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Speaker 1: Life Audio, Hello and welcome. We are so glad you

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Speaker 1: joined us. I am Milana, I'm here with Jamie. How

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Speaker 1: are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great.

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Speaker 1: This is a special joint episode. You know what would

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Speaker 1: be really silly is if we pretended that we were

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Speaker 1: joined by the co hosts of another really really cool

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Speaker 1: show and had like a four way conversation. But literally

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Speaker 1: it's just the two of us because technically we're the

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Speaker 1: co host of two different podcasts.

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Speaker 2: It's true, yeah, so we basically would have a conversation

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Speaker 2: with each other click we do every week and ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So welcome. Whether you are listening to us in the

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Speaker 1: Praying Christian Women Feed or the Christian Truo Crime Juckie

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Speaker 1: s Feed, We're so glad you joined us. We're doing

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Speaker 1: a combined episode and a slightly different format from both

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Speaker 1: shows today. Full transparency. Some of that is because of

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Speaker 1: the script that I thought I had ready for Christian

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Speaker 1: True Crime Junkies disappeared, so I didn't have a case ready.

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Speaker 1: But we are in summer mode and lots of random

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Speaker 1: life things are popping up, and so we for sure

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Speaker 1: wanted to get this out there and figured it was

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Speaker 1: better to get something a little more unscripted out there

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Speaker 1: than wait until we had a perfect true crimes beginning

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Speaker 1: to end story to tell you about. And just so

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Speaker 1: you're aware, especially in the true Crime Junkies feed, we

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Speaker 1: are probably going to be going to a little more

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Speaker 1: sporadic just at least over June, so we might not

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Speaker 1: be quite every single week, but we will do our

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Speaker 1: best to stay as regular as we can.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to say that if we had done

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Speaker 2: the thing that you said with misleading our listeners and

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Speaker 2: thinking there were like other hosts from other podcasts that

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Speaker 2: could be considered like kind of.

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Speaker 1: Scandalous, would be a little bit scandalous. It might even

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Speaker 1: be something that would get us canceled.

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Speaker 2: Not that those are you know, segues into our topic

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Speaker 2: or anything, but we.

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Speaker 1: Don't care about Sigmunds, especially in our unscripted shows. No,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking about church scandals, and we

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Speaker 1: will be presenting this a little bit more from the

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Speaker 1: Christian true crime junkie side. But the question is not

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Speaker 1: what's the most salacious church scandal we can tell you about?

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Speaker 1: It truly is more like what do you do when

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Speaker 1: you find yourself hurt because of a church scandal that

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Speaker 1: you were directly or indirectly or five times indirectly removed from,

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Speaker 1: which is why we're also going to put this up

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Speaker 1: on our Praying Christian womenfeed because my theory is that

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Speaker 1: you cannot be very involved in a church body for

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Speaker 1: decades of your adult life without getting hurt. And a

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Speaker 1: lot of us are not going to be untouched by

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Speaker 1: a church scandal of some kind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk a lot about in our prayer lives,

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Speaker 2: in our day to day lives about being prepared. So

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Speaker 2: like in your prayer life, you want to kind of

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Speaker 2: fortify yourself and prepare yourself with resources for the times

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Speaker 2: when you're spiritually fragile, you know, and with the crime

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Speaker 2: stories we talk about, we talk about being prepared ahead

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Speaker 2: of time, educating yourself. And I just feel like this

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Speaker 2: topic is something that if we can look at it

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Speaker 2: when we are not fragile, like when we're not in it.

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Speaker 2: For those of us that are fortunate not to be

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Speaker 2: in the midst of a scandal right now from you know,

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Speaker 2: a hurtful thing, I think it can prepare us to

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Speaker 2: respond in a godly way, in a biblical way, in

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Speaker 2: a healthy way when it does eventually happen or maybe

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Speaker 2: for those who have experienced it to help them maybe

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Speaker 2: process some of those things in a more healthy way,

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Speaker 2: to kind of try to get healthier and move forward

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Speaker 2: in their lives.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. People who are outside of the church looking in

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Speaker 1: probably cannot understand the degree to which a church scandal

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Speaker 1: ripples across everybody. So, you know, let's take the very

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Speaker 1: most obvious, at least non mega church celebrity pastor scandal,

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Speaker 1: and that would be a pastor is accused of adultery

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Speaker 1: and the church is thrown into chaos because of it,

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Speaker 1: and the pastor has to resign. Outside looking in, it's

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Speaker 1: easy to say, oh, that's really hard for the pastor's family.

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Speaker 1: That's going to be hard for the people in the

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Speaker 1: church who are therefore required to step in and fill

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Speaker 1: in the pulpit and decide how to find another pastor.

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Speaker 1: And if you don't dig deeper, it kind of ends there,

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Speaker 1: and you don't think about the impact it has on

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Speaker 1: his family, on everybody in the church, people who hadn't

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Speaker 1: been to that church in ten years. But imagine you're

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Speaker 1: a kind of wavering belief and you've been away from

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Speaker 1: church for ten years and you find out that the

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Speaker 1: pastor who led you to Christ, you know, fell into sin,

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Speaker 1: and that could absolutely lead to a crisis of faith

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Speaker 1: in certain people. And let's come right out and say it.

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Speaker 1: The church is not good about handling victims of abuse

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Speaker 1: or scandal. I have friends who I'm friends actually with

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Speaker 1: both the wife and the daughter, and the husband slash

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Speaker 1: father was a pastor who committed adultery and resigned from

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Speaker 1: his position or respired. I wasn't around at that point

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Speaker 1: in time, but the kids and the whole family were shunned.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like, we are so sorry that your family

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Speaker 1: is going through this really really hard time. It was, oh, no,

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Speaker 1: you can't go play with little Sally not her real name,

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Speaker 1: because you know, we wouldn't want our precious little five

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Speaker 1: year old to catch adultery, you know, or to be

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Speaker 1: tainted by playing with you. So it has very huge

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Speaker 1: ripples that a lot of people don't think about. Or

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Speaker 1: maybe you're three times removed, right, So in this quasi

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Speaker 1: hypothetical case, maybe you're like now married to Sally and

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Speaker 1: you're watching all of this stuff that she went through

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Speaker 1: when she was a little girl, and you're wondering why

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Speaker 1: this is impacting your life now. So much, and you

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Speaker 1: might be thinking, Oh, I shouldn't be dealing with this.

