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Speaker 1: I was going to the Art of Teaching conference in Portland,

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Speaker 1: and I remember I went through an entire extra large

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Speaker 1: bottle of niquil in the week and I wasn't sick.

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Speaker 1: I remember like going, oh, I can't take this because

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Speaker 1: I have to get up early because I have to

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Speaker 1: drive to Portland. I have to be able to drive,

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Speaker 1: and then going I don't think that's normal. But I've

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Speaker 1: been doing really good. I've been doing really well. And

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Speaker 1: I ended up overdosing about a year later and went

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Speaker 1: and went to the psych word and when I came back,

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Speaker 1: it was forced. It was forced to sobriety came back

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Speaker 1: and my husband had thrown every single household medication we

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Speaker 1: had out, even kids, talent, just everything.

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Speaker 2: Life audio. Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of

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Speaker 2: a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel.

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Speaker 2: This is your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and

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Speaker 2: remarkable comebacks. In the end, this podcast is a place

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Speaker 2: for the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 2: But it's also a place of hope and healing. I

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Speaker 2: know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic,

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Speaker 2: not the other way around. Today, I've found sobriety after

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Speaker 2: decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I

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Speaker 2: found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview people

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Speaker 2: just like you and just like me, along with professionals

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Speaker 2: in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you

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Speaker 2: will find the piece that is available to you through

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Speaker 2: Christ on the other side of whatever you're going through

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Speaker 2: and whatever addiction that might be. Because let's face it, we're

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Speaker 2: all addicted to something so welcome. Let's get radically vulnerable

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Speaker 2: as we explore what it looks like to be on

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Speaker 2: this journey of messy sanctification. We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: You know, often when I'm doing a media interview, whether

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Speaker 2: on radio or TV or a podcast, inevitably I get

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Speaker 2: a question at the end that says, John, if you

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Speaker 2: could leave the audience with one thing, what would it be?

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Speaker 2: And the answer to me is easy, and so usually

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Speaker 2: I say this something along the lines of I want

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Speaker 2: people to understand that sanctification, that ongoing process of becoming

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Speaker 2: more like Jesus, is not an ear and it is

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Speaker 2: messy as well as that sanctification makes room for our

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Speaker 2: struggles to be not just the small, the little, the

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Speaker 2: acceptable sins. Hey, I don't cuss as much. Maybe I'm

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Speaker 2: I'm not as angry, or I'm more humble, but rather

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Speaker 2: makes room for the big sins, the big mess ups,

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Speaker 2: and especially in my story and in so many other

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Speaker 2: people's stories that we share here, it makes room for

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Speaker 2: the addictions. And I like to bring you stories of

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Speaker 2: people who fit that bill and try to show you

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Speaker 2: people just from like everyday life up to people who

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Speaker 2: you may know and recognize, who have struggled in that

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Speaker 2: journey of messy sanctification. Today, our guest is is the latter,

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Speaker 2: someone who you may know and may may recognize, and

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Speaker 2: her name is Brenna Blaine. Brenna burst onto the scene

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Speaker 2: probably about two years ago. She released a book in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty four titled Can I Say That? How Unsafe

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Speaker 2: Questions Lead Us to the Real God. Brenna is a

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Speaker 2: deep thinker. I just when I find myself watching her videos,

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Speaker 2: reading what she writes, I just I found myself so

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Speaker 2: often just saying Amen and agreeing with her and just

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Speaker 2: marveling at the wisdom that she conveys and the theological

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Speaker 2: conviction and theological what I would say accuracy that she displays,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm just so encouraged by her. And yet

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Speaker 2: she is not the addict who became a Christian. She

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Speaker 2: is the Christian who fell into addiction. And part of

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Speaker 2: her her story is talking about that. It's talking about

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Speaker 2: the mental health issues that she continues to battle and

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Speaker 2: struggle with and give over to the Lord and have

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Speaker 2: to give over to the Lord on a regular basis.

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Speaker 2: And so she talks about her addictions, she talks about

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Speaker 2: those struggles, and she also is very open about another struggle,

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Speaker 2: the struggle that she has had with same sex attraction,

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Speaker 2: something that she had from a very young age, and

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Speaker 2: so she talks about that, what does it look like

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Speaker 2: to take that captive, what does it look like to

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Speaker 2: be someone who who has that attraction and yet say,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm not going to live this out right,

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Speaker 2: and to bring that to Christ very regularly, and then

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Speaker 2: to even marry a man and have a marriage that

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Speaker 2: honors God in that way. And so we talked about

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Speaker 2: that as well. And so I'm just I'm excited for

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Speaker 2: you to hear from her as well as to learn

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Speaker 2: from her, because I think she is a voice crying

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Speaker 2: in the wilderness in a lot of ways. I've told

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Speaker 2: her that. I tell her that regularly, I'll read something

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Speaker 2: and I'll text her I'll say, burn out my goodness, like, wow,

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Speaker 2: it's just so good. I think you'll hear that. But

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Speaker 2: I also think what you'll hear in this interview is

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Speaker 2: you'll hear that she doesn't rush into things right, so

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Speaker 2: even her cadence, right, you will hear that it is thoughtful,

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Speaker 2: it is slower. And I didn't want to edit any

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Speaker 2: of those pauses out. I wanted you to come along

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Speaker 2: with her as she thinks through her responses and her

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Speaker 2: answers before we get to the interview, though, I would

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Speaker 2: be honored if you checked out Veritasrecovery dot org. Veritas

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Speaker 2: Recovery is the new nonprofit that I started that especially

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Speaker 2: looks to help Christians who struggle with doing the things

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Speaker 2: they don't want to do. And so we have resources.

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Speaker 2: We have a new resource that we just launched, and

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Speaker 2: that is devotional through the Bible app and so there's

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Speaker 2: scripture and so you can read along and it's going

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Speaker 2: to walk you through five days and four steps to

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Speaker 2: overcome addictions in your life. And as I like to say,

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Speaker 2: we're all addicted to something, so you can go to

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Speaker 2: Veritasrecovery dot org. You can see that in the resources section.

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Speaker 2: If you have the Bible app Powered by You version,

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Speaker 2: you can also search four steps and it will come

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Speaker 2: up there, so be sure to check that out. Listen,

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Speaker 2: I'm so again honored to have this conversation with Brenna Blaine.

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Speaker 2: Please sit back and enjoy it and learn from what

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Speaker 2: she has to say. Brenna, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: being on the podcast today. This has been something that

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Speaker 2: I've been really looking forward to you. You are someone

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Speaker 2: that I've been really looking forward to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, I think we were originally going to

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Speaker 2: talk about something else, and I said, can we just

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Speaker 2: record a podcast because I think I think we need to.

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Speaker 2: So thank you for being on the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I'm super excited I've gotten

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Speaker 1: to see, like we were talking about some of your interviews.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh man, it feels like a privilege to

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Speaker 1: get to talk with you.

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Speaker 2: Well, this the privilege truly is mine. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think I I'm trying to remember when I first So

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Speaker 2: you wrote a book. When did that book come out?

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Speaker 1: Came out August of twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: Four, Okay, and so I think that's when I first

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Speaker 2: started seeing you, right, I mean you do start doing

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Speaker 2: media stuff, and started following you, and it just became

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Speaker 2: really evident, especially over twenty over the course of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five, that you have a I just think, a

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Speaker 2: wisdom any humility that we need in culture today. And

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Speaker 2: I think you are wrestling in a good way with

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Speaker 2: what it looks like to be someone who has a

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Speaker 2: voice on social media and yet not be chasing followers

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Speaker 2: and whatnot. And so I just so appreciate what you're

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Speaker 2: doing and had targeted like we gotta talk to Brenna.

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Speaker 2: We've got to talk to Brenna. And so I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to be here. So thank you for just just I said,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being here, but thank you for your

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Speaker 2: obedience and your sensitivity to the spirit. What has it

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Speaker 2: been like since the book came out for you?

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Speaker 1: Honestly, it's one of those things where you're like nothing

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Speaker 1: has changed and everything has changed. I'm in a my

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Speaker 1: work life, I don't even know. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: to call it. You know, I went from being I

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Speaker 1: just turned thirty, and I keep saying like now that

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Speaker 1: I'm getting older whenever I say that, So, like, all

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Speaker 1: of my friends are older than me by like a

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Speaker 1: decent amount. Every time I say that, they're like that,

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Speaker 1: don't say that. And then last night I was thinking like, oh, this,

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Speaker 1: this has just been my first ten years of adulthood,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think anywhere along the way there was

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Speaker 1: any real I want to say, there are things I

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Speaker 1: did that were thought out right, Like, I think the

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Speaker 1: one and only thing was that I chose to pursue university.

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Speaker 1: And we knew we wanted to get pregnant with both

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Speaker 1: of our kids, but we didn't think we'd get pregnant

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Speaker 1: so fast with our first, and we knew we wanted

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Speaker 1: to get pregnant with our second. So there's two things

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Speaker 1: and then everything else. The book, the ministry, the mental

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Speaker 1: health diagnosis is the sobriety journey, the journey away from druggies.

