1
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:17,000
Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of

2
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,320
Speaker 1: a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel.

3
00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:26,080
Speaker 1: This is your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and

4
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,520
Speaker 1: remarkable comebacks. In the end, this podcast is a place

5
00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:36,200
Speaker 1: for the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

6
00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,880
Speaker 1: But it's also a place of hope and healing. I

7
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:44,080
Speaker 1: know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic,

8
00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,440
Speaker 1: not the other way around. Today I've found sobriety after

9
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:53,199
Speaker 1: decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I

10
00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,360
Speaker 1: found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview people

11
00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: just like you and just like me, along with professionals

12
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,920
Speaker 1: in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you

13
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,440
Speaker 1: will find the piece that is available to you through

14
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,240
Speaker 1: Christ on the other side of whatever you're going through

15
00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,759
Speaker 1: and whatever addiction that might be. Because let's face it,

16
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 1: we're all addicted to something so welcome, let's get radically

17
00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,720
Speaker 1: vulnerable as we explore what it looks like to be

18
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,759
Speaker 1: on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll be right back

19
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:36,560
Speaker 1: after this. One of the really important premises of this

20
00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,759
Speaker 1: podcast of my book of the work that I'm doing

21
00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 1: in this space is that you never know who is struggling,

22
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:51,200
Speaker 1: who has struggled with addiction. And again I think you know,

23
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,320
Speaker 1: just so you know, when I say that word addiction,

24
00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:59,160
Speaker 1: I don't mean just the traditional framing the visuals that

25
00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:01,920
Speaker 1: come to mind, right, because in the end, what do

26
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,880
Speaker 1: I say. I say, We're all addicted to something, right.

27
00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: We all have idols in our life, right. And so

28
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,359
Speaker 1: my point is that there are more people struggling, more

29
00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:18,000
Speaker 1: people who realize that than we realize. And so today's guest, interestingly,

30
00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 1: is one of those people. And I did not find

31
00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:25,640
Speaker 1: out that they struggled with alcohol until I got them

32
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,960
Speaker 1: on the phone, or should say, on the computer. Today's

33
00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,960
Speaker 1: guest is Jamie Winship. And if you have read my

34
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,640
Speaker 1: book Living or excuse me, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic,

35
00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 1: you know his book Living Fearless had one of the

36
00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,040
Speaker 1: biggest impacts on my life, on my sobriety journey, on

37
00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:50,920
Speaker 1: bringing me from a place of just rock bottom to

38
00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,320
Speaker 1: the Lord rebuilding me into the person I am today

39
00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,960
Speaker 1: and the person I am to become. And Jamie's book

40
00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,760
Speaker 1: is about it's Living Fearless it's called Exchanging the lives

41
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,079
Speaker 1: of the World for the liberating Truth of God. And

42
00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,400
Speaker 1: I joke that like it's it's not the greatest title

43
00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 1: because it's about identity. Although as you'll hear towards the

44
00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 1: end of the conversation, everything come back comes back to lies.

45
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:23,080
Speaker 1: And so right before we started recording this conversation, was

46
00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,680
Speaker 1: talking to Jamie as I do with all our guests,

47
00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,280
Speaker 1: and just kind of chatting and starting the conversation, and

48
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:34,240
Speaker 1: he said something to me that just like literally like

49
00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,840
Speaker 1: I was like, you're kidding, right, And he told me, oh, yeah,

50
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,680
Speaker 1: I've been sober for twelve years. And I said, wait

51
00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,920
Speaker 1: what And I said, you mean you struggled with alcohol

52
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:47,840
Speaker 1: and he said, yeah, he goes, I don't tell too

53
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,800
Speaker 1: many people that, and I've just recently started talking about

54
00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:54,840
Speaker 1: it recently within the last two years. But but yeah,

55
00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 1: that's actually a big part of my story. And you know,

56
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 1: there's a there is a big story there of how

57
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 1: it happened in Q eight and you know, my wife

58
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,120
Speaker 1: and I we it's a huge part of our marriage

59
00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,360
Speaker 1: and how we've grown together. And I was just like floored,

60
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,160
Speaker 1: and it was just this this little godwink of like

61
00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,440
Speaker 1: this person that I look up to, this person has

62
00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,400
Speaker 1: been so influential in my life, and here they are

63
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,839
Speaker 1: one of those people. They are one of those people

64
00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,640
Speaker 1: that I always talk about that you never know who

65
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,240
Speaker 1: is also struggling. And so this conversation I went into

66
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,880
Speaker 1: it thinking it was going to be about abiding with Christ,

67
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 1: about identity, and it is about those things, and it

68
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,800
Speaker 1: is an incredible conversation about those things. But then the

69
00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:46,960
Speaker 1: last third of the conversation is about Jamie's story and

70
00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,160
Speaker 1: struggle with addiction. And I think it is so important

71
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,400
Speaker 1: because here's a guy who writes the book on identity,

72
00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,040
Speaker 1: and he talks about he has stories in this book

73
00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,360
Speaker 1: about the Lord speaking to him, and the Lord him

74
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,839
Speaker 1: to do this and following the Lord, and yet during

75
00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,200
Speaker 1: a lot of that time he was struggling with the

76
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,560
Speaker 1: thorn in his flesh. He had the thorn in his

77
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,920
Speaker 1: flesh of alcohol. And he explains why he was constantly

78
00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:18,200
Speaker 1: turning to alcohol, how about it got, and how he

79
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 1: eventually exchanged the lies that alcohol was telling him for

80
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:26,720
Speaker 1: the liberating truth of God. This is one of our

81
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,400
Speaker 1: longer podcasts, and I am so excited about that because,

82
00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,839
Speaker 1: as I say, when Jamie and I are talking. When

83
00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,120
Speaker 1: I started this podcast, this was no offense to any

84
00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,240
Speaker 1: of our guests. So the one person I knew I

85
00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,080
Speaker 1: had to get on because of the impact that he

86
00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,080
Speaker 1: has had on my life. I should say the impact

87
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 1: that God has had on my life through him, right,

88
00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,760
Speaker 1: And so I'm excited to bring you the conversation with

89
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,120
Speaker 1: Jamie Winship talks all about identity. You can pick up

90
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 1: Living Fearless, you can go to Identity Exchange and see

91
00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,679
Speaker 1: the work that he is doing. So without further ado,

92
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 1: Jamie Winshit Jamie, thank you so much for joining the

93
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,160
Speaker 1: Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. This is you know

94
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,599
Speaker 1: we said I said a little bit offline, said it

95
00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 1: a little bit on the intro. This is such a

96
00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,160
Speaker 1: treat for me. If there was one person as I

97
00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:17,920
Speaker 1: started this podcast, I'm like, I have to get on,

98
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,760
Speaker 1: and I think I probably hounded so many people.

99
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,280
Speaker 2: So thank you for joining us. Oh no, man, I'm

100
00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,800
Speaker 2: glad to be here with you. Yeah, we're soulmates in

101
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,160
Speaker 2: a way, as we've discovered. So yeah, yeah, ga to

102
00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:30,680
Speaker 2: be here.

