1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Life audio. 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 2: Pastor Chandler, thanks for joining me, oh Man, I was 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 2: eager for this one. 4 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 5 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Pastor and author Matt Chandler, who has a new book, 6 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: Becoming Why Jesus, The every Day Journey to living a 7 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: life of holiness. Of course, you are pastor of the 8 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: village church there in Texas. You've said this book is 9 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,319 Speaker 1: something you wanted to write for twenty years. Why is 10 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: this subject so important to you? 11 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there were a couple of things that 12 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,120 Speaker 2: were climbing at once. One. I've been pastoring the same 13 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: church for almost a quarter of a century now, and 14 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: so was I think I've been able to see, well, 15 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 2: not just in my own story of becoming more like Jesus, 16 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: but in the lives of like thousands of every day people, 17 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 2: what it looks like to go through the different seasons 18 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: of life, what the Holy Spirit tends to do in 19 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: your life. 20 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: Over time, and how beautiful that is. 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: So that was that was one piece of it, Just 22 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 2: getting to watch twenty year olds who were just wild 23 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: in the party scene here in Dallas profoundly encounter Jesus 24 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: and then get married and then have kids. Some lost kids, 25 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 2: some didn't, some ended up being getting divorced, some struggled 26 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: with addiction, and some were just good church folk and 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: watching what the Holy Spirit did over time in all 28 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: those different scenarios. So that was certainly a piece. The 29 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 2: other piece was there is a I can't quite still 30 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: looking for the language around where I think it's got 31 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: to be just a lie from the enemy, that following 32 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: Jesus is this up into the right experience where once 33 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: you give your life to Jesus, there's no more doubt, 34 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: there's no more struggle. It's like this light switch kind 35 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 2: of moment where you don't end up with a personal 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: Lord and savior, you end up with a genie in 37 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 2: a bottle that you're expecting to make all your dreams 38 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 2: come true. And then the disorientation that befalls many evangelicals 39 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: in a difficult season or in a season of disorientation 40 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: or discombobulation, where then they might deconstruct and say that 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: it didn't work for them, and that I'm wondering, like, 42 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: what gospel was preached to you? What did you think 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 2: you were going to get? Did no one ever show 44 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 2: you where Jesus said in this world you will have trouble, 45 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 2: but take heart. I have overcome the world. And so 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: I think those two things were kind of slamming into 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: one another. My longevity here and then now I'm fifty 48 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: one now and so and I've endured. I mean, I 49 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: had a terminal cancer diagnosis. I had seven years of 50 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 2: a very difficult marriage. I've been betrayed internally externally. I've 51 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: just experienced enough and far enough away from some of 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 2: that sorrow to see the good work of God in 53 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: it at the time. Couldn't have seen it at the time, 54 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 2: didn't enjoy it at the time. Wasn't like, Oh, God 55 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: must be doing a deeper work in me. At the time, 56 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: I was with David when he said, how long, O Lord, 57 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 2: will you forsake me? Will you forsake me forever? 58 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: I was with. 59 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: Jeremiah, who said, I you deceived me, And I was deceived. 60 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 3: That's where I was. But now, all. 61 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: These years later, I can look back on some of 62 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: that and go, oh, no, no, no, he was right there 63 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 2: doing a deeper work in me. And so that's all 64 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: the stuff that was in the room, and it finally 65 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: felt time to write this book. 66 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: Of course, this is we're dealing with the Biblical document 67 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: sanctification as what we're talking about. You call it progressive sanctification. 68 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: Help us understand that concept. What do you mean by progressive? 69 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: So sanctificationsive is just the idea that this is going 70 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: to take time. 71 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: That sanctification isn't a light switch. It's not going to 72 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: happen over overnight. It is a lifelong journey. So this 73 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: is where, like I wish biblical literacy was higher among 74 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 2: a lot of evangelicals. 75 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 3: So when they. 76 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 2: Quote he who began the good work in you will 77 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: be faithful to complete it. Well, that's not the entire verse, right. 