1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian on 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: doctor James Spencer, and today I'm joined by John stone Street, 3 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: who is the president of the Coulson Center, and we're 4 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: going to be discussing the Truth Rising project that's a 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: collaboration between Focus on the Family and Coulson Center. So John, 6 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Thanks for being here. 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 2: Hey, it's great to be on with you. Thanks so much. 8 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: Talk to me a little bit about maybe how this 9 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: project came about initially, you know what prompted Coulson Center 10 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: and Folks on the Family to join forces on this one. 11 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 3: Well, you know, the Coulson Center is one of the 12 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 3: namesake organizations of the late Chuck Coulson, who was in 13 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 3: the tradition of Francis Schaeffer and some others who really 14 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 3: thought it was essential for Christians that sought paying attention 15 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 3: to what's happening in culture and take on an understanding 16 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 3: of their own calling to the culture around them. In 17 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 3: other words, that Christianity and salvation was personal but not private, 18 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 3: that it also had to do with more than just 19 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 3: our personal salvation and getting to Heaven when we die. 20 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: Of course, Chuck spent a lot of time talking about worldview, 21 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 3: helping Christians think about their faith not just kind of 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 3: experience it, but also apply it to the big cultural 23 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 3: issues of the day. And he also looked for those 24 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 3: kind of meta trends. And Focus on the Family, of course, 25 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 3: is noticed not known for well the family, but years 26 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 3: ago they did something called The Truth Project with doctor 27 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 3: Dell Tackett, which was an attempt to show kind of 28 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 3: Christianity as a worldview and it was a whole wonderful. 29 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 2: Series that was shared in a lot of churches. 30 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 3: So you know, Jim Daily, the president of Focus on 31 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 3: the Family, and myself, we were together not that long, 32 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,199 Speaker 3: but before this project started, and he had a vision 33 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 3: for wanting to do something more. I had this sense 34 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: too that a lot of the things that Schaefer and 35 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: Chuck Colson had prophesied and predicted, you know, had come true. 36 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: I'll just give you an example. I know I look. 37 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 3: Super, super young, and it's because I am. I don't 38 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: have your guns, by the way, those are those you know. 39 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 3: I wear a sweater and not a T shirt. But listen, 40 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 3: when I first started teaching on worldview, like twenty five 41 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 3: years ago, it was a lot of really important theory, right, 42 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 3: like if you know, we would compare Christianity with atheism 43 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 3: or naturalism or postmodernism. We would say things like, look, 44 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 3: if there is no God, then there's no source of morality. 45 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 3: There's no source for me. It's a true hypothetical. If 46 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 3: postmodernism is right, and everyone could determine their own view 47 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 3: of what's real and what's true, then up can mean 48 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 3: down and left can mean right, and boy can mean girl. 49 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 3: That was our hypotheticals. That last one was debated last 50 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,279 Speaker 3: week in the Supreme Court. 51 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: Right. 52 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 3: So, in other words, a lot of these things that 53 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,360 Speaker 3: people were thinking about and talking about twenty thirty, forty 54 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 3: fifty years ago have certainly come to pass, and we 55 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: needed a new framework. What moment are we in? What 56 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 3: does it mean to be a Christian in this moment? 57 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 3: And takes seriously the fact that God wanted us here 58 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 3: and what does it mean for us to be faithful? 59 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: So that's really what the project's all about. 60 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: And the project has You've got a movie, Yeah, you know, 61 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: there's video resources a movie, but there's also a study 62 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: guide correct. 63 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 3: And well there's actually a movie and a study so 64 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: there's two different kind of sets of videos that the 65 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: documentary features somebody who I think is a Gandolf for 66 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 3: our age, and that's Ozyennis. 67 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 2: There's one and only Oz yet. 68 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 3: Plus he's got the greatest accent ever, right, so he's brilliant. 69 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so much from Oz. 70 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 3: And Oz is calling this moment a civilizational moment. In 71 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: other words, there are moments throughout history that you can 72 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: see where civilizations take this turn where they get kind 73 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 3: of clipped off from their roots, the things that animated them. 74 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: And what happens then is typically revolution or decline. Once 75 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 3: in a while you have an example of renewal, not. 76 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: Very many, but he believes we're at. 77 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: That that that that that that time for for the 78 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 3: Western world, that some of the ideas, which of course 79 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 3: came from Christianity, the idea that humans have been distinct value, 80 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 3: that there are eternal right and wrong to which everyone 81 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: even the king and the emperor and the government, is 82 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 3: accountable to. You know, that sort of thing, that there's 83 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 3: more than to reality than just this world. These are 84 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: these are kind of uh life giving roots. They animated 85 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 3: the Western world and one of the reasons it made 86 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: it so profound, so, you know, bringing more freedom to 87 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 3: more people. I'm not saying that everyone was a Christian 88 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 3: or we got it right. That's certainly not the case. 89 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 3: But we've certainly reached a tipping point, you know, we've 90 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: certainly hit a time where we're in a new moment, 91 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 3: and so now we've got to ask the question, well, 92 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 3: what does it mean for us to be faithful to 93 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 3: the Lord at this time and place in history? So 94 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 3: that's the documentary. It starts with that kind of framing, 95 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 3: and then it ends with stories of courage people who 96 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: I think demonstrate the answer to that question. 