103
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,120
Speaker 1: And so this is incredible because there's an aspect to

104
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,160
Speaker 1: your story that you have a sobriety and addiction story

105
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,160
Speaker 1: that I didn't know even about. So we're gonna get

106
00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:44,640
Speaker 1: to that. But for someone who talks and teaches on identity,

107
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, I've done the intro in your bio and whatnot.

108
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,799
Speaker 1: But I'm curious if I ask you the question introduce yourself,

109
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 1: what do you do? Who are you? I'm curious to

110
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 1: know how you answer that. So let me ask you

111
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,480
Speaker 1: if you could introduce yourself a little bit, how would

112
00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:01,920
Speaker 1: you do that?

113
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, my name is Jamie and I

114
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 2: am a militant peacemaker, specifically an untire of knots. That's

115
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 2: who I am. That's my identity, right.

116
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 1: And so it's it's very interesting. So we'll get to

117
00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 1: the identity part. But I I especially want to talk

118
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,280
Speaker 1: about that untire of knots because I've read Living Fearless,

119
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,400
Speaker 1: New Militant Peacemaker and then you come out with the

120
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: Guided Journal last year and I flipped through there and

121
00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa what? And it's

122
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,080
Speaker 1: like it's like, well, I'm untired of knots, and your

123
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,320
Speaker 1: identity can grow and mature, and I'm just my head explodes.

124
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 1: So Before we get there, though, you open up your book,

125
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,640
Speaker 1: which is on identity, with this concept of abiding. And

126
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,800
Speaker 1: you know, my book walks through the four steps that

127
00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,800
Speaker 1: the Lord took me through, and the first one is

128
00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,800
Speaker 1: abiding in Christ. How come on a book an identity

129
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,480
Speaker 1: you open it up with abiding in Christ? And why

130
00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:06,360
Speaker 1: is that important?

131
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 2: Yeah? Because all identity and a lot of how we

132
00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 2: talk about things is is it's not whether something's Christian

133
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,160
Speaker 2: or non Christian, or biblical or on biblical. It's more

134
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 2: it's because Jesus doesn't talk that way. He's not saying

135
00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,320
Speaker 2: this is a biblical truth or this is a Christian truth.

136
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,080
Speaker 2: He's just saying, here's what's true. This is what's true,

137
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,840
Speaker 2: and you shall know and experience what's true the truth

138
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,959
Speaker 2: and the truth will set you free. Even refers to

139
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 2: himself as I am the Way, the Truth and the life.

140
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,000
Speaker 2: And so when we're talking about things, we're talking about

141
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:46,079
Speaker 2: what's true. So true identity means that it's true. This

142
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,880
Speaker 2: is going to be a true statement for all people

143
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:52,239
Speaker 2: in all time and all cultures. True identity is received

144
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:59,040
Speaker 2: received no one. No identity comes from being self generated. Ever, never,

145
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,320
Speaker 2: no child comes up with identity from just an idea

146
00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,240
Speaker 2: they have about it's all information coming into them received.

147
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,680
Speaker 2: All identity is received in community. And as a believer,

148
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,760
Speaker 2: as a Christ follower, we would say all identity is

149
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 2: received in community from God. So if identity is received

150
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,880
Speaker 2: in community from God, and there is no other organizing

151
00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 2: principle in the universe for any living thing other than identity,

152
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,959
Speaker 2: identity determines everything about what you do being informed doing.

153
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:40,800
Speaker 2: So if all of that is received in community from God,

154
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,679
Speaker 2: then by far the greatest thing you could ever do

155
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:49,440
Speaker 2: is abide in God in Christ. And so that's why

156
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,960
Speaker 2: that is so powerful that statement remain abide. If you

157
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 2: abide in Me and my words abide in you, then

158
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,000
Speaker 2: the things that you ask, because the abiding is so intense,

159
00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:05,840
Speaker 2: it's going to be a yes. Because you're asking right

160
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,960
Speaker 2: out of the mind and heart of God. Connected to

161
00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,040
Speaker 2: your mind and heart. You're going to ask, You're not

162
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,480
Speaker 2: gonna you're not probably not going to be asking things

163
00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,400
Speaker 2: that are counter to that, so they so the yes becomes,

164
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 2: you know, more frequent. So that's why abiding is so important.

165
00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 2: If you abide in Me, that's the case. If if

166
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,760
Speaker 2: you don't abide in Me, then you're receiving from some

167
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,800
Speaker 2: other source, whatever it is, you're abiding in wherever you're

168
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:36,080
Speaker 2: connected to. So that's why I started with abiding And

169
00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,199
Speaker 2: like my training officer, you know in the book when

170
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,960
Speaker 2: I was in the police department, when I was in

171
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:47,200
Speaker 2: training role, the troll. Yeah, the famous troll. Uh you know.

172
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,240
Speaker 2: I I didn't he didn't force me to be with him.

173
00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,160
Speaker 2: I had to make a decision to be with him

174
00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,840
Speaker 2: every day, right, And if I didn't want to be

175
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,679
Speaker 2: with him, I wouldn't have that job and I wouldn't

176
00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,959
Speaker 2: be in that place. But so I had to make

177
00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,439
Speaker 2: a decision to be with him every day. And in

178
00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,960
Speaker 2: that abiding with him, I learned from him. I learned

179
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,560
Speaker 2: how he talked, I learned how he you know, wrote

180
00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,080
Speaker 2: reports and all that. So it's a decision each day

181
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 2: to abide in Christ each moment, like I'm gonna I'm

182
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:16,320
Speaker 2: going to remain here?

183
00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,200
Speaker 1: What does I think? There's a lot of people and

184
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 1: I try to walk through this in my book a

185
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,679
Speaker 1: little bit. I know you do. But okay, they say,

186
00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 1: all right, John, Jamie, I get it, John fifteen abide

187
00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,200
Speaker 1: in Christ. So does that mean I just like I

188
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,920
Speaker 1: have to carve out my thirty minutes? Does that like,

189
00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,120
Speaker 1: what does that look like? What does that actually mean

190
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:37,599
Speaker 1: for me?

191
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:44,000
Speaker 2: M hmm. Yeah. Unfortunately it's taught as fifteen minutes. That's right, right,

192
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,360
Speaker 2: If you spend ten minutes with God, your life's going

193
00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,320
Speaker 2: to change. But abiding is like think think of the

194
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,640
Speaker 2: story of Zachias. So Zachias, you know, wants to have

195
00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,199
Speaker 2: an experiential encounter of Jesus. Really is what he wants.

196
00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,200
Speaker 2: And so when Jesus sees him, he says, he says

197
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 2: in the Greek, he says, come down, I must abide

198
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,839
Speaker 2: with you. That's what he says, not visit. I don't

199
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,840
Speaker 2: want to visit your house. He uses the word abide.

