1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: This is Donna Jones and you are listening to That's 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,760 Speaker 2: just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've ever been 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 2: in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow, that 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 2: was just what I needed, you know how life giving 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: that can be. 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: Well, that's what this podcast is all about. We're women who. 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: Want to know, love, and follow God in our real lives, 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: but sometimes wonder just how to do it. So each 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: week we'll talk about what following God looks like in 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 2: the midst of daily demands and crazy cultural chaos. Because 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: this isn't just what we need, it's actually exactly. 13 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: What we need. 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: Hey, hey, my friend, I'm so glad you're here today. 15 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: I have a very interesting episode for you. I'm just 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: telling you it's not like any you have ever heard before. 17 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: So get ready, get ready. I'm just telling you, girl, 18 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: I'm just telling you. 19 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: Get ready. I'm going to tell you a little bit 20 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 1: about the guest in just a minute. 21 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: But I wanted to leave a review of the lucky 22 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,399 Speaker 2: winner who has won Becky Keef's new book, a vers 23 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 2: A Day for the Anxious Soul. This is what MMH 24 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 2: seven to one seven wrote when she rated the podcast. 25 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 2: This podcast touches my heart. It's practical and packed full 26 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: of Godly wisdom. I feel like each time I listen, 27 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: I can't wait to talk about it or text it 28 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: to a friend. Well, thank you so much for that 29 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 2: kind review, and I just can't tell you how much 30 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. And also, that is how the algorithm 31 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,919 Speaker 2: shows this podcast to other Christians that might be interested 32 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 2: in finding a podcast. So if you have not rated 33 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: or reviewed the podcast, would you do me favor and 34 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: just take two seconds to do that because it is 35 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 2: so helpful in getting the podcast to a broader audience. Well, 36 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 2: let me tell you a little bit about today's guest. 37 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: Her name is a man, Hope Hailey. And the reason 38 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 2: I kind of laughed at the beginning when I said, 39 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: you've never heard a podcast like this, it's because you've 40 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: never met someone like this, I'm betting, because Amanda is 41 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: a get this biblical archaeologist with her degree in Hebrew 42 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: Scripture and Interpretation from Harvard University. Amanda is a lover 43 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 2: of the Bible. She believes wholeheartedly that it is God's word. 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 2: She loves God's people, and she loves history, and she 45 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 2: speaks and writes as the red haired archaeologist, so help me. 46 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: Welcome today's guest, Amanda Hope Hailey. Well, Amanda, welcome to 47 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: the podcast. 48 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: Thank you. 49 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be here. 50 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 2: I know we were talking so much before we even 51 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: hit record, and which has been so fun. 52 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: So I'm really excited for this conversation. 53 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: You've written a ton of books, but you have a 54 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,799 Speaker 2: brand new book out called Stone Still Speak. And when 55 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: I actually a friend of mine told me about your 56 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: fold and she said she was so great and her 57 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: background is really unique. And then when I read about 58 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 2: your background, Amanda, I was fascinated. I've never interviewed anyone 59 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 2: like you. I've never really even talked to anyone like you. 60 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 2: So I love to learn. I love I love the Bible. 61 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: I love to learn, and so I'm super excited about 62 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:20,839 Speaker 2: what you're going to be sharing with us. But tell 63 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: us a little bit about your background. 64 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: So I grew up in the Nashville area. That's something 65 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: we just determined we have in common, which is really fun. 66 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: And I grew up in a Christian home in a 67 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 3: pretty conservative denomination. And I would say when I was 68 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: in high school, I wouldn't have put it this way 69 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: at the time, but I would say it now as 70 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 3: a woman in her forties, I think media I felt 71 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: a call to the ministry. I didn't know what to 72 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: do with that because in the denomination I came out 73 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 3: of women just don't do that kind of thing. There 74 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: isn't a place for that. And so what ended up 75 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 3: happening is I sort of pressed it down. I went 76 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 3: to undergrad I went to an undergraduate school called Roads College. 