1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Noel for Leini Bert and she 11 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: is the author of a book called God in the Desert, 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: a spiritual theology of wilderness in the Old Testament. She's 13 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: also a part time lecturer at Sanford University. And really 14 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: enjoyed this book. You all know I'm kind of an 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: Old Testament geek myself, and so I really appreciated this 16 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: book and am happy to welcome Noel to the podcast. 17 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: So welcome, Thank you. 18 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 19 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: Well, I usually like to start out and just ask authors, 20 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: you know what prompted this book. This is a really 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: interesting way of approaching the Old Testament. We emerge Old 22 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: Testament with spiritual formation, spiritual direction, and so I'm just 23 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: wondering if you can give us a little bit of 24 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: an insight into what prompted you to go this direction 25 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: and brought what drew your interest to the wilderness in 26 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: the Old Testament. 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been about twenty years in the making, to 28 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 2: be honest, I mean I can go all the way 29 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: back to my first semester spiritual formation class and seminary, 30 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: and if you're familiar, our professor introduced us to a 31 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: book called Devotional Classics, which is coming out of the 32 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: Richard Foster Renovarri movement, and it's a compilation of excerpts 33 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: from various spiritual writings throughout church history. And in that book, 34 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: I met Saint John of the Cross for the first time, 35 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: and Foster did sort of mash up with the Dark 36 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 2: Knight of the Soul and Psalm forty two, which, of course, 37 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 2: this is a psalm that is asking, you know, questions 38 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: of where God is and longing to feel God's presence 39 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: in the way that Psalmist once did. And I remember 40 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 2: being in that class and being assigned to lead our 41 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: class discussion that particular day and there was just something 42 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: about the topic of darkness in God's absence and the 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: questions that you have about God that are that are 44 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: real and present and visceral even that felt really true, 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: and that like, here are things that a lot of 46 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: us feel but don't talk about. And I remember thinking, 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: as a twenty three year old first semester seminarian that 48 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: this text, this John the Cross and writings like that 49 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 2: was a text for me and a topic for me. 50 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 2: And I didn't know why. And I had a sense, 51 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 2: this sort of intuitive sense, very early, that this is 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: something that maybe not now, but somewhere down the line, 53 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: that this sort of amalgamation of topics of suffering and 54 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: darkness and confusion and God's absence would be important somehow 55 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 2: in my life. And so fast forward a few years later, 56 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 2: and I found myself doing a PhD in All Testament, 57 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: and the story of Jacob wrestling with God the Javic 58 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 2: River found me and it was the topic of my dissertation. 59 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: And so once again it was darkness, and it was 60 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 2: God's absence, and yet somehow God's hyper presence, the God 61 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: that sometimes feels miles away and then sometimes it other 62 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: times feels violently present, in ways that change your whole life, 63 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: and how this particular care to encounter darkness literally and 64 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: figuratively a lot in his story, and it feels and 65 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: was a wilderness of sorts. And so I'm living with 66 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: with that Old Testament text I'm living with at the 67 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: time taking a doctoral seminar on the cloud of unknowing 68 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: and learning about the mystics and desert fathers and desert 69 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: mothers of the early Church and just seeing images that 70 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 2: all related to wilderness in some way, like these sort 71 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 2: of opposing ideas that all felt true in the life 72 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: of faith, Like there's darkness, but you get enlightened in 73 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 2: darkness too. Sometimes things are they're barren, they're stark, yet 74 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 2: there's there's fecundity that is, there's abundance. Is also there's 75 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: this idea that there's dislocation and exile, but there's homecoming 76 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: true too, there's betrothal and divorce, and there's consolation, desolation, hunger, satiation, 77 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 2: you know, abandonment and nurture and just all these things 78 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: that wilderness became the image for me over time that 79 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 2: represented all that and represented suffering and restlessness and confusion 80 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: and malaise and stripping away of the things that we 81 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 2: rely on usually and I think most provocatively encounter with God. 82 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 2: And so I entered wilderness really through darkness, because I 83 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: think that these are overlapping things and they feel they 84 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: feel true in the actual lives people have, as opposed 85 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 2: to the lives people say that they have. So yeah, yeah, 86 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 2: I was just it's you know, what is it the 87 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: most the most personal is the most universal, right, And 88 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: that's really where I started. 89 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 1: So very cool. I you know, as I was reading 90 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 1: your book, one of the things that I think I've 91 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: thought about for a long time is I was never 92 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: much on preaching. I do it occasionally now, but even 93 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: when I preach, I mostly just teach and then you 94 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 1: draw some application. And as I was reading through your book, 95 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that struck me was this sort 96 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: of I don't want to call it a hard line, 97 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: but you talk about the intersection of liturgy and scholarship 98 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: at one point, and how these two really do need 99 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 1: to go together. And what I found myself asking was, 100 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, as I've done a little bit more I 101 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: don't know, applicational work, right, trying to apply ex to Jesus, 102 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: to the church, not just sort of siphoning it off 103 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: and isolating it from real life. What I find is 104 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: that merging it to real life, in other words, making 105 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: the ex of Jesus fit the liturgy is actually the 106 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: harder task. It's a much more difficult task, and they 107 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: require each other. But I'm wondering how you think about this, 108 00:06:54,520 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: the necessity of scholarship and it's relation to spiritual life. 109 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: So in other words, and maybe I could just say 110 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: like this, just so I kind of get my thought 111 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: clear to you, is I see sometimes I see a 112 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: lot of sort of pithy devotional content. Yeah, it has 113 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: the ring of connecting to real life, but is very 114 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: disconnected from the text. Yeah, and I'm wondering how you 115 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: think about that relationship. 