1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Gillian Ross. She's a professor of 11 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: Biblical studies at Liberty University, and she wrote an article 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: for the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Study that we're 13 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: going to be discussing today as well as just discussing 14 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: the Book of Judges a little bit more generally. But 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: the title of the article is let Mercy Triumph over Judgment. 16 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: A Theology of Law and Judges. And I found the 17 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: article really helpful and pretty fascinating. And you all know 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: I'm an Old Testament geek anyway, so I thought it'd 19 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: be a great idea to have doctor Ross on to 20 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: discuss this. So welcome to the program. Thanks for being here. 21 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: Well, thanks so much for having me. It's a joy 22 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 2: to be with you. And it's always a joy to 23 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 2: talk about judges with a fellow old testamate nerd. 24 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: Yeah that's right or whatever. Yeah, exactly. I really appreciated 25 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: the article because I think it helped address some of 26 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: the challenges that I think people have when they read 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: through the Book of Judges. I'm done a fair amount 28 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: of work on the Jeff in the narrative, and so 29 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: that narrative in and of itself, or Jeff that gives 30 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: this vow that he's going to sacrifice his only daughter, 31 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: you know if God, Well, he doesn't actually vow that, 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: but it ends up that way. He carries out this 33 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: vow and you kind of sit back and you go, man, 34 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: what's going on here? Like it seems like such an 35 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: ethical and theological dilemma. And I really feel like your 36 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: article helps to frame this out a little bit. So 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: maybe give a little bit of an introduction into what 38 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: you're arguing in the article, and then we can talk 39 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: a little bit more about some specific instances and judges. 40 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 2: Sure, thank you. So the article is addressing the fact 41 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: that the Book of Judges is showing kind of a 42 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: decline of spirituality of its people, including its leaders. And 43 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 2: then what's consistent though, is God that his character is merciful, 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: and that as the book starts out, you see God 45 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: acting mercifully and in accordance with his word to the Judges, 46 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: to the Israelites. But then as the book kind of shifts, 47 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 2: you start seeing the leaders like Gideon acting mercilessly and 48 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: unaware of the scriptures. And so when you get to Jeptha, 49 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: you're showing not only the ignorance of the law, but 50 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: his lawlessness in it. That doesn't jive not only with 51 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: the at the plane reading the story like it's supposed 52 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: to make you feel like what's going on, but that 53 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: the Bible itself is teaching us to have a merciful 54 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: posture that prioritizes human life and dignity. 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I thought that was a really helpful way 56 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: of framing the law. I think, you know, you reference 57 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,959 Speaker 1: Dan Block's perspective on this and the way he addresses 58 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: the Tora. But I'm wondering if you can talk a 59 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: little bit more about why this is important, so you 60 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: have I wouldn't say maybe you would, but like laws 61 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: that stand intention and so you can imagine at some point, 62 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's almost like if we brought it into 63 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: a contemporary example. You know, if you've got somebody in 64 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: the car who's bleeding out, do you break the speed limit? 65 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: And that's almost the sort of conundrum that you're trying 66 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: to address here, like how do I care for a 67 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: neighbor if I have to break a separate law? Like 68 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: where do these two meet? And how do we resolve 69 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: that tension? So maybe give a little bit of an 70 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: introduction to that idea. 71 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that that's a great point, and it's 72 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: actually commonplace in societies where you're gonna have two things 73 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: that are in contrast and you have That's why we 74 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: have judges. That's why we have like difficult cases that 75 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: go to trial, is because you have two facets of 76 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 2: a situation that aren't working well together. So for example, 77 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: in the situation, we would say, of course we want 78 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: to speed to get that person to the hospital. Like 79 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: you see that with when I was born, I was 80 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: almost born in the car, so my dad was breaking 81 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: the speed limit to get there and we barely made it. 82 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: So praise God, I'm here today because my dad bro 83 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: the speed limit. But we have other situations like Jeff 84 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 2: though where he made a vow is quite ill crafted 85 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 2: because it said anything coming out of my house. And 86 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: then you have a law basically that says don't sacrifice humans, 87 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: and with that law you get a further clarification that 88 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 2: it's in an abomination. So despite popular belief, there really 89 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: is a ranking, I would say in the Old Testament 90 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: of like what's particularly abhorrent to the Lord, and lack 91 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: of dignity to human life is one of them. So 92 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 2: then you kind of look at, well, what's competing do 93 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 2: you want to sin by not fulfilling a vow, which 94 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: is a very serious thing, you know, driving crazy over 95 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: the speed limit is a very serious thing too, But 96 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: trying to preserve a human life and getting to the 97 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: hospital kind of outranks that. And so this is the 98 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 2: same thing where the right thing to do for Jepsa 99 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: would be to find a substitute. And we actually find 100 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 2: that several times in scripture, in narratives we have with Saul, 101 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 2: he wanted to sacrifice or kill his son because he 102 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 2: had eaten unknowingly. That's right, And so what happens then 103 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: is that the people, or you could maybe translate to 104 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: the army, they say, hey, wait, he was the deliverer, 105 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 2: the human deliverer behind this war, so we have to 106 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: let's redeem him. And so they came up with a 107 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: redemption solution. 108 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, sort of. What's fascinating even about that narrative of 109 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: Saul is you see these instances where Saul is constantly 110 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: swayed by the people, and so the fact that the 111 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: people are willing to redeem Jonathan speaks to in that 112 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: instance at least their character. You know that they're moving 113 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: saw towards something good, normally they're moving salt towards something 114 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: kind of bad. And the rest of the book, and 115 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: so you have these mixed motives. I mean, if we 116 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: look at I'll be honest, I mean I thought through 117 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: this a little bit with regard to Jeffa, and this 118 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: notion that Jeftha not keeping his vow very well could 119 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: have had consequences for Jeftha, although it wouldn't have had 120 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 1: consequences then for his daughter. And so there is a 121 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: sense in which I'd als sort of thought of Jeffa, 122 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: as you know, his ambition to get back to a 123 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: place where he thought he should be and you know, 124 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: rule over Israel as Judge so clouded his judgment that 125 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 1: he just goes through with it. And it's really an 126 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: act of selfishness and you know, all the bad things 127 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: that you can think of to ascribe to somebody, that's 128 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: what Jeffa's doing in that moment. I hadn't really thought 129 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: of it in terms of Gideon. And you do a 130 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: lot of work in that Gideon narrative, and so maybe 131 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: give a little bit of a parallel to what goes 132 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: on with that Gideon narrative. After God, you know, does 133 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: all these amazing things through Gideon, and he whittles his 134 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: army down and he gets the victory, and then Gideon 135 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: turns almost sadistic. 136 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so if we think about the Gideon story, it's 137 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: kind of two parts in A and a B. And 138 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: the A part where we have our Sunday school stories. 139 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 2: The best moments of Gideon, which I think are really positive, 140 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: is where he's really good. And then it's almost sort 141 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: of like a Chapter Jekyll to mister Hyde because he 142 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: starts flipping. And that's how the book works. The book 143 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: has Gideon at the center, and he's also the theological center. 144 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: Of the book. Not page wise is he the center 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: per se, but story wise he's the middle judge, and 146 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 2: we end up having this pivot between fairly positive worship 147 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: when the leader is with the Lord and early positive 148 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 2: warfare and living and then you go and after that 149 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: second half of Gideon, you start having like the negative warfare. 150 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: So he's spoiler alert for those that haven't read that 151 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 2: section of Gideon. A while. He he does civil warny, 152 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 2: he tortures Israelites, and then and then he famously makes 153 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: a cultic object and all israel it says, prostitutes after it. 154 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: So he leads Israel into a snare of somewhat faulse 155 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 2: or a technical term synchronistic worship, where they're worshiping the 156 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: right God wrongly. And so Gideon stands at a very 157 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: interesting spot in that book for that reason. And then 158 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 2: the next story is Japtha. So not to get too 159 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 2: much into the weeds, but what we say see in 160 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 2: the beginning part of this story is God he goes 161 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: to Jeptha, excuse me, he goes to Gideon and he's like, hey, 162 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: go deliver Israel, and Gideon's like, hey, God, abandon us, 163 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 2: and he doesn't realize that God is right there face 164 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 2: to face with him, and then he is convinced he 165 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 2: has to purify the group, so he kills the veil 166 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 2: Altar and the astro policy he's ritually desecrating them and 167 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: exalting the Lord. And then at that point it's so beautiful. 