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Speaker 1: I'm so far removed from this. So many people got

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Speaker 1: hurt more than I ever have. This is minor in

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Speaker 1: comparison to other people have gone through, and so you

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Speaker 1: either feel guilty for not forgiving and moving on, or

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Speaker 1: you feel like maybe you're being self absorbed by still

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Speaker 1: not being able to get over it, or maybe you're

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Speaker 1: like emotionally stunted because this is still an issue for you.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's a really important topic to discuss.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do think so, because, like you said, I

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Speaker 2: think people who have not been through a church scandal,

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Speaker 2: I kind of liken it to maybe someone who hasn't

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Speaker 2: been through a miscarriage. I don't think it's possible to

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Speaker 2: fully understand the impact it has until you've gone through it,

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Speaker 2: Like for me personally, Like I have not been through

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Speaker 2: a miscarriage, and I can understand in my brain like

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Speaker 2: how devastating that is and has to have been for

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Speaker 2: those who have been through it. But I fully am

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Speaker 2: aware that I can't allow, like I there's something that

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Speaker 2: doesn't allow me to process the depth of that pain

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Speaker 2: and internalize it because I know it's so painful. I

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Speaker 2: think it's similar with someone who hasn't been through the

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Speaker 2: church scandal thing. I think you can be outside of

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Speaker 2: it and just not quite process the extent to which

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Speaker 2: the betrayal goes. I just think of when my car

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Speaker 2: was you know, I left the doors unlocked and someone

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Speaker 2: rifled through my dad's car when I was a kid,

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Speaker 2: and how deeply violated I felt from that small thing,

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Speaker 2: and then thinking extrapolating like someone who's had their entire

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Speaker 2: home ransacked and you know, or been violated in other ways.

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Speaker 2: Like basically all what I'm saying is I think talking

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Speaker 2: about it is important because I think we need to

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Speaker 2: validate the ripple effects of church scandals and also like

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Speaker 2: educate people that don't quite understand, maybe and so that

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Speaker 2: they can prepare themselves ahead of time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the one way that people can

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Speaker 1: empathize even if they haven't gone through. And this is

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Speaker 1: just me speaking from my experience, but memoir really helps

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Speaker 1: me to like live it in someone's shoes more than

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Speaker 1: most other mediums deal. I think my favorite church scandal memoir,

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Speaker 1: which sounds like a phrase I never expected to say,

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Speaker 1: but when I definitely recommend it's called Why I Stayed,

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Speaker 1: And her name is Gail, and you would likely I

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Speaker 1: forget her last name, you would likely maybe you could

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Speaker 1: look it up all I'm telling you about it, you

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Speaker 1: would likely recognize the name of her and her husband.

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Speaker 1: But he was very high up in an evangelical Christian

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Speaker 1: association and was accused of lots of sexual immorality. And

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Speaker 1: her memoir, obviously called Why I Stayed is partially her

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Speaker 1: explanation for why, even though she had biblical grounds of

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Speaker 1: where she didn't. But even more so, it really opened

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Speaker 1: my eyes to how Christians treated her and her family

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Speaker 1: who were the very most in need of love and support.

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Speaker 1: Is it Gail Haggard? Yes? Yes? What's her husband's name,

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Speaker 1: Ted Haggard? Do you remember his story? Does that name

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Speaker 1: ring a bell to you? This would have been a

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Speaker 1: decade or two ago.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I so it's the New Life Church in

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Speaker 2: Colorado Springs. I'm trying to place him because the name

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Speaker 2: sounds familiar.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, sadly scandals like this, specifically with sexual immorality,

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Speaker 1: and again sadly immorality that is even more outside the

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Speaker 1: realms of I committed adultery with a heterosexual consensual partner

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Speaker 1: are getting more and more common, and I think we

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Speaker 1: have multiple ways to look at this. I think the

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Speaker 1: worst way to look at it is all Christians are terrible.

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Speaker 1: You cannot trust anybody. People are sick and disgusting. So

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Speaker 1: we don't want to go all the way over there.

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Speaker 1: We absolutely you and I are never in any public

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Speaker 1: forum going to ever condone covering up sins against victims

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Speaker 1: for the sake of keeping up appearances or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes the worst crime is the cover up, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes you get entire denominations complicit in that. And for

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Speaker 1: people who need to hear it, I am not talking

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Speaker 1: solely about the Catholic Church, although that's where I think

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Speaker 1: this first ripple of hearing about some of these scandals

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Speaker 1: came up. But there are many other Protestant denominations as

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Speaker 1: well that are accused in very heinous ways of having

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Speaker 1: widespread knowledge of not only pastors who have fallen into

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Speaker 1: the sexual sin of consensual adultery, but pastors who are

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Speaker 1: predators and should not be behind a pulpit and should

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Speaker 1: likely be in prison, and they are being shielded and

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Speaker 1: protected by their denomination.

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Speaker 2: And often promoted and lauded.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, is sick.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, the name the denomination, and there's

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Speaker 2: been scandal, and some of it has been extremely public,

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Speaker 2: some of it's been you know a little bit more

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Speaker 2: here and there. But the thing that I has kind

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Speaker 2: of opened my eyes was our conversation about adult clergy

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Speaker 2: sexual abuse, which makes me look at quote adultery from

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Speaker 2: the pulpit in a different way. And I truly do

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Speaker 2: believe that there are cases where there are you know,

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Speaker 2: pastors who have congregants that maybe there is.

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Speaker 1: Mutual consensual stuff going on.

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Speaker 2: That's simply you could probably categorize it as an affair.

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Speaker 2: But when you have that power gradient, it always it

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Speaker 2: just needs to be like looked at more closely. And

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Speaker 2: it just makes me wonder where the line is there.