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Speaker 1: Just all of all of those things were things that

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Speaker 1: the Lord just was. I don't know, John, Like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not a loss of words, because I really I just

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Speaker 1: go I wouldn't choose any of this, not because it's bad,

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Speaker 1: but just because it's not me. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: the interesting thing. When I spend time with my friends,

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Speaker 1: especially the ones that have grown up with me. They're like,

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Speaker 1: I know that the Lord is at work in your

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Speaker 1: life because that not this is not the road you

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Speaker 1: would have chosen. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, it is not.

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Speaker 1: And they're like, man, the Lord has really been gracious

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Speaker 1: to you because I make some unsmart decisions quite often,

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Speaker 1: and so just to go, wow, the Lord has never

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Speaker 1: let me falling off a cliff. It's a crazy thing.

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Speaker 2: And yet, I mean you talk about falling off a

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Speaker 2: cliff like it's not that your life has been roses

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Speaker 2: and butterflies. I mean, I think there's this I remember

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Speaker 2: this one post that I saw you do that I

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Speaker 2: think was really powerful, as you post this picture of

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Speaker 2: you in an emergency room basically having a mental health breakdown.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: After by the way, like you're following Jesus, you're faithful.

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Speaker 2: I think if i'm if i'm if I know this story, well,

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Speaker 2: like it's not like it's not just like a pre

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Speaker 2: you know a lot of people you know, this is

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Speaker 2: who I was before Jesus, And it's like, you know

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Speaker 2: that's part of my story, right, this is who this

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Speaker 2: is who I was after Jesus, right, because I can

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Speaker 2: give all the parts of myself I walled off from him.

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Speaker 2: So I would like for you, So, I would like

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Speaker 2: for you to kind of take us to the beginning

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Speaker 2: of your story, how it winds in with mental health,

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Speaker 2: how it winds in with sobriety, and even your book.

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Speaker 2: You know, so your book is titled can I say that?

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Speaker 2: And I would love to just for you to take

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Speaker 2: us to the beginning, to tell us Brunna's story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was born into your Christian family. I don't

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Speaker 1: think I say this often enough, but my mom has

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Speaker 1: had a lived out and committed, inconsistent faith that I

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Speaker 1: think it is rare, especially in these days. You know,

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Speaker 1: there's a part in the book that I write about

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Speaker 1: which just like every night I ever went into my parents' room,

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Speaker 1: my mom was in there reading her Bible or praying right.

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Speaker 1: And that's just a quiet faith that has had an

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Speaker 1: impact on me. But at the same time, I was

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Speaker 1: born in ninety five and so it was like the

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Speaker 1: evangelical world exploding. My dad was a pastor, and I

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Speaker 1: thought faith was here's a list of things you do

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Speaker 1: in a list of things you don't do, and if

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Speaker 1: you follow through with that, God is faithful to you,

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Speaker 1: and he protects you and loves you and cares for you.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a very elementary understanding of faith.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of kids would say the same thing,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's something you grow out of and

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Speaker 1: that you need to grow out of. But before I

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Speaker 1: had that opportunity, I ended up being molested just around

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Speaker 1: my ninth or just around my tenth birthday, but basically

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Speaker 1: a stranger. In the same season, my grandma had just

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Speaker 1: died from cancer, and I remember that was the first

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Speaker 1: time ever where it was like, oh, you pray for

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Speaker 1: someone to be healed and God heals them, and that

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Speaker 1: was not the case. And then my parents sat us

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Speaker 1: down and said, hey, your dad made some choices and

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Speaker 1: he can no longer live at home. So they got separated.

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Speaker 1: They ended up staying married, but they were separated during

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Speaker 1: that whole season. My parents didn't know I was abused.

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Speaker 1: When I was abused, I largely at the time thought

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Speaker 1: it was my fault, and I was just deeply anxious

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Speaker 1: about everything that was already going on at home and

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Speaker 1: thought I would muscle through it, which is you know,

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Speaker 1: anyone who knows anything about psychology and your brain when

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Speaker 1: you go through abuse, it's just it's not good. And

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Speaker 1: so I got I remember, I mean, I think I

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Speaker 1: had tendencies towards depression far before that. My dad would

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Speaker 1: still say to this day, when my mom was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with me, they had to go into the hospital a

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Speaker 1: few different times because I just want to move, and

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Speaker 1: he's like, that's I know, that's your personality. You're introverted,

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Speaker 1: still contemplative person but also like there's always been this

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Speaker 1: like this sadness for a lack of a better term,

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Speaker 1: and that just grew. It just it grew and grew

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Speaker 1: and grew, and with my you know, having been abused

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Speaker 1: by a man, I realized by the time I was fourteen.

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Speaker 1: I think I started, you know, recognizing my attractions towards

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Speaker 1: women when I was twelve, and then by the time

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Speaker 1: I was fourteen had the words to say, oh, I'm gay.

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Speaker 1: And so this doesn't work with my family's faith either.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just like, you know, processing in my head

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Speaker 1: as a kid going to a non denominational church that

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Speaker 1: is very seeker sensitive, and so the topics of the

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable topics of does God care about abuse? Does God

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Speaker 1: intervene or allow suffering. Those weren't subjects that were being

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Speaker 1: talked about. Those were theological conversations, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: people push back and say, well, those aren't appropriate conversations

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Speaker 1: for kids your age, so you know, even if they

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Speaker 1: were happening in big church like they want to be

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Speaker 1: happening then And I'm you know, now, a huge conversation

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Speaker 1: that I often have is the average age of abuse

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Speaker 1: is happening younger and younger and younger. The last time

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Speaker 1: I wrote an article on it when I was doing

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Speaker 1: the research, it was about age seven for girls, and

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing it's younger now. And you know, when I

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Speaker 1: look at church or echo, you have the ability to

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Speaker 1: be the voice of truth. Yes, so either do it

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Speaker 1: or recognize that when you don't tackle these difficult subjects,

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Speaker 1: then the secular world is the first voice that comes. Right.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was six, right, right, So I'm so sorry, John, Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry too, right. I mean, I'm kind of just

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Speaker 2: tearing up a little bit just because I know what

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Speaker 2: that's like. I know what it's like to be like,

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Speaker 2: is it my fault? Did I want it? Did I?

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Speaker 2: What did I? And then to not have an outlet,

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Speaker 2: you know, to make sense of that. Growing up in

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Speaker 2: a very charismatic Pentecostal evangelical church. Where to your point

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Speaker 2: when you're talking about your grandma, you know like, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm told if I just have enough faith and I

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Speaker 2: can have anything, Well, I just want peace, you know,

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Speaker 2: I can't have that. That's not coming right. So I

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Speaker 2: totally am tracking with all of that. So fourteen or

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Speaker 2: so twelve you have those you're starting to have that

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Speaker 2: same sex attraction. Fourteen you're putting words to it. And

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Speaker 2: what did that? Where did it go from there?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean at the time that would have been

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Speaker 1: two thousand and ten. And so the the statistics, if

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Speaker 1: you look back, it would say, hey, if you have

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Speaker 1: a teen who's growing up in a faith household and

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Speaker 1: they already struggle with mental health and they identify as LGBTQ,

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Speaker 1: the likelihood for them to commit suicide is so much higher.

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Speaker 1: And so I wasn't necessary to think about that. You know,

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Speaker 1: my parents. I'd grown up doing musical theater, and so

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Speaker 1: I had a lot of friends who identified that way

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Speaker 1: who were out. My parents did not have a problem

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Speaker 1: with them. My mom, it was never a thing of like,

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Speaker 1: oh if I say this, I might get kicked out.

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Speaker 1: It was never that. I think it was just the

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Speaker 1: tension right of going, well, if I say this, I'm

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Speaker 1: actually denying my parents' faith because I thought, like, I

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Speaker 1: can't get rid of these attractions, and if I'm attracted,

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Speaker 1: then I'm I'm damned to help. Basically was the only

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Speaker 1: story narrative I'd ever been told, and so I just

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Speaker 1: kind of kept it between me and a few friends,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't blog about it. It was very obvious on

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Speaker 1: a blog that I was gay, which I didn't think anyone.

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Speaker 1: It was like my friends who saw it, and some

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Speaker 1: of my church found it and kind of outed me,

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Speaker 1: and that's a whole different story. But basically all of

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Speaker 1: high school I kind of kept a secret. I was

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Speaker 1: still going to youth group at the same time, so

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Speaker 1: it was an interesting thing because I was being given

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Speaker 1: these lessons and small glimpses of the characteristics of Jesus.

