiritual instinct. Still pray about it, but you know it's
Speaker 1: it's not the same as like sometimes like just keep
Speaker 1: your guard up and never put it down. Like if
Speaker 1: I'm just walking through Walmart and some person just comes
Speaker 1: up to me and starts rambling that God's going to
Speaker 1: do something terrible to my kid, I'm not giving that
Speaker 1: person any spiritual attention like, if anything, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be praying hard for protection against that person, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And I will also trust that
Speaker 1: if God truly has a message for me, that He's
Speaker 1: going to deliver it to me in a way that
Speaker 1: I'm going to understand. Like that's why angels didn't come
Speaker 1: and speak in foreign languages to you know, the Old
Speaker 1: Testament prophets, or if they did, like somehow the prophets
Speaker 1: knew exactly what they were saying. Like, so God's going
Speaker 1: to talk to us in ways that we get And
Speaker 1: for me, that's not going to be the weirdo who
Speaker 1: comes up and wraps on my window at a red
Speaker 1: light and scares me, you know exactly.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean it's like anything any kind of advice,
Speaker 2: any kind of word from the Lord or anything like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's need to use caution.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and presumably nothing terrible happened to you, your
Speaker 1: child or anybody who went to the football game. Correct.
Speaker 2: No, And to be a little bit more clear, it
Speaker 2: was I believe the context of what she felt was
Speaker 2: that it would be traumatic for him for.
Speaker 1: Me to leave.
Speaker 2: I can't remember how old he was, but you know,
Speaker 2: she lived states away they had not had a whole
Speaker 2: live interaction. Yeah, and so it had to do with
Speaker 2: his response to me being away when we were so attached.
Speaker 2: And yeah, again she is the kind of like she
Speaker 2: was really looking forward to staying with him. So again
Speaker 2: it went completely against what she would have chosen, which
Speaker 2: gave her and me kind of that confidence of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: that it doesn't add up. And since then they've watched
Speaker 2: our kids tons of times and never had any bad feelings,
Speaker 2: so I don't.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, it didn't have to be something hugely dramatic.
Speaker 1: It could have been something as simple as like nothing
Speaker 1: horrible would have happened at all. Like I love thinking
Speaker 1: that God has every single multiverse opportunity in his brain.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I believe that there's like an
Speaker 1: infinite number of Jamie's who all made different decisions, but
Speaker 1: I think we see it in Matthew, where Jesus says,
Speaker 1: if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen what you see today,
Speaker 1: they would have repented. So at the very least, Sara,
Speaker 1: are certain scenarios where God knows the hypothetical what if
Speaker 1: he knows what it would have happened? And what I
Speaker 1: love to think is maybe had you gone, nothing terrible
Speaker 1: would have happened that day, Nothing terrible would have happened
Speaker 1: that year, maybe ten years from now. You're going to
Speaker 1: need to trust a strange word from the Lord that
Speaker 1: comes through your mother in law or comes from somebody else,
Speaker 1: and because you've practiced doing that, you're going to make
Speaker 1: the right decision in that moment, and you're going to
Speaker 1: save your child's life. Right Like, we never fully know
Speaker 1: all the details, but what I'm saying is I think
Speaker 1: there's a certain personality, and I will go ahead in
Speaker 1: public peek confess I might fall into this personality. I
Speaker 1: had been your mother in law, there would have been
Speaker 1: and I would have hated this aspect of myself. But
Speaker 1: I'm guessing there would have been an anybody fraction that
Speaker 1: almost wanted something bad to happen, like nobody to get hurt,
Speaker 1: but just so that I could be like, oh it right,
Speaker 1: you know, so that so that I could give myself
Speaker 1: that pat on the head, and also so that I
Speaker 1: could not feel like I was the crazy lady who
Speaker 1: flaked out on my sun and his family. But we don't.
Speaker 1: We're not given that benefit. I love that asen says,
Speaker 1: you remember that quote in Narnia. Asthen says it in
Speaker 1: a couple of the different books. I think he says
Speaker 1: suddenly like we never get to know the the what ifs,
Speaker 1: but he says it, I think in a more poetic way,
Speaker 1: and so we don't know, but don't. What I'm saying is,
Speaker 1: inasmuch as you can in that say you don't wish
Speaker 1: for the bad thing to happen to prove yourself right.
Speaker 1: It's way better for everything to go totally right and
Speaker 1: for you to look a little bit like you overreacted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in that case, who knows, developed antally there
Speaker 2: might have needed you their attachment wise, that really had
Speaker 2: to happen at that critical part of his development, and
Speaker 2: we will never know, but.