78 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 2: It goes on to say at the day of the Lord, 79 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 2: So I am in progress. I am a work in 80 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: progress from I would argue before I became a Christian, 81 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 2: all the way until I breathe my last or Christ returns. 82 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 3: And so to expect that in any given. 83 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: Moment on that long journey home, that I am a 84 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: perfect kind of finished product is actually setting me up 85 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: for a great deal of disappointment and disorientation when I struggle, 86 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,120 Speaker 2: when I stumble, when I fall, when I make a mistake, 87 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: when I'm not the husband I should be, or the 88 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: father I should be, or the pastor I should be, 89 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: or fill. 90 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 3: In the blank. 91 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,720 Speaker 1: You I draw from jesus teaching and the beatitudes in 92 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: this book, why start there? 93 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: Wh focus on that? Well? 94 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: So if it's not up and to the right, what 95 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 2: is it? And so I'm making the argument in the 96 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 2: book that it's like a coil laid horizontally where every 97 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: high and low is still moving you forward. So even 98 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 2: in your disorientation, doubt, or discombobulation, the dark knight of 99 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 2: the soul call it what you want, God is still 100 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: at work. You're still moving forward, even what it feels 101 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: like to. 102 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 3: You big you're stuck. So that's how. 103 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: And then I wanted to be real specific. I don't 104 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 2: want it to be nebulous so great, What does it 105 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 2: look like to become more like Jesus? What were we 106 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: actually talking about? So embedded the book in Matthew five 107 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 2: and wanted to say, hey, Jesus didn't come to find 108 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 2: these people. There aren't these perfect beatitude people out there, 109 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: and those are the ones he loves. No, He's come 110 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 2: to make them. And so you know those who mourn, 111 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: those who are humble, those who are meek, those who 112 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: are peacekeepers, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, those 113 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:07,359 Speaker 2: like the spirit is doing that work in us, and 114 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: that work is accomplished over time and in community, and 115 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: that work is deep work. It's not surface level work. 116 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: There is no spiritual bypass, there is no silver bullet. 117 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: This is a long journey home. That maybe should be 118 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 2: the better title of the book. Just the negative connotation 119 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: of the more positive connotation, like you're becoming like Jesus. 120 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 2: And so the beatitudes give us a picture of what 121 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: God's accomplishing in us. And the more those things are 122 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: formed in us, the more we look and behave and 123 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: respond and react like Jesus did. Do you think the 124 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: church broadly has of exercise conversion at the costs of 125 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 2: holiness and the Cybersham You would have a hard time 126 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: with data or with ancillary experience arguing any other way. 127 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: Tell me how that happened and why that happened? Well, 128 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think gosh. I mean historically, I think 129 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:10,559 Speaker 1: a lot of it was the idea of conversion being 130 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: the main goal. But the main goal has never been conversion. 131 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: The main goal has always been discipleship. And so I 132 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: think the majority. 133 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: Of churches put a ton of energy into how do 134 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: we get people saved, and put not near enough energy 135 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 2: in the now what and so like, one of the 136 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: things I say all the time at the village is, man, 137 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: we celebrate baptisms here as better as well as anybody. 138 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: I mean, our people shall and yell and give a 139 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 2: standing ovation. We freak out at baptisms. I want to 140 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: know where they are three years later, Like, okay, great, 141 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: we just baptized some people this Easter. I'm real curious 142 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: where are they going to be three years from now? 143 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: How are we helping them know what it looks like 144 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: to walk with Jesus now? Because he says it's not 145 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 2: just baptized all nations, it's make disciples of all nations. 146 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: And so I think that's I think cod if COVID 147 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: taught us anything, is that our people are under disciples. 