1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Welcome to the Out of Zion podcast. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: I'm Shelley Nice filling in for doctor Susan Michael, and 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 2: I have with us today a special guest, doctor Dexter 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 2: van Zild. He is a research fellow at the Middle 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: East Forum. 6 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 3: Hi. Unfortunately I'm not a doctor. I just got a 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: master's degree. But that's close enough. We can say that 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 3: I'm a doctor of Western civilization, all right, as opposed 9 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 3: to being a doctor of the Church. 10 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 4: Where all right? 11 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: Am I allowed to give you an honorary doctorate? 12 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: Well? 13 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 3: Hey, you know, my great grandfather got one from Trinity 14 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 3: in Connecticut. So and I've been waiting for my alma 15 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 3: mad or to give me an honorary doctorate. 16 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 4: Okay, and I don't think it's coming here. 17 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 2: Actually, in my opinion, you have your doctorate in Western Islamism, 18 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: all right? Right, So for our audience, will you explain 19 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: what is Western. 20 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 5: Islamas let's take a break and hear a message from 21 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 5: one of our sponsors. Welcome to the Israel Answer Series, 22 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 5: Connecting Israel the Bible, and you join Susan Michael as 23 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 5: she explores timely issues and current events from a scriptural 24 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 5: perspective to equip the Christian world with a balance and 25 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 5: biblical response. Be sure to subscribe for future episodes which 26 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 5: will ignite your faith and bring the Bible to life 27 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 5: in your everyday world. Now, let's join Susan with your 28 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 5: israel answers. 29 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: You have your doctorate in Western Islamism, all right, right, 30 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: so for our audience, will you explain what is Western 31 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: Islam's how is that different than just Islam? 32 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: Explain? 33 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 4: Explain. There're gonna be people who disagree with it. 34 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 3: Us and the Middle East form is basically asserted since 35 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 3: its founding as a result of the you know, the 36 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 3: you know, the writings of Daniel Pipes. Our founder is 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 3: that radical Islam is a problem. Moderate Islam is a solution, 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 3: and he's defined. Islamism is essentially an ideology that erupted 39 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 3: out of the early twentieth century, largely in response to 40 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 3: the collapse of the caliphate and the humiliation that Muslims endured. 41 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 4: As a result of the rise of the West. 42 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 3: And essentially what people have tried to do is turn 43 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: to create, promote, and the way I put it is 44 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 3: is that they promote an ideology of Muslim male supremacism 45 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 3: in the modern era, that is completely contrary to the 46 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 3: way people are expecting to be able to live in 47 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 3: the twenty first century. And essentially what that means is that, 48 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 3: you know that essentially the medieval rules that were associated 49 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 3: with Sharia people are now trying to apply into the 50 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 3: in the twenty first century, and it's not going to fly. 51 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 3: And it's going to create a tremendous amount of controversy 52 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 3: and conflict and unfortunately probably some violence uh in the 53 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 3: years ahead, as people basically try to impose this ideology uh, 54 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: even on Western democracies. UH and and and and we 55 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: see that it's advanced quite substantially in places in Europe 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 3: in large one of the things that you can see 57 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 3: Ianne Hersili wrote about this is that women are no 58 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 3: longer safe in public areas in Europe, when in fact, they, 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 3: you know, if it's just a few decades ago, enjoyed 60 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: a lot of rights and protections, and now you know, 61 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 3: we we we see instances in which women are very 62 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 3: badly treated, largely motivated by, you know, abused by men 63 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 3: from Muslim majority environments that think that it's okay to 64 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 3: try to treat women badly and also do the same 65 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: thing to Jews. Uh, and there are Islamist d moms 66 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: that are encouraging them to do these things. That's really 67 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 3: that's what we're dealing with, an ideology of Muslim males, 68 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: premacism that people have been using historical Islamic scriptures and 69 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: traditions and sources to justify even as there's a growing 70 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 3: number of people like Mustafa Akiol who are trying to 71 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 3: basically update how the faith is practiced in the twenty 72 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 3: first century. 73 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: Are you of the opinion? 74 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 2: So there's there's a lot of people that just feel 75 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: like radical Islam has already taken over Europe, that Europe 76 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 2: has already lost, but it's not too late for America. 77 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: Do you think that that's true? Is it too late 78 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: for Europe? 