1 00:00:01,820 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,020 --> 00:00:11,350 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,490 --> 00:00:12,570 Speaker 2: I'm Dr. James Spencer. 5 00:00:12,910 --> 00:00:16,750 Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways 6 00:00:16,790 --> 00:00:20,810 Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, 7 00:00:20,930 --> 00:00:24,350 Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. 8 00:00:24,870 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: Now, on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. 9 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 3: Hey, everyone. 10 00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm your host, Dr. 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: James Spencer, and I'm joined today by Peter Greer. He 12 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:37,820 Speaker 1: is the CEO and president of Hope International, and he's 13 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,700 Speaker 1: also the author of a new book, How Leaders Lose 14 00:00:40,740 --> 00:00:42,460 Speaker 1: Their Way and How to Make. 15 00:00:42,340 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: Sure It Doesn't Happen to You. 16 00:00:44,460 --> 00:00:45,900 Speaker 1: And so we're going to be talking a little bit 17 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: about leadership, about mission drift, about a number of things, 18 00:00:48,870 --> 00:00:52,090 Speaker 1: the pitfalls that leadership comes with. And I'm excited about 19 00:00:52,110 --> 00:00:53,190 Speaker 1: this conversation today. 20 00:00:53,290 --> 00:00:55,010 Speaker 2: Peter, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here. 21 00:00:55,630 --> 00:00:57,230 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Yeah. 22 00:00:58,180 --> 00:00:59,340 Speaker 2: So tell me a little bit. 23 00:00:59,460 --> 00:01:01,540 Speaker 1: I know you, you know, I kind of sort of 24 00:01:01,580 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: gleaned from the book that you'd done some research on 25 00:01:04,140 --> 00:01:07,870 Speaker 1: this topic or some, you know, some ancillary topics in 26 00:01:07,890 --> 00:01:11,890 Speaker 1: the past. So talk about how you came to be 27 00:01:11,930 --> 00:01:14,270 Speaker 1: passionate about writing this book. Writing a book is kind 28 00:01:14,310 --> 00:01:16,190 Speaker 1: of a journey. So you've got to kind of want 29 00:01:16,230 --> 00:01:16,710 Speaker 1: to do this. 30 00:01:18,020 --> 00:01:21,100 Speaker 3: You're exactly right on that. It is a journey. And 31 00:01:21,180 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 3: I guess the origin of it is over a decade ago. 32 00:01:24,170 --> 00:01:26,649 Speaker 3: that some friends and I wrote a book called Mission Drift, 33 00:01:26,830 --> 00:01:29,890 Speaker 3: and we really focused on how organizations moved away from 34 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 3: their Christ-centeredness and how they moved away from their mission. 35 00:01:33,060 --> 00:01:37,020 Speaker 3: And we wrote that book and launched it. And over 36 00:01:37,060 --> 00:01:40,660 Speaker 3: the last 10 years, it has been fascinating to me 37 00:01:40,740 --> 00:01:43,660 Speaker 3: that I think we missed something really important in that book, 38 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 3: because our treatment, our focus was almost entirely on organizations. 39 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 3: And I think there were some helpful things that came 40 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,670 Speaker 3: up and some helpful things, but I think we missed 41 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 3: The absolute connection between what happens to organizations and actually 42 00:01:59,420 --> 00:02:03,300 Speaker 3: what is happening in our hearts and organizational drift is 43 00:02:03,390 --> 00:02:07,430 Speaker 3: actually preceded by personal drift. And so you could call 44 00:02:07,470 --> 00:02:10,230 Speaker 3: this the sequel or maybe more accurately, this might be 45 00:02:10,290 --> 00:02:13,709 Speaker 3: the prequel of that of actually saying, how do we 46 00:02:13,770 --> 00:02:16,730 Speaker 3: drift in our own lives? And again, in recent years, 47 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:20,110 Speaker 3: it has broken my heart to see how many leaders 48 00:02:20,210 --> 00:02:23,250 Speaker 3: had a great start, but not a great end. How 49 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:26,750 Speaker 3: many leaders we've looked up to that make decisions that 50 00:02:26,790 --> 00:02:30,170 Speaker 3: cause us to say, what happened? And then very quickly 51 00:02:30,210 --> 00:02:33,329 Speaker 3: to turn that question, not just what happened in that situation, but, 52 00:02:33,870 --> 00:02:36,670 Speaker 3: and how do I make sure that doesn't happen to me? 53 00:02:36,750 --> 00:02:39,710 Speaker 3: How do I make sure that I have a long-term 54 00:02:39,810 --> 00:02:42,290 Speaker 3: faithfulness in the same direction? And then if there was 55 00:02:42,530 --> 00:02:45,049 Speaker 3: one moment that really spurred on this project, it was 56 00:02:45,169 --> 00:02:47,750 Speaker 3: reading a study that said in scripture, one out of 57 00:02:47,810 --> 00:02:51,830 Speaker 3: three leaders finished well. And the author of that, Robert Clinton, 58 00:02:51,870 --> 00:02:54,590 Speaker 3: went on to say, and he estimates that that probably 59 00:02:54,650 --> 00:02:58,500 Speaker 3: is not far off from the same percentage today that 60 00:02:58,540 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 3: only one in three leaders will finish without egregiously abusing 61 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 3: their power position in the way that they lead. And 62 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 3: to me, that broke my heart. I want to go 63 00:03:09,419 --> 00:03:12,460 Speaker 3: three for three out. I want to finish well, and 64 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 3: I want those that I care about to finish well. 65 00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:17,820 Speaker 3: So those were some of the pieces that really spurred 66 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 3: the interest in this subject and said, let's study how 67 00:03:20,580 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 3: leaders lose their way, and then let's get real practical. 68 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,420 Speaker 1: What would it look like for us to finish well? 69 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,690 Speaker 1: So I teach on leadership at Wheaton College. I do 70 00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:35,290 Speaker 1: an online class on biblical and theological foundations of leadership. 71 00:03:36,030 --> 00:03:38,270 Speaker 1: And so we don't address like leadership theory or anything 72 00:03:38,310 --> 00:03:40,090 Speaker 1: like that. But what we try to do is look 73 00:03:40,190 --> 00:03:43,350 Speaker 1: biblically and sort of draw lessons for leadership out of 74 00:03:43,390 --> 00:03:46,470 Speaker 1: the biblical text. And one of the things I'm consistently 75 00:03:46,510 --> 00:03:48,700 Speaker 1: sort of trying to help the students understand is that, 76 00:03:49,660 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: you know, when you are leading according to what the 77 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,020 Speaker 1: Bible is telling you, you're constantly really looking to follow Christ, 78 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,490 Speaker 1: even if that involves losses. There's not a sense in 79 00:04:02,550 --> 00:04:06,210 Speaker 1: which the Bible is guaranteeing you a successful leadership career. 80 00:04:07,250 --> 00:04:09,510 Speaker 2: It's saying you're going to follow Christ. 81 00:04:09,710 --> 00:04:12,310 Speaker 1: And if you follow Christ to your detriment, you're still 82 00:04:12,330 --> 00:04:16,190 Speaker 1: going to follow Christ. How does that sort of factor 83 00:04:16,270 --> 00:04:20,310 Speaker 1: into the way you think about mission drift and leadership? 84 00:04:21,830 --> 00:04:25,570 Speaker 3: Oh, I think that addresses one of the huge pitfalls, 85 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:27,700 Speaker 3: one of the huge issues that I think for a 86 00:04:27,820 --> 00:04:32,070 Speaker 3: lot of us, we derive our sense of identity from 87 00:04:32,130 --> 00:04:35,750 Speaker 3: what we do. We get our sense of joy from 88 00:04:35,790 --> 00:04:41,530 Speaker 3: what we accomplish. And we found consistently those were upstream 89 00:04:42,070 --> 00:04:45,900 Speaker 3: to minor compromises. Because if we find our identity in 90 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 3: what we do, then it's going to be so intertwined. 91 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,020 Speaker 3: And we're not going to be thinking about next generation leadership. 92 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 3: We're not going to be thinking about what we can 93 00:04:53,700 --> 00:04:55,980 Speaker 3: give away. We're going to think about what can I 94 00:04:56,020 --> 00:04:59,700 Speaker 3: do in my season, in my life to maximize my 95 00:04:59,779 --> 00:05:04,969 Speaker 3: platform and What's the operative word in all those sentences? My, my, my. 96 00:05:05,550 --> 00:05:08,250 Speaker 3: And we're invited. Jesus said, when you pray, what should 97 00:05:08,270 --> 00:05:12,729 Speaker 3: we pray? Not my kingdom come, right? There's a different orientation. 98 00:05:13,070 --> 00:05:16,130 Speaker 3: And what trips up so many leaders is this arc, 99 00:05:16,430 --> 00:05:19,380 Speaker 3: as has been written, that eventually bends inward. 100 00:05:20,060 --> 00:05:22,460 Speaker 2: That has, is, and. 101 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: Will cause leaders to lose their way when the primary 102 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,630 Speaker 3: focus is inward as opposed to upward and outward. And 103 00:05:29,670 --> 00:05:31,890 Speaker 3: so I think this piece of exactly what you said, 104 00:05:32,130 --> 00:05:35,089 Speaker 3: identity and how we define success and how much of 105 00:05:35,210 --> 00:05:38,470 Speaker 3: our worth is found in what we do versus actually 106 00:05:38,570 --> 00:05:41,930 Speaker 3: believing that we are the beloved, like those things have 107 00:05:42,029 --> 00:05:45,070 Speaker 3: real life implications about whether or not we are able 108 00:05:45,089 --> 00:05:49,170 Speaker 3: to have a long-term faithfulness in the same direction. They're 109 00:05:49,210 --> 00:05:52,450 Speaker 3: not just questions that are interesting to ponder. They're questions 110 00:05:52,490 --> 00:05:58,180 Speaker 3: that actually shape our direction. And over time, that inward 111 00:05:58,380 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 3: arc leads us not towards a faithful finish. 