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Speaker 1: The reason I was going there was because I found

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Speaker 1: a community that I just loved. It was a very

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm in the Portland area. It was a

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Speaker 1: very old Indie everyone had was in a band and

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Speaker 1: like everyone everyone looked queer. I think we can say

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Speaker 1: that now right, and so it was just like I

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Speaker 1: like this, I like this place. I like these people,

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Speaker 1: and my parents were happy that I had a community right,

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Speaker 1: and they were safe people, like they really were. And

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Speaker 1: at the same time I was in I was going

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Speaker 1: to college prep high school and was just doing terribly.

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Speaker 1: My grades were awful, and I had this whole plan

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Speaker 1: that I was going I was like, I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to go to school and get a degree in communications,

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Speaker 1: and because that's what every millennial girl was doing. And

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Speaker 1: it was like, I'll go to a secular school and

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Speaker 1: that's when I'll come out. That's when I'll leave the

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Speaker 1: faith that you know. It was just a better natural

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Speaker 1: transition that was kind of waiting for and living for

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Speaker 1: and expecting. The problem was when I graduated, my GPA

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Speaker 1: was so low I only qualified for Bible schools, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, that's not that's not going to happen.

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Speaker 1: But I thought about, you know, what are the things

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Speaker 1: that I love? What do I want to do. When

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Speaker 1: my parents asked me that question, They're like, I mean,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to go to school. There's other things

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Speaker 1: you can do. And they'd introduced the idea of taking

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Speaker 1: a gap year and doing missions for a bit of time,

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Speaker 1: and there's a mission space in Maui, Hawaii, which I thought, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I would love to surf and smoke weed and date

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Speaker 1: hot women and I can pretend to be a Christian

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Speaker 1: for six more months to get through that if it,

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Speaker 1: you know, gets me onto the island, and then I

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Speaker 1: can meet people and get a job and do all

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Speaker 1: the things. So I went, and I was not raised

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Speaker 1: charismatic John I when people said, like the Holy Spirit

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Speaker 1: was not I mean, I say, I went to nond

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Speaker 1: Noam Church. It was Baptist undercovers Nondonam. And so the

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Speaker 1: Trinity is God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the

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Speaker 1: Holy Bible. Right, Holy Spirit? Who what do you I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's just like a nice name for Jesus in your heart.

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Speaker 1: But it is like I didn't know. I did not

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Speaker 1: know that the Holy Spirit is alive and with us.

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Speaker 1: And so I walk into this place and it made

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Speaker 1: the mistake of watching. There is this kind of crazy

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Speaker 1: documentary that came out and I think it's called Jesus Camp. Yeah,

358
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Speaker 1: it was like ride this bizarre where they're like, let's

359
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Speaker 1: make it about Pentecostals who also really like Republican talk. Radio.

360
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Speaker 1: So it was like, I feel like it was like

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Speaker 1: Rush Limbaugh and then just super charismatic. And so my

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Speaker 1: friend and I watched it together like a month before

363
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Speaker 1: we both left for different y whims, and We're like,

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Speaker 1: that's so crazy. And she went to a pretty normal

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Speaker 1: use with the mission and I went to a charismatic one,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, I mean exploitive, Like holy crap, I

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Speaker 1: just walked into a cult like what I kind of

368
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Speaker 1: asked as a joke. I remember I said to someone,

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Speaker 1: have you ever gotten slain in the spirit? And they're like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, and start talking about this time, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, what the heck? So then I started going

372
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Speaker 1: around and asking everyone else, all the other leaders, have

373
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Speaker 1: you ever been slain in the spin? They're tired, and

374
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Speaker 1: I'm like, what is going on? What is this? So

375
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Speaker 1: I thought it was super weird. But at the same time,

376
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Speaker 1: within those first two weeks, I saw a girl get

377
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Speaker 1: healed and it was right in front of my eyes

378
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Speaker 1: and I couldn't. I could not make sense of it

379
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Speaker 1: outside of the supernatural. Yeah, like it just there's no

380
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Speaker 1: other way. And that freaked me out. And in that

381
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Speaker 1: moment when all this is going on, I just went, Okay, God,

382
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Speaker 1: if you're real, I surrender to you. I don't know

383
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Speaker 1: who you are. I don't know what that means. I

384
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Speaker 1: don't know what life you have planned for. I don't

385
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Speaker 1: know if you want me to be single for the

386
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Speaker 1: rest of my life. I don't know, like I just

387
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know anything. But if you

388
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Speaker 1: are real, I will give you my life. And then

389
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Speaker 1: I read the New Testament over the next six months

390
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Speaker 1: and just fell madly in love with the person of

391
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Speaker 1: Jesus that I saw for the first time for myself

392
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Speaker 1: within the pages of the New Testament, and then going, oh,

393
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Speaker 1: my gosh, and his spirit is alive and with us

394
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Speaker 1: and in us. That's crazy, Like the yes, the fact

395
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Speaker 1: that God is like life with God is exciting. I

396
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Speaker 1: just never I just I didn't. It was just a crazy,

397
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Speaker 1: crazy thing. And so because of that, obviously my landscape

398
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Speaker 1: of friends in social situations like when I came home,

399
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Speaker 1: it was pretty quick that most of my friends, because

400
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Speaker 1: of the same age and everything, they were on their

401
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: way out of Christianity. Yeah, which is what it.

402
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: Was, really the beginning of the kind of really construction movement.

403
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Speaker 1: Yes, it was. We were all my grade was the

404
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,719
Speaker 1: tail end of purity culture. Our older siblings had all

405
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 1: read I just dating goodbye, like all the things, and

406
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: so I just came home and I didn't really know

407
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: what to do besides like, I'm gonna go serve at

408
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Speaker 1: a church. I'm young, I have all the time in

409
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,719
Speaker 1: the world, and this is what I want to do.

410
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: I don't really want to be in ministry because my

411
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: dad was in ministry, and I also want to make money.

412
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Speaker 1: So God, I'm not gonna kick it down any doors,

413
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Speaker 1: but I'll just but if you open a door and

414
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: you nudge me, I'll be obedient. So came home starting

415
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Speaker 1: in a small group. The youth worship pastor was on

416
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Speaker 1: his way out, super kind guy known for a bit.

417
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Speaker 1: He's like, i'll train you if you want to do this,

418
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: because I had my job during those six months was

419
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: leading worship, and so I was like, okay, I'll do that.

420
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Speaker 1: While I was doing that, I got asked to preach

421
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: one one Wednesday night, and I just remember feeling for

422
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: the first time like, oh, when people say they're passionate

423
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: about something, this is what they mean. Yeah. It was

424
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: just crazy. It was crazy to look at the group

425
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: I had grown up in that I was so lukewarm,

426
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: not even lukewarm, just not a believer and then have

427
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: just this like deep desire to get through to those

428
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: people in that room. And at the same time, like

429
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: I had never I was a pretty straight laced kid.

430
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 1: Obviously really struggled with suicide and depression. But I was

431
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: not at parties drinking. I was not. My dad gave

432
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: me my first beer when I was sixty, and I

433
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 1: remember I was like, this tastes like wet bread. I

434
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: don't like this. I don't want to do this. My

435
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: parents would let me go to parties where they was

436
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: drinking because they just like knew, yeah, like she's either

437
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: going to tell the truth or like, I just don't

438
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: think she likes it. And so that was kind of

439
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: what I'd grown up in. And so now I was.

440
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: I was back home, in love with Jesus doing ministry

441
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: about to start. I mean ministry basically slowly took over.

442
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: I was working as a barista, and I worked less

443
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 1: and less hours there to work more and more hours

444
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: doing vocational ministry. And where where are you with the

445
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: same sex attraction at this point?

446
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this.

447
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I it was not public, but I had

448
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: in high school. Towards the end of high school, I'd

449
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: heard a guy preach a sermon and the question of

450
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: the night was is being gay saying? And I'm like, oh,

451
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: we already know this, but he talked about and I

452
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: was like, why is he speaking He's not gay, and

453
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 1: he was like, I thought, when I married my wife,

454
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: my attraction to every other woman in this world will

455
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: just leave. And that was not the case. And Christians

456
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: are so good at actualizing the scripture that says, I

457
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: think it's in one of the Corinthians like, you will

458
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: not be tempted beyond but beyond what you can bear.

459
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: But when you are tempted, God will also provide a

460
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 1: way out so that you can endure it.

461
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: And this.

462
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 1: Really just like synthesizing that this is the work that

463
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit does when you are weak, when you

464
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: cannot pull yourself up. This is where the Holy Spirit

465
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: comes in and does his work. And so his conclusion

466
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: was basically, man, if you are attracted to the same sex,

467
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: that does not damn you to hell, but you still

468
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: have an option to be faithful to Jesus because Jesus

469
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 1: asks us for our sexuality. He asks us to live

470
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: a holy life. And there's a whole, beautiful and compelling

471
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: list within its first Corinthians six nine through eleven, right

472
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:34,719
Speaker 1: where it's going, Paul's basically just saying the contents on

473
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: the outside of you reveals your heart. And so if

474
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: you say you love Jesus, but you're actually doing all

475
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: these things where it's you're not loving your neighbor, you're

476
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: not loving your body, you're not loving God's creation, then

477
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: you don't get eternity with God because your heart's revealing.