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Speaker 2: And I know there are some people that would say

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Speaker 2: where there is a power gradient, it's always abuse, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Like I mean, I definitely believe it's

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Speaker 2: unwise always, But when you have like pastors getting married

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Speaker 2: to people that weren't their wives before, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I just I wonder what the line is there. And

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Speaker 2: I know that's a different conversation. I would encourage our

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Speaker 2: listeners to go back to the Christian True Crime Junkies

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Speaker 2: episode on adult clergy sexual abuse, which I don't remember

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Speaker 2: the exact episode, but we do have a really good

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Speaker 2: conversation that when I hear some of these high profile

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Speaker 2: cases coming out and it's adultery or he stumbled, some

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Speaker 2: of these victims are coming out later and claiming that

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Speaker 2: they were actually you know, like abuse, ruins, abused, exploited

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Speaker 2: and then basically thrown away by the church and vilified

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Speaker 2: and made to look like temptresses or something that came

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Speaker 2: and caused this upstanding man of God to stumble and

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Speaker 2: tools of the devil, while these guys go and get

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Speaker 2: promoted and they're shunned and basically you know, turned away.

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Speaker 2: So I believe there's my personal belief is there's a spectrum.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think there's absolutely a spectrum of how

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Speaker 2: this happens behind the scenes. But I just really I

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Speaker 2: think that when the word affair comes up, I think

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Speaker 2: we need to look a little bit more carefully into

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Speaker 2: is this really just a case of a stumble or

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Speaker 2: is this a predator? Is this person grooming people and

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Speaker 2: praying on people?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And just to add one more level of nuance,

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Speaker 1: sometimes a pastor will be prey to a seductress. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's a certain personality type that wants to exert power

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Speaker 1: by kind of sexually tempting the one person who's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be the least possible to tempt. So there's never

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Speaker 1: a clear one size fits all. I think it's going

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Speaker 1: to go from every extreme. It's going to go from

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Speaker 1: the extreme of two consenting adults who are still actively

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Speaker 1: engaged in a very sinful activity to a male pastor

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Speaker 1: in authority abusing that power and manipulating women to sleep

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Speaker 1: with him. And on the opposite side of that, or

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Speaker 1: maybe like the full circle side of that, is the

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Speaker 1: woman who sees the pastor as the mount everest of conquests.

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Speaker 1: And it's sort of like, well, if I can make

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Speaker 1: my pastor fall into sin, then you know I've got

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Speaker 1: all the power in the world and everything in between.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, let's also go ahead and say

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Speaker 1: there's absolutely criminal activity that would be outside of all

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Speaker 1: of those scenarios. I don't think we even need to

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Speaker 1: go into like debating whether or not those are appropriates

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Speaker 1: or not. Now. I love that you included a just

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Speaker 1: for fun question for this like very very heavy topic,

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Speaker 1: and it actually is like a pretty fun question. So

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Speaker 1: before we go any deeper, and just for our heads up,

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Speaker 1: so you can be thinking, I do want to know

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Speaker 1: if you've been touched by any type of scandal like this,

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Speaker 1: but before we dive into that are actual fun just

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Speaker 1: for fun question, is what Bible character would absolutely get

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Speaker 1: canceled today for their behavior? David, Yeah, he's a I mean,

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Speaker 1: there is no way around it. Okay, adultery is bad enough.

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Speaker 1: We have no idea how willing bath Sheba was. The

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Speaker 1: Bible is totally silent on that, so we can only guess,

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Speaker 1: but at the very best we can call it adultery

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Speaker 1: and then like murder line, cover up. And I am

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Speaker 1: just floored because he would be so vilified today, and

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Speaker 1: most of us listening would probably if we didn't know

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Speaker 1: it was King David would be like, well, yeah, rightly.

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Speaker 1: So like if I came to you and I said, like,

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Speaker 1: I listened to this beautiful worship song it's by this

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Speaker 1: really cool pastor he's got this like funky story, or

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Speaker 1: like he sucked with this woman that he saw out

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Speaker 1: bathing and then he ordered her husband to be killed

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Speaker 1: so he could marry her. And the song is so

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Speaker 1: beautiful listen to it. You would probably look at me

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Speaker 1: like what has happens to my friend? So yeah, handstand

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Speaker 1: know there is I mean, there's a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who would get canceled and milified, but nobody quicker than David.

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Speaker 1: And I think it makes the question would we be

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Speaker 1: wrong to be like, no, this man cannot preach and

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Speaker 1: write hymns for our churches today? Like do that a

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Speaker 1: wrong reaction?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a really interesting I had never I had

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Speaker 2: always looked at Oh, yeah, David was imperfect. He did

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Speaker 2: these terrible, sinful things, and yet he was a man

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Speaker 2: after God's own heart. But we read his psalms and

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Speaker 2: we still allow him to guide us in biblical authority

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Speaker 2: when we have this thing New Testament, and you know, basically,

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Speaker 2: if your house isn't in order, if you're you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if it's you're currently living in center.

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Speaker 2: Maybe because he was repentant and put those ways behind him.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It's interesting. It's an interesting thing to

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Speaker 2: bring up. And speaking of New Testament, I think Paul

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Speaker 2: would be canceled.

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Speaker 1: Today.

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Speaker 2: Women are to be silent, women are toware coverings, no jewelry,

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Speaker 2: and men do whatever you want now, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: don't know. Yeah, there are some cultural nuances that he

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Speaker 2: said that that I think would cause him to be

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Speaker 2: canceled in our you know, modern church.

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Speaker 1: It would be funny to go through you and I

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Speaker 1: did it once. We did a true crime episode on

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Speaker 1: the Stony of Stephen. But it would be fun to

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Speaker 1: retell some of these, like very well known Bible stories

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Speaker 1: in the style of a true crime episode, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, and see if you could guess, yeah, see

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Speaker 2: if you could guess the the person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or even just be thinking about it in such

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Speaker 1: a different way to be like, oh, this actually is

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Speaker 1: weird to be singing songs by somebody who did all

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Speaker 1: of these terrible things. And I'm not gonna cancel David,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not going to can soil Hillsong or any

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Speaker 1: of these other denominations or movements that we're probably going

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Speaker 1: to talk about and maybe name my name, which I

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Speaker 1: just did, who have had stuff come up about them

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Speaker 1: that is problematic. You and I recorded it must have

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Speaker 1: been for praying Christian women. We recorded an episode on

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Speaker 1: what do you do with the music of somebody who

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Speaker 1: has fallen into scandal? Yeah? And I think you were

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Speaker 1: a tiny bit surprised that I was so lenient. I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, if you do start censoring every single

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Speaker 1: songwriter based on their personal life, that leaves you with nobody.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And though that was such a good point because

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Speaker 2: You're like, I have strong feelings on this, so I

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Speaker 2: figured you're very much on the other side of it.