116 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tricky because I've seen it done as you 117 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: have in different ways. So one way is the very 118 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: low hanging, shallow fruit of application without exegesus, you know, 119 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: to where I just said this in classed this morning. 120 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 2: A text without a context is a pretext for it 121 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: to mean anything you want it to me, And that's 122 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 2: really dangerous. And so you know, these sort of pithy 123 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: things that we put on greeting cards and on throw 124 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: pillows divorced from truly dealing with the Biblical text as 125 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 2: it needs to be dealt with is dangerous and shallow. 126 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: And what is equally dangerous too, though, I think is 127 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 2: I've said in church is that you know, I was 128 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: trained as a seminarian, as a doctoral student to really 129 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: do the opposite of what I just said, to really 130 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: dig into the context, to really dig into the world 131 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: underneath the text and to the exclusion of the soul, 132 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: to the exclusion of the heart. And I have sat 133 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: in church services well intentioned with people I love behind 134 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: the pulpit and have walked away going I have no 135 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 2: idea how this is relevant to my soul. I have 136 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: no idea how this is forming me. This feels like 137 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 2: a lecture and I don't And moreover, I don't even 138 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: know who you are behind the pulpit, much less who 139 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 2: God is. So I think that and who God is 140 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: like pursuing me and wanting me to be So I 141 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 2: think that there's a danger too that we hide behind 142 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: our scholarship because we don't know how to go about 143 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: the deep soul work, or we're afraid to or you know, 144 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: I'm not a pastor, so I can say this. So 145 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 2: somewhat judgmentally without any kind of repercussion for myself, but 146 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 2: you know, without any vulnerability at all. And so I 147 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 2: could understand only as a lay person, but I could 148 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: understand that the perception of danger in letting you your 149 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 2: congregants in too much. So I just feel that both 150 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: of those postures, both of those opposites really have made 151 00:09:54,960 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: me feel lonely. You know, I've walked away from church 152 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 2: or Bible City or whatever it might be, feeling just malnourished. 153 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 2: And so I think about, like, how might I pursue 154 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: the discipline and it is an academic discipline of spiritual 155 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: formation with the same degree of I hope, excellence and 156 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: rigor in learning. Who are the seminal voices in this 157 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: field and what were they about and what have they 158 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 2: given to us? I'll say that Robert Mulholland's shape by 159 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: the word using scripture or the power of scripture and 160 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: spiritual formation has changed my life because he was a 161 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: New Testament scholar that was his training, who was equally 162 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: robust in this other discipline, and he brought them together. 163 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 2: And so just how can we bring them together and 164 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: also do it in the way that formation is intended 165 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: as not just an academic discipline, although it is that, 166 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: but to really let it do what it's supposed to do, 167 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: which is to excavate the soul and draw us closer 168 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: to God. So I think about just trying really deeply 169 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: in my own life to bring as the Wesleyans would say, 170 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: knowledge and vital piety together, and to be whether it's 171 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 2: in class or in my writing or whatever it might be, 172 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: as honest as I can. I share a little bit 173 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 2: of my own story in the book, and also to 174 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 2: say that, like, these are not perfect things, and I 175 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 2: can offer a list of practices and have and do 176 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 2: and will, but these are things, all of them that 177 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: just position us before God, and we don't have really 178 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 2: much control over what they do to us. We are 179 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 2: dependent upon God for God to do that work. All 180 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 2: we do is position ourselves before the God before whom 181 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: we are laid there. 182 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I mean, I think, as I think back 183 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: through your book, one of the things that I really 184 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: appreciated was the tension you're able to sort of hold 185 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: together without smoothing out the uncomfortable parts. So, I mean, 186 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: I think about the chapter on Hagar and the way 187 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: you deal with Abram and Sarah and the way they 188 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: treat this woman. And you don't say, look, these people 189 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: are now evil and we should frame we should demonize them, right, 190 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: But you also, I think appropriately recognize these are not 191 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: the people who are supposed to venerate. We can recognize 192 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: their faith, and Hebrews eleven, as you mentioned, does that. 193 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: But then we also have to really pay attention of 194 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: the Old Testament record. We can't just take that little 195 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: sliver of testimony, which the New Testament isn't giving a 196 