1
00:00:02,700 --> 00:00:03,680
Speaker 1: Life Audio.

2
00:00:05,660 --> 00:00:08,240
Speaker 2: You could sit across the table right now from Tyler Robinson.

3
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,590
Speaker 2: What is the one thing you would tell him?

4
00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:12,600
Speaker 3: I would tell him the gospel because I want him

5
00:00:12,619 --> 00:00:15,220
Speaker 3: to be saved just like everybody else. That you can

6
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 3: be forgiven for all the evil you've done. Not just

7
00:00:17,980 --> 00:00:21,020
Speaker 3: shooting Charlie Kirk, but I hope he repents. I hope

8
00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 3: he's saved. And then I hope he's executed because that's

9
00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:28,240
Speaker 3: what he deserves. And ironically, the death penalty in Utah

10
00:00:28,340 --> 00:00:29,080
Speaker 3: is firing squad.

11
00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:29,460
Speaker 4: Wow.

12
00:00:29,870 --> 00:00:31,970
Speaker 3: I was doing nothing with my life. When Charlie Kirk

13
00:00:31,990 --> 00:00:33,730
Speaker 3: was murdered, I said, I need to get in the game.

14
00:00:33,909 --> 00:00:36,030
Speaker 3: I need to do something. Whatever my gift is, I

15
00:00:36,050 --> 00:00:37,890
Speaker 3: got to find it and use it for the Lord.

16
00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:42,620
Speaker 4: We've seen apologists. We've seen musicians. We've seen pastors fail

17
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:46,560
Speaker 4: morally or theologically fade away. Why do you think that happens?

18
00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:48,660
Speaker 1: That's easy. Sex, money, or power.

19
00:00:48,820 --> 00:00:51,080
Speaker 3: But I will also say this, that for every one

20
00:00:51,140 --> 00:00:55,200
Speaker 3: pastor that falls, there's a thousand of them that don't. Amen.

21
00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,700
Speaker 2: What are some of the biggest questions that you're expecting

22
00:00:57,740 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 2: to face that have maybe shifted in the last couple years?

23
00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:04,250
Speaker 3: The top three objections to Christianity today are morality, morality,

24
00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,550
Speaker 3: and morality. You're always going to get questions on LGBTQ issues.

25
00:01:08,850 --> 00:01:10,930
Speaker 1: We as Christians have to be aware of this.

26
00:01:11,010 --> 00:01:13,449
Speaker 3: If we're going to reach this generation, we have to

27
00:01:13,490 --> 00:01:16,060
Speaker 3: see what the spirit of the age is. That's part

28
00:01:16,090 --> 00:01:18,880
Speaker 3: of the problem. He used to say, when the dialogue ends,

29
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:19,979
Speaker 3: the violence begins.

30
00:01:20,980 --> 00:01:23,220
Speaker 4: Frank Turek, you and I have been friends about 20

31
00:01:23,220 --> 00:01:27,300
Speaker 4: or 25 years, one of the most well-known apologists today,

32
00:01:27,940 --> 00:01:31,770
Speaker 4: but a lot of people don't know your backstory. And

33
00:01:31,810 --> 00:01:33,289
Speaker 4: so you have a new book that just came out,

34
00:01:33,430 --> 00:01:35,750
Speaker 4: and it's kind of the war on reality. We're going

35
00:01:35,770 --> 00:01:37,770
Speaker 4: to talk about it. But I want to use this

36
00:01:37,810 --> 00:01:40,870
Speaker 4: opportunity with my son, one of the first people we've

37
00:01:40,930 --> 00:01:45,570
Speaker 4: interviewed together. We interviewed the Connectleys together. You are number two,

38
00:01:46,290 --> 00:01:49,140
Speaker 4: and not in that order of importance, just so you know, Frank,

39
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,440
Speaker 4: just in terms of the order that it happened. But

40
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,240
Speaker 4: I'm super interested to get into your story. So thanks

41
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:55,020
Speaker 4: for coming on with us.

42
00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:57,400
Speaker 1: Great being with both of you.

43
00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,650
Speaker 3: And we're going to see there's some generational connections here

44
00:02:01,710 --> 00:02:03,950
Speaker 3: when we get into this conversation. I mean, it's great

45
00:02:03,970 --> 00:02:06,210
Speaker 3: to see Scotty kind of following in your footsteps, Sean.

46
00:02:06,970 --> 00:02:10,669
Speaker 3: But I'm kind of following in the footsteps of your dad, actually,

47
00:02:10,690 --> 00:02:11,669
Speaker 3: and we'll get into that.

48
00:02:12,110 --> 00:02:12,770
Speaker 1: Okay, wow.

49
00:02:12,990 --> 00:02:15,270
Speaker 4: I'm eager to hear what you mean by that. But

50
00:02:15,290 --> 00:02:18,930
Speaker 4: let's go back to the Frank Turek. Before you were

51
00:02:18,950 --> 00:02:21,690
Speaker 4: a Christian growing up, your family, where'd you grow up?

52
00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 4: What was it like? What were you like? I could guess,

53
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,780
Speaker 4: but what were you like as a kid, man? I

54
00:02:26,820 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 4: grew up in New Jersey, and so I was Catholic

55
00:02:29,419 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 4: because it's the law. You're either Catholic, Jewish, or a

56
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:38,740
Speaker 4: skeptic if you're from New Jersey. Way back, I grew

57
00:02:38,780 --> 00:02:43,280
Speaker 4: up in the 60s and 70s, so I went to

58
00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,200
Speaker 4: Catholic high school, and I always believed in God. I

59
00:02:46,220 --> 00:02:48,260
Speaker 4: knew there had to be a first cause out there.

60
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,179
Speaker 4: I knew there had to be a creator, and I

61
00:02:50,220 --> 00:02:52,230
Speaker 4: was never a kid that got into much trouble. I

62
00:02:52,220 --> 00:02:55,130
Speaker 4: always felt like I should try and be as moral

63
00:02:55,190 --> 00:02:58,650
Speaker 4: as I could. I thought God was watching, but I

64
00:02:58,710 --> 00:03:00,250
Speaker 4: never really knew who Jesus was.

65
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:06,530
Speaker 3: And it wasn't until I got out of, actually through college,

66
00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:07,770
Speaker 3: and I went into the Navy.

67
00:03:07,810 --> 00:03:09,750
Speaker 1: I was a Naval ROTC student.

68
00:03:09,910 --> 00:03:12,109
Speaker 3: And so I went right in as a commissioned officer

69
00:03:12,169 --> 00:03:17,640
Speaker 3: and went to navigator school in Pensacola, Florida for aviation.

70
00:03:18,660 --> 00:03:20,339
Speaker 1: And I met the son of a Methodist minister.

71
00:03:21,500 --> 00:03:24,740
Speaker 3: And he had so many questions, or I had so

72
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:26,480
Speaker 3: many questions for him because I was always.

73
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:27,060
Speaker 1: Interested in God.

74
00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:30,980
Speaker 3: I just didn't know who Jesus was. I had so

75
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,200
Speaker 3: many questions for him, Sean, that he finally said, look,

76
00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 3: you just need to get Josh McDowell books.

77
00:03:39,900 --> 00:03:42,160
Speaker 1: Evidence demands a verdict in more than a carpenter.

78
00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,470
Speaker 3: And so those were the books that I first read

79
00:03:46,490 --> 00:03:51,030
Speaker 3: on Christian apologetics. And when I read them, I went, wow,

80
00:03:51,530 --> 00:03:55,310
Speaker 3: this really, it really looks like Christianity is true. And

81
00:03:55,390 --> 00:03:58,550
Speaker 3: so when I got out, Out of the Navy, I

82
00:03:58,570 --> 00:04:04,390
Speaker 3: was taken– this is like 1993. I was taken a

83
00:04:04,650 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 3: course in apologetics because I was interested in it at

84
00:04:08,460 --> 00:04:10,160
Speaker 3: McLean Bible Church in D.C.

85
00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:11,360
Speaker 1: That's where we were stationed.

86
00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:11,620
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

87
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,340
Speaker 3: I was an ROTC instructor at George Washington University, and

88
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,340
Speaker 3: I'd just gotten done with that. So I'm taking this class,

89
00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,350
Speaker 3: and the leader of the class was a guy by

90
00:04:22,370 --> 00:04:25,789
Speaker 3: the name of Barry Leventhal, who was– Went to Dallas

91
00:04:25,810 --> 00:04:30,450
Speaker 3: Theological Seminary, played for UCLA in the 1965 Rose Bowl.

92
00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:33,789
Speaker 1: Won the Rose Bowl there. He was a lineman.

93
00:04:34,510 --> 00:04:37,560
Speaker 3: And he came to faith through Hal Lindsey, late great

94
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,600
Speaker 3: planet Earth and all that. And he had Norman Geisler

95
00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,219
Speaker 3: as a professor when he was at Dallas Theological Seminary.

96
00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:49,740
Speaker 3: So he invited Norm up to teach kind of a

97
00:04:49,810 --> 00:04:51,950
Speaker 3: weekend portion of this class.

98
00:04:52,910 --> 00:04:53,460
Speaker 1: And so I.

99
00:04:54,290 --> 00:04:57,160
Speaker 3: I actually, I didn't know who Norm Geiser was, but

100
00:04:57,820 --> 00:05:00,840
Speaker 3: my wife and I invited him to stay at our

101
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,010
Speaker 3: home while he was teaching this weekend apologetics class. And

102
00:05:06,089 --> 00:05:07,790
Speaker 3: one thing led to another. He said, hey, I'm starting

103
00:05:07,810 --> 00:05:11,030
Speaker 3: a seminary in Charlotte. And if you're interested in apologetics,

104
00:05:11,510 --> 00:05:13,990
Speaker 3: you ought to come down and check it out. So

105
00:05:14,070 --> 00:05:17,350
Speaker 3: within six months of that, meeting, we had already moved

106
00:05:17,390 --> 00:05:18,450
Speaker 3: to Charlotte to go to seminary.

107
00:05:18,710 --> 00:05:20,150
Speaker 1: That was before there was an internet.

108
00:05:20,470 --> 00:05:21,670
Speaker 4: Remember? Of course, of course.

109
00:05:22,190 --> 00:05:24,430
Speaker 3: You actually had to go somewhere to go to school.

110
00:05:24,450 --> 00:05:26,950
Speaker 3: You just couldn't, you know, do it on a computer.

111
00:05:27,570 --> 00:05:29,820
Speaker 3: And so that's how I really got involved in apologetics.

112
00:05:29,860 --> 00:05:32,200
Speaker 3: It really started with your dad's work. And then I

113
00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,960
Speaker 3: met Norman Geisler and went to seminary here in Charlotte.

114
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,480
Speaker 3: Still a place, great place to go to seminary, ses.edu.

115
00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,810
Speaker 4: That great plug for SES on a Biola Talbot program, Frank.

116
00:05:42,830 --> 00:05:43,350
Speaker 1: That's right.

117
00:05:43,370 --> 00:05:45,789
Speaker 4: You wove it in naturally, man. I'll give you kudos

118
00:05:45,810 --> 00:05:46,310
Speaker 4: for that one.

119
00:05:46,850 --> 00:05:47,750
Speaker 1: Hey, I love it.

120
00:05:47,750 --> 00:05:49,760
Speaker 4: I asked you one question about your childhood, and you

121
00:05:49,779 --> 00:05:52,920
Speaker 4: bring it A, to apologetics, B, to Jesus. So you're

122
00:05:52,940 --> 00:05:56,080
Speaker 4: an evangelist and apologist at heart. Let me take a

123
00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,229
Speaker 4: couple steps back. Why did you start showing interest in Jesus?

124
00:06:00,870 --> 00:06:03,210
Speaker 4: Was there some shift or was it just kind of like,

125
00:06:03,230 --> 00:06:04,850
Speaker 4: you know what, next thing I want to study, ask

126
00:06:04,870 --> 00:06:07,390
Speaker 4: questions about, was there kind of an existential crisis of

127
00:06:07,450 --> 00:06:10,490
Speaker 4: any kind? What was it that just made you be like,

128
00:06:10,529 --> 00:06:11,770
Speaker 4: I want to know about Jesus also?

129
00:06:11,790 --> 00:06:13,870
Speaker 3: It wasn't any crisis. I just wanted to know if

130
00:06:13,910 --> 00:06:16,510
Speaker 3: Christianity was true. I mean, I've been taught about this

131
00:06:16,620 --> 00:06:23,099
Speaker 3: Jesus guy. I mean, in Catholic school, you know, you

132
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:27,060
Speaker 3: take certain classes. But for me, it was so much

133
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,969
Speaker 3: about tradition and so much about liturgy. And I know

134
00:06:31,010 --> 00:06:33,779
Speaker 3: that some people enjoy liturgy, but I grew up on it,

135
00:06:34,029 --> 00:06:36,500
Speaker 3: and it frustrated me because I never felt like I

136
00:06:36,510 --> 00:06:44,000
Speaker 3: was learning anything. Because the Mass, for me, was the

137
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:49,300
Speaker 3: same thing every week, except, you know, there was obviously

138
00:06:49,339 --> 00:06:51,560
Speaker 3: different readings, but no commentary on the readings.

139
00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,680
Speaker 1: And then a sermon, a homily, they call it, for

140
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:55,779
Speaker 1: like seven minutes.

141
00:06:57,290 --> 00:06:59,390
Speaker 3: And that was the only unique thing I thought about

142
00:06:59,670 --> 00:07:01,690
Speaker 3: in the church service. And I said, you know, I

143
00:07:01,730 --> 00:07:05,130
Speaker 3: really want to know if this is true. I mean,

144
00:07:06,870 --> 00:07:11,390
Speaker 3: should I be following this? Who is this Jesus? He's

145
00:07:11,410 --> 00:07:12,770
Speaker 3: hanging on a cross right there.

146
00:07:12,910 --> 00:07:13,290
Speaker 2: Why?