168 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: I think it's often overlooked, is that God has Gideon, 169 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: whose whole area was worshiping a false God. He honors 170 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: them and lets them lead in the battle. They were 171 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 2: just days ago wanting to kill Gideon because he tore 172 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: down the veil structure. But God, God is merciful and 173 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 2: he allows this like conversion to lead into the battle. 174 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 2: But Gideon, on the other hand, when he says, hey, 175 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: you people on the other side of the Jordan, I'm 176 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: pursuing the bad guys that have been impressing us. They're life. 177 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: We're not going on your side. You know when we'll 178 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: give you food and will help you when you actually 179 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:29,479 Speaker 2: bring these people down, And he has no mercy for them, 180 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 2: and he ends up saying, hey, you were on my side. 181 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to torture you and I'm going to kill 182 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 2: all these these people in your town. He just didn't 183 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 2: extend mercy like the Lord. So as the leader, when 184 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 2: the story lines with what God was doing and what 185 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: Gideon were doing were in line, Gideon doesn't act like God. 186 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: And as leaders of God's people, you know him and 187 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: then we, by extension as church leaders, should do that 188 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: as well. So yeah, so then you just see Jeptha 189 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: kind of acting selfishly and self interest. 190 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing I've always found, well, a couple of thoughts. 191 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: So number one, this idea that you know, because the 192 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 1: leaders aren't following through on God's mercy, I'm wondering, you know, 193 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: as I'm thinking through the Gideon and the Jefa incident, 194 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: and then I want to ask you about Samson at 195 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: some point. But when you just look at the Gideon 196 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 1: and the Jeffa incident, it feels like what's happening is 197 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: both of them are stuck in a situation where they 198 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: don't feel they have the option of loving neighbor. In 199 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: other words, they they're trying to achieve something for whatever reason. 200 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: Then they both have their different motivations, but love for 201 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: neighbor doesn't seem like it's going to help them accomplish 202 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: what they want to accomplish, and so they completely abandon right, 203 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 1: and so God it's almost as if they forget God 204 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: is there, which is really interesting and odd, I think 205 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: in both stories because to your point, you know, Gideon 206 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: starts there, then he has this miraculous victory where it's 207 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: clear that God is present with him, and then he 208 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: sort of falls into this problem. Jeptha is odd because 209 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: even though God goes silent, right, sort of the last 210 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: narrative thing we hear from God is you all wanted 211 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: to worship your idols? Why don't you go ask them 212 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: for help? As the readers know that God is going 213 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: to help Israel, but Jetha really does seem to know 214 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: and narrates the history of God's deliverance to his enemy, 215 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: and so it's like he's aware that God has delivered ongoing, 216 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: but then feels like he has to make this vow 217 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: almost because as he gets closer and closer to battle, 218 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: he's going, oh, man, I may not get this done. 219 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: Is that sort of a fair way to understand what's 220 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: going on here? That that that that absence of focus 221 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: on the Lord, a lack of attentiveness to God and 222 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: his presence, is driving now both of these characters to 223 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: do things that simply because they don't think love of 224 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: neighbor is going to get them done. 225 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really good observation on that, James. 226 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 2: I I think you're right, because the spirit is already 227 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 2: on Jeptha. The spirits come upon him when he makes 228 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 2: the vow, and he kept saying when the Lord delivers. 229 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 2: So I think I'm just going to go on a 230 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 2: side note for sec I think this is why he 231 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: can be in the Hall of Faith and Guinea is 232 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 2: as well, because at as William Lane says, at the 233 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: critical moment, they have extraordinary faith, and so does Stampson 234 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 2: that you can tear down ahead of this. So at 235 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: that point, like they we have that part going, but 236 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: the love of the neighbor is is really not there. 237 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: I think. Another scholar, Elias says he has a book 238 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: entitled Self Interest Versus Communal Interest in these later narratives 239 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: on judges, and it's basically that point that they've lacked 240 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 2: the communal party. What I think happened is they're untethered 241 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: to the word of God, and the word of God 242 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 2: in Leviticus is saying, love your neighbor as yourself, and 243 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: love the Lord your God with all your heart and 244 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: so that's s Deuteronomy. So when you lose those core 245 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: facets and don't know those other parts of the law, 246 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: and it seems like the other people don't or are 247 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: careless to the fact, that's when things just go wrong. 