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: robust ex to Jesus of that narrative. They're pinpointing a 197 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: very specific action, and so there's a narrowing that happens 198 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 1: in the New Testament, especially in Hebrews eleven. And when 199 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: we get to the Old Testament, we have to read 200 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: this sort of broader stroke and recognize that there is 201 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: a tension here, that there are things we need to 202 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: wrestle with and recognize, and that this is in some 203 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: way commensurate with the way that our lives look as 204 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: opposed to being sort of a a pristine model that 205 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: we're supposed to live up to. But I really appreciated 206 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: the way you were able to deal with some of 207 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: those really sentimental narratives in a way that respected some 208 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: of that sentiment but also really challenged it and drew 209 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: out some other aspects of those pieces. 210 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: Thank you. The Hagar story is one that has followed 211 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: me in a way that most stories have not. And 212 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: I almost didn't put that into the book because I've 213 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 2: I've written so much about Hagar already that I felt 214 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 2: like I had nothing else to say. And it just 215 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: came to me. And that's that I wrote that chapter 216 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 2: in a in an afternoon. I mean, it just came. 217 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 2: And you know, I think I look at biblical characters 218 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: and in this case, Abraham and Sarah in the way 219 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: that I look at myself and the people in my 220 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: own life. And you know, when when I was younger, 221 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 2: I was more apt to think in black and white 222 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 2: ways about myself, and I so deeply wanted to be 223 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: the good person in my own story. And you know, conversely, 224 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 2: the people that have hurt me, I so deeply wanted 225 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: to say, you're the bad guy in the story of 226 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 2: my life. And because what does that do for me? 227 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: It helps me to sleep at night self righteously and 228 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 2: to still allow myself to be a good person. And 229 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: the more that I've grown and aged. Really, the more 230 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: that I've aged, I see that we're complex people. That 231 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 2: I am I'm sure the mentor in someone's life and 232 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: the person who has I hope been helpful to someone. 233 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: And I'm probably the villain in someone else's story too, 234 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 2: And we are mixtures of darkness and light, And so 235 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: why would not the characters in the biblical text be 236 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 2: that as well? And so I think just holding up 237 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:49,239 Speaker 2: a mirror and saying, here the places where Yeah, Abraham 238 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 2: is the friend of God. He is, you know, he is, 239 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 2: depending on how to read Genesis twenty two in particular, 240 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: I mean, historically it's been read as this is the 241 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 2: pinnacle of his faith. I mean there's there's certainly counter 242 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 2: readings that complicate that, right sure, But to see that, 243 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: like he he does things that are positive and faithful 244 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 2: and things that are really really destructive, and so do 245 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: I and you know, so do we all. And to 246 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: look at that honestly and to say, God, please help 247 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: me to see those places in myself and be willing 248 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 2: to look at them and willing to deal with them. 249 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: It is an aspect I think of grace and that 250 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: I offer to myself and offer to characters in the 251 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: text too, So. 252 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too far off on a tangent, 253 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: but you brought up Genesis twenty two, and I had 254 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: a question when I was reading your book or an idea, 255 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: and so I hadn't really reflected on the Haggar story 256 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: the way that you did. So obviously there's the connection 257 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 1: with her going out into the wilderness, hearing from God, 258 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: you know, almost being you know, we could say, exiled 259 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 1: from her place, her normal home place, you know. Abraham 260 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: and Sarah I push her out because they don't there's 261 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: tension there and they don't want to deal with this tension, 262 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: and then God sees her. What I found really fascinating 263 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: was in reading your interpretation of the Hagar narrative was 264 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: how I began to think differently about Genesis twenty two. 265 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 1: I you know, you always catch that, okay, Ishmael's gone now, right, 266 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: So this would have been the second time that Hagar 267 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,600 Speaker 1: and Ishmael are sent away, right, They sent her away twice, 268 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: once when it's just her and then once when it's Ishmael. 269 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm correct about that. I think, yeah, it always gets 270 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: mixed up and then so you always catch that, okay, 271 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: Ishmael's gone, Isaac's the only one left. And now this 272 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: is this act of sacrifice in Genesis twenty two that 273 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: Abram's going to be tested. Is he going to give 274 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: this his only son to the Lord? What I don't 275 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: think I caught in all of that was the dynamics 276 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 1: between those initial narratives where he's trying to push Hagar out, 277 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: push Hagar in Ishmail out, and now himself being challenged 278 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: to say, like, if you want to raise the tension, 279 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: how do we raise it? How does this? How do 280 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: how does Genesis twenty two function in light of those 281 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: other two narratives. So I don't know whether you have 282 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: any insights on that, but that was one of those 283 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: things that it raised a question in my mind and 284 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about it. 285 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, you're right that Hagar and 286 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 2: Ishmael are are cast out. They are cast out twice. 