97 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: I'd love to get in to talk about some of 98 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 2: those things. 99 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 3: And then the study follows up on it, because the 100 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 3: study is really saying, well, what does it mean for 101 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,559 Speaker 3: us to step into our calling in this time and play? 102 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 3: So basically the math goes, you know, we're in a 103 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: civilizational moment. God has called us here, this is what 104 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 3: faithfulness can look like, and here's how we can take 105 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 3: our place as God has called us to do. 106 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 4: I'd like to talk about the stories as well. 107 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: I think one of the questions that I was sort 108 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: of thinking about after watching the documentary was you have 109 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: these stories of faithfulness in there, and I think what 110 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: I struggled with what I was thinking about was what 111 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: happens when faithfulness isn't effective. In other words, how hopeful 112 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: are you that this decline, the civilizational decline, that the 113 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: civilizational moment could be reversed through Christian faithfulness? And then 114 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: maybe after you answer that question, let's hop in and 115 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 1: talk about one or two of the stories they're featured 116 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: in the documentary. 117 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, look, first, my hope is not that 118 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: the civilizational decline is going to be reversed. The hope 119 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 3: is that the civilizational moment we're in is part of 120 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: itself a bigger story, the story of the Kingdom of God, 121 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 3: the story that Scripture tells from creation to new creation, 122 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 3: from the heavens and Earth to the new heavens and 123 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 3: new Earth. And you know, in the study we talk 124 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: about the Christian story as being true, and we describe 125 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 3: it in four chapters, Creation Fall, Redemption, Restoration. Now, anybody 126 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 3: that's been in a seminary or you know, or read 127 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: a worldview book knows that framework. 128 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 2: But and I think many people. 129 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 3: Would say, yeah, that's a good way of summarizing the 130 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 3: story that the Bible tells, but that's not really what 131 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 3: we're after. I think Creation Fall, Redemption Restoration is the 132 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 3: Biblical way of describing reality. In other words, it's not 133 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 3: the story the Bible tells, it's the story of the world, 134 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 3: and the Bible tells that story, and that's what we 135 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: have to believe that if we're in this moment of 136 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 3: civilization or decline, I don't know if it's a Bonhaffer 137 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 3: moment where everything we try is going to fail, or 138 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 3: if it's a will perforce moment in which God grants, 139 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: you know, grace and rewards the efforts of his people. 140 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: I don't know what it'll be. 141 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 3: So I think one of the things we have to 142 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 3: get straight, and I think the stories highlight this, and 143 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: certainly we spend a lot of time on this in 144 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: the study is that the hope of the world. And 145 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: this is what First Peter was all about. Peter wrote, 146 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 3: you know, to a group of Christians that are being persecuted, 147 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: and he called them people of hope, which is fascinating 148 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: because what we know from history is the persecution that 149 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: they were facing was about to get worse. In other words, 150 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 3: their hope was in the fact that their persecution subsided. 151 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: Their hope was something that had happened prior to their persecution. 152 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: What Peter says is the resurrection of Christ. And going 153 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: back to the brilliance of Chuck Holsen, not just because 154 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: it's my job and I have to, but because I 155 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 3: actually think it's right. 156 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: You've got used to say this. Despair is a sin. 157 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 3: Despair's a sin, not because we know things are going 158 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 3: to turn around, but despair is a sin because Christ 159 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 3: has risen from the dead, and we believe that's the 160 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 3: central event in the history of the world. We believe 161 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 3: that's the thing that defines human history, and so that's 162 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 3: where our hope is. You know, what's going to happen 163 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: to Western culture? Man, that's a great question. I mean, 164 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 3: let's be honest. I was just in South Korea just 165 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: a couple weeks ago and went to the National Museum 166 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: there in Seoul, and it tells of the kingdoms that existed, 167 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:00,040 Speaker 3: you know, in the past, mostly Buddhist or Confucian. And 168 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 3: when we think about civilizations, we almost are always in 169 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 3: a museum with. 170 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 2: A bunch of artifacts. 171 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 3: Right, We're not talking about the present, we're talking about history. 172 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 2: These things are dusty. 173 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 3: So there's no reason for us really to place our 174 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 3: hope in our what now, look, should we try to 175 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: save it? 176 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: Should we try to steward it. 177 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, because Western Siev is better than all the others 178 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,559 Speaker 3: that ever came before it, that's for sure. But our 179 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: hope is in Jesus Christ, and we got to make 180 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 3: that tangible. That's kind of what I mean when I 181 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: say the faith is personal, but it's not private. 182 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: This is public. 183 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 3: Jesus Christ is the hope of the world, and his 184 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: kingdom will never end. That's the story of the universe. 185 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 3: This moment we're in is serious, but it's understood in 186 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 3: light of that story, not the other way around. 187 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 4: No, I think that makes good sense. 