1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. He called to make a 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: difference in mental health. Columbia International University offers graduate counseling 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: degrees that combine professional excellence with Biblical truth from associates. 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: Through doctoral program, CiU prepares you to bring healing and 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: wholeness to others through a biblically based framework of compassion 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: and care. Whether it's their k CREP accredited Masters in 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: Clinical Counseling or their PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, 15 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: You'll learn from experience faculty who integrate faith with real 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: world application to cultivate a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, 17 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: and train. Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, 18 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: CiU's counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: and spiritually. Visit CiU dot edu to learn more about 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: making a difference in mental health through Christ centered education. 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, and welcome to this 22 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: episode of Thanking Christian and doctor James Spencer and I'm 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: joined by doctor Bed Matthew. Ben is a professor of 24 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: counselor education at Columbia International University, and we're continuing our 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: conversation about faith and mental health today and we're going 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: to be talking about the second leg of the stool 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: that we've been talking about, so we've addressed one of 28 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: them so far. We talked a little bit about the 29 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: social leg of school that stool in the last couple 30 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: of episodes, and now we're going to move into the 31 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: existential leg. This idea of shared meaning making and what 32 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: is that and how does that relate to mental health? 33 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: So Ben, welcome back, Thanks for being here. 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, always great to be with you, James. 35 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 1: Ben's having a little existential crisis on this episode, just 36 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: to let everybody know. He's in the midst of a 37 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: tornado warning and so we may hear sirens blaring or 38 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: you know, windows crashing in, but he's braving the elements 39 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: to be on the show with us today. So appreciate that, brother, absolutely. 40 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 2: As I said to James earlier, if this helps your 41 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: views and likes, I'm there for man. 42 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: That's what shared meaning making is really all about, its views, 43 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: and like, this is where we find meaning today, and 44 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: so if you could help me out with that, that would 45 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: be fantastic. So we're really talking to I think this 46 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 1: is an interesting topic because I was just sitting around 47 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: actually thinking about this last night, and you know, I 48 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: have so much going on in life, and everything's kind 49 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: of good, like it's all good stuff. But within the busyness, 50 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: there are these moments where I find myself combating the 51 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: idea that none of it matters, right, that it's none 52 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: of none of it's good enough, that you're not really 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: having any impact, that you're not really doing anything particularly important. 54 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: And maybe that's all true. It's just I'm not sure 55 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: it really matters. And so there's a sense in which, 56 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like this this sort of baseline 57 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: anxiety is sort of seeping in a lot of areas. 58 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: I'm certainly feeling it at certain points, and it just 59 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: feels like, you know, in those moments, I have to 60 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 1: sort of reset my understanding of what we're doing here, 61 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: like what is really our meaning, our purpose, our general 62 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: sense of what matters in life. How do you encounter 63 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: that sort of in your own life maybe, but also 64 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: in your practice. 65 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: No, yeah, I'll start with the second one. I can 66 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: recall actually dealing with clients. You know, again, whenever they 67 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 2: first come in, it's usually some kind of mood disorder, depression, anxiety, 68 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: and we kind of unpack some of the realities, and 69 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: after we spend some time together, after they feel a 70 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: little more comfortable with me. I've had a couple of 71 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: clients come to this point in the counseling. I'll give 72 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: you the phrase that I often hear, I'm angry at 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: God for my existence. I'm angry at God for my existence. 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 2: So that's more than just I'm having marriage problems. That's 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 2: more than just I'm feeling really depressed about this life situation, 76 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 2: which is there as well. But as they process this 77 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: stuff in their life, it gets to this larger level, 78 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: this this other other engagement that is so much more 79 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 2: about them, to this larger existential kind of thing. And 80 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: the response that sometimes come is because of all this 81 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: stuff that's happening here. There's this frustration, this anger, this 82 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: bitterness against not just God, but the God who would 83 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: allow my existence to be a reality that's having to 84 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 2: deal with all this, and there's this significant shift in 85 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: what we're then doing in the counseling that again, I 86 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: don't want to ignore the life's circumstances. And I think 87 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: you're right. I think we all did. I know I 88 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: do as well. Where you continue to put in effort 89 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: day in and day out on whatever project or purpose 90 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 2: that you're engaging with, and whether it's the lack of reciprocation, 91 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 2: whether it's this disengagement from others, you just have a 92 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 2: sense of like I'm not even doing this, Like I 93 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: does not feel like an energy well spent, if not 94 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: to the specific issue, just to the larger why even bother? 