77 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: It is a Presbyterian school in Memphis, Tennessee. And at 78 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: that school we were required to do four semesters of 79 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: some type of religious studies. So I obviously went the 80 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 3: Christian route. Wanted to learn more about the Bible, and 81 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 3: one of my first classes there was bublic archaeology. I 82 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 3: fell in love with it and I was really good 83 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: at it. And my professor there, she was like even 84 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: my advisor at the time. She within a matter of 85 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 3: weeks got me a full scholarship to go to israelin 86 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 3: dig and this was in two thousand and one, and 87 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: sadly that ended up not coming to Fruition because the 88 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: second into Fada was happening at the time there. But 89 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 3: what ended up happening, I think is I started to 90 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 3: pursue Biblical studies academically because I felt like there wasn't 91 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 3: a place for me to do that within the tradition 92 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 3: in which I grew up. And so here I was 93 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 3: at Rhodes College. I have professors who were encouraging me 94 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: to take Hebrew and Greek and Latin and French and 95 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 3: German and all the languages that you have to take 96 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 3: to do academic studies of the Bible. And they were 97 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 3: themselves Harvard graduates, and they encouraged me to apply to 98 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: Harvard Dinity School, and so that's what I did. They 99 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 3: written me beautiful recommendations. So I ended up going to 100 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 3: Harvard and my master's degree is in Hebrew Scripture and Interpretation. 101 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 3: That's what printed on the diploma. But what I like 102 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 3: to say is, practically speaking, my degree is in Biblical 103 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 3: archaeology because all of my courses were in that and 104 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: I studied under a man named Lawrence Steger, and within 105 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: biblical archaeology, he is one of the giants of the 106 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 3: field of the twentieth and twenty first century. He sadly 107 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 3: passed away a few years ago, but he did all 108 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 3: of his excavations at that time. He spent forty years 109 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 3: almost digging at Ashcaloon, which is a Philistine's site. It's 110 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 3: ten kilometers north of Gaza City. It is right on 111 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 3: the Mediterranean, and so that is where I ended up 112 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: going and digging for the first time in two thousand 113 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 3: and four, and again because of the people who were 114 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 3: around me, because of the encouragement that I received, and 115 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: of course, I think just the activity of being in 116 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: the dirt and excavating things and learning more about At 117 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: that time the Canaanites. The level we were working on 118 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 3: was older than the Philistine So we're learning about the 119 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 3: Canaanites of the time, and I mean that just sucked 120 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 3: me in and I absolutely loved it. And so as 121 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 3: a result of those studies, I ended up encountering a 122 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 3: lot of ideas, a lot of truths about the Bible, 123 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: about scripture, about the history of the religion of the 124 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 3: region that were in contrast to a lot of the 125 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 3: traditions that I was taught when I was in church 126 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 3: for several years, especially when I was in undergrad. That 127 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 3: was really challenging for me because I was hearing for 128 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 3: the first time, you know, some of these ideas. It 129 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 3: was being pointed out to me that there's two distinct 130 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 3: creation stories in the Bible, and they don't agree. What 131 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 3: you have in Genesis one, it's in a different order 132 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 3: from what you get in Genesis two and three, these 133 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 3: sorts of things. And as someone who grew up in 134 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 3: the church, I guess I knew that on some level, 135 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 3: but those things that never been pointed out to me before. 136 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 3: And so for several years I had this time where 137 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: I was learning about the Bible academically, and yet I 138 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 3: still had this faith. And I'm so thankful that for 139 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 3: whatever reason, I gave me the fruit of a strong 140 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 3: faith early in my life that I could be in 141 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 3: dialogue with him and I could basically say, I don't 142 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 3: get it. I don't understand how did these two things 143 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 3: not come together? You know, my Sunday school teachers talk 144 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 3: to me about how new wine was not alcoholic, and 145 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 3: I know from a scientific perspective, I now know from 146 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 3: an archaeological perspective from learning about vineyards and the way 147 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: wine was cultivated and even excavating some of those areas myself, 148 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 3: that is physically impossible, that biologically impossible, that is not 149 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: being described there. And even to say that wine was 150 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: not alcoholic actually then even changes the messages being given 151 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: the scripture and so something like that, where ideas are 152 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 3: in contradiction with each other, I had to just sort 153 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 3: of throw it up and be like, Okay, God, I 154 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 3: believe in you. And it took time, and what I 155 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 3: realized was where contradictions the contradictions weren't within the scripture itself. 