200
00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:13,080
Speaker 2: So abide means to remain with you now and forever.

201
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,280
Speaker 2: And it says that Zechias came down and received him.

202
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:23,160
Speaker 2: There's the reception. He received him joyfully. So so he's

203
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 2: not saying I want to spend five minutes with you.

204
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,680
Speaker 2: He's saying I want to calm abide in your house today.

205
00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 2: And even the depth of that, even that abide in

206
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:37,560
Speaker 2: your house, it references to inside you internally. But so

207
00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,080
Speaker 2: to abide means it means to walk with all the time.

208
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 2: It's not like a certain amount of time. It's like

209
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,600
Speaker 2: we're going to be together all the time. So again

210
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,640
Speaker 2: with my training officer, ten hours a day, ten hours

211
00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,600
Speaker 2: a day, and he would say to me, don't talk

212
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,920
Speaker 2: because if you're talking, you're not listening. And if you're

213
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 2: not listening, you're not learning anything. So abiding is a

214
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,680
Speaker 2: lot about listening, a lot about listening, and not a

215
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 2: lot about abiding. So I can talk, I do talk,

216
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,719
Speaker 2: but it's ask a lot of questions. But abiding is

217
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 2: about a commitment to be with all the time and

218
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,360
Speaker 2: to do a lot of listening. So all day long,

219
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,079
Speaker 2: if I just ask people, if you were a disciple

220
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,800
Speaker 2: or a contemporary of Jesus and you got to access him,

221
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,280
Speaker 2: wouldn't you be just asking questions non stop? I mean,

222
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 2: if you could spend every day with Jesus, what kind

223
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 2: of things would you ask them? And there's a really

224
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:38,360
Speaker 2: great book called Jesus Is the Question? I think is

225
00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,840
Speaker 2: the title of the book, But the author talks about

226
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,320
Speaker 2: in the Gospels, people ask Jesus something like four hundred

227
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,520
Speaker 2: and eighty five questions. The guy he counted them, and

228
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:54,640
Speaker 2: Jesus and Jesus answers, and Jesus asks people like a

229
00:13:54,760 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 2: hundred questions like so so no Jesus, sorry reverse, Jesus

230
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,800
Speaker 2: asked four hundred and eighty seven questions to people. People

231
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 2: only ask him like half that many, Like why is

232
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 2: he asking more questions than the people are asking him?

233
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,640
Speaker 2: And the questions that Jesus is asked, he only answers three.

234
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,600
Speaker 2: All the questions Jesus is asked, he only answers three.

235
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,920
Speaker 2: And it's really interesting. It's like, why aren't we asking

236
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,960
Speaker 2: him questions? Like if you're walking with him every day,

237
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,680
Speaker 2: why aren't we asking God questions and then waiting and

238
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,560
Speaker 2: searching and listening for the answer. Yeah, Like that's to

239
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,600
Speaker 2: Psalm twenty seven. I would abide in your presence every day,

240
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 2: David says this one thing I would do. I would

241
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,840
Speaker 2: abide in your presence every day. I would gaze upon

242
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,120
Speaker 2: your beauty, and I would ask you questions. Those are

243
00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,000
Speaker 2: the two things he would do every day, all the time,

244
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,680
Speaker 2: if he had one thing to do, because he says,

245
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,400
Speaker 2: for surely you will answering me. So it isn't abiding

246
00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:01,400
Speaker 2: to me. Is you're with Jesus every day and night,

247
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:07,640
Speaker 2: and you're trying to see the whole world through his beauty. Right,

248
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,280
Speaker 2: So every situation you're in is like you're saying to

249
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,680
Speaker 2: the Lord, can you show me where your beauty is

250
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,480
Speaker 2: in this? Because I don't I definitely don't see it.

251
00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 2: So seeing the world through his beauty and then constantly

252
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 2: asking him questions and David says, for surely you will

253
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,240
Speaker 2: answer me. So that to me is abiding, just like

254
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 2: walking along with Jesus going what do you want me

255
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,520
Speaker 2: to know about this emotion that I feel? What do

256
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,120
Speaker 2: you want me to know about what they just said

257
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,000
Speaker 2: to me? Like that constant questioning and then waiting for

258
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 2: him to answer and speak back to you. It's just

259
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 2: like it's not a it's not like you're clocking in

260
00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:48,000
Speaker 2: and out. It's this beautiful, right, transformational relationship now.

261
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,120
Speaker 1: And here's what I think is interesting. In the beginning,

262
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,000
Speaker 1: when I started, you know, you asked offline, like how

263
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:55,760
Speaker 1: did you get sober? Right? And I said, I started

264
00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 1: abiding right. And in the beginning, I think sometimes our

265
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 1: habits lead to that experience right, And so I did

266
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,000
Speaker 1: have to. It was it was important for me just

267
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,240
Speaker 1: to at least start right. So I had to start somewhere,

268
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:14,520
Speaker 1: So I in a sense did start clocking in. That's right, yes,

269
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,160
Speaker 1: But but it has grown to exactly what you said,

270
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 1: and they're like, I'm looking at myself, Jamie, if you

271
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,400
Speaker 1: want to see me as a kid, I'm like, who

272
00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 1: who is this guy?

273
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:27,120
Speaker 2: Right?

274
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 1: Like this guy that's just walking it. Like I've used

275
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,040
Speaker 1: to always journal and I still do a lot, right,

276
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:36,240
Speaker 1: but in order to get me to that practice of

277
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,000
Speaker 1: abiding a journal I'm not journaling as much anymore. And

278
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,880
Speaker 1: I was actually praying about that this morning and the

279
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,160
Speaker 1: Lord was like, because you're just doing it all day long.

280
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,760
Speaker 1: You're just talking to me all day long, like, stop

281
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: feeling that guilt, like you're just doing it. And I

282
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,800
Speaker 1: was like, oh my goodness, I've gotten to this point.

283
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 2: This is insane, right, Yeah, And I think that's good.

284
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 2: I think that you're right about that. And again, if

285
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,160
Speaker 2: you're on a journey, especially from into it, from addiction

286
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,760
Speaker 2: or something like that, it's like the creation process in scripture.

287
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 2: There's chaos, there's it's a chaotic situation, and the first

288
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,400
Speaker 2: thing God does is brings order to it. He's there's

289
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,320
Speaker 2: morning and there's an evening, like he brings order first

290
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 2: first days of creation or he's establishing order. And then

291
00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,159
Speaker 2: once the order is established, then he starts filling it

292
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 2: with value and worth. Right, So so there's the there's

293
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:32,719
Speaker 2: the sky, and there's the ground, and then he and

294
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,639
Speaker 2: now then when it's ordered, okay, ordered, so like okay,

295
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,520
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get up every day and and instead of

296
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,760
Speaker 2: being you know, wasted all the time and chaos, I'm

297
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,160
Speaker 2: gonna get up tomorrow and I'm gonna spend one hour

298
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,880
Speaker 2: and you're just establishing order. And then and then as

299
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,040
Speaker 2: that order is established with God, then he starts to

300
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:57,040
Speaker 2: fill it, like fill it with value and worth and

301
00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: so that it moves away from just order into like, yeah,

302
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,160
Speaker 2: I don't even really need the law and the order anymore.