79 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:36,840 Speaker 4: I don't know. 80 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: I'm not going to pretend that things are good in 81 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: places like England, France and Belgium. And I think the 82 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 3: real question at this point is is that and this 83 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 3: is a question that we're going to have to ask, 84 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 3: is what type of countries do Muslims who want to 85 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 3: live in when they come to the West if they 86 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 3: want to essentially replicate the this the circumstances that they 87 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: fled from in the Middle East, UH and in South Asia, well, 88 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 3: then we're going to have a real fight on our hands. 89 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 3: I think we're starting to see in places like UH, 90 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 3: particularly in England, we're starting to see essentially a put 91 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: a serious pushback on the part of the populace there 92 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,679 Speaker 3: UH in large parts driven by the rape gang crisis. 93 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 3: And I don't like using the word I'd rather use 94 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 3: the word grooming gang. 95 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, the grooming gang moniker is not accurate. 96 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 3: These were rape gangs. These were men for rural Pakistan 97 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 3: that essentially regarded British women as easy meat because that 98 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 3: was the language. 99 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 4: And so and. 100 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: I think that that controversy, I think is going to 101 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: cause an awful lot of people to wake up. 102 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of Christians that are well and 103 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 2: just Westerners in general, that are fearful of criticizing Islam 104 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: at all, criticizing the spread of his life, it all 105 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,360 Speaker 2: in America because they're worried about being called Islamophobic. They're 106 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: worried about those labels. So how can Christians apply criticism 107 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: when necessary? 108 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 3: But to make that distinction, I think one of the 109 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 3: things that we have to understand is this that Christianity 110 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: was subjected to ferocious criticism in the years after the Holocaust, 111 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: between nineteen fourteen and nineteen forty five, essentially Western civilization 112 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 3: went through tremendous trauma and it culminated in the Holocaust, 113 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: and people said, look, we're going to have to rework 114 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: how we practice our faith. Okay, the World Evangelical Alliance 115 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: they issued a statement condemning anti Semitism. If the Catholic 116 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 3: Church issued the Second Vatic ghostra Atat during the Second 117 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: Vatican Council. Essentially Christians said, look, we have to really 118 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 3: update and change how our faith is practiced. And that's 119 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 3: one of the reasons why the ICEJ is around because 120 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 3: ultimately they they they don't want their faith to be 121 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 3: used as a tool to uh as to justify oppression 122 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 3: of of of. 123 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 4: The Jewish people. The question facing Muslims is whether or 124 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 4: not they want their faith, which propounds the existence of 125 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 4: a compassionate, loving, and merciful God, to be used as 126 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 4: a tool of oppression to justify the oppression of non 127 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 4: Muslims and put Muslims in a position of dominance and 128 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 4: and supremacy over non Muslims wherever they happen to be. 129 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 3: And I think that's the dichotomy. I think that's really 130 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 3: the issue. Once you say, look, you tell us that 131 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 3: you worship a compassionate, loving and merciful God, and yet 132 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 3: we see these terrible acts of violence perpetrated in the 133 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: name of your faith that we we don't accept that 134 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 3: there's a there's a there's a contradiction here, and what 135 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: are you going to do about it? Doing that does 136 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 3: not render you in Islamophobe. Okay, more, it doesn't render 137 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 3: you in Islamophobe any more than condemning Christian anti Semitism 138 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: makes you an anti Christian bigot. 139 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 4: It just doesn't. And I think. 140 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: Islamic leaders, Islamic religious and political leaders are going to 141 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 3: have to get used to the idea that their faith 142 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: is going to be interrogated with the same ferocity that 143 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 3: Christianity has been interrogated since the eighteen hundreds. You know, 144 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 3: the Christians went through the higher criticism, okay, and I'm 145 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: not sure that I like everything that came out of 146 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 3: a higher criticism, but you know, the interrogation is coming, 147 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 3: the change is coming, and I think that we should 148 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 3: be optimistic that there are going to be people within 149 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 3: the Muslim world that are going to say it's time 150 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 3: for a change, and we're the people who are going 151 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 3: to have to take take the lead. The role of 152 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 3: that non Muslims can play is that we can basically 153 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 3: speak ironically and yet at the same time forcefully about 154 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 3: the threat of Islamism. 155 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: So Dexter. So many of us know you as the 156 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: media analyst. 