112 00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:05,860 Speaker 1: Do you find, so I've worked as a consultant with 113 00:06:06,260 --> 00:06:09,740 Speaker 1: particularly higher education institutions, but some also some Christian nonprofits 114 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,810 Speaker 1: over the years. And one of the things I find, 115 00:06:12,850 --> 00:06:15,210 Speaker 1: I saw one of two dynamics, really, I think I 116 00:06:15,230 --> 00:06:18,550 Speaker 1: could frame it like this. One were schools who just 117 00:06:18,650 --> 00:06:23,309 Speaker 1: saw the pragmatic challenges that they were facing and felt 118 00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:28,550 Speaker 1: forced to to sort of compromise, give up some things 119 00:06:28,810 --> 00:06:32,089 Speaker 1: and move in a different direction or die. Now that 120 00:06:32,170 --> 00:06:35,190 Speaker 1: either are framing, maybe that's appropriate. Maybe it's not right. 121 00:06:35,510 --> 00:06:37,510 Speaker 1: I think in some cases they were probably right. If 122 00:06:37,529 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: they hadn't made a strategic pivot is the nice way 123 00:06:40,390 --> 00:06:42,620 Speaker 1: to say, maybe that's the nice way to say mission drift. 124 00:06:42,830 --> 00:06:43,219 Speaker 2: Not sure. 125 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,700 Speaker 1: Um, but, but if they hadn't done that, maybe they 126 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: would have died. And then other schools who are, uh, 127 00:06:51,140 --> 00:06:55,270 Speaker 1: ardently holding to a particular character and sort of seem 128 00:06:55,350 --> 00:06:59,150 Speaker 1: willing to go down with the ship and not change 129 00:06:59,190 --> 00:07:02,590 Speaker 1: at all. As I look at both of those situations 130 00:07:02,630 --> 00:07:05,089 Speaker 1: and have worked with both of those types of institutions 131 00:07:05,170 --> 00:07:09,130 Speaker 1: and those type of leaders, really, I see sort of 132 00:07:09,270 --> 00:07:13,090 Speaker 1: room to move on both sides, right? I think those 133 00:07:13,130 --> 00:07:18,090 Speaker 1: are polarized ends on a leadership spectrum. And there's some 134 00:07:18,190 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: room in the middle to really continue to be missional, 135 00:07:23,340 --> 00:07:26,850 Speaker 1: make appropriate compromises, not anything that would be, you know, 136 00:07:26,890 --> 00:07:31,550 Speaker 1: a theological conviction or a way of moving, and then also, 137 00:07:31,670 --> 00:07:32,270 Speaker 1: you know, sort. 138 00:07:32,150 --> 00:07:33,770 Speaker 2: Of adapt to the moment. 139 00:07:34,710 --> 00:07:37,390 Speaker 1: How do you think about that within the context of 140 00:07:37,610 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: mission drift? You know, how rigid, I guess, is mission 141 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: drift versus how adaptable is the notion of mission drift? 142 00:07:45,580 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 3: I think that is a great question. And what makes 143 00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:54,380 Speaker 3: this really difficult is the differentiation between the mission and 144 00:07:54,420 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 3: the methods or the mission and the means. And I 145 00:07:58,100 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: would strongly encourage people to have a very clear articulation 146 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:05,900 Speaker 3: of mission. And in that articulation to say, we would 147 00:08:05,980 --> 00:08:10,630 Speaker 3: rather shut down than compromise on this, but then to 148 00:08:10,690 --> 00:08:16,230 Speaker 3: be incredibly open-handed with the ways that you accomplish that mission. 149 00:08:16,450 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: And so there are some that would say any change 150 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: is drift. And I just don't believe that at all. 151 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 3: I think that change is necessary and change is required. 152 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:29,010 Speaker 3: And so just one like practical example is I live 153 00:08:29,050 --> 00:08:31,370 Speaker 3: in Lancaster County and you know what there still is 154 00:08:31,410 --> 00:08:35,610 Speaker 3: a thriving business here for is horse and buggies. However, 155 00:08:35,870 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: in most of the country, if individuals describe their business 156 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:45,540 Speaker 3: as horse and buggies versus drift, We're in the transportation business. 157 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:48,490 Speaker 3: Those lead you to two very different pieces. One keeps 158 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,449 Speaker 3: you focused on a very small market for a very 159 00:08:52,550 --> 00:08:55,670 Speaker 3: small number of people. But the other allows you to 160 00:08:55,730 --> 00:08:58,490 Speaker 3: grow and change over time. And I don't want to 161 00:08:58,530 --> 00:09:00,330 Speaker 3: say I'm in horse and buggies. I want to say 162 00:09:00,350 --> 00:09:03,140 Speaker 3: I'm in transportation, the equivalent of that in the work 163 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: that we do. So define your mission and then be 164 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,099 Speaker 3: understanding that change needs to happen. And I would probably 165 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,580 Speaker 3: argue the opposite, that change is required for you to 166 00:09:12,620 --> 00:09:15,850 Speaker 3: accomplish your mission. change is going to be required for 167 00:09:15,929 --> 00:09:18,030 Speaker 3: you to do it. And so I would say there's 168 00:09:18,110 --> 00:09:21,830 Speaker 3: a strong differentiation between the mission and the method. One 169 00:09:21,929 --> 00:09:24,290 Speaker 3: hold tightly and the other hold loosely. 170 00:09:25,150 --> 00:09:25,970 Speaker 2: That's really helpful. 171 00:09:26,550 --> 00:09:29,069 Speaker 1: And so would you advocate for people to have sort 172 00:09:29,110 --> 00:09:31,630 Speaker 1: of a personal mission as well? How do you think 173 00:09:31,690 --> 00:09:35,370 Speaker 1: about that specific aspect of it? I know I've had 174 00:09:35,550 --> 00:09:38,730 Speaker 1: mission statements done in the past and It is sort 175 00:09:38,750 --> 00:09:41,510 Speaker 1: of eerie how often it comes up again. You know, 176 00:09:41,530 --> 00:09:43,570 Speaker 1: mine is to prod the church to learn to please 177 00:09:43,610 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: God together. And it seems like my thought process just 178 00:09:46,540 --> 00:09:49,179 Speaker 1: sort of pushes me in that direction all the time anyway. 179 00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: And so I think there is something very inherent about it. 180 00:09:52,980 --> 00:09:56,380 Speaker 1: Like God sort of gives us some sort of proclivities 181 00:09:56,490 --> 00:09:59,710 Speaker 1: toward moving towards something and articulating that can be really helpful. 182 00:10:00,470 --> 00:10:03,490 Speaker 1: So how do you think about that for, especially for leaders, 183 00:10:04,410 --> 00:10:07,020 Speaker 1: not just having a job and a position and a, 184 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: you know, whatever, a platform, but actually having a mission? 185 00:10:12,059 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the themes in the book is 186 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:22,050 Speaker 3: really this idea of of drift and currents for organizations 187 00:10:22,110 --> 00:10:25,569 Speaker 3: and in our life as well. And if you are not, 188 00:10:26,830 --> 00:10:29,209 Speaker 3: if you, I mean, I grew up in New England. 189 00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 3: I love being in a canoe. We would do the 190 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,980 Speaker 3: Alley Gash White Waterway as kids. And even today, I 191 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,740 Speaker 3: just love being out on the water and it is 192 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,060 Speaker 3: just a happy place for me. But there is one 193 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:44,860 Speaker 3: thing that I know for certain is if you stop rowing, 194 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,030 Speaker 3: you will not stay in the same place. And if 195 00:10:49,070 --> 00:10:51,850 Speaker 3: you are there and if you do not have the 196 00:10:52,030 --> 00:10:56,350 Speaker 3: destination that is clear, you are most certainly not going 197 00:10:56,390 --> 00:10:59,449 Speaker 3: to go there just by haphazardly kind of rowing when 198 00:10:59,490 --> 00:11:01,510 Speaker 3: you feel like it. And so I think the two 199 00:11:01,570 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 3: things that are necessary, one is to define that destination. 