303
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 2: Like we've transformed up into this level level like we're

304
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 2: it's perfected. The law is perfected in love, the order

305
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,800
Speaker 2: is perfected in the value and the worth that you

306
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,760
Speaker 2: now realize who you are. I was just telling a

307
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 2: person earlier today. They were asking about what about this

308
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,520
Speaker 2: bad habit? What about this bad habit? I'm saying, like,

309
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 2: to continue those habits means that you don't have an alternative,

310
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 2: Like don't you have anything else to think about? Besides

311
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 2: that you don't know who you are, You don't have

312
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:41,120
Speaker 2: any value or worth. So this chaos ensues. So when

313
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,919
Speaker 2: you go to the Lord you know and desperation, usually

314
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,200
Speaker 2: he establishes order in the chaos, because he hovers over

315
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 2: the chaos of your life, and he establishes order. And

316
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 2: then in the order, now you can start receiving the

317
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,240
Speaker 2: value and worth that's always been there. You just couldn't

318
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 2: see it in the chaos and the darkness.

319
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:01,080
Speaker 1: Right.

320
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 2: So then once you realize that value in orders, like,

321
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,360
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, this is what this is what you

322
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 2: really think about me? Lord, we love him because he

323
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,199
Speaker 2: first loved us, like you've loved me this whole time.

324
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:17,720
Speaker 2: And and then it then you move from what I

325
00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:19,240
Speaker 2: have the you know, I'm going to do this as

326
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 2: a discipline into Wow, I'm going to do this because

327
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 2: the relationship is so incredible. These I don't need to

328
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,880
Speaker 2: like establish walls to keep everything out. This is more

329
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,680
Speaker 2: valuable to me than the rest of it.

330
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, abiding great, that was chapter one. So let's

331
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,119
Speaker 1: I want to move into the identity aspect. And you know,

332
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 1: it's funny because when I first picked up the book

333
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,440
Speaker 1: Living Fearless, I didn't think it was a book on identity, right,

334
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 1: and then bam, there it is, right, and I was like, okay,

335
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,520
Speaker 1: all right, this is awesome. Why and you said a

336
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 1: little bit about this early on, so maybe reiterated, but

337
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: why how did your life's work become about identity and

338
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 1: why that idea? Why identity?

339
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, because so early on in my life, you know,

340
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,199
Speaker 2: I from really eighth grade on, I wanted to be

341
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,639
Speaker 2: a police officer, you know, because of this experience I

342
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 2: had watching the movie A movie, and I wanted to

343
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 2: be like that person and the operative word that I

344
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 2: wanted to be that. I wanted to be like that person.

345
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,680
Speaker 2: But the only way I knew how to think about

346
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 2: it was to do what that person did. So it's

347
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 2: kind of like, so the vocational part of what I

348
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,679
Speaker 2: was watching was the only way I knew how to

349
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,480
Speaker 2: relate because I didn't understand the depth of what it

350
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 2: meant to be. So I decided, you know, I want

351
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,800
Speaker 2: to be a police officer, and then I just commit

352
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,479
Speaker 2: my life to that vocation and then get you know,

353
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 2: get through university and all that and into the police department.

354
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 2: And once I'm in there, I realized, Okay, so, like

355
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 2: there's a lot of I have a lot of people,

356
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 2: you know, on my squad and the precinct and all that,

357
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 2: and they're the same vocation. We're all in the same vocation.

358
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,520
Speaker 2: But wow, is it different according to who the person is?

359
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 2: Like it's not, yeah, we all stand for this thing,

360
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 2: and it was, well, not really, and then and then

361
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,199
Speaker 2: how we related to people and all of that and

362
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 2: I and then when I was talking to I would

363
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,160
Speaker 2: be interacting with people once I was out of probation

364
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 2: and all that, and they would be mad at me

365
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 2: or hate me or afraid of me, but they didn't

366
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 2: know anything about me, Like how can I walk in

367
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: this door and you hate me with every part of

368
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,480
Speaker 2: who you are? And you know there's this fear generated

369
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 2: not only in you and me also, and it's all

370
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 2: because of my vocation. You're looking at my vocation. And

371
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,880
Speaker 2: I then I would ask the question, well like if yeah,

372
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,680
Speaker 2: but if you if you could get past the uniform

373
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 2: and the badge and you saw the real me, this

374
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 2: would be a different conversation. And then I that's when

375
00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: I started to realize, Wow, how am I looking at people?

376
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,680
Speaker 2: Was I looking at their skin color? Was I looking

377
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 2: at where they lived? Was I looking at what actions

378
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: they were doing? And never knew anything about the person?

379
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: It created this constant conflict, right, because that would be

380
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: like I already know who you are. I know who

381
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,360
Speaker 2: you are based on all these factors profiling. Basically, they're

382
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 2: saying the same thing back to me, I know everything

383
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: about you, and we're and this is creating fear between

384
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 2: us and conflict and we're just going to fight it out.

385
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 2: And then I was thinking, I started really asking God,

386
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,840
Speaker 2: is there a way to talk to people that gets

387
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 2: past that fast? How do I how do I communicate

388
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: to a person, you know, as an employee of the

389
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: police department and all that that that that don't represent that,

390
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: but more the Kingdom of God? Actually? Then how would

391
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: I talk to the person deeper than the level of

392
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: how we're judging each other, which is which I didn't

393
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: know what to call it at the time, identity, But

394
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: then I would be then my question learn is like

395
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 2: how do I just talk to the real them from

396
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,679
Speaker 2: the real me? That's kind of how I thought about it.

397
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: And then as I learned how to do that, and

398
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 2: a lot of it was asking God, what would you

399
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: say right now, Abiding Lord, what would you say to

400
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: this person right now? You've been through all this, What

401
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,680
Speaker 2: would you say to this person right now, and why

402
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: are they afraid? What should I understand? Why am I

403
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 2: afraid right now? And then just practicing listening to God

404
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 2: communicate ideas and words to me about it and then

405
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 2: using them. That's when I started to realize Jesus is

406
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,239
Speaker 2: really only Jesus is not talking to the presentation that

407
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 2: the person is putting out, the facade they're building. He's

408
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 2: speaking right through all of that, into the depth of

409
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 2: who they are, even their ethnicity, even their gender, all

410
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: of it. He's going right past all of it to

411
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: just talk to the heart of the real person and

412
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 2: that and when he touches that real person and they

413
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 2: speak back to him, that's when he moves into transformation

414
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 2: with that. So my question was, how can how do

415
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 2: I do that? And that's how I, you know, kind

416
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 2: of got onto the topic of well, what's who's the

417
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 2: real then? Who's the real me?

418
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: Right?

419
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 2: Identity?