287 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 2: This is, you know, what we call on the ltestiamate doublets, 288 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 2: the same story, same basic story, told twice in slightly 289 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: different ways. Maybe it's different authors, who knows, and the 290 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: sort of pathos of that. I mean, these are stories 291 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: that raise the emotional bar higher and higher and you 292 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: see that really what Abraham is left with is just 293 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 2: the one son. And the text is very very clear 294 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 2: as it piles adjectives onto take your son, take your 295 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 2: only son, take the son that you love. Just in 296 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: that very first verse, I think it is that just 297 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 2: really describes the pathos of giving up this thing that 298 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:35,120 Speaker 2: you wanted so desperately and being willing to do that, 299 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 2: and the sort of effect on potential effect on Sarah 300 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 2: as well. I mean, that's the last that we really 301 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: hear from her is the previous story. And the rabbis 302 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: would say about Sarah that she dropped dead after this moment, 303 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 2: that that's why we don't hear from hers is after 304 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: this story, that it just killed her. So the emotion, 305 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: So there's emotional on every side, even in the rabbinic 306 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:07,199 Speaker 2: literature that talks about this. And you know what we 307 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 2: do with that story, whether we take it to be 308 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: a story about critiquing human sacrifice and other religions, whether 309 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: we take that as a story of different authors where 310 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 2: Elahim requires one thing and y always requires another, and 311 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: this is how this is getting worked out. There's a 312 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: lot about the compositional history of that particular text. Yes, 313 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: but the pathos is there, certainly, and just the requirement 314 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 2: to give the very last thing that you want to give, 315 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 2: the very last thing that you have to give, the 316 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 2: dream that you've always wanted, and to be willing to 317 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 2: see to that and submit that. You know, read in 318 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 2: a positive light, I can empathize with dreams that you 319 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: want to keep. 320 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's just I think what struck me 321 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: and that again as I sort of read your purgation chapter, 322 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 1: your purging chapter, which I kind of like we can 323 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: turn to next. But I just think there's a beautiful 324 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: symmetry in this idea that Abram and Sarah are consistently 325 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: trying to push out Hagar and take away the things 326 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: that mattered to her. And so the test that God 327 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: puts Abram through is the consequence of his actions in 328 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: relation to Hagar and Ishmael. Like, yes, God tells him 329 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: to send Ishmael away, and it's okay, but the reality 330 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: is that there they've already pushed them out. They've pushed 331 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: Hagar out, and there was no concern for her losing anything, 332 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: and now all of a sudden, Abram is put to 333 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: the test in this and I just it struck me 334 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: that those narratives are probably more closely tied together than 335 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: just the superficial Ishmael's gone and the only Isaac remains. 336 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: So I definitely appreciate it about that chapter. 337 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah. 338 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the purging chapter, because I thought 339 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: that was really Again, as I sort of read through 340 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: the Purging chapter, what started to come to my mind is, 341 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: so I look through the you know, you do the 342 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: wilderness peace as a place of testing. You reference Deuteronomy eight, 343 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: all those you know, sort of texts that many people 344 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: are familiar with that you know, man does not live 345 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 1: on bread alone, but not everywhere. That comes from the 346 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: mouth of the Lord. And you know, the Israelites are 347 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: sent out into the wilderness as a test so they 348 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 1: can learn to follow the commands of the Lord. But 349 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: then you get into Hoseiah and you have this much 350 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: harsher language in Hoseiah. It's very strong prophetic language where 351 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: God is going to send his people into the wilderness. 352 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: He's going to send them out, and you talk about 353 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: it in terms of purging, and so I'm just I'm 354 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: interested to hear you kind of walk through that a bit. 355 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: And then I'll pepper in a few questions along the way. 356 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, I should say the Hoseah chapter was the first 357 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: chapter I wrote for the book, and it was the hardest, 358 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 2: certainly for the reasons that you're naming the hardest to 359 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 2: get right, I don't know that I did the hardest. 360 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 2: To Gosh, how many minefields can I can I step 361 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 2: over or step on potential lad So I offer that 362 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 2: with a great deal of fear and trepidation. I would say, 363 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 2: you know, Hoseah, the idea that God is bringing them 364 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: to the wilderness is not unique to Hoseah. I mean 365 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: Exodus thirteen talks about this, that God caused them. And 366 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 2: I won't geek out too much here, but the Hebrew 367 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 2: nuance there is in the verb is in fact causative. 368 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 2: It is God's agency that does this. It's not circumstances, 369 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: it's not happenstance. It is God's decision. And so it 370 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 2: makes sense to me then that Joseiah too might function 371 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: similarly in this way. And I think the thing that 372 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 2: helped me a little bit to soften some of the 373 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: Biblical language is to go to the Christian mystic mystical tradition, 374 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: so use the word purgation, and that is a part 375 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 2: of the mystical tradition of what we call the scholars 376 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: called the threefold way of purgation, illumination, and contemplation. And 377 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 2: it's kind of across the board. The mystics are weird 378 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 2: and wonderful, and I learned to love them, and seminary 379 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 2: and doctor work too, but they are all wanting to 380 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 2: have the end of union with God and a lover 381 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 2: and beloved meeting one another, and so speaking these really 382 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: impassioned