148 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: And so I'm hoping that there's going to be more 149 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: intentionality placed around that in churches everywhere. Tell me how 150 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 2: holiness and discipleship intertwine. Is holiness of something personal on 151 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: Discipleship is something that is done to you? 152 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: Is that how? 153 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: No, I think discipleship is growth in holiness. Okay, that 154 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 2: I would attach the two and not your I want 155 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 2: to be real careful with that because I'm not trying 156 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: to ooch towards legalism. Here, I'm saying that if I've 157 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 2: oriented my life around the presence and power of Jesus, 158 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 2: then over time I am conformed into his image. It's 159 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: not so much like the beatitudes. Aren't a checklist or 160 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: a ladder I'm trying to climb. 161 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 3: They're a work of. 162 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: The spirit in me as I try to close the 163 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: distance between me and the world. And so if I 164 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: could get real practical, like someone who's in a season, 165 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: it's like like I'll use my balm personal season. I 166 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: was diagnosed with terminal cancer in two thousand and nine 167 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 2: ana plastic oligodendroglioma who grade three terminal brain cancer, incurable, 168 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 2: two to three years to live, and we're going to 169 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 2: poison you those last two to three years. Had three 170 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: small children. I had this church that I was leading. 171 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 2: It was growing seeing people come to know the Lord. 172 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: We were serious about disciple making and man when we 173 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: got the diagnosis, had a seizure on Thanksgiving morning in 174 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: front of my kids and was rushed. Sweet wife called 175 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 2: nine one one Amazon, meet golf ball sized two. We're 176 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: in the right frontal lobe. That was the diagnosis and prognosis. 177 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: Now it felt to me in that moment let the 178 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 2: floor fell out. I don't know. I mean, I'd been 179 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 2: teaching our church about suffering. 180 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: We were a young church. 181 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 2: I didn't do the funeral of a seven year old 182 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: faithful man until I been here a decade. I was 183 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 2: doing a lot of six year olds, twenty eight year olds, 184 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: twenty six year olds, fifteen year olds. It was a 185 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: brutal season of pastoral ministry, heartbreaking. And the floor fell 186 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: out from under me. And I had two choices in 187 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: that moment. I could, with that disorientation create space from God. 188 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 2: I could take my doubts and my frustrations and my really, God, me, 189 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: You're given this to me, not this guy that's a 190 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 2: serial adulterer and a terrible father. That was all in me, 191 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 2: That was all in me. And I could either run 192 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 2: from the Lord and hide that ugliness, or I could 193 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: move towards the Lord with the ugliness and be honest 194 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: about it. And it's in that which I call in 195 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 2: the book, I talk about that like confession. The confession 196 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: is not just telling God, here's my sin, although it 197 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: is that confession is just telling God the truth. And 198 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 2: so a mark of intimacy and growth and I would argue, 199 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: Holy is for me to take my heart before the Lord. 200 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 2: So this is blessed or the pure and art. I'm 201 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: just preaching that chapter right now that my heart is 202 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: not perfect, but it is pure. And so you start 203 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: praying like guys do in the Bible where Jeremiah says, 204 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 2: you deceived me and I was deceived. Now, Jeremiah could 205 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: have taken that another place. He never had to say 206 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: that to the Lord, but it was in his heart. 207 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 2: So if blessed are the pure in heart, for they 208 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: will see God. Who got to see God? Jeremiah who 209 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 2: said it, you deceived me and I was deceived? Or David, 210 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 2: how long the Lord will you forsake me? Will you 211 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: forsake me forever? Like those are honest prayers about the 212 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: states of their the states of their hearts. That I 213 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 2: shouled them into intimacy with Jesus, into the presence of God, rather. 214 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: Than creating distance. 215 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: Because I know I shouldn't think like that, so I 216 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 2: feel ashamed. So let me create distance from God. And 217 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: so that to me, to me is the magic sauce. 218 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: It's believing that the Gospel's true in my sanctification, that 219 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 2: Jesus knew what he was buying on the cross, But 220 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: he's not looking at me right now with the furrowed brow. 221 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: Can't believe this is where I am. I can't believe 222 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: this is where I am, as in I thought I 223 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: would be farther along. 224 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: I have not surprised Jesus with how slow this is taken. 225 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: Many people hear holiness and they think about rules perfection. 226 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: They don't like that word. How do you help someone 227 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: understand it biblically? 