248 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: And I find you know you mentioned the spirit coming 249 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: upon Jeffa. I've had a number of conversations with students 250 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: over the years as to why the spirit comes upon 251 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: Jeffa and then he makes the vow, And a lot 252 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: of students that I've taught wanted to make a causal 253 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: connection between the spirit coming on Jeptha and then him 254 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: making the vow, and my encouragement is, no, you actually 255 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: should see this in a different way. It highlights that 256 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: the vow is completely unnecessary. The spirit has come upon 257 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: Jeffa to empower him to go and fight this battle, 258 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: and he's going to win now. But Jeffa, in his 259 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: zeal to get done what he's really looking to get done. 260 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: I usually frame it as he's trying to piggyback. He's 261 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, sort of tie his ambitions to 262 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: what God is going to do. Anyway, he makes this vow, 263 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: and I said, if you reverse those if he made 264 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: the vow, and then the spirit came on him. It 265 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: would feel like a divine endorsement. But the way it's 266 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: structured in the narrative, it's like, no, this is now 267 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: just unnecessary. Is that how you'd kind of see that 268 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: as well? 269 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it that way as well, because in 270 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: the other stories you have the spirit upon them too, 271 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:06,920 Speaker 2: and like the spirits upon the individual, they're impelled and 272 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: they're successful. It wasn't like our time or we always 273 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: have the spirit. But I think going back to the 274 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: student that you're talking to, one of the things I 275 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 2: bring up with my students is we have the spirit, 276 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 2: and sometimes we act in ways that are contrary. Or 277 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: we have leaders that were like, how did this scandal 278 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,440 Speaker 2: happen with this leader? And we forget that even though 279 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: there's the spirit, people can violate and quench the spirit. 280 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 2: It's not exactly what's happening there in Judges. But yeah, 281 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: I think the order is important to show that it 282 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 2: was unnecessary and people have been looking at this for centuries. 283 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: I was just reading kind of a reception history and 284 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 2: even an art of how this issue has been debated. 285 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: Interesting, So let me let me ask my Samson questions. 286 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: So there's part of me. So Gideon torturing Israelites, right, 287 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: Jeffa sacrificing his own kin, and then Samson pulling the 288 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: pillars down, you know, and crushing the the I think 289 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get this right. I've been in for Samuel 290 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: a little too much. Maybe Philistines? Am I right about that? 291 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? 292 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, So Samson crushing the Philistines, I'm seeing that as 293 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: a completely different thing because you're dealing with Israelites versus Philistines. 294 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: How do you how do you view that with Samson? 295 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: Because he does some really I mean, Samson is just 296 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 1: a crazy character anyway, Like he does a lot of 297 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: different stuff. But yeah, how do you think about Samson 298 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: from within this grid that you're providing. 299 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 2: So Sampson he also has self interest because he's he's 300 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: not interested in delivering Israel. So even when you read 301 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 2: the text at the end, he's like, let me, let 302 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: me tear this down to have vengeance on my eyes. 303 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,640 Speaker 2: You know, it's like all these people deserve to die 304 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: because my eyes and and so God does it. I 305 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: think here we see God's agenda is one thing, and 306 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: the delivers agenda, the beginning of delivering is not into 307 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 2: delivering but God's gonna use his request to fulfill his function, 308 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 2: which was to show that he was more powerful than 309 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: the other gods and accomplished in the beginnings. And I 310 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,959 Speaker 2: think it's a really sad commentary because I think the 311 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 2: real key is the Gaza story. It's only a few verses. 312 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: That's where he goes to a prostitute in the middle 313 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 2: of the now and then partially leaves, and then to 314 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: show off, he breaks the gates and has it open. 315 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: So I like to talk to my students and others 316 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: and say, okay, if you know Lord of the Rings, 317 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 2: you know the Battle of Helm's deep, and you've got 318 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 2: this orc and he's got that torch and he is 319 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 2: charging and what do you see? The whole like everything 320 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: focuses on that because you know, as soon as that 321 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 2: gate comes, all the bad guys are going to storm 322 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 2: the gate and everybody's going to be sacked. Is the 323 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 2: normal process. But what does Sampson do. He goes to Hebron, 324 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: and most of us are like, all right, he went 325 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 2: to Hebron with the gates, and we think it's like 326 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: just up the road. No, it's forty miles. As the 327 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: crow flies, and so he never says, hey, everybody, let's 328 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: storm the gates, you know, let's go in, let's deliver Israel. 