156 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: It wasn't that God was wrong or that the Bible 157 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 3: was wrong. It was that all of these years of 158 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 3: human interpretation. As someone who grew up in the church, 159 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 3: I knew the interpretation better than I knew the text. 160 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 3: And so archaeology for me, and even just broader biblical studies, 161 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: was all about learning something new about scripture and about 162 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 3: the ancient world that would reveal to me this is 163 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: what scripture says, this is what humans have said about it. 164 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 3: These two things don't agree. And so let's lean into 165 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 3: what scripture says. Let's figure out why the humans said 166 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: what they did, and then let's decide if we agree 167 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: with that or not. And so coming to the place 168 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: where scripture is the highest authority there. But then the 169 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: ideas that we have created about it, those are secondary 170 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 3: and tertiary. They're things for us to talk about. In 171 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 3: some cases they're traditions, even for us to respect that 172 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 3: they are not scripture. What we say is not scripture, 173 00:08:58,480 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 3: only scripture is scripture. 174 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: Okay, wow, that is so fascinat well. 175 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 2: First of all, the fact that your biblical archaeologist in 176 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: and of itself is well in my mind, but it's 177 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: so fascinating that you have you articulated that some of 178 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 2: the just the story, you know, the Sunday School stories, 179 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 2: and I'm assuming that nobody had nefarious reasons for kind 180 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: of telling a Sunday School story in a way that 181 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: wasn't exactly how the Bible says, you know, because you're 182 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: doing it for kids and you're trying to make it understandable. 183 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: But then what ends up happening, to your point, is 184 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: that we know the story that we heard better than 185 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: we know the actual text of scripture. And that's really 186 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 2: important that we understand the scripture. 187 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So, since. 188 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: You have learned a few things about what scripture actually says, 189 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 2: and then what you maybe have an earth to in 190 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: some of your biblical archaeology and some of the Sunday 191 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: School stories that we may have heard, give us an 192 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 2: example or two of how those two you may differ, 193 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 2: and then what we can learn from that. 194 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 3: The grandest, biggest example, I would say, and we could 195 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 3: spend the entire podcast from this for sure, is probably 196 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 3: David and Goliath. And I like talking about David and 197 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: Goliath because everything about Bible story telling get swept up 198 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 3: into this. In this story, we encounter textual and translation issues, 199 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 3: We encounter what archaeologists call material culture. You have giant 200 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 3: bonesacks she even found No, what does the archaeology tell 201 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 3: us that world may have looked like? And then we 202 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 3: also get into interpreted issues as well. So all of 203 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 3: this is packed into this one story. And so I'll 204 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 3: rip off the band aid and say, full stop, no 205 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 3: matter what Amazon is showing you, no matter what YouTube 206 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 3: is telling you, no matter how veggietails portrays it, Goliath 207 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 3: was not a giant, and your Bible does not say 208 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 3: that he was. But this David and Goliath's story has 209 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 3: become so large in our culture, This idea that David 210 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 3: was a gentle tween with a land flung around his shoulders, 211 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 3: a man, a young man, even a tween, A great 212 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 3: peace who came and a miracle happened, and he took 213 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: out a giant. This is so big in our culture. 214 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: We think about the David versus Gliath story, but that's 215 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 3: not what scripture says. And so the root of that 216 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: confusion comes with the two versions of the Old Testament 217 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 3: that we have. Book of Samuel. Let's just boil it down, 218 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 3: just there, Samuel, the translations that we have, and I 219 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 3: say this from a place of knowledge as well. I 220 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 3: spent seven years actually doing Hebrew translation for a Bible 221 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: that came out in twenty fourteen. There's two different ones. 222 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 3: There is the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of 223 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 3: Hebrew scriptures, and there is the Masoretic Text, which is 224 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: in Hebrew, but it is a thousand years newer than 225 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 3: the septuagen Throughout the Old Testament, in most of the 226 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 3: places where these things disagree with one another, what people 227 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 3: chose to do, what the scholars and translatters schooposed to do, 228 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 3: was to follow the Hebrew. But there was always this 229 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 3: question among translators, is more literally lost in translation from 230 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 3: the original Hebrew that we don't have any of the 231 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: original namescripts, that they're all lost, But was more lost 232 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: going into the Greek or what's more lost in that 233 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 3: additional thousand years of copying, because we sort of take 234 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 3: for granted our access to documents and written word these days, 235 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 3: based to Gutenberg and the printing Thrush. I mean it 236 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: really started there, but prior to that, people are copying 237 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 3: all these things. Well, so for literally thousands of years 238 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 3: people have debated which one is it, which is right? 