188 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: It draws Christians underneath the truth in a way that 189 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: I think you're trying to get across in the documentary 190 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: and in the study is to say. 191 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 4: We are subject to the truth. 192 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: It has a claim on our lives, right, and so 193 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: we can really live no other way other than according 194 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: to the truth. This is what we're aiming for. Whether 195 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: or not living in that manner is effective at saving 196 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: Western civilization or you know, doing anything else is really 197 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: just secondary. This is the strategy we have to choose 198 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: because the Truth has a claim on us, The Gospel 199 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: has a claim on us. Christ has a claim on us, 200 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate that angle of the documentary, end 201 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: of your explanation of it. I think that's theologically really 202 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: sound good. 203 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, otherwise Colson would come back and haunt us from 204 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 3: the grave. 205 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 2: We want to keep those things right. 206 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 4: No, I think it's really difficult though. I mean the 207 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 4: line you all are the needle you're trying to thread. 208 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: It's easy to come in and say, hey, Christians, we 209 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: need to live for the truth because the truth is 210 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: going to fix the world around us. 211 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 4: And I think that's an exaggeration. 212 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: We may hope it fixes, you know, some of the 213 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: things around us, but we don't know that, and so 214 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: we live for the truth simply because it's the truth. 215 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 216 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: Look, Chuck's been a lot of the last twenty years 217 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 3: of his life. He died in twenty twelve. I know 218 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 3: that name is probably familiar for a lot of your listeners, 219 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 3: and maybe not for many others. I mean it's been 220 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: a while, but and you know, the last twenty years 221 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 3: of his ministry, Chuck wanted to go around and help 222 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 3: Christians think about the full ramifications of the truth of 223 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 3: the Christian worldview. 224 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: You know that this stuff was personal. 225 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 3: I mean, that's one of the great things that Christ 226 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 3: is the personal revelation of God. He became flesh and 227 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,359 Speaker 3: because of the spirit, like we have this personal relationship 228 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 3: with God, because of. 229 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 2: The work of Christ. 230 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 3: But that doesn't mean it's private and privatized Christianity, that 231 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: it's just me and Jesus, and that it doesn't have 232 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: anything to do with the world around us. 233 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 2: I mean, that's not the story the Bible tells. 234 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 3: The Bible tells the story of the creation of all things, 235 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 3: and the fall of all things, and the flood of 236 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 3: all things, and eventually the renewal and restoration of all things. 237 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 3: And so you know, there's a reason that you know 238 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 3: you think about Romans or Ephesians, that you have the 239 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 3: first half of both of those books telling us about 240 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 3: the brilliance of the work of God in Christ Jesus, 241 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: and then the second is all about and here's how 242 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 3: you relate to the authorities, And here's how you relate 243 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: to your spouse, and here's how you relate to your children, 244 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 3: and here's how you relate to your enemies, and here's 245 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 3: how you relate. And you see it in James, and 246 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 3: you see it in Peter, and Peter's like even here's 247 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 3: how you relate to your persecutors. Philippians like, here's how 248 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 3: you here's how you're supposed to react to prison. 249 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the Bible is. 250 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: Is very this worldly to borrow a phrase from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, 251 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: and Christians I think have have misunderstood that. 252 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 2: And that's It's one thing. 253 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 3: You know, when you're in a cultural moment where you 254 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 3: know pretty much everyone largely agrees with you. 255 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: But we're in a different moment. 256 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 3: We know that it's pretty hostile and and and I 257 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 3: think many people feel more hostile. I don't have to 258 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 3: go around like Chuck did trying to convince people to 259 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: think about the culture all of us, especially if we're parents. 260 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 2: I got four kids. I don't know about you. 261 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about culture stuff all the time because of 262 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 3: putting such pressure on my children and for many on 263 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 3: their grandchildren and so on. 264 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 2: So we still call. 265 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 3: To be people of hope in the darkest of times, 266 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 3: because Jesus Christ has risen from the dead, and yet 267 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 3: these truths in this hope has really practical and real 268 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 3: life application to be lived out. 269 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: You know, as I've done work on the intersection of 270 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: faith and technology, a lot of times I run into 271 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: people who are kind of skeptical about some of the 272 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: things that I say. Maybe they have a right to, 273 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes people can feel like, hey, this 274 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: whole anti technology bias and I'm not a luddite or 275 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: something like that, but there is a way to be 276 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: overly cautious about technology, and so some people take that 277 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:04,559 Speaker 1: to be alarmist. Right now, I'm not really I'm not 278 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: really thinking that, you know, AI is going to take 279 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 1: over the planet, or that the Internet should be you know, 280 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: thrown into the ocean and forgotten about forever. But at 281 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 1: the end of the day, there are some people out 282 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: there who just don't like to critique anything. 