329 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: Like there's there's nothing. I mean, do you matter how 330 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: many people would see him with those gates in forty miles? 331 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: I don't care how much of a superman he is. 332 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: You know, it's absurd he so cares nothing for delivering Israel. 333 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: So I think that shows the progression of just God's prerogatives. Nothing. 334 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 2: And in a similar story, just beforehand, the Judais are like, hey, 335 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: don't you know that the Philistines are controlled? They have 336 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 2: no desire for a hay stamps and do you want 337 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 2: to try to deliver us? You're pretty strong either. So 338 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 2: there's just no interest in God there, and it's culminated 339 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 2: in I want to destroy these people from my eyes. 340 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such a weird if Samson does exhibit almost 341 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: like that anth degree of selfishness, even though he's the 342 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: he's probably one of the more powerful judges that you see. 343 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, he's got this extraordinary strength. Is really interesting, 344 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 1: but ultimately he yeah, I agree, he doesn't seem to 345 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: care about much of anything, and so the fact that 346 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: he ends up destroying the Philostines at the end, do 347 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: you see that as maybe quasi ironic, but also more 348 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: as an outworking of God's sovereign deliverance despite Samson not 349 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: tied necessarily to that love of neighbor bit. 350 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think he loves anybody really but himself. 351 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: He I mean, his first marriage, he just kind of 352 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: goes home and pouts and then comes back. 353 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 1: Right. 354 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 2: He's like I thought the father, I thought he hated her, 355 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 2: and so yeah, it's just God, I think, despite Israel 356 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: And interesting at the end of Jetsa, he there's a 357 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 2: civil war against the civil war kind of happens at 358 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 2: the end of Gideon, and it then goes to Jephtha 359 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:13,719 Speaker 2: and Jeffa's like killing of the Afriamites is one of 360 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 2: the biggest losses that are in that passage, and they 361 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: were the ones at the beginning of the book with 362 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: Ehood that we're fighting off the Moabites. So it's it's 363 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,199 Speaker 2: kind of a sad commentary that you've got, like not 364 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: only just stuff that kills his daughter, he kills a 365 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 2: whole bunch of Israelites. Gideon started that a Bibili did 366 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 2: some too, and then Samson he doesn't really kill a 367 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 2: lot of Israelites. But he doesn't really do any delivery, right. 368 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: It's almost like the people he kills, the things that 369 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: he does, he's not at all motivated by any sort 370 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: of deliverance of anybody. It's like these people are bob me, 371 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: and now I'm going to do this extraordinary feat and 372 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: they just happened. This just happens to move in the 373 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 1: direction of God's deliverance, right, And it's coincidental almost. 374 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And he doesn't even know when the spirit leaves him, 375 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: when his eyes get couched out. And so I think 376 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 2: that's a significant commentary on the sad state of his heart, 377 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: that here he's got all this power that he can't 378 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: even tell when it's when the Lord leaves him. 379 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: So, when we're thinking about love of neighbor within the 380 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: Book of Judges, maybe here's my question. When I read 381 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: the Gospels and I see the the question being posed 382 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: to Jesus which is the greatest commandment? And then you know, 383 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: you get that part where it's like, well, then who 384 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: is our neighbor? 385 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 3: Right? 386 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,439 Speaker 1: I think the way I've understood that is you go 387 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: back to Leviticus and you see within Leviticus sixteen, I 388 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: think I'm getting right that that we have, you know, 389 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: one command to love our neighbors ourselves that's related to 390 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,239 Speaker 1: fellow Israelites, and one command that is to love our 391 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: neighbors as ourselves related to the sojournals living among us. 392 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 1: And so it seems to me that within the Gospel's context, 393 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: what we're really getting is where we just talking Israelites, 394 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: where we're talking everybody here Jesus, Like, what does that 395 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: look like? And so I'm wondering within the Book of Judges, 396 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 1: do you see that dynamic yet or is the Book 397 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: of Judges a little bit more like maybe like what 398 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: we've seen in Fir Samuel, where David throughout the book 399 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: generally stays away from harming Israel as close as it 400 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: gets as J'ariah the Hittite, who arguably is more of 401 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: a true Israelite than David is in that instance, but 402 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: he's still you know, it's emphasized as a Hittite. So 403 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: I'm wondering how that plays itself out in the Book 404 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: of Judges. 405 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Judges is unique because not entirely unique, because 406 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: there's continuity, But Judges is about the failure of Israel 407 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: to prioritize Yahweh and their worship and then eradicate the 408 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: false worship and through warfare. So I think what happens 409 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: is in that promised land, Canaanite worship is not allowed, 410 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: and so we only really see Rayhab who converts in 411 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 2: that time period of the conquest and settlement. But it 412 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 2: does show the heart that if you convert, you're fine. 413 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 2: But to apply it to Israel going like other nations, 414 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: if you're in the in the Israelite land and you're 415 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 2: worshiping other gods, then you have put yourself under God's 416 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 2: wrath and so you should be eradicated. So when you're 417 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 2: looking at Canaanites, at least from a Juterimistic rating applying 418 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 2: Deuteronomy type thinking petitude to the text, then those people, 419 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 2: if they're not showing any desire towards conversion to Yahwehism, 420 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: then they they're up for for death penalty being in 421 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 2: God's sacred land, in sacred space. When you go outside 422 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 2: of the land, things are different. And I actually think 423 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 2: in the Gideon story it's not entirely clear, but I 424 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,880 Speaker 2: it seems questionable or at least ambiguous. When Gideon goes 425 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 2: really far outside of the promised Land to go and 426 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 2: defeat the Midianites. At that point, they're fleeing. They're not Canaanite, 427 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: they're not a threat. So to me, it seems like 428 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: and God's not speaking at that point either. In the text, 429 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: it seems like he's gone too far beyond because they're 430 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: not a threat anymore. Yeah, So I don't think he 431 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: needed to go that far. I could be wrong. There's 432 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 2: not much in the text that would suggest what he 433 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 2: did was right other than he had success. It could 434 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 2: it could be that he was right. It doesn't really 435 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 2: seem very right. It was little ambiguous, Yeah, ambiguous, and 436 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: I lean towards it doesn't fit well with the the 437 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 2: laws on warfare. 438 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: So if we were to just to give people handles, 439 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: and I don't think these are you know, the most 440 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: accurate categories. Maybe, But what we're looking at really is 441 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: if Joshua is the conquest, Judges is more like dealing 442 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: with the settlement or the tail end of the conquest somehow, 443 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: like how we describe that. 444 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, So in the Book of Joshua, you have like 445 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 2: several areas that are kind of getting conquered or taken over, 446 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 2: but there's still a lot that needs to be defeated, 447 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 2: and so the Israelites are needing to extend into other 448 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: areas in their warfare. But it's mostly them starting to settle. 449 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 2: But the text does say like there's going to be 450 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 2: warfare in there because Joshua ended there's still much land, 451 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: and Judges says, you know, go out and extend the land. 452 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 2: And a huge motivation is about worship. I actually think 453 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,959 Speaker 2: the book's more about worship than warfare. I think warfare 454 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: is a manifestation of prepper worship in that context. 455 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: And so my aity, No, I mean, I mean, I 456 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: get where you're coming from with that. So maybe that 457 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: is this what you mean by that? Maybe I should 458 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: just I'll ask the question. So, because you're in the 459 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: land and this is supposed to be sacred to the Lord, 460 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: devoted to the Lord, the warfare is a mechanism by 461 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: which we get false worship out of the land so 462 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: that we can engage in true worship of the Lord. Now, 463 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: even though that never exactly works itself out, especially that 464 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: latter part. What we see in the warfare is this 465 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: attack on idolatry, and in some interesting way, I mean, 466 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: how does that play out in those back portions of Gideon, 467 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: where is he not addressing some of the idolatrous practice 468 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: of the Israelites in that moment and then just taking 469 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: it too far. So in other words, it's like he's 470 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: he's choosing to engage in something that is not worshipful, 471 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: using warfare in a way that is not worshipful, in 472 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: attacking his fellow Israelites. Kind of how you'd explain it. 473 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's just they hadn't They just weren't on his 474 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 2: side one hundred percent. They weren't helping him. And so 475 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 2: it's very interesting at the being in the book, after 476 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: the long list of hey you in chapter one, there's 477 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 2: a long list of of of like battle Area's conquest 478 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: and not and and the Angel of the Angel of 479 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: the Lord, the Messenger of the Lord, let's say, says 480 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 2: you have not obeyed my voice. And it's related to worship. 481 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 2: You've not kept you know. It's it's like you haven't 482 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 2: done these these worship things. And so the Israelites there, 483 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: their crime is they didn't align with with Gideon to 484 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 2: give him provisions. He didn't say anything about worshiping the Lord. 485 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: And then Gideon, like in that section at the beginning 486 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 2: of judges. It's like you're supposed to tear down the 487 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 2: cultic the sacred site. That's it. Yes, And what does 488 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 2: Gideon do? He are rats a something that's to the Lord, 489 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: but not the way the Lord would want it. Just 490 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 2: like Gideon worshiped the Lord in a desecrated manner, which 491 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 2: Deuteronomy says is like the Canaanites. So him Gideon making 492 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:27,520 Speaker 2: this this cultic Ephai, which is some sort of auricular 493 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: like an oracle thing, which is you get your oracles 494 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 2: from a prophet, you get it from the Orient and 495 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: thumime that's in Samuel a good bit. 496 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 1: That's it. 497 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 2: Those are your options from the Lord. And he's doing 498 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 2: it like kind of his own way. And and so 499 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: again it's he didn't do warfare with the Israelites like 500 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: God's said. God says, when you hurt a city, tear 501 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 2: it down or destroy it, it's because they're acting in 502 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: false worship. And that's not what. 503 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: Happened in this case. They're just not aligning with him. 504 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: It's an act of I need to be in control 505 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: of this whole thing, and if you're not with me 506 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 1: or against me, as opposed to reading that through more 507 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: covenantal framework and saying, no, if you're engaged in right worship, 508 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: maybe some of the things I'm doing are apparent. 509 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 2: Right, and who knows what their worship was, guessing it 510 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 2: wasn't the greatest, but we don't know, right, Yeah. 511 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes more sense. I get Yeah. I 512 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: like that a lot. I think that framing actually works 513 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: really really well. So let me ask one sort of 514 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 1: last question. So most of my work has been really 515 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: more on the first Samuel side, and so you have 516 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: sort of Samuel as sort of quasi the last judge 517 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: I suppose of Israel, Right, But you have this dynamic 518 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: where even before you know, you have Eli, and Eli's 519 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: sons take kind of taking over, and then you have 520 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: Samuel replace them. And then when the Israelites finally reached 521 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: their breaking point, it's because Samuel's sons are doing these 522 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: horrible things in Israel. And so the only judge that 523 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: I can remember in Judges having a son take over 524 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: is Gideon. Correct. Right, It's not like a generational succession thing. 525 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: It's a God raises up the judge, and there isn't 526 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: a genealogical linkage necessarily between who is before and who's next. 527 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: How does that, for one, how does that little snippet 528 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: of Gideon's sun taking over for him change things? And 529 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 1: do you see any connection between that and Jeff the 530 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: sacrificing his only shot at an air that could take 531 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: over for him. 532 00:34:54,040 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, actually I I the connection between the sons and daughter. 533 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 2: I would just say, is you start getting a theme 534 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: with Gideon of progeny dying out. So you've got like 535 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 2: all his sons but one. Basically it's like his whole 536 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: line is wiped out because this one acted unlawfully and 537 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 2: and killed seventy brothers. Bien alike actually acts instead of 538 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: like a judge, he's actually a shawl, which is a ruler. 539 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 2: He's actually given the title that's like kind of a king. 540 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: And then he also is more of an oppressor than 541 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 2: a deliverer in the story. If fits that role. So 542 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 2: you see the children dying off, you end up. I 543 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 2: think so at the end of Judges, some people say 544 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 2: there's no king in Israel refers to there's no king, 545 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 2: but even yahweh it's a popular evangelic with you, but 546 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 2: I think it also is there's no physical Yeah, I 547 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 2: think the plane reading there is an accurate reading and 548 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:14,839 Speaker 2: so I think it's showing the chaos. There's no gymnastics succession, right, 549 00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 2: and the person writing is whenever they're writing, they've seen 550 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 2: good and bad kings. There's only eight good kings in 551 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 2: Israel's history. So even write all problems with monarchy, it 552 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 2: still is a better option than like the wild wild West, 553 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 2: so to speak. There's no success there. These people aren't 554 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 2: really functioning well. They're not making Yahweh center or or 555 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,400 Speaker 2: caring about the things of God and loving their neighbors 556 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 2: very well. 557 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean that first Emuel twelve where 558 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: Samuel goes back and eventually tells Israelize that they're going 559 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 1: to get a king. What I've always found fascinating is 560 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: he basically says, yeah, you can have your king, but 561 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: the problem remains the problem you've always had, Like you know, 562 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: because he says, if you will fear the Lord and 563 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: keep his commandments, all will go well with you. But 564 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: now your king also has to do that too, And 565 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: so you're not changing the game here, you're just rearranging 566 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: the pieces on the board. Putting someone in this role 567 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: doesn't solve the problem. Like you all have the same 568 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: obligations and responsibilities you always had. Now you just have 569 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: a king over you, right, And so I think you're right. 570 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that they're struggling with this idea 571 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: of they're just the chaos reigns, and some of that 572 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: has to do with there's no king over Israel. And 573 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: maybe at the end of Judges, like the way I 574 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: would tend to read that last line isn't not even 575 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,279 Speaker 1: the Lord is the king. What I was sort of 576 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: always thought was it was gesturing toward more of a 577 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: messianic push, right, that that you know, you have this 578 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: projection toward like there is a ruler who can fix 579 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: so much of this. It's not about shifting from a 580 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: no kingship to kingship, and we think the shifting governance 581 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: is going to help us, But it's more like there's 582 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,759 Speaker 1: a projection toward that Messianic king. I don't know how 583 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: you feel with that, but you know. 584 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 2: I think if you have that chrystological push, there's there's 585 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 2: also there's no deliverer like the Lord Jesus Christ, right, 586 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,800 Speaker 2: And we see all these human deliverers are just, but 587 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 2: even the best of them, Ye, are our flawed in 588 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 2: some way or or need assistance? From from a helper. 589 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: You know, it's Deborah and Baroque that deliver. And so 590 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 2: I think when we read, you know, always looking to 591 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 2: the fact that we have this divine human, the Lord 592 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, that's that's going to That is the solution 593 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 2: I think is a solid red. 594 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, because even if you wanted to go to like 595 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: a David or a Solomon, sort of have to admit 596 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: that as faithful as they were, they got their problems. 597 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:08,399 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, Solomon basically did everything that Samuel said 598 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: a king would do, and he wasn't saying that in 599 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: glowing terms, and so you kind of sit back and 600 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, that's uh, that's what it was. Right, Well, 601 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: this has been really good. We're kind of coming close 602 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: to the end of time here. You've done a lot 603 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: of work in the Book of Judges. What do you think, 604 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: just you know, for everyday Christian approaching the Book of Judges, 605 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 1: any advice on how to approach it or what message 606 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,840 Speaker 1: to really look for if they read it, you know, 607 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,879 Speaker 1: what's a what's a recurring theme that would help them 608 00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,280 Speaker 1: get their hands around this book? 609 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, all have sinna come short of the story of God. 610 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,280 Speaker 3: So I think if you read it looking so the 611 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 3: author and then and the way he narrates, he doesn't say, oh, 612 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 3: by the way, this is wrong. 613 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 2: So the book is written really interestingly, it's written if 614 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,480 Speaker 2: if you know the law, you'll be able to interpret 615 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 2: it well because you'll see the incongrities. So it's almost 616 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 2: like he who has ears to hear, let him hear 617 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 2: the trouble with us as New Testament more oriented for Christians, 618 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,640 Speaker 2: we don't know those laws too well. So just don't 619 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: take it as oh, this happened. The narrator didn't say 620 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 2: anything bad about it, therefore it's fine or good. So 621 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: kind of just look at it as it's going progressively 622 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 2: down deborn Barack shining moment. Other than that, not so much. 623 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: Yeah. 624 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 2: So, and it's God's saying, this is what happens when 625 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 2: people don't follow me. They're gonna fill in their worship 626 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: their warfare. You're gonna have waning leadership. It's just a disaster. 627 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. And in the treatment of it's a picture. 628 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 2: Worship, WoT worship, women, waning leadership. 629 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,919 Speaker 1: Waning leadership. There you go, it's four ws. I like it, Yeah, 630 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a picture of what happens when 631 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,880 Speaker 1: we try to run things ourselves. It's like, that's helpful. 632 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: I like that women warfare, worship, and waning leadership, waning leadership. 633 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: I think I got all four. That's great. 634 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 2: Well, Jillian, thanks joing to be here. 635 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been awesome and this has been a great conversation. 636 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: I really appreciate being on the show today. 637 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for having me. 638 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: All Right, everybody, we'll call it quits there and we'll 639 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian Take 640 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: care of Everybody. I just want to take a second 641 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership 642 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go 643 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,400 Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith 644 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 1: centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, 645 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.