95 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 2: But when I hear that in clients, that particularly that 96 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: kind of not just frustration of the situation, but anger 97 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: at existence. Most of my clients are Christians, and so 98 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: it's directed theologically towards a person, but I've had other 99 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: clients who are not religiously or and they'll just use 100 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: the language I'm just angry at exists. I'm angry that 101 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 2: I have to be here for this stuff. Yeah, so 102 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: it may not be necessarily directed towards a creator, but 103 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 2: it is still nevertheless frustrated that creates. I would say 104 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: both some other opportunities, but to be honest, some real 105 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: struggles too of how do we kind of then engage 106 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 2: with that Accordingly. 107 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: It's interesting. I don't know how many people can relate 108 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,520 Speaker 1: to this, and it may actually say something more about 109 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: me than maybe I even want to admit. But I 110 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: can remember in high school when I used to run. 111 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: I don't really run that much anymore. I've decided that 112 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 1: I wanted to get big enough that I would never 113 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: have to run again. But when I used to run 114 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 1: in high school, if it was windy out and I 115 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: was running into the wind, it would really frustrate me 116 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: because it's just it was just annoying. Here I am 117 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: trying to run. I just want still air. I just 118 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: want to be running down the road and the wind 119 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: is like coming at It's like you know, blowing in 120 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: your ears. You know, like everything about the wind just 121 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: annoyed me. Right, It's just so frustrating to run when 122 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: it was windy. I could do. I could run on 123 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,560 Speaker 1: the snow, I could run in the rain didn't bother me. 124 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: And it was odd because it was only when I 125 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: was running, like I used to bike all the time 126 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: in Chicago, when snow rain never bothered me. When I 127 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: was biking, right, running just infuriated. It was the most 128 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: annoying thing I'd ever experienced. And occasionally, you know, when 129 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: I when I'm in sort of a rut, I suppose, 130 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: or you know, just just sort of one of those 131 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: moments in life where you're just frustrated, I always think 132 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: back to that running into the wind. That's how it feels. 133 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: There's nothing to like, there's nothing to do with it. Right, 134 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: the wind is the wind. You're not stopping the wind. 135 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 1: There's there's no chance you're going to stop the wind. 136 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: Do you either keep running into the wind or you stop. 137 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: The wind ain't stopping, you know, And that's just something 138 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: that's that's sort of how it feels. It's like, that's 139 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: how that that It's the same feeling I get occasionally 140 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: when I'm doing this work and I'm not really connected 141 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 1: to any sort of meaning and you kind of you 142 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: start to look around in my world. You know, it's 143 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: some of its content creation, but a lot of it 144 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: is just working with major donors or anything like that, 145 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: where it's like it's clear that they don't think you're 146 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: having enough impact, and so you know you're not big enough, 147 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: You're not you know, reaching millions and billions of people. 148 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: Yeah right, And so sometimes I feel really settled in 149 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: the work and say, no, producing good work is the point, right, 150 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: and that's it, and doing little things to help people 151 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: that maybe go unnoticed is the important part. And then 152 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: there's that whole other side of it where you start 153 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,559 Speaker 1: to feel like you're running into the wind. Yeah right, 154 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: there's no way of changing these other trends, Like it 155 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: just keeps coming at you and coming at you, and 156 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: so I don't know that picture of running into the wind. 157 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: That's what I think of when I think about this 158 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: existential leg of the stool. It's this notion that you're 159 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 1: never gonna stop, like life is just going to keep 160 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: coming at you and you either just have to decide 161 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna keep going at it or just stop. Yeah. 162 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: And there's something I'll say when I'm working with clients 163 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: that get to that point who metaphorically are running against 164 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 2: the wind as you said, there's something good about giving 165 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: some space for that frustration, right that the way that 166 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 2: I often say, it's not a great place to live, 167 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: but I think we need to be willing to visit 168 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: there and let the frustration have some space, have some voice, 169 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: I think particularly in Christian circles, where again we do 170 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 2: have an eschological hope. Yes, that's good and right, and 171 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: we should move towards that. And yet again it's not 172 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: without the real struggle of the moment, right, you know, 173 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 2: to quote the preacher vanity of vanity of sorts. We 174 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 2: feel the frustration of the in and out engagement, whether 175 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: it's intellectual or physical or material, and at the end 176 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: of the day, it's like grasping at things and you 177 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: just feel the weight of existence that doesn't always go 178 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 2: the way it should. I know, for me, one of 179 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 2: the things I'm trying to do, both in the clinical context, 180 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: if not for myself personally, is to give some space 181 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: for that frustration rather than just trying to Okay, but 182 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: what's the good news? And there is good news, don't 183 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: be wrong. We should get there. But sometimes I think 184 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: we just need to be willing to give people an 185 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: opportunity to voice the frustration and just sit in it. 186 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: For a while. 187 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: That's not a common I do feel. Within my discipline particularly, 188 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: we try to often shortcut the frustration to get to 189 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: the healing. The healing's good, but we try to get 190 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: their little too fast. Whether it is therapeutically, medically, whatever, digitally, however, 191 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: we try to solve the discomfort. The discomfort is real 192 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 2: and it's based on some real existential crisis. We need 193 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: to give some space for it as needed. 194 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm you know, I mean, I'm a biblical 195 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 1: studies geek. Right, So a lot of this comes down 196 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: back to like interpretive frameworks for me, right, Like when 197 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: I'm trying to work through some of these frustrations, and 198 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,599 Speaker 1: even when I'm to your point, just sitting in that frustration, 199 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: there's a part of my brain that's always like, you 200 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: just need to rethink this, you know, like your perspectives 201 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: off right, And I know my perspective's off and so 202 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: even as I'm taking some time to sort of sit 203 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: in that frustration, I have that little itch in the 204 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: back of my brain it's like, you just need to 205 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: rethink this, Like some of these ideas that are rumbling 206 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: around in your skull just aren't quite right, and there 207 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: has to be this sort of shift that you make 208 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: in order to get back to a place where you're 209 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: recognizing that God uses people differently, that your life does 210 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: have meaning and purpose, that God is working through you, 211 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: and to the extent that you are willing to give 212 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: up your self to him, He's going to do what 213 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: he wants to do through you. I think sometimes I'm 214 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: even trying to change the way I talk about that, 215 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: because sometimes like God's going to do great things through you, 216 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: not necessarily right, not necessarily right, and so you know, 217 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: but I don't know when we think about that interpretive 218 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: framework aspect, do you find that to be helpful or 219 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,760 Speaker 1: is that just me sort of importing my biblical studies 220 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: into the into the realm of mental health? 221 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my God, that's always not just a danger 222 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 2: but a reality for all of us, whether like you, 223 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: you're a scholar of biblical knowledge or anyone. There's always 224 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: a danger of kind of forcing shoehorning in some of 225 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 2: our perspectives if it's not truly helping. That being said, 226 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: I will say similarly, the framework, I'll say for myself, 227 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,840 Speaker 2: the biblical theology framework has been an incredibly helpful lens 228 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: to apply to my hermeneutics in that there's a greater 229 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 2: meta narrative, greater story, and I'm not the center of it. 230 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:30,599 Speaker 2: Like when I hear you say how God loves you 231 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: and has a wonderful plan for your life. Well, yeah, 232 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: those aren't untrue, but that phrase tends to put me 233 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: at the middle of the story, and I'm like, a, right, well, 234 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: maybe I'm not the of the story and that's actually 235 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: a good thing, right. 