478
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: You don't want eternity with God because you're not believing

479
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: in that. And and for me it was like that

480
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: was just an interesting thing. But the first time that

481
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: I heard it, it was like, oh, okay, so I guess

482
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: you can be gay and not have to be you

483
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: don't have I think that's maybe we could maybe agree.

484
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: There's more of a charismatic mindset of deliverance ministry from temptation, right.

485
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: And I think that was the first time that I

486
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: was like, oh, even if this temptation doesn't go away,

487
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: I could be faithful to God, right if I ever

488
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: ended up wanting to be faithful to God. Right. And

489
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: so when the whole y wham thing happened. That was

490
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: just it was like that was easy. And I say

491
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: it was easy, then I mean at twenty, right, like,

492
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: it's not. I live a very very different life than

493
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: most celibate gay Christians. And that's something that I can't

494
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: speak to because I did end up getting married and

495
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: that was not I. I fell in love with my

496
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,840
Speaker 1: friend Austin and was like, lord, I have to be

497
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: attracted to this man, Like, I'm not going to marry

498
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: someone that I'm not attracted to. Because that's the other thing.

499
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: If you look at kind of the Exodus ministry thing,

500
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,479
Speaker 1: a lot they were telling people to get married, and

501
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: it's like, man, that's a that's a bad stewardship to

502
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: marry someone you're not attracted to. That's gonna cause issues

503
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: later in life. So I wouldn't necessarily suggest that, and

504
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I just I surrendered that and

505
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: then you know, within a few years, I was not

506
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't living single and I wasn't living celibate for

507
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 1: a long time. Right, So I guess that's I have

508
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: to say for that, but.

509
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: I am can I just can I just say before

510
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: you move on, I think people listening to this is like,

511
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 2: you know, it's this weird dichotomy of like in some senses,

512
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: has the Lord removed the desire or the obsession as

513
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: they call it in like AA circles like for me

514
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: to drink, Yes, but yet there are still like it's

515
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: not miraculously gone, right, Like it's not like I never think, like, man,

516
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 2: it would be great, you know, to have a drink

517
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 2: right now, or I would love to do that, or

518
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: or or maybe I could just have one like or

519
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Like on one hand, it's

520
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: like I don't obsess about it, right, But on the

521
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 2: other hand, like it's still there, right, And you know,

522
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: I think perhaps that's a little bit like what you're

523
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: saying is like it's not like it's I don't think

524
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: you're obsessing over it, and yet it maybe it's still

525
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: there and you're just like I am choosing the Lord

526
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 2: is me attraction to this man? I am choosing like

527
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: the I know this is the whole, this is the

528
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: way to live, and I'm not going to chase after that.

529
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: I'm not going to I'm not going to chase after

530
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 2: that other stuff. I mean, so I think there's a

531
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 2: comparison at least in my mind to where I am

532
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 2: with alcohol with where are you with that? Is that fair?

533
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: That's good? Yeah? I mean I would definitely say, you know,

534
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable. There are seasons that and you would

535
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: agree with this right where there's seasons where you're like,

536
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: oh man, this temptation is so much. But yeah, I

537
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 1: think it's it's just uh, I don't know. I would

538
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: say it's the daily knowing, the daily knowing interesting of yeah,

539
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: Christ and his spirit and just going here's another thing

540
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: I want to do that I'm not supposed to do.

541
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's plenty of those. Yeah, it's not just alcohol

542
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: for me, right, I mean before alcoholic was porn before,

543
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's like and that's when

544
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: my wife, when I hit my rock bottom, she's like,

545
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: I don't care if you never drink again. That's not

546
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: what I want because you can never drink again, and

547
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 2: it's you're just going to replace it with something else

548
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: until you get to the root, like until you let

549
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 2: Jesus into all those parts of you, until you deal

550
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: with the trauma from when you were six, until you

551
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 2: like really root that out. What do I care if

552
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: you drink or not? If you're just gonna go do

553
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: something else, you know, And I'm like, dang, okay, you know,

554
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: mm hmm, all right.

555
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: So.

556
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: You where does where does where does this stuff come in?

557
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: Then?

558
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 2: Where you kind of the mental health you know, because

559
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: you might say, okay, Brano, like you have you're chasing

560
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: after Jesus, like you've you're you're doing vocational ministry, like

561
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 2: life is supposed to be great, then like you shouldn't struggle.

562
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 2: Where does the struggle really either re enter or or

563
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: or come not for not for, for lack of a

564
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: better term, resurface maybe yeah.

565
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. So when I got back from where I am,

566
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: when I would tell people my testimony, I always talked

567
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: about mental health as if it was a past thing,

568
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 1: and I don't know that I was actively telling people

569
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: like and I've been healed from that, because it wasn't

570
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: really something that I that people prayed for necessarily well

571
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: I was gone. Nor did I feel like that was

572
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 1: an active thing that happened. It was just like, oh,

573
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: I struggled with it, and now I don't because I didn't.

574
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard to struggle with mental health when

575
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: you're nineteen years old and living in Hawaii, right, like,

576
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can. But it was a good it

577
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: was a good time. And then I came home and

578
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: again I was twenty and I was working as a barista,

579
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: and I was like with my friends all the time,

580
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: it was just it was just an easy life, and

581
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: so I would just talk about, Yeah, I used to

582
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: I used to be depressed. I used to want to

583
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: kill myself. I don't. I don't have that anymore. But

584
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: I remember I went to visit some of my friends

585
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: from why Wham in Canada, and there you can drink

586
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 1: at eighteen, and so they're like, oh my gosh, you've

587
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: never and it was not anywhere near like we're gonna

588
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: take you out. Things aren't crazy. It was just like, oh,

589
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: you've never drank before. You should get a glass of

590
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: wine when we got for dinner, like try it. And

591
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: that's when I discovered that so much of a lightweight.

592
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: I had a glass of wine and maybe something else,

593
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: maybe like half a cider. And I come back and

594
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: remember I couldn't get my shoes off, like I was like,

595
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: and I remember my friend's mom saying that that's why

596
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 1: they don't let Americans drink so young. I like could not.

597
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: It was the weirdest saying. But I was just like,

598
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: I hate the taste of alcohol, but I love how

599
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: I feel. And I remember we're going to sleep that night,

600
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: and I said to my friends, I was like, this

601
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 1: is great. Do you guys just drink like something every

602
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: night to go to bed? And I remember my friend saying, Brenda,

603
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 1: that's a red flag wow, right, like the very first

604
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: time I ever drank, and her just saying, don't get

605
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: any ideas of like using this as a dependency. And

606
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,359
Speaker 1: I was just like, I don't know. I just kind

607
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: of shrugged it off because I was like, well, I'm

608
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: not I can't drink at home, and I'm going home

609
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: in like two days. So I went back home and

610
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: then I turned twenty one, and it was that really

611
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: weird thing right where I remember, like everyone I still

612
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: to this day just love and a door was at

613
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: my twenty first birthday, and it was like this weird

614
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, it was a really weird Looking back

615
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 1: on it, I think it's weird that there was this

616
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: like really kind of celebratory thing without any like conversations

617
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: of caution. And I'm sure that maybe if anyone had

618
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 1: thought about it, it was like I they probably didn't

619
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: want to come across as legalistic. Yeah, but I just

620
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: think to this day, I'm like, oh, that's interesting that

621
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: the people who knew, especially my struggle with mental health,

622
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: though there was kind of no precursor conversations, so like, hey,

623
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: you might be tempted to do this. It's probably not

624
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: a good idea. But I drank, and again, super lightweight.

625
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: I was like, I remember my dad laughing at me

626
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 1: because I was like, couldn't. I was just like, oh,

627
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: I feel I can't. I don't know, and and was

628
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: like embarrassed and made the choice right then there because

629
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: I was working at a church with a church with students.

630
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna drink in state. Like if I go

631
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 1: on vacation, I'll drink then, but I don't want to

632
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: ever drink because I'm such a lightweight and like run

633
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: into someone that would be really embarrassing. I don't like

634
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: what that says about me, what I believe. I just

635
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 1: am not into it. Well lo and behold John, I

636
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: was gone like every month that year, like I was.

637
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: I was with my friends in why Am were getting married,

638
00:40:58,280 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 1: so I was going off state to go to their wedding.

639
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: I was going back to Hawaii to visit my friends.

640
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: I was in Europe, I think twice. Like I was

641
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: just you know, because you when you're five years old

642
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: in a barista, You're like, I can spend my money

643
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: on fun things because I don't have any other responsibilities.