147
00:07:13,310 --> 00:07:18,630
Speaker 3: And I never, and look, I've had conversations with Catholic

148
00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,860
Speaker 3: apologists on this before, and I've asked them. I've said, look,

149
00:07:23,540 --> 00:07:27,430
Speaker 3: I've been to hundreds of masses in my life. And

150
00:07:27,630 --> 00:07:35,150
Speaker 3: I have never, ever heard the gospel about grace in

151
00:07:35,190 --> 00:07:41,780
Speaker 3: a Roman Catholic homily, except for the last mass I

152
00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,260
Speaker 3: went to. And that was my father's funeral.

153
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:45,940
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness.

154
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,640
Speaker 3: The priest got up there and he said, this is

155
00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,220
Speaker 3: in 2020. Priest got up there and said, I talked

156
00:07:51,260 --> 00:07:55,060
Speaker 3: to Frank the other day, my dad, and he accepted grace.

157
00:07:55,460 --> 00:07:57,580
Speaker 3: Christ as his Lord and Savior, so he's in heaven

158
00:07:57,620 --> 00:08:00,220
Speaker 3: right now. He didn't say anything about sacraments.

159
00:08:00,260 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 1: He didn't say anything about works.

160
00:08:03,260 --> 00:08:07,330
Speaker 3: He just stated the clear truth that if you trust

161
00:08:07,370 --> 00:08:12,310
Speaker 3: in Christ, you are forgiven, and you're given Christ's righteousness,

162
00:08:12,430 --> 00:08:17,800
Speaker 3: and you have eternal life with the Lord. So I've

163
00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 3: asked Catholic apologists that. I said, why have I never

164
00:08:20,540 --> 00:08:26,700
Speaker 3: heard this? And they answer back by saying, well, it's

165
00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:28,760
Speaker 3: embedded in the Mass. I say, I'm not asking about

166
00:08:28,780 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 3: the Mass. I'm asking about the homily. How come I

167
00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:38,679
Speaker 3: never hear a Catholic priest talking about grace? I never have, ever. Now,

168
00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,480
Speaker 3: that's just my limited experience. So I was always frustrated

169
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,500
Speaker 3: with that, Sean, growing up. I was like, we're just

170
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:50,270
Speaker 3: going through the motions here, man. It's like Jesus said,

171
00:08:50,309 --> 00:08:53,110
Speaker 3: don't pray in these repetitive prayers. Gee, I wonder why.

172
00:08:54,429 --> 00:08:56,050
Speaker 3: After a while, it's rote. After a while, you don't

173
00:08:56,070 --> 00:08:59,350
Speaker 3: even think about it anymore. Now, that's partially my fault.

174
00:08:59,510 --> 00:09:05,110
Speaker 3: I get it, but I just never. I wasn't learning

175
00:09:05,170 --> 00:09:07,110
Speaker 3: anything from the service. Let me put it that way.

176
00:09:07,830 --> 00:09:09,369
Speaker 4: I got one more question for you, then Scott is

177
00:09:09,390 --> 00:09:11,390
Speaker 4: going to jump in. Before you kind of went into

178
00:09:11,410 --> 00:09:13,329
Speaker 4: the world of apologetics and we get to kind of

179
00:09:13,350 --> 00:09:16,820
Speaker 4: what you're doing now in that journey, what would you

180
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,520
Speaker 4: have said the trajectory of your life was going to be?

181
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,540
Speaker 4: You were in the military. I know you were giving

182
00:09:21,620 --> 00:09:24,750
Speaker 4: business talks. Like if you weren't doing this apologetics and

183
00:09:24,830 --> 00:09:27,110
Speaker 4: asked you in your 20s where you were headed, where

184
00:09:27,140 --> 00:09:28,910
Speaker 4: did you think you were headed or where were you

185
00:09:28,970 --> 00:09:29,510
Speaker 4: trying to go?

186
00:09:29,530 --> 00:09:32,189
Speaker 3: Well, I originally went into the Navy to fly. I

187
00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:36,030
Speaker 3: wanted to fly. And so I went ROTC. I also

188
00:09:36,050 --> 00:09:39,490
Speaker 3: wanted to serve the country. But when I got into ROTC,

189
00:09:39,590 --> 00:09:41,969
Speaker 3: in those days, you had to have perfect 20-20 vision

190
00:09:41,990 --> 00:09:42,670
Speaker 3: to be a pilot.

191
00:09:43,309 --> 00:09:47,470
Speaker 1: Nowadays, you don't. So I was like 20-30, you know.

192
00:09:47,990 --> 00:09:49,570
Speaker 3: Okay, can't be a pilot, so I'll be what they

193
00:09:49,590 --> 00:09:52,030
Speaker 3: call a naval flight officer, a backseater, if you will.

194
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,699
Speaker 3: And so I was on a P3, which is a big,

195
00:09:55,940 --> 00:09:58,310
Speaker 3: ugly turboprop that went out and hunted submarines.

196
00:09:59,270 --> 00:09:59,930
Speaker 1: And so.

197
00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:05,320
Speaker 3: From about 1985 to about 1989 that's what i did

198
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 3: and i was stationed mostly in california i was up

199
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,530
Speaker 3: in san jose area moffett field it was called just

200
00:10:10,590 --> 00:10:14,090
Speaker 3: the basis of san jose bay or yeah the san

201
00:10:14,110 --> 00:10:17,630
Speaker 3: francisco bay and uh so i was there and then

202
00:10:18,330 --> 00:10:22,340
Speaker 3: After that, I went to ROTC instructor training. I was

203
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,560
Speaker 3: an instructor at ROTC and George Washington University, just five

204
00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,319
Speaker 3: blocks west of the White House. And it was at

205
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,079
Speaker 3: that point I wanted to figure out a way to

206
00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,070
Speaker 3: get into apologetics. But I knew that it would take

207
00:10:35,260 --> 00:10:39,989
Speaker 3: me going to seminary. And I remember your dad was

208
00:10:40,250 --> 00:10:47,460
Speaker 3: at a church there in the D.C. area. And he

209
00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,140
Speaker 3: had just done speaking. And I asked him, Hey, if

210
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,300
Speaker 3: I want to get involved in apologetics, what do I do?

211
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,600
Speaker 3: And he pointed at somebody like on a staff. He said,

212
00:10:53,700 --> 00:11:00,750
Speaker 3: talk to that guy. And I don't remember where that went,

213
00:11:00,890 --> 00:11:06,270
Speaker 3: but I providentially met Norman Geisler through this class at

214
00:11:06,290 --> 00:11:07,250
Speaker 3: McLean Bible Church.

215
00:11:07,309 --> 00:11:08,320
Speaker 1: And that's how I got in.

216
00:11:08,350 --> 00:11:15,020
Speaker 3: Now from going to seminary in 1993 to 2011, I

217
00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:17,920
Speaker 3: was doing corporate training for companies most of the time.

218
00:11:17,980 --> 00:11:20,960
Speaker 3: I was doing sales training, leadership training, team building, that

219
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,480
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. While I was going through seminary, while

220
00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:27,680
Speaker 3: I'd already started cross-examined, while I was going to college campuses,

221
00:11:27,780 --> 00:11:30,910
Speaker 3: because I needed to feed the family, obviously. And it

222
00:11:30,970 --> 00:11:34,110
Speaker 3: wasn't until 2011 when in the name of inclusion, tolerance,

223
00:11:34,170 --> 00:11:34,809
Speaker 3: and diversity.

224
00:11:35,620 --> 00:11:36,900
Speaker 1: I was fired.

225
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 3: And not tolerated for holding the diverse view of writing

226
00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:43,660
Speaker 3: this book, Correct, Not Politically Correct, How Same-Sex Marriage Hurts Everyone.

227
00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,320
Speaker 1: It originally came out in 2008.

228
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:50,540
Speaker 3: It's been updated a couple of times since then. So

229
00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,640
Speaker 3: Cisco fired me, Bank of America fired me. And so

230
00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,620
Speaker 3: I just basically went public with it. And I said,

231
00:11:56,660 --> 00:12:01,300
Speaker 3: these companies, which are supposed to be all about inclusion, tolerance,

232
00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:05,990
Speaker 3: and diversity, are not including nor tolerating me for holding

233
00:12:06,010 --> 00:12:08,190
Speaker 3: the diverse view that marriage is between a man and

234
00:12:08,210 --> 00:12:10,330
Speaker 3: a woman. And these weren't things I was bringing up

235
00:12:10,390 --> 00:12:13,670
Speaker 3: at work. They just had somebody who hunted the internet

236
00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:17,340
Speaker 3: and was part of the LGBTQ community and said, oh,

237
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,140
Speaker 3: this guy can't work here because he doesn't believe with

238
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,160
Speaker 3: same-sex marriage or he doesn't believe in same-sex marriage. That

239
00:12:22,179 --> 00:12:24,189
Speaker 3: was even four years before Obergefell.

240
00:12:24,190 --> 00:12:28,650
Speaker 4: 2008 was Prop 8 in California, by the way, where

241
00:12:28,670 --> 00:12:33,160
Speaker 4: a majority of Californians were in favor of natural marriage.

242
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 4: So that is 20 years ago to see how far

243
00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:38,640
Speaker 4: we've come. So you were, if I understand, from the

244
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,030
Speaker 4: 90s into 2008, you were doing apologetics part time. And

245
00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:45,600
Speaker 4: that just pushed you out to do it full time.

246
00:12:45,620 --> 00:12:47,200
Speaker 4: Now we'll come to that. I know Scott has got

247
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:47,980
Speaker 4: a question for you.

248
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I asked Cliff Connectly, he played college basketball

249
00:12:50,620 --> 00:12:53,080
Speaker 2: at Davidson and I said, Hey, how did basketball shape

250
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,620
Speaker 2: the way that you are an apologist and evangelist now?

251
00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:57,459
Speaker 2: And you mentioned that you were in the military. How

252
00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,670
Speaker 2: has being in the military or being part of ROTC

253
00:13:00,010 --> 00:13:02,270
Speaker 2: shaped the way that you're an apologist and evangelist today?

254
00:13:03,090 --> 00:13:05,390
Speaker 3: Well, being in the military forced you to get up

255
00:13:05,470 --> 00:13:10,110
Speaker 3: on your feet and present and instruct, uh, And also

256
00:13:10,510 --> 00:13:14,730
Speaker 3: it gave you obviously discipline. It also gave you structure. And,

257
00:13:15,570 --> 00:13:16,990
Speaker 3: you know, you had to do what you said you

258
00:13:17,010 --> 00:13:20,310
Speaker 3: were going to do. Some of the things are life

259
00:13:20,370 --> 00:13:23,310
Speaker 3: and death. You know, you're in an aircraft. You know,

260
00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:25,089
Speaker 3: you've got to do what you're supposed to be doing.

261
00:13:25,870 --> 00:13:28,250
Speaker 3: So I think it helped me with structure, helped me

262
00:13:28,270 --> 00:13:32,570
Speaker 3: with discipline, helped me get up before people and present.

263
00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:34,929
Speaker 3: So by the time I got out of the Navy,

264
00:13:35,010 --> 00:13:38,429
Speaker 3: I already had some natural ability to present. And all

265
00:13:38,470 --> 00:13:40,829
Speaker 3: I needed to do is educate myself on the subject.

266
00:13:41,990 --> 00:13:45,959
Speaker 3: And I, you know, for years, we've been running the

267
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,380
Speaker 3: Cross-Examine Instructor Academy. As you know, Sean, you've helped us

268
00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:49,460
Speaker 3: teach it several times.

269
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:49,680
Speaker 4: Yeah.

270
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,939
Speaker 3: Where we're trying to help people get better at presenting

271
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:58,670
Speaker 3: the evidence for Christianity and deal with cultural issues. And

272
00:13:58,929 --> 00:14:04,750
Speaker 3: in 19 years of doing this, I'd say that many

273
00:14:04,950 --> 00:14:09,260
Speaker 3: fewer people than I expected were have we identified that

274
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,959
Speaker 3: can really present well and answer questions well? Part of

275
00:14:13,020 --> 00:14:17,059
Speaker 3: it is, I think, just gifting. People can understand a

276
00:14:17,820 --> 00:14:20,220
Speaker 3: lot of times the material, but they can't present it

277
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,540
Speaker 3: well or they can't call it up fast enough to

278
00:14:23,950 --> 00:14:28,510
Speaker 3: answer questions. So part of it is gifting. It's a

279
00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:31,370
Speaker 3: difficult thing to teach. Let me put it that way.

280
00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:33,010
Speaker 3: I mean, you can teach it, but it's not always

281
00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:35,870
Speaker 3: that people can then apply it. That's the hard thing.

282
00:14:36,220 --> 00:14:37,640
Speaker 1: I like that you said discipline.

283
00:14:37,740 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 2: I think with our generation, especially mine, is that we're

284
00:14:41,340 --> 00:14:43,540
Speaker 2: lacking discipline. So many of my kids, like I'm a

285
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:44,800
Speaker 2: youth pastor, so many of my kids will come to

286
00:14:44,820 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 2: me like, how do I grow closer to God or

287
00:14:46,660 --> 00:14:49,360
Speaker 2: how do I answer these questions? And they lack discipline

288
00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 2: in their life. And I think that I see that

289
00:14:50,860 --> 00:14:53,989
Speaker 2: the military completely gave you that. And that's the advice

290
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,390
Speaker 2: that I give to those kids. I'm like, hey, instill

291
00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:57,910
Speaker 2: disciplines in your life, whether you're addicted to porn or

292
00:14:57,950 --> 00:14:59,950
Speaker 2: you're doing something you shouldn't be doing, like instilling those

293
00:15:00,050 --> 00:15:02,090
Speaker 2: disciplines in your life and studying the scriptures.

294
00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:03,710
Speaker 1: I love that you said that and that's what you did.

295
00:15:04,620 --> 00:15:07,820
Speaker 3: Yeah, your habits will determine your future. I think Aristotle

296
00:15:07,860 --> 00:15:11,420
Speaker 3: may have said that, something like, you know, I'm paraphrasing,

297
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:15,900
Speaker 3: but your habits really are your destiny in the sense

298
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,780
Speaker 3: that if what you do every day is going to

299
00:15:20,180 --> 00:15:24,370
Speaker 3: build your future for good or for evil, and it's

300
00:15:24,430 --> 00:15:27,490
Speaker 3: important to get those disciplines down. And unfortunately, we are

301
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:32,530
Speaker 3: so often pulled away from Staying focused by, of course,

302
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,660
Speaker 3: social media and our iPhones and all that, that's one

303
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,760
Speaker 3: of the problems. It pulls our attention away from what's

304
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:40,480
Speaker 3: really important.