283 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 4: They don't like to see. 284 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: A negative word spoken about any of these cultural trends 285 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: that we see before us. And i'd imagine you're having 286 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: some of that come at you, you know, sort of 287 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: this isn't this a little alarmist? Like you're talking about 288 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: the decline of civilization, the the ending you know, of 289 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: the Western world to some degree, all because we're departing 290 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: from some you know, Judeo Christian framework for truth or 291 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: what have you. 292 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 4: I can imagine you getting those pushbacks. 293 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: Am I imagining that correctly, and yeah, am I imagining 294 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: that correctly? 295 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 4: And then if so, what are you doing about it? 296 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 2: Wow? Do you respond? Absolutely? 297 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: It's interesting though, I I think there's less than you know, 298 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: maybe there used to be, because I do think there 299 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 3: is a sense for a lot of people that the 300 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 3: theoretical has become much more palpable. I you know, I'm 301 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: a nerd, so I keep going back to philosophers who 302 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: have talked about this in the past. Frederick Nietzsche back 303 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 3: in eighteen eighty two, I think wrote the Parable of 304 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 3: the mad Man. It's one of the two places where 305 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 3: he talked about God is dead, you know, But this 306 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: one's interesting because the other one and the other parable. 307 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 3: Thus spakes Zarathrustra, which is a heck of a heck 308 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 3: of a title. He's basically articulating the promise of the 309 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: death of God for the future and the uber match 310 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 3: the superman and how human humanity can move forward, and 311 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: the Parable of the mad Man. He's warning of chaos. 312 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,320 Speaker 3: He's saying, Look, killing God is like unchaining the earth 313 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 3: from its son. So we're not going to have a 314 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 3: source of light or he We're going to lose our 315 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: sense of up and down, and then at the end 316 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 3: of this epic rant that this crazy man gives in 317 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 3: his parable, he looks around and says, oh, come too soon. 318 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: You know, deeds, though done, are going to take time 319 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: to be seen and heard and felt. And of course 320 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 3: he's writing that one hundred years ago, and I think 321 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: a lot of what he prophesied was coming, you know, 322 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 3: was really true, that there is an unsettling of up 323 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: and down. 324 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: You know. 325 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 3: Fifteen years ago a British newspaper surveyed a group of 326 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 3: young people and asked does life have meaning? And didn't 327 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 3: specify what meaning, just does life have meaning? And in 328 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 3: that survey fifteen years ago, nine out of ten said yes. 329 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 3: They disagreed on what it was, but they agreed that 330 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 3: life has meaning. Ten years after that, they did the 331 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 3: same survey and one out of ten said yes. 332 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: Wow. 333 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: You know, when you think about that kind of palpable divide, 334 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 3: think about just even the US, when was the last 335 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 3: time we were on the brink of such kind of 336 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 3: chaos as a nation, where we were divided state by 337 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 3: state over issues of such incredible moral significance. 338 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 2: Right, It's one thing to live in. 339 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: A world where we kind of all agree on where 340 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 3: we're going disagree on how to get there. But when 341 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: you're talking about disagreeing on what up and down is 342 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 3: and where we're trying to go, it becomes much more 343 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 3: you know, serious, and we're not even talking about kind 344 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 3: of the sexual chaos. And you know, Paul says that 345 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 3: when you send sexually, you sin against your own body. 346 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 3: I mean, we've just let an entire generation to sin 347 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 3: against themselves at a level really that you know, it's 348 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 3: hard to parallel other than if you go way back 349 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 3: to super pagan societies. So I think that sense maybe 350 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 3: is a little more palpable than it used to be. 351 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: And so yeah, we get accused of that. But the 352 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 3: other thing is, I think the question for me is 353 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 3: less how bad is it out there, although we have 354 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: to think about that, it's what kind of. 355 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 2: People are we? 356 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 3: So Peter Kraft, the Catholic apologist and philosopher, has a 357 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 3: line in one of his books, probably wrote a long 358 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: time ago, but he's talking about ethics, and he said, 359 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,199 Speaker 3: he said, you know, just about the time that we 360 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 3: went from a society where our weapons were bows and 361 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 3: arrows to now their thermonuclear bombs, we became moral infants. 362 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 3: It's a great line, because it's kind of like just 363 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: you know, as we went from you know, smartphones and 364 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 3: social media to artificial intelligence, we forgot who we were, 365 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: you know. 366 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: In other words, we're. 367 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 3: Profoundly One of the themes that comes up in all 368 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 3: the stories in the Truth Rising series and certainly in 369 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: the documentary. This is one of the things that the 370 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 3: interviews that Oz does with these experts, many of whom 371 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 3: aren't Christian there but are just kind of recognized as 372 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 3: generational experts. They point to the dehumanization and the loss 373 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 3: of our understanding of what it means to be human 374 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 3: as a central feature of this decay, of this decline 375 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 3: of the Western world and of the fragility of the 376 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 3: Western world. And so now our technologies are getting way 377 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 3: more invasive and way more quote unquote promising. But we 378 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: don't know human exceptionalism. We don't know what makes us 379 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 3: who we are. And I think that's the math. 380 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 2: That is worthy of. 381 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 3: Even if people are skeptical of your concerns about technology, dude, 382 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 3: keep speaking up, because you know, I think it's real. 383 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 4: Well, I think that's a really good articulation of it. 384 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: I just wrote a piece and was arguing that our 385 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,239 Speaker 1: character has to keep up with our capacity, yes, and 386 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 1: so as way things ramp up, we've got to have 387 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 1: sufficient character to execute on these Because technology, if you 388 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: go back all the way at Marshall, mccluan and these 389 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: kind of things, right, it amplifies our capacities. 