and sometimes uncomfortable ways about the relationship between God 383 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 2: and the believer, and purgation is a part of that. 384 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: And in that tradition, purgation is this kind of stripping 385 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: way of all the things that a believer might normally 386 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: rely upon, all of the I forget who whose language 387 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 2: this is. It might be Henry Allen. The self made 388 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: props that we all, that we all hold on to. 389 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 2: Those those are different for all of us. You know, 390 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 2: we are not in Hoseiah's day and time. We are 391 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 2: not Israelites in the eighth century who are pursuing idols 392 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 2: or who are reliant on maybe political frenemies to help 393 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,719 Speaker 2: them when times are hard. That's not who we are, 394 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 2: because it's not our context, But what are the the 395 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 2: self made props that I'm reliant upon? You know, I 396 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: just this is not Bible, but it's it's I think 397 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 2: it's somewhat relevant. I just read Gertu's Faust for the 398 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 2: first time a few months ago, and that has stayed 399 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: with me in such a sobering way. What is the thing? 400 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's it's on the face of its 401 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 2: particular story, it's, you know, a man who sells his 402 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 2: soul to the devil for infinite knowledge. But boy, I 403 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 2: read that and it sits on my shelf, and I 404 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: think to myself, I could see myself doing some version 405 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 2: of that, some form of that, whatever that looks like. 406 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 2: Of I really want to know all the things, and 407 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: so what is what is the idol in my life? 408 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 2: What are the things that I really need to relinquish? 409 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: And perhaps when I'm in some sort of stark situation, 410 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 2: when my dreams have been crushed, when you know, some 411 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 2: terrible thing has happened to me, and whatever that might be, 412 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: whatever it is that gets me to wake up and 413 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 2: to pay attention and to see that God is really 414 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: wanting me deeply, and he's wanting me in this beloved 415 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 2: way that this latter portion of Josea two is dealing with. 416 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: He's wanting to have that sort of romantic in the 417 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: sense of adventure and of closeness with me and I 418 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: have one foot in and one foot out often, and 419 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 2: the Israelites are a picture of that. So I think, 420 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: I think to answer your question going back to Christian 421 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: tradition and maybe not imposing on Hooseiah too, but using 422 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: it as a conversation partner with it, Yeah, helps me 423 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,680 Speaker 2: a little bit. But to be honest, Yeah, Joseiah too 424 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 2: is really hard. And you know, I do fear. I 425 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 2: do fear the reader here and his or her vitriol 426 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 2: perhaps sense I don't know. 427 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: No, I mean I think as I read through it. 428 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: This has always been something. I think it's something that 429 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: Old Testament theologians always struggle with, is you know, what 430 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,320 Speaker 1: is God doing here? And how do we think about 431 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: a punishing God? And sometimes I try to explain it, 432 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: and I think this softens the language way too much, 433 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: but sometimes it helps people get their head around it. 434 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: It's like when my son was younger, he used to 435 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: have his iPhone or whatever, and he'd sit in the 436 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: tub and he'd have the iPhone on the side of 437 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: the tub, and I would tell him, I'm like, if 438 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: you continue to do that, at some point that phone 439 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: ends up in that water, right, But it didn't no 440 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: matter how much I warned, and he continued to do it, 441 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: and eventually the phone fell in the water. 442 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: Right. 443 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: So we get the rice out, we dried it out, 444 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: it's all good. But he learns a lesson. Right, Yeah, Well, 445 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: I didn't throw the phone in the water, but it 446 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 1: was the natural consequence of the behavior, like getting to 447 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: that line and working through it. And so when I 448 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: read that Hoseah too, my mind was going back to 449 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: and I don't think there's any formal relation between these 450 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: two texts, but the comments regarding the husband's responsibility within 451 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: a marriage in Exodus twenty one. Ye know that resonated 452 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: in my head as I was reading those passages and 453 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: Hoseah and your reflection on them, because it's like, look 454 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,479 Speaker 1: what he's taking away. He's taking away the provision and 455 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: security that a husband is to provide a wife. But 456 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: in this case it's because the wife has been unfaithful 457 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 1: that these things she's no longer deserving of these things. 458 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: And even then, as God comes back and shows mercy. 459 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: We see the ongoing faithfulness of God despite his that purging. Yeah, 460 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, he comes back and sort of is tender 461 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: and so he's long suffering with us. But no, I 462 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: thought it was a really effective chapter. And I think 463 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: that when I was reading it, one of the concepts 464 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: I really loved that you pulled out that I had 465 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: I was unfamiliar with. I'm not even sure I'm going 466 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: to pronounce it right, but the aciitia oh. 467 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:34,719 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, that concept, And I'd like you'd 468 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: explained a little bit. 469 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: But that concept I think made sense for me of 470 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the tensions that we feel, and it 471 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,479 Speaker 1: gets around to what you're talking about, the idols and 472 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: what we really depend on. I think, so maybe talk 473 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about that if you don't mind. 474 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Asidia is a concept that comes out of the 475 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 2: desert tradition. So I'm linking that mostly with the desert 476 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 2: fathers mothers and potentially with the Hagar story, but it 477 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: absolutely applies here too. Yeah. So when Christianity gets legalized 478 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 2: under Constantine in the early three hundreds, it becomes you know, 479 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: church and states so to speak, come together, and it 480 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 2: becomes much easier to become a Christian, and Christianity becomes 481 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 2: cultural in many ways. And so there were those men 482 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 2: and women who felt Christians, who felt like the opulence 483 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 2: of the church is no longer representative of the Jesus 484 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 2: who suffered and died, and so they fled to the wilderness. 