200 00:11:05,380 --> 00:11:09,179 Speaker 3: What is missional faithfulness? What is the mission? I love 201 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 3: that you have that clearly articulated. And then the second is, 202 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: and do the work. Connect today the decisions that I make, 203 00:11:15,260 --> 00:11:18,780 Speaker 3: the thoughts, attitudes, and behaviors that Are they in alignment 204 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: with what I said that mission is for my life? 205 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,580 Speaker 3: And one really, really helpful way to think about this 206 00:11:24,700 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: is I will never forget being with my grandfather when 207 00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:34,500 Speaker 3: he passed from this life into eternity and watching the 208 00:11:34,540 --> 00:11:39,300 Speaker 3: way that his wife, my grandma, grieved in that moment, 209 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,350 Speaker 3: watching the way that his family celebrated his life. And 210 00:11:43,380 --> 00:11:47,670 Speaker 3: it was so clear he finished well. Like he really, 211 00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:52,350 Speaker 3: really did. He finished well. And so maybe prompted by that, 212 00:11:52,809 --> 00:11:56,030 Speaker 3: maybe this is a little bit, you know, too much 213 00:11:56,070 --> 00:11:59,229 Speaker 3: of a downer for a podcast today. But like I 214 00:11:59,270 --> 00:12:01,969 Speaker 3: wrote my eulogy and I read it every year on 215 00:12:02,010 --> 00:12:05,390 Speaker 3: my birthday. And you know what that does? It clarifies 216 00:12:05,530 --> 00:12:08,220 Speaker 3: what I say will matter in the end. And then 217 00:12:08,260 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 3: I ask questions. Are the decisions that I'm making in 218 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,020 Speaker 3: alignment with that? And so whether it's that or whether 219 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 3: we're having a mission statement and regularly reflecting on it, 220 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,860 Speaker 3: I think staying on mission requires knowing what a life 221 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,829 Speaker 3: of faithfulness looks like. And again, for me, reading my 222 00:12:24,950 --> 00:12:28,929 Speaker 3: eulogy every day on my birthday, every year on my birthday, 223 00:12:29,630 --> 00:12:32,550 Speaker 3: that is a simple way to say, am I living 224 00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:34,730 Speaker 3: in alignment with what I say matters most? 225 00:12:35,530 --> 00:12:36,550 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so that is. 226 00:12:37,850 --> 00:12:40,250 Speaker 1: basically, if I could summarize what I think you're saying 227 00:12:40,350 --> 00:12:42,689 Speaker 1: is have something that will keep you away from some 228 00:12:42,730 --> 00:12:44,730 Speaker 1: of these misguided pursuits that you list. 229 00:12:44,590 --> 00:12:45,089 Speaker 2: In the book. 230 00:12:45,230 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: It's a way of reframing and refocusing where you're headed 231 00:12:50,059 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and constantly making those little course corrections in just the 232 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: same way. 233 00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:55,100 Speaker 2: And I love the analogy of the current. 234 00:12:55,940 --> 00:12:58,380 Speaker 1: You're going down a river and if you're not careful, 235 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,470 Speaker 1: you end up on the bank real quick. And so 236 00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:02,890 Speaker 1: you're constantly trying to make course corrections. You just can't 237 00:13:02,929 --> 00:13:04,970 Speaker 1: fall asleep in the canoe and hope that you'll make 238 00:13:05,010 --> 00:13:06,900 Speaker 1: it all the way down the river. Like There has 239 00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:09,740 Speaker 1: to be some activity on your part to keep yourself 240 00:13:09,820 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: moving in the right direction and avoid things and all 241 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:13,220 Speaker 1: that kind of good stuff. 242 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 2: It's a great analogy. 243 00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:18,949 Speaker 1: So that's sort of the kernel here is let's have 244 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,449 Speaker 1: something that refocuses us and helps us to stay on 245 00:13:22,530 --> 00:13:26,309 Speaker 1: the right path, on the right trajectory, and avoid. 246 00:13:26,030 --> 00:13:28,209 Speaker 2: Some of these other misguided pursuits that we could go into. 247 00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:34,270 Speaker 3: Well summarized, well said. And I think the piece that 248 00:13:34,290 --> 00:13:37,730 Speaker 3: has been so sobering to me is as we had 249 00:13:37,770 --> 00:13:41,540 Speaker 3: the privilege of having conversations with leaders that lost their 250 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 3: way and shared so vulnerably, transparently, and then doing the 251 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,780 Speaker 3: research on what can we learn from some of these 252 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,900 Speaker 3: well-known situations, almost all of them said some version of, 253 00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:57,309 Speaker 3: all of a sudden, I realized that dot, dot, dot. 254 00:13:58,150 --> 00:14:00,620 Speaker 3: But it's never all of a sudden. It is a 255 00:14:00,929 --> 00:14:06,620 Speaker 3: thousand small decisions and small compromises compounded by time. And 256 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 3: so that is one of the pieces. It's like knowing 257 00:14:10,179 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 3: it and then doing it. And again, kind of the 258 00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:14,500 Speaker 3: case study that we look in the book from a 259 00:14:14,540 --> 00:14:18,460 Speaker 3: scriptural perspective is King Solomon. He wrote the book of Proverbs. 260 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:22,340 Speaker 3: So many of the book of Proverbs are wisdom. And 261 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: yet you look at his life and it's like you 262 00:14:24,820 --> 00:14:27,940 Speaker 3: knew you just didn't do. And again, this is not 263 00:14:27,980 --> 00:14:30,239 Speaker 3: throwing shade on King Solomon. This is like, and in 264 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: your life, Peter, where is there a gap between what 265 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,380 Speaker 3: you say and what you do? And it won't make 266 00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:39,590 Speaker 3: a big difference today, but you don't do that again 267 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:42,070 Speaker 3: and again. So we really wanted to get practical, to 268 00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:46,250 Speaker 3: get concrete. And what are the attitudes and actions that 269 00:14:46,530 --> 00:14:50,250 Speaker 3: if we don't address them when compounded by time are 270 00:14:50,350 --> 00:14:52,630 Speaker 3: not going to lead to a place where we want 271 00:14:52,650 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 3: to be? You will never drift away. to the destination 272 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,740 Speaker 3: that you want. I guarantee that you're never going to 273 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 3: just drift to the right destination. 274 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:03,780 Speaker 1: So when you, you know, when you talk to these 275 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: leaders and you're having these conversations, just, I know you 276 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: talk about them in the book and I thought the 277 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,550 Speaker 1: chapters where you kind of talked about these different misguided 278 00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:16,450 Speaker 1: pursuits were really significant. What are, what are some of 279 00:15:16,510 --> 00:15:20,570 Speaker 1: those and how did leaders really articulate? Yeah, they, they 280 00:15:20,610 --> 00:15:23,090 Speaker 1: realized them all of a sudden, but surely in reflection, 281 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: they could see the small missteps they made to start 282 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:30,260 Speaker 1: moving in these places. 283 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,540 Speaker 2: And what is that? Is that the case? 284 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: And then how would you recommend for current leaders to 285 00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: start noticing the smaller missteps as opposed to waiting to 286 00:15:41,380 --> 00:15:44,540 Speaker 1: realize all of a sudden I was off course? 287 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,950 Speaker 3: It was one of the most interesting pieces for me. 288 00:15:49,030 --> 00:15:53,510 Speaker 3: And it's sobering pieces is that almost everyone thought that 289 00:15:53,530 --> 00:15:57,570 Speaker 3: it would never happen to them. Almost everyone said, you know, 290 00:15:57,590 --> 00:16:00,620 Speaker 3: I'm not going to lose my way. And there was 291 00:16:00,650 --> 00:16:05,540 Speaker 3: this attitude of exceptionalism. Like, I'm the leader. It's not 292 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 3: going to happen to me. And I think that actually 293 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,340 Speaker 3: is one of the most dangerous pieces. And the converse 294 00:16:11,420 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: is true. The individuals that did have that long-term knew, 295 00:16:15,130 --> 00:16:17,290 Speaker 3: as I just love the hymn, come the fount of 296 00:16:17,370 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 3: every blessing, those words that are famous of prone to wander, Lord, 297 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:23,780 Speaker 3: I feel it, prone to leave the God I love. 298 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 3: That awareness leads to a seriousness of action that will 299 00:16:29,940 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: increase the likelihood that we will pursue where we want 300 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 3: to go and who we want to be in the 301 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,340 Speaker 3: years to come. And so maybe that's step number one 302 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,770 Speaker 3: is statistically important. you and I are more likely not 303 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: to finish well than to finish well. Like that should 304 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 3: get our attention. Like statistically, if it's true, more people 305 00:16:51,020 --> 00:16:54,780 Speaker 3: don't finish well than do finish well. And so believe, 306 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,020 Speaker 3: like prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to 307 00:16:58,180 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 3: leave the God I love. Like, so what do we do? 308 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 3: And I think that's where, again, hopefully there are some 309 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,540 Speaker 3: helpful pieces in the book that say, let's have the 310 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:13,790 Speaker 3: micro course recalibrations as opposed to waiting for some significant piece. 