390 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 4: And that's for good and bad. 391 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: And so what we end up with is sort of 392 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: the ability to magnify falsehood alongside magnifying truth. And there 393 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: has to be a serious account taken for which one 394 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: we're leaning into more, you know, Yeah, And I think 395 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 1: that's part of what I got out of this documentary. 396 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: I was able to watch the whole thing, and that's 397 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,040 Speaker 1: when I heard some of those experts kind of saying, look, 398 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: it's this dehumanization. 399 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 4: It's we've lost a sense of who we are. 400 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: Part of it is that we've just sort of slowly 401 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: decoupled ourselves from the glimpses of the good, the true, 402 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: and the beautiful that were shining through all over the place. 403 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: But it wasn't that, you know, to your point, we 404 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: weren't all Christians, we didn't all profess Jesus Lord. But 405 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: the good, the true, and the beautiful are available to us, 406 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 1: and we can recognize them and live underneath them. But 407 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,160 Speaker 1: as we slowly detach ourselves from those things, you're going 408 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: to see society begin to fray at the edges because 409 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: we're denying something fundamental about reality. 410 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 411 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're running against the grain of reality, right, I mean, 412 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: and you know, I sometimes talk about the difference between 413 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 3: gravity and a speed limit. You know, gravity is stuff 414 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: that's built into the fabric of the universe. No, you know, 415 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 3: culture we do stuff with the world and that's what 416 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 3: our culture is. But a speed limit is a social construct, 417 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 3: like we get together and we make stuff up. There's 418 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 3: very few things in the world that are really social constructs, 419 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 3: you know, like speed limits. But we have just become 420 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: the kind of a culture that is treating everything as 421 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 3: if it's a speed limit, as if everything can be renegotiated. 422 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 3: I mean, you think about the Obergefeld decision that redefined 423 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 3: marriage across the United States. Anthony Kennedy literally made that argument. 424 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,199 Speaker 3: He didn't say that we had gotten this wrong. What 425 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 3: he said was is now we're better people, and now 426 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 3: we know more, and now we you know, it was 427 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 3: a fascinating argument that now marriage needs to evolve to 428 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 3: keep up. Now and we've done the same thing with 429 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 3: what it means to be male and female. We've done 430 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 3: the same thing with our understanding of law and power. 431 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 3: And so you know, the thing is is you can 432 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 3: treat gravity like a speed limit. But I love that 433 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 3: line from Dallas Willard, and I think it's true for 434 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 3: both individuals and civilizations. And that's really the point of 435 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 3: Truth Rising. Willard says, you can't step off the roof 436 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 3: and then choose not to hit the ground. You know, 437 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 3: this is what we mean when we say ideas have consequences, 438 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 3: and bad ideas have victims, you know. And and that's 439 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 3: true for individuals, and it's also true, you know, for 440 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 3: cultures and communities and and and societies and and but 441 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 3: here's the other part of this too. I want to 442 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 3: make sure we get to this. One of the things 443 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 3: that has really informed the Truth Rising project. And I 444 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 3: owe this to Oz Gennis and his wonderful book The 445 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 3: Call years Ago, which I read about, you know, embracing 446 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 3: what God wants you to do and and kind of 447 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: perceiving that. He says, one of the things that has 448 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 3: kept us from really taking seriously our sense of calling 449 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 3: is we haven't taken seriously, or we haven't really understood 450 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: the seriousness of the hour, or as he puts it, 451 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: the ahwah. You know, he kind of sounds like Arnold 452 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 3: Schwarzenegger when he says it. The point is is he's saying, 453 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 3: he's saying, we have to understand our calling not just 454 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 3: in terms of what I like to do when I'm 455 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 3: gifted to do the gifts of the spirit, but also 456 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 3: in the time and place where God has put us in. 457 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 3: If you remember, in Act seventeen, Paul says something remarkable 458 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 3: when he's talking to the Epicurean and Stoic philosophers in Athens. 459 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 3: He says that God determines the exact times in which 460 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 3: we live in the boundaries of our dwelling place. Yes, 461 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 3: so we are called if this is such a crazy, pivotal, 462 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 3: untethered moment in human history or in the history of 463 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 3: the Western world. God wanted us in this moment and 464 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 3: not in another. So how do we step into the 465 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 3: fact that we have been called here? And so that 466 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 3: idea of being faithful and obedient leaving the results. 467 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: Up to him. 468 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 3: And I think that's what emerges out of the stories 469 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 3: in the documentary agree, is what that faithfulness can look like. 470 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 3: And how God can use it unexpectedly. 471 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think they also underscore that this that 472 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: faithfulness is not going to be without consequences. Oh and 473 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: so you know, I think we just have to sort 474 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: of put that out there, is that living according to 475 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: the truth doesn't necessarily mean prosperity and abundance. It comes 476 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: along with negative social consequences all over the place. And 477 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: I really thought the stories in the documentary illustrate that beautifully. 