236 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 237 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: My reframing of scripture in that light that the main 238 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 2: story is not about me but about the person and 239 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: work of God through the Sun and the administration of 240 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: the Spirit. Interesting enough. That actually brings me more joy 241 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 2: and meaning and purpose when I realize I'm not the 242 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: center of the story, or as I've said it to some, 243 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 2: I'm not it, but I get to be part of it. 244 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 245 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:15,599 Speaker 2: Right, I do think there's something to take that framework 246 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 2: and utilize. I have utilized that in certain clinical context 247 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: because existential dread that that frustration of existence tends to 248 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: be somewhat and I use the term more clinically egotistical, 249 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: not as like a character deficiency, but in terms of 250 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 2: very inwardly focused your frustration at your existence is about 251 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 2: your existence, So in that sense, it's the true definition 252 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: of yourself. Again, I want to give space for that. 253 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: I want to give some opportunity to give voice. I 254 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: think that the Psalms gives some ideas of the laments, right, 255 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 2: that's an important part of the emotional experience of humans 256 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: in response to the tragedy of situations and of life. 257 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: At the same time, trying to not just center myself 258 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 2: as the center of the story right helps for both 259 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: Christians and non Christians. I've worked with Christians that it 260 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: makes a little more sense, you know, theologically and foundationally, 261 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: but it even works with clients that don't have a 262 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: similar faith perspective when we help them kind of see, Okay, 263 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 2: maybe you're not the center of the story. Maybe you're 264 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: you're part of a story, whatever that may look like 265 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: in their context. I have found some incredible help in that. Again, 266 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: it does a couple of things. One, it relieves the 267 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: pressure of having to then perform to that expectation. If 268 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 2: I'm the center of the story, it all depends on 269 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: me then. And if I don't get all the likes, 270 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: if I don't get all the videos, if I don't 271 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 2: get all the donors. If I don't get all the 272 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 2: clients all, it puts so much pressure on me. When 273 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: I'm the center of the story, or if I'm not 274 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: the center of the story, it doesn't depend on me. 275 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 2: And I mean theologically, this aligns a lot more with 276 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 2: God's sovereignty over the situations of life. And two, it 277 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: tends to then reorient how do I be part of 278 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: the story, meaning how do I contribute to something greater 279 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: than myself? This is where you know, not to get 280 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: again too philosophical when we start getting into tellos right, 281 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: the ideas of meaning making towards a created end that 282 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: is not something I create myself, but is given to me. 283 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: If I can help clients tap into that that much more, 284 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: working towards something not inherently of themselves, that starts giving 285 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 2: them significant hope in the midst of this existential dread 286 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: that I think biblically, it works for my hermeneutics, personally, 287 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: it works my faith, and even for non Christians it 288 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: helps give them something beyond themselves to look forward to. 289 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when I hear you talk about that, 290 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: a couple of ideas came to mind. Number one is, 291 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: you know, wanting not to jump to the fix. The 292 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: head goes to Romans eight, right, where the Holy Spirit 293 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: helps us express these groanings that we can't really comprehend. 294 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: There's no fix there. It's how do we navigate from 295 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: this broken existence that we're in in the moment to 296 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: the glorified state where we know we're supposed to be 297 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: in union with Christ. And there's no way for us 298 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: to solve for that, like we don't even know what 299 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 1: we're asking. We don't we can't comprehend how we go 300 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: from where we are now to where we know we're 301 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: going to be with Christ, and so there's no solve there. Like, 302 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: that's this appropriate anxiety that we're feeling to some degree 303 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: of not hopelessness, but a complete and utter lack of 304 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: understanding of how to move from here to there. The 305 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: only Spirit, Sorry, that's right, right, And so that that 306 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 1: part where the Holy Spirit intervenes. I think when you're 307 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: talking about like giving time for this sort of anxiety, 308 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: just to sit, for this sort of discomfort, to just sit, 309 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: that like that's the passage I go to. It's this 310 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: idea that sometimes if we're continually trying to solve, we're 311 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: not leaving this room for the groaning that that is 312 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: inevitable for us, and for the work of the Holy 313 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: Spirit to intercede in that space. And then the other 314 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: side is sort of like a Jeremiah moment or Elijah 315 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: in the Wilderness sort of moment moment right where there's 316 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:47,400 Speaker 1: this deep like, Lord, I'm done sort of flavor to it, 317 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: and and God comes in and reframes for them. You know, 318 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: with Elijah, it was man, I'm the only one left, Lord, 319 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 1: and God's like, well, really, you're not really the only 320 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: one left, you know. But God, in his graciousness still 321 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: gives Elijah and out like he recognizes where Elijah is, 322 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: gives him the comfort that there are these seven thousand 323 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,719 Speaker 1: other people aren't doing it. But then you see the 324 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: transition then to Elisha, like a recognition that Elijah is 325 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: at his limit. And I think that's sort of a 326 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: beautiful picture, like there is this reframing that needs to happen. 