311 00:17:13,970 --> 00:17:14,669 Speaker 2: Down the road. 312 00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:18,250 Speaker 3: Let's have that minor course correction. And in many ways, 313 00:17:18,510 --> 00:17:22,100 Speaker 3: I'm not, there are separate books and separate resources for people, 314 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 3: you know, that this is trying to say, how can 315 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,060 Speaker 3: you and I make small changes right now to get 316 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,220 Speaker 3: back on track? And the assumption is we're all drifting. 317 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 3: The assumption is we all need that recalibration today in 318 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 3: certain parts of our life. to pursue that life of faithfulness. 319 00:17:41,540 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: So the small, small, small corrections each and every day, 320 00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:48,580 Speaker 3: I find to be the most helpful piece of really 321 00:17:48,619 --> 00:17:51,540 Speaker 3: having a life that stays on mission and believing, oh, 322 00:17:51,980 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 3: I have, and I am drifting. I just want to 323 00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:56,660 Speaker 3: see it as early as possible. 324 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 2: How do you see, so. 325 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:05,629 Speaker 1: When I've looked at this topic in the past, one 326 00:18:05,650 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: of the things I sort of landed on was accountability. And, 327 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:13,420 Speaker 1: you know, accountability can sort of become like that little 328 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,060 Speaker 1: group you get with and say, you know, what bad 329 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: things did you do this week? 330 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,149 Speaker 2: And, you know, whatever. And we tend to focus it. 331 00:18:21,170 --> 00:18:22,850 Speaker 1: I think a lot of times it's been focused on 332 00:18:22,869 --> 00:18:25,770 Speaker 1: like sexual sin and, you know, the very specific, at 333 00:18:25,810 --> 00:18:27,590 Speaker 1: least the ones I've been involved with, like, you know, 334 00:18:27,609 --> 00:18:29,510 Speaker 1: you get men together and that seems to be where 335 00:18:29,550 --> 00:18:32,369 Speaker 1: we end up gravitating toward or something like that. But 336 00:18:32,410 --> 00:18:35,230 Speaker 1: I think with leaders, you almost need different layers of 337 00:18:35,290 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: accountability there. And you need to make sure that they 338 00:18:38,830 --> 00:18:41,550 Speaker 1: actually have skin in the game? In other words, so 339 00:18:41,590 --> 00:18:44,350 Speaker 1: that they can be held accountable, that they're not getting 340 00:18:44,390 --> 00:18:48,070 Speaker 1: to a point where they feel above the law, let's say. 341 00:18:49,590 --> 00:18:50,790 Speaker 2: That's one question. 342 00:18:50,830 --> 00:18:53,770 Speaker 1: And then the other side of it is, I've always 343 00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:57,870 Speaker 1: worked as a leader in organizations under an authority, whether 344 00:18:57,890 --> 00:19:01,910 Speaker 1: that's a board, whether that's another leader in the organization. 345 00:19:03,310 --> 00:19:05,430 Speaker 1: How important is that cascade to this? 346 00:19:06,890 --> 00:19:07,130 Speaker 2: Right. 347 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,619 Speaker 1: Like, you know, an individual leader, a lot of the 348 00:19:09,660 --> 00:19:12,139 Speaker 1: pastors we see fall, let's say. And I know I 349 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,300 Speaker 1: appreciate in your book, you don't necessarily you're not focused 350 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: on just those big scandals that we've seen. But it 351 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: always makes you wonder, why wasn't there a group of 352 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: people around this person sort of constraining them and saying, hey, 353 00:19:27,859 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: you need to get back on track? Why didn't anyone 354 00:19:30,140 --> 00:19:33,970 Speaker 1: else notice that the canoe was gone? You know, taking 355 00:19:34,010 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: a different direction. So those are sort of my two questions. Like, 356 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:39,500 Speaker 1: maybe just talk a little bit more about accountability. I 357 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,860 Speaker 1: know you have the chapter on the island effect, right, 358 00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:45,340 Speaker 1: which sort of prompted my thinking in this direction, too. 359 00:19:45,420 --> 00:19:47,810 Speaker 2: But yeah, just your thoughts on that. 360 00:19:50,260 --> 00:19:53,780 Speaker 3: Every single one of us needs to be under the 361 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 3: authority of something or someone, right? Whether it's a board 362 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,830 Speaker 3: of directors, whether it's someone, we need it. And the 363 00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:06,460 Speaker 3: Lord Acton you know, power crops and absolute power crops. Absolutely. 364 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,500 Speaker 3: We've seen this and this is not just for heads 365 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,420 Speaker 3: of nations. This is heads of departments or heads of organizations. 366 00:20:13,780 --> 00:20:16,419 Speaker 3: I got a really interesting question from a colleague at 367 00:20:16,460 --> 00:20:20,060 Speaker 3: Hope International who said, hey, Peter, when was the last 368 00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 3: time that the board told you no for something? I thought, 369 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,270 Speaker 3: what a great question. That's a really insightful question. We 370 00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,190 Speaker 3: all need to be under authority. We all need to 371 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:36,490 Speaker 3: have that. And I could give several examples of that 372 00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:40,530 Speaker 3: in that. And I state that as a wonderful thing. 373 00:20:40,710 --> 00:20:42,850 Speaker 3: The moment that I'm not checked, the moment that we 374 00:20:42,910 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 3: are not checked on something is the moment that we 375 00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 3: are more likely to be off track and not to 376 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,879 Speaker 3: have anyone call it on us. But the most helpful 377 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,139 Speaker 3: thing to me is this idea of constellation mentoring. And 378 00:20:56,660 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 3: I heard about this and I put into practice in 379 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 3: my own life and If anyone wants to download kind 380 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,169 Speaker 3: of a form to create their own, you can go 381 00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:09,330 Speaker 3: to howleaderslosetheirway.com. But in it, it's basically saying, let's look 382 00:21:09,369 --> 00:21:12,409 Speaker 3: at the relationships that we have as a constellation and 383 00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:16,680 Speaker 3: change mentoring from this one-on-one model to saying, no, let's 384 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:20,020 Speaker 3: think about the full range of relationships that we need 385 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,500 Speaker 3: in our life. And so it looks at mentoring, not 386 00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:24,659 Speaker 3: as a one-on-one, but what are the areas that we 387 00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 3: want to learn and grow? And who are the people 388 00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:29,450 Speaker 3: with intentionality that we have in our life? And then also, 389 00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:32,850 Speaker 3: kind of on the horizontal level, talk about our core four. 390 00:21:33,290 --> 00:21:36,630 Speaker 3: Who are those people that if it's 3am, you know, 391 00:21:36,650 --> 00:21:38,619 Speaker 3: you call them and you know, they're going to show up. 392 00:21:38,650 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: Who are those people that are literally doing life with you? 393 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: And does your calendar reflect that prioritization? When was the 394 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,260 Speaker 3: last time you had an opportunity to have a real conversation? 395 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,260 Speaker 3: And how big is your box of things that you 396 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,350 Speaker 3: know about yourself, but no one else knows? That is 397 00:21:55,390 --> 00:21:58,470 Speaker 3: a dangerous box. You want to get things out of 398 00:21:58,530 --> 00:22:01,550 Speaker 3: that box as quickly as possible. And then also thinking 399 00:22:01,590 --> 00:22:04,429 Speaker 3: about your prayer team, who is actually on the journey 400 00:22:04,510 --> 00:22:07,420 Speaker 3: with you. And then thinking about who are those individuals 401 00:22:07,460 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 3: that you are pouring. So it's a constellation. And every 402 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 3: January I look at that list and it has been 403 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 3: so helpful. It has been so helpful to just say, 404 00:22:17,420 --> 00:22:20,700 Speaker 3: I am prone to focus on work. I've got enough 405 00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:24,420 Speaker 3: going on with my family, I need this level of 406 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: intentionality to think about these relationships that are so important. 