305
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 4: Frank, you mentioned More Than a Carpenter and Evidence That

306
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:46,040
Speaker 4: Demands a Verdict. If you ask my dad, and I have,

307
00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,720
Speaker 4: what he thought when he was a skeptic trying to

308
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:53,060
Speaker 4: disprove Christianity, that book Evidence That Demands a Verdict is

309
00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 4: full of a ton of evidence. But he actually was

310
00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:58,700
Speaker 4: the only one when I interviewed 100 Christian apologists who

311
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,250
Speaker 4: believes prophecy is one of the most compelling evidences. Also

312
00:16:03,290 --> 00:16:06,070
Speaker 4: the willingness of the apostles to suffer and die for

313
00:16:06,110 --> 00:16:09,350
Speaker 4: their beliefs and the manuscript evidence was compelling to him.

314
00:16:10,050 --> 00:16:12,910
Speaker 4: I'd be curious when you first read those books, what

315
00:16:13,010 --> 00:16:15,010
Speaker 4: was it about them? Was it the resurrection?

316
00:16:15,050 --> 00:16:16,030
Speaker 1: Was it prophecy?

317
00:16:16,090 --> 00:16:19,850
Speaker 4: Do you remember some of those pieces and those evidences

318
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:23,330
Speaker 4: at that time? And are they the same today? Or

319
00:16:23,350 --> 00:16:26,270
Speaker 4: do you point towards other evidences that you consider most

320
00:16:26,310 --> 00:16:28,150
Speaker 4: compelling that Jesus is God?

321
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,540
Speaker 3: Well, there's only two things you need to establish, as

322
00:16:31,580 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 3: you know, to show that Christianity is true. Number one,

323
00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 3: God exists. Number two, Jesus rose from the dead, right?

324
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,140
Speaker 3: Those are the two. And so I actually think the

325
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,910
Speaker 3: evidence is even more compelling for God than it is

326
00:16:43,930 --> 00:16:47,510
Speaker 3: for Jesus. And the reason I say that is because, um,

327
00:16:49,070 --> 00:16:52,170
Speaker 3: Jesus relies on some historical data where, as you can

328
00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:56,130
Speaker 3: see right now, uh, the evidence for God all around you,

329
00:16:56,170 --> 00:16:58,500
Speaker 3: you can see the fine tuning, you can see the, uh,

330
00:16:59,030 --> 00:17:02,990
Speaker 3: expanding universe, you know, you can, you can detect that

331
00:17:03,010 --> 00:17:04,389
Speaker 3: there's gotta be a designer.

332
00:17:05,030 --> 00:17:06,370
Speaker 1: Um, now don't get me wrong.

333
00:17:06,410 --> 00:17:08,469
Speaker 3: I think the evidence for Christianity is very strong, but

334
00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:12,130
Speaker 3: it takes another step. And that, that other step involves

335
00:17:12,170 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 3: historical inquiry and historical information. Um, I, I'm personally most persuaded. I, I,

336
00:17:22,619 --> 00:17:25,160
Speaker 3: I mean, there's, there's no, virtually no doubt in my mind.

337
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,399
Speaker 3: There's a, there's a creative intelligence out there. Hmm.

338
00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:30,109
Speaker 1: The only question is, who is it?

339
00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:30,660
Speaker 2: Right.

340
00:17:31,619 --> 00:17:41,140
Speaker 3: And I'm much more persuaded by archaeology, embarrassing testimony that

341
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 3: they never would have invented. What you wrote about in

342
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,410
Speaker 3: your dissertation, the fate of the apostles, I'm much more

343
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:55,010
Speaker 3: persuaded by that than manuscript evidence or because, you know,

344
00:17:55,050 --> 00:17:57,520
Speaker 3: you could you could you could just have a. faithful

345
00:17:57,580 --> 00:18:02,409
Speaker 3: copy of a lie, right? So, I mean, manuscripts are necessary,

346
00:18:02,510 --> 00:18:05,530
Speaker 3: but you can have a lot of manuscripts for the Quran.

347
00:18:05,550 --> 00:18:09,850
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean the Quran's true, right? It's necessary, but

348
00:18:09,890 --> 00:18:10,649
Speaker 1: not sufficient.

349
00:18:11,650 --> 00:18:14,930
Speaker 3: And so these arguments that talk about, you know, why

350
00:18:14,950 --> 00:18:17,160
Speaker 3: would they say the women were the first witnesses? Why

351
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:21,010
Speaker 3: would they depict themselves as dim-witted? Why would They say

352
00:18:21,090 --> 00:18:24,670
Speaker 3: Jesus was called a madman, a drunkard, demon-possessed. Why would

353
00:18:24,690 --> 00:18:26,670
Speaker 3: they say their Savior was hung on a tree like

354
00:18:26,710 --> 00:18:30,990
Speaker 3: a criminal? Why would they do all this stuff if

355
00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 3: they're making it up?

356
00:18:31,850 --> 00:18:32,290
Speaker 1: They wouldn't.

357
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:37,450
Speaker 3: And then why would they suffer persecution after being excommunicated

358
00:18:37,490 --> 00:18:41,200
Speaker 3: from the synagogue and then beaten, tortured, and killed? Why

359
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,500
Speaker 3: would they do all that if they didn't really think

360
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:45,660
Speaker 3: Jesus rose from the dead?

361
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 1: Answer, they wouldn't.

362
00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:54,070
Speaker 3: So I like to say to audiences that Christianity would

363
00:18:54,109 --> 00:18:56,850
Speaker 3: be true if the Bible never existed. And people go,

364
00:18:56,890 --> 00:19:01,629
Speaker 3: what do you mean? And I say to them, do

365
00:19:01,650 --> 00:19:04,010
Speaker 3: you realize there were thousands of Christians before the line

366
00:19:04,030 --> 00:19:05,470
Speaker 3: of the New Testament was ever written?

367
00:19:06,510 --> 00:19:06,830
Speaker 1: Yeah.

368
00:19:07,369 --> 00:19:10,250
Speaker 3: Why? Because they didn't read about it in a book.

369
00:19:10,690 --> 00:19:13,470
Speaker 3: Christianity didn't begin with a book. It began with an event,

370
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:17,660
Speaker 3: the resurrection. Right. There would be no series of books

371
00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 3: written by Jews in the first century claiming a man

372
00:19:21,310 --> 00:19:24,050
Speaker 3: claimed to be God and rose from the dead, unless

373
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:25,870
Speaker 3: a man really did claim to be God and really

374
00:19:25,910 --> 00:19:27,609
Speaker 3: did rise from the dead because there's no motive to

375
00:19:27,670 --> 00:19:31,530
Speaker 3: invent it. So I really look back at the motivations

376
00:19:32,510 --> 00:19:38,129
Speaker 3: and the implausibility of this character known as Jesus, an

377
00:19:38,210 --> 00:19:41,370
Speaker 3: itinerant preacher in a remote part of the Roman Empire,

378
00:19:42,250 --> 00:19:45,500
Speaker 3: becoming the most influential human being in history if the

379
00:19:45,540 --> 00:19:49,490
Speaker 3: resurrection did not occur. In fact, in the new edition

380
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:50,960
Speaker 3: of I Don't Have an Faith to Be an Atheist,

381
00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:54,580
Speaker 3: and thanks for endorsing it, it comes out in October.

382
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:55,180
Speaker 4: It's great.

383
00:19:56,540 --> 00:20:00,260
Speaker 3: We added something that I learned from William Lane Craig

384
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:03,690
Speaker 3: and Tim McGrew over the past 20 years, and that

385
00:20:03,790 --> 00:20:07,050
Speaker 3: is it's not just the evidence for a particular proposition

386
00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:08,949
Speaker 3: that that you need to look at to see if

387
00:20:08,970 --> 00:20:11,930
Speaker 3: the proposition, the truthfulness of the proposition is so.

388
00:20:12,580 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 1: You also need to look at whether or not you

389
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 1: would have this evidence if, say, Christianity was false. You know,

390
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,220
Speaker 1: would you have a universe exploded into being out of nothing,

391
00:20:24,310 --> 00:20:29,770
Speaker 1: fine-tuning moral law? Would we have free will and consciousness?

392
00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:33,429
Speaker 1: Would we have these laws of reason? Would we have

393
00:20:33,850 --> 00:20:37,859
Speaker 1: Old Testament prophecy? Would we have all these.

394
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,220
Speaker 3: Jewish people saying that a man claimed to be God

395
00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,520
Speaker 3: and rose from the dead? Would they embarrass themselves? And

396
00:20:46,540 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 3: would they go to their deaths? And would we have

397
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,530
Speaker 3: all this if Christianity wasn't true? Would you have non-Christian

398
00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:57,070
Speaker 3: writers talking about this if it wasn't true? Would we

399
00:20:57,090 --> 00:21:00,869
Speaker 3: have all this archaeological evidence if it wasn't true? And

400
00:21:00,890 --> 00:21:03,990
Speaker 3: when you look at it from that perspective, you'd go, no,

401
00:21:04,010 --> 00:21:09,270
Speaker 3: I don't, it'd be like, investigating a crime scene, would

402
00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:12,780
Speaker 3: you have the guy's fingerprints on the weapon? Would you

403
00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:16,420
Speaker 3: have his DNA at the crime scene? Would you have

404
00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:19,940
Speaker 3: the evidence that he had threatened this guy before? Would

405
00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,500
Speaker 3: you have the fact that he's now trying to flee

406
00:21:23,540 --> 00:21:26,350
Speaker 3: the country? Would you have all this evidence if he

407
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,910
Speaker 3: wasn't the real killer? No.

408
00:21:30,190 --> 00:21:33,770
Speaker 1: The evidence is he is the real killer.

409
00:21:34,790 --> 00:21:38,090
Speaker 3: So, I think you can look at it positively and

410
00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:41,470
Speaker 3: from the other side to say– and probability theorists, by.

411
00:21:41,390 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: The way, know this.

412
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,180
Speaker 3: They say– they look at it from that perspective and say,

413
00:21:46,540 --> 00:21:48,780
Speaker 3: what is the probability we'd have this evidence if the

414
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,020
Speaker 3: resurrection did not occur? And when they add all that

415
00:21:53,060 --> 00:21:57,620
Speaker 3: probability up, the evidence for the resurrection is extremely good.

416
00:21:58,520 --> 00:21:59,790
Speaker 4: I got one more question for you, then I want

417
00:21:59,810 --> 00:22:03,709
Speaker 4: Scotty to weigh in here. Do you remember– when you

418
00:22:03,730 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 4: kind of made that decision to follow after Christ, what

419
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,609
Speaker 4: was it like? Because, I mean, Scotty just interviewed a young, uh,

420
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:17,820
Speaker 4: let's say, apologist and evangelist to Muslims. And she was like,

421
00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:21,610
Speaker 4: December 2023, I remember it. My dad's like, I was

422
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,290
Speaker 4: in a library. He gives the year, lean back. He's like,

423
00:22:24,369 --> 00:22:27,729
Speaker 4: shouts out in the library, Christianity is true. My story

424
00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:29,770
Speaker 4: was very different than that. It was just kind of

425
00:22:29,810 --> 00:22:32,850
Speaker 4: a series of growth and understanding, even though there were

426
00:22:32,890 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 4: some pivotal moments. Was there a kind of moment you're like,

427
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,580
Speaker 4: oh my goodness, Christianity is true. I need to personally

428
00:22:38,660 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 4: trust Christ. And what was that like for you, if so?

429
00:22:42,710 --> 00:22:44,030
Speaker 1: Well, there was a pivotal moment.

430
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:47,190
Speaker 3: I would say it came in March of 1985 when

431
00:22:47,470 --> 00:22:50,649
Speaker 3: the guy I mentioned earlier, who I met in flight school,

432
00:22:51,210 --> 00:22:53,430
Speaker 3: who was the son of a Methodist minister, we're sitting

433
00:22:53,450 --> 00:22:59,550
Speaker 3: in Sacramento, California. We're training, we're navigators there. And long

434
00:22:59,590 --> 00:23:04,710
Speaker 3: story short, we were talking about, I asked him two questions.

435
00:23:04,890 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 3: You know, if there is a good God, why is

436
00:23:07,910 --> 00:23:09,780
Speaker 3: all this evil in the world? I mean, you know,

437
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,460
Speaker 3: I could take a gun out right now and shoot

438
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 3: your mark. God wouldn't stop it. And secondly, how can

439
00:23:14,060 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 3: you believe Jesus is the only way? You know, what

440
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,659
Speaker 3: about all those people in other countries that never hear

441
00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:21,920
Speaker 3: about Jesus? And all he quoted at that point was

442
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,060
Speaker 3: John 14, 6, I'm the way, the truth, and the life.

443
00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:26,980
Speaker 3: No man comes to the Father except through me. And

444
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 3: so we were going to go to church that morning,

445
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 3: and I looked at my watch and said, well, we

446
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:33,510
Speaker 3: better get going because if we don't get there soon,

447
00:23:33,550 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 3: we're going to miss the service. And we really didn't

448
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,369
Speaker 3: even know where the church was or what time it started.

449
00:23:37,410 --> 00:23:41,070
Speaker 3: We had a ballpark idea. So we got in my car.

450
00:23:41,090 --> 00:23:42,889
Speaker 3: We knew it was Sunrise Church. We're heading out to

451
00:23:42,930 --> 00:23:45,750
Speaker 3: Highway 50 there in Sacramento. And he goes, hey, I

452
00:23:45,790 --> 00:23:48,909
Speaker 3: think I think Sunrise Church is to the west. And

453
00:23:48,930 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: I go, no, Mark, I think it's to the east. Now,

454
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,740
Speaker 3: keep in mind, we're two navigators, right? And since I'm driving,

455
00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:00,830
Speaker 3: we start heading east. And 10 minutes into the drive,

456
00:24:00,850 --> 00:24:02,310
Speaker 3: there's no sign of Sunrise Avenue.

457
00:24:02,350 --> 00:24:04,169
Speaker 1: And Mark goes, see, I told you it was the

458
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:04,690
Speaker 1: other way.