157 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 2: For probably fifteen years, and now you're in the second 158 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: career as a research fellow in something similar but different. 159 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: So how do these two indrists overlap? 160 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: How do you see the media representing what's happening in 161 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: the Middle East, wars in the Middle East, what's happening 162 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 2: in Syria and Iran? Like is the media scared to 163 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: approach this when they seem so comfortable with criticizing Israel. 164 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: Well, you see, one of the reasons why people love 165 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: to criticize israel Is is that if you offend the 166 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 3: Jewish community, you get a letter from the ado okay, 167 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: and you get letters from people like. 168 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 4: Me saying, oh you got it wrong. 169 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: If you offend Islamus or Jihadis, you might get death 170 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 3: threats and they may actually drive you underground and forced 171 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 3: you to hire security the way that they did with 172 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: Salmon Rushed it Okay, and so I think that's really 173 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 3: one of the things is that intimidation works, and it 174 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 3: affects how the media coverage, media covers issues related to 175 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 3: how Islamism affects the world and that and that's and 176 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 3: it's frankly a cowardice. 177 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 4: And also they know their markets. Journalists know that an 178 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 4: awful lot of people want a narrative that they could 179 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 4: use to basically say. 180 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: I'm on the right side of history, okay. And the 181 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: thing is is that a lot of people embraced an 182 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 3: anti Zionist, anti Israel narrative, and so they would promote 183 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 3: a narrative in which Israel was guilty of genocide, which 184 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 3: is a fundamental, outrageous lie. But then when it comes 185 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: time to talk about the Iranian regime's murder of thousands 186 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 3: of people in the streets of Tehran and all the 187 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: major cities, well, if they were to tell that story, 188 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:03,439 Speaker 3: a lot of. 189 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 4: People would have to wonder, Look, you know, we. 190 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: Were outraged when Israel defeated Hesbelah with the pages and 191 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: Hesbelah was a proxy for Iran, which is now murdering 192 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 3: its citizens. And if I pay too much attention to 193 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 3: that narrative, I'm not going to be able to think 194 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 3: of myself as being on the right side of history. 195 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: And the thing is, as a journalist being and I 196 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 3: worked as a journalist. Journalists being who they are, they 197 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 3: know their market and they know the story that their 198 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 3: market wants to hear, and so they might actually soften 199 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: or kind of downplay the outrageous things that the Iranian 200 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 3: regime does because they don't want to alienate their mark. 201 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: The that's I think one of the factors. And the 202 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: thing is is that the story about what's going on 203 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: and Iran is so complex because like before, all of 204 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: the air regimes regarded Iran as a dangerous rival. Okay, 205 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 3: now all of a sudden, even right now, it's not 206 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 3: so clear, like they're not the threat that they used 207 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 3: to be. With the destruction of hezwellah Hamas has taken 208 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 3: a beating, even though it hasn't been wiped out completely, 209 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: and so the other Arab regimes like saying, look, we 210 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 3: don't need Israel in the United States to keep Iran 211 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 3: on the back foot anymore, so we can go back 212 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: to demonizing Israel. And I think that in the Middle 213 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,119 Speaker 3: East form on just a few days ago, on February thirteenth, 214 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:35,119 Speaker 3: we did a roundtable discussion about Saudi Arabia pivoting against 215 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: Israel in the United States. Saudi Arabia was definitely afraid 216 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 3: or worried about Iran getting the bomb. Now it doesn't 217 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: look like Iran's going to get the bomb, so it's like, Okay, 218 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,439 Speaker 3: we can now go back to beating up on Israel 219 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 3: because that's what we do. And our efforts to modernize are. 220 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 4: Not going as well. 221 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 3: We're still dependent on oil and and so. 222 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 4: And the thing. 223 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 3: One of the things that I want to say, and 224 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 3: I think the Christians should understand, is that the Israeli 225 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 3: Jews who were killed on October seventh, they were martyrs 226 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: to the cause of Arab modernity because the United Arab 227 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 3: Emirates said, look, we're tired of this. We're gonna come 228 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 3: up with the Abraham Accords and Iran and Hamas said. 229 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 4: Look, we can't let that happen. 