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Speaker 2: So that was a really good point. And I love

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Speaker 2: the perspective of David being you know, I mean, we

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Speaker 2: have for praying Christian women, we have prayer through the psalms, right,

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Speaker 2: and I've fallen in love with David's Psalms, and here

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Speaker 2: he is like about as sinful as it gets.

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Speaker 1: But yes, so are you ready to wrap up our

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Speaker 1: just for frond segment? Are you ready for the dumbest

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Speaker 1: Bible nerd joke that I came up with all by

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Speaker 1: myself And I am so proud.

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Speaker 2: Of I'm really impressed. I've got to hear it.

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Speaker 1: I gotta hear it. Hey, what did the ear nose

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Speaker 1: and throat doctor say to the psalmist when he came

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Speaker 1: in a hoarse voice? What say law? Did it take

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Speaker 1: you a second? It did? I'm like, say what I say? Law?

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Speaker 2: That's good.

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Speaker 1: I was pretty proud of myself. Anyways, pretty that is impressive.

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Speaker 2: You need to start. You've been telling jokes on our

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Speaker 2: We need to create like a true crime praying Christian

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Speaker 2: women like a lot of joke book, because you've you've

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Speaker 2: been telling some some like corny jokes, but that are funny.

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Speaker 1: So you know what, there is nothing better than a

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Speaker 1: corny joke. I mean, there are lots things better than

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Speaker 1: a corny joke, but corny jokes are still pretty good.

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Speaker 2: I love corny jokes and puns.

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Speaker 1: All right, So tell me, have you ever been touched

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Speaker 1: or what's the closest you've been touched by a church

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Speaker 1: scandal along the scope of what we're discussing. I would say.

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Speaker 2: Probably a member of a congregation I was part of.

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Speaker 2: After I left that congregation, there was a very disturbing

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Speaker 2: arrest of a prominent member of our congregation. And yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was shocking and I wasn't even part of the

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Speaker 2: church anymore. Yeah, and I just remember, like my world

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Speaker 2: was crushed, Like my worldview. I like, you know, grew

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Speaker 2: up around this person, and he was an amazing father.

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Speaker 2: He seemed like the perfect husband. Like I was envious

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Speaker 2: of their relationship growing up. I was like, Man, I

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Speaker 2: hope my marriage is like that, And so it just

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Speaker 2: made me realize the like I feel like I'm not.

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Speaker 2: I mean, in some ways I'm gullible, like jokes my

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Speaker 2: kids will tell me and stuff. But when it comes

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Speaker 2: to people, I feel like I can be discerning. I

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Speaker 2: am an optimist, but I also feel like I can

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Speaker 2: catch a something's off vibe. You know, at least I

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Speaker 2: gave myself that that knowledge. So while it didn't affect

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Speaker 2: my day to day because I had since gotten married

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Speaker 2: and moved on with life, it was shattering, like it

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Speaker 2: shattered my sense of reality for that to be possible.

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Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about that for somebody who's looking in and I

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Speaker 1: totally get it, but pretend I have never gone to church,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, you weren't even at this church.

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Speaker 1: This person never hurt you specifically or anybody hopefully that

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Speaker 1: you knew or cared too much about. That sounded kind

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Speaker 1: of bad, but you know what I'm saying. So why

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Speaker 1: would this shake your faith when it didn't directly impact

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Speaker 1: you and people that were the closest to you.

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Speaker 2: I think it is because for someone who isn't part

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Speaker 2: of a church, or who never has been your church

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Speaker 2: many times becomes like your extended family. You know, we

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Speaker 2: didn't just see them once a week. We saw these

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Speaker 2: people all the time. And church, I think is a

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Speaker 2: safe place. We go there because we expect that everyone,

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Speaker 2: even though we ourselves are inherently sinful and imperfect. I

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Speaker 2: think we go there and expect that the collective body

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Speaker 2: is out for everyone's good. And I think that that

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Speaker 2: safety and that like what you consider to be transparency,

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Speaker 2: because think of like a Sunday school class or you know,

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Speaker 2: when you're sharing conversation with people, it tends to be

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Speaker 2: on a deeper level than a water cooler. You're talking

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Speaker 2: about spiritual things. You're talking about your life, you're talking

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Speaker 2: about your you know, desire to be more like Jesus.

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Speaker 2: A lot of times you're vulnerable and you're sharing things,

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Speaker 2: and so I think it just gives this illusion that

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Speaker 2: everyone's guard is down. Everyone is you know who they

403
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Speaker 2: say they are, And the truth is none of us are.

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Speaker 2: We all have stuff we keep behind closed doors. But

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Speaker 2: when it becomes something that damaging, you're just like, how

406
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Speaker 2: could I how could that have been in plain sight?

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Speaker 2: How could I have not known or picked up on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we had a scenario that was a little similar,

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Speaker 1: same type of crime, and it came out after we

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Speaker 1: had already moved. And I remember, so I'm curious if

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Speaker 1: you struggled. I remember feeling guilty. There was a sense

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Speaker 1: of I should have done some thing because in my

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Speaker 1: case there was an inkling. And I even told Scott

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Speaker 1: about the inkling. But you can't call the police because

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Speaker 1: of an inkling. And no, you really probably shouldn't even

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Speaker 1: go to the pastor unless it's a really really strong

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Speaker 1: you know, that's a big thing. It would have been

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Speaker 1: a huge accusation with no founding other than goosebumps, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff. And especially to women listening,

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Speaker 1: those goosebumps and those feelings are a gift from God

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Speaker 1: that your body gives you. I'm not going to go

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Speaker 1: so far as to say it's the Holy Spirit. I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to say God has given us the ability

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Speaker 1: to sense danger as a way to protect ourselves and

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Speaker 1: our children and our families and our communities. So do

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Speaker 1: not disregard and pooh pooh those feelings. However, I remember

427
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Speaker 1: I actually had two scenarios like this the other scenario,

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Speaker 1: it was like I knew that the sin was coming,

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Speaker 1: but it hadn't happened yet, so I was just kind

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Speaker 1: of like watching and waiting. And then when it did

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Speaker 1: happen and it made a pretty big splash and hurt

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, again, I felt guilty. It was like, well,

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Speaker 1: should I have done something? So what do you think

434
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: about that? Did you experience any feelings like that?