478 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 3: Well, you look, it begins with Jack Phillips, and I'm 479 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 3: partial to Jack. I've known Jack for a long time. 480 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 3: Jack is a baker in outside of Denver, Colorado, who 481 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 3: thirteen or fourteen years ago before the Obergefeld decision, a 482 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,439 Speaker 3: couple in Colorado, by the way, had a marriage amendment 483 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: that defined marriage between a man and woman at the time, 484 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 3: and a couple came in they had gotten married in 485 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: another state, two men, and asked them to bake the 486 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 3: same sex wedding cake. And he said no. I remember 487 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 3: being on my front porch and reading the newspaper and 488 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 3: first hearing Jack's name. You remember newspapers, those paper things. 489 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: That had worked on while. Yeah, but this kind of 490 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 2: illustrates my point. 491 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 3: It was a while ago, and I saw that story 492 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 3: and I thought two things. I'm like, how can he 493 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: be in trouble for not making a same sex wedding 494 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 3: cake because we don't have same sex weddings in Colorado. 495 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 2: And then the second thing I thought is, oh, man, 496 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 2: that dude's in trouble. 497 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 3: And because you remember the you remember the cultural vibe 498 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 3: at the time, you remember how the pressure and you know, 499 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 3: and that and that started what became three lawsuits and 500 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 3: a thirteen year assault from the state of Colorado, who 501 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: either did it themselves or in the second in the 502 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 3: case of the trial in particular, you know, allowed a 503 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 3: transgender man who appears as a woman, and Denver a 504 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 3: lawyer to go after him ruthlessly. And I've gotten to 505 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 3: know Jack, I know him as a friend, I consider 506 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 3: him a friend. And you think about what's happened. God 507 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 3: has secured God used his faithfulness to secure free speech 508 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 3: rights for millions of Americans. He's given courage to a 509 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: lot of people. I know of stories of people who 510 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 3: have heard his story, skeptics and got really mad at 511 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 3: him and picked up his book just to be madder 512 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 3: at him, and became Christians. I am hersty Ali Who's 513 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 3: another one of the stories we tell in the Truth 514 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 3: Rising documentary. She and One Venue pointed to that story 515 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 3: as being one of the things that made her really 516 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 3: frustrated with her secularism. And I think about that, and 517 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 3: the other thing I think about is and you might 518 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 3: remember this if you track this story thirteen years ago. 519 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 3: Do you know how many people said he should have 520 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,400 Speaker 3: just baked the cake? 521 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know. I couldn't give you a number, 522 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 4: but I know there were a lot. 523 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 3: And there were a lot of Christians saying that Jesus 524 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 3: would have baked the cake. Now, if Jack had just 525 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 3: baked the cake, we would have never known his name, 526 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 3: we would have never heard his story. Things would have 527 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 3: just proceeded, and who knows what would have proceeded in 528 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 3: terms of, you know, Supreme Court decisions or trials or 529 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 3: whatever else. 530 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 2: But Jack didn't bake. 531 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 3: The cake, and he went through thirteen years of persecution 532 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 3: of basically state actors coming after him. I don't use 533 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 3: persecution lightly because I also keep track of what's happening 534 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 3: like in Nigeria, But for Jack, it has to be 535 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 3: on that spectrum, and I just think he had no idea. 536 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 2: He just did the next right thing. 537 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, when that moment of decision came, he had already 538 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 3: thought it through and he was willing. 539 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,440 Speaker 2: To take to take the cost. And God used that. 540 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 3: In a remarkable, remarkable way. That one inspires me a 541 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 3: lot about what it means to be a person of courage. 542 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 3: And if you know Jack, he's also the nicest guy 543 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 3: on the planet. You know, when people were calling him 544 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 3: a bigot, I'm like, who are you talking about? Like, 545 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 3: you know, he served those two men, he offered to 546 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: serve them further. He just said, I can't communicate this message, 547 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: you know, and by making you, you know, custom designing 548 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 3: you a kay. It's just a remarkable story. But that's an, 549 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 3: in my mind, a crystal clear example of what you 550 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 3: were just saying. 551 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 2: That you have no idea what the outcome is going 552 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: to be. 553 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 3: That's the whole point of First Peter, Like this, if 554 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 3: God raised Christ from the dead, you can trust him. 555 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. 556 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we see it all over scripture. We 557 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: see in First Peter, we see it in Revelation. You know, 558 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: the church is of Revelation encouraged not to live with 559 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: a compromised faith, but to be unyielding and following Christ 560 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: and then the reward always comes after. You may experience 561 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: some good things as you go along, but the reward 562 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: is always after. And so but that doesn't deny that 563 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: we need to be in that state of no compromise. 564 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: I think one of my favorite quotes is from Jurgen Maltman. 565 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: He's a theologian. He wrote a book called Theology of Hope, 566 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: and he basically talks about sin in terms of our passivity, 567 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: our unwillingness. He kind of ends the quote with our 568 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: unwillingness to be what God requires. And as I watch 569 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: truth rising and as we've talked a little bit, that 570 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: quote comes to mind because I think that where we're 571 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: at right now is Christians just need to be what 572 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: God requires, regardless of consequence, and keep pursuing this truth. 