230 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: We can't let the region be achieve peace with Israel, 231 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: because that's gonna leave us behind, because we cannot adapt 232 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: to the modern world. The UAE wants to go into 233 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 3: the future. They want a new world for themselves. Look, 234 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 3: they worked with Israel to send us like a probe 235 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 3: to Mars. Okay, that's modernity. They've abandoned hostility towards Israel 236 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 3: as a unifying political agenda. But the thing is is 237 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 3: that the other countries they can't live up to that 238 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 3: challenge in large part because that's going to require allowing 239 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 3: their people agency. That's going to require allowing their people 240 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 3: and educating their people. 241 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 4: And bringing them into the modern world. 242 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 3: And that's going to require them to take on the 243 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: Islamists in their countries as well, and that's not something 244 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 3: they want to do. So they're going to go back 245 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 3: to the old order of things, which is beating up 246 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 3: on Israel, which is why the ICJ is so important. 247 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 5: Let's take a break and hear a message from one 248 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 5: of our sponsors. Welcome back to the outo Zion podcast 249 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 5: with Susan Michael. 250 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: It is amazing. 251 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 2: I just I find it so fascinating that with during 252 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: the Gaza War, the media was more than happy to 253 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: report the death numbers that Hamas was feeding it, and 254 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: now what's happening in Iran, the media is saying they 255 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: can't report on it because they can't verify the numbers 256 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: of dead, and so just even the hypocrisy that's embedded 257 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 2: within those two discrepancies is super shocked right to me. 258 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 3: Right, and a lot of it has to do with 259 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 3: the notion that Israel is a Setla colonialist nation. One 260 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 3: of the things that I saw early on in my career, 261 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: and it took me a while to figure it out, 262 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: was is that the same methods that were used to 263 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 3: demonize Israel are now being a have been applied to 264 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 3: the West and for a long time, okay, And they 265 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 3: were deployed to delegitimize the United States. In the United 266 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: States and Western democracies in general. We're all Setla colonialists, 267 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 3: We're all evil. And the thing was is that the 268 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 3: people in the Middle East were victims of that. Now, 269 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: if you want to talk to me about a Setlar 270 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 3: colonialist ideology, Islamism is it. Okay, take a look at Islamism. 271 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: But they don't want to talk about that, largely because 272 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 3: they have viewed those folks as members of the oppressed 273 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 3: third world and they were the people that they could 274 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: stand up for. And now to suggest that, well, look, 275 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 3: you had it wrong all along, that's a difficult thing 276 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 3: for them to have to accept. And so that's why 277 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 3: the gods a genocide narrative. It was like a shot 278 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: of I mean forgive me, but it's like heroin for 279 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: these folks, I. 280 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 4: Mean forgive me. 281 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 3: I don't I know that's it was like that was 282 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 3: exactly the shot in the arm that they needed to 283 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 3: basically basically get the high that they were looking for. 284 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 4: We're on the right side of history, Israel as evil 285 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 4: and by the way, you know they were No, they're 286 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 4: not the victims. 287 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: Of a genocide, but they're the perpetrators of a genocide. 288 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 3: That the high that that gives to somebody is just 289 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 3: you know, I suspect that would be phenomenal for though, 290 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 3: And that's why we saw college campuses being upended. You know, 291 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 3: the people who were funding students justice in Palestine, they 292 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: knew exactly what they were doing. They were like, we're 293 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: going to take these young kids who were addicted to 294 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: notions of moral and ethical superiority, give them the stuff 295 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 3: that they need. They were like drug dealers in many respects. 296 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 3: And the thing is is that if you don't have 297 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 3: a Christian faith to basically keep you away from that stuff, 298 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 3: if you don't have a worldview that says, look, you've 299 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 3: got to look at the world for what it is. 300 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 4: You're vulnerable to it, absolutely. 301 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Dexter, so you don't have the normal profile 302 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 2: maybe of most pro israel Evangelical Christians. You have a 303 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: Catholic or you're Catholic. All right, so tell us your story. 304 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: All right, this is the way it was, and a 305 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 3: lot of it. Once I was doing I did this work, 306 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 3: and I started doing this work, and one of the 307 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 3: things that I would tell evangelical audiences is, Okay, I'm 308 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 3: a former liberal Protestant who converted to Catholicism. 309 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 4: Who works for a Jewish organization. 