420
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,199
Speaker 1: You mentioned this earlier, but the quote, and I have

421
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: it in front of me from the book is you

422
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: say that true identity is received from God in community,

423
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 1: through the intuitive mind and prayer. I want to ask

424
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: you about the community part. You know, why is identity

425
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: our identity statements, which by the way you walk people through, right,

426
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 1: and so my identity statement is bold, courageous, decisive, vulnerable,

427
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: storyteller great and and so you walk people through that.

428
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 1: But that the community aspect is interesting. Why is our

429
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 1: true identity received in community?

430
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so one is okay. So one is the example

431
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: of Jesus. I mean, that's kind of where we started.

432
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,199
Speaker 2: So Jesus is in the line of baptism, he gets baptized.

433
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: He's not doing it in secret, you know, he's not

434
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: hidden away in a monastery figuring this stuff out. He's

435
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 2: right out in front of all of us, gets baptized.

436
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: Heaven's open up, and God says, this is my son

437
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 2: in whom I'm well policed. So there's Jesus receiving identity.

438
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,959
Speaker 2: So he's where's he doing it. He's doing it in community.

439
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 2: He's receiving it from God in community. And so why community,

440
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: Because your identity is your gift to the world. So

441
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 2: your identity is not a private little thing for you

442
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: to have alone as an individual. Your identity is your

443
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: gift to the world. And so so like back in

444
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: Hebrew culture, really back in any any culture, ancient culture

445
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 2: especially but probably even before, like the Age of industrialization.

446
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 2: But all communities had a naming ceremony, all of them

447
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: across the world, and we slowly got rid of them

448
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: because family's broken up and you know, all of that,

449
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 2: factories and all that. Only probably the Jews still have

450
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 2: it in a bar mitzvah and about mitzvah, that's what

451
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: it is. It's a naming ceremonies. You go into the community,

452
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 2: stand up in the community, you quote your tora a portion,

453
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 2: and the community names you. And the reason, just like

454
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: a Native American tribe would name your name, is this,

455
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 2: this is your place in the community, so that you

456
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 2: will never think you're alone. This is your place in

457
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 2: the community that all of us will never wonder who

458
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 2: you are and to show you, here's your value and

459
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: this is what you bring to the community. Like that,

460
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: so that there so that so that you're never isolated,

461
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: separate and alone in a separation worldview, like no, I

462
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 2: know am part of this community. This community has named me.

463
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 2: They affirm my identity. I give my identities a gift

464
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 2: back to the community, Like that's what. So you're part

465
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: of a body. If if if if my identity is

466
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 2: a gift to the world, then that means if I'm

467
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: outside community, that gift has nowhere to go. I'm doing,

468
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 2: I don't have it anywhere to give. And then that's

469
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: why Paul's talking about summer hand, summer eyes, summer feet,

470
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 2: like we have to work as a body. That's why

471
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: God when he gives identity or when he builds identity

472
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 2: in us, it's it's to be a gift to the community.

473
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 2: And other people's identity is a gift to me. And

474
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 2: I'm telling you when you're in a community like that,

475
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: or a team at work, or a squad in the

476
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: police department that understands this, it's so beautiful and it

477
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 2: protects against competition and division in the community because my

478
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 2: identity doesn't compete against any other identities because I'm the

479
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: only identity, right, so I don't don't I don't want

480
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 2: to be like anyone else and they can't bring what

481
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: I can bring. So I already know the value I bring.

482
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: I don't have to compete with anyone else. But my

483
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 2: identity alone isn't going to do it, so I need

484
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 2: the other identities. So it just all of it builds community.

485
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: It's the cohesion in the community is like I'm an

486
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 2: eyeball I need a face to be in, I need

487
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: a head, you know all of that. Yeah, and we don't.

488
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 2: We don't have that, and that's why we're so divided

489
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: in everything and fractured.

490
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: So I want to go to then the last part

491
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: of that right where you say three community an intuitive

492
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: prayer right now. I just recently graduated seminary and I

493
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 1: had a you know, I had a seminary professor who

494
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: and I didn't agree with this, but but basically his

495
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: his stance was, well, the Lord really only speaks to

496
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: you through the scriptures, the prophets what they've said, right.

497
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: And yet I'm like, well, man, I'm journaling stuff. You know,

498
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: you talked about the questions Jamie. The two questions that

499
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 1: I ask regularly of the Lord are what do you

500
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: want me to know today? And what do you want

501
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: me to do today?

502
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 2: Right?

503
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: And I can tell you he's not telling me to

504
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: send an email to X person through scripture, right, But

505
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: I know that he's he's saying, hey, you need to

506
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: send an email to this person. You need to meet

507
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: with this person. Right, So, how do we hear from

508
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: the Lord and how do we know that what we're

509
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: hearing when he's when I when I'm like, man, that

510
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: intuitive is telling me to do that? How do I

511
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: know that's from the Lord? We'll be right back after this.

512
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, I mean those are great questions. I am.

513
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: I'm always shocked although I was raised the same way.

514
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 2: You know, the word the Bible is it? I mean,

515
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 2: you know, if it's not in the Bible, you don't

516
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: need to know it, which is such a kind of

517
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 2: ridiculous statement, because how can that be right, That's what

518
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: I'm saying. It's not about in a non Christian Biblical

519
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: It's like what's true? Come on, what's real? What's true

520
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 2: in the world is obviously the Bible can't have all

521
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: information needed for every situation, so like it just doesn't.

522
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 2: So if I'm gonna if I'm if I want to

523
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: know what this, I've got a person that I'm dealing

524
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: with as a police officer, you know, and this is

525
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: the book that's coming out now. But when God's saying

526
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: I want you to de arrest this guy right now,

527
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 2: so this person and I won't tell the whole story,

528
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: you can read it. But if I'm a police officer

529
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: and I arrest a person that's committed to felonies in

530
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: my presence. So I'm arresting that person, I'm driving them

531
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 2: to you know, to the jail to process them, and

532
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: this idea comes in my mind to release them right now? Okay,

533
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 2: So first of all, how do I know that's God?

534
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: Like?

535
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: That's the question because my immediate response is forget it,

536
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: like that's the dumbest idea, right. So okay, but so

537
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: let's say, let's say I'm just going to go read

538
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: the Bible about it. Is God the kind of God

539
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: that just releases prisoners? Yes? He is? Actually does he

540
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 2: just set the captive free? Actually he does so Bible

541
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: page wise he does it. That's so I'm inside of scripture.

542
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: So that's a good question. Is this idea in violation

543
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: of anything scriptural? That I know? So that's a good question,

544
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 2: and it's a fair question, and you need to that's

545
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: the Bibles like those kind of guard rails, yeah, which

546
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: prevent us from doing things like when you you know,

547
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: is that something Jesus would really suggest? Come on? Which

548
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: is funny because I think Christians do a lot of

549
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: stuff that Jesus would never suggest, and they don't have

550
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: any problem doing it. Right, So, so so that's one

551
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: it is it is it. Is it in the guardrails

552
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 2: of scripture? Yes, it is, okay, So is it in

553
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 2: that situation? Is it violating the general orders of the

554
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: police department. I mean, I'll even be more strict than

555
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: just a scripture allow for it. And so the general

556
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: orders do allow for de arresting if circumstances changed during

557
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: the arrest or whatever, and so like even in the

558
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: even in the general orders, like I can say, yeah,

559
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 2: makes sense. So when a person the intuitive mind, again,

560
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: it's no human operates without the intuitive mind. No one does.