435
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: I didn't, because I think because I was so far

436
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 2: removed from it, and when I was part of that congregation,

437
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 2: I was younger, and so I guess I didn't. Really

438
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,199
Speaker 2: I didn't have I guess you could call it guilt.

439
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: It wasn't guilt as much as like a correct perception

440
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 2: of reality all things, I mean, in the same way,

441
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 2: only on a different level and obviously more much more different.

442
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: When you find out someone has been cheating on you,

443
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: Like I had a boyfriend that I found out was

444
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: cheating on me, and I had this perception of what

445
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: our relationship was. When I found that out, it was

446
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: like kind of your world cracks and shatters and you

447
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: have to, like, you know, the tectonic plates shift and

448
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: you have to sort of reassess everything you know and

449
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: it was that same type of thing. But I wouldn't

450
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: say there was guilt because yeah, because I didn't have

451
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: an inkling and I wasn't as an adult fully formed

452
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: in the way I would take ownership. Do you know

453
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: what I mean? Like, if it happened now, i'd question myself,

454
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: but yeah, back then I didn't so much.

455
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, after finding out years after I'd been removed, I

456
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: would say for people who are struggling with that guilt,

457
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it can come in multioys, it can come

458
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: in why didn't I see this coming? Kind of in

459
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: the same way that you started questioning yourself, like, well,

460
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: if I got hoodwinked by this guy, what else might

461
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: I be wrong about? Or you know more For me,

462
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,880
Speaker 1: it was like, well should I have done something? Like

463
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: could I have stopped this? And what I came to

464
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 1: realize because I wrestled with it a lot, and I

465
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: think where I settled is premonitions a lot of time,

466
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 1: especially if it's premonitions about other people. Right Like if

467
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: I had a premonition about my own child, that would

468
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: be so different, but premonitions about other people. I think

469
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 1: my default has turned into I have received this premonition,

470
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: so that I can pray over this situation, and I

471
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: never assume that the premonition is there so that I

472
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: take some type of action beyond prayer, and then if

473
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: the prayer leads me to do something else, then I

474
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: do it. If not, the way I look at it,

475
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: it's almost like imagine the guilt you'd feel if you

476
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 1: had a bad feeling about someone going on a car trip,

477
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: you didn't say anything, and then they got in a

478
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: really bad accident, and so you're left wondering, like my

479
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: responsible for my loved one's death because I didn't say

480
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: that I had a bad feeling about this accident. And

481
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: where I have come to land is that that is

482
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: too much guilt for human shoulders, Like that's God territory.

483
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: That's like sovereign God territory. But where I would land

484
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: on that is you get the premonition, you pray, and

485
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: then if in prayer you're led to say something, God

486
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: will tell you that you're supposed to say something. If not,

487
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: So if I got a premonition, this is all hypothetical

488
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: that there was going to be like something wrong, Like

489
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 1: I'm nervous about my husband taking this road trip, and

490
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: so I go to pray and I don't get the

491
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,479
Speaker 1: sense of you need to bring this up to your husband,

492
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: so I don't, and then something devastating happens on the road.

493
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: Where I go to is not I am responsible for

494
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 1: my husband's accident, because again I think that's too much

495
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,720
Speaker 1: authority on a person and not on the Lord. But

496
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: where I go to is because I prayed it turned

497
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 1: out better than it would have otherwise, and so that's

498
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: how I handle the girl. I've got multiple story stories

499
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: of times where I wish I had prayed with somebody

500
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: or wondered if I was supposed to have shared a

501
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: premonition but didn't, And that's where I have settled on.

502
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 1: It's my premonition led me to pray, that prayer made

503
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: the outcome better than it would have been otherwise.

504
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 2: No, I think that's a very safe and humble, like

505
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 2: right where you're supposed to be way to deal with it,

506
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 2: because if you're too willy nilly with dishing out premonitions

507
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: like you could do some damage and to put it

508
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: in God's hands to the point of like, well, I

509
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 2: remember a time completely unrelated to church scandal, but like

510
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 2: my mother in law was supposed to be watching our

511
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: kids while like our kid at the time it was

512
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 2: only one. It would have been the first time I

513
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: would have been away from our son when he was little,

514
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: and my husband and I were going to go off

515
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: with some friends to see if football came in Nebraska

516
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: or something, and the morning we were supposed to leave,

517
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: she was like crying, and I mean we had plane tickets, everything,

518
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: and she was crying and she was like, I just

519
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 2: I don't think you should go. She's like meeting me,

520
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: She's like, I think if you leave, I just have

521
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: a bad feeling about how this is going to go

522
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 2: with our son. Anyway, it was it was a long story,

523
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: but basically she and she's like, I have been praying

524
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: about this since two in the morning, fighting God on it.

525
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: Not wanting to say this to you because I know

526
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: you're good, you know, I don't know what else to say.

527
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 2: But she's like, I just I feel like this is

528
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 2: not like you're not supposed to go right now. And

529
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 2: I don't know what it was about in retrospect, but

530
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: what I know about my mother in law is that

531
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: she is an amazing woman of God. She would do

532
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: anything for us or her grandkids. And it was way

533
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: at a character for her not to stay there and

534
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: be with, you know, and watch him. So I have

535
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: to believe, and I believe firmly that there was something

536
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: and they go without you or yeah, my husband, Yeah,

537
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: Matt went without me with everybody. And I cried the

538
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 2: whole way to the airport and Bob, I was like,

539
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: I needed this so badly. You know, I hadn't been

540
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: away from him in you know, a year, however long

541
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: it was, and I was so looking forward to it.