485 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 2: And when they fled to the wilderness, they encountered all 486 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 2: of these temptations what ancient desert fathers and mothers called 487 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: i guessimoy. That is, the thoughts that assail you, you know, 488 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: lust or the desire to go back to where you 489 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 2: came from, the desire to give up. Uh. And so 490 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: you know, there's all this advice in the desert tradition 491 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 2: about how to deal with that. But one thing that 492 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 2: that often happened, and the result of being in this 493 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: this desert space that was stark and it was remote, 494 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: was just the desire to kind of give up, the 495 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: desire to get just a kind of weariness at the 496 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 2: heat of the day. And it really is connected to 497 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 2: the noon. The noonday demon is is one way in 498 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 2: which it's referred to. It's that that demon that whatever 499 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 2: that demon is for you, for the individual that assails you, 500 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: and that says this life that you're leading that is austere, uh, 501 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: and it costs you something isn't worth it, and so 502 00:32:53,960 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 2: that that sets in. And sometimes it takes something significant 503 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: in your life to wake you up and to lead 504 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 2: you back to a place of impassioned love for God. 505 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, I think that's very very relevant. 506 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 2: I'm I just turned forty three, and I feel the 507 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: weariness of midlife very deeply and have been a Christian 508 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 2: for a long time and can and can understand that 509 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 2: in a very lived kind of way. Even though I'm 510 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 2: not a monk or desert mother, but I in my 511 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: own way, I can understand, Gosh, the world is not 512 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 2: what I thought it was, and I might just want 513 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 2: to give up and just do what everybody else does, 514 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 2: you know. So I think it's a clear and present 515 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 2: danger for a lot of us. 516 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: So I will say I mean, I think it resonated 517 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: with me in a few different ways. It was number one, 518 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: you know, I started thinking about my own life and saying, 519 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: I haven't had any major tragedies. I think my wife 520 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: and I have been really blessed in that way. We 521 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: just haven't had any major tragedies. But there is something 522 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: to be said for death by a thousand cuts. And 523 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: at this point, you know, at forty eight, we've you know, 524 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: we have three, three biological kids. We just adopted a 525 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: five year old. You know, careers are going different directions, 526 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Like you just have the grind 527 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 1: of that day to day and sometimes you sit back 528 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: and you go, man, it'd be a lot easier not 529 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: to be faithful at this point, right, Just you could, 530 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: you know, I could make this work so much easier. 531 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: And I do think that that is the sort of 532 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: complacency that draws in because we don't see the immediate 533 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: effect or the effect that we want maybe of being faithful. 534 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: We want we want life to get better, and we 535 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: we we labor under the impression that being faithful should 536 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: being blessing. And I think more maybe more specifically, faithfulness 537 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: should bring the blessing that we expect, you know, yeah, 538 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: not the one that God surprises us with, but the 539 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: one that we actually want. And yeah, So I just 540 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 1: really resonated with that concept and felt like it fit 541 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,880 Speaker 1: the tone that you were trying to strike in the book, 542 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:28,240 Speaker 1: which I think is the world isn't quite right, yeah, 543 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: and this is where we live and we should not 544 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: ignore what's not right about it. Well, at the same time, 545 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: we can't surrender to what's not right about it either. 546 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I think the implication with Asdia and with 547 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,280 Speaker 2: the whole of the wilderness experience is the exact opposite 548 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 2: of what we kind of began talking about, which is 549 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 2: the shallow faith. And I think that the wilderness and 550 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 2: Assidia and all of these concepts inside of this book 551 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 2: and inside of the wilderness traditions plural implies a deep faith. 552 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 2: It implies a weathered faith, It implies a lived in 553 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 2: faith because these are questions that get raised because you're 554 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 2: living with God. So I would I would take some encouragement, 555 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,359 Speaker 2: I think from that. 556 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: So I have another sort of curveball question. So this 557 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: is the danger of me liking the Old Testament. And 558 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: so as I was reading through the Wilderness work that 559 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: you're doing, and you know, seeing how the war the 560 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 1: wilderness is so formative, and how it sort of strips 561 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,359 Speaker 1: you down to your bar essence. It takes away the 562 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 1: things that you would ordinarily depend on. And I think 563 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: Deuteronomy AD is really crucial to this. You know, when 564 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: God warns the Israelites that when they go into the 565 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: land and they have this prosperity and they're living there 566 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: that they not forget God and say it is my strength, 567 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: of my power that has gotten me all this wealth. Yeah, right, 568 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: that sort of temptation the wilderness pulls all that back. 569 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 1: My mind immediately went to the Garden of Eden, this 570 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 1: beautiful place of provision and abundance, is where it all 571 00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,960 Speaker 1: sort of begins to fall apart. And I'm wondering if 572 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on how those two sort of 573 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,479 Speaker 1: fit together as almost mirror images where what we see, 574 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: you know how what we see in the garden is 575 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: sort of the opposite of what we're seeing in the wilderness. 