561
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: If I say to a group of second graders, listen,

562
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: I want you to close your eyes and think about

563
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: being at the beach. You're in the intuitive mind, right,

564
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 2: then that's what you're doing. You're intentionally moving them into

565
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: the intuitive to get beyond the constraints of the rational mind,

566
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 2: which is quite limited. That's all. And this is why

567
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: Jesus is telling the story. Once there was a guy

568
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: that had a son that wanted is inherited intuitive. He's

569
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: taken me in because it moves out of the amygdala,

570
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: the reptile brain that's only run by fear, guilt, and shame. Honestly,

571
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: we have to get out of that thinking in order

572
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: to be a co creator with God. So Einstein says,

573
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: you know, the the intuitive mind is the master and

574
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: the rational mind is the servant. But we have made

575
00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 2: the servant the master. So to any kind of metaphor, allegory, simile, picture,

576
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: symbol is all in the intuitive mind. That's that's where

577
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: it all is. To take away the intuitive mind, we

578
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 2: couldn't function. So again it's just like, it's not true.

579
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: All great ideas calmed and intuitive and are brought down

580
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: into the rational and they have to work in the

581
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: rational world. Yes, they can't just float around up there.

582
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: There are no value. So I'm driving down the road.

583
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: I've made this arrest in the intuitive mind up out

584
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: of the constraints of the rational I have this idea

585
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: de arrest the God. So then I go through this process.

586
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: Is where's that idea coming from. It's not coming from me.

587
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: I would never come up with that. That's a clue, right,

588
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 2: that's a clue. I just wouldn't have thought of that. Then,

589
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: you know, would Jesus do this, Yes he would. The

590
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 2: scripture allow for it, yes it would. Does the general

591
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: orders allow for it, Yes, it does allow for it.

592
00:33:55,000 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: So then the next question, does is this idea create fear,

593
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: guilt or shame? Not fear like not fear like I'm

594
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 2: you know, I feel bad, I feel not negative fear.

595
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 2: Does it is it? Is it using fear to motivate

596
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 2: or guilt or shame. No, it's like a crazy idea

597
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 2: And the thing that scares me about it is the

598
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: ramifications of it. But it doesn't put me in fear

599
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: like something's wrong with me, like that kind of fear. Yeah,

600
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: so it's not a negative. And then on hand fear right,

601
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: the unhealthy fear. And then in my career career wise

602
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: like does it make I ask people all the time? Okay,

603
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: you have you know you're meditating on God. By the way,

604
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: in a human being, there's no innovation without contemplation first.

605
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 2: No human has ever been innovative without contemplation first, which

606
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 2: is the intuitive mine. Never has happened in the history

607
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 2: of humanity. Read The Act of Creation by Costler, this

608
00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: whole book on it's this thick on every act creation,

609
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 2: from joke writing to Newtonian physics to and every one

610
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: of them begins in the intuitive mind, all of them,

611
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: because otherwise you're just going to build on what you

612
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: is rational you'll never go out like what's gravity? We

613
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 2: don't know, but the intuitive mind like that, so you

614
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 2: have to go out there. So but then when it happens,

615
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: you know, when Newton's like, hey, maybe maybe Aristotle's theory

616
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: of gravity is incorrect, not fully incorrect, but mostly incorrect.

617
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 2: Then he has he has this idea about, Wow, that's

618
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: gravity is probably something bigger. He's he's in uncharted territory.

619
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: But then he has to bring it down and demonstrate it.

620
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: That's the rational mind, right, It's kind of like left

621
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: brain right burn. So when a person's you know, I

622
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: had an idea from God or I think God spoke

623
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: to me, I'm like, tell me about it? Does a

624
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: violate scripture?

625
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: No?

626
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 2: That is it in the confines of like true? What

627
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: is it like true? Does it encourage you? Does it

628
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: bring you? What? Does it create joy in you? Is it?

629
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: Does it move you towards the gifts of the spirit,

630
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: the fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, kind?

631
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 2: Is that is that the character of what the idea is?

632
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: And then does it does it even make sense to you?

633
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 2: That it doesn't have to make perfect sense, but does

634
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 2: it make sense? I always ask people that like, if

635
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: you thought about it, you may have it may scare you,

636
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 2: it may seem impossible, but if it worked, doesn't make sense.

637
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: Like if God's telling the Israelites, you know, send the

638
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,919
Speaker 2: musicians in, tell them to walk around seven times blow,

639
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 2: like does that make sense? Well? Like, well, if the

640
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 2: walls fall down, it makes It's like makes incredible sense. Right,

641
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 2: So it's like it does move us towards the direction

642
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: we're kind of going. But we would have never thought

643
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: of this in a million years. That's right. That's that's

644
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: innovation that comes from how did you come up with

645
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: that idea? So so I think about if I let

646
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 2: this guy go, like what could happen? I could get

647
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: fired and imprisoned. Yes, that's one possible outcome. However, what

648
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: what if I let him go? And it's like this

649
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 2: like le Masera, Like when in that beautiful story by

650
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 2: Victor Hugo you release, I mean it blesses a zillion people,

651
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 2: Like what if that? See what it could be one

652
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: of two? Why is it always a negative? Why it

653
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: is always self protect and self promote? What if this

654
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 2: would just bless the heck out of this guy and

655
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: then he becomes a blessing all over the place, and so,

656
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: so then I start thinking that way, and then I

657
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 2: then the question comes up in my mind, like why

658
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 2: wouldn't I do it? Because I would want to protect

659
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: my career, because I would want to protect my family. Well,

660
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 2: that's just self protection and self promotion. That's counter to

661
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: abiding in Christ. And what do you want me to know?

662
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 2: What do you want me to do? And obedience to

663
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 2: hear in response, I'm actually so I So then the

664
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: thought comes to me, is this guy behind you less

665
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 2: important than your job? What's more important? Your job or him?

666
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: Now that's the tough question, right are you gonna? The

667
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: Lord saying to me, are you gonna is following me

668
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 2: and and his and concern for him greater than you

669
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: and protecting your police career? And that's that was the

670
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 2: That was the yes or no from God. You mean

671
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: you could keep him in your car and protect your

672
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: career and that's the way that's going to go. Or

673
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: you could listen to me release and watch what would happen?

674
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 1: Wow?