407 00:22:28,859 --> 00:22:31,500 Speaker 3: And so that's been a change in the way that 408 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:34,940 Speaker 3: I've structured my life. And it has made such a 409 00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:39,430 Speaker 3: dramatic impact. And then all that being said, if there 410 00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:43,730 Speaker 3: is no honesty, which is on you, if there's no honesty, 411 00:22:43,810 --> 00:22:46,470 Speaker 3: all those structures, all those relationships really don't matter a 412 00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 3: whole lot. We researched one well-known And it kind of 413 00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:55,419 Speaker 3: broke my heart to hear individuals that thought they were 414 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 3: in an accountability group, thought they were doing life together 415 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:02,020 Speaker 3: and had no idea that there was this complete separate 416 00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 3: part of the individual's life and feel like let down, 417 00:23:06,820 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 3: but also lied to. Like we wish that they had 418 00:23:10,420 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 3: let us know that they were struggling. We wish that 419 00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: we had been invited in because we would have been friends. 420 00:23:15,780 --> 00:23:18,420 Speaker 3: We would have been there. And so I think that's 421 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,139 Speaker 3: maybe a good element for me. How much in my 422 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 3: life is not just the relationships and structures, but am 423 00:23:25,980 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 3: I being honest? And how much is in that box 424 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,260 Speaker 3: of known to me, but not known to others? That's 425 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,460 Speaker 3: a dangerous box that we all have. 426 00:23:34,770 --> 00:23:37,510 Speaker 1: I looked at the constellation mentoring, and I know this 427 00:23:37,570 --> 00:23:40,170 Speaker 1: is kind of a negative analogy, but it struck me funny. 428 00:23:40,190 --> 00:23:42,230 Speaker 1: When I looked at it, what came to mind was 429 00:23:42,290 --> 00:23:46,630 Speaker 1: the panopticon, if you're familiar with that phrase. Michel Foucault, 430 00:23:46,690 --> 00:23:49,470 Speaker 1: he was like a French post-modernist and this really strange guy. 431 00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:50,970 Speaker 1: But in one of his books, he talks about this 432 00:23:51,290 --> 00:23:53,870 Speaker 1: construction of a prison that somebody did called the Panopticon. 433 00:23:54,590 --> 00:23:58,109 Speaker 1: And the idea was that at any given moment, the 434 00:23:58,130 --> 00:24:02,070 Speaker 1: prisoners knew that they could be seen by the guard. And, 435 00:24:02,210 --> 00:24:03,590 Speaker 1: and so when you, when I was reading through the 436 00:24:03,630 --> 00:24:07,950 Speaker 1: constellation mentoring stuff, I was like, that's essentially what this is. There's, 437 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,820 Speaker 1: there's no time in my life where someone couldn't see 438 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:16,620 Speaker 1: what I'm doing and that that would, that would, change 439 00:24:16,660 --> 00:24:18,060 Speaker 1: the way I behave in that moment. 440 00:24:19,010 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 2: Right. 441 00:24:19,330 --> 00:24:23,669 Speaker 1: Just having someone else be aware of what I'm thinking, 442 00:24:23,770 --> 00:24:26,470 Speaker 1: what I'm doing, how I'm acting, how I'm spending my money, 443 00:24:26,530 --> 00:24:29,490 Speaker 1: how I'm, you know, all these other things I need 444 00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:34,180 Speaker 1: to like recognize that there's somebody always watching and that 445 00:24:34,220 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 1: should curtail some of my behavior. So yeah, that's where 446 00:24:37,340 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: my head went with the constellation mentoring, which I thought 447 00:24:40,420 --> 00:24:41,980 Speaker 1: was really a great concept. 448 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,770 Speaker 3: So. I have not heard of that. And as soon 449 00:24:45,810 --> 00:24:47,710 Speaker 3: as this is over, I'm going to be Googling some 450 00:24:47,770 --> 00:24:51,630 Speaker 3: images of Panopticon, which just has a cool name too. 451 00:24:51,650 --> 00:24:52,350 Speaker 3: There we go. 452 00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:53,109 Speaker 2: It does. 453 00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:58,950 Speaker 1: It does have a cool name. So I'm interested. I mean, 454 00:24:59,380 --> 00:25:05,190 Speaker 1: every time I've thought through these issues, right. Um, mission drift, 455 00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:09,230 Speaker 1: personal drift, um, you know, uh, the way that sort 456 00:25:09,250 --> 00:25:13,149 Speaker 1: of power corrupts, uh, I get into this space of 457 00:25:13,460 --> 00:25:19,770 Speaker 1: how do we distinguish between power and responsibility? And so I, 458 00:25:20,060 --> 00:25:23,940 Speaker 1: I've been in positions where my responsibility was to, uh, 459 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,570 Speaker 1: increase enrollment in, you know, a particular program. And, and so, uh, 460 00:25:30,170 --> 00:25:33,010 Speaker 1: while there's a way to do that, that's very, uh, 461 00:25:34,530 --> 00:25:39,230 Speaker 1: easy if you have the collaboration around you. Within an organization, oftentimes, 462 00:25:39,290 --> 00:25:42,550 Speaker 1: you know, one person's goal isn't shared by everyone else. 463 00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:43,609 Speaker 2: There's an alignment issue. 464 00:25:44,570 --> 00:25:47,169 Speaker 1: And so you tend to start to play the politics 465 00:25:47,290 --> 00:25:49,690 Speaker 1: or there's a temptation to start playing the politics, to 466 00:25:49,710 --> 00:25:54,740 Speaker 1: start cutting corners, to start ignoring institutional things, right? How 467 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,540 Speaker 1: do you see within the dynamics of an organization, how 468 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: do those influence a leader to drift? In other words, 469 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: they have the responsibility to do X, but their organization 470 00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:12,780 Speaker 1: is sort of chafing against them. And so they either 471 00:26:12,820 --> 00:26:19,270 Speaker 1: have to fail in their responsibilities or do things that 472 00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:22,109 Speaker 1: maybe they shouldn't do. Did you find any of that 473 00:26:22,630 --> 00:26:23,330 Speaker 1: kind of dynamic? 474 00:26:26,010 --> 00:26:28,709 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the pieces that, again, this is 475 00:26:28,750 --> 00:26:33,750 Speaker 3: with a healthy awareness is We are such master justifiers 476 00:26:34,350 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 3: in our own life. We're so good at. 477 00:26:38,859 --> 00:26:38,979 Speaker 2: It. 478 00:26:39,020 --> 00:26:42,179 Speaker 3: We're just masterful at it. And again, this relates to 479 00:26:42,220 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 3: kind of all needing people to be in our life 480 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 3: and to call us on it. But I think we are, again, 481 00:26:49,030 --> 00:26:53,250 Speaker 3: coming through this research and study, I have a heightened 482 00:26:54,050 --> 00:27:00,010 Speaker 3: awareness of my own ability to justify things that I 483 00:27:00,609 --> 00:27:04,290 Speaker 3: want to do that might not be best in it. 484 00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:07,510 Speaker 3: And I think one of the antidotes to that, because 485 00:27:07,550 --> 00:27:12,490 Speaker 3: it's really, again, money, sex, and power, like those have 486 00:27:12,510 --> 00:27:15,270 Speaker 3: been around for a long time is what have derailed people. 487 00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:17,990 Speaker 3: And we're really talking about power in this. And so 488 00:27:18,130 --> 00:27:21,250 Speaker 3: how do we deal with power? And what does it 489 00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:25,210 Speaker 3: look like for us to use that, steward that well? 490 00:27:26,260 --> 00:27:29,139 Speaker 3: And it was fascinating as we started looking at individuals 491 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,500 Speaker 3: that had lived well. One of the other surprising pieces 492 00:27:32,540 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 3: that we heard again and again is that they intentionally 493 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 3: had downward mobility. They intentionally said, I'm in a position 494 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,619 Speaker 3: of power and I'm going to do actions that are 495 00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:48,980 Speaker 3: not just good for the organization. Servant leadership is not 496 00:27:49,180 --> 00:27:51,659 Speaker 3: necessarily just good for the organization. I never thought of 497 00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:54,010 Speaker 3: it this way, but servant leadership is good for our 498 00:27:54,190 --> 00:27:58,050 Speaker 3: own hearts. There's something powerful about doing acts of service 499 00:27:58,109 --> 00:28:02,050 Speaker 3: that are unseen by others, except maybe the one who 500 00:28:02,530 --> 00:28:07,230 Speaker 3: knows us and made us. There's something powerful in that 501 00:28:07,410 --> 00:28:12,490 Speaker 3: downward service. So we heard examples of individuals that were 502 00:28:12,890 --> 00:28:15,550 Speaker 3: these leaders that were known for their faithfulness. And one 503 00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:18,020 Speaker 3: of the stories that we kept hearing was a specific 504 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,780 Speaker 3: example of a modern equivalent of them washing feet. And 505 00:28:21,820 --> 00:28:24,620 Speaker 3: it might be them shining shoes. It might be of them. 506 00:28:25,450 --> 00:28:29,889 Speaker 3: actively going in physically, helping every new staff member when 507 00:28:29,910 --> 00:28:31,609 Speaker 3: they would move. They would show up in that. It 508 00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 3: might be being the first person to go and clean 509 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 3: a latrine within the organization. But there was something about 510 00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:43,260 Speaker 3: this sense of title to make sure that I don't 511 00:28:43,460 --> 00:28:48,620 Speaker 3: abuse power. I'm going to intentionally do actions regularly that 512 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 3: are going to remind me that as a follower of Jesus, 513 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: I'm to take the posture of a foot washers. not 514 00:28:55,220 --> 00:28:58,010 Speaker 3: a king on a throne. And I thought that was 515 00:28:58,090 --> 00:29:01,650 Speaker 3: beautiful to just hear these really small but beautiful examples 516 00:29:02,150 --> 00:29:04,870 Speaker 3: of people that said, I got a healthy skepticism of 517 00:29:04,910 --> 00:29:06,990 Speaker 3: what power does to my own heart. And as a 518 00:29:07,150 --> 00:29:10,190 Speaker 3: check on that, I'm going to regularly clean a latrine 519 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 3: or shine shoes or take out the trash or something 520 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,860 Speaker 3: that's going to remind me I am not above anyone else. 521 00:29:15,940 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 3: We are in this together. And again, servant leadership has 522 00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 3: been proven to be good for organizational culture. I never 523 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 3: thought of it in this way, but servant leadership is 524 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 3: also good for our heart and our sense of living 525 00:29:28,860 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 3: on mission and on purpose. 