327 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: But then ultimately we're still dependent on the grace of 328 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: God to sort of walk us through a lot of 329 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: this stuff. Yeah, it's so there's just a couple of 330 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: things that came to mind when you were so good. 331 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: We're talking about those things. 332 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about I mentioned the lament psalms in particular, 333 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 2: right the Yeah, A good section of the Bible is 334 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: essentially this language of poetry that in itself is an 335 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 2: emotional expression of language and feeling and hope and suffering 336 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: that even so much more, I mean, think about that 337 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: Biblical theology lens that when Christ is on the cross, 338 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 2: knowing his childhood and all the things he learned in 339 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: the synagogue, and all the psalms that he probably read 340 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 2: and knew and memorized, that at the greatest existential confrontation 341 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: of his soul, he reaches for one of those lament psalms. Right, 342 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: my God, My God, why have you forsaken me? Yeah, 343 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: we can't begin to unpack the understanding of it, and 344 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 2: yet we know it gives It gives it gives that opportunity, 345 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,479 Speaker 2: It gives language to the existential anxiety of the moment 346 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: in a way that he's not chastised for it. He's 347 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: he's not condemned, as it were, for even phrasing it 348 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 2: that way, but he lets it sit it let's it 349 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: gives it voice because Christ, in that moment recognized what 350 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,120 Speaker 2: the psalmist was doing and is able to appropriate that 351 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,879 Speaker 2: language in a way that I'll say, I'm in a 352 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: clinical context when I'm sitting with clients, and when I 353 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 2: hear them say when I try to give them that space, Yeah, 354 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: to hear them say this is so good for me, 355 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 2: thank you for just letting me get this out, like 356 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: they're thankful, just for the chance to elucidate, just to 357 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 2: give vocabulary to the struggle. Because in almost every other context, 358 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 2: my marriage, my kids, my work, my church, whatever, I've 359 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 2: got to look the part. There's this certain facade I 360 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 2: have to present, and that's somewhat normative. Right, we can't 361 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 2: go around as an e or kind of complex. And 362 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: yet I do wonder to what degree, let me say this, 363 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 2: even within the context of the local church, do we 364 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 2: have space. Do we provide space, whether it's on Sundays, 365 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 2: small groups, smaller context where we give people those Psalm 366 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 2: twenty two opportunities. 367 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, of being able just. 368 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 2: To voice, to articulate the hardship of the moment, knowing 369 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: that there's still support. Right, what is it the times 370 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: before that moment Jesus Christ Father forgive them. There's moments 371 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 2: after where he says, Father, into your hands, I commit 372 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 2: my spirit. The one time Jesus does not address God 373 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 2: as Father is in that moment where he's quoting Psalm 374 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: twenty two. Yeah, but it's nevertheless a real heartache in 375 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 2: the midst of real support. I wonder how the church 376 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: can actually replicate that reality, How in the midst of 377 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: support we can still give voice to the lament that 378 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: needs to happen. 379 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it raises a question. I've been thinking about an 380 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 1: awful lot with the local church and dealing with some 381 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: of these issues. Right, you mentioned the telos before, Right, 382 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: this sort of goal that we're shooting for, and sometimes 383 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: it feels like, I mean, we we're pretty close while 384 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,400 Speaker 1: we're recording this, we're pretty close to just seeing the 385 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: There was this whole kerfuffle with Kirk Cameron online where 386 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: he supposedly did the whole annihilationalism thing, and then you know, 387 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: you just saw the white blood cells of every other 388 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: YouTuber kind of you know going in and like, no, 389 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: this isn't right. And I was watching that happen and 390 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: just I was like, this is reactive catechises. We should 391 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: just know better in general, like how do we not 392 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: know this? How do we not know this? How is 393 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: the how have we gotten to a point where people 394 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: feel the need to react in this way because they're 395 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: concerned that other Christians aren't going to understand what's going 396 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: on with this how do we get here? And part 397 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: of me when when you're saying, like, let's provide this 398 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: sort of lament, uh, the support with room for a lament, 399 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: my concern is that we just haven't built ourselves, even 400 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: early on to provide the appropriate constraints even allow that 401 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: to happen. We've become a little too our boundaries have 402 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: become too blurry, right, And so I'm not talking about 403 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: it tight rigid. You know, you must believe in this 404 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: exact thing, you know, like give them to Like that's 405 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: not what I'm saying. But there is an interpretive framework, 406 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: a grid, a teaching off, a sort of feel that 407 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: would give everyone the boundaries to begin negotiating this in 408 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: ways that are truly Christian in their thought process, as 409 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: opposed to just oh man, this person seems to be 410 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: breaking down. I think they need a counselor right now. 411 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 1: That may be appropriate to identify at certain points, but 412 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: other times you're just kind of sitting there, like why 413 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: can't I just be here in the in the moment 414 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: with a brother or sister who's really having a difficult time. 415 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm not sure we built ourselves to get there. That's interesting. 416 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, the realities. And I'll make this statement that's been 417 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: made by much more qualified individuals than myself. I don't 418 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 2: know if there's exactly a mental health support crisis as 419 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: much as there is a lack of general community support. 420 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: And what I mean by that is, you know, within 421 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: the larger culture, we talked about the mental health crisis, 422 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 2: and we don't have enough providers like myself, a licensed 423 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 2: professional counseers, and so programs like ours here at CiU 424 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: are just blowing up because so many people want to 425 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 2: become counselors. Right again, I'm all for that. Obviously, that's 426 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: my bread and butter, and so I'm all for that. Yeah, 427 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: and yet I do wonder. Here's the example I would give. 428 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: If you wake up in the morning with a headache, right, 429 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: and if your first impulse is to call the local neurosurgeon. Okay, listen, 430 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 2: you may need to get to that point, right, There 431 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 2: may be some something really, but maybe get a drink 432 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 2: of water first. Okay, let's bump it up to todd 433 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 2: on all maybe you want to go take a walk 434 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,439 Speaker 2: or Okay, listen, you might need to call your general practitioner. Like, 435 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 2: there's levels of support. Yeah, before you get to this 436 00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 2: individual that's at this level. 437 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: I I kind of feel the analogy. 438 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, we've gotten to that point where you to what 439 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: you're saying, James, we haven't developed the supports that should 440 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 2: already be embedded in our contexts that we think, well, 441 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 2: because I've got this problem over here, I got to 442 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 2: go straight to the local expert. Hence we have this 443 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 2: backlog of mental health providers who can meet the needs 444 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: of the moment because so many people are calling the 445 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: local neurosurgeon when probably what you need to do is 446 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: get a glass of water. The glass of water is 447 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 2: the local church, is the community of saints that has 448 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 2: been built as a means of support. Are there times 449 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 2: you may need some more clinical expertise help. Absolutely, there 450 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: are levels that we can engage with that I think 451 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: give as certain criteria to look at. But I do 452 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 2: wonder to your point, is it is it have we 453 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: failed in developing those early supports. 454 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: It's it's harder. 455 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 2: It's harder within a especially a Western context that is 456 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways more performative than supportive. 457 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: When I'll say, like my wife and I got involved 458 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: with foster care a few years ago, and just as 459 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: we'd have kids come through, one of the things that 460 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: I started formulating in my head, I'm like, we're a 461 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: tent when they need a house. 