573 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: Not for the sin of Western civilization, although that may 574 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 1: very well be part of what gets affected, but simply 575 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: because God requires us to be a particular way. 576 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and He's trustworthy. 577 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 3: Another of those stories that we tell in the film 578 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: is of Chloe Cole, And by the way, I think 579 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 3: each of the five stories tell us something a little 580 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 3: bit different, you know, in terms of what it means, 581 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: you know, to live under the truth and to submit 582 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 3: ourselves to it and to be that kind of person. 583 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: You know, Chloe was herself a victim of the decline 584 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 3: of our belief in truth. She was deceived by one 585 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 3: of the worst ideas that our world has had in 586 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 3: a long time, which is that kids, especially young girls, 587 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 3: can be born in the wrong body and should therefore 588 00:30:55,000 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 3: go through these life altering chemicals, hormones, even surgeries. And 589 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 3: at age fifteen, Chloe had a double mastectomy. I mean, 590 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 3: can you think about how how deceived you have to 591 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: be to get all the way down there. And I'll 592 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 3: tell you what's fascinating about her story is that she 593 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: came to believe and realize the mistake that she had made, 594 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 3: and she came to accept her body and that in 595 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 3: and of itself. Coming to the truth and submitting herself 596 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 3: to the truth about who she was actually eventually led her. 597 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 2: To the truth of the one who made her. 598 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 3: A lot of times, you know, we've been told, you know, 599 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 3: don't stand up for truth on these controversial issues because 600 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 3: it'll get in the way of the Gospel. It was 601 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 3: the truth about this controversial thing, that. 602 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: Letter to the Gospel. 603 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 3: She's what we now call a detransitioner. You know, three 604 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 3: years ago we were told those people didn't exist, that 605 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 3: they you know, there were no and Chloe's example is incredible. 606 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 3: What's also example incredible at Chloe is not just the 607 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 3: humility of what it means to submit to the truth 608 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 3: and what that can mean. Now she is a rock star. 609 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 3: I mean, she is a force of nature helping young people, 610 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 3: especially young women like herself, come back to the truth 611 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 3: about who she is. 612 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: I'm excited. 613 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 3: We have an annual conference that the Colson Center host 614 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 3: and she's going to join us, you know, for that 615 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 3: conference because of that. But you know that old kind 616 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 3: of cliche that we throw around some that you know, 617 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 3: because of what Christ can do and redeem and restore us, 618 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 3: that our mess becomes our message. 619 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 2: And you know, sometimes. 620 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 3: Cliches are cliches for good reasons, because they need to 621 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 3: be repeated, you know. 622 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: And hers is a story of that. 623 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 3: And and how truth encourage go together, right, because you 624 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 3: can be really courageous about something that's not true, and 625 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 3: that's usually hubris or that's usually just deception. But man, 626 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 3: when truth and courage come together, it becomes powerful, it 627 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 3: really does. And of course both of those things are 628 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 3: sourced in God. We don't do it in and of ourselves. 629 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 3: God reveals truth to us and he gives us the 630 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 3: courage you know that that we need. 631 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: And Chloe's a wonderful example of that. 632 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: Well as where I know, we both have hard stops here, 633 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: so I want to make sure we have enough time 634 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: to direct people to Truth Rising. So where what's the 635 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: best way for people to really access Truth Rising? And 636 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: then talk a little bit about what may be coming 637 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: down the road for Truth Rising? 638 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, look, it's absolutely free and there's no catches, right. 639 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 3: This is something that Focused and the Bold and Center 640 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 3: and Oz we all agreed upon. 641 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: You know. 642 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 3: So the documentary has been out on YouTube for a while. 643 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 3: We pretty I think it's reached probably about a million 644 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 3: people given the watch parties and everything else. We have 645 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 3: churches that have watched it together in small groups and 646 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 3: Christian schools and families that have wont it together. And 647 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 3: then following that is the study. The documentary is ninety minutes, 648 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,399 Speaker 3: it is beautifully filmed. Our partners at Coldwater Media did 649 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 3: a terrific job. And then you can follow that up 650 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 3: with an eight part study that walks through what we 651 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,439 Speaker 3: think are the four fundamental ingredients of being the kind 652 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,800 Speaker 3: of people that we need to be. Hope, Truth, identity 653 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 3: and calling hope is what's true about our moment right, 654 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,839 Speaker 3: no matter how crazy it looks, Christ has risen from 655 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 3: the dead. By truth, we mean the true story of 656 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 3: the world, really being able to see the world around 657 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 3: us in the way that the Bible describes it, you know, 658 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 3: on this storyline between creation and new creation. Identity, of course, 659 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 3: is the idea of the image of God. If we 660 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 3: live in a dehumanizing moment, we need to grasp who 661 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 3: we are and then calling as to how now shall 662 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 3: we live really, and we put some practical framing around 663 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 3: the idea of calling all of this. All of this 664 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 3: is that truth rising dot com. Truth Rising dot com. 665 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 3: It's it's all there. You can you know, from that, 666 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 3: you can find it on you know, the video on 667 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 3: YouTube to show it in front of a congregation, or 668 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,800 Speaker 3: watch it on your phone. We've that's been seeing hundreds 669 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 3: of thousands of times on x as well, so we've 670 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 3: distributed this far and wide. And then from there you 671 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 3: can also sign up to get the study and the 672 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 3: study comes with those four lessons, eight videos, and then 673 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,719 Speaker 3: also a study guide that goes along with that, uh, 674 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 3: with the questions to ask. 675 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 2: And really the whole goal is just to mobilize more people. 