542
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: But I trust and even then, as disappointed as I was,

543
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 2: I was never mad at her, and I was never

544
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: ever I didn't ever doubt that she heard from God,

545
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 2: because I know that she was praying all of those hours,

546
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: and so all of that to say, if you're praying

547
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 2: and you feel God just pushing and pushing and pushing

548
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: you to say something, that's one thing.

549
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: Exactly, because here's another way to read it, you know,

550
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: knowing what I know of your mother in law, and

551
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: I don't think i've ever met her, like I think

552
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: everybody did exactly what they were supposed to do. I

553
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: could see another scenario where there's just a grandma who's

554
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: really nervous to be alone with the grand baby, right

555
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,839
Speaker 1: and turns that into an anxiety spiral, and then her

556
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 1: brain just kind of warps that into God told me

557
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 1: that you shouldn't do this right, And so that's why

558
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: it's always you always have to check the source. You

559
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: always have to just take everything with that grain of salt.

560
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: Always go back to your own prayer closet with it. Never,

561
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: no matter how godly somebody is, if there's no other takeaway,

562
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 1: especially when we're talking about how easy it is for

563
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: church scandals and for church leaders to fall into horrifics

564
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: and never an individual at their word, no matter how

565
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,319
Speaker 1: how close you are to them. You know, I mean

566
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: very very small exceptions. You know, you and your husband,

567
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: you and me, you and your mother in law, Like

568
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: somebody that you know is going to like jump in

569
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: front of that frame for you, and you trust their

570
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: spiritual instinct. Still pray about it, but you know it's

571
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: it's not the same as like sometimes like just keep

572
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: your guard up and never put it down. Like if

573
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: I'm just walking through Walmart and some person just comes

574
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: up to me and starts rambling that God's going to

575
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: do something terrible to my kid, I'm not giving that

576
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: person any spiritual attention like, if anything, I'm going to

577
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: be praying hard for protection against that person, do you

578
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And I will also trust that

579
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: if God truly has a message for me, that He's

580
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: going to deliver it to me in a way that

581
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to understand. Like that's why angels didn't come

582
00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: and speak in foreign languages to you know, the Old

583
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: Testament prophets, or if they did, like somehow the prophets

584
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 1: knew exactly what they were saying. Like, so God's going

585
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: to talk to us in ways that we get And

586
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: for me, that's not going to be the weirdo who

587
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: comes up and wraps on my window at a red

588
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 1: light and scares me, you know exactly.

589
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean it's like anything any kind of advice,

590
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: any kind of word from the Lord or anything like that. Yeah,

591
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: it's need to use caution.

592
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and presumably nothing terrible happened to you, your

593
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: child or anybody who went to the football game. Correct.

594
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 2: No, And to be a little bit more clear, it

595
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 2: was I believe the context of what she felt was

596
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 2: that it would be traumatic for him for.

597
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: Me to leave.

598
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 2: I can't remember how old he was, but you know,

599
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:55,439
Speaker 2: she lived states away they had not had a whole

600
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: live interaction. Yeah, and so it had to do with

601
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 2: his response to me being away when we were so attached.

602
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 2: And yeah, again she is the kind of like she

603
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: was really looking forward to staying with him. So again

604
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: it went completely against what she would have chosen, which

605
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: gave her and me kind of that confidence of like, yeah,

606
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: that it doesn't add up. And since then they've watched

607
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: our kids tons of times and never had any bad feelings,

608
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 2: so I don't.

609
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, Yeah, it didn't have to be something hugely dramatic.

610
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: It could have been something as simple as like nothing

611
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: horrible would have happened at all. Like I love thinking

612
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: that God has every single multiverse opportunity in his brain.

613
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that I believe that there's like an

614
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: infinite number of Jamie's who all made different decisions, but

615
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: I think we see it in Matthew, where Jesus says,

616
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: if Sodom and Gomorrah had seen what you see today,

617
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: they would have repented. So at the very least, Sara,

618
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: are certain scenarios where God knows the hypothetical what if

619
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: he knows what it would have happened? And what I

620
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: love to think is maybe had you gone, nothing terrible

621
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: would have happened that day, Nothing terrible would have happened

622
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: that year, maybe ten years from now. You're going to

623
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: need to trust a strange word from the Lord that

624
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 1: comes through your mother in law or comes from somebody else,

625
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 1: and because you've practiced doing that, you're going to make

626
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: the right decision in that moment, and you're going to

627
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: save your child's life. Right Like, we never fully know

628
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 1: all the details, but what I'm saying is I think

629
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: there's a certain personality, and I will go ahead in

630
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: public peek confess I might fall into this personality. I

631
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: had been your mother in law, there would have been

632
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: and I would have hated this aspect of myself. But

633
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 1: I'm guessing there would have been an anybody fraction that

634
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: almost wanted something bad to happen, like nobody to get hurt,

635
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 1: but just so that I could be like, oh it right,

636
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: you know, so that so that I could give myself

637
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: that pat on the head, and also so that I

638
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: could not feel like I was the crazy lady who

639
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: flaked out on my sun and his family. But we don't.

640
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 1: We're not given that benefit. I love that asen says,

641
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: you remember that quote in Narnia. Asthen says it in

642
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: a couple of the different books. I think he says

643
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: suddenly like we never get to know the the what ifs,

644
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: but he says it, I think in a more poetic way,

645
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 1: and so we don't know, but don't. What I'm saying is,

646
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: inasmuch as you can in that say you don't wish

647
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: for the bad thing to happen to prove yourself right.

648
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: It's way better for everything to go totally right and

649
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: for you to look a little bit like you overreacted.

650
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in that case, who knows, developed antally there

651
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: might have needed you their attachment wise, that really had

652
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: to happen at that critical part of his development, and

653
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: we will never know, but.

654
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: He might not be at west Point right now if

655
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: it hadn't been for that decision. Then I wish I

656
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: had gone yeah, right, yeah, Now, well back to scandals

657
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: and things. I would love to end with just I

658
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,759
Speaker 1: think we've talked about the empathy that we can have

659
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: and showing how the ripples are farther reaching than you

660
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 1: would expect, and I would love to close with what

661
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: to do if you are in that ripple? Right, now,

662
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: or just takeaways that you can hold on to, like

663
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,360
Speaker 1: a life raft that you can keep under your seat

664
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: in case you ever are in that ripple. So, I

665
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 1: guess imagine that you are involved in a scandal that

666
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: does hit a lot closer to home than anything you

667
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: or I have gone through before. What truths would you

668
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:56,959
Speaker 1: hope that in the worst of those moments you would

669
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: have to hold on to?