462 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 2: That's good. 463 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: So a tent is important right when you're when you're 464 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: out camping, Like, a tent has utility. There's nothing wrong 465 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 1: with a tent, right, but it's got its own sorts 466 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: of limitations. It's going to protect you for a while, 467 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: but it's probably not your permanent shelter. And I was 468 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: thinking to myself, like, we're a tent, right, and so 469 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: there's only certain things you're going to be able to 470 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: do as a tent, right, And so what's needed is 471 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,479 Speaker 1: at a house, right, a more permanent structure that is 472 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,239 Speaker 1: going to provide a different sort of stability. It's not 473 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: going to be as mobile, it's going to be far 474 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: more permanent. You think you're going to stay there much longer, Right, 475 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: You're not just going to pick up a tent and 476 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: go to you know, go to another ten or another 477 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: ten or another tent. Tent's not gonna you know, the 478 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: tent's gonna wear out well before a house. I think 479 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: that analogy can apply into some of the things we've 480 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: done on the local church too, in creating things like 481 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: small groups and different things like that. Those to me 482 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: are kind of like tents. They're they're these really important 483 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 1: helpful arenas. They're not a house, yea. And so you 484 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: almost have to have both, like these sojourning moments when 485 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: you're sort of going around to a different small group, 486 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: or even if you have a smaller community, stall group 487 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: or something like that, these are still fairly impermanent, right. 488 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: The church is what stands. The small group is is 489 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: an extension of that church that may morph and change 490 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 1: over time. You may have people move out of an area, 491 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: you may you know, but the church is the structure. 492 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 1: And so we've got to invest in that house, right 493 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: and build some permanence, some stability, some real durable structures, 494 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: and then allow the small groups to be the tense. Yeah, 495 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: I think if we have tents without the structure, we're 496 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: shorting ourselves. That's good, It's there's a million analogies we 497 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: could use for that, but it's it's this idea that 498 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: without the durable sort of baselines, you know, you could 499 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: you could argue like a military metaphor and say, you know, 500 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,719 Speaker 1: without the sort of general orders, if you're sending soldiers out, 501 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: they're not going to know what to do. And I 502 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: think that's in part what we've got going on. It's 503 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: this mismatch or asymmetry between durability, true mission, true goal, 504 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: true understanding of God's word, a deep rooted understanding what 505 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: it means to be a community. But we've still sent 506 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: people out to execute on something that we haven't been 507 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: sufficiently clear. 508 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: On are ourselves. That's that's so good? Yeah, they And 509 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: again we can go too far to be sure, right, 510 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 2: And I think to some degree that is maybe what 511 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,959 Speaker 2: individuals like kunker Guard were trying to warn against, right 512 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: that like, when you consider the organized church of his 513 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: context and all the supports and pillars that they had, 514 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 2: and he's he's trying to rage against the machine, as 515 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: it were, and say, listen, there is this other element, 516 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: this leap of faith that must be enamored that is 517 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 2: not just because of the structures of the church. I 518 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: think he was right to kind of, you know, be 519 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: the Danish gadfly, that he was right in being the 520 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: critique to the realities and yet the verse I was thinking, 521 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 2: I think it's in one Timothy that the church is 522 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: the pillar and buttress of truth. Right to use your 523 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 2: analogy of a house. Yeah, my parents being from India 524 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 2: when they moved to Canada, they saw, like all of 525 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: our friends going tenting and camping. They're like, what, we 526 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: came from a country that like is trying to avoid that? 527 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: Why would you pay to be? Like camping was such 528 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: an unknown reality for my household. I've done it all, 529 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 2: like you know, I have friends. But to them it 530 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 2: was it was that similar mindset, like what why would 531 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,640 Speaker 2: you willingly go outside to sleep on the ground when 532 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: we've got this right? 533 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, like what is happening? Yeah? 534 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: And and remember thinking through like there is something and 535 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 2: we talked about this in our last episode. There is 536 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: there is this responsibility the church has to make these 537 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: not just supports but proclamations of truth so that when 538 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: these real questions of existential dread do come, and they 539 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: will come, and in some degree I think they should come. 540 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: Right when we look at the world we're in, when 541 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: we look at the constructs that are going on, the 542 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 2: systems that are at play, I don't want to say, 543 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: it's a good response, but I think it's a proper 544 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 2: response for us to feel this dread, this existential difficulty 545 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: in light of the realities around us, that that's a 546 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: a right response in that sense. 