644
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 1: And I found myself it was that it was that soothing,

645
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: like that numbing yes, right, like that no one that

646
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: I didn't have words for and couldn't really explain. But

647
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: all I knew was that I hated the taste of alcohol,

648
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 1: and so I would skip lunch and drink first before

649
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: I drink before i'd eat dinner, so that I could

650
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: get drunk yep, and then like kind of eat and

651
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: fall asleep and just loved that feeling. It was like

652
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: the first time I when I went to the hospital

653
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 1: to have my first kid and they gave me fentanyl,

654
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: and I looked at my husband and I was like,

655
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: I feel like I just drank four glasses of wine.

656
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 1: This is the greatest thing ever. And he was like, hmm,

657
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:18,839
Speaker 1: that's not good. Yum. And again it was weird. It

658
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: was one of those weird things where it was like

659
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: I think because I was doing it kind of in secret,

660
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 1: like I was obviously drunk in front of my friends

661
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: who I was traveling with, was kind of doing it

662
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: in secret. No one was really confronting me about it,

663
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 1: and I wasn't necessarily making decisions while I was drunk

664
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: that were really life altering. I just I was kind

665
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: of in that space where I was like, I know

666
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,439
Speaker 1: I'm not supposed to do this, but I don't know why.

667
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: Like I know it says a drunkenness is bad, yeah,

668
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: like giving yourself over to that in the Bible, and

669
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 1: I believe Jesus, I believe this, but I know I

670
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: don't understand why, because I feel like this is helping

671
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,479
Speaker 1: and I and I'm doing it in a non harmful way.

672
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 1: So that was really really weird. But I had another

673
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: really good close friend in ministry and we had gone

674
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: on one trip together and she saw she got to

675
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: see how much I would drink, and I think she

676
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: was the first and kind of only person that was

677
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: like this, this is concerning b and you know, this

678
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 1: is maybe not great for your mental health. And at

679
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: the time I had not yet been diagnosed with bipolar disorder,

680
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 1: and so I had drank for a proximate nine months

681
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: after I turned twenty one and was just I don't know,

682
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: I was just it was an interesting for to have

683
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 1: one person my age say this is not good. This

684
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: is not good, and it's not gonna be good for you.

685
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,919
Speaker 1: This is for me to go, You're right, okay, let's quit.

686
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna quit. I'm gonna I'm not

687
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: gonna do it. And I don't know what if I'm

688
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 1: just a super competitive person, which with myself, which in

689
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: other things have have been terrible. But I quit and

690
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 1: I never picked up alcol ever again. And it was

691
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 1: insane because that was the last time I drank, was

692
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: like in August and I got put on a medication

693
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: that I couldn't drink with maybe like two months later,

694
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: and then it was January when I got diagnosed as bipolar.

695
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of things where I mean,

696
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: the first two and a half or three years was

697
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: me going, oh my gosh, I could be surviving bipolar

698
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: disorder so much better if I could just have a

699
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: drink mhm right. Like it was just like I was like,

700
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: it's so I could be falling asleep instead of sobbing

701
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: all night wishing I was, you know, not here and

702
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: then there's a ton of frustration in that. And again,

703
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: it's really weird to look back because it was maybe

704
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: a few years after that I started using I quit

705
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: my mental health medications and was just taking cough medicine

706
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: and stimulants all day, self medicating, and that lasted for

707
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: about two years. And so I've had two different kind

708
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: of dependency issues that I think when you've had a

709
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: dependency issue, you just you know when it's like, yeah,

710
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: when it's frustrating, right when I'm going like, oh, those

711
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 1: two years that I was on doing household drugs, that

712
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 1: I was the best, you know, most chill happy parent

713
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: in my like in mothering, and there's like those those

714
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 1: little things and I was like I was so extroverted.

715
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: I'm not an extrovert, and people really loved that, and

716
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 1: life felt so easy, and so there's those things that

717
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 1: you hold on to that you're like, oh, but this

718
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: made me this way, And I think that's part of

719
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that's one thing that Satan

720
00:46:53,560 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 1: uses quite often when he's trying to just trying to

721
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: pull you back, is like don't you remember, yeah, but

722
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: there's like the law I really say, yes, the lie

723
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 1: in it. That's like when I'm going back and seeking

724
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,879
Speaker 1: like I was a better mom when I was doing that,

725
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: and then I have to stop and go what kid

726
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 1: grows up and finds out their parents were on tracks

727
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: and we're like, yeah, my mom was better, Like yeah,

728
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, there's those things.

729
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 2: And so can I ask a thel in a sense

730
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 2: that I think that leads me to a theological question hmmm,

731
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: which you are such a deep thinker that I think

732
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,959
Speaker 2: I want to ask you this, what do you think

733
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: it is? Because you know, as I've written this book,

734
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: as I've turned this now into a nonprofit and a

735
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 2: ministry that is especially not exclusively, but especially for Christians

736
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 2: who struggle with whether you want to call it addictions

737
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 2: or the Roman seven doing what I don't want to do,

738
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: misordered loves. As Augustine would say, there's a lot of

739
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 2: us out there who like you and like me. I

740
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: have the same mental conversations that said, Okay, like I

741
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 2: know Jesus, I know the or I know the Bible

742
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: says not to get drunk, right, But then I go

743
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: down this rabbit hole like, well what is drunk right?

744
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 2: Like what is it's what? Because because they tied, you know,

745
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 2: point oh eight to funding for highway bills, which is

746
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: kind of like the history of why we we ended

747
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 2: on point oh eight as the legal limit for being drunk.

748
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:39,360
Speaker 2: It's like, you know it used to be one and

749
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: now you know and I'm like, okay, well what's that? Like?

750
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 2: I okay, but I know Jesus says this. Why do

751
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: you think is it is in an absence of teaching

752
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 2: and preaching about conviction of the Holy Spirit? Like why

753
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 2: do why have we gone there? And why do so

754
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 2: many of us go there? We're like, I know the

755
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,919
Speaker 2: Bible says this, butt in that, but when it comes

756
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 2: to any sort of like alcohol, for you, the cough medicine,

757
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 2: I think. You know, you're in an area of Portland

758
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 2: and I think it's becoming even greater like weed. Like

759
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 2: we know the Bible says this about drunkenness and giving

760
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 2: ourselves over and that, but we yet we all find

761
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 2: I think ways to justify it. How and why do

762
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 2: you think that is?

763
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: Well? I think there are many different reasons, but the

764
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 1: one that I would say, I'm I've seen the most

765
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: maybe not the most evidence, but the area that I

766
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: hang out the most and would be that the church

767
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: is not equipped to let people talk about the butt

768
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:55,439
Speaker 1: or process the butt right, like we're going our church

769
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,919
Speaker 1: is for so long, especially in evangelical Christianity, has said,

770
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 1: in order for you to look like a person who

771
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: has good faith, you must be struggleless or temptationless. And

772
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: so we're telling Christians who know Jesus, who have experienced Jesus,

773
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 1: your struggle needs to be worked out alone. And I

774
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 1: don't like, I'm just going to like the power of

775
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 1: saying things out loud. The last time I was in

776
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,720
Speaker 1: the psych word, a psychologist came in and was doing

777
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 1: like a lecture and it was on the power of

778
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: speaking things out loud, which I was like, this is

779
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: very interesting as someone who is now, you know, a contemplative,

780
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: charismatic right love praying out loud. But she's talking about

781
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: how she's like, Okay, we put you know, a group

782
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: of people in a place watching a horror movie and

783
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,280
Speaker 1: they could talk about what they were feeling experiencing inside.

784
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: And then we put another group of people they watched

785
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: the same movie, but they weren't allowed to talk out loud,

786
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: and how the fear and emotions and the people who

787
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 1: could not speak out loud grew by three times, whereas

788
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: the people who could speak about it, they came back

789
00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: to down to like a base level of normalcy. And

790
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:35,479
Speaker 1: I remember the five days leading up to going into

791
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: the psych word. I I didn't I put my headphones

792
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: on and I listened to sad music every single day,

793
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: like I wasn't talking to anyone, It wasn't saying anything.

794
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: And there's science agrees that the Lord made us to

795
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: be in community and to process with people. And so

796
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: I think so many people feel shame maybe by past

797
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: church experiences or church cultures or faith cultures, for asking

798
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: for help with certain things. I mean, we've all seen

799
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 1: the pastor who said, man, I have a porn addiction.

800
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: I need help, and instead of helping them, the church

801
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,439
Speaker 1: just you know how, I'm about to dry, right, We've

802
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:27,919
Speaker 1: all seen that. And and so people, especially I think

803
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: millennial and up are have a merited fear of being

804
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: vulnerable and honest within their faith communities. Yes, and when

805
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:46,480
Speaker 1: you don't do that, not only are you stuck with

806
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: your own thoughts, but you also have no one to

807
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: challenge you on them, you know, Like for me, it

808
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 1: was just my it was my one friend, saying hey,

809
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: this isn't this isn't right. This is concerning for me

810
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: to go, oh shoot, yeah, like I want to be

811
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,279
Speaker 1: done with this. I want to be done with this.