459
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:07,409
Speaker 3: Now, a man would rather drive 25,000 miles around the

460
00:24:07,470 --> 00:24:09,190
Speaker 3: earth than admit he's wrong about direction.

461
00:24:09,230 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 1: So I just kept driving. And a couple minutes later,

462
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: I saw it, Sunrise Avenue. I go, see?

463
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:17,100
Speaker 3: Anyway, we get off the highway and we find the

464
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 3: church and we get into the parking lot and the

465
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:20,540
Speaker 3: parking lot's full.

466
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:26,570
Speaker 1: Nobody coming, nobody going. We're going. We're late. So we

467
00:24:26,609 --> 00:24:28,150
Speaker 1: go into the church side door.

468
00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:31,619
Speaker 3: And we slither in because the pastor's right in the

469
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,780
Speaker 3: middle of a sermon and we sit down and he's

470
00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:38,820
Speaker 3: just standing like in front of the auditorium.

471
00:24:38,859 --> 00:24:39,659
Speaker 1: It's just a gym.

472
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,020
Speaker 3: You know, the basketball hoops are up on each side

473
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,739
Speaker 3: and he's standing kind of in the middle there with

474
00:24:44,790 --> 00:24:45,270
Speaker 3: his Bible.

475
00:24:45,290 --> 00:24:48,090
Speaker 1: That's all he's got. And I'm just sitting next to Mark.

476
00:24:48,130 --> 00:24:51,379
Speaker 3: We just slithered in and two minutes into us slipping in,

477
00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:53,470
Speaker 3: he goes, Oh, by the way, I forgot to tell

478
00:24:53,490 --> 00:24:57,810
Speaker 3: you when we were in the having breakfast, he said,

479
00:24:59,250 --> 00:25:01,010
Speaker 3: John 14, 6, I'm the way, truth, and the life.

480
00:25:01,030 --> 00:25:02,350
Speaker 1: No man comes to the Father except through me. And

481
00:25:02,369 --> 00:25:04,949
Speaker 1: I said, Mark, that's kind of narrow. I mean, come on.

482
00:25:05,890 --> 00:25:07,670
Speaker 1: And he said, well, it's in the Bible. I believe

483
00:25:07,690 --> 00:25:08,450
Speaker 1: the Bible. It's true.

484
00:25:08,540 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 3: So now we get into the sermon. And two minutes

485
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 3: in to the sermon, he goes, and then Jesus said,

486
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 3: I'm the way, the truth, and the life. No man

487
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,500
Speaker 3: comes to the Father except through me. And so Mark

488
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,500
Speaker 3: gives me an elbow, right? Like, hey, we were just

489
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,210
Speaker 3: talking about this. And then the preacher says, now some

490
00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:32,609
Speaker 3: people think that's narrow. And so now he's really elbowing me.

491
00:25:32,850 --> 00:25:34,709
Speaker 3: And he goes, but you know what? The truth is narrow.

492
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:38,379
Speaker 3: If I want to dial my friend John here in

493
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,619
Speaker 3: the front row, I got to dial seven numbers in

494
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: the exact order. If I get one number wrong, I

495
00:25:42,619 --> 00:25:46,820
Speaker 3: don't get John. I get a wrong number. Now, I

496
00:25:46,859 --> 00:25:50,229
Speaker 3: didn't immediately say Christianity is true at this point, but

497
00:25:50,270 --> 00:25:53,530
Speaker 3: I said, look, we're coming to a church.

498
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:55,030
Speaker 1: We didn't know where it was. We didn't know when

499
00:25:55,070 --> 00:26:00,450
Speaker 1: it started. We didn't We didn't know any of this, and.

500
00:26:00,410 --> 00:26:05,110
Speaker 3: We're talking about this verse that morning, and somehow when

501
00:26:05,150 --> 00:26:08,050
Speaker 3: we slip into this church, he's talking about this and

502
00:26:08,130 --> 00:26:12,130
Speaker 3: addressing the very objection I had. There's something to this.

503
00:26:12,340 --> 00:26:15,700
Speaker 3: Something's going on. God's providence is at work, right? I

504
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 3: didn't have all my questions answered at that point, but

505
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: At that point, I'm going, yeah, this really does appear

506
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,380
Speaker 3: to be true, and I'm still reading books at that point.

507
00:26:26,420 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: So that was March.

508
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: The reason I know it's March of 1985 is because

509
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:37,380
Speaker 3: I somehow ran into his son, Jonathan McKee. You might

510
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:38,310
Speaker 3: know Jonathan McKee.

511
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:39,220
Speaker 1: I do, yeah.

512
00:26:39,790 --> 00:26:42,950
Speaker 3: Okay, well, his father, Tom McKee, was the pastor of

513
00:26:43,010 --> 00:26:44,830
Speaker 3: Sunrise Church in Sacramento, California.

514
00:26:45,470 --> 00:26:48,330
Speaker 4: Texted Jonathan literally this week. That's crazy to hear.

515
00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:50,070
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so.

516
00:26:50,070 --> 00:26:53,380
Speaker 3: 10 years or so ago, Jonathan and I ran into

517
00:26:53,460 --> 00:26:56,700
Speaker 3: one another. And I went and I had lunch with

518
00:26:56,740 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 3: he and his dad, who was probably near 80, 10

519
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,740
Speaker 3: or so years ago. And he went into his notes

520
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: because he kept notes for every sermon. And he went

521
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,100
Speaker 3: back and he said it was like March 20th, 1985,

522
00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 3: whatever it was. And he sent me the notes.

523
00:27:15,410 --> 00:27:16,490
Speaker 1: It said, it's cool.

524
00:27:16,609 --> 00:27:19,690
Speaker 3: It said, John 14, six telephone illustration.

525
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:20,870
Speaker 1: He like wrote it in there.

526
00:27:24,290 --> 00:27:26,429
Speaker 3: So it totally came full circle.

527
00:27:27,109 --> 00:27:27,530
Speaker 1: That's awesome.

528
00:27:27,650 --> 00:27:30,710
Speaker 2: So Frank, we were responding to this Instagram video on

529
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:32,530
Speaker 2: a week ago. And it's about this Mormon who was

530
00:27:32,590 --> 00:27:33,790
Speaker 2: trying to say, he was like, I'm trying to prove

531
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:35,510
Speaker 2: that we worship the same Jesus. And he's like, I'm

532
00:27:35,530 --> 00:27:37,790
Speaker 2: going to go to the source. And he asked chat GPT.

533
00:27:37,930 --> 00:27:40,050
Speaker 2: And we were both like, okay, no, that is not

534
00:27:40,109 --> 00:27:42,490
Speaker 2: the source. Where would you tell a young person who's

535
00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:45,100
Speaker 2: trying to discover truth, maybe about the Bible, about the

536
00:27:45,140 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: person of Jesus, where would you tell them to start?

537
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: And why would you tell them to maybe start with Christianity?

538
00:27:50,859 --> 00:27:54,010
Speaker 1: Yeah, start in the Bible. I mean, that's the Bible.

539
00:27:54,050 --> 00:27:57,110
Speaker 3: People don't recognize the Bible is a collection of historical

540
00:27:57,150 --> 00:28:01,550
Speaker 3: documents written by eyewitnesses or people that knew eyewitnesses. We

541
00:28:01,590 --> 00:28:04,409
Speaker 3: just assembled it under one binding because the Bible is

542
00:28:04,450 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 3: not one book. It's a library of books. Now, theologically,

543
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 3: we believe it's inspired and came from God. But even

544
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,139
Speaker 3: if you didn't think that, these are still eyewitness documents

545
00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:16,580
Speaker 3: that you can investigate and discover whether or not you

546
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,580
Speaker 3: think they're true. And we have four biographies of Jesus

547
00:28:20,859 --> 00:28:26,100
Speaker 3: in this book, a library of books called the Bible, Matthew, Mark, Luke,

548
00:28:26,140 --> 00:28:29,700
Speaker 3: and John. And when you look at the evidence, they

549
00:28:29,740 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 3: put eyewitness details all over it that only an eyewitness

550
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,180
Speaker 3: would know.

551
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: And of course we cover that and I don't have

552
00:28:34,580 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 1: enough faith to be an atheist.

553
00:28:35,660 --> 00:28:38,510
Speaker 3: So I would say go to the source, the people

554
00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:42,890
Speaker 3: that knew him and, uh, read what Jesus said and did.

555
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:46,260
Speaker 2: Is there, is there a particular gospel you'd say, all right,

556
00:28:46,410 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 2: I start with the gospel of John or start with Matthew.

557
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:49,270
Speaker 1: Is there a specific one?

558
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:50,740
Speaker 2: You're like, I think this is the best for somebody

559
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,060
Speaker 2: who's never read the Bible, never read the gospels to

560
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:53,540
Speaker 2: start at.

561
00:28:54,460 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: Well, probably John, because it has less required knowledge of

562
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:04,690
Speaker 3: the old Testament in it, even though, um, even though

563
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:09,730
Speaker 3: there is some of it in there, obviously, uh, So

564
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,540
Speaker 3: John or Luke, maybe. I mean, Luke has some great

565
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,500
Speaker 3: parables that aren't found elsewhere, like the prodigal son, you know.

566
00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:22,180
Speaker 1: So any of them. But I think that.

567
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 3: The Bible is some of the best evidence for Christianity

568
00:29:28,580 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 3: if understood properly. In fact, we just have an online

569
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,020
Speaker 3: course we're going through right now called The Bible You

570
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,740
Speaker 3: Never Knew. And when you look at Jesus saying in

571
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,790
Speaker 3: Luke 24, the whole Old Testament's about me You go.

572
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 3: how can it be all about you well when you

573
00:29:41,820 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 3: really investigate it you start realizing so many characters in

574
00:29:46,020 --> 00:29:49,950
Speaker 3: the old testament are foreshadowing jesus and once you see

575
00:29:49,990 --> 00:29:52,810
Speaker 3: that you go oh wow this thing is all interconnected

576
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:53,630
Speaker 3: i never knew.

577
00:29:53,470 --> 00:29:58,610
Speaker 4: You can't unsee that once you see it it changes everything.

578
00:29:58,010 --> 00:30:00,270
Speaker 1: Yeah Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

579
00:30:00,530 --> 00:30:03,630
Speaker 4: So you started going to seminary in the 90s, went

580
00:30:03,770 --> 00:30:08,490
Speaker 4: full-time 2011, and you've been running, I mean, full steam

581
00:30:08,530 --> 00:30:11,990
Speaker 4: ahead since then, writing, speaking, debating. If you had to

582
00:30:12,030 --> 00:30:14,750
Speaker 4: think through two or three of just the most significant

583
00:30:15,110 --> 00:30:17,390
Speaker 4: ministry moments, and it could be on stage or it

584
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:20,030
Speaker 4: could just be a ministry moment that's not on stage,

585
00:30:20,770 --> 00:30:23,150
Speaker 4: what are like two or three highlights for you that

586
00:30:23,170 --> 00:30:27,469
Speaker 4: were just most significant and memorable and special to you?

587
00:30:28,250 --> 00:30:31,110
Speaker 3: Well, most of them actually occur after because you get

588
00:30:31,230 --> 00:30:34,350
Speaker 3: emails from people, right? Or you get comments in a

589
00:30:34,390 --> 00:30:37,630
Speaker 3: YouTube video, you know, I was far away and then I,

590
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,620
Speaker 3: you helped bring me back to the faith or, you know,

591
00:30:42,630 --> 00:30:46,459
Speaker 3: I was searching and I read your book or it's

592
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 3: a process as you know, Sean, rarely do people just

593
00:30:49,780 --> 00:30:54,060
Speaker 3: come to faith after they hear your message once, unless

594
00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:57,100
Speaker 3: so many seeds have been planted to that point that,

595
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: boom now you know as our friend jay warden wallace

596
00:31:00,620 --> 00:31:04,450
Speaker 3: would say they're they're on third base leaning in right.

597
00:31:05,910 --> 00:31:08,030
Speaker 1: So um i think it's.

598
00:31:07,950 --> 00:31:12,500
Speaker 3: Probably more just comments that we get from people who

599
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,020
Speaker 3: uh have seen our material online or read the book

600
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,060
Speaker 3: or came to an event now.

601
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:20,810
Speaker 1: The most.

602
00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: The most impactful event, obviously, was the murder of Charlie

603
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:33,580
Speaker 3: Kirk because I was there with him. And not only personally,

604
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 3: but I think in a ministry sense, it made people's

605
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: hearts tender. And they have been for almost a year now.

606
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 3: There's more interest in spiritual life. and answers to why

607
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 3: are we here? What's this all about? Why this evil?

608
00:31:56,540 --> 00:31:59,970
Speaker 3: So it's an opportunity. That's why we kind of doubled

609
00:32:01,070 --> 00:32:03,850
Speaker 3: our efforts over the past year, because we knew that

610
00:32:03,930 --> 00:32:07,630
Speaker 3: hearts were more tender than normal. And there was a shift,

611
00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: particularly early on, from skepticism to evangelism in terms of questions.

612
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,239
Speaker 3: In other words, we were getting fewer questions about, well,

613
00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 3: I don't think you're right about this, to how can

614
00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:19,620
Speaker 3: I get my friend to become a Christian, you know?

615
00:32:20,790 --> 00:32:25,490
Speaker 1: Uh, so that event was.

616
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:28,870
Speaker 3: Well, it's going to be the biggest event in my life, uh,

617
00:32:29,530 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 3: personally and ministry wise, other than accepting Jesus and maybe marrying.

618
00:32:34,390 --> 00:32:41,540
Speaker 1: My wife, obviously, but it's an event you could do

619
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,020
Speaker 1: nothing about, but it happened.

620
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:48,020
Speaker 3: Right. And, um, the book, the war on reality was

621
00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 3: already in, probably halfway done by the time that happened.

622
00:32:52,740 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 3: And when it happened, I turned to Phoenix, our, you know,

623
00:32:56,340 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: my co-author on it and said, this book ought to

624
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,260
Speaker 3: be dedicated to Charlie because he was someone who was

625
00:33:03,340 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 3: fighting for reality while so many people were fighting against it.