670
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 2: I guess the first one is just that no matter

671
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: what happens, God is in it, even when it doesn't

672
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 2: look like it, even when it looks like what you

673
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,479
Speaker 2: thought God was has been shattered, because you might think, well,

674
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: of course God is going to protect. Of course God

675
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: is going to make sure that corruption stays out of

676
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 2: his you know, holy place. So I think definitely remembering

677
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 2: that God is all in all things. God is at

678
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 2: work for those who love Him and who are called

679
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: according to His purpose. To realize that it's okay to grieve,

680
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 2: and it's okay to be angry, and it's okay to

681
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: take a break if you need to that, you know,

682
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I know sometimes there needs to be a

683
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: time of separating yourself out. And I'm a proponent of

684
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: meeting with the body of Christ. But if you need

685
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: to step back temporarily to heal, to regroup, to process,

686
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: to figure things out by all means. But at the

687
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: same time, I would say, please, don't disconnect and take

688
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: a break from God. You know, during that time, just

689
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 2: remember that God can handle your anger, he can handle

690
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: your frustration, He can handle you beating your fists against

691
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 2: his chest and asking why, and to do that in

692
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 2: his direction rather than running away and trying to process

693
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 2: it yourself, because that's not going to end well, you know,

694
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: it's just going to end with a lot of pain.

695
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 2: You're still going to have the pain you're just going

696
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 2: to have. You know, You're going to block yourself from

697
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: God's work to help you heal. And I think the

698
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 2: thing that I am not sure I'm qualified to answer

699
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: is the question of what do we do with Absolutely

700
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 2: we know what to do with the victims. We love them,

701
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: we strive for restoration and conversation, we believe them. But

702
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 2: what do we do with the person who was responsible

703
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: for the fall?

704
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, the Bible I think has a perfect prescription

705
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 1: of that. You take him out the city gates in

706
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 1: new Stonam. Yeah, right, that's all. That's literally all there

707
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: is a camp. No, of course, everybody knows I'm being facetious.

708
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: That is a very hard one because I think we

709
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: need to put church leaders who fall into scandal into camps.

710
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: I think we need to put some into the camp

711
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 1: of a believer who fell into sin and was remorseful

712
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: and a narcissist who joined church leadership because they like

713
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: being in that position of power, and they like being

714
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: surrounded by yes men and yes women, and no matter

715
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: what happens, if given the opportunity, they would do what

716
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 1: they did again and again and again. And really good

717
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 1: narcissists are not going to show their colors super easily

718
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: to let you know which camp they're in. So I

719
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: would say one of the wisest things is to and

720
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: obviously not many of us are going to be in

721
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 1: a position of like creating church by laws, but I

722
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: think it is very important for churches to have smart

723
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: safeguards in place for not giving one individual carte launch

724
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: authority and also not giving a board so much authority

725
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: that like, the pastor says one thing that two of

726
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: them don't like, and now that pastor's out on the curb,

727
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: having some kind of balance there, and so much is preventative.

728
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 1: It is praying not only for your like for your leader,

729
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: or for the person who might be who's fall into

730
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: sin would be the most likely or the most disasters

731
00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: for your congregation, but for the advisors and surrounding that person,

732
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: because truly they should be the first line of defense.

733
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: But again it gets very hard because some people are

734
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: going to pool everybody. And I read a really disturbing

735
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: fact that I have since gone back and corroborated more

736
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,360
Speaker 1: than once because I don't want to believe it's true.

737
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: But of like the top five jobs that a narcissist

738
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: is most like, a clinical classic narcissist is most drawn too.

739
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: Clergy is on that list because they are in a

740
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: position to control and manipulate. And like you said, a

741
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: lot of people take their guard down more in a

742
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: church than they would in a business room or something

743
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: like that. So prayer and grace, but so much diligence.

744
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 1: There are some people who I am going to go

745
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: on record standing shouldn't be reinstated. I don't care how

746
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: sorry you make me think that you are. At the moment.

747
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: What's hard is to put on a piece of paper

748
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: steps to know whether you are under the camp of

749
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:17,720
Speaker 1: repentant sinner who should be not immediately reinstated in most cases, ever,

750
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: is my opinion, but on a path toward reconciliation to

751
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: your church and potentially to a position of leadership. And

752
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 1: again I think that's where an elder board would come in.

753
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: I don't think that any church should operate without a

754
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 1: shared leadership amongst multiple people, so that if the lead

755
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: pastor falls into sin and it's not so heinous that

756
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: they immediately just get fired and never come back, that

757
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,640
Speaker 1: there will be steps to say, okay, for example, like

758
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 1: six months, you're welcome to attend and worship with us,

759
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: but you are not going to speak upfront after that time.

760
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: If you show us I mean basically like you might

761
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: do in an intervention, right after that point in time,

762
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 1: if you can show us that you have done this, this,

763
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: and this, then we will invite you to do the

764
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: opening prayer right and with the goal of continued reinstatements

765
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,840
Speaker 1: to the point where it is wise. And some of

766
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: that wisdom is for the protection of the church. Some

767
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: of that wisdom is for the protection spiritually of the

768
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: repentant pastor or the repentant sinner, because if they get

769
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: thrust back into the spotlight too quickly without addressing what

770
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,479
Speaker 1: led them into sin in the first place. They are

771
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 1: such rpe picking for it to happen again. So sadly

772
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: I don't have a check these three boxes, and then

773
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 1: this person gets kicked out and should never preach anymore

774
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: and check these three boxes, and this person should be

775
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: on a path toward reinstatement. But I would say, if

776
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 1: we're going to air, let's air on the side of

777
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 1: being more gracious in our hearts towards somebody, more protective

778
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,840
Speaker 1: in our actions towards the church. If that makes sense,

779
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,240
Speaker 1: extend the benefit of the doubt more to the person

780
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: who sins than you might feel they deserve, but be

781
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:21,760
Speaker 1: even more cautious about protecting the safety of the members

782
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: of your congregation. Right, So, if that means airing on

783
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: the side of somebody getting their feelings hurt because they're

784
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: not reinstated as quickly as they want to, but it's

785
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: the best decision for the safety of the church, to me,

786
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: that still makes more sense. But I do believe that

787
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: there's a way to do that while still extending a

788
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: lot of grace in your heart. And that's where I

789
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: think a lot of Christians fail, it's got to be

790
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 1: one or the other.