228 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I would go to Blessed are those who 229 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 230 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: So righteousness isn't about legal standing. It's about right relatedness. 231 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: And so blessed are the ones who hunger and thirst 232 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: for right relatedness between themselves and God, between themselves and themselves, 233 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: and between themselves and others. And so holiness is a 234 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: byproduct of being in the presence and power of God. 235 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: That's where you're going to become holy because Jesus, and 236 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: if we could move past the beatitudes and get into 237 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: the rest of the sermon on the Mount, what Jesus 238 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 2: wants is you. That's what he's after, all of you, mind, body, 239 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: and soul. And so you don't get holy by white 240 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: knuckle discipline. You get holy by submitting yourself to the 241 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: beauty and reality of Jesus in everyday life. And the 242 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: more you strive for holiness, the less chance of holiness 243 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: you get. This is Jesus's whole point to the Pharisees, 244 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: where he says, you have heard it said, and he 245 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: gives them the external moral holiness. Right, do not hate 246 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: or do not murder. But I say, if your heart's 247 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 2: al to it, you're full of rage in your heart. 248 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 3: You're still guilty. You're not free. 249 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: It is like the alcoholic that never is never actually free. 250 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 2: They're just always managing the addiction. So there might be 251 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: something to be said for that, But I don't know 252 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: that we're calling that holiness like holiness is not just 253 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 2: this external moral state. It's what Jesus turns us into 254 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: over time by moving back into his presence with everything, 255 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 2: because that's what Jesus is after my audience, soul, all 256 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: of it. Only one's going to make that offer. 257 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: When I hit the subject, I tend to look at 258 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: the culture, and our culturist has grown more divisive, less loving, 259 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: less peaceful in recent years. Yeah, did that have anything 260 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: to do with you wanting to write about this subject 261 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: now or is that just totally unrelated? 262 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: Oh? 263 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 3: Man, I don't know. 264 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 2: There's probably other things I want to say to the 265 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 2: prevailing culture. But it's certainly there were two chapters in 266 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 2: particular where I could feel the weight of that, a 267 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: chapter on mercy and the chapter on peace making, not peacekeeping, peacemaking, 268 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 2: and how risky that is in this season, and how 269 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 2: scary that is, and yet Jesus doesn't shy away from it. 270 00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: Good co Ben, How would you describe biblical humility that's 271 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: kind of a related topic here into what we're talking 272 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: about in terms of the culture, especially in contrast to 273 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: our culture. 274 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 2: At what is biblical humility? Well, so there's two different 275 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 2: ways that the Beatitudes address humility. That the first would 276 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: be in be at the first beatitude poor in spirit, 277 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: that we come to God beggarly, like we're not bringing 278 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: things to God to fulfill him, like we're coming empty handed. 279 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 2: We have nothing by which we can operate that would 280 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: move us to that life life that Jesus promises in 281 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: John ten ten. So humility is an acknowledgement of our 282 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: own weakness, an acknowledgement of our own powerlessness. That would 283 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: be the first way that the Beatitudes talk about humility 284 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 2: humility before God, you are God, I am not you know, 285 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: I do not. You see I do not, So that 286 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: would be one layer. And he also begins to address meekness, 287 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: which is a different form of humility, that strength control. 288 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: That's more horizontal humility, whereas blessed or the poor in 289 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: spirit is kind of your vertical humility. Your God, I'm 290 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 2: not Meekness is power under control. That what you have 291 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: given me in regards to intellect, personality, opportunity. 292 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 3: Position. 293 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 2: That's been given to me not to flex on the 294 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 2: horizontal plane, but to serve and love on the horizontal plane. 295 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: And so those are the two dances of formation or 296 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: sanctification in the Beatitudes. It's two things the spirit will 297 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: do in us over time. You mentioned your health battle earlier, 298 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: and give us anothering on your health. 299 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 3: Oh how are you doing. 