547 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's why the church is so. 548 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: Important and its proclamation, in its defense and its pillaring 549 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: buttressing of truth as a means to give the community 550 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 2: of God an opportunity to respond accordingly, not easily, but together. 551 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: And I think that's another element of the social component 552 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: that we've talked about. 553 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: No, I get that. Yeah, it's almost like within the 554 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: existential component there is an appropriate anxiety and that sort 555 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 1: of tension that we feel living in a broken world. 556 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: And yet what we need is we need the church 557 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: to help us find sort of that non anxious present, 558 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: to use Freedman's words, right at this moment where it's like, no, 559 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: we're we're a self differentiated community enough that we understand 560 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: why all of this is important. We're not denying and 561 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: trying to pull away from the you know and say 562 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: you shouldn't care about where you should get your next meal, 563 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: or hey, if your bank accounts at zero, you don't 564 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: need to worry about that, Right, That's not the point. 565 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: The point is that these existential anxieties exists, they're real, 566 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: they're many times appropriate for us to feel. But the 567 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: church is helping us to avoid despair. It's anchoring us 568 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: to a point where it's like, these existential anxieties can 569 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: go this far, but no further. And now you have 570 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: this backstop of the church saying no, we're here, We're 571 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: here to help. We are your anecdote, we are your community, 572 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: and you get through this together. I think that's kind 573 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: of an important notion to your point, Like when you 574 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: wake up with a headache, right, that church is triage. 575 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: It isn't denying that there could be a situation that 576 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: the church itself can't solve right, and that there might 577 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: need to be additional expertise brought in, additional resource brought in, 578 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: additional whatever brought in. But there needs to be this 579 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: sort of baseline community that is helping to manage some 580 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: of that. And if that's where we've lost, we need 581 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: to rethink. 582 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: We need to regain that ground. 583 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: We need to regain that ground. 584 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: There are a number of times in clinical counseling context 585 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: when I'm working with an individual. 586 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: One on one, Yeah. 587 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 2: One very thankful that they're willing to see counseling too, 588 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: that they've showed up and want to deal proactively with 589 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: the struggles they have. I'm all for that, yeah, and 590 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: yet at times there's part of me, especially if and 591 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 2: when they are a believer, they have a faith community, 592 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 2: that I'm thinking, Oh, man, I would love to just 593 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 2: put you in a contact in a church, in a 594 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 2: community that I think can address all these issues you're 595 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 2: dealing with on my couch. I'm thankful you're on my couch, 596 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,760 Speaker 2: but man, I think it'd be so much better because 597 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 2: not only is it just me giving an opportunity both 598 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 2: for voicing and responding. Meaning is solidified in community, Right, 599 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 2: we were looking for meaning and shared meaning in the 600 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 2: contracts specifically of the church has an ability to to 601 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 2: solidify it in ways that both encourage and challenge. Right, 602 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: it's not just one on one, it's one with many, 603 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,359 Speaker 2: and that carries with it all kinds of frustrations too, 604 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 2: that I've got to deal with a bunch of other 605 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 2: people that aren't perfect like me, obviously, but right, nevertheless, 606 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 2: so much better that the shared meaning creates actually greater 607 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,839 Speaker 2: strength and resilience in the midst of that existential dread. 608 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, well let's put a pin in it there. We'll 609 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,800 Speaker 1: talk on the next episode a little bit more about 610 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: this idea of you know, sadness as a rational response 611 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,879 Speaker 1: and what does it really look like, because I think 612 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,319 Speaker 1: we're diving into it, we're getting the heart of this 613 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: existential crisis and it does I think your point, meaning 614 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: making occurs within community is a crucial aspect of this, 615 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: and so let's continue this conversation in the next episode. 616 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: But this has been great. Really appreciate you being here, Ben, 617 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: and appreciate everybody listening. So we'll catch you on the 618 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,320 Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian. Here. I just want to 619 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: take a second to thank the team at Life Audio 620 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 1: for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 621 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens 622 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got 623 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,919 Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.