675
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 2: Right? And so then once one is faith right? Not

676
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: faith like stupid? Faith Like yeah, faith is the substance

677
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 2: of things you hope for the evidence of things. You

678
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 2: don't see what do you hope for in your police

679
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,440
Speaker 2: career that it would you know, that I would be

680
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 2: kingdom and that God would take it, you know and

681
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 2: expand it. And then he's like, okay, let the guy go.

682
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: Then if that's what you if that's if you want

683
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: to fight, call me and watch what I could do

684
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 2: with this. You need to hear me in these times

685
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: when it's just me and you and him, let him go,

686
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:11,879
Speaker 2: release him and trust me. And so all of that's

687
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: a very rational thinking, right from an idea that dropped

688
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: out of the intuitive mind. But once it's dropped, it's like, okay, practically,

689
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: what are we going to do? So I say to

690
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: the guy, like I pulled over and he was concerned

691
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: if this is in the eighties, because he had assaulted

692
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: a police office, another police officer and I so when

693
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 2: I got out and pulled him out of the car,

694
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: he didn't want to get out. He was afraid to

695
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 2: get out. When I pulled him out to take the

696
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: restraints off of him, and I told him I was

697
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: releasing him, he thought I was gonna shoot him as

698
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,800
Speaker 2: a fleeing felon. He thought I was doing a setup

699
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: to release him. And then shoot him as a fleeing felon,

700
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 2: which was a you could do back in those days.

701
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: That's how corrupt our system, that's how harmful our system

702
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: is that you can't even set a guy free without

703
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 2: him be thinking he was being trapped. And so anyway

704
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: I ended up I released him and then you can

705
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: read the whole result of that. But I can tell

706
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 2: you it was the smartest thing I've ever done career wise,

707
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 2: was to let that guy go. Now, after all the

708
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: turmoil of why did I release him? And I got

709
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: in trouble for it and all that, but after it

710
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:32,799
Speaker 2: proved super smart, people came back to me, including the

711
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: State Department, who called me in and said, how in

712
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 2: the world did you know how to make that decision?

713
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 2: Because it was brilliant, but it was so risky. And

714
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 2: so it's by your fruit they know you right and

715
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: in that so when people say I just read the

716
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: Bible like it's not gonna it's way bigger and beautiful

717
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: than that. The Bible's guardrails on it. But that intuitive

718
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 2: mind is endless and limitless, where God will drop into

719
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: that beautiful and tuiteimle, but it will be in relation

720
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: to your identity too, right, Like I'm not going to

721
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: come up with the theory of gravity. But Newton's identity

722
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: and the whole way God built him would catch that thought.

723
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: Going through the intuitive he would because his identity is

724
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 2: looking for it. Mine was looking for how do you, like,

725
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: how would I make this vocation into really kingdom? So

726
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 2: I'm looking, I'm asking God, I'm abiding with him. He's

727
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: riding with me all the time, like how could I

728
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: impact people in a greater way? And then he's like,

729
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 2: after five years of being a cop, not the first year,

730
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: not the second year, you learn trust, learn trust, And

731
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: then he keeps upping it. And in the fifth year

732
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: he says, Okay, now you're ready cut this guy loose.

733
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: And then at that point in my career I was

734
00:41:55,640 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: ready to like wrestle through it and go, yeah, somehow

735
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 2: this is the right thing to do, and I did it.

736
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: The guy. The guy even told me when I was

737
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: releasing him, he said, why are you releasing me? And

738
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 2: I finally just said, I just think God's telling me

739
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 2: to let you go. And he said, I even think

740
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: that's a bad idea, That's what he said.

741
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: That is so great, And I think what you know

742
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: if you if you read Living Fearless, and I can't

743
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: wait to read this next book. But is you know

744
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 1: these type of things right paid off and not paid

745
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: off in that you became yeah, I mean you did.

746
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: You did win Police Officers of the Year. But they

747
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: started impacting the community, They started impacting people. People, are

748
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: you know, your your your your boss is calling you

749
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: the office? What why are things going like this? Why

750
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 1: what's going on?

751
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: You know?

752
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: And and it's funny, you know, Jamie. I I've taken

753
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: this book, I've taken this work and I turned it

754
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: into a nonprofit right and I'm like just starting it.

755
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 1: And I remember someone asked me early on, they said

756
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: why aren't you just like, why are you doing it

757
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: as a nonprofit? And I said, very simple, I said,

758
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: because in my abiding time gives me kind of chills.

759
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: In my abiding time. The Lord gave me a word,

760
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: a phrase, he said, give it away, and I said,

761
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: I don't. I still don't fully know what that means.

762
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: But I said, I'm not supposed to sell stuff now,

763
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't you know. And people, if you're listening to

764
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: this and you're like, well, you have a course now

765
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: that I have to buy, it's like, well, there is

766
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 1: a wisdom to having your buy in, right, but I

767
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: could tell you that that's not to make money, that's

768
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: to get your buy in. But he said give it away.

769
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay that that I filtered my decisions

770
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 1: through that word that he gave me. He said give

771
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: it away, and so I'm giving it away, right, And

772
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: it's just like I have so much peace about that.

773
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 1: I have so much peace. And I remember my wife

774
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: came to me because I wrote about it, and I

775
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: and I had been you can sign up for my

776
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 1: blog and you can become a pain member, and so

777
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: I turned I didn't turn that off, but I said, hey,

778
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm no longer going to be like doing you know,

779
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: two posts a week that are paid and four that aren't.

780
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: Like I may do a post here and there that's paid,

781
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 1: but really I'm just giving it away. And my wife

782
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: is like, are you sure you heard from the Lord

783
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: because you're in seminary and you're not making money, you know,

784
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: And I'm like, he told me to give it away,

785
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: and he's blessed that, right, And it's above anything that

786
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: I could of imagined at that point. Hard up for

787
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: money at that time, needed any source of income all

788
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: of that stuff, and he goes give it away, and

789
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: so I'm like, all right, I'm turning the paid aspect off.

790
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's hard. Yeah, And it's like, I mean, because

791
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 2: you're in a whole you know, all of us are

792
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: in a certain world system worldview that you know, we

793
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: also the topic of this book that I that I'm

794
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: referring to is is you know, we live in a

795
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 2: separation world. We're trained in it, we're raised in it,

796
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: which is really an empire worldview, and so much of

797
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: how we make decisions is about money and sell protection

798
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: and self promotion and you know how it does a

799
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: benefit to me and all of that stuff. And when

800
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: you go counter to that, it's just there's an immediate

801
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: kind of pushback against it from it, from it, not

802
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: just from everyone anyone. It's like, wow, that doesn't make

803
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: any sense. Why are you going to let that guy go?

804
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 2: Like that could ruin your career? And is that good

805
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: stewardship and all that stuff. But it's because we're just

806
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 2: inundated with this lie of the empire. And you know,

807
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: Jesus is of the Kingdom, he's not of the empire.

808
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,439
Speaker 2: And so yeah, it's a challenge. I like what you say.