626
00:33:07,940 --> 00:33:10,910
Speaker 3: And so the whole first chapter, the title of the

627
00:33:11,190 --> 00:33:14,670
Speaker 3: first chapter is Murder on Campus. And it leads up

628
00:33:14,730 --> 00:33:16,830
Speaker 3: to what happened that day. You know, Charlie and I

629
00:33:16,850 --> 00:33:18,690
Speaker 3: were together for the three days prior to that. And

630
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:22,670
Speaker 3: We had met several times prior to that to train

631
00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:25,530
Speaker 3: for this. And then what happened that day, what happened

632
00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: after it? And then how many different aspects of reality

633
00:33:34,180 --> 00:33:40,220
Speaker 3: people are denying now because they want something other than God, really?

634
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 3: I mean, it started in the Garden of Eden, right?

635
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: The war on reality started there, as God said, right?

636
00:33:47,060 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

637
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 3: No, I want to do my own thing, so I

638
00:33:49,820 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 3: don't like what God said. And the guy that allegedly

639
00:33:54,270 --> 00:33:59,450
Speaker 3: killed Charlie killed him, it appears, because he didn't like

640
00:33:59,490 --> 00:34:04,790
Speaker 3: what Charlie was saying on sexuality. And people are at

641
00:34:04,850 --> 00:34:11,430
Speaker 3: war with sexual categories and how God made them, and

642
00:34:11,489 --> 00:34:13,779
Speaker 3: that's why he thought Charlie was a fascist. Kind of

643
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,140
Speaker 3: ironic when you think about it. We all know that

644
00:34:16,260 --> 00:34:20,510
Speaker 3: a A typical fascist tactic is to hand your opponent

645
00:34:20,570 --> 00:34:23,670
Speaker 3: a microphone and say, go ahead, make your case, and

646
00:34:23,690 --> 00:34:24,810
Speaker 3: then we'll have a discussion.

647
00:34:24,969 --> 00:34:25,209
Speaker 2: No.

648
00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:29,270
Speaker 3: Newsflash, the guy that killed Charlie was the fascist, somebody

649
00:34:29,310 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 3: who couldn't tolerate anything other than what he thought. And

650
00:34:33,340 --> 00:34:35,859
Speaker 3: so there's a war on reality everywhere. And I think

651
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: at the root of it, Sean and Scotty, is rebellion.

652
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 3: You know, it's really, we've got two choices in life.

653
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:49,430
Speaker 3: We can rebel against reality or we can repent. and say, God,

654
00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 3: you're God and I'm not. But so many of us

655
00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:56,420
Speaker 3: want to rebel and rebel just leads to judgment. I mean,

656
00:34:56,460 --> 00:35:02,860
Speaker 3: reality is undefeated, right? Nobody beats reality ultimately. It's undefeated

657
00:35:02,980 --> 00:35:06,980
Speaker 3: and it's a fool's errand to fight against reality. In fact,

658
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: Erica Kirk wrote the forward for this and Charlie didn't

659
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:19,090
Speaker 3: marry her just because she's pretty. She's brilliant. I mean,

660
00:35:19,110 --> 00:35:20,750
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've seen the forward, even if

661
00:35:20,770 --> 00:35:22,150
Speaker 3: you don't buy the book, if you go to the

662
00:35:22,190 --> 00:35:23,589
Speaker 3: war on reality.com, you.

663
00:35:23,489 --> 00:35:23,989
Speaker 1: Can read it.

664
00:35:23,989 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 3: I'm paraphrasing what she said in the forward, but she said,

665
00:35:26,739 --> 00:35:34,980
Speaker 3: I had a new reality that happened to me September 10th, 2025.

666
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:40,460
Speaker 3: And I could deny it, but I found that peace

667
00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: doesn't come from denying reality.

668
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: It comes from surrendering to it.

669
00:35:46,930 --> 00:35:52,290
Speaker 3: And she, long ago surrendered our life to Christ and

670
00:35:52,350 --> 00:35:58,790
Speaker 3: is now trying to push forward through these demonic attacks, um,

671
00:35:58,950 --> 00:36:01,310
Speaker 3: to put her life back together, bring up her two

672
00:36:01,390 --> 00:36:06,580
Speaker 3: orphan kids or two fatherless kids and move her husband's

673
00:36:06,620 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: legacy forward.

674
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: Hey Frank, I know, I know you were there at

675
00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:13,060
Speaker 2: the moment that Charlie Kirk got shot. If you, if

676
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: you could sit across the table right now from Tyler Robinson,

677
00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: what is, what is the one thing you would tell him?

678
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 3: I would tell him the gospel because I want him

679
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,890
Speaker 3: to be saved just like everybody else, that you can

680
00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:28,569
Speaker 3: be forgiven for all the evil you've done, not just

681
00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:32,130
Speaker 3: shooting Charlie Kirk, but any other evil. I mean, we've

682
00:36:32,170 --> 00:36:36,850
Speaker 3: all done evil. We all need a savior. And if

683
00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:39,270
Speaker 3: he is guilty and evidence sure seems like he is,

684
00:36:39,290 --> 00:36:42,970
Speaker 3: I hope he repents. I hope he's saved. And then

685
00:36:42,989 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 3: I hope he's executed because that's what he deserves. And ironically,

686
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:54,790
Speaker 3: the death penalty in, Utah is firing squad. Uh, wow.

687
00:36:55,670 --> 00:36:58,870
Speaker 3: That's what he should get. And the death penalty is

688
00:36:58,910 --> 00:37:01,610
Speaker 3: affirmed in the Bible. In fact, Jesus even affirms it.

689
00:37:02,469 --> 00:37:03,820
Speaker 3: Pilate said to him, don't you know, I have the

690
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,060
Speaker 3: authority to kill you. And Jesus didn't say, no, you don't.

691
00:37:07,219 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 3: He said, yeah, but you get that authority from above.

692
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 3: And Paul talks about Romans 13, that the ruler doesn't

693
00:37:15,780 --> 00:37:17,940
Speaker 3: bear the sword for nothing. The sword is a reference

694
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:25,110
Speaker 3: to capital punishment. Um, It's just, and it shows the

695
00:37:25,170 --> 00:37:31,790
Speaker 3: value of innocent human life, and it also deters future

696
00:37:32,350 --> 00:37:37,060
Speaker 3: acts of murder. So I sure hope Tyler Robinson repents.

697
00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: I know for me, I remember where I was when

698
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,580
Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk got shot. I was sitting on my couch

699
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,259
Speaker 2: at Biola, and I remember looking at myself when I

700
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 2: saw the news, and I was like, Scotty, what are

701
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: you doing with your life?

702
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: Like kind of like what you were talking about earlier.

703
00:37:49,739 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 2: Like I was like, Scotty, God has given you so

704
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,859
Speaker 2: many gifts, but you are just squandering them.

705
00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: You're the God of your own life.

706
00:37:54,940 --> 00:37:57,940
Speaker 2: Like I was addicted to porn, living my life on

707
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: my own terms. And it was Charlie's death that ultimately

708
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: got me to look within and be like, I want

709
00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:05,650
Speaker 2: to trust God with these gifts that he's given me,

710
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,859
Speaker 2: but I'm literally squandering them. And I just, that's super

711
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: powerful that you would say that. I've thought about what

712
00:38:10,260 --> 00:38:12,500
Speaker 2: I would say to Tyler Robinson if I sat across from,

713
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:13,980
Speaker 2: I literally think I would tell him the story just

714
00:38:14,020 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: of Joseph and what Joseph said to his brothers, like

715
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: what you intended for evil God can use for good.

716
00:38:19,420 --> 00:38:22,950
Speaker 2: And I've seen that, especially in my generation, so many people,

717
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,989
Speaker 2: Charlie completely and utterly affected. And I know that's what

718
00:38:26,030 --> 00:38:27,529
Speaker 2: I would want to share with him.

719
00:38:28,050 --> 00:38:30,190
Speaker 3: Well, what you just said, I've had several people say

720
00:38:30,230 --> 00:38:32,770
Speaker 3: that to me. I was doing nothing with my life.

721
00:38:32,810 --> 00:38:34,609
Speaker 3: And when Charlie Kirk was murdered, I said, I need

722
00:38:34,650 --> 00:38:39,550
Speaker 3: to get in the game, right? I need to do something.

723
00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:42,509
Speaker 3: Whatever my gift is, I got to find it and

724
00:38:42,650 --> 00:38:45,290
Speaker 3: use it for the Lord. You know, it was such

725
00:38:45,330 --> 00:38:49,420
Speaker 3: a tragedy that a 31 year old Christian who was

726
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 3: making such a difference for the Lord and for the

727
00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: country was murdered. But you know, it's an equally bad

728
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,459
Speaker 3: tragedy living 80 years and doing nothing for the Lord.

729
00:38:58,820 --> 00:39:02,110
Speaker 3: And so many people do that. They're just taking up space.

730
00:39:02,650 --> 00:39:06,450
Speaker 3: It's like Jesus looking at the fig tree, you know, Hey,

731
00:39:06,469 --> 00:39:09,290
Speaker 3: if you're not doing anything, why do you even exist?

732
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: So, I mean, we, Yeah, we've talked about a lot

733
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,140
Speaker 2: in the book of Acts, like why does God allow suffering?

734
00:39:18,180 --> 00:39:19,980
Speaker 2: Why did God allow Charlie Kirk to get killed? And

735
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,950
Speaker 2: we talked about that story with Peter when Peter or

736
00:39:23,010 --> 00:39:25,690
Speaker 2: James is murdered or he's martyred and then Peter is

737
00:39:25,730 --> 00:39:27,450
Speaker 2: in jail. He gets put in jail by Herod and

738
00:39:27,469 --> 00:39:29,210
Speaker 2: then the angel comes and saves him. But we asked

739
00:39:29,230 --> 00:39:31,330
Speaker 2: the question, like, why did God allow James to die?

740
00:39:31,350 --> 00:39:32,770
Speaker 2: But I think when you look at the story and

741
00:39:32,810 --> 00:39:35,350
Speaker 2: its context that, you know, that finally, it took James

742
00:39:35,410 --> 00:39:38,350
Speaker 2: dying for the disciples to finally listen and to finally

743
00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:40,860
Speaker 2: take the gospel and spread it to all the nations,

744
00:39:40,910 --> 00:39:43,569
Speaker 2: not just in Jerusalem. And I've totally seen that with

745
00:39:43,590 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 2: Charlie's death. And that was the biggest factor in my

746
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: life to be like, I got to get off the couch,

747
00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:49,610
Speaker 2: like I am just not living my life, and I

748
00:39:49,630 --> 00:39:50,890
Speaker 2: don't even know what God's will is for my life.

749
00:39:50,930 --> 00:39:51,770
Speaker 1: I don't want to find that out.

750
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,580
Speaker 4: Frank, let me ask you this. When we first met,

751
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 4: I was in my upper 20s. I was doing the

752
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,779
Speaker 4: math a little bit, which means I was not that

753
00:39:59,860 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 4: much older than Scotty is right now. And just as

754
00:40:03,380 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 4: my dad just has encouraged you along the way, including

755
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,570
Speaker 4: the time where he said, hey, talk to this guy,

756
00:40:11,630 --> 00:40:15,110
Speaker 4: you've encouraged me. What's your advice? I guess I'm asking

757
00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 4: somewhat selfishly as a father, seeing my son come up

758
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 4: with skills, with motivation, with a desire to be an apologist.

759
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,779
Speaker 4: What's your encouragement to young apologists and young evangelists and

760
00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 4: really just young Christians today who want to make a

761
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 4: difference for the gospel?

762
00:40:32,110 --> 00:40:34,230
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things is the same thing your

763
00:40:34,250 --> 00:40:36,110
Speaker 3: father told you when you were going through your period

764
00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:41,310
Speaker 3: of doubt, right? Like, son, that's great because your faith

765
00:40:41,350 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: can't be my faith. But just promise me one thing.

766
00:40:45,980 --> 00:40:47,940
Speaker 3: You're going to follow the truth wherever it leads. That's

767
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:48,620
Speaker 3: what he said, right?

768
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: That's right. Pretty much. Yeah, you got it.

769
00:40:52,980 --> 00:40:57,540
Speaker 3: So Chuck Smith said something years ago, too, that's very helpful.

770
00:40:57,620 --> 00:41:01,669
Speaker 3: If people are having doubts, don't let what you don't

771
00:41:01,750 --> 00:41:04,170
Speaker 3: know cause you to doubt what you do know.

772
00:41:04,190 --> 00:41:05,110
Speaker 1: That's great.

773
00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:08,370
Speaker 3: There's a lot of what we don't know, right? But

774
00:41:08,410 --> 00:41:12,819
Speaker 3: that doesn't change the fact of All the things we

775
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 3: do know about God, you know, people say, what about

776
00:41:14,820 --> 00:41:15,660
Speaker 3: the hiddenness of God?

777
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: Okay.

778
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,860
Speaker 3: That's a question we can ask, but the hiddenness of

779
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:24,660
Speaker 3: God doesn't affect the cosmological argument. Doesn't affect the fine

780
00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:27,410
Speaker 3: tuning of the universe. Doesn't affect the DNA we find

781
00:41:27,469 --> 00:41:30,850
Speaker 3: in life, which comes from a programmer. Doesn't affect the

782
00:41:30,969 --> 00:41:34,250
Speaker 3: intricacies of life that requires a designer. doesn't affect the

783
00:41:34,330 --> 00:41:36,850
Speaker 3: moral law, doesn't affect that we have reason and laws

784
00:41:36,890 --> 00:41:39,410
Speaker 3: of logic and laws of math and Old Testament prophecy

785
00:41:39,469 --> 00:41:43,310
Speaker 3: and New Testament miracles. It doesn't affect any of that, right?

786
00:41:44,310 --> 00:41:46,710
Speaker 3: So don't let what you don't know cause you to

787
00:41:46,750 --> 00:41:49,549
Speaker 3: doubt what you do know. And then finally, I would

788
00:41:49,630 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 3: say for each individual is that you have some gifting.