526 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,470 Speaker 1: It's sort of it seems like it would just take 527 00:29:33,510 --> 00:29:36,290 Speaker 1: you off the stage. You know, it puts you in 528 00:29:36,330 --> 00:29:38,750 Speaker 1: the background, which isn't a bad thing for a leader, 529 00:29:39,710 --> 00:29:43,390 Speaker 1: you know. reminds you that you're here, yes, to lead, 530 00:29:44,030 --> 00:29:47,330 Speaker 1: but also to care for others. You don't lose, in 531 00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: other words, your Christian vocation simply because you're occupying a 532 00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:54,239 Speaker 1: position of leadership within an organization. 533 00:29:55,420 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 3: And one of the fascinating pieces that's directly connected to 534 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,310 Speaker 3: that was the leaders that finished well disproportionately were focused 535 00:30:03,550 --> 00:30:06,070 Speaker 3: on the next generation of leaders because they didn't see 536 00:30:06,110 --> 00:30:09,210 Speaker 3: that as threatening to them. They saw that as part of, hey, 537 00:30:09,290 --> 00:30:12,230 Speaker 3: I'm only here for a time. My identity is not 538 00:30:12,350 --> 00:30:15,580 Speaker 3: intertwined with this title that is only interim. And there 539 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 3: was an excitement about future leaders. There was an excitement 540 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 3: about saying, hey, I don't have to do that. Let 541 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 3: me introduce you to someone else that can do that. 542 00:30:26,660 --> 00:30:32,590 Speaker 3: And limits of self that provided opportunities for others that 543 00:30:32,650 --> 00:30:36,990 Speaker 3: ended up creating healthier organizations and was part of this, like, 544 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,820 Speaker 3: just get off the stage. Sometimes I was talking to 545 00:30:39,860 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 3: a friend and we're having this conversation of, if you 546 00:30:43,780 --> 00:30:46,900 Speaker 3: have not gone to a conference that you have not 547 00:30:46,940 --> 00:30:49,380 Speaker 3: been invited to speak at, that should be a blinking 548 00:30:49,460 --> 00:30:52,700 Speaker 3: red light. Like if you're showing up only in the 549 00:30:52,780 --> 00:30:56,650 Speaker 3: places where you have a role to play, like, Warning, warning, 550 00:30:56,730 --> 00:30:59,910 Speaker 3: warning in that. And to me, it's just like, where 551 00:30:59,930 --> 00:31:02,970 Speaker 3: are we showing up and just cheering on others in 552 00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:06,420 Speaker 3: this journey? And especially with leadership, I think it's a 553 00:31:06,540 --> 00:31:08,900 Speaker 3: good thing to think about what have I done to 554 00:31:08,940 --> 00:31:14,459 Speaker 3: say no to opportunity or platform intentionally to celebrate and 555 00:31:14,580 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 3: give that to someone else. That is a good check 556 00:31:17,060 --> 00:31:17,660 Speaker 3: on our own heart. 557 00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: So there's obviously a reciprocal relationship, I would assume, between 558 00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:25,140 Speaker 1: a leader and the organization. 559 00:31:26,290 --> 00:31:26,490 Speaker 2: Right. 560 00:31:26,550 --> 00:31:29,210 Speaker 1: And so a good leader can impact an organization in 561 00:31:29,230 --> 00:31:32,750 Speaker 1: a positive direction. It can draw an organization back from 562 00:31:32,790 --> 00:31:36,510 Speaker 1: mission drift. But I would also think that my wife 563 00:31:36,530 --> 00:31:39,170 Speaker 1: works in health care, and so she's worked at health 564 00:31:39,190 --> 00:31:43,490 Speaker 1: care organizations that really lean into the high reliability organizational frameworks. 565 00:31:44,130 --> 00:31:47,390 Speaker 1: So how do we arrange ourselves so that we make 566 00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:49,190 Speaker 1: it easy for people to make good choices? 567 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: Kind of that idea. 568 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,420 Speaker 1: When I oversaw aviation at Moody, they had a very 569 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,700 Speaker 1: similar thing. You build your processes, you build your structures, 570 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,660 Speaker 1: you arrange your organization so that it's easy for people 571 00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: to make the right decision. Because in those arenas, you 572 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,180 Speaker 1: don't want to leave people a lot of room to 573 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,620 Speaker 1: not make right decisions. So how do you see, did 574 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:18,870 Speaker 1: you see any correlation between how good leaders sort of 575 00:32:20,830 --> 00:32:26,990 Speaker 1: made their organizations better, and then how leaders who fell 576 00:32:27,570 --> 00:32:31,150 Speaker 1: had organizations that were drifting as well? Or was it 577 00:32:31,270 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: just a more isolated, the leader can drift when the 578 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 1: organization isn't, and vice versa? 579 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:46,380 Speaker 3: In the two-by-two of individual drift and organizational drift, there 580 00:32:46,460 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 3: is a high correlation between leader and organization, right? Those two, 581 00:32:51,420 --> 00:32:54,890 Speaker 3: there is certainly a correlation there, not exclusively, and it 582 00:32:54,970 --> 00:32:57,770 Speaker 3: is possible to do others. But to me, the most 583 00:32:57,830 --> 00:33:00,870 Speaker 3: interesting thing is, how do I not drift? And how 584 00:33:00,890 --> 00:33:03,770 Speaker 3: does the organization not drift? That's the bullseye right there. 585 00:33:03,810 --> 00:33:08,660 Speaker 3: That's what we're going after. Missional fidelity individually, as well 586 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,080 Speaker 3: as organizationally. That is the bullseye. That's what we're going after. 587 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,420 Speaker 3: And I found it really kind of, I love what 588 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,940 Speaker 3: you said. If I don't want to eat a ton 589 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,390 Speaker 3: of chocolate cake I probably shouldn't always have chocolate cake 590 00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 3: in my fridge, right? I mean, and to me, this 591 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 3: is the most important piece. We're trying to say, what 592 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 3: are the tools that we can put in our own 593 00:33:30,820 --> 00:33:34,270 Speaker 3: life that are going to help us? And, you know, 594 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,010 Speaker 3: one piece that I just never practiced or really thought 595 00:33:39,070 --> 00:33:44,510 Speaker 3: of until very recently, but fasting, it's just, I didn't 596 00:33:44,530 --> 00:33:47,070 Speaker 3: grow up with that as something, but yeah, but it's 597 00:33:47,170 --> 00:33:50,540 Speaker 3: good for my soul on that. And I, I've kind 598 00:33:50,580 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 3: of rediscovered that. And, and so then what's the structure 599 00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:57,140 Speaker 3: to put that in place? Well, I can put it 600 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 3: on my calendar. I can like, you can create structures 601 00:34:01,140 --> 00:34:03,550 Speaker 3: and I can go on the journey with a couple 602 00:34:03,630 --> 00:34:06,470 Speaker 3: of others. It's easier when someone else is doing it 603 00:34:06,530 --> 00:34:09,029 Speaker 3: with you and, and you fill in the blank, the 604 00:34:09,050 --> 00:34:11,589 Speaker 3: same thing for generosity, the same thing for the things 605 00:34:11,610 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 3: that we matter. And, And so I don't know, I 606 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:17,900 Speaker 3: guess the biggest word looking through this is awareness of 607 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,460 Speaker 3: how easy it is to lose our way and intentionality 608 00:34:21,580 --> 00:34:24,410 Speaker 3: of saying, let's make sure that we have the things 609 00:34:24,489 --> 00:34:28,370 Speaker 3: in place on a daily, weekly, quarterly, and annual. Let's 610 00:34:28,410 --> 00:34:31,589 Speaker 3: make sure we have the right pieces in place that 611 00:34:31,650 --> 00:34:36,390 Speaker 3: are going to help us from ourselves, that are going 612 00:34:36,410 --> 00:34:42,029 Speaker 3: to help us recognize where drift has impacted other individual's 613 00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:46,839 Speaker 3: that are more godly, more intelligent than I am. How 614 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 3: do we learn from those, put pieces in place in 615 00:34:49,700 --> 00:34:54,300 Speaker 3: our own life, um, and maybe build our own panopticon 616 00:34:54,340 --> 00:34:54,850 Speaker 3: or whatever. 