812
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:14,360
Speaker 1: It's so important that that continues to change, that the

813
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,360
Speaker 1: culture of our churches continue to change that people. And

814
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 1: I think it has to start with the pulpit. It

815
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: has to start with our own leaders and pastors acknowledging

816
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: and sharing their stories of struggling temptation. Yes, and then

817
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: for our community groups and Bible studies and whatever to

818
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: be a place that says not only like you can

819
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: confess if you need to confess, but like, hey, let's

820
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: have a culture of confession and honesty and vulnerability.

821
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:49,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

822
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: So that because it's like, man, I think about you know,

823
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 1: for me, one of the most influential people in my

824
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: life is my mentor. She's been walking with me since

825
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 1: I was twelve. She knows so much about me. He

826
00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: knows me so well. And when I was growing up,

827
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: there was so much shame. There's so many things I

828
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 1: want to hide from her and tell her to remember

829
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:09,959
Speaker 1: the first time I ever confessed to her and how

830
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 1: that interaction went, and it was like this light bulb

831
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: clicked in me that I was like, I don't think

832
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,720
Speaker 1: there's anything I could say that would freak her out,

833
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: like truly, And so now it's just this. Now we

834
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 1: have this relationship where I'm like, man, this season of

835
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: same sex attraction is so much harder than you know whatever,

836
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: and being able to say that without fear of judgment

837
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 1: or like spiritual retaliation of saying like you know, a

838
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: fear of my questioning my vocational ministry or whatever. Like

839
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 1: there's just there's an understanding that I love this. I

840
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: have a group of overseers who oversee my ministry, their

841
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: pastors and elders. And one of the pastors that I

842
00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: meet with, his kind of saying is like, you confess

843
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,040
Speaker 1: and seek help, like we're always going to run that

844
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: road with you. Like getting caught is different, and that's

845
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: when there's questions of man no longer being above reproach.

846
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 1: But he's like, if you're confessing and seeking help, that's

847
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: a sign of a repentant heart, and that's something that

848
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 1: we've gotten wrong. I think in the church where we're going, oh,

849
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: if you're seeking help, then you're already wrong. It's like, no, no,

850
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: that's not it. That's you know, that's right, Like that's

851
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 1: the discernment of the Holy Spirit that like, oh my gosh,

852
00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore. I need help, I need

853
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: to tell someone. And so I think those things should

854
00:55:55,600 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 1: be celebrated and just sewing courage, and again they have

855
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 1: to start out of the mouths of our leaders and pastors.

856
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 2: Ay man one hundred percent. I've was talking to a

857
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: friend of mine who's an elder at a church locally,

858
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 2: and I was talking about him about the ministry and

859
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 2: you know, my heart, especially for Christians who find themselves

860
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 2: in these positions. And he said, you know, we had

861
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 2: an elder, a fellow elder come to us and he said,

862
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 2: you know, he confessed, you know, drinking problem, porn and

863
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 2: he's like, you know, we obviously he's like, we asked him.

864
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:41,879
Speaker 2: You know, he resigned from the elder board, but our

865
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 2: goal was always restoration. And he said, in fact, this year,

866
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: we're now bringing him back on to the elder board.

867
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 2: And I was like, oh my gosh, thank you, thank you. Right,

868
00:56:54,920 --> 00:56:57,040
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of debate, well, you know, and

869
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 2: especially in maybe some of these theobro type circles, like

870
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 2: well you're disqualified forever now we have to uphold the

871
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 2: integrity of that, and there's a debate there, but I

872
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 2: just I just felt like in my spirit, I was like,

873
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 2: that's that's it right there, Like that's that's the goal.

874
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 2: Because now do you know that that fellow elder, like

875
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:22,919
Speaker 2: the people in that church, now they have seen an

876
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 2: example of confession and what happens. Because one of the

877
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 2: biggest things that I see in the work that I'm

878
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 2: doing is that people do not confess because they know

879
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 2: how they're not. They're not they're not concerned about what

880
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 2: the world will do to them. They're concerned about what

881
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 2: fellow Christians are going to do to them, and they crucify,

882
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 2: crucify him type mentality that exists. And and so I love,

883
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: I love what you're saying, Like if we can have

884
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: leaders that weekend, and I'm gonna I'm hopefully they're gonna

885
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 2: allow me to tell this story as part of the

886
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 2: Minute Street because I think it is such a great example.

887
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: You know, I am curious when you you know, you

888
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,760
Speaker 2: talked about you talked about that person kind of that

889
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 2: that friend of yours calling you out an alcohol How

890
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 2: did it lead to then? Was it just you're like well,

891
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 2: I'm not drinking, so then the cough medicine and the

892
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: stimulants are okay. Was it a lapse? Like what what

893
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 2: kind of then led you down that road? We'll be

894
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 2: right back after this.

895
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's interesting. I have always I was a

896
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,959
Speaker 1: it was on antibiotics, like my entire life, like from

897
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 1: one years old until like eighteen, we're sick all the time.

898
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 1: But I have really adverse reactions to medication. I remember

899
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: I was in high school. Once my mom packed me

900
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: student fed because I was sick but I couldn't miss school,

901
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: and I accidentally took it's you know, two every four

902
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,439
Speaker 1: four to six hours, and I thought it was four

903
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,919
Speaker 1: every two hours, And so I had gone on eight

904
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: and I was sitting in the back and we're watching

905
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: a movie about Mayan culture, and I was like sobbing

906
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 1: in the back. She was like so high, she's crazy.

907
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: So my mom was like how could I mean, eight

908
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:24,959
Speaker 1: is a lot, but like, how could that happen so fast?

909
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: And how was that so disorienting? And figured out that

910
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: just I can't take as much as what normal people

911
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: can take. And I'd gotten sick and took suit a

912
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,120
Speaker 1: fed and I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot this

913
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: is kind of nice and just kind of had the

914
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: It's one of those things where it's like your brain

915
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: tricks like it really was a while before I realized

916
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: I had a problem, because it was like the days

917
00:59:57,200 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 1: I didn't take it, I didn't feel good, but it

918
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 1: wasn't the I was sick. Right. I was like, Oh,

919
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 1: there's like a dependence now because your brain really likes this. Yeah,

920
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: but I had Actually I was going to this is

921
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 1: I think this is twenty twenty two, and I would stop.

922
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: I wouldn't use anything when I was pregnant, and then

923
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 1: after i'd have kids, I'd get sick so fast. So

924
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: I was going to the Art of Teaching conference in Portland,

925
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: and I remember I went through an entire, like extra

926
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 1: large bottle of niquil in the week and I wasn't sick.

927
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: And I remember like going, oh, I can't take this

928
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 1: because I have to get up early because I have

929
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 1: to drive to Portland. I have to be able to drive,

930
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 1: and then going oh, hmmm, I don't think that's normal.

931
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 1: M M. I don't think that's normal. But I've been

932
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:14,480
Speaker 1: doing really good. I've been doing really well and continued

933
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: doing that really up until I went. I ended up

934
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: overdosing about a year later and went and went to

935
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: the psych word and when I came back, it was forced.

936
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: It was forced. Sobriety came back, and my husband had

937
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: thrown every single household medication we had out, even kids,

938
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: tient all everything. And yeah, I mean, the the I

939
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 1: think we can. I mean that's a hard that's a

940
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: hard thing that I also struggle with all the time too,

941
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 1: is to be very vulnerable. I think some some days

942
01:02:00,080 --> 01:02:03,560
Speaker 1: I think everyone can relate to this. I was telling

943
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: my husband yesterday, I was like, oh, I sometimes I

944
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 1: would like to quit ministry because I'm really tired of

945
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 1: being a buve approach, because like I there's people on

946
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 1: the internet who need to just be told that they're wrong,

947
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: and I am really tired of trying to communicate kind

948
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: of like I just don't I and I and I

949
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: say that as if I do that all the time,

950
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: as if I'm always kind of that. It's definitely not

951
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: the case. But there's like the mindset Back then, I

952
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 1: was speaking, but I was I wasn't speaking a lot.

953
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,640
Speaker 1: I think it was maybe like maybe four times a year,

954
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 1: and it was like I wasn't I didn't have a title.

955
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: I didn't I wasn't necessarily like I wasn't striving for

956
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 1: anything or I was. I was a stay at home mom.

957
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: And so the questions now that i'm that I use

958
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: to measure like because I believe that the position I'm in,

959
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: I have to keep myself on a short lease leash

960
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:25,640
Speaker 1: in order to one just uphold the sanctity of the

961
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: calling of preaching the word of God, right like, I just,

962
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: I've seen too many times where it's like, well, as

963
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 1: long as you don't have an affair and you're not drunk,

964
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 1: and you're not stealing money, like you can be a

965
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: jerk and we'll pass it off as you being assertive,

966
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 1: right Like I'm like, I don't want to do that.