Speaker 1: He might not be at west Point right now if
Speaker 1: it hadn't been for that decision. Then I wish I
Speaker 1: had gone yeah, right, yeah, Now, well back to scandals
Speaker 1: and things. I would love to end with just I
Speaker 1: think we've talked about the empathy that we can have
Speaker 1: and showing how the ripples are farther reaching than you
Speaker 1: would expect, and I would love to close with what
Speaker 1: to do if you are in that ripple? Right, now,
Speaker 1: or just takeaways that you can hold on to, like
Speaker 1: a life raft that you can keep under your seat
Speaker 1: in case you ever are in that ripple. So, I
Speaker 1: guess imagine that you are involved in a scandal that
Speaker 1: does hit a lot closer to home than anything you
Speaker 1: or I have gone through before. What truths would you
Speaker 1: hope that in the worst of those moments you would
Speaker 1: have to hold on to?
Speaker 2: I guess the first one is just that no matter
Speaker 2: what happens, God is in it, even when it doesn't
Speaker 2: look like it, even when it looks like what you
Speaker 2: thought God was has been shattered, because you might think, well,
Speaker 2: of course God is going to protect. Of course God
Speaker 2: is going to make sure that corruption stays out of
Speaker 2: his you know, holy place. So I think definitely remembering
Speaker 2: that God is all in all things. God is at
Speaker 2: work for those who love Him and who are called
Speaker 2: according to His purpose. To realize that it's okay to grieve,
Speaker 2: and it's okay to be angry, and it's okay to
Speaker 2: take a break if you need to that, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, I know sometimes there needs to be a
Speaker 2: time of separating yourself out. And I'm a proponent of
Speaker 2: meeting with the body of Christ. But if you need
Speaker 2: to step back temporarily to heal, to regroup, to process,
Speaker 2: to figure things out by all means. But at the
Speaker 2: same time, I would say, please, don't disconnect and take
Speaker 2: a break from God. You know, during that time, just
Speaker 2: remember that God can handle your anger, he can handle
Speaker 2: your frustration, He can handle you beating your fists against
Speaker 2: his chest and asking why, and to do that in
Speaker 2: his direction rather than running away and trying to process
Speaker 2: it yourself, because that's not going to end well, you know,
Speaker 2: it's just going to end with a lot of pain.
Speaker 2: You're still going to have the pain you're just going
Speaker 2: to have. You know, You're going to block yourself from
Speaker 2: God's work to help you heal. And I think the
Speaker 2: thing that I am not sure I'm qualified to answer
Speaker 2: is the question of what do we do with Absolutely
Speaker 2: we know what to do with the victims. We love them,
Speaker 2: we strive for restoration and conversation, we believe them. But
Speaker 2: what do we do with the person who was responsible
Speaker 2: for the fall?
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, the Bible I think has a perfect prescription
Speaker 1: of that. You take him out the city gates in
Speaker 1: new Stonam. Yeah, right, that's all. That's literally all there
Speaker 1: is a camp. No, of course, everybody knows I'm being facetious.
Speaker 1: That is a very hard one because I think we
Speaker 1: need to put church leaders who fall into scandal into camps.
Speaker 1: I think we need to put some into the camp
Speaker 1: of a believer who fell into sin and was remorseful
Speaker 1: and a narcissist who joined church leadership because they like
Speaker 1: being in that position of power, and they like being
Speaker 1: surrounded by yes men and yes women, and no matter
Speaker 1: what happens, if given the opportunity, they would do what
Speaker 1: they did again and again and again. And really good
Speaker 1: narcissists are not going to show their colors super easily
Speaker 1: to let you know which camp they're in. So I
Speaker 1: would say one of the wisest things is to and
Speaker 1: obviously not many of us are going to be in
Speaker 1: a position of like creating church by laws, but I
Speaker 1: think it is very important for churches to have smart
Speaker 1: safeguards in place for not giving one individual carte launch
Speaker 1: authority and also not giving a board so much authority
Speaker 1: that like, the pastor says one thing that two of
Speaker 1: them don't like, and now that pastor's out on the curb,
Speaker 1: having some kind of balance there, and so much is preventative.
Speaker 1: It is praying not only for your like for your leader,
Speaker 1: or for the person who might be who's fall into
Speaker 1: sin would be the most likely or the most disasters
Speaker 1: for your congregation, but for the advisors and surrounding that person,
Speaker 1: because truly they should be the first line of defense.