239 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: And here with Elias fight, the set two agent puts 240 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 3: him in about six and a half feet tall, still 241 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 3: very big guy, or the Masoretic text puts him at 242 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: not white ten feet tall. That's what the translations say. 243 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 3: So what we needed was a third And this is 244 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 3: where ourchaeology comes in and is so very very helpful, 245 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 3: because in nineteen forty eight the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. 246 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 3: The Dead Sea Scrolls, by and larger generalizing, are as 247 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 3: old as the set Tuo Agent. They're as old as 248 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 3: that Greek translation, but they're still in Hebrew, and in 249 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: almost every single place that the original two manuscripts disagree 250 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: with one another, the Dead Sea Scrolls agrees with set 251 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 3: Tuo Agent. And so as of nineteen forty eight we've 252 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 3: had the answer to this. We have known since nineteen 253 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 3: forty eight that Goliath was six and a half feet 254 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 3: tall and not ten feet tall. But that idea has 255 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 3: so permeated culture, and it took until the nineteen nineties 256 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 3: for the Dead Sea Scrolls to really be disseminated out 257 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 3: into the public so that anybody could read them. That's 258 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 3: a story in and of itself. It's very good story, 259 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 3: but really scholars have known, but it's not making its 260 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 3: way into Bibles. And I will even say, when I 261 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 3: was working on this Bible translation, we had this conversation, 262 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 3: what are we going to do? How when we translated 263 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 3: into English? Which what are we going to follow? The 264 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 3: publisher elected to go with the masoretic text, to go 265 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 3: with the taller height, because he's said, I'll never forget this. 266 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: I will not be able to sell a Bible where 267 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 3: Goliath is not a giant. And so what happens is 268 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: you have the masoretic translation in there, everybody knows it's wrong, 269 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 3: it gets footnoted, and then in your footnotes it will 270 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: say something to the effect of Greek lxx or Greek 271 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 3: version read six and a half feet tall. So you 272 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: have that there, that is that textual element, that's archaeology 273 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: working into it right there. Then you look at the 274 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 3: text itself as a whole, we tend to chop it 275 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 3: down into just that battle between David and Goliath. And 276 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 3: as readers of the Bible, I think it is really 277 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 3: important for us to consider the context, not just of 278 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 3: the history, which of course you know I love as 279 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 3: an archaeologist, but the context of the Bible around it. 280 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 3: And prior to this one episode, you have David spending 281 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 3: years being a shepherd, and he when he goes to 282 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 3: King Saul and tries to convince Saul that he needs 283 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 3: to be the one to be the champion against Goliath, 284 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 3: he gives his resume and in his resume he says 285 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: to Saw and we lost over this. I've killed a 286 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 3: lion with my bare hands. I've killed a bear with 287 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 3: my bare hand. He spent years following these young animals around, 288 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: protecting them from predators. As a result of that, not 289 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: only did he develop a quiet spirit develop a relationship 290 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 3: with God, which of course is critical to the story, 291 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 3: but he also gained these skills. He was not a 292 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 3: young tween, he was not a young man. He was 293 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 3: not a weakling in any way. We know that because 294 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 3: he's killed lions and bears. Because of what he does 295 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 3: in the value of a law, and then critically what 296 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,160 Speaker 3: happens immediately after that. He doesn't return to being a shepherd. 297 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 3: Saul immediately makes him a journal in the army. He 298 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: immediately marries Saul's daughter. The whole story of David and 299 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 3: Goliath needs to be seen as this one episode, this 300 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 3: one critical point in David's development into the man after 301 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 3: God's doing heart, into that first king who really truly 302 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 3: united all of the tribes together. It's just this one 303 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 3: little bit here, and when you understand the story that way, 304 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: that it was David, who himself had spent years being 305 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 3: prepared physically and mentally and spiritually, versus Goliath, who the 306 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 3: way that he is described, he's a big guy. He's 307 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: a Philistine. You look at the history, the history of 308 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 3: the Philistines is becoming very well known thanks to DNA 309 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 3: evidence that is now coming out, a relief that you 310 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: find in Egypt. All sorts of archaeological work is helping 311 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: us still in his blanks. But they were Mycenaean warriors. 312 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 3: The way his armor is described, the weight of it, 313 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: Yes it was heavy, it's because it was bronze, but 314 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: it was no heavier than say Henry Yates armor was 315 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: back then. He was strong, he was physically capable. He 316 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: was chosen to be this champion, which was something that 317 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 3: definitely happened in the ancient world. When you see that 318 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 3: this was a battle that was critical for elevating David. 