789
00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:56,819
Speaker 3: I agree with Greg Kokel on this. I always hear

790
00:41:56,860 --> 00:41:58,660
Speaker 3: people say, I was called to do this. I was

791
00:41:58,700 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 3: called to do that. I don't like that language. The

792
00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:04,670
Speaker 3: reason being, is unless you're the apostle Paul on the

793
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:09,010
Speaker 3: road to Damascus, you weren't called, okay? You were gifted

794
00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:12,969
Speaker 3: with certain qualities, certain gifts that you have that you

795
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:16,890
Speaker 3: can use for the body of Christ. So get plugged

796
00:42:16,989 --> 00:42:18,950
Speaker 3: in and use your gift, whatever that is. And there

797
00:42:18,969 --> 00:42:21,950
Speaker 3: are several gifts that the New Testament talks about. Maybe

798
00:42:21,969 --> 00:42:23,010
Speaker 3: you have the gift of teaching.

799
00:42:23,050 --> 00:42:23,589
Speaker 1: Maybe you don't.

800
00:42:23,610 --> 00:42:25,529
Speaker 3: Maybe you have the gift of hospitality, or maybe you

801
00:42:25,550 --> 00:42:29,230
Speaker 3: have the gift of helps, or you have the, you know,

802
00:42:29,650 --> 00:42:32,820
Speaker 3: several other gifts that you could use for the kingdom,

803
00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:38,420
Speaker 3: gift of service, whatever it is, join a church, join

804
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,940
Speaker 3: a small group and do something to move the kingdom forward.

805
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 3: You know, I think it was Aquinas who said, God

806
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:50,009
Speaker 3: gives us the dignity of causality that God could do

807
00:42:50,050 --> 00:42:52,950
Speaker 3: everything himself if he wanted to, but then what would

808
00:42:52,969 --> 00:42:53,570
Speaker 3: we be doing?

809
00:42:53,989 --> 00:42:54,209
Speaker 4: Right?

810
00:42:54,330 --> 00:42:55,430
Speaker 1: I mean, he gives us.

811
00:42:55,390 --> 00:42:58,890
Speaker 3: The ability to affect time and eternity and, And that's

812
00:42:58,930 --> 00:43:01,009
Speaker 3: a great gift that too often, as Scotty was saying,

813
00:43:01,050 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 3: we squander. You know, we sit around wasting our time

814
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 3: doing nothing. I mean, one day we're all going to,

815
00:43:10,060 --> 00:43:11,740
Speaker 3: if we're saved, we're all going to get to heaven.

816
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,739
Speaker 3: And I don't want to be sitting around with Moses

817
00:43:15,140 --> 00:43:20,390
Speaker 3: and David and the Apostle Paul and John and Peter,

818
00:43:20,989 --> 00:43:23,350
Speaker 3: and they're reminiscing about what they did for the Lord.

819
00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:24,189
Speaker 1: What am I going to say?

820
00:43:24,210 --> 00:43:25,150
Speaker 3: Right?

821
00:43:25,210 --> 00:43:25,470
Speaker 1: Right.

822
00:43:26,570 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 3: Oh, I was too scared to put something on Facebook.

823
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,259
Speaker 3: I was afraid I was going to be unfriended. I mean,

824
00:43:34,780 --> 00:43:39,379
Speaker 3: get in the game. If Christians really were salt and light,

825
00:43:39,420 --> 00:43:41,339
Speaker 3: many of the problems we see in our culture, much

826
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:47,530
Speaker 3: of the war on reality would be far, far less

827
00:43:47,570 --> 00:43:48,210
Speaker 3: than it is now.

828
00:43:49,050 --> 00:43:50,250
Speaker 4: I got one more for you, then I'll come back

829
00:43:50,270 --> 00:43:52,990
Speaker 4: to you, Scotty. I don't have a lot of regrets, Frank.

830
00:43:53,070 --> 00:43:53,730
Speaker 1: I just don't.

831
00:43:53,770 --> 00:43:56,170
Speaker 4: I've made mistakes and done stupid stuff and learned from it.

832
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 4: But in part, I think life is making mistakes and

833
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,190
Speaker 4: learning from it. And, you know, my dad's taught me

834
00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:05,390
Speaker 4: don't live in the past, like keep moving forward. But

835
00:44:05,450 --> 00:44:07,509
Speaker 4: turning 50 this year, I started thinking about what would

836
00:44:07,530 --> 00:44:10,500
Speaker 4: I tell my younger self? And I honestly kind of

837
00:44:10,540 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 4: wish I could take a third of the books that

838
00:44:13,020 --> 00:44:16,350
Speaker 4: I read and just throw them in the flames. and

839
00:44:16,410 --> 00:44:20,810
Speaker 4: have read Romans 50 more times, Ezekiel 50 more times.

840
00:44:21,250 --> 00:44:22,950
Speaker 4: But you know what? There's a lot of books I read,

841
00:44:22,969 --> 00:44:26,509
Speaker 4: and I really, I think I know the scriptures well

842
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:29,350
Speaker 4: and read it like crazy, but I would just toss

843
00:44:29,410 --> 00:44:31,260
Speaker 4: a third of the books that I thought were important

844
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,420
Speaker 4: that just pale in comparison to the scriptures and knowing

845
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,660
Speaker 4: and owning the scriptures. Do you have any regrets? What

846
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 4: would you tell your younger self?

847
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:41,830
Speaker 1: No, it's very similar.

848
00:44:41,850 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 3: In fact, I was just in Oxford a couple of

849
00:44:43,780 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 3: weeks ago and I got to interview John Lennox.

850
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: Amazing.

851
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 3: We're going to post on our YouTube channel here soon.

852
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: I asked him that kind of same question. You know, John,

853
00:44:52,739 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 3: you've got almost 83 years of experience. What would you

854
00:44:56,219 --> 00:44:58,620
Speaker 3: tell the younger people here? And he basically said, get

855
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,230
Speaker 3: into the word more. Wow.

856
00:45:00,250 --> 00:45:02,509
Speaker 1: Billy Graham actually said that toward the end of his life.

857
00:45:03,670 --> 00:45:04,030
Speaker 3: Really?

858
00:45:04,210 --> 00:45:04,290
Speaker 4: Yeah.

859
00:45:04,310 --> 00:45:04,569
Speaker 3: Wow. So.

860
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,700
Speaker 3: Because if it is God's word, and we of course

861
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:16,270
Speaker 3: all believe it is, that's the most important thing we

862
00:45:16,310 --> 00:45:21,250
Speaker 3: can know and share with others. And as I mentioned earlier,

863
00:45:21,270 --> 00:45:25,109
Speaker 3: from an apologetics perspective, once you see how integrated the

864
00:45:25,150 --> 00:45:29,110
Speaker 3: scriptures are, it's really hard to deny there's a divine

865
00:45:29,150 --> 00:45:31,589
Speaker 3: hand behind them. Amen.

866
00:45:31,650 --> 00:45:33,850
Speaker 4: And by the way, let me jump in here. And

867
00:45:33,890 --> 00:45:37,250
Speaker 4: there's a difference between some apologist telling you that and going,

868
00:45:37,410 --> 00:45:42,069
Speaker 4: oh yeah, I agree, and discovering it yourself. So when

869
00:45:42,110 --> 00:45:45,370
Speaker 4: I read Acts, I'm like, where is grace in Acts?

870
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 4: And of course, in Acts 16, 31, believe in the

871
00:45:48,739 --> 00:45:52,180
Speaker 4: Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. I'm reading

872
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 4: Hebrews going, okay, where's the heart of grace? Hebrews 4,

873
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,700
Speaker 4: those who enter into his rest are those who believe.

874
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,510
Speaker 4: Of course, in John, you know, it's all about believing

875
00:46:04,550 --> 00:46:05,669
Speaker 4: and having eternal life.

876
00:46:05,710 --> 00:46:07,049
Speaker 1: And what work must you do?

877
00:46:07,130 --> 00:46:12,850
Speaker 4: John 6, 29, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. I

878
00:46:12,910 --> 00:46:16,710
Speaker 4: could keep going, but there's a certain reward and beauty

879
00:46:16,730 --> 00:46:20,219
Speaker 4: that comes from rather than reading somebody else's apologetics book,

880
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,259
Speaker 4: discovering it yourself, then you really own it. And I

881
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 4: think that's what comes from studying the scriptures and apologetics books.

882
00:46:30,130 --> 00:46:31,810
Speaker 2: So I'm sure you get asked all the time, what's

883
00:46:31,830 --> 00:46:33,950
Speaker 2: your favorite argument for God? All those types of questions.

884
00:46:34,210 --> 00:46:35,810
Speaker 2: I would like to ask you, talking about the Bible,

885
00:46:35,969 --> 00:46:39,270
Speaker 2: how does Dr. Frank Turek read the Bible daily? Do

886
00:46:39,450 --> 00:46:40,770
Speaker 2: you think there's one way to do it?

887
00:46:41,050 --> 00:46:42,090
Speaker 1: How do you read the Bible?

888
00:46:42,590 --> 00:46:45,210
Speaker 3: No, because I'll be honest with you, I'm not a

889
00:46:45,270 --> 00:46:46,590
Speaker 3: systematic kind of reader.

890
00:46:46,690 --> 00:46:48,990
Speaker 1: I kind of read things that I need to know

891
00:46:49,050 --> 00:46:51,700
Speaker 1: more about. So, you know.

892
00:46:53,890 --> 00:46:56,290
Speaker 3: What I tend to do is I usually read Proverbs

893
00:46:56,370 --> 00:46:59,890
Speaker 3: as often as I can, especially like today's the 27th.

894
00:47:00,110 --> 00:47:02,430
Speaker 1: So I read Proverbs 27. That's one of the things

895
00:47:02,489 --> 00:47:02,810
Speaker 1: I do.

896
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:06,860
Speaker 3: And then I might just say, I'm going to read Mark,

897
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,219
Speaker 3: you know, and I'm just going to go through that

898
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:12,260
Speaker 3: and then I'll pick another book. Or if there's something

899
00:47:13,060 --> 00:47:16,259
Speaker 3: that I think I need to be better at, especially

900
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 3: in understanding the scripture, so I could be a better teacher,

901
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:22,710
Speaker 3: then I'm going to, you know, read a certain section

902
00:47:22,750 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 3: or investigate a certain thing. To be honest with you,

903
00:47:25,910 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 3: I'm not a devotional reader. I just, that doesn't, that

904
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,779
Speaker 3: doesn't edify me. I'm not that kind. I'm not that

905
00:47:34,820 --> 00:47:37,570
Speaker 3: kind of person. I'm more analytical when it comes to it.

906
00:47:37,580 --> 00:47:42,020
Speaker 3: I'm like trying to uncover insights to this from the

907
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 3: scriptures that I can apply. Although if I'm feeling, if

908
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,910
Speaker 3: I do feel kind of under attack or depressed, I

909
00:47:51,930 --> 00:47:56,860
Speaker 3: think the Psalms are very good. Psalms are cathartic, right?

910
00:47:58,940 --> 00:48:01,620
Speaker 3: But I'm not a, I'm not a devotional kind of reader.

911
00:48:01,820 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 3: I'm a, I'm a more investigative kind of reader. I'm

912
00:48:04,260 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 3: kind of trying to make connections and wow, look at this,

913
00:48:07,140 --> 00:48:09,900
Speaker 3: you know, and that's what excites me about it.

914
00:48:10,739 --> 00:48:14,830
Speaker 4: Why do you think some leaders we've seen apologists, we've

915
00:48:14,870 --> 00:48:20,170
Speaker 4: seen musicians, we've seen pastors just fail morally and, or

916
00:48:20,250 --> 00:48:24,069
Speaker 4: theologically fade away. And especially at this stage in my life,

917
00:48:24,210 --> 00:48:28,569
Speaker 4: I'm just not that surprised anymore. I'm saddened and it's

918
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,460
Speaker 4: heartbreaking every time. But why do you think that happens?

919
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,900
Speaker 4: And what things can somebody build into their life to

920
00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:41,529
Speaker 4: best avoid those kinds of things if possible?

921
00:48:42,410 --> 00:48:42,950
Speaker 1: That's easy.

922
00:48:43,489 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 3: The Modesto Manifesto, the Billy Graham manifesto, pledge they made

923
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 3: to one another when they were in Modesto, California in

924
00:48:50,739 --> 00:48:53,780
Speaker 3: the late forties, they saw that there was three things

925
00:48:53,820 --> 00:48:57,390
Speaker 3: that could derail them, sex, money, or power. And so

926
00:48:57,469 --> 00:49:00,569
Speaker 3: they made a pact between themselves that in order to

927
00:49:00,650 --> 00:49:05,129
Speaker 3: avoid those temptations, like for example, they would make sure

928
00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:07,390
Speaker 3: they were never alone in the presence of another woman,

929
00:49:07,450 --> 00:49:12,610
Speaker 3: not their wife. Um, because they didn't even want the

930
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:17,899
Speaker 3: appearance of impropriety. Uh, Today, we call that the Mike

931
00:49:17,980 --> 00:49:19,810
Speaker 3: Pence rule. No, that's the Billy Graham rule.

932
00:49:20,010 --> 00:49:20,509
Speaker 4: That's right.

933
00:49:21,770 --> 00:49:23,770
Speaker 3: Billy Graham, I mean, there were times when they'd send

934
00:49:24,430 --> 00:49:26,549
Speaker 3: somebody up to his hotel room before he got there,

935
00:49:26,790 --> 00:49:29,750
Speaker 3: and there were times they found a prostitute in the

936
00:49:29,790 --> 00:49:30,650
Speaker 3: room with a.

937
00:49:30,630 --> 00:49:32,110
Speaker 1: Photographer hiding in the closet.

938
00:49:32,650 --> 00:49:35,489
Speaker 4: That happened to my dad, and I know what university

939
00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:37,250
Speaker 4: it was, and I will not mention it here, as

940
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:38,090
Speaker 4: tempting as it is.

941
00:49:38,110 --> 00:49:39,910
Speaker 3: You've got to take those precautions. People are going to

942
00:49:39,930 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 3: try and set you up. Right. And they would never

943
00:49:43,460 --> 00:49:46,420
Speaker 3: handle the money because that that's a temptation and they

944
00:49:46,460 --> 00:49:48,500
Speaker 3: would never inflate their numbers. You know, at a crusade,

945
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 3: they would if the cops said there were 10,000 people there,

946
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 3: that's what they said. Right. They didn't want to do

947
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,140
Speaker 3: anything that would cause them to bring disrepute on Christ's

948
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,219
Speaker 3: name or their own ministry. And so those are the

949
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 3: three temptations we all have now. They're just exacerbated by

950
00:50:03,780 --> 00:50:07,020
Speaker 3: the fact that they're easy to get now on your iPhone.