Speaker 1: But again it gets very hard because some people are
Speaker 1: going to pool everybody. And I read a really disturbing
Speaker 1: fact that I have since gone back and corroborated more
Speaker 1: than once because I don't want to believe it's true.
Speaker 1: But of like the top five jobs that a narcissist
Speaker 1: is most like, a clinical classic narcissist is most drawn too.
Speaker 1: Clergy is on that list because they are in a
Speaker 1: position to control and manipulate. And like you said, a
Speaker 1: lot of people take their guard down more in a
Speaker 1: church than they would in a business room or something
Speaker 1: like that. So prayer and grace, but so much diligence.
Speaker 1: There are some people who I am going to go
Speaker 1: on record standing shouldn't be reinstated. I don't care how
Speaker 1: sorry you make me think that you are. At the moment.
Speaker 1: What's hard is to put on a piece of paper
Speaker 1: steps to know whether you are under the camp of
Speaker 1: repentant sinner who should be not immediately reinstated in most cases, ever,
Speaker 1: is my opinion, but on a path toward reconciliation to
Speaker 1: your church and potentially to a position of leadership. And
Speaker 1: again I think that's where an elder board would come in.
Speaker 1: I don't think that any church should operate without a
Speaker 1: shared leadership amongst multiple people, so that if the lead
Speaker 1: pastor falls into sin and it's not so heinous that
Speaker 1: they immediately just get fired and never come back, that
Speaker 1: there will be steps to say, okay, for example, like
Speaker 1: six months, you're welcome to attend and worship with us,
Speaker 1: but you are not going to speak upfront after that time.
Speaker 1: If you show us I mean basically like you might
Speaker 1: do in an intervention, right after that point in time,
Speaker 1: if you can show us that you have done this, this,
Speaker 1: and this, then we will invite you to do the
Speaker 1: opening prayer right and with the goal of continued reinstatements
Speaker 1: to the point where it is wise. And some of
Speaker 1: that wisdom is for the protection of the church. Some
Speaker 1: of that wisdom is for the protection spiritually of the
Speaker 1: repentant pastor or the repentant sinner, because if they get
Speaker 1: thrust back into the spotlight too quickly without addressing what
Speaker 1: led them into sin in the first place. They are
Speaker 1: such rpe picking for it to happen again. So sadly
Speaker 1: I don't have a check these three boxes, and then
Speaker 1: this person gets kicked out and should never preach anymore
Speaker 1: and check these three boxes, and this person should be
Speaker 1: on a path toward reinstatement. But I would say, if
Speaker 1: we're going to air, let's air on the side of
Speaker 1: being more gracious in our hearts towards somebody, more protective
Speaker 1: in our actions towards the church. If that makes sense,
Speaker 1: extend the benefit of the doubt more to the person
Speaker 1: who sins than you might feel they deserve, but be
Speaker 1: even more cautious about protecting the safety of the members
Speaker 1: of your congregation. Right, So, if that means airing on
Speaker 1: the side of somebody getting their feelings hurt because they're
Speaker 1: not reinstated as quickly as they want to, but it's
Speaker 1: the best decision for the safety of the church, to me,
Speaker 1: that still makes more sense. But I do believe that
Speaker 1: there's a way to do that while still extending a
Speaker 1: lot of grace in your heart. And that's where I
Speaker 1: think a lot of Christians fail, it's got to be
Speaker 1: one or the other.
Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right there. I love the way
Speaker 2: you put that. I think that sums it up perfectly
Speaker 2: because a pattern I see in several of these prominent
Speaker 2: church scandals, and I'll just name them. There's Bethel was
Speaker 2: one of the big ones that had like not just
Speaker 2: instituttionetional issues, but there were like individuals associated with them
Speaker 2: who were preying on people in a number of ways,
Speaker 2: and they were just allowed to run rampant and reinstated.
Speaker 2: And when they were called out for misbehavior and sin,
Speaker 2: the people accusing them were being chastised for either causing
Speaker 2: a man of God to stumble or on the other hand,
Speaker 2: not be extending enough forgiveness and basically just allowing them
Speaker 2: to continue to prosper. And I think, did I say
Speaker 2: Bethel Endhell Song? And then there are the people within,
Speaker 2: Like the Southern Baptist Convention has been elevated lately, you know,
Speaker 2: in the last ten years or so, it's been exposed
Speaker 2: that they've been covering things up, and the you know,
Speaker 2: every denomination I think has been called out. And I
Speaker 2: think this idea of let's just the good old boys
Speaker 2: network let's just let's just pat him on the back
Speaker 2: and let them keep going while ignoring or shunning or
Speaker 2: qualifying victims. And then the other side that you have
Speaker 2: is people who are just going to be casting stones
Speaker 2: constantly and never giving anyone the opportunity or the option
Speaker 2: to show repentance and to show that they, you know,
Speaker 2: can still be used by God, you know, to use
Speaker 2: their gifts to edify the church body. But what you said,
Speaker 2: I think two things that are paramount. One, love God
Speaker 2: with all your heart right and love your neighbor as yourself.