319 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: But it wasn't a miracle. None of that language is 320 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 3: used in the text. This isn't the story of God 321 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 3: coming in and making something miraculous happen. This is the 322 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 3: story of David's development. And I as a reader, and 323 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 3: I hope anyone who reads that text can be inspired 324 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: by it, because then this changes it. Now it's not 325 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 3: if I pray God will show up and he will 326 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: knock down giants. No, it's when I'm out in the 327 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 3: wilderness with a bunch of dumb sheep or whatever your 328 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 3: version of dumb sheep is, and I'm being attacked by 329 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 3: predators who are terrifying and come at night, or whatever 330 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 3: that version looks like. For you, God is using that 331 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: time to prepare you, and those periods in the wilderness 332 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 3: that is part of your preparation. God chooses people to 333 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 3: do work for him who the world would never choose. 334 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 3: Saulving A looking for this guy. He was a youngest son. 335 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 3: He was never going to be wealthy. He wasn't going 336 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 3: to have any inheritance really from his family, everybody overlooked 337 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 3: in including his own brothers. That even is in the text. 338 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 3: There is a story about God choosing people and people 339 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 3: who are after his own heart and preparing them so 340 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: that they can do great aims in his name. And 341 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 3: so that's I don't know, that's sort of my great 342 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 3: example of everything there. We can look at the archaeology, 343 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 3: we can understand the Philistines better, we can get that 344 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 3: colored background. And then also by taking that flawed translation 345 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: out and seeing it as a young man who simply 346 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 3: goes up against an aggressive warrior, then this becomes a 347 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 3: story that actually applies to us in our lives. 348 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: Wow, that is absolutely fascinating. And I love the point 349 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 2: that you made about how applicable this can become because 350 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 2: it's the story of David's development, and it's a story 351 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: of David's heart because he said the battle belongs to 352 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 2: the Lord. So he even understood, yes I've been developed, 353 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: Yes I kill the lion and the bear, but this 354 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 2: uncircumcised phil steam is going to be like that to me. 355 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: I mean, it's because he's defied the armies of the 356 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: Living God. 357 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 1: So he had both. 358 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: The preparation physically and also the preparation spiritually, which is 359 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: kind of to your point. So we're going to take 360 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 2: a quick break. It's got some questions that I know 361 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: are burning on our listener's heart. So when we come back, 362 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you those questions. Okay, So you 363 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: just kind of blew our mind with the Day of 364 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: Goliath story, but I do want to ask you this. 365 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: So if somebody's listening and they're like, oh, I don't 366 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: know if I want to know this because I fear 367 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 2: that it might kinder my faith, what would you say 368 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: to that person. 369 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 3: First off, I understand that fear, and I will say 370 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 3: when I was an undergrad, I grew up in the church. 371 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: A lot of my friends and undergrad grew up in 372 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 3: the church, and I watched a lot of people in 373 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 3: countering some disinformation and simply fall away from it. I 374 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 3: had a professor at Harvard who's actually traveling for a 375 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 3: visiting professor from Hebrew University, and he was an Orthodox 376 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 3: to you, but he made the point to us at 377 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 3: one point that so many of the things that the 378 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 3: world will throw up as being contradictions. So called contradictions 379 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 3: in scripture, aren't that I know. I mentioned at the 380 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 3: beginning there's two different stories of creation in Genesis. They 381 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 3: don't agree with one another. And the world may say 382 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 3: to you, well, then that is obvious that all this 383 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 3: is fate. And he made the point, and I would 384 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: even add to it. He made the point that if 385 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 3: scripture were the creation simply of if it were the 386 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 3: product of humans, then you would have those so called 387 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: contradictions in there, because we as humans would make us corrections. 388 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 3: And I would even add to that. After spending twenty 389 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 3: years in publishing, anytime maybe I've worked with an author 390 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 3: who had their own maybe had two competing ideas in 391 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 3: a book, and I would go to that person and say, look, 392 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 3: you need to lean into one of these or the other. 393 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 3: And so a human looking at scripture would say, okay, 394 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 3: we need to change the order of creation in one 395 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 3: of these in Genesis. And these are some of the 396 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 3: classic things that people will throw up as reasons to 397 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: shake your faith. I think that that is actually evidence 398 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 3: of God in there. And I can't tell you specifically 399 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 3: why you have two different versions. I do talk about 400 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,400 Speaker 3: that sum in this book. Why might there be these 401 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:13,879 Speaker 3: two different versions of creation? I think both are necessary. 