967
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 1: And at the same time, there's also other things that

968
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: I am bent towards, like use that I'm like, I

969
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 1: have to, and that's why I have an elderboard and

970
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: that's why I meet with them monthly, and that's why

971
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: they are actually people who am in relationship with so

972
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: they can go, you are not parenting, well right now,

973
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 1: we need to talk about it, right like, I just

974
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting to look back and think through again how

975
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: we I don't want to say trick ourselves. Maybe trick ourselves,

976
01:04:29,000 --> 01:04:38,919
Speaker 1: but also just pacify our use against are ethics or convictions.

977
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 2: And I'm glad. I'm glad you say that, right, Like,

978
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 2: I'm glad. It's not an easy answer, right, because I

979
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,080
Speaker 2: think that so many in the church look at people

980
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 2: like us and say, you had to have been justifying

981
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 2: it overtly this way, and it was this conscious decision.

982
01:04:58,240 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 2: And yes, I'm not absolving us from SMA ability, like

983
01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 2: there's decisions that were that were made. But it's like

984
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 2: one of the chapters in my book is you know,

985
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 2: called a slow fade, right, Like it's just little things, right,

986
01:05:10,600 --> 01:05:12,560
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden you wake up and

987
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:15,560
Speaker 2: you're in the psych word, having odeed, and you're like, well,

988
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 2: I didn't say like specifically like okay, I'm just gonna

989
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 2: do this and and and whatnot? Right, It's like and

990
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 2: so I think I hope that there's people listening to

991
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 2: this where you like you have gotten to the point

992
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 2: where maybe you're like, how did I get here?

993
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: Right?

994
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 2: And I think the devil will then try to keep

995
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 2: shame on you, right and say like, oh, look at this, right,

996
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:41,919
Speaker 2: and it's like, I mean, I just don't think it's

997
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 2: as simple as you woke up one day and said,

998
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 2: I don't believe the Bible is true or I'm just

999
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 2: gonna try to get away with this or or whatnot,

1000
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 2: Like the devil is sneaky that way, like the enemy.

1001
01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 2: I you know, talk with Joel Mudumale, our mutual friend,

1002
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 2: about spiritual warfare, and I think what is so fascinating

1003
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,240
Speaker 2: is when I asked him about addiction and spiritual warfare,

1004
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 2: He's like, I just He's like, is it possible that

1005
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 2: some people are oppressed? Like yes, but principalities and dark

1006
01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:14,480
Speaker 2: powers use systems and and and you know, make it

1007
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 2: look enticing, and you know, lie to you in so

1008
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 2: many ways through culture and what that that it's a

1009
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,960
Speaker 2: lot easier for them to do that and have you

1010
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:28,120
Speaker 2: wake up one day realize, oh crap, I am way

1011
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:31,280
Speaker 2: down this rabbit hole and further than I thought. And

1012
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:33,800
Speaker 2: that is a lot sneakier, you know.

1013
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: Hm.

1014
01:06:35,120 --> 01:06:38,080
Speaker 2: So I'm I mean, I'm actually encouraged by that because

1015
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 2: I think it's the reality that so many of us

1016
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,760
Speaker 2: live in. I didn't. I didn't when I went through

1017
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 2: the hardest I wrote the book on faith and mental

1018
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 2: health and a propha theology of suffering and all of

1019
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 2: that stuff. And I even wrote in that book, Brenda,

1020
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 2: I said, I have to watch how much I drink,

1021
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,720
Speaker 2: and then literally the book comes out and that next

1022
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 2: year and a half, I drink myself into what a

1023
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 2: traditional alcoholic looks like. Like how does that happen?

1024
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

1025
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,200
Speaker 2: And it's just like one slow compromise after slow compromise

1026
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 2: after slow thing, you know. And so I think as

1027
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 2: we land this plane, I would be curious your thoughts

1028
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 2: in your encouragement maybe to those who are listening who

1029
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 2: find themselves in what I call stories of just like

1030
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 2: messy sanctification, because I think that's your story. I think

1031
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:29,360
Speaker 2: it's my story. It's not clean cut, it's not it's

1032
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 2: not before and after, And would I would be curious, Yeah,

1033
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 2: what your your encouragement is to those people listening? You

1034
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 2: are like, Okay, I'm really resonating with Brenna's story. I've

1035
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 2: been kind of one step four, two steps back, or

1036
01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 2: two steps forward, one step back, or I thought I

1037
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 2: had this kicked and then this thing pops up, Like

1038
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:51,640
Speaker 2: what is your encouragement to those people who find themselves

1039
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:52,640
Speaker 2: on that type of journey.

1040
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's one statement that has two different sides,

1041
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: and it's something that my mentor has said to me,

1042
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: which is when I've gone, man, is it am I oppressed?

1043
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: Am I do I need? You know? Deliverance, minstry, all

1044
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 1: these things, and she goes, Satan will capitalize on whatever

1045
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,240
Speaker 1: whatever he have. So if you're missing chemicals in your brain,

1046
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: like if your brain's not producing what it needs to produce,

1047
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 1: Sanine's going to capitalize on that. And if you have

1048
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 1: past trauma, Saane's gonna capitalize on that, right Like, it's

1049
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,400
Speaker 1: it's all the things. It's not just one thing. Usually

1050
01:08:23,520 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 1: it's not just one thing, it's all the things. And

1051
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: so I think on one side just going, man, there

1052
01:08:31,479 --> 01:08:36,560
Speaker 1: is so much grace. One of my favorite things about

1053
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: First CRINSI in six nine through eleven is when Paul

1054
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:42,320
Speaker 1: goes and that's what some of you once were. The

1055
01:08:42,400 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 1: interesting thing is he's addressing them about something that they're

1056
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: struggling with now, but he uses were right, he uses

1057
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 1: a past tense for because he goes, you have been saved, sanctified, washed, cleansed. Okay,

1058
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 1: so sanctification like being saved that's a one time thing.

1059
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:08,599
Speaker 1: And then there's the daily sanctification of that of working

1060
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: out your salvation. And I I just think how beautiful

1061
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 1: that God chose to gate give us the complicated, messy

1062
01:09:20,800 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 1: stories of first century churches to say you're not the

1063
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,680
Speaker 1: only one, you are not the first one. Yes, and

1064
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: look at the beloved commitment of these apostles to these

1065
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:38,640
Speaker 1: churches saying you were messed up, you found Jesus, you

1066
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,160
Speaker 1: love him. You've messed up again. This is not the end.

1067
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:46,000
Speaker 1: Stand up, dust yourself off. We're doing this. You have

1068
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit. And that's where the other side comes

1069
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: in where it goes okay. Like we've talked about, it

1070
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:56,640
Speaker 1: is micro compromise after micro compromise that gets us to

1071
01:09:56,680 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: that place and going, you know, I've had things recently

1072
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:06,599
Speaker 1: where I've gone but it's permissible, it's permissible, and I

1073
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:08,600
Speaker 1: want to do it, and it's not a guarantee that

1074
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: this is going to lead to something bad, and people

1075
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: in my life going, Brenda, you don't want there to

1076
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 1: be an inch of possibility for it to enter into

1077
01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 1: something not good. So yes, it's permissible. No, it's not beneficial.

1078
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:41,680
Speaker 1: And I say this as a person who all the

1079
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:43,840
Speaker 1: time is like I want to do all the things

1080
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 1: permissible that It's like, we have to you have to

1081
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 1: chase only the beneficial things.

1082
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 2: And I'll be You've been radically vulnerable. I talk about

1083
01:10:56,080 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 2: radical vulnerability in my book. I'll be radically vulnerable. Like

1084
01:10:58,920 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 2: that conversation that you just had is like I have that.

1085
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 2: I have that conversation. I've had that conversation, and from

1086
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 2: time to time it still pops up. I'm like, can

1087
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 2: I like those TCHC gummies? Those Delta eight gummies? Man,

1088
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 2: They're they're there. I can order them through the mail.

1089
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 2: It's not illegal, you know. And and for a little

1090
01:11:16,800 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 2: bit after I gave up alcohol, I took them and

1091
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 2: I'm like, couldn't I judge?

1092
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 1: You know? And and and.