951
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:08,700
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. Right.

952
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 3: And so you need accountability. You need people around you.

953
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,779
Speaker 3: But I will also say this, that for every one

954
00:50:15,820 --> 00:50:19,900
Speaker 3: pastor that falls, there's a thousand of them that don't. Amen.

955
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 4: I'm so glad you brought that up.

956
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:22,020
Speaker 1: Keep going.

957
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,860
Speaker 3: And the reason that you hear about these things is

958
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,730
Speaker 3: because the media only covers Christianity for two things. Number one,

959
00:50:34,510 --> 00:50:38,460
Speaker 3: did a Christian fall? Number two, how do Christians vote?

960
00:50:39,739 --> 00:50:43,509
Speaker 3: That's all they care about. They're never going to cover

961
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:49,069
Speaker 3: Samaritan's Purse going on over to Venezuela and serving the

962
00:50:49,110 --> 00:50:52,890
Speaker 3: earthquake victims down there or Tibet or wherever they go. No,

963
00:50:53,390 --> 00:50:56,770
Speaker 3: they're not going to talk about hospitals or orphanages. They're

964
00:50:56,810 --> 00:50:58,830
Speaker 3: not going to talk about all the good that's done,

965
00:50:58,890 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 3: all the billions of dollars that are given every year

966
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 3: by Christians. No, they're only going to talk about When

967
00:51:04,980 --> 00:51:07,930
Speaker 3: somebody prominent falls, look at the hypocrite he is. And

968
00:51:07,969 --> 00:51:11,270
Speaker 3: number two, man, these Christians, we got to get them

969
00:51:11,330 --> 00:51:13,790
Speaker 3: out of public life because they keep voting the wrong way.

970
00:51:14,650 --> 00:51:14,890
Speaker 4: Right.

971
00:51:15,270 --> 00:51:18,109
Speaker 1: I mean, that's, that's pretty, it's, it's, it's a war

972
00:51:18,170 --> 00:51:18,730
Speaker 1: on reality.

973
00:51:19,290 --> 00:51:24,130
Speaker 3: You know, that to diametrically opposed worldview to Christianity in

974
00:51:24,170 --> 00:51:24,850
Speaker 3: many cases.

975
00:51:25,989 --> 00:51:26,310
Speaker 1: And so.

976
00:51:28,290 --> 00:51:30,590
Speaker 3: I think there's a good way of dealing with the

977
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:33,819
Speaker 3: hypocrisy objection. When people call you a hypocrite, I think

978
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,980
Speaker 3: what you ought to say is, you know, you're right.

979
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 3: So what does that prove? If you realize you've just

980
00:51:41,300 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 3: given evidence for God, what do you mean? Well, you're

981
00:51:44,580 --> 00:51:47,860
Speaker 3: implying hypocrisy is wrong. How can anything be wrong if

982
00:51:47,890 --> 00:51:51,569
Speaker 3: there's no God? That's just your opinion. And by the way,

983
00:51:51,610 --> 00:51:54,850
Speaker 3: do you realize that everyone's a hypocrite? Yeah, sure, Christians

984
00:51:54,890 --> 00:51:56,070
Speaker 3: are hypocrites. So are Muslims.

985
00:51:56,090 --> 00:51:56,790
Speaker 1: So are Jews.

986
00:51:56,810 --> 00:51:59,790
Speaker 3: So are atheists. So are agnostics. So are New Agers.

987
00:51:59,810 --> 00:52:02,410
Speaker 3: They're all hypocrites. People don't even live up to their

988
00:52:02,469 --> 00:52:05,469
Speaker 3: own standards, much less the standards of Jesus. That's why

989
00:52:05,489 --> 00:52:08,299
Speaker 3: we all need a savior. And by the way, when

990
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:12,460
Speaker 3: somebody plays Beethoven poorly, who do you blame? You don't

991
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:17,500
Speaker 3: blame Beethoven. Look, so you blame the player, right? So

992
00:52:17,540 --> 00:52:21,390
Speaker 3: just because I'm not true and beautiful doesn't mean Jesus

993
00:52:21,489 --> 00:52:22,470
Speaker 3: isn't true and beautiful.

994
00:52:23,219 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 1: You know, newsflash, Christianity is not Christians. It's Jesus.

995
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 3: Keep your eyes on Jesus. And if we weren't hypocrites,

996
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,620
Speaker 3: we wouldn't need a savior. And this is why when

997
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,259
Speaker 3: people say I can't go to church because there's too

998
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 3: many hypocrites down there, I always say.

999
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:38,780
Speaker 1: Come on down, pal. We got room for one more.

1000
00:52:40,930 --> 00:52:42,710
Speaker 3: In fact, saying you can't go to church because there's

1001
00:52:42,730 --> 00:52:44,710
Speaker 3: too many hypocrites down there is like saying I can't

1002
00:52:44,730 --> 00:52:46,430
Speaker 3: go to the gym because there's too many out of

1003
00:52:46,489 --> 00:52:49,370
Speaker 3: shape people down there. You're like, well, that's one of

1004
00:52:49,390 --> 00:52:52,490
Speaker 3: the reasons they're there. They're trying to get into shape.

1005
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 3: And one of the reasons you go to church, not

1006
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,049
Speaker 3: the only reason, but one of the reasons is to

1007
00:52:57,070 --> 00:52:58,050
Speaker 3: get into moral shape.

1008
00:52:59,070 --> 00:53:03,220
Speaker 1: And so these objections just don't work. They prove the opposite, actually.

1009
00:53:04,380 --> 00:53:06,020
Speaker 2: So as you're preparing to go on a big college

1010
00:53:06,100 --> 00:53:08,020
Speaker 2: tour or campus tour this year, what are some of

1011
00:53:08,060 --> 00:53:10,570
Speaker 2: the biggest questions that you're expecting to face that have

1012
00:53:10,610 --> 00:53:12,660
Speaker 2: maybe shifted in the last couple of years that you're like,

1013
00:53:12,700 --> 00:53:14,770
Speaker 2: this is definitely going to be asked every single college

1014
00:53:14,810 --> 00:53:15,060
Speaker 2: I go to?

1015
00:53:15,110 --> 00:53:17,810
Speaker 4: Or even the past 10, 20 years, how have you

1016
00:53:17,850 --> 00:53:19,030
Speaker 4: seen these questions shift?

1017
00:53:19,310 --> 00:53:22,410
Speaker 3: Well, 20 years ago in the heyday of the new atheists,

1018
00:53:22,469 --> 00:53:27,609
Speaker 3: we'd get pushback on arguments for God from, say, science, cosmological, teleological.

1019
00:53:27,650 --> 00:53:30,650
Speaker 3: We'd get pushback. We don't get that much anymore. You

1020
00:53:30,670 --> 00:53:33,129
Speaker 3: probably don't either, Sean. You're doing some colleges now as well.

1021
00:53:33,690 --> 00:53:38,710
Speaker 3: The top three objections to Christianity today are morality, morality,

1022
00:53:38,830 --> 00:53:44,110
Speaker 3: and morality. You're always going to get questions on LGBTQ issues.

1023
00:53:44,950 --> 00:53:47,319
Speaker 3: You're going to get questions on, you know, the God

1024
00:53:47,340 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 3: of the Old Testament is the God of the Old

1025
00:53:48,940 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 3: Testament evil. What about slavery? What about, you know, killing

1026
00:53:52,180 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 3: the Canaanites, all that kind of thing? Why doesn't a

1027
00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:57,660
Speaker 3: God allow me to sleep with whomever I want? There

1028
00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:00,490
Speaker 3: are not as much questions. They're not as much concerned

1029
00:54:00,550 --> 00:54:04,250
Speaker 3: as is Christianity true. They're more concerned with is Christianity good,

1030
00:54:04,290 --> 00:54:08,819
Speaker 3: according to their definition of good, right? And today you

1031
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:15,260
Speaker 3: have to understand the sort of spirit of the day.

1032
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,060
Speaker 3: And in the book, The War on Reality, we cover

1033
00:54:19,100 --> 00:54:21,259
Speaker 3: it in chapter 10. The spirit of the day is

1034
00:54:21,300 --> 00:54:24,350
Speaker 3: the cultural Marxist view that if you have certain qualities,

1035
00:54:24,370 --> 00:54:29,390
Speaker 3: you're automatically considered an oppressor. And if you have other qualities,

1036
00:54:29,410 --> 00:54:34,250
Speaker 3: you're automatically considered oppressed, regardless of what your own personal

1037
00:54:34,290 --> 00:54:38,950
Speaker 3: behavior is. Your own personal behavior could be as wonderful as, say,

1038
00:54:38,989 --> 00:54:44,220
Speaker 3: a Mother Teresa. But if you're somebody, according to them,

1039
00:54:44,660 --> 00:54:51,060
Speaker 3: who is, say, a white, heterosexual Christian man who.

1040
00:54:51,020 --> 00:54:52,740
Speaker 1: Is a citizen of the United States.

1041
00:54:53,260 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 3: you're automatically, by this theology, and it is a theology,

1042
00:54:57,380 --> 00:55:01,500
Speaker 3: you're automatically considered an oppressor. On the other hand, if

1043
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 3: you're a person of color, if you're LGBTQ, if you're

1044
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:11,420
Speaker 3: a non-citizen, if you're a non-Christian, you're automatically considered oppressed,

1045
00:55:11,620 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 3: regardless of your personal behavior. And this is why, by

1046
00:55:17,180 --> 00:55:21,970
Speaker 3: the way, you get some of these head scratchers like

1047
00:55:22,110 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 3: Gays for Gaza.

1048
00:55:23,989 --> 00:55:25,310
Speaker 1: You go, wait a minute.

1049
00:55:26,270 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 3: If you're LGBTQ and you go over to Gaza, you're

1050
00:55:28,739 --> 00:55:33,760
Speaker 3: going to be murdered. Why are you aligning with Islamists

1051
00:55:34,340 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 3: who would kill you? Because they're both considered on the

1052
00:55:39,180 --> 00:55:42,259
Speaker 3: oppressed side of the scale, and the enemy of my

1053
00:55:42,340 --> 00:55:44,430
Speaker 3: enemy is my friend. I mean, if you really look

1054
00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:50,730
Speaker 3: at this, the ultimate enemy is Christianity. Everything Christian, properly understood,

1055
00:55:50,890 --> 00:55:56,780
Speaker 3: is opposed by the culture. And so the more aspects

1056
00:55:57,020 --> 00:56:02,760
Speaker 3: of reality that you have that are considered oppressed aspects

1057
00:56:02,820 --> 00:56:07,970
Speaker 3: or suppressed, I should say oppressed characteristics, you are somebody

1058
00:56:07,989 --> 00:56:10,310
Speaker 3: that should be heard. On the other hand, if you're

1059
00:56:10,350 --> 00:56:14,890
Speaker 3: considered an oppressor, you have these oppressor qualifications. You're automatically

1060
00:56:14,950 --> 00:56:18,469
Speaker 3: someone who should not be heard and maybe even violently

1061
00:56:18,530 --> 00:56:20,710
Speaker 3: put down. I mean, if you look at what happened

1062
00:56:20,730 --> 00:56:23,820
Speaker 3: to Charlie in He had every one of those characteristics.

1063
00:56:23,860 --> 00:56:26,940
Speaker 3: He was a white, Christian, heterosexual male who was a

1064
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 3: citizen of the United States. And according to cultural Marxism,

1065
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:35,739
Speaker 3: that's an oppressor. And this is why Tyler Robinson said, oh,

1066
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 3: there's some things that can't be negotiated away. I know

1067
00:56:40,219 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 3: this isn't true of everyone, but the data shows this.

1068
00:56:44,580 --> 00:56:49,779
Speaker 3: Three percent of very conservative people think it's okay to

1069
00:56:49,820 --> 00:56:56,070
Speaker 3: sometimes use violence to advance a political viewpoint. 25% of

1070
00:56:56,489 --> 00:57:00,160
Speaker 3: very liberal people think it's sometimes okay to use violence

1071
00:57:00,900 --> 00:57:04,300
Speaker 3: to advance a political viewpoint. In other words, very liberal

1072
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 3: people are more than eight times more likely to use

1073
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:13,200
Speaker 3: violence to advance their political views than very conservative people.

1074
00:57:13,890 --> 00:57:17,870
Speaker 3: We saw it on 9-10 last year. Now, again, this

1075
00:57:17,930 --> 00:57:22,250
Speaker 3: is still a minority, but it's a significant minority. and

1076
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:24,990
Speaker 3: we as Christians have to be aware of this. If

1077
00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:28,230
Speaker 3: we're going to reach this generation, we have to see

1078
00:57:28,270 --> 00:57:30,790
Speaker 3: what the spirit of the age is. And right now,

1079
00:57:30,830 --> 00:57:33,490
Speaker 3: the spirit of the age is to put people in these,

1080
00:57:33,570 --> 00:57:36,610
Speaker 3: many of these are non-moral categories, right? They're saying your

1081
00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 3: skin color matters. They're saying your sex matters as to

1082
00:57:40,390 --> 00:57:41,900
Speaker 3: how we're going to treat you, whether we think you're

1083
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 3: an oppressor or oppressed. What country you're from matters, right?

1084
00:57:49,100 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 3: And Even how much money you make matters. If you're

1085
00:57:53,460 --> 00:57:56,060
Speaker 3: above middle class, automatically you're considered an oppressor.

1086
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: And this, of course, comes from Karl Marx.

1087
00:58:01,250 --> 00:58:07,270
Speaker 3: And it's exactly opposite the Bible, which says there's no partiality.

1088
00:58:08,350 --> 00:58:13,590
Speaker 3: Treat everyone fairly. Don't favor the rich or disfavor the poor.