676 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 3: You know, we'll we'll never know a lot of the names, 677 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 3: like we know about the five more famous people that 678 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 3: we talk about in the in the book, but you 679 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 3: know or in the in the film. But what's interesting 680 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 3: is is you know, Jack Phillips is famous now, but 681 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 3: and he's he's really gifted as a cake artist. You've 682 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 3: ever go to Denver, go to a shot because it's 683 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 3: really good stuff. But you know, he's not like a superhero. 684 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 3: You know, God put him in a particular time in 685 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 3: place and called him to an active obedience. 686 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 2: He obeyed and then God did the rest. 687 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 3: And that's really what we're hoping to see, by God's grace, 688 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 3: is more of us willing to do that. 689 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:21,280 Speaker 4: Well, I'll be. 690 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: I'll put the address or the web address for all 691 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: of this stuff on the YouTube video of the documentary, 692 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: the website, all that stuff will be in the show notes, folks, So. 693 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 4: I would even really encourage you to check it out. 694 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: Just as we close here, John, what's your prayer for 695 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: the Truth Rising Project? I mean, what do you really 696 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 1: you know if you had your your big dream of 697 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: what this does and how it impacts the church. 698 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 4: What would that be? 699 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 2: You know? 700 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 3: I worked for years prior to becoming the president of 701 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,919 Speaker 3: the Coulson Center at a ministry called Summit Ministries, which 702 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 3: is out in Colorado Springs. It trains young people in 703 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 3: worldview and apologetics for the go to college. I still 704 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:04,919 Speaker 3: do some teaching over there. The founder of Summit led 705 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 3: that for fifty years, you know, model of faithfulness. 706 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 2: Just an incredible man. 707 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,000 Speaker 3: And he used to he used to joke about this, 708 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,919 Speaker 3: and now I think about it a lot. He talked 709 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,280 Speaker 3: about his favorite verse. I think it's somewhere an acts. 710 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 3: I need to find that the address for it. But 711 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 3: he says, you know it's it's it's where they talk. 712 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 3: It talks about David, and it's like David was faithful 713 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 3: to his generation and then he died. That's what I watched, 714 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,040 Speaker 3: be faithful and then die because you know, you're part 715 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 3: of something bigger. And I think about that a lot, 716 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 3: and I guess that's the goal. You know, God's writing 717 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 3: the story of history. 718 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 2: I'm not. 719 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,919 Speaker 3: God sent Jesus in the flesh and uh and he's 720 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 3: been you know, he's risen from the dead. You know, 721 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,759 Speaker 3: everything's everything's in place, So I've been and God's the 722 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 3: one who put me in this time and place. So 723 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 3: you know, that's what we want to see. And if 724 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 3: Truth Rising can encourage more people, and I mean encourage 725 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 3: exactly the way the word means, which means to give courage, 726 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 3: we want to give courage. And God has used these 727 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,879 Speaker 3: stories to give courage to me. And God has used 728 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 3: Ozgennis to give knowledge and understanding and from that courage 729 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 3: to me. And man, if that can equip Christians for 730 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 3: this crazy moment. Man, what a gift, what a privilege 731 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 3: to be a part of. 732 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:36,399 Speaker 2: Something like this. 733 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 3: And so it's been a lot of fun to work 734 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 3: with those guys, and it's been a lot of fun 735 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 3: to learn more about you know, Jack and Chloe, and 736 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 3: Iann herci Ali and Katie Fast another friend whose story 737 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 3: is told. Even Seth Dylan, you know, the Babylon b guy. 738 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 3: What a what a funny guy. You know, I appreciate 739 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 3: having the spiritual gift of sarcasm as well. I just 740 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:07,239 Speaker 3: that's the goal, faithfulness. That faithfulness is really what the 741 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:07,759 Speaker 3: goal is. 742 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,640 Speaker 4: Very good. I love that. Well, John, thanks for being 743 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 4: on the show. 744 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: Really appreciate having you here, and I pray the Truth 745 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: Rising Project. 746 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 4: Does really, really well. 747 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: Again, we're going to have all the links in the 748 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: show notes, so if you're interested in the Truth Project, 749 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: i'd encourage you go check it out. I think I 750 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: got to see the documentary, really enjoyed it. Definitely worth 751 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: your time to watch it and just engage with this project. 752 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: Think about what it means to live for the truth 753 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: courageously in a time where really the world needs to 754 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 1: see the witness of the Church and the faithful witness 755 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: of the Church in order to see Christ. 756 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 4: So again, John, thanks for being here. 757 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:47,919 Speaker 2: Hey, it's been an honor. Thanks so much. 758 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: All Right, everybody, take care and we'll catch you on 759 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,160 Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian