1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: What are just some common misconceptions about the rapture? 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: Paul says in First Thessalonians fifteen that we will not 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: all die, we will not all sleep, but we'll all 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: be changed in the twinkling of an eye. So there's 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: this instantaneous change glorification that occurs when Christ returns at 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: the resurrection, and so often in popular depictions of the rapture, 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: you know, there's car crashes and a set of clothes, 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, sitting at an empty desk, things like that. 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: It's possible that that kind of thing would happen. But 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: what happens when there's this instantaneous change and people are 12 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: caught up? I would just say, well, the Bible doesn't 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: actually say that that's what's going to happen. That's more 14 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: of a popular depiction on what happens at the rapture. 15 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 2: What does the Bible actually teach about the rapture? Do 16 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 2: we have any signs of when it may happen? If so, 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: what are they and are we close back due to 18 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: popular demand? Is Talbot New Testament professor Alan Holtberg, who 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 2: specializes not only the New Testament but taught a lot 20 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: of classes and for years been studying the Book of 21 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: Revelation to make sense this for us. So thanks for 22 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: coming back. 23 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. 24 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: Let's just start off with what do we mean by 25 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: the rapture? 26 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: What is it? Yeah, the rapture is a doctrine that's 27 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: taken from First Thessalonians four, when Paul says that we 28 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: will not all sleep or we will not all die 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: before the coming of the Lord. But when the Lord comes, 30 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: those who have died in Christ will be resurrected, and 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: we who are alive and remain will be caught up 32 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds. 33 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: And thus we will always be with the Lord. And 34 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: that language of being caught up into the clouds in 35 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: Latin it becomes the English word rapture. And so the 36 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: rapture is the catching up of living and newly living 37 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: resurrected saints at the return of Christ. 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: We're gonna get into some of the different views like 39 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: pretribulationism in mid trip, et cetera before we do. So, 40 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 2: what are just some common misconceptions about the rapture? These say, 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 2: let's clear these maybe from the air before we dive in. 42 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if this is a misperception per se. 43 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: But you know, Paul says in First Thessalonians fifteen that 44 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: we will not all die, we will not all sleep, 45 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: but we'll all be changed in a moment, in the 46 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,279 Speaker 1: twinkling of an eye. So there's this instantaneous change glorification 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: that occurs when Christ returns at the resurrection and. 48 00:02:59,440 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: So on. 49 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Often in popular depictions of the rapture, you know, there's 50 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: car crashes and a set of clothes, you know, sitting 51 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: at an empty desk and things like that. It's possible 52 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: that that kind of thing would happen, But you know, 53 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: the Bible doesn't say that. It's trying to speculate on 54 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: what happens when there's this instantaneous change and people are 55 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: caught up. Another would be, you know, you sort of 56 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 1: see people floating up into the sky. Now again, Jesus 57 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: was caught up into the clouds at his ascension, and 58 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: the disciples, the apostles were able to watch him being 59 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: caught up into the clouds, and so it's possible that 60 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: that will be. But it's again speculation. So you know, 61 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: anybody who might think that that's silly, I would just say, well, 62 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: the Bible doesn't actually say that that's what's going to happen. 63 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: That's more of a popular depiction on what happens at the. 64 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 2: Rap Even pointing is out, I think illustrates how much 65 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: our idea of the rapture is framed by kids, Bible 66 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: story books, movies that we've watched, maybe sermons that we've heard, 67 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: and we don't always clearly delineate what is, you know, fiction, 68 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: We're inventing what it might look like from what the 69 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: Bible teaches. That's in part why we're gonna do this 70 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 2: or we are doing this now. Before we get into 71 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 2: debate about when the rapture may happen, is there a 72 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 2: debate about whether or not there even is a rapture 73 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: and what would that debate be about? 74 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, there is, although usually the debate is whether there 75 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: will be and and any moment rapture like sort of 76 00:04:54,360 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: is popularly depicted. Everybody agrees. Paul talks about something thing 77 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: in First Thessalonians for what exactly is that? So some 78 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: might say, well, that's kind of metaphorical for instantly going 79 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: into the presence of Christ or something like that, as 80 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: opposed to floating up into the clouds. But the debate 81 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: is kind of like more like what does that look 82 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 1: like the other part of the debate is on the timing, 83 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: because those who are most committed to sort of the 84 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: popular view of the rapture would place that sometime before 85 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: the actual return of Christ to earth. And most people 86 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: who say there is no rapture, what they mean is 87 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: there's no rapture like you're talking about it. That it's 88 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: just the return of Christ to earth. And so if 89 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: you would say, well, what is the first Thessalonians for 90 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: talking about, they would just they would say, okay, well, 91 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: that's just the return of Christ and what happens to 92 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: us at the return of Christ or something, So they 93 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: don't like to use the term rapture usually for okay, 94 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: well that's fair enough. 95 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: And I think some of this will come out as 96 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: we get into the different views. So let's start with 97 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: one again like we did with our other discussion and 98 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 2: millennium no particular order. The first one would be pre tribulationism. 99 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 2: So what is that view and what are some of 100 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 2: the key passages maybe used to support it. 101 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so pre tribulationism is called that because it says 102 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: that the rapture occurs before the tribulation. The tribulation in 103 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: pre tribulationism is the the what's sometimes called the seventieth 104 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 1: Week of Daniel. So in Daniel chapter nine, Daniel is 105 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: told about the periodization of time in which God is 106 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: going to fulfill his promises to Israel, and the first 107 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: sixty nine weeks, and so it's schematized as a period 108 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: of seventy not literally weeks, but seventy periods of seven, 109 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: probably seventy seven year periods, and so sixty nine of 110 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: them lead up to the coming of Messiah, and the seventieth, 111 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: the last of those seventy weeks, has to do with 112 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: the abomination of desolation and a great tribulation in which 113 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: God's people are persecuted by an Antichrist, and they end 114 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: with the coming of the Son of Man. And this 115 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: is kind of taking other passages from Daniel and reading 116 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: them into Daniel chapter nine, And so pre tribulationists would say, 117 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, pre tribulationists would say, the rapture occurs 118 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning of that seventieth week, that last seven 119 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: year period of earthly of this age, and then at 120 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: the end of that seventieth week, Christ returns with his 121 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: saints to earth. They call that entire period the tribulation. 122 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: So the tribulation is equivalent or co extensive with Daniel's 123 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: seventieth week. In the other views, that's not the case. 124 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 2: Okay, guests, So we'll come back to the other views 125 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: pre tribulation. I mean, I just think this from like 126 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: pre millennial, pre millennial is that Christ comes back before 127 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 2: the millennial reign. Pre tribulation is that Christ would remove 128 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: believers from the tribulation period, and so we would not 129 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: experience that tribulation period that's talked about in other parts 130 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: of revelation. 131 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, they probably wouldn't say they'll be removed from 132 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: the tribulation period, but that they will be removed before 133 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: the tribulation period. Yeah. 134 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: Okay, So what's the difference from the tribulation because. 135 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: The others would say we will go into that period, 136 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: the church will experience that period of time and be 137 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: raptured out from oh that time. Okay, Yeah, so I 138 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: got it. I see what the point is. 139 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: All right, So, how would pre tribulationism fit into a 140 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 2: larger scatological framework. 141 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, generally, Well, so it would argue for premillennialism that 142 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: when Christ returns, there will be an flee kingdom. Pre 143 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:16,479 Speaker 1: Tribulationism is particularly tied to dispensationalism, and especially classical dispensationalism. 144 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: Within that view of the Church and Israel and the 145 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: end times, God deals with Israel as his covenant people 146 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: up to the coming of Christ, the first coming of 147 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: Christ in the first century, Israel rejected Christ as its king, 148 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: and now God is dealing with the Church, and so 149 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: the church forms, the way it was said classically, a 150 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: parenthesis in God's dealing with Israel, the Church needs to 151 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: be taken out of the Earth so that in the 152 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: seventieth week God can go back to dealing with Israe 153 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: as his covenant people. And so that's a dispensational schema 154 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: distinguishing the Church in Israel in pretty hard and fast 155 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: terms in classical dispensationalism, and therefore requiring the Church to 156 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: be absent from Earth in order for God to deal 157 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: with Israel during the seventieth Week of Daniel. 158 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, good, all right, So that's pre tribulationism, 159 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 2: mid tribulationism. 160 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I don't know that there are any mid 161 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 1: tribulationists around any longer. Oh really, Okay, that view has 162 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: been supplanted by or maybe modified or or perfected, if 163 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: you want to put it that way, by what's called 164 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: pre wrath tribulation. So in this view, God pouring out 165 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: his wrath on earth, which we get particularly in First 166 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: and Second Thessalonians. Paul talks about God's wrath being poured 167 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: out in Revelation. It's we're told about God's wrath being 168 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: poured out on the earth before the coming of Christ. 169 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: They distinguish that period of God's wrath from the tribulation. 170 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: The tribulation is the period of time that the Antichrist 171 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: persecutes the people of God in Daniel where he persecutes Israel, 172 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: and in Revelation where he persecutes the Church. And we 173 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 1: can imagine the Antichrist persecutes anybody who is opposed to 174 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: the worship of Antichrist, so that'd probably also be faithful 175 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: Muslims or anybody else, you know, could be atheists or something. 176 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, but the focus is on Israel in 177 00:12:52,800 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: the Church. So in the pre wrath view, Christ is 178 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: revealed halfway through the seventieth week of Daniel according to 179 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: Revelation nine and Second Thesalonians two, and perhaps Matthew twenty four, 180 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: and begins his persecution of the Church after he reveals 181 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: himself to the world and demands worldwide worship. That's a 182 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,839 Speaker 1: period of three and a half years at the end 183 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: of that seventieth week. And so pre wrath position agrees 184 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: with a pre tribulational position that the Church will not 185 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: experience God's wrath according to second first Thesalonians five, for instance, 186 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:48,680 Speaker 1: and so they will experience persecution by Antichrist. But God 187 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: will then rapture the Church and then pour out his 188 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,439 Speaker 1: wrath on the world, on the kingdom of the Beast. 189 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 1: And so it's like pre tribulationism in that the Church 190 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 1: doesn't experience God's wrath. The rapture of the Church precedes 191 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: the return of Christ to Earth to reign in a 192 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: substantial period of time. But it disagrees with the pre 193 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: tribulation position in that the Church will will go into 194 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: the tribulation and be rescued from the tribulation. So pre 195 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: tribulationism equates the wrath of God and the tribulation. Pre 196 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: wrath view does not equate those two things. 197 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: So both protect from the wrath and what we tend 198 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: to associate with the tribulation. Although the pre wrath would 199 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 2: say no, they're into the tribulation halfway through, preserved from 200 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: that wrath. 201 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 1: So they share that in common. Yeah. And and the 202 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: reason it's not a mid trib view. It says that 203 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: the Church will will be on earth past the middle 204 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: of the of the seventieth week of Daniel, but we 205 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: don't know how far past the middle of the seventieth 206 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: week of Daniel, God begins to pour out his wrath 207 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: on the on the earth. And so it could be 208 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: ten days past that, it could be two years past that. 209 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: We don't know that, and so uh and so it's 210 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: just called a pre wrath view. It's it's it's it's 211 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: unlinked from the middle of the tribulation, the middle of 212 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: the tribulation. What this, what characterizes the middle of the 213 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: tribulation is the abomination of desolation, the what Paul calls 214 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: the revelation of the Man of sin in Second Thessalonians. 215 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 2: Too, so pre trib there's the sense of like Jeez 216 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: could come back at any moment, Raps is gone, clothes 217 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: left behind, his ways depicted. Tribulation begins in what used 218 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: to be somewhat called mid tribe. Even though there's differences 219 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 2: with the pre wrath view, which is around the middle 220 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: of the tribulation. Well, people know that they're in the tribulation, 221 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 2: will be obvious that these things are happen or do 222 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: they differ over its obviousness? 223 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: I would say they are at least should be able 224 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: to know under this view. So let me back up 225 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: for a seconds. Yeah, the strongest evidence for a pre 226 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: tribulation rapture, using the label pre tribulation in the way 227 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: that they want to use it, is the fact that 228 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: we won't know the day or hour of the of 229 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: the coming of Christ, and so in order to preserve 230 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: that imminence, what's what's usually referred to as imminence, the 231 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: imminence of the return of Christ or the imminence of 232 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: the rapture, in order to preserve the absolute unknowableness of that, 233 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: they have to say there are no signs, nothing can 234 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: precede the coming of Christ, or for the church in 235 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: pre wrath or mid trib or also a third view, 236 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: post trib the church will see the abomination of desolation 237 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: and the rise of Antichrist and experience the persecution that 238 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: Antichrist pours out on the people of God. And so 239 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 1: pre tribulationists would say, look, if you can see those signs, 240 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: then you know the second Coming of Christ is right 241 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: around the corner. So it's not absolutely imminent. Now I 242 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: would argue that it doesn't have to be absolutely imminent, 243 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: but that's kind of the strongest argument for pre tribulationism. 244 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 1: The difficulty is that Paul warns the church they're going 245 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: to see the abomination of desolation, and second Desalonians too, 246 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: Jesus warned the church, although people will argue whether he's 247 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: warning the church or not, that they will see the 248 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:12,880 Speaker 1: abomination of desolation in Matthew twenty four, and so whatever 249 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:17,680 Speaker 1: imminence means, it has to be compatible with being able 250 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: to recognize the abomination of desolation as well. Some would 251 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: argue the abomination of desolation occurred in the first century 252 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: when the Romans destroyed the Temple, and therefore it has 253 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: already happened, So now the rapture could happen at any 254 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: time after that. Yeah, God, but generally pre tribulationists don't 255 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: argue that way. 256 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: So let's shift to the third one that you mentioned, 257 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 2: post tribulationism. What is it and what are some of 258 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: the common past arguments people might make for it? 259 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, So post tribulationism says the rapture occurs simultaneously with 260 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: the return of Christ to Earth at the end of 261 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: let's just say Daniel seventieth week, at the end of 262 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: In this case, pre wrath and post tribulationists all argue 263 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: the tribulation is the period of time that the Antichrist 264 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: is persecuting the Church, so that persecution of the Church 265 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,959 Speaker 1: will end with the return of Christ. And so they 266 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: just say the rapture happens at the exact same time, 267 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: so the Church is caught up to meet the Lord 268 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: in the air and just immediately comes back down to 269 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: Earth with the Lord at his second coming. The same 270 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: arguments that pre wrath scholars would make for the Church 271 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: entering the tribulation and beginning to experience the persecution of 272 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: Antichrist are the exact same arguments post tribulationists made what 273 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 1: post chirulationists disagree with, And in this case they disagree 274 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: both with pre tribulationists and pre Wrath rapturists that there's 275 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: any significant period of time between the rapture and the 276 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: return of Christ to Earth, and they would just generally 277 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: they just argue that those events are not clearly separated 278 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: anywhere in the New Testament, and that all the things 279 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: associated with the return of Christ, like the resurrection, especially 280 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,640 Speaker 1: the resurrection of the Saints, happen at the rapture. Therefore 281 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: the rapture must happen at the second coming of Christ. 282 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 1: That's kind of the basic argument. 283 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's great, that's really helpful. So on pre 284 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 2: trib you mentioned Israel. Is that unique to pre trib 285 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: Does pre wrath post tribulation explain how Israel would play 286 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 2: out in light of those three. 287 00:20:54,480 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, all three of them can maintain a few sure 288 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: for the nation of Israel as God's uh covenant nation. 289 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: The argument from pre tribulationism is that it's im They 290 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: don't usually say it this way, but this is what 291 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: they mean. It's impossible for God to have both the 292 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 1: Church as a covenant people and Israel, the nation of Israel, 293 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: as a covenant people on earth, at the same time. 294 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: And pre wrath and post tribulationists can just say, why 295 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 1: is that impossible? And because they're dealing there are two 296 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: different things. The Church is not a nation, a national entity, 297 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: and Israel is a national entity. The Church isn't a 298 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: geopolitical entity, but Israel is and we would I would 299 00:21:54,359 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: argue that the Church is really is related to to 300 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: Israel and the promises to Israel in a certain way 301 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: that that you can't easily just pull them apart the 302 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: way a pre tribulationist would would want to do, so 303 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: all of them can maintain a future for Israel. Usually, 304 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: because post tribulationism is kind of the that's generally the 305 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: most among scholars, the most widely accepted view, because it's 306 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: the simplest view. You don't have to start having different 307 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 1: sorts of events happening, that all just sort of happens 308 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: at the return of Christ. So you can be you 309 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: don't have to be a pre tribulationist to be You 310 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: don't have to be a premillennialist in order to be 311 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:52,399 Speaker 1: a pre tribulation I'm sorry, let's try this again. You 312 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: don't have to be a pre millennialist. You don't have 313 00:22:54,840 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: to believe that Jesus will establish an earthly reign after 314 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: his return in order to be a post tribulationist. In 315 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: other words, you can be an amillennialist and just say 316 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: Jesus is reigning now from heaven, and when he returns, 317 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,320 Speaker 1: the living saints who will be caught up to meet 318 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,360 Speaker 1: him on his return, and then he's going to establish 319 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: the new heavens and the new Earth. You could say 320 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: the same thing for a post millennialist. Jesus is reigning 321 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 1: from heaven while the Church subjugates all the nations in 322 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: the world to his lordship. But when he returns, living 323 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: saints will be caught up together with him. So post 324 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: tribulationism or a rapture that occurs simultaneous with the return 325 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: of Christ can fit just about any position pre wrath 326 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: pre trib that generally goes more with pre I mean, 327 00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: with the pre millennialism. Got it? 328 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. I think you somewhat have answered this. 329 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: But which one do you hold and why? What's your take? 330 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: I hold to the pre wrath view. And on the 331 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: one hand, because of Paul and Jesus warning the church 332 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 1: or telling the church that they will see the abomination 333 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: of desolation, and Jesus warning the church about the great 334 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: tribulation that follows that in Matthew twenty four and John 335 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: warning about that in Revelation thirteen and et cetera. But 336 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 1: Revelation Paul says the church will not experience the wrath 337 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: of God and for Thessalonians five, that can mean, and 338 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: some people take it to mean we won't experience his 339 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: wrath at the Great White Throne judgment. But it's in 340 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: a context in which he's arguing about the rapture of 341 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: the church, first Thessalonians four and five, and in First 342 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 1: Thessalonians one, where he's talking about wrath being poured out 343 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: on those who are persecuting the church. It seems to 344 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: be he's not talking about Great White Throne wrath. He's 345 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 1: talking about the kind of wrath that Revelation talks about. 346 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: In Revelation, we have a depiction, in my opinion, of 347 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: the church raptured in Revelation seven, when a multitude from 348 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: every tribe and tongue and nation appears in heaven before 349 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: the throne, and then God's wrath is poured out on 350 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: the earth. In the the trumpet judgments in Revelation eight 351 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: and nine. In Revelation fourteen, a similar thing happens. The 352 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: Son of Man comes on the clouds and harvests the earth, 353 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: and then God's wrath is poured out. Well, that's an 354 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: image that comes from Jesus' teaching on his return. In 355 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 1: Matthew twenty four, for instance, where the Son of Man 356 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: will come and harvest the earth during this period of tribulation. 357 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: In that case, he sends forth his angels to gather 358 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: his elect And so I think Revelation makes clear the 359 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: Church is raptured before God's wrath is poured out, and 360 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: that wrath is not Sometimes a post tribulationists who say, yeah, 361 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 1: all those things happen all at the same time. Jesus 362 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 1: comes returns, pours out God's wrath and the Church's rapture, 363 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: and I think, how does that actually happen? I mean, 364 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: is it all like one second of wrath, one second 365 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: of you know, or is it all instantaneous or what? 366 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: Because in Revelation, the period of wrath is a significant 367 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: period of time the very least, you know, it says 368 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: the locusts harm mankind, those who don't have the mark 369 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: on their forehead, that God's mark on their forehead harms 370 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: them for a period of five months. And again, whether 371 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: it's literally five months or not, it's certainly not instantaneous. 372 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: It's some lengthy period of time. And just the way 373 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: those judgments are portrayed, even if they're not, you know, 374 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: literally going to happen exactly the way they're depicted, but 375 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: they suggest there's a period of a long period of 376 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 1: beast worshipers suffering God's wrath before the return of Christ. 377 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: And so I think in Revelation seven we have this. 378 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: In Revelation six, the Lamb takes the scroll Revelation five. 379 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: He begins to open the seals in Revelation six, and 380 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: there are certain phenomena that occur as he opens the seals. 381 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: When he opens the sixth seal, there are cosmic disturbances, 382 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: things that happen in heaven. And the people on earth say, 383 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: to the mountains and the hills, hide us, because the 384 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: great day of God's wrath and the wrath of the 385 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: Lamb has arrived. And then Revelation seven, it says, and 386 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: now I'm going to paraphrase, but hold on a second, 387 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: wait until we seal the servants of God on their forehead. 388 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: And I heard the number of those sealed, one hundred 389 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: and forty four thousand. Then I saw this great multitude 390 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: in heaven, from every tribe and tongue and nation. Then 391 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: the seventh seal was broken, and God's wrath was poured 392 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: out on the earth. And so it seems to me 393 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: John is saying, before God pours out his wrath, he 394 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: will take the church to heaven and leave on earth 395 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: this one hundred and forty four thousand, which I believe 396 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: represents a believing remnant of Israel. And if you want, 397 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: you can ask why you think so, But they stay 398 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: on earth. And the same thing is sort of reiterated 399 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: in Revelation fourteen and perhaps Revelation fifteen. Those who had 400 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: come off victorious from the beast are standing in heaven 401 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: before the bowl judgments are poured out. So three times over, 402 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 1: as John goes over these events, there's a significant appearance 403 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 1: of God servants in heaven before he pours out his wrath. 404 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like the existential concern for Christians would 405 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: be pre trib and pre wrath versus post trib. 406 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: Like, are we going to live through this yeah, terrible 407 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: time or not? 408 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: Whether or not we see the beginning of it and 409 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 2: the bomination of desolation coming, that seems to be maybe 410 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: one of the key dividing lines. Yes, but I would 411 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: love to know, Like historically, when we talked about the millennium, 412 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: you said, really the majority of the church pre I 413 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: think you said Nicia was pre millennial. For the most 414 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: it was really Augustine. Now we're moving in like the 415 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: fifth century who put a millennialism on the map, and 416 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 2: that dominated even through the reformers, and then today it's 417 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 2: probably some split between pre millennial and between all millennial 418 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: and then a smaller would be post millennial simplified. But 419 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: that was the case. Can we break up his into 420 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 2: that kind of like simple frameworkers that much more convoluted 421 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 2: When it comes to the tribulation, It's. 422 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: A little more difficult to determine exactly, but here's my 423 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: reading on it. The early Church was post tribulational. They 424 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: expected the church to experience the tribulation and be raptured 425 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: when when Jesus returned. That held sway. There were dissenting 426 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: voices into the early nineteenth century, so there's a a 427 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: kind of A famous medieval pre tribulationist was a Jesuit priest, 428 00:31:52,800 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: not pre tribulationist, but well, let's just say pre tribulationists 429 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: was a Jesuit precinct few fiory. I can't I can't 430 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: remember his last name now, but pre tribulationism really took 431 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: off mh among the Plymouth Brethren in England under the 432 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: teaching of Nelson Darby. But Charles Nelson Derby and UH 433 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: and came to the United States in evangelistic efforts and 434 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: things like that, and became the predominant view among UH 435 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 1: Baptistic and Pietistic churches, and UH and eventually then Pentecostal churches, 436 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: et cetera. Still in mainline denominations, it didn't it didn't 437 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: take hold now among evangelicals that that became sort of 438 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: the the dominant view and almost like the the unexamined view. 439 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: For a while, there were in opposition to that still 440 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: evangelicals who who argued for post tribulationism, and then those 441 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 1: who argued for mid tribulationism. Mid tribulationism has now more 442 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: recently morphed into pre wrath rapturism. And so I would 443 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: say pre wrath rapturism, like mid tribulationism, is the minority 444 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: view for sure among most evangelicals. UH, pre tribulationism is 445 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: still the dominant view, but post tribulationism is still also 446 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 1: a dominant. 447 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 2: Is there a difference if we look at because you're 448 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 2: talking about kind of the culture. If we look in 449 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: the scholarly world. 450 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: In the scholarly world much much more heavily uh lined 451 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: up with post tribulationism. Perhaps well, pre wrath rapturism is 452 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: growing and maybe is greater among New Testament scholars. Okay, 453 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: pre tribulationism is still held to by a number of scholars, 454 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: but not most who work in eschatology, and especially among 455 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: kind of old guard dispensational or connected to dispensationalism scholars. 456 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 1: So it's I mean, I don't, I don't. I wouldn't 457 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: know how to put percentages on I wouldn't, but I 458 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: would say, yeah, I would say pre tribulationism has been questioned. 459 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: Whereas before it was sort of the unquestioned position. Now 460 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: it's been questioned quite quite a lot more. 461 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 2: That's fascinating. So if you lay out for us we've 462 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 2: had we've had a conversation with millennium layout for us 463 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 2: kind of piece together and I know there's so many 464 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: nuances of this, how you see kind of the end 465 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 2: times coming, like the big pieces like where does the 466 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 2: tribulation fit, where's the millennium fit? Where is the White 467 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: Throne or the Great Throne judgment fit the return of Christ? 468 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 2: Like just piece those big things together for us. 469 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: If you will. Yeah, So I would say the first, 470 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: probably the first event would be the a movement back 471 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: to God the Jews. So interestingly, like in Israel today, 472 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: Israel is a very secular nation today. Even though there 473 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:15,520 Speaker 1: are you know, Jews who maintain mosaic laws and you know, 474 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: try to live in a covenant relationship with God, most 475 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: Jews don't. And you know, similarly in the United States 476 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 1: there are a lot of Jews who are even atheistic 477 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: or irreligious, celebrate Hanka and things like that, but not 478 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: more culturally than faithfully. So I would say, first we're 479 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: going to see a movement of Israel to God or 480 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: Jews toward God. There will be, and it's hard to 481 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: determine exactly the sequence of these, a greater move of 482 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: Israel back into the land of His Isel, perhaps even 483 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: facilitated by the rise of a political figure who somehow 484 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: makes it possible for that to happen. So I would 485 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: imagine somehow quote unquote solves the Mid East crisis in 486 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: the middest problem, I would say, it also allows for 487 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: a rebuilding of the temple toy Yahweh in Jerusalem because 488 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: this geopolitical figure, it says in Daniel, he makes a 489 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: covenant with the Many for one week. That's what starts 490 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: the seventieth week of Daniel. So somehow he's involved in 491 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: guaranteeing Israel's right to the land, and because there's going 492 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 1: to be a temple that figures into the events also 493 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: Israel's right to build a temple. But three and a 494 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: half years into that time period, give or take again 495 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: in apocalyptic literature, I'm not going to quibble over the 496 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: exact length of times, but into that time period, he will, 497 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: according to Paul and Second Thesalonians, to take his seat 498 00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,280 Speaker 1: in the Temple of God and proclaim himself as being 499 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 1: God and demand worldwide worship Revelation thirteen, as well performing 500 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: signs that Jesus said, if possible, would deceive even the 501 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: very elect. So when you said, you know, will people 502 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: recognize it some while back, and I said, they should 503 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 1: be able to recognize it, because you'd think, here's some 504 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: guy proclaiming himself as being God and demanding worldwide worship. 505 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: People with their eyes open, we go, that's the anti Christ, right, 506 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: you know. But it also says he performs deceptive signs 507 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 1: to the extent they're so deceptive that they could even 508 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: deceive the very elect So most people in the world 509 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 1: are going to just go along with things because he's 510 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,399 Speaker 1: so deceptive about it. So exactly you know how that 511 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 1: plays out, I don't exactly know, but all I would 512 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: say is a lot of people will be blind to 513 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 1: what is going on and worship the beast. That guy, 514 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 1: after proclaiming myself as being God, will begin to persecute 515 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: anybody who doesn't worship him. That would be the best 516 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: ginning of matribulation before cake. 517 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: So just to make sure I understand the signs we 518 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 2: would be looking for, you understand, is Israel returning back 519 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 2: to the land in greater numbers. We've obviously seen that 520 00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty seven, nineteen forty eight Israel more Jews 521 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 2: believing in Jesus is still or at. 522 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: Least being being believing in God and in their status 523 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: before God. 524 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 2: Okay, So not necessarily messianicah Jews that's their important thing. 525 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: Is not necessarily okay? Yeah. Only the only reason I 526 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: say that is because at the rapture of the Church, 527 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,960 Speaker 1: the way I see it in Revelation seven is when 528 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 1: the one hundred and forty four thousand are sealed, and 529 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: we're told in Revelation fourteen. These follow the Lamb wherever 530 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: he goes, and so these and the language and the 531 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: imagery used for them, so sealing them on their forehead, 532 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: that's imagery that comes out of Ezekiel. Nine. Before the 533 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:57,240 Speaker 1: destruction of Jerusalem, God sends these angels throughout the population 534 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,839 Speaker 1: of Jerusalem, and everybody who worships Yah way, who isn't 535 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: involved in idolatry, are given a seal, a mark on 536 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: their foreheads. And then another angel goes through and he's 537 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: told kill everybody who doesn't have the mark on their forehead. 538 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 1: So the numbering of these people, they're numbered. You know, 539 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: they're explicitly numbered, right. John repeats this over and over again. 540 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: Twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from 541 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:32,920 Speaker 1: the tribe of Judah, et cetera. Makes a number of 542 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: one hundred and forty four thousand, which is clearly a 543 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: symbolic number, but it suggests these are Messianic Jews who 544 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: who represent the remnant of Israel that's going to is 545 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: going to assure the Covenant promises to Israel, as Paul 546 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:55,560 Speaker 1: argues in Romans nine to eleven. Anyway, they're going to 547 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 1: stay on earth. But then this innumerable multitude from every 548 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: tongue and nations. So they are distinguished from this explicitly 549 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:11,440 Speaker 1: numbered group, from the tribes of Israel. They're distinguished from that. 550 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: They're innumerable, and they're from every tribe, tongue in nation, 551 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: which in Revelation five are those that the Lamb has 552 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:23,200 Speaker 1: redeemed they appear in heaven. So the way I understand 553 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 1: it is at the rapture of the Church, there will 554 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: be a mass turning of Israel to Christ, and that 555 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: that will eventually, you know, be fulfilled in all of Israel, 556 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 1: Paul says at the return of Christ in Romans nine 557 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: Romans eleven. Anyway, so some kind of turning to Christ 558 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: among the Jews, and certainly at least a movement toward 559 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: God among the Jews in. 560 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 2: The land, some movement towards God. We're not yet at 561 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:09,920 Speaker 2: the returns, specifically towards Christ, rebuilding the temple, anti Christ 562 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 2: sets himself up to perform sacrifices, worship him as God. 563 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,160 Speaker 2: And then you're at the point where then the wrath begins, 564 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:19,560 Speaker 2: which is the tribulation. 565 00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: Keep going. Yeah, so the Church is raptured, then God's 566 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: wrath is poured out on the on the kingdom of 567 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: the Beast, on the on the whole world that's worshiping 568 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: the beast. We're told that those who have the mark 569 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:38,160 Speaker 1: will not experience God's wrath, but everyone who doesn't have 570 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: the mark, who has the mark of the beast. In 571 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,120 Speaker 1: other words, you either have the mark of God and 572 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:44,000 Speaker 1: you don't experience his wrath, or you have the mark 573 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: of the Beast and you do experience God's wrath, and 574 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:53,480 Speaker 1: then Jesus will will return to Well. The nations are 575 00:43:53,480 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 1: gathered for the Battle of Armageddon, which in the Old 576 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: Testament is the eschatological battle occurs outside of Jerusalem as 577 00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: the Nations come to conquer Jerusalem and Zechariah twelve, the 578 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: Lord returns and defeats the Nations and establishes his kingdom. 579 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,480 Speaker 1: In Revelation fourteen, and the nations, I mean, in Zechariah fourteen, 580 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 1: the Nations come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord. So 581 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: the Nations gather against Israel. Jesus returns, defeats the Nations, 582 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,720 Speaker 1: and the Beast throws the beast in the false prophet 583 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: into the Lake of Fire reigns for a thousand years. 584 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 1: I would argue premillennially from Jerusalem over the Nations, at 585 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,759 Speaker 1: the end of which time Satan is released from his 586 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:59,360 Speaker 1: bondage and gathers the nations for a final thrust. He 587 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,800 Speaker 1: is destroyed, thrown in the Lake of Fire. God raises 588 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: everyone else from the dead and judges them. They're thrown 589 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,959 Speaker 1: into the lake of fire. If your name is found 590 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: written in the Book of Life, you're not thrown into 591 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: the Lake of fire. And then the is the New 592 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: Heavens and the New Earth, depicted as the New Jerusalem, 593 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,399 Speaker 1: coming down out of Heaven to Earth, so that Heaven 594 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: and Earth merge in the eternal state. God's presence is 595 00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 1: among his people on Earth, and they live in rain 596 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: forever in fulfillment of their original destiny. Right Adam and 597 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: Eve created in order to rein over the Earth. Humanity 598 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 1: lives that out finally in the New Heavens and the 599 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:52,600 Speaker 1: New Earth, and. 600 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,360 Speaker 2: Then the cycle starts again. No, just kidding, just plain 601 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 2: that would be a whole different conversation. We would have 602 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:04,040 Speaker 2: very well laid out that. That was incredibly helpful. I 603 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,920 Speaker 2: appreciate you piecing together of this way. So in these 604 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 2: conversations I've interviewed John Lennox twice. He's got a new 605 00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 2: book on revelation that's fascinating. We've done some of the 606 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 2: shorter dives. Is your take on then people say, we 607 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 2: got a newspaper in one hand, get the Bible in 608 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,240 Speaker 2: the other. This doesn't kind of reading between the lines. 609 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 2: They seem like pretty crystal clear signs. We've seen Israel 610 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 2: back in the land significant returning belief in God. But 611 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,560 Speaker 2: again it doesn't tell us like twenty five percent, what 612 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 2: is significant eighty percent? But setting up the temple and 613 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 2: offering sacrifices and claiming to be God, that seems for 614 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 2: anybody who's paying attention, that's obviously a sign, like you 615 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:49,399 Speaker 2: can't miss that one. 616 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,960 Speaker 1: And I think that's exactly what Jesus says in Matthew 617 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: twenty four. Okay, you know they're at the temple, right, 618 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 1: and the disciples a man, isn't the temple impressive? It's 619 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,200 Speaker 1: a source of national pride for Israel and religious pride. Right. 620 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: We are the people of God and this is Yahwe's 621 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,600 Speaker 1: temple where we worship Yahweh, carrying out our covenant obligations 622 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:18,399 Speaker 1: to God. And Jesus says, you know, well, I tell 623 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:20,759 Speaker 1: you this temple is going to be destroyed, not one 624 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,680 Speaker 1: stone is going to be standing upon another. And his 625 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: disciples hear that as an eschatological event, because in Daniel nine, 626 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,440 Speaker 1: that's exactly what it is, that the people of the 627 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: Prince to come will destroy the city and its sanctuary 628 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: before the seventieth week. And so they say to him, well, 629 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: when will these things be? And what is the sign 630 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,360 Speaker 1: of your coming in the end of the age. And 631 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 1: Jesus begins to tell them things that they're going to 632 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: see in the destruction of the temple, and he says, 633 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:59,040 Speaker 1: but the end is not yet. However, verse fifteen of 634 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,839 Speaker 1: Matthew twenty four. When you see the abomination of desolation 635 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: spoken of by Daniel the prophet, then flee, because then 636 00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: there will be the great tribulation such as never happened, 637 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,080 Speaker 1: quoting from Daniel twelve to one. And then at the 638 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:18,239 Speaker 1: end of the tribulation of those days, the sign of 639 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and he 640 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: will send forth his angels together his elect So Jesus 641 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,000 Speaker 1: seems to say, look, you're gonna see all kinds of 642 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: things that look like the world's coming to the end. 643 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: When you see the abomination of desolation. Then you know, 644 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,360 Speaker 1: things are the end is quickly approaching. 