1089
00:58:13,690 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 3: Treat everybody fairly. It goes completely against Martin Luther King,

1090
00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:19,630
Speaker 3: who said, I have a dream that my four children

1091
00:58:19,690 --> 00:58:21,820
Speaker 3: will not be judged by the color of their skin,

1092
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:24,140
Speaker 3: by the content of their character. That's all been flipped

1093
00:58:24,340 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 3: around now. And this is where, of course, DEI comes from.

1094
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 3: It comes from this cultural Marxist viewpoint. And Christians need

1095
00:58:35,180 --> 00:58:38,310
Speaker 3: to know about it if they're going to make a

1096
00:58:38,350 --> 00:58:39,370
Speaker 3: difference in this culture.

1097
00:58:39,990 --> 00:58:41,950
Speaker 4: There was a study in the Wall Street Journal this

1098
00:58:42,170 --> 00:58:48,020
Speaker 4: week that reported one in six Americans say it's morally okay–

1099
00:58:48,410 --> 00:58:55,040
Speaker 4: for Luigi Mangione to assassinate the healthcare CEO. Of those

1100
00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 4: under 30, 22% said the assassination of Charlie Kirk was justified. Now,

1101
00:59:04,100 --> 00:59:08,470
Speaker 4: this article did not break it down in terms of left, right, conservative, liberal.

1102
00:59:08,610 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 4: I wish it had. but one in five, Frank, said

1103
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 4: that it is justified, which is crazy.

1104
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: 22%, you said?

1105
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:18,580
Speaker 3: 22%.

1106
00:59:18,580 --> 00:59:20,620
Speaker 4: I can show you the articles in the Wall Street Journal.

1107
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,020
Speaker 4: It was a commentary opinion piece. 22% of those under

1108
00:59:24,020 --> 00:59:27,470
Speaker 4: 30 said, say it was morally justified.

1109
00:59:27,550 --> 00:59:29,710
Speaker 1: Well, I highly doubt any of those were conservatives.

1110
00:59:29,870 --> 00:59:30,130
Speaker 3: Right.

1111
00:59:30,570 --> 00:59:33,030
Speaker 1: That's who Charlie agreed with, obviously. Yeah.

1112
00:59:34,010 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 3: But Charlie wasn't totalitarian. Charlie was somebody who just wanted

1113
00:59:39,620 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 3: to have a conversation. And that's part of the problem.

1114
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 3: He used to say when the dialogue ends, the violence begins.

1115
00:59:48,780 --> 00:59:52,690
Speaker 3: And I think so much of this too, Sean and Scotty,

1116
00:59:52,870 --> 00:59:57,060
Speaker 3: is driven by The fact that we don't teach logic anymore.

1117
00:59:58,520 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: Because people are.

1118
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 3: Taken by deceptive practices and logical fallacies like the hasty

1119
01:00:07,220 --> 01:00:12,240
Speaker 3: generalization fallacy. In fact, let me give you two quick

1120
01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 3: examples of this. Back last winter when Tim Waltz and

1121
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 3: Governor Fry up there in Minneapolis let out criminals who

1122
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,670
Speaker 3: happened to be illegal aliens rather than hand them over

1123
01:00:25,710 --> 01:00:28,150
Speaker 3: to ice ice obviously had to go into the communities

1124
01:00:28,390 --> 01:00:31,350
Speaker 3: and track these folks down because they're dangerous and there

1125
01:00:31,370 --> 01:00:35,050
Speaker 3: were some confrontations that looked really bad on video and

1126
01:00:35,090 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 3: so people would see these 15 20 second clips out

1127
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 3: of context or they don't know the context and they

1128
01:00:41,100 --> 01:00:43,340
Speaker 3: would look at them and go wow these ice people

1129
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 3: are evil we need to abolish ice and we need

1130
01:00:46,580 --> 01:00:50,930
Speaker 3: to we need to defund the police now This is

1131
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:54,910
Speaker 3: called a hasty generalization because they're taking one anecdote and

1132
01:00:54,930 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 3: applying it to an entire group. This, in my day,

1133
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,900
Speaker 3: we used to call this prejudice, right? That you have

1134
01:01:01,020 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 3: one experience and you universalize that experience to an entire group.

1135
01:01:05,320 --> 01:01:08,460
Speaker 3: That's obviously illegitimate, but we don't teach logic anymore. So

1136
01:01:08,500 --> 01:01:11,010
Speaker 3: people don't understand that. How about from the other side

1137
01:01:11,030 --> 01:01:14,390
Speaker 3: of the political aisle? You just brought up that stat, Sean.

1138
01:01:14,990 --> 01:01:15,189
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1139
01:01:16,340 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 3: It would be illegitimate of me or you or any

1140
01:01:19,420 --> 01:01:23,540
Speaker 3: other conservative to say all trans people are violent because

1141
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:28,750
Speaker 3: we've seen several trans shooters recently. Because again, it would

1142
01:01:28,770 --> 01:01:32,290
Speaker 3: be a hasty generalization. Although the data does show that

1143
01:01:32,350 --> 01:01:36,410
Speaker 3: as a subgroup, people who identify as trans tend to

1144
01:01:36,450 --> 01:01:39,050
Speaker 3: be more violent than others, but it's still a tiny

1145
01:01:39,110 --> 01:01:42,430
Speaker 3: minority of that group. And so we have to be

1146
01:01:42,550 --> 01:01:47,340
Speaker 3: rational rather than emotional about When we get emotional and

1147
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:52,780
Speaker 3: prejudice people or smear people or slander people, we're not

1148
01:01:52,860 --> 01:01:56,030
Speaker 3: being Christian. We're not being reasonable. And what we cover

1149
01:01:56,090 --> 01:01:59,410
Speaker 3: in The War on Reality are some of these fallacies.

1150
01:01:59,590 --> 01:02:02,970
Speaker 3: And another fallacy, of course, is what's often used called

1151
01:02:03,010 --> 01:02:08,700
Speaker 3: linguistic theft. where people will describe evil in pleasant sounding terms,

1152
01:02:08,740 --> 01:02:11,270
Speaker 3: like abortion has become reproductive justice.

1153
01:02:11,450 --> 01:02:11,970
Speaker 1: Healthcare.

1154
01:02:12,330 --> 01:02:15,870
Speaker 3: Yeah, or healthcare, or the baby is now called a

1155
01:02:16,410 --> 01:02:22,270
Speaker 3: product of conception, right? But as we just saw in Massachusetts,

1156
01:02:22,290 --> 01:02:27,690
Speaker 3: you've got people applauding a law which allows the murder

1157
01:02:27,730 --> 01:02:30,030
Speaker 3: of babies up to the moment of birth. And there's

1158
01:02:30,090 --> 01:02:32,860
Speaker 3: no medical reason to ever kill a baby in the

1159
01:02:32,920 --> 01:02:38,010
Speaker 3: third trimester. If there's a problem, you can extract the

1160
01:02:38,050 --> 01:02:40,450
Speaker 3: baby through C-section if the mother has a problem, but

1161
01:02:40,510 --> 01:02:42,190
Speaker 3: you don't have to kill the baby to do that.

1162
01:02:42,930 --> 01:02:45,890
Speaker 3: And yet this governor up there signed this and people

1163
01:02:46,030 --> 01:02:46,990
Speaker 3: all applauded this.

1164
01:02:48,010 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: This is madness. It's barbarism. And where are the Christians?

1165
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 3: Well, they're hiding under their desk or congratulating themselves on

1166
01:02:55,460 --> 01:02:59,500
Speaker 3: how winsome they are, why people are being killed. This

1167
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:02,100
Speaker 3: is not the way. We have to be involved politically.

1168
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:04,490
Speaker 3: If we're not involved politically, I can tell you who is.

1169
01:03:04,700 --> 01:03:07,630
Speaker 3: Satan's involved politically, and this is the end result we get.

1170
01:03:09,190 --> 01:03:11,410
Speaker 4: Frank, Scottie and I could probably sit here and ask

1171
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:15,910
Speaker 4: you questions for hours, just curious about your life, your beliefs,

1172
01:03:15,950 --> 01:03:19,500
Speaker 4: your ministry, your family. We didn't even get to superheroes, Scotty.

1173
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 4: You wrote a book on superheroes. I was going to

1174
01:03:21,180 --> 01:03:24,100
Speaker 4: ask you your favorite movie, ask you questions about your

1175
01:03:24,140 --> 01:03:24,780
Speaker 4: favorite TV show.

1176
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 1: Or how the new Spider-Man was.

1177
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 4: The new Spider-Man.

1178
01:03:27,100 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: I've got the book Hollywood Heroes. It's out there. I know.

1179
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,010
Speaker 1: That's a fascinating, fascinating book.

1180
01:03:33,070 --> 01:03:35,550
Speaker 4: Loved it. Scotty and I are doing some stuff together.

1181
01:03:35,660 --> 01:03:38,870
Speaker 4: You did that with your son, Zach, as well. So

1182
01:03:39,670 --> 01:03:41,570
Speaker 4: good stuff, my friend. Thank you for coming on. The

1183
01:03:41,610 --> 01:03:45,150
Speaker 4: new book out is called The War on Reality. And

1184
01:03:45,170 --> 01:03:48,170
Speaker 4: I appreciate your team this fall is helping me on

1185
01:03:48,310 --> 01:03:51,290
Speaker 4: college campuses to get some footage and social media out there.

1186
01:03:51,390 --> 01:03:55,740
Speaker 4: So super appreciate the help. Always enjoy the conversation. Make

1187
01:03:55,780 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 4: sure you follow Frank and his ministry and make sure

1188
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 4: you hit subscribe here. We've got a lot more shows

1189
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:06,460
Speaker 4: coming up on all sorts of ethical, moral, apologetic topics. historical,

1190
01:04:06,660 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 4: archaeological topics you will not want to miss. And you

1191
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,290
Speaker 4: can go to Southern Evangelical Seminary to bring a full circle.

1192
01:04:13,810 --> 01:04:17,930
Speaker 4: We are partners here. We want everybody to get theological training.

1193
01:04:18,310 --> 01:04:20,770
Speaker 4: That's the most important thing. But we'd love to have

1194
01:04:20,790 --> 01:04:23,230
Speaker 4: you here at Talbot School of Theology as well.

1195
01:04:23,710 --> 01:04:24,610
Speaker 1: Thanks, Frank. This was fun.

1196
01:04:25,230 --> 01:04:28,050
Speaker 3: Thank you, Sean. Thank you, Scotty. Glad to see the

1197
01:04:28,110 --> 01:04:31,240
Speaker 3: father-son team out there. By the way, I also want

1198
01:04:31,260 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 3: to mention we have two podcasts a week. It's called

1199
01:04:33,260 --> 01:04:35,140
Speaker 3: the I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist podcast,

1200
01:04:35,180 --> 01:04:37,620
Speaker 3: so You can check that out. Also, as I mentioned,

1201
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 3: we're going to have John Lennox on there. By the

1202
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:41,830
Speaker 3: time this airs, it'll probably be out.

1203
01:04:41,920 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 4: I'm sure.

1204
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,300
Speaker 3: You need to check that out. Lennox is just my

1205
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:46,820
Speaker 3: favorite apologist out there.

1206
01:04:47,260 --> 01:04:47,919
Speaker 1: What a great man.

1207
01:04:48,420 --> 01:04:49,200
Speaker 4: Well, he might be my second.

1208
01:04:49,220 --> 01:04:50,180
Speaker 1: I was like, my grandpa's still alive.

1209
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 3: Exactly.

1210
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 4: What are we doing here?

1211
01:04:51,420 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 2: He's 87, but come on, man.

1212
01:04:53,940 --> 01:04:54,580
Speaker 4: Come on, man.

1213
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 2: He did tell me to say hi. I told him

1214
01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 2: and Dottie that I was coming on and talking to you,

1215
01:04:59,750 --> 01:05:01,850
Speaker 2: and they said send their love to Frank. We love him.

1216
01:05:02,050 --> 01:05:02,410
Speaker 3: Oh, no.

1217
01:05:02,490 --> 01:05:05,100
Speaker 1: I love your parents. Exactly. I mean, your dad is

1218
01:05:05,140 --> 01:05:06,440
Speaker 1: really the one, man, those books.

1219
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 3: That was the one that, you know, evidence demands a

1220
01:05:09,820 --> 01:05:11,460
Speaker 3: verdict more than More Than a Carpenter, but More Than

1221
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:15,500
Speaker 3: a Carpenter was good too. And I know you've updated

1222
01:05:15,540 --> 01:05:17,620
Speaker 3: both of those, Sean, so they're still out there, right?

1223
01:05:18,130 --> 01:05:21,170
Speaker 4: Yeah, we updated More Than a Carpenter 2024. So we

1224
01:05:21,190 --> 01:05:25,110
Speaker 4: did a second update and then Evidence came out 2017,

1225
01:05:25,110 --> 01:05:26,330
Speaker 4: but we're working on an update.

1226
01:05:26,370 --> 01:05:26,930
Speaker 1: We're just starting.

1227
01:05:26,970 --> 01:05:30,870
Speaker 4: It'll come out in 2034. Again, so that's the book

1228
01:05:30,930 --> 01:05:34,189
Speaker 4: that just keeps on giving, man. The evidence just keeps

1229
01:05:34,250 --> 01:05:36,780
Speaker 4: coming and updating it. So we're on it.

1230
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:38,260
Speaker 1: All right, guys.

1231
01:05:38,300 --> 01:05:39,660
Speaker 3: See you, brother.

1232
01:05:40,020 --> 01:05:40,700
Speaker 1: See you. Bye.

1233
01:05:41,060 --> 01:05:43,700
Speaker 4: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1234
01:05:43,780 --> 01:05:46,700
Speaker 4: follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1235
01:05:46,780 --> 01:05:49,090
Speaker 4: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge

1236
01:05:49,150 --> 01:05:51,930
Speaker 4: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

1237
01:05:51,970 --> 01:05:56,330
Speaker 4: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

1238
01:05:56,530 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 4: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1239
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,600
Speaker 4: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1240
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,980
Speaker 4: where we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation,

1241
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 4: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would

1242
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,590
Speaker 4: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

1243
01:06:13,650 --> 01:06:16,440
Speaker 4: defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you

1244
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,060
Speaker 4: when the next episode drops.