576 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Gosh. Deuteronomy eight, I think, for me, is a 577 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 2: text that I really kind of hate because it really 578 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 2: forces me to look at grace. 579 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 580 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 2: Likewise, the Garden story forces me to look at grace, 581 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 2: what is given, what is provided. Yeah. I had this 582 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 2: moment not I'm to my shame, not long ago, where 583 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 2: I was driving around Birmingham where I live, and you know, 584 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 2: those those moments in the car are moments where you know, 585 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 2: what you really think about life kind of just comes 586 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 2: at you because there's no distraction, no one talking to you, 587 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 2: and I thought to myself, I really don't like grace. 588 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 2: I really like I really want to believe that my 589 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:44,799 Speaker 2: hard work has paid off. Yeah, I really want to 590 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: think that kind of you. You were sort of talking earlier. 591 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 2: You didn't use this phrasing, but it's it's that it's 592 00:38:52,760 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: this retributive justice idea of if I pursue covenant, whatever 593 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 2: that looks like in a New Testament or in a 594 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 2: Christian sense, now, if I pursue God in the right ways, 595 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 2: then God will bless me. And that's a very shallow, 596 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 2: black and white way of looking at the world. In 597 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 2: the Book of job right pushes against that, our own 598 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 2: lives push against that. But there's something in me that 599 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 2: really wants that to be the case, because that allows 600 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 2: me to put a quarter in a machine and get 601 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: a candy bar out. 602 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: You know, that's right. 603 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think both the garden and the wilderness 604 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 2: shows us that whatever is, whatever is that is good, 605 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,919 Speaker 2: is not what I have procured for myself. And it's 606 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 2: it's the moments that God has given me things that 607 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 2: I have not worked for, that have taught me that 608 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 2: and so that there can be, in this very strange way, 609 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 2: a kind of garden inside of the wilderness when when 610 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: you discover that it has been grace all along, you know, 611 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 2: And I think, and I think that you realize too, 612 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 2: like what is it that you really value? And what 613 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: are is hard work the idol in my life? Oh, 614 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 2: I think it's one of them. You know. I'm an 615 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 2: ang Ram three and I will absolutely outwork you. We 616 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,919 Speaker 2: like I will, I will achieve the goals. And that's 617 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,960 Speaker 2: one thing I've learned over the last few years especially, 618 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 2: is I had this moment I'll just share this in 619 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 2: my own personal life where I set out loud and 620 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 2: I'm so ashamed of this, but I set out loud 621 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 2: to someone, well, I'll be there because this is the 622 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 2: most important thing in my life. And as I said that, 623 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 2: I thought, what are you doing? Like that is so wrong? 624 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 2: That is and that that's such a shallow thing. And 625 00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 2: so just really learning just like the the thing in me, 626 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 2: even that push against grace and that requires me, I think, 627 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 2: to live in wilderness so that I can see the 628 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 2: abundance of the garden. Yeah. 629 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: One of the just as you're talking there, one of 630 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: my one of my favorite texts for Samuel twelve, where 631 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: Samuel they've asked Samuel to give him a king, and 632 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: Samuel comes back, you know, God has told them, hey, 633 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 1: they're rejecting me, not you give him the king they're 634 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: asking for. And Samuel comes back, and he says, if 635 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: you will fear the Lord and keep your commandments, it 636 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: will go well with you. You you know, you have to 637 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,280 Speaker 1: fear him, but your king also has to fear them. 638 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: And and it comes to mind because as you're as 639 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: you're talking about the grace necessary in the garden and 640 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: in the wilderness, there's a governing dynamic that God said 641 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:50,320 Speaker 1: in place that doesn't change. It's this dependence on Him 642 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: that are our best strategy is always obedience. That the 643 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: fear of the Lord is what we are supposed to do, 644 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: regardless of our situation, and that that's what I think 645 00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 1: we're supposed to see is missing in the garden, and 646 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: it's what we begin to learn in the wilderness. 647 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 2: You know. 648 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: And so I think that's just such a resonant theme 649 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: throughout scripture, but we often miss it because I like you, 650 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,120 Speaker 1: I agree with you. Yeah, I don't like grace. I 651 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:19,759 Speaker 1: want to earn it. 652 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I. 653 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: Have this sort of misplaced understanding in my head that 654 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: I probably could you know, I'm yeah, I'm in any 655 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: of your gram eight. So it's like, no, that's a 656 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: good challenge, right, let me earn it all right, Yeah, 657 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: but that's not the way it works. And so yeah, 658 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,879 Speaker 1: that's great. Well, we're getting close to the end of time. 659 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: And I usually ask guests like one kind of final 660 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,719 Speaker 1: question just to get their take on it. So you 661 00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: don't have to answer it from your book, you don't 662 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,759 Speaker 1: have to answer it from anything we talked about. But 663 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: what do you think the church needs to do in 664 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,680 Speaker 1: today's world in order to that maybe it's not doing 665 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,120 Speaker 1: right now now to be and make more faithful disciples 666 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: for Christ. 