310 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 3: It speaks to evangelical audiences about the mistreatment of Christians, 311 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 3: Orthodox and Catholic Christians in Muslim majority countries, and it 312 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 3: would make my head spin. And I was speaking at 313 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 3: one evangelical school and I said, you know, I know 314 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 3: that there's a theological difference between the Orthodox and Catholic 315 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 3: Christians were suffering in the Middle East and the evangelicals 316 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 3: that are advocating for him. 317 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 4: There's huge ethological divides. 318 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 3: And she said to me, and I can't remember her name, 319 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 3: she said, tell them that they're dying for the name 320 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 3: of Christ. And the thing is is that one of 321 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 3: the things that I have discovered is is that for me, 322 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 3: this is going to sound as a liberal, former liberal Protestant, 323 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 3: I'm going to tell you that the evangelicals in the 324 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,159 Speaker 3: United States are the greatest defenders of modern West and 325 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 3: civilization than largely any other community I've met. Okay, And 326 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 3: to equate or connect evangelicalism with modernity, for a lot 327 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 3: of people say, oh, that's not true, But in fact 328 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 3: it's true because who are the people that helped bring 329 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 3: about the Abraham Accords but American evangelicals and the Abraham Accords, 330 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 3: as I've said before, you know, they were a step into. 331 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 4: Modernity for people in the Middle East. And the thing 332 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 4: is is that. 333 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 3: Because everybody is still watching, you know, Inherit the Wind, 334 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 3: they think that all evangelicals are basically anti modernist, anti intellectuals. 335 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 3: They're so used to thinking that they don't understand that 336 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: when they support Israel and when they support the Abraham Accords, 337 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 3: they're not only acting out their Biblical commitments, but they're 338 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: also essentially becoming a great force for modernity. And that's 339 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 3: really and and the thing is is that you know, 340 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 3: as a Roman Catholic, you know, and I don't want 341 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 3: to get into the whole theological differences from it. But 342 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 3: and I you know, when I talk to people in 343 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 3: the Catholic Church, a lot of them understand that their 344 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 3: allies are essentially in the evangelical community. It may have 345 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: some theological differences, And the question at this point is 346 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 3: is that, you know, can we work? You know, there 347 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 3: was a book written many years ago called Protestant Catholic 348 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 3: Jew Okay And now the question is can American society? 349 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 3: And that detailed the consensus about how how American society 350 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,680 Speaker 3: was going to address its its challenges post World War two, 351 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: or even right before World War Two. Now the question 352 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 3: is going to be Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, maybe atheists. 353 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 3: And the thing is is is that the evangelicals that 354 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 3: I've worked with and talked with, they are capable, I think, 355 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 3: of dealing with that. They are capable of helping to 356 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: bring that about. Charlie Kirk, he talked to people in 357 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 3: a manner that was very open. He was not hostile. 358 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 3: He was not a caricature of inherit the wind. He 359 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 3: was not an elmer gantryf He was not. He was 360 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: and I think that was one of the reasons why 361 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 3: they attacked him so aggressively was because they could not 362 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 3: tolerate the notion that evangelicalism could adapt to modernity and 363 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 3: was actually a force for good in the modern world. 364 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 4: They couldn't accept that. 365 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: Well dexert from this evangelical to my Catholic ally friends. 366 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for that, and please just continue 367 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 2: to keep writing and researching all sharing. 368 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 4: I know I will thank you so much. 369 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 6: Thank you for being on out of all Right, hey, 370 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 6: just give me one more minute. I want to offer 371 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 6: you one of our free resources. We have wonderful resources 372 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 6: in our show notes and if you go to our 373 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 6: website at ic EJUSA dot org slash show notes, you'll 374 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 6: find links for a number of our free offers. We 375 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 6: have downloadables to help root you in scripture, help you 376 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 6: to understand the issues surrounding Israel and the importance of 377 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 6: be of Christian support for Israel, and don't forget. 378 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: Please follow us. 379 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,200 Speaker 6: On Facebook, YouTube, and LinkedIn and stay connected. 380 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 1: Thank you and God bless we. 381 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 5: Hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of Zion 382 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 5: with Susan Michael. Be sure to subscribe to Out of 383 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:57,360 Speaker 5: Zion now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, pray dot com, 384 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 5: Salem One Place, Salem Like Audio Out of Zion with 385 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 5: Susan Michael is a production of ic EJUSA. All rights reserved. 386 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 5: This podcast is presented in partnership with Life Audio to 387 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 5: explore a wide range of faith centered podcasts on prayer, 388 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 5: Bible study, parenting, and more. Visit lifeaudio dot com.