Speaker 2: So if we do those two things, we are loving
Speaker 2: the body of Christ enough not to allow them to
Speaker 2: be put in any danger whatsoever. I'm going to read this.
Speaker 2: I didn't get to our verse of the day, but
Speaker 2: I'm going to read it because it's really relevant to
Speaker 2: what you just said. This is Ezekiel thirty four to
Speaker 2: two from the NIV, Son of Man prophesy against the
Speaker 2: shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, this is
Speaker 2: what the sovereign Lord says, woe to use shepherds of Israel,
Speaker 2: who only take care of yourselves. Should not shepherds take
Speaker 2: care of the So it's loving the body of Christ
Speaker 2: enough to protect them and shield them from any hint
Speaker 2: of possibility of being defiled or let astray or hurt.
Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, that like love of
Speaker 2: Jesus who ate with the tax collectors and the prostitutes
Speaker 2: and did not condemn but just loved them and challenged
Speaker 2: them to live righteous lives, so they can both exist
Speaker 2: in the same place. It's not not loving someone or
Speaker 2: not forgiving someone to set boundaries to protect the body
Speaker 2: of Christ. And if we could learn to do those
Speaker 2: both well, which is so hard in practice, Yeah, the
Speaker 2: church would be a lot healthier.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to close with a picture of something
Speaker 1: I saw as an outsider looking in. So I'm sure
Speaker 1: it was not as simplistic as I'm going to make it.
Speaker 1: But I was in a community where I went to
Speaker 1: Church A, and I was aware that at Church B,
Speaker 1: the pastor had had an affair and the church was
Speaker 1: really reeling after the fact. And what I saw, again
Speaker 1: being fairly removed. So this is going to be oversimplified,
Speaker 1: but what I saw was a church who was heartbroken
Speaker 1: for themselves, for their pastor, especially for his wife. I
Speaker 1: saw her like when people would see her at the store.
Speaker 1: They would go out of their way to give her
Speaker 1: hugs and be like, how are you doing, how are
Speaker 1: things going? We are praying for you. Now. Certain personalities
Speaker 1: that might be worse, but I saw extensions of so
Speaker 1: much love and appreciation, where so many of our defaults
Speaker 1: would be to like, oh, I don't want to say
Speaker 1: anything because this is so awkward. And I saw the
Speaker 1: pastor being removed from the pulpit, but not from the church,
Speaker 1: and that is, in my opinion, difficult, beautiful and gracious
Speaker 1: for everybody involved. For the church and the elders to say,
Speaker 1: we cannot have you preaching, but we don't want you
Speaker 1: to leave, and for him to say, this has got
Speaker 1: to be the most awkward, painful thing in the world.
Speaker 1: But this is my family and my home. I saw
Speaker 1: just that quick snapshot. I have no idea how it ended.
Speaker 1: I have no idea all of the tears and drama
Speaker 1: that you know went on behind all the closed doors.
Speaker 1: But I thought that was a beautiful picture and a
Speaker 1: beautiful testimony, especially for non believers to go and look at.
Speaker 1: The church was not being naive. They weren't saying, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: he's fine. He just made this one mistake but they
Speaker 1: also weren't saying you're not welcome here, and your wife
Speaker 1: is disgusting because she obviously did something wrong for her
Speaker 1: husband to have had an affair. You know, I guess
Speaker 1: our impromptu blessing to close is, may we all find
Speaker 1: that degree of both grace and wisdom and discernments to
Speaker 1: be protecting of the flocks that were part of and
Speaker 1: also to be gracious towards those who are imperfect, which
Speaker 1: is all of us, and to know how to be
Speaker 1: so gracious and so protective at the same time while
Speaker 1: guarding our hearts from cynicism and bitterness. Amen. Amen.
Speaker 2: We'd like to take just a quick second to thank
Speaker 2: the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us
Speaker 2: on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
Speaker 2: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in
Speaker 2: their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,
Speaker 2: and so much more. That's life audio dot Com on