300 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: I've still got to go it's apparently incurable, even though 301 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: it's been it'll be seventeen years this fall, so I 302 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: still have to go in once a year to get 303 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 2: a scan. But even though I'm collogist, is like something 304 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: else will kill you before this does. Now and she's 305 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: probably right. How do you want this. 306 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: Book to impact our readers? Give us your overall for this. 307 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 3: It's what I so want for you. 308 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: I mean, if you're listening to this, I just so 309 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:11,639 Speaker 2: want for you to understand the power of the Gospel 310 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: in your sanctification. Like the people I serve here, they're 311 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 2: just and there. It's done just them. It's in my travels, 312 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 2: it's through the churches that I've held plant through Act 313 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 2: twenty nine. Like evangelicals have this like just this kind 314 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: of it's like hatred of where they are and where 315 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 2: they are with the Lord, and they're they're the worst 316 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 2: moms and the worst dads, and the worst Christians and 317 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: the worst and I just want like that's how I 318 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 2: started the book. I started the book with the reminder 319 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: that Jesus wants all of you mind, body, and so 320 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: Jesus knew what he was buying on the cross, and 321 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: this is a process he knows about. This is a 322 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: lifelong process. So you become like Jesus with deep work 323 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: for over time in community, and so you position yourselves 324 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 2: under those waterfalls and the Lord is patiently transforming you. 325 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: He's not the one like you should be as gracious 326 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 2: to you as He's been to you, because you're gonna 327 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 2: make mistakes. I'm gonna make mistakes. We're human, He's not. 328 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 2: We are, And so to let God do his work 329 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 2: and you and just see hardship, failure, suffering as an 330 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: opportunity for the Spirit to shape you more into the 331 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: image of Jesus. Is the joy on the journey of 332 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 2: becoming more like Jesus. 333 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,040 Speaker 1: Perhaps this is the final question for your pastor. You 334 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: are a pastor of a prominent church there in Texas's 335 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: many many Christian leaders nationwide are seeing a movement of 336 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: God across our country broadly, but also specifically within gen 337 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: Z College campuses. What have you seen in your church 338 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: community related to any of that. Yeah, there's no question, 339 00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: and I'm sure I've seen the same thing you are. 340 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 1: We are in the middle of something. I hope it's 341 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: the beginning, not the middles. The last three years here 342 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 1: have been just marked by supernatural activity. Like a pastor 343 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: friend of mine, his own staff here with me, one 344 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: of the elders. He said, like, right now, it just 345 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: feels like the fruit is falling off the tree into 346 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: the basket. 347 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 3: That we're not even having to pick it. And it's 348 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: just falling in. 349 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 2: The basket where we laid the basket. 350 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 3: And so we have been saying. 351 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: For the last three years that we've got a lot 352 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 2: of wood but no fire. We've got a pretty big 353 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: sale but no wind, and really asking the Holy Spirit 354 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 2: to do here what he seems to be doing, not 355 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 2: just in the US, but really globally right now, all 356 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: sorts of amazing things happening in the UK and Australia, 357 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: And so I just started making the appeal with several 358 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 2: other pastors here. We don't want to watch this on YouTube. 359 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 2: We don't want to watch if we're at the beginning 360 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: of some awakening, if we're at the beginning of some revival, 361 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: we don't want to watch it play out on YouTube. 362 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: We want to avail ourselves to the Lord and ask 363 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 2: him to do it here. And He has honored that 364 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 2: prayer here in really stunning ways. And so yeah, now 365 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: we're just now to me, it feels a little like stewardship. Okay, 366 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 2: how do we stay low but still stand up and 367 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: move into the space that God's asking us to move into? 368 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: But record number of baptisms last year, which is saying 369 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 2: something at our place unbelievable spiritual hunger and then the 370 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 2: kind of radical salvations that make you break out. 371 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: In goosebumps among all ages? Are we talking about specific 372 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: age that it? Yeah, it's been among all ages now. 373 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: Certainly our students and young adults have kind of led 374 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: the charge in it, but it's not it is spread. 