617 00:34:55,469 --> 00:35:00,850 Speaker 1: Well, let me, let me ask this question. Is this 618 00:35:00,890 --> 00:35:03,250 Speaker 1: another one of those tensions that I, I think I 619 00:35:03,290 --> 00:35:06,570 Speaker 1: wrestled with personally. So I was a pretty aggressive guy 620 00:35:06,710 --> 00:35:08,740 Speaker 1: early on in my career. I was pretty young when 621 00:35:08,780 --> 00:35:12,180 Speaker 1: I got my first big job. Oh, right at the 622 00:35:12,219 --> 00:35:14,980 Speaker 1: end of my 20s and early 30s. And so, you know, 623 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: just sort of untempered aggression, ready to conquer the world 624 00:35:19,060 --> 00:35:22,779 Speaker 1: kind of feel to it. And as I went through 625 00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:25,300 Speaker 1: some executive coaching, as I, you know, just sort of 626 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,109 Speaker 1: suffered the slings and arrows that you do with leadership 627 00:35:28,140 --> 00:35:31,509 Speaker 1: and had a lot more experiences, I've calmed down an 628 00:35:31,570 --> 00:35:35,310 Speaker 1: awful lot over the years. And so how, you know, 629 00:35:35,350 --> 00:35:41,729 Speaker 1: as we're looking at developing this sort of non-missional drift postures, Right. 630 00:35:41,890 --> 00:35:44,730 Speaker 1: A real desire to be on mission, to serve God, 631 00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:48,469 Speaker 1: to sort of aim toward that. How do you see 632 00:35:48,510 --> 00:35:55,180 Speaker 1: that impacting leaders ambitions? You know, their their drive to 633 00:35:55,260 --> 00:36:01,140 Speaker 1: do X, does it just reorient? Does it does it 634 00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:04,540 Speaker 1: sort of go away a bit? You know, does it retrain, 635 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,489 Speaker 1: you know, does it transform itself into something else? How 636 00:36:07,510 --> 00:36:09,170 Speaker 1: does that play into all of this? 637 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,410 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting question. How have you seen 638 00:36:14,450 --> 00:36:15,310 Speaker 3: that in your life? 639 00:36:16,670 --> 00:36:19,050 Speaker 2: Well, I will say, I mean, I think. 640 00:36:20,570 --> 00:36:23,950 Speaker 1: One thing I've had to get used to is being 641 00:36:24,130 --> 00:36:30,340 Speaker 1: okay with failing. Like I can't expect the success just 642 00:36:30,380 --> 00:36:35,009 Speaker 1: to happen. And I can't make the success happen. And 643 00:36:35,050 --> 00:36:36,930 Speaker 1: that's been one of those that I've had to sit 644 00:36:36,969 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: back and say, this is really frustrating because I could 645 00:36:39,410 --> 00:36:42,540 Speaker 1: actually make this happen right now. Just the things I 646 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:46,540 Speaker 1: would have to do to make it happen aren't particularly appropriate. 647 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,500 Speaker 1: I mean, they probably aren't, you know, the most evil 648 00:36:49,540 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: thing in the world, but they certainly put me in 649 00:36:51,820 --> 00:36:55,340 Speaker 1: the driver's seat. And, you know, it runs the risk 650 00:36:55,380 --> 00:36:57,700 Speaker 1: of me doing things that I just don't feel are 651 00:36:57,739 --> 00:37:01,950 Speaker 1: appropriate anymore. And so like there has to be that 652 00:37:02,050 --> 00:37:04,419 Speaker 1: sort of what I've found is there's a level of comfort. 653 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,460 Speaker 2: I have to get into that that it's OK to fail. 654 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: And then I in doing that, I've had to sort 655 00:37:11,620 --> 00:37:15,450 Speaker 1: of wrestle through a I would say a season of passivity. 656 00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:19,830 Speaker 2: Right. Where that sort of left me with, OK. 657 00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:22,430 Speaker 1: I guess I'm just going through the motions and whether 658 00:37:22,489 --> 00:37:26,590 Speaker 1: this happens or not, you know, whatever. So now more 659 00:37:26,610 --> 00:37:30,610 Speaker 1: of a like, hey. The ambition has to be to 660 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: point to and glorify God in all things. That doesn't 661 00:37:34,219 --> 00:37:39,260 Speaker 1: preclude hard work. It doesn't preclude a vision for something 662 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: in the future. But what it does is it means 663 00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,410 Speaker 1: that my desire to point to and glorify God can 664 00:37:45,450 --> 00:37:49,970 Speaker 1: never be overshadowed by this vision for the future. 665 00:37:49,989 --> 00:37:53,300 Speaker 2: It has to be encompassed within it. Those are really key. 666 00:37:54,330 --> 00:37:56,210 Speaker 1: And again, I mean, I think that, you know, that 667 00:37:56,230 --> 00:37:58,890 Speaker 1: sort of arc for me took place over maybe a year, 668 00:37:59,290 --> 00:38:00,850 Speaker 1: year and a half after I switched out of higher 669 00:38:00,930 --> 00:38:03,890 Speaker 1: ed and came over into a nonprofit organization. Like that 670 00:38:03,969 --> 00:38:08,790 Speaker 1: transition was sort of a reflective time for me. But yeah, 671 00:38:08,810 --> 00:38:12,970 Speaker 1: I mean, even now, I think it's difficult being involved 672 00:38:13,010 --> 00:38:18,660 Speaker 1: in entrepreneurial ventures and different things like that to move 673 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 1: with the same sort of ambition I did early on 674 00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:27,460 Speaker 1: in my career, right? While also, and I would say primarily, 675 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,219 Speaker 1: demonstrating the sort of character that I feel is commensurate 676 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,500 Speaker 1: with a person who claims to be a Christian. 677 00:38:36,420 --> 00:38:43,469 Speaker 3: So good. Yeah. No, well said. Yeah. Maybe just echoing that, 678 00:38:43,830 --> 00:38:50,109 Speaker 3: I find that over time, I hopefully am elevating what 679 00:38:50,170 --> 00:38:53,009 Speaker 3: Jesus summarized as what it's all about. You want to 680 00:38:53,050 --> 00:38:56,730 Speaker 3: summarize all the law and commandments? Here we go. Love 681 00:38:56,770 --> 00:39:00,810 Speaker 3: God and love your neighbor. And sometimes if we are 682 00:39:00,910 --> 00:39:03,690 Speaker 3: going about the goals that we have in a way 683 00:39:03,770 --> 00:39:08,669 Speaker 3: that actually is not loving of neighbor or is not 684 00:39:08,830 --> 00:39:14,780 Speaker 3: in alignment, and that hopefully is growing sensitivity that our plans, 685 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,219 Speaker 3: our goals, our objectives, what we're going after cannot undermine us. 686 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,420 Speaker 3: Those pieces of loving God and loving others. And so 687 00:39:23,460 --> 00:39:26,650 Speaker 3: hopefully having a little bit more awareness and sensitivity to, yeah, 688 00:39:26,670 --> 00:39:29,530 Speaker 3: you're going after that goal. Do you realize you're crushing 689 00:39:29,570 --> 00:39:35,020 Speaker 3: the staff? right now in that pursuit? And those two 690 00:39:35,100 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 3: should not be able to fit together if we really 691 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 3: have our loves in the right prioritization. So I'm still 692 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 3: big on like, yeah, let's go. Let's run. Let's be 693 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,259 Speaker 3: excellent in the work that we do. And let's make 694 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 3: sure we also are keeping what we're told is the 695 00:39:52,020 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 3: summary of it all, first and forefront in our minds. Yeah. 696 00:39:59,010 --> 00:40:01,629 Speaker 1: Last, we're getting toward the end of the interview here. 697 00:40:01,670 --> 00:40:03,489 Speaker 1: So I want to, I wanted to dive into one 698 00:40:03,590 --> 00:40:07,230 Speaker 1: other chapter, which is that the need for speed. I 699 00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:09,089 Speaker 1: thought that was like when I was reading through the 700 00:40:09,310 --> 00:40:11,730 Speaker 1: table of contents and kind of deciding which chapters to 701 00:40:11,750 --> 00:40:12,170 Speaker 1: start with. 702 00:40:12,350 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily read them all in order. 