1093
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:27,320
Speaker 2: It's like permissible, yep, am I are they addictive? Like

1094
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 2: alcohol was Nope? Not you know, I they they weren't

1095
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 2: to me. And and the conversation that I had with

1096
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:37,160
Speaker 2: my wife and my own board of advisors is very similar, right,

1097
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 2: And it's like why why you know? And what are

1098
01:11:41,080 --> 01:11:45,479
Speaker 2: you why? Your whole what the Lord has revealed to you,

1099
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 2: John is that anything that you replace in light of

1100
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:53,719
Speaker 2: him is a problem. Even if it's not an addiction,

1101
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 2: even if it's not you know, I interviewed people for

1102
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,280
Speaker 2: the book. They weren't getting drunk, they weren't chemically dependent

1103
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 2: on alcohol, and they're like, I have started to treat

1104
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:07,200
Speaker 2: this where I deserve this and it is my escape

1105
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 2: in my release, and for me, that would easily become

1106
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,640
Speaker 2: even if not chemically dependent, chemically addicted like I was

1107
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 2: to alcohol, it would become my escape and release. And

1108
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,599
Speaker 2: you know what, I have to find myself doing a

1109
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:25,799
Speaker 2: lot brenda. When I don't have alcohol or gummies or whatnot,

1110
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:30,599
Speaker 2: I find myself literally praying myself to sleep because if

1111
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 2: I can't shut my mind off, and if I can,

1112
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:35,439
Speaker 2: i'm I'm it's literally forcing me to Jesus. I don't

1113
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 2: know who that person is, right, Like three years ago,

1114
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 2: I would have laughed at that person, right, And that's

1115
01:12:40,120 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 2: what it's forcing me to do. And so I just

1116
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 2: I thank you for for having that can that or

1117
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,679
Speaker 2: talking about that conviction and being vulnerable about that, because

1118
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of us out here who

1119
01:12:52,479 --> 01:12:55,160
Speaker 2: that's like. That's what I say is like I in

1120
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,559
Speaker 2: the end, I don't care about your art. I shouldn't

1121
01:12:57,560 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 2: say that I care about your sobriety, it's not my

1122
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,799
Speaker 2: ultimate care. My ultimate care is how are you putting

1123
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 2: Jesus in your life? Right? And because if it's just

1124
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 2: about sobriety, if it's just about what's permissible, then man,

1125
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 2: I just think you're missing out. And so I am

1126
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:17,600
Speaker 2: thankful for you that that comes through so much in

1127
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 2: what you're talking about and what you're doing. If people

1128
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:22,680
Speaker 2: want to find more about you, if they want to

1129
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 2: grab your book, where can they go?

1130
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can just search Brenda Blaine b l A

1131
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 1: I and know you at the end. I'm the only

1132
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:34,679
Speaker 1: Brenna Blaine in North America spelled that way, and everything

1133
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,519
Speaker 1: in the world will pop up on Google. So everything good,

1134
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: everything bad. Yeah, have a heyday.

1135
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 2: Right well, Brenna, thank you, Thank you. I cannot encourage

1136
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:48,559
Speaker 2: people enough to go follow you. I think you know.

1137
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 2: I can't remember. I think I typed this out to

1138
01:13:50,320 --> 01:13:52,519
Speaker 2: you once, like early on when we were communicating. I'm like, oh,

1139
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 2: this is gonna sound weird. I'm not going to send this,

1140
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 2: But I really think like that what joel To talks about,

1141
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 2: like where it says that that the Lord will pour

1142
01:14:02,040 --> 01:14:05,120
Speaker 2: out his spirit and your sons and daughters, you know,

1143
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,439
Speaker 2: will will proclaim the message you're you know, you're old

1144
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:10,800
Speaker 2: people have dreams and young people will see visions like

1145
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:15,840
Speaker 2: I think you are a living embodiment of joel To.

1146
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:18,760
Speaker 2: And I don't say that lightly and I don't say

1147
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 2: that flippantly, but I think like the Lord has poured

1148
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 2: out his spirit and you are a voice that we

1149
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 2: need in culture today.

1150
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 1: So thank you, Thank you. That is incredibly kind.

1151
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 2: You know, there's so much that I could point out

1152
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 2: there that that was good, but a few things that

1153
01:14:40,200 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 2: I want to highlight. The first is that it wasn't

1154
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:46,719
Speaker 2: just one addiction, right like it was, It was multiple addictions.

1155
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:48,559
Speaker 2: There's the alcohol, but then there was the cough medicine

1156
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:54,920
Speaker 2: and the stimulants. Right that that even after understanding her

1157
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:59,120
Speaker 2: proclivity to run and to escape into numb that it

1158
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:02,000
Speaker 2: can still sneak up, right, And the devil is like that,

1159
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 2: guys like he is. And that's why I say, like,

1160
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,720
Speaker 2: it's we have to get to the root of the problem, right, Like,

1161
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 2: it can't just be about stopping the substance. It's like, yes,

1162
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:15,680
Speaker 2: sobriety is a good goal, but that's why I say

1163
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:17,680
Speaker 2: it can't be the ultimate goal, Like I heard a

1164
01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 2: story recently about someone who was a leader in a

1165
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 2: Christian recovery space and fell but didn't do so in

1166
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:35,720
Speaker 2: an addiction sense, like didn't go back to the substance,

1167
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 2: but had another issue. And it doesn't surprise me why

1168
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 2: because I think too often we say to ourselves, as

1169
01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:50,719
Speaker 2: long as I am not doing X, I'm fine, and

1170
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 2: we neglect the other things. We neglect the deeper root

1171
01:15:55,080 --> 01:15:58,360
Speaker 2: and heart issues that have led us there in the

1172
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 2: first place. And so I think what Brena's story highlights

1173
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:06,920
Speaker 2: is the necessity of that, and I'm so glad I

1174
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:10,000
Speaker 2: think she's gotten to that point. The second thing I

1175
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 2: would say is that I love what she said about

1176
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:17,160
Speaker 2: how in the evangelical church right, like we expect other

1177
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:22,320
Speaker 2: people to be struggle less. Right, not just struggle less,

1178
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 2: but struggle less. Right, that to come to God is

1179
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 2: to come dressed up and in our best form. And

1180
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:36,320
Speaker 2: even though we'd say that's not the case, guys, we

1181
01:16:36,520 --> 01:16:41,280
Speaker 2: treat other people that way. We treat so many people

1182
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 2: that way. In the side eyes and the glances and

1183
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:46,280
Speaker 2: the looks and the comments that we make behind their

1184
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:49,160
Speaker 2: back are the ways that we react. Like, no, we

1185
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:52,639
Speaker 2: should not be shocked. You know, I have a tattoo

1186
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 2: on my arm that says he today I tomorrow right

1187
01:16:55,800 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 2: that I am one stupid decision, one night away from

1188
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:02,680
Speaker 2: being that person. And that's why I have to be

1189
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:07,360
Speaker 2: constantly making war on my sin and digging into the

1190
01:17:07,400 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 2: deeper heart issues. So I'd be the second thing. And

1191
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:12,719
Speaker 2: then you know the third thing is it really stood

1192
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:14,240
Speaker 2: out to me. You know, she talked about how there

1193
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 2: was really just one person that called her out regarding

1194
01:17:17,320 --> 01:17:22,880
Speaker 2: her drinking, and how surprising that was to her. And

1195
01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:24,479
Speaker 2: I think that should be a wake up call to

1196
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:27,840
Speaker 2: all of us, right is that when it comes to alcohol,

1197
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:31,760
Speaker 2: but when it comes to other things. I think we

1198
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 2: can become so lase a fair in some of this.

1199
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:37,880
Speaker 2: And that's not a call to legalism though, by the way,

1200
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:40,680
Speaker 2: that's not a call to legalism. It's a call to

1201
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:44,839
Speaker 2: be vigilant and that we need to be that iron

1202
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 2: sharpening iron. And I think so many times we fall

1203
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:53,000
Speaker 2: into people pleasing or we're worried about coming across a

1204
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:56,680
Speaker 2: certain way, and I think we need to practice delivering

1205
01:17:56,840 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 2: the truth in love, and we need to be in

1206
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:03,679
Speaker 2: close conne biblical community where we are discipling one another,

1207
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:09,360
Speaker 2: where those conversations are commonplace and aren't awkward. So those

1208
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,200
Speaker 2: are just a few of the things I think we're

1209
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 2: also about that conversation. Hopefully you can see why I've

1210
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 2: just come to adore Brennan. If there was one thing

1211
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:21,599
Speaker 2: that stood out to you, please send it to someone else.

1212
01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:23,920
Speaker 2: You can like, rate, share, subscribe, all that kind of stuff, right,

1213
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:28,880
Speaker 2: But really my most important ask is please share this

1214
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 2: podcast with someone else who can be encouraged. Thank you

1215
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:36,479
Speaker 2: to Life Audio, our partner who makes this possible, thinking

1216
01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 2: to the Life Recovery Bible, who has sponsored this show.

1217
01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:44,000
Speaker 2: Would love for you to pick up a copy of

1218
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:46,120
Speaker 2: a Life Recovery Bible. I have found it to be

1219
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 2: so encouraging and helpful. And then if you want to

1220
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:51,559
Speaker 2: go pick up a copy of my book, you can

1221
01:18:51,560 --> 01:18:53,400
Speaker 2: go to Christianlcoholic dot com as well as see some

1222
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:57,080
Speaker 2: of the other resources available to you Christianalcoholic dot com.

1223
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,280
Speaker 2: Love you all, We will see you back here again.

1224
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:00,400
Speaker 1: Tweaking