375 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: My good friend Jenny Allen, Jonathan Pekluda, some of these 376 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: guys that are on the forefront of this college campus thing. 377 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: The big question behind closed doors was will this jump 378 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: into the church? Like we're seeing it all these color 379 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: but will it jump into the church? And by the 380 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: grace of God, it seems to be doing just that. 381 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: And so yeah, we're we're humbled and thrilled. We've got 382 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: a three day sacred assembly coming up later this month 383 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: where we're just like Jesus is the goal, like, you know, 384 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: a ton of expectations, no agenda, Like, how's it a win? 385 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: We're asking the Lord to show up in a significant 386 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: way among us. We've been praying twenty four to seven 387 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: since I've ober around it. Then we're just gonna seek 388 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: his face. Terms get debated here. Are you just calling 389 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: it a movement of God and letting God. I don't 390 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: know what the metric would be for us to start 391 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: using the word revival, it's certainly something. It's something like 392 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: no one would have. 393 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: Guessed we would be where we are today in twenty 394 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 2: twenty You know that, I don't know that i'd have 395 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 2: bet on it. 396 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: And I'm an optimist. 397 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: You know, if you'd have told me that in twenty 398 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 2: twenty five, gen Z would lead the way in church attendance, 399 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: that Bible sales would be driven by gen Z and 400 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 2: Jen Alpha and some of the millennials, and that we 401 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: would be like even like Christian adjacent stuff would be exploded, 402 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: like West huff On Joe Rogan talking about the Bible 403 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 2: for two hours, what like all these guys with tons 404 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: of influence who I think like the Kingdom but have 405 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: no intention of bowing their need to the King. Like 406 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: they're becoming like loud speakers about the Kingdom of God 407 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 2: to the unbelieving world, And like I just I just 408 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 2: don't think you could have seen this coming, like number 409 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: one shows being about King David or being about the 410 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: life of Jesus, Like it's everywhere right now, and it's 411 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: like you can't escape it even if you hate it. 412 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: It's everywhere, and we just wouldn't have guessed that five 413 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 2: years ago. Maybe this is my final question, what do 414 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 2: you think is driving it? Do you have any I mean, 415 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,199 Speaker 2: God is the driver always, that's the driver, that's the 416 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,479 Speaker 2: spiritual aids. Well, what would be have watched the death 417 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: of secularism? I think it crested and crashed and you 418 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: have a whole generation that watched the generation before them 419 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: go at it and they're like, no, thank you, no 420 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 2: thank you. And so I think secularism is dead. I 421 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: don't think it's dying. I think it's dead. And so 422 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: what's gonna take its place? So the reason why I 423 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,159 Speaker 2: would encourage churches and Christians to really get in the 424 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 2: game right now is that the other thing that's on 425 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: the rise right now is legit old school neo paganism, 426 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: witchcraft and crystals. And like I live in the suburbs 427 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: of Dallas and I just had a guy. I was 428 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 2: offered to pray for him and he said, hey, we okay, 429 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: but we're gonna be praying to different gods. Okay, say 430 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: more about that. Well, my wife is a witch and 431 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 2: we worship the Irish Celtic god Moro. We have an 432 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: altar in our house to her, and that's who we 433 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: pray to. Like, I have never heard anyone like unapologetically, 434 00:23:53,640 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: just like white collar successful guy say we're pagans. So 435 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: that stuff's growing too. Why because secularism is dead. So 436 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: they're looking for the transcendent and you better believe those 437 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 2: principalities and powers. That's an old gain for them. They're 438 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 2: just pulling a script out of neopaganism, and so people 439 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 2: are going to go towards the new age paganism, demonic 440 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 2: stuff if we don't get them to see and marvel 441 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 2: at the beauty of Jesus by the grace of God. 442 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 4: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to describe 443 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 4: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks 444 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 4: to the team at Life Audio for their partnership with 445 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 4: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot 446 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 4: com you will find dozens of other faith centered podcasts 447 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 4: and their network. 448 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: See you next time.