667 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 2: I think one of the things of two things really, 668 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 2: I sort of joke that the most dangerous or the 669 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,880 Speaker 2: most like self confident person in the world is a 670 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 2: twenty three year old seminarian and the second most self 671 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 2: confident person in the world is a twenty four year 672 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:35,720 Speaker 2: old seminarian. And I think that like what we need, 673 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,440 Speaker 2: at least in part, is a real willingness to be humble, 674 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 2: and with that humility comes not assuming that you have 675 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 2: the answers, and so underneath that I think is I'm 676 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 2: willing to ask questions. You know, this whole book about 677 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 2: wilderness supposes that, as you said, life is not exactly 678 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 2: what we thought it was going to be. It's maybe 679 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,759 Speaker 2: not what we wanted it to be. And why is that? 680 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 2: And there are a lot of people, I think that 681 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 2: are afraid to ask the why questions of and about God, 682 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,719 Speaker 2: And so I think, you know, one way that we 683 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:24,120 Speaker 2: move from a shallow, self assured faith is to really 684 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 2: engage God with honesty. You know, we are we are 685 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:35,880 Speaker 2: our proper selves and prayer often, and I think we 686 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 2: should come to God with honesty and trust that God 687 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 2: will will meet us there and alongside that, not hide 688 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 2: behind whatever talents tools exit Jesus that we want to 689 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 2: cling to, and realize that that spiritual formation and biblical 690 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:05,040 Speaker 2: studies are fully important and needed, and we will do ourselves. Know, 691 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 2: there's a lot of harm if we don't allow God 692 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 2: to excavate our ideas of who God is and who 693 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 2: we are to. 694 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, we didn't get to your final chapter, 695 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,080 Speaker 1: but I really appreciated your treatment of the psalm and 696 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 1: praying through it and the Olipha bait and gimmel, you know, 697 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 1: sort of structure of that it was really helpful, and 698 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: I agree with you. I love the most arrogant person 699 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,960 Speaker 1: as a twenty three year old seminary, and I think 700 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,080 Speaker 1: I was that most arrogant person at one point. 701 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 702 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's really funny, you know, when you think 703 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,359 Speaker 1: back on it, I'm sure you've had this experience as well, 704 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: but it's like I'm a fraction of the arrogance I 705 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,719 Speaker 1: was back then. Yeah, I think I know. Sometimes we 706 00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,080 Speaker 1: had this phenomenon. We give student surveys, you know, we 707 00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,000 Speaker 1: do a Bible knowledge exam, and you kind of get 708 00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: their perception of how well they thought they knew their Bible, 709 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: and it almost always went down at the end of 710 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,000 Speaker 1: their senior years. And I was like, yeah, that's absolutely 711 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:05,839 Speaker 1: probably a good thing. 712 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:07,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 713 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: You know, you should feel like as you go on, 714 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,919 Speaker 1: you understand this in some ways more deeply and more 715 00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: richly than you ever have, But you should also have 716 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,879 Speaker 1: a really deep sense that you have no idea what's 717 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: going on most of the time. 718 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. My husband and I have this conversation 719 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,320 Speaker 2: all the time with each other. Absolutely yeah. 720 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it just I think it speaks to the 721 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: humility that God cultivates in our lives, like as soon 722 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,759 Speaker 1: as we think we have him down, you know, I've 723 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 1: got my systematic theology of daily living nailed down, and 724 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: then some you know, here's the here's the curve ball, 725 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 1: and you go, yeah, that's not right. I didn't right, 726 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 1: that's right. 727 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it pre supposes being awake to life, right, 728 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,360 Speaker 2: like having your eyes open to the world. 729 00:46:54,800 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, well it's been fantastic. I really appreciate you 730 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,399 Speaker 1: coming on and sharing your thoughts. I'd really encourage folks 731 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: to get the book. Again. The title is God in 732 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: the Desert, a Spiritual Theology of Wilderness in the Old Testament, 733 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: and we really just scratch the service, I think on 734 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the topics that you address in the 735 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: book today. So I encourage folks to go get it. 736 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: This is an IVP title. IVP gives Thinking Christian listeners 737 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: a twenty percent discount, So if you link out and 738 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: buy it on the IVP Press site, that link will 739 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 1: be in the show notes, and you put in the 740 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: discount code that's also in the show notes, you'll get 741 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: this book for twenty percent off. So i'd encourage you 742 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,920 Speaker 1: to do that. And yeah, Noell, just really appreciate you 743 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 1: being on and thanks so much for being here. 744 00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, James. It's been a pleasure, all. 745 00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:44,320 Speaker 1: Right, everybody, Thanks for sticking with us, Thanks for listening. 746 00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 1: Go out get the book and learn a little bit 747 00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 1: more about how to deal with God in the wilderness. 748 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: We'll take care everybody, and we'll see on the next 749 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I just want to take a 750 00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: second to thank the team at Life Audio for their 751 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you 752 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 1: go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other 753 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,600 Speaker 1: faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, 754 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:08,640 Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.