402 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 3: I think both do different things. I think they tell 403 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 3: us different things, They show us different aspects of God, 404 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 3: and we need both of those in order to understand 405 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 3: God better. This scripture the way it came to us, 406 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 3: with all of the messy parts that we don't understand, 407 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 3: there are I think intentional wonders built into the scripture. 408 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 3: And so when you encounter that, I think that is 409 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 3: an invitation for us to lean into the scripture even 410 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 3: more and spend time there and really talk to God 411 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 3: about that and say, I don't understand why are these 412 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 3: two well? Which one is it? And the answer is 413 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 3: both of those are in there for a reason. And 414 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 3: God did not give us both of those stories to 415 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 3: be like this perfect historical reflection of everything that happened 416 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: during that No, we have scripture so that we get 417 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: to know God better. He didn't give it to us 418 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 3: so that we understand the exact mechanics of absolutely everything 419 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 3: that He has done. He gave it to us so 420 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 3: that we will have a deeper relationship with Him, and 421 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 3: that requires spending time in the text and leaning into 422 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 3: the parts of the text that we're uncomfortable with. When 423 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: we go around and we need new people, and you 424 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,959 Speaker 3: get to know someone, you know, there comes a point 425 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 3: in your relationship where you get past the surface stuff 426 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 3: and you start talking about the hard things. That is 427 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 3: how relationship develops. God wants us asking those questions, He 428 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 3: wants us engaging with him on these things that we 429 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 3: don't understand, and through that engagement faith only gross because 430 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 3: God shows up in those places. 431 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, give us an example because there's tension here. 432 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: There's definitely tension here. So give us an example about 433 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: how for you there was some tension, but as you 434 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: leaned in, it really strengthened your relationship with God. 435 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 3: This doesn't come from the book. This is an outside example. 436 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 3: But I would say Mary Magdalen. I grew up being 437 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 3: told that Mary Magdalen was a prostitute, and I grew 438 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 3: up being told that she was the sinner who washed 439 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 3: Jesus's feet with her hair in Leap seven. The text 440 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 3: does not say that, And I grew up being told that, 441 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 3: and the implication was she was the feeble one. And 442 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 3: once I realized that, first off, the text did not 443 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 3: agree with what I had been told for all of 444 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 3: those years. Then I started to learn more about the 445 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: ancient world, and even for me going to Magdala. Magdala 446 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 3: was discovered. I have been about fifteen years ago. It 447 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: was a complete Fluca, complete accident. When you go to Magdala, 448 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 3: that's its own story in and of itself. That you 449 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 3: go there and you see that it was a wealthy city. 450 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 3: It's right on the Sea of Galilee. It's a lot 451 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 3: of its trade was very obviously in fish, because you 452 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 3: have fisheries and everything everywhere. But critically there's the synagogue 453 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 3: there with the foundation stone there. And the Bible never 454 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: tells us that Jesus went and preached Magdala, but he 455 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 3: probably did because it's only like ten minutes north of Capana. 456 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 3: But you go and you see, and you see where 457 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 3: Mary Magdalene came from, and then maybe you're able to 458 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 3: understand a little bit better. The text doesn't tell us 459 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 3: very much about her, but what it does tell us 460 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 3: is that she came from there, and that she was 461 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 3: a woman of means somehow, and that she was completely 462 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 3: devoted to Jesus. She is the only figure in a 463 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 3: scripture male or female, who in all four Gospels is 464 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: present at the open two. She's the only one, not 465 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: the apostles, No, it's only her, And so learning more 466 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 3: about her figure, that's sort of what broke this whole 467 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 3: thing open to me. That was what helped me to 468 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 3: see the difference between what I have been told all 469 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 3: of my life about the Bible and what the Bible 470 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 3: actually says. And so my world had been telling me 471 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 3: forever that women who get too big for their riches 472 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 3: are or sinners and should be quiet. But what Scripture 473 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 3: actually says is the woman who follows Jesus around and 474 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 3: gives her her time and her treasure and everything that 475 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 3: she has into understanding him better and developing that relationship better, 476 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 3: that should actually be the goal. That is the woman 477 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 3: who is not put down as a sufferer of the 478 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 3: original seven deadly sins. No, that is the woman who 479 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: gets to be present at the open tune. That for 480 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 3: me is probably the most personal story because it's sort 481 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 3: of cracked everything open for me, that one New Testament figure, 482 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 3: Because like David never should have been keen according to 483 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,399 Speaker 3: human standards, Marry Magdalene should not have had the history 484 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 3: in the staying power that she does in the religious 485 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 3: consciousness is another instance of in this case a woman 486 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 3: because of her recognition of Jesus and because of the 487 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 3: way that she behaves, she can actually be an inspiration 488 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 3: to us today, even though I think our culture really 489 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 3: going all the way back to Pope Gregory to Great, 490 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 3: even though our culture since him has tried to make 491 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 3: her into the exact opposite. 492 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so let me ask you something because I 493 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 2: always assumed, because the scripture does say about Mary Magdalen 494 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: that there were seven demons that had been cast from her. Yes, 495 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 2: So that's what I'm assuming is that as people were 496 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: retelling the story, they thought, okay, well she must have 497 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: been then a prostitute because of that particular aspect that 498 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: is recorded in the scripture. 499 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: Is that how that kind of came to be? Or 500 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: do you know? 501 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 3: I do know. I've done qunduit of research on this actually, 502 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: and it goes back to Pope Gregory the Great. So 503 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 3: we're talking sixth century and during the sixth century, if 504 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 3: you lived in the Western world, if you were Christian, 505 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 3: you were Catholic. And during this time period people were 506 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 3: not literate. If they were literate, then they were literate 507 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: in their own language. Very few people would have been 508 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 3: able to read the Greek of the New Testament because 509 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 3: the b had not been translated into the common languages yet. 510 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 3: That is something that comes really with the Protestant Reformation 511 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 3: a thousand years later. And so for the average Christian 512 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 3: who is out there, they learn based on what they 513 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 3: are hearing in their churches. They learn based on what 514 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 3: they are hearing that their pope has said, because the 515 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 3: pope is of course the mouthpiece of God, and they 516 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 3: are learning based on what the artists around them are creating. 517 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 3: Those artists who themselves cannot read the language have never 518 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 3: been over to the Fertile Crescent. Even all of this 519 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 3: imagery from the time Mary Magdalen, the classic oldest portraits 520 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 3: of her, She's portrayed as a redhead. Now I'm a redhead. 521 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 3: She's portrayed as a redhead, which is a sign of sinfulness. 522 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 3: Judzebel her ray have all of these classic women of 523 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 3: the Bible who were at all rebellious were always painted, 524 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 3: almost always painted as redhead. So what happens is Pope 525 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 3: Gregory the Great is giving a homily actually on Luke seven, 526 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 3: and Luke seven is where at the end of it, 527 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 3: the sinner. It's a woman. She's a sinner. It doesn't 528 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 3: say it's sexual sin. It doesn't say she's a prostitute. 529 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 3: It simply says that she is a sinner. She is 530 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 3: the one who washes Jesus's feet with her hair. She 531 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 3: doesn't have a name, and this is a problem for 532 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 3: Pope Gregory the Great. He wants her to have a name. 533 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 3: So he does what you know any of us would do, right, 534 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 3: and he just keeps reading, and he goes to the 535 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: next female name in the Bible, which happens to be 536 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 3: Mary Magdalen. Because the next thing that happens is Luke 537 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 3: a Jesus castile seven demons. But Pope Gregory the Great, 538 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 3: first off, he conflates the two. He makes Mary Magdalen 539 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 3: into that other woman. There's no reason to think that 540 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 3: they are the same person, and in fact, if you 541 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 3: read the text, it's highly unlikely that they were. But 542 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 3: then he goes even further. This is also weird. We 543 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 3: get the origin of the idea of the seven Deadly 544 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 3: sins because he is the one man who puts the name. 545 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 3: He likes to name things. He wants the woman to 546 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 3: have a name. He wants those demons to have a name, 547 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 3: and this is where he decides that those demons are 548 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 3: the seven deadly sins, and he talks about all of them, 549 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: but he harps on sex. That's where it comes froms 550 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: So she gives this homily. He's the mouthpiece of God. 551 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: Very few people have the ability to go to the 552 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 3: original text and actually check him on this, And if 553 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 3: they were going to check him on this, they wouldn't 554 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 3: because mouthpiece of God. So he starts here, he makes 555 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 3: what I would say are extremely critical and irresponsible errors 556 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: in his presentation and interpretation of that text. Well, so 557 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 3: he does it, then churches start talking about it, and 558 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 3: basically it just becomes this rumor and it grows and 559 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 3: it grows and it grows, and over time, Mary Magdalene 560 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 3: wasn't just the woman with seven demons, but she becomes 561 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 3: this prostitute. And so, I mean, that's it. We're looking 562 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 3: at essentially fifteen hundred years of gossip and that idea 563 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 3: a lot like David and Goliath. An idea gets so 564 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 3: baked into our brain that when we go back into 565 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 3: the scripture and we read it ourselves, we put those 566 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 3: ideas in there. Somebody has to point out to you 567 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 3: that the text never says that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. 