703 00:40:16,060 --> 00:40:17,980 Speaker 1: The need for speed caught my eye because I'm like, 704 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,950 Speaker 1: that's not what I would have that is not the 705 00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:23,529 Speaker 1: title I would have expected in a mission drift book. 706 00:40:24,270 --> 00:40:26,430 Speaker 2: So can you talk about that chapter just a little bit? 707 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, that was one of my favorite parts of 708 00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 3: the research because I did get the opportunity to go 709 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 3: in a friend's car. That is a performance, uh, vehicle 710 00:40:37,860 --> 00:40:40,950 Speaker 3: that is very different from the vehicle that I drive. Uh, 711 00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:46,330 Speaker 3: and in this vehicle, it was fascinating that, uh, when 712 00:40:46,350 --> 00:40:50,420 Speaker 3: you're in sport mode, um, it like literally the dashboard 713 00:40:50,540 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 3: blacks out. It literally, everything blacks out. 714 00:40:53,219 --> 00:40:53,740 Speaker 2: And why? 715 00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 3: Because the automaker said, your focus has to be on 716 00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:00,980 Speaker 3: one place in one place zone. And it's just the 717 00:41:01,060 --> 00:41:04,049 Speaker 3: road right in front of you. And I asked the driver, um, 718 00:41:04,210 --> 00:41:06,469 Speaker 3: as well, I was like, what is it like when 719 00:41:06,510 --> 00:41:08,710 Speaker 3: you're doing that? He's like, I am not seeing out 720 00:41:08,730 --> 00:41:11,730 Speaker 3: the side, my peripheral. I have a narrow, the faster 721 00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:15,710 Speaker 3: I go, the narrower my area of focus is. And 722 00:41:15,750 --> 00:41:18,589 Speaker 3: I thought that's a pretty good analogy. Uh, for all 723 00:41:18,610 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 3: of us. The faster that we go, our ability to 724 00:41:22,180 --> 00:41:24,540 Speaker 3: see the impact on the people that are closest to us, 725 00:41:24,700 --> 00:41:27,180 Speaker 3: it goes away. I'm not able to see the impact 726 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,500 Speaker 3: on my kids and on my spouse. I'm not able 727 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,380 Speaker 3: to see the impact because I am so focused on 728 00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:36,620 Speaker 3: my little narrow window of what I'm going after. And 729 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,570 Speaker 3: that is a dangerous place to be. And as it 730 00:41:38,610 --> 00:41:41,009 Speaker 3: relates to mission drift, when I'm focused on that, you 731 00:41:41,030 --> 00:41:43,570 Speaker 3: know what I'm not seeing? I'm not seeing where I 732 00:41:43,810 --> 00:41:47,090 Speaker 3: actually am. I'm not able to see Am I at 733 00:41:47,130 --> 00:41:49,870 Speaker 3: a place of health in my relationship with Christ? I'm 734 00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:51,770 Speaker 3: not able to see, am I a place of health 735 00:41:52,270 --> 00:41:55,250 Speaker 3: in just even my physical body? Like, no, because I 736 00:41:55,330 --> 00:41:58,509 Speaker 3: am exclusively focused on that. And I think this is 737 00:41:58,590 --> 00:42:01,850 Speaker 3: where oftentimes we believe that we're given nine commandments and 738 00:42:01,930 --> 00:42:06,250 Speaker 3: one suggestion of actual, like we're supposed to be people 739 00:42:06,310 --> 00:42:09,870 Speaker 3: that stop, that pause. And part of the gift of 740 00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:13,799 Speaker 3: that is to look around again when you slow down, 741 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,860 Speaker 3: You can look around a little bit more and say, 742 00:42:17,340 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 3: where am I drifting? Where am I on track? And Lord, 743 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 3: would you help me to get back on track? And 744 00:42:23,380 --> 00:42:27,420 Speaker 3: if we're going so fast, we never, ever, ever will 745 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 3: have the ability to swivel our head and to actually 746 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 3: look around at where we currently are. And that leads us, 747 00:42:33,340 --> 00:42:37,549 Speaker 3: as we previously shared, all of a sudden, I realized 748 00:42:38,130 --> 00:42:40,410 Speaker 3: that I was not in a good place, even though 749 00:42:40,430 --> 00:42:43,750 Speaker 3: there probably were some warning signs along the way. 750 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 1: So I'll ask this sort of as the closing question. 751 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: You know, we've talked about awareness. We've talked about sort 752 00:42:50,739 --> 00:42:54,500 Speaker 1: of the constellation of accountability. If somebody is listening right 753 00:42:54,540 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: now and they're a leader and they're saying, gosh, I 754 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 1: don't have any of this. I don't even know where 755 00:42:58,340 --> 00:43:00,710 Speaker 1: to start. So now I'm aware that I could fail. 756 00:43:01,010 --> 00:43:02,530 Speaker 1: I'm aware that I'm likely to fail. 757 00:43:03,330 --> 00:43:03,549 Speaker 2: Right. 758 00:43:05,330 --> 00:43:07,969 Speaker 1: Where do you think is a good first step for 759 00:43:08,050 --> 00:43:11,029 Speaker 1: folks beyond awareness, beyond the constellation, beyond some of the 760 00:43:11,050 --> 00:43:11,770 Speaker 1: things we've mentioned? 761 00:43:11,790 --> 00:43:13,509 Speaker 2: What other tip would you give people to say? 762 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:16,400 Speaker 1: If you're not doing this, this would be a great 763 00:43:16,460 --> 00:43:20,320 Speaker 1: thing to consider so that you can avoid mission drift. 764 00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:25,819 Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, it does relate to a little bit 765 00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 3: of what we were already talking. I think you want 766 00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:33,410 Speaker 3: to take the first step, have an honest conversation with 767 00:43:33,950 --> 00:43:37,969 Speaker 3: a friend and say, I've got some concerns right now 768 00:43:38,190 --> 00:43:40,090 Speaker 3: and I would love to be on the journey with you. 769 00:43:40,770 --> 00:43:46,819 Speaker 3: What a great starting point of that. And isolation is 770 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,700 Speaker 3: another one of those blinking red lights that we need 771 00:43:50,739 --> 00:43:53,879 Speaker 3: to pay attention to. So I don't know. First for me, 772 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,660 Speaker 3: you get one phone call before you end up in jail. 773 00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:58,060 Speaker 3: Don't make the call when you're in jail. You get 774 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 3: one call before you end up in jail. Make that 775 00:44:00,540 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 3: call now and say, I would love to be on 776 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,420 Speaker 3: the journey and don't be afraid to go first. Say, 777 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 3: I got some questions about kind of where I am 778 00:44:09,620 --> 00:44:12,739 Speaker 3: right now and I just love to go on the 779 00:44:12,780 --> 00:44:16,370 Speaker 3: journey with you. And my guess is whoever you're sharing with, 780 00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:20,610 Speaker 3: they got some stuff too. They're going to be on 781 00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:22,930 Speaker 3: the journey with you. And I don't know. I just 782 00:44:22,950 --> 00:44:24,970 Speaker 3: think that is such a huge part of this is 783 00:44:25,219 --> 00:44:30,140 Speaker 3: who are we doing life with and how much, yeah, 784 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,700 Speaker 3: are we brave enough? Are we courageous enough to say, 785 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,169 Speaker 3: I've got some questions. I've got some concerns about how 786 00:44:37,230 --> 00:44:41,580 Speaker 3: I'm living. Um, and I don't know if left unchecked 787 00:44:42,020 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 3: this path that I'm on is going to lead to 788 00:44:43,739 --> 00:44:45,940 Speaker 3: the place that I want to go. Yeah. 789 00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:49,360 Speaker 2: Very good. Well, Peter, thanks so much for being on 790 00:44:49,380 --> 00:44:49,739 Speaker 2: the show. 791 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: Uh, why don't you get the website one more time 792 00:44:52,340 --> 00:44:54,260 Speaker 1: and then we'll also include in the show notes, but 793 00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: go ahead and give the website one more time for 794 00:44:56,219 --> 00:44:56,529 Speaker 1: the book. 795 00:44:57,690 --> 00:44:58,169 Speaker 3: Super kind. 796 00:44:58,190 --> 00:44:58,370 Speaker 2: Yeah. 797 00:44:58,469 --> 00:45:01,270 Speaker 3: How leaders lose their way.com. And there's a ton. You 798 00:45:01,310 --> 00:45:03,430 Speaker 3: don't even have to read the book. Like there's a 799 00:45:03,450 --> 00:45:05,910 Speaker 3: bunch of tools that hopefully are helpful to people that 800 00:45:05,930 --> 00:45:07,810 Speaker 3: want to put some of these ideas into practice. So 801 00:45:08,170 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 3: Just the title of the book, How Leaders Lose Their 802 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,330 Speaker 3: Way dot com. Okay. 803 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,980 Speaker 1: And we'll have the link in the show notes. So 804 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,080 Speaker 1: IVP gives us 20% discount. So if you use the code, 805 00:45:20,180 --> 00:45:22,460 Speaker 1: if you buy it off IVP Press and you use 806 00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:24,700 Speaker 1: the code, you get it for 20% off. I'd really 807 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:26,779 Speaker 1: recommend the book. I enjoyed reading through it. I think 808 00:45:26,820 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating study. And I love the shift from 809 00:45:29,989 --> 00:45:33,549 Speaker 1: organizational mission trip to personal mission drift. I think when 810 00:45:33,570 --> 00:45:36,070 Speaker 1: I read the introduction, that just really caught my attention. 811 00:45:36,130 --> 00:45:39,830 Speaker 1: So this has been a fun conversation, man. I really 812 00:45:39,870 --> 00:45:41,730 Speaker 1: appreciate you being here. And yeah. 813 00:45:42,020 --> 00:45:45,420 Speaker 2: Thanks for the work. It's really insightful and helpful. 814 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,500 Speaker 3: Both ways. Come on, let's go. Let's finish well. 815 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,270 Speaker 2: Here we go. Definitely. All right, everybody. 816 00:45:53,310 --> 00:45:56,330 Speaker 1: Well, check out How Leaders Lose Their Way. Click that 817 00:45:56,370 --> 00:45:58,969 Speaker 1: link in the show notes. Follow the show. And thanks 818 00:45:58,989 --> 00:46:00,830 Speaker 1: for sticking with us. We will catch you on the 819 00:46:00,870 --> 00:46:02,490 Speaker 1: next episode of Thinking Christian. 820 00:46:02,530 --> 00:46:03,230 Speaker 2: Take care, everybody. 821 00:46:04,210 --> 00:46:05,700 Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team 822 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,140 Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the 823 00:46:08,180 --> 00:46:11,770 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find 824 00:46:11,850 --> 00:46:15,210 Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got 825 00:46:15,250 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.