791
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 2: I think you're absolutely right there. I love the way

792
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 2: you put that. I think that sums it up perfectly

793
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: because a pattern I see in several of these prominent

794
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 2: church scandals, and I'll just name them. There's Bethel was

795
00:48:57,120 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 2: one of the big ones that had like not just

796
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:04,879
Speaker 2: instituttionetional issues, but there were like individuals associated with them

797
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,280
Speaker 2: who were preying on people in a number of ways,

798
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,600
Speaker 2: and they were just allowed to run rampant and reinstated.

799
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 2: And when they were called out for misbehavior and sin,

800
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 2: the people accusing them were being chastised for either causing

801
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 2: a man of God to stumble or on the other hand,

802
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 2: not be extending enough forgiveness and basically just allowing them

803
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: to continue to prosper. And I think, did I say

804
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: Bethel Endhell Song? And then there are the people within,

805
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: Like the Southern Baptist Convention has been elevated lately, you know,

806
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,960
Speaker 2: in the last ten years or so, it's been exposed

807
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: that they've been covering things up, and the you know,

808
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: every denomination I think has been called out. And I

809
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 2: think this idea of let's just the good old boys

810
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: network let's just let's just pat him on the back

811
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 2: and let them keep going while ignoring or shunning or

812
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 2: qualifying victims. And then the other side that you have

813
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 2: is people who are just going to be casting stones

814
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:11,720
Speaker 2: constantly and never giving anyone the opportunity or the option

815
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 2: to show repentance and to show that they, you know,

816
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: can still be used by God, you know, to use

817
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: their gifts to edify the church body. But what you said,

818
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,320
Speaker 2: I think two things that are paramount. One, love God

819
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: with all your heart right and love your neighbor as yourself.

820
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,120
Speaker 2: So if we do those two things, we are loving

821
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: the body of Christ enough not to allow them to

822
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 2: be put in any danger whatsoever. I'm going to read this.

823
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: I didn't get to our verse of the day, but

824
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 2: I'm going to read it because it's really relevant to

825
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: what you just said. This is Ezekiel thirty four to

826
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,400
Speaker 2: two from the NIV, Son of Man prophesy against the

827
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 2: shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, this is

828
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: what the sovereign Lord says, woe to use shepherds of Israel,

829
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: who only take care of yourselves. Should not shepherds take

830
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 2: care of the So it's loving the body of Christ

831
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,320
Speaker 2: enough to protect them and shield them from any hint

832
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: of possibility of being defiled or let astray or hurt.

833
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 2: But then on the other hand, that like love of

834
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: Jesus who ate with the tax collectors and the prostitutes

835
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 2: and did not condemn but just loved them and challenged

836
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 2: them to live righteous lives, so they can both exist

837
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 2: in the same place. It's not not loving someone or

838
00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: not forgiving someone to set boundaries to protect the body

839
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: of Christ. And if we could learn to do those

840
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 2: both well, which is so hard in practice, Yeah, the

841
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 2: church would be a lot healthier.

842
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. I want to close with a picture of something

843
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:53,919
Speaker 1: I saw as an outsider looking in. So I'm sure

844
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,400
Speaker 1: it was not as simplistic as I'm going to make it.

845
00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 1: But I was in a community where I went to

846
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 1: Church A, and I was aware that at Church B,

847
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: the pastor had had an affair and the church was

848
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:15,320
Speaker 1: really reeling after the fact. And what I saw, again

849
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: being fairly removed. So this is going to be oversimplified,

850
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 1: but what I saw was a church who was heartbroken

851
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: for themselves, for their pastor, especially for his wife. I

852
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,240
Speaker 1: saw her like when people would see her at the store.

853
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: They would go out of their way to give her

854
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: hugs and be like, how are you doing, how are

855
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,439
Speaker 1: things going? We are praying for you. Now. Certain personalities

856
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: that might be worse, but I saw extensions of so

857
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: much love and appreciation, where so many of our defaults

858
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:52,399
Speaker 1: would be to like, oh, I don't want to say

859
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:57,919
Speaker 1: anything because this is so awkward. And I saw the

860
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: pastor being removed from the pulpit, but not from the church,

861
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: and that is, in my opinion, difficult, beautiful and gracious

862
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: for everybody involved. For the church and the elders to say,

863
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: we cannot have you preaching, but we don't want you

864
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:23,439
Speaker 1: to leave, and for him to say, this has got

865
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: to be the most awkward, painful thing in the world.

866
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 1: But this is my family and my home. I saw

867
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 1: just that quick snapshot. I have no idea how it ended.

868
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: I have no idea all of the tears and drama

869
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: that you know went on behind all the closed doors.

870
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 1: But I thought that was a beautiful picture and a

871
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: beautiful testimony, especially for non believers to go and look at.

872
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 1: The church was not being naive. They weren't saying, oh, oh,

873
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 1: he's fine. He just made this one mistake but they

874
00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 1: also weren't saying you're not welcome here, and your wife

875
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: is disgusting because she obviously did something wrong for her

876
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: husband to have had an affair. You know, I guess

877
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: our impromptu blessing to close is, may we all find

878
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: that degree of both grace and wisdom and discernments to

879
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: be protecting of the flocks that were part of and

880
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 1: also to be gracious towards those who are imperfect, which

881
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,400
Speaker 1: is all of us, and to know how to be

882
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:31,800
Speaker 1: so gracious and so protective at the same time while

883
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: guarding our hearts from cynicism and bitterness. Amen. Amen.

884
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: We'd like to take just a quick second to thank

885
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 2: the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us

886
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 2: on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

887
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 2: you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in

888
00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 2: their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

889
00:54:56,560 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 2: and so much more. That's life audio dot Com on