568 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 3: Somebody really needs to do that, because otherwise you go 569 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 3: in and you're reading about Mary Magdalen, and you're supplying 570 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 3: that for yourself. Because when I was growing up, you 571 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 3: have your felt boards, and I remember my favorite character 572 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 3: on the felt board was always Mary Magdalene because she 573 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: had the prettiest clothes and she had like makeup all 574 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 3: over her eyes. She was always the pretty She had 575 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 3: like little test nets on her fingers. I don't know 576 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 3: what that was all about, but I mean, you know, 577 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 3: she was the woman wearing makeup, that kind of thing. 578 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 3: And so from that young age you get these images 579 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 3: because before we are literate, and that that is true 580 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 3: of adults fifteen hundred years ago who simply weren't literate, 581 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 3: and that is true of us as children. Until we 582 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 3: ourselves become literate. You learn by stories and images, and 583 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 3: so the stories and images get baked into your brain 584 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 3: long before you're reading the text for yourself. And so 585 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: it takes something like somebody pointing out this information, or 586 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 3: being in the archaeological field and going to the city 587 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: of gat and seeing the city where Goliath lived. Goliath 588 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 3: and all of the other people and realizing what their 589 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 3: architecture looks like and that there's no way that they 590 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 3: were giants, but their architecture was different, their city was large. 591 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 3: You go and you see something else, and when you 592 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 3: see something physically, it'll shake things up enough that you 593 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 3: can go back into the scripture with new eyes. Hopefully 594 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 3: that's the goal. 595 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: Right, and then understand things accurately, which is the point. 596 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 2: Okay, Amanda, tell us how we can get a copy 597 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: of your book or. 598 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: Connect with you. 599 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 3: So, I'm Amanda Hope Haley. I'm on Facebook and Instagram. 600 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 3: Facebook is where the good conversations happen. That's where people 601 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 3: ask me questions and I do my best respond I 602 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: post a lot archaeology stuff for the book. If you 603 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 3: just go to stones still speak dot com, you can 604 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,840 Speaker 3: actually download the first chapter for free. I encourage you 605 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 3: to do that, and then there's lots of leaks in 606 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 3: there too, so that you can purchase it from your 607 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 3: favorite retailer. It's available everywhere. 608 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 2: As we say, okay, great, we'll put that information in 609 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,239 Speaker 2: the show notes. Well, Amanda, thank you so much for 610 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 2: sharing your wisdom, your insight, and ikind of blew my mind. 611 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 1: There a little bit. 612 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 2: With a couple of things, especially Goliath. I'm gonna like 613 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: have to think about that one. But it is so 614 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: interesting how archaeology opens our eyes to new things, but 615 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 2: it also confirms that the Scripture is in fact reliable 616 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: and the word of God. And I love the fact 617 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,959 Speaker 2: that you, you know just so beautifully. 618 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: With your scientific background, your archaeological background, and your biblical 619 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: background and your heart for Jesus, just have woven all 620 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: of this together. So thank you so much. 621 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 3: Well, you're so welcome. Thanks for having me. 622 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 2: Well, I know you learned a thing or two on 623 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 2: this podcast, probably even blew your mind, because I know 624 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: it blew mine with a couple of things. As a reminder, 625 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 2: I would love to connect with you on social media. 626 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: You'll find me at Donna A. 627 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 2: Jones on Instagram or Donna Jones Speaker and author on Facebook. 628 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: And I would love. 629 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: To come visit you to speak at your event or 630 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: for your church women's retreat. In fact, I'm getting ready 631 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 2: to go back to do a retreat this weekend and 632 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 2: I would love to visit your neck of the woods 633 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: as well. You can find out about having me come 634 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 2: speak for your church or organization at Donna Jones dot 635 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: org and as always, my friend. I can't wait to 636 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: see you next time, for that's just what I needed.