645 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,319 Speaker 2: Okay, So on your view, if I understand correctly, we 646 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,800 Speaker 2: should less be thinking any second, like in five seconds, 647 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:49,320 Speaker 2: Jeez could come back. It's soon, and there's a quickness 648 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,040 Speaker 2: to his returning, but there's still certain things that have 649 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 2: to take place before the rapture and the tribulation itself. 650 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be my view and the view of 651 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,960 Speaker 1: post tribulationists as well. Okay. Yeah, And so we could 652 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:12,600 Speaker 1: say a couple of things. I don't that stuff could 653 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 1: happen tomorrow, maybe tomorrow some you know. Let's now, I'm 654 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:21,279 Speaker 1: not saying Trump is the Anti Christ or anything, but 655 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,360 Speaker 1: you know, let's say that, you know, there's this stuff 656 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: going on in Middle East. Let's say he broke hers 657 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: some sort of a deal that just solves the problem. Okay, 658 00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:36,200 Speaker 1: that could happen tomorrow, which means, wow, we just started 659 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:43,360 Speaker 1: the seventieth week of Daniel. It's also possible that a 660 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: temple is built in Jerusalem, but it's there for a 661 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: million years before the Anti Christ arrives and sets up, 662 00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:57,239 Speaker 1: you know, and requires worship or something like that. So 663 00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,920 Speaker 1: even if a temple is built, I don't still know 664 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,080 Speaker 1: whether that's the teen you know, that's the thing. It's 665 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,240 Speaker 1: when the anti Christ declares himself as God and demands 666 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:19,920 Speaker 1: worldwide worship. Even then, I don't know exactly when it's 667 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,279 Speaker 1: gonna you know, when Jesus is gonna come, or when 668 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,000 Speaker 1: the breath of God is going to be poured out. 669 00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 1: So I think I mentioned this once before, but I 670 00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,600 Speaker 1: think of it this way. Someone can say to me, 671 00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm going to come to your house after twelve, 672 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,320 Speaker 1: So I know when twelve o'clock HiT's on the clock, 673 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,400 Speaker 1: they're coming sometime sometime soon. But I don't know if 674 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:47,520 Speaker 1: it's going to be twelve oh one or four point 675 00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: thirty in the afternoon or in the evening, you know. 676 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:53,839 Speaker 1: So there can be signs, and still that doesn't mean 677 00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: that therefore the rapture or the return of Christ is 678 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,280 Speaker 1: not still imminent or unknowable. Good stuff. 679 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:06,600 Speaker 2: I love that any last book maybe or somebody goes 680 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,680 Speaker 2: all right, I want to understand these different views from mine, 681 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:14,520 Speaker 2: or maybe one that captures how you see this. Besides 682 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,560 Speaker 2: having students come join us at Tabisquol Theology, which would 683 00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 2: be awesome when we have classes on Daniel, you teach 684 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 2: on revelation, really nuance and work through this. But is 685 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 2: there a follow up book that you would recommend that 686 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,040 Speaker 2: you think does a good job of laying these out. 687 00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:34,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this is probably the it's the best book 688 00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,319 Speaker 1: on the subject, and probably the best book I've ever 689 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:43,800 Speaker 1: read of any kind of book that I edited myself 690 00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,719 Speaker 1: and contributed to it. Now there's a book, But I 691 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,400 Speaker 1: would recommend this book because this is the point of 692 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 1: the book. It's three views on the rapture. I'm the 693 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,279 Speaker 1: editor of the book, and I argue for the pre 694 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 1: wrath position, Doug MoU argues for the post tribulational position, 695 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 1: and Craig Blazing argues for the the pre tribulational position, 696 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 1: And so we interact with one another. We each make 697 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:18,359 Speaker 1: our own argument, and we also interact with the other 698 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,000 Speaker 1: person's arguments as well. And so it's a good it's 699 00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:25,160 Speaker 1: a good book to be able to get all the nuances. 700 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: I love that I pulled up. 701 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 2: It just says three views on the rapture, pre tribulation, 702 00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:34,040 Speaker 2: pre wrath or post tribulation. Craig Blazing, yourself, Alan Holberg, 703 00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:40,320 Speaker 2: and Doug MoU really respectable published New Testament scholars I 704 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,600 Speaker 2: haven't read this one, but given the glowing endorsement you 705 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,400 Speaker 2: gave it unbiased, I'm gonna have to put on my list. 706 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:47,760 Speaker 1: This is fun, folks. 707 00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,640 Speaker 2: Two things Number one, think about joining us at Topsical Theology. 708 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:52,879 Speaker 2: I've talked about this all the time. I love where 709 00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 2: we're at. There's so many exciting things happening in philosophy, 710 00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:01,600 Speaker 2: Paul Jetics, New Testament, marriage and family, online and in person. 711 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:03,839 Speaker 2: And let me know, this is a little different than 712 00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,560 Speaker 2: the typical show that I do. If it'd be helpful 713 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,319 Speaker 2: to bring on some other scholars from Talbot to kind 714 00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,560 Speaker 2: of do a deep dive on other theological issues that 715 00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:17,240 Speaker 2: intersect with apologetics, but our cultural and theological comment below, 716 00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,400 Speaker 2: let us know. And if there's a particular scholar in 717 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,360 Speaker 2: mind you want me to bring on, let me know. 718 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,600 Speaker 2: We'll try to do that as well. Thanks for watching 719 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,200 Speaker 2: and thanks for coming back. Thank you, hey friends. If 720 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 2: you enjoyed this show, please hit that fall button on 721 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,120 Speaker 2: your podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done 722 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,520 Speaker 2: this yet and it makes a huge difference in helping 723 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 2: us reach and equip more people and build community. And 724 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,479 Speaker 2: please consider leaving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks 725 00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,879 Speaker 2: for listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you 726 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:48,480 Speaker 2: by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we 727 00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,400 Speaker 2: have on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual information, 728 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:55,239 Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would 729 00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:58,120 Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively, live, teach, and 730 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:00,960 Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today, and we will see you 731 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:07,960 Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.