809
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: You know, I want their buy in, and that's correct,

810
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: You're right about that. People what they put value into

811
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 2: they get value out of. You know, if you're throwing

812
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 2: around free stuff, we know that it doesn't impact people

813
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 2: that much. But to but to say I'm not charging

814
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: any one for this, or just the obedience factor in

815
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 2: what you're saying is great, Like we need to do

816
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 2: with the Lord. It fites us into yeah, yeah, despite

817
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: what the world thinks about it.

818
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 1: Or so before we get to your sobriety story, one

819
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: last question on identity, and I think it's it's really

820
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: the opposite side of the of the coin. If we

821
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: have true identity, we have false identity. And I think

822
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: one of the more mind blowing things that I took

823
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: from Living Fearless is that the devil is okay, actually

824
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: if you are living in partial identity, right, so we

825
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: may we're we're I'm on the I'm on the i'm

826
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 1: on the lookout for for false identities, right, and the

827
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: Devil's like, well, what if I can just get you

828
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 1: living in an aspect of your identity, then that's much

829
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 1: more devious, right, And I look back at my own

830
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: life bold, courageous, decisive, vulnerable storyteller? When was I actually

831
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: most miserable when I was living in New York City

832
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 1: starting the top fifty news site, working in the in

833
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 1: the in the news businesiness. Well, I'm a storyteller, right,

834
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: But what I did realize is there was a lot

835
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: more other adjectives that I hadn't seen yet, right, And

836
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, I'm a storyteller, and yet the seeds,

837
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: if you will, of my alcoholism were planted in that season, right,

838
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: So explain that aspect of not just false identity, But

839
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: why is it so successful? Why does the devil want

840
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: us living out of that partial identity?

841
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a fabulous question. I don't know if anyone's

842
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 2: ever asked me that question that way before, but it's

843
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 2: a great it's a great question. It's something to really consider.

844
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: So when you know, we would say that in our mother,

845
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 2: God knit us together in our mother's womb. When God

846
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 2: knit you together in your mother's womb, he gave identity.

847
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: Your identity has always been present. It's not like when

848
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: we pray with someone or they meet Jesus all of

849
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 2: a sudden this identity drops on them. It's what you've

850
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 2: been the whole time, like cure ker Guard said, with

851
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 2: God's help on becoming who I am. That's right, you

852
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 2: have that identity. It's in you. And so when when

853
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 2: you in an interaction with Jesus or whatever, discover like, hey,

854
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,919
Speaker 2: I'm a storyteller, he's telling you who you've always been.

855
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: You've so you've been capable of that all along, right, Yeah,

856
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 2: and so however, so it's like when did Moses become

857
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,239
Speaker 2: a deliverer of people? That he never was, not a

858
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 2: deliverer of people, Oh but he had. But the way

859
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: he delivered people before he met God in the burning

860
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 2: Bush was by delivering the way the empire delivers. You

861
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 2: kill him, you kill the oppressor. So when he kills

862
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 2: the task master, he's doing what's in his heart as

863
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: a delivery. He doesn't want people to be oppressed. Right,

864
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: He can't help because if you read through his life,

865
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: he's born, his his actual birth is him being delivered,

866
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 2: not physically delivered by midwives who determined that God was

867
00:48:54,160 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 2: greater than Pharaoh. They were delivering their deliverer. Midwives. They're

868
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: the real talk about people that could hear from God,

869
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 2: those women and so and then his parents instead of

870
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 2: you know, having him killed, put him out in the river,

871
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 2: and all that all happens. So when as Moses is

872
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: growing up, he knows that he himself was delivered a pharaoh.

873
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 2: He knows that. But but and he's raised in the empire,

874
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: and he's trained in the empire, but he never forgets

875
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,440
Speaker 2: he's Hebrew. And he doesn't take sin for a season

876
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 2: to forget who he is. He remembers his hebrew ness,

877
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: and he knows deep inside that he's in opposition to

878
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: people being oppressed. But the only way he knows how

879
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: to fight it is the way the empire would fight it.

880
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 2: And so imagine you're a storyteller, and so how do

881
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: you tell story What do you use storytelling for? What

882
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: the empire would use storytelling for me? Are my good

883
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: for my en? It? It's like that that false use

884
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 2: of the true identity really hurts us, Yeah, because we

885
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 2: know it's like wow, I know I can do that,

886
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: but man doing it doesn't it's sort of empty or

887
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: it's even destructive like that. So like I'm a militant

888
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,439
Speaker 2: peacemaker the way I knew a militant peacemaker means I

889
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 2: hate conflict. I hate it. But if I spend my

890
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 2: life avoiding conflict, it hurts me because to be to

891
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: be a militant if God made me to be attracted

892
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 2: to conflict and to hate it at the same time,

893
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: because if I don't hate it, I'll figure out how

894
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: to compensate for. But if I hate it, I want

895
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,440
Speaker 2: to see it done away with. But to be have

896
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:36,320
Speaker 2: it done away with, I have to have a desire

897
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: inside myself to be in conflict. So if I don't

898
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 2: go to the conflict as a peacemaker, then I get

899
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: in the conflict and I'm part of the conflict, which

900
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 2: is destructive to me, which is what I did, which

901
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: is how I did. And so you're right. Until I

902
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: meet Jesus in this way, he's like, look, this is

903
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 2: who you've always been. And you're like, I know, I

904
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 2: kind of know that. However, you're doing it without me, Yes,

905
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: like you're trying to is not that true identity apart

906
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 2: from abiding in me, and you can't do it, can't

907
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,399
Speaker 2: be done yes, only hurt.

908
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: Yes, And so I and I love that, right, Like

909
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: when you're walking us through how to find that identity statement,

910
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,279
Speaker 1: you know, I think nary a truer thing has been

911
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: spoken when you're like, you probably know you probably have

912
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 1: an inkling already, right, and and it's like, yeah, I do.

913
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 1: I do have an inklean And so that's why even

914
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: when I picked up your book, I'm like, well, I

915
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: know I'm a storyteller. What what are you gonna tell me?

916
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:32,319
Speaker 2: You know?

917
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: And then it was just like whoa, No, there was

918
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: so much more to that, right, And I think there

919
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: are so many people even just listening to this, like

920
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,800
Speaker 1: well I kind of know, you know, and I'm walking

921
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 1: in that. And what I would encourage them is to say,

922
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: you don't know what you're missing. You don't know what

923
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: you're missing because you are only walking in one simple

924
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 1: aspect of it, and it's actually being more destructive to you.

925
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, tell people like, look, you know you're at operating

926
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: in ten percent of who you are and you're like

927
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 2: not doing you're doing actually fairly well, what if you

928
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: were seventy five percent of who you were? To do that?

929
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: You need to know Christ Like that's the beauty of

930
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 2: the good News. It's like, we're not taking you into

931
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 2: something awful, We're taking God is inviting you into something

932
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: that the very depth of who you are is longing

933
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: to be and so a real You know, the beauty

934
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: of knowing Christ is to love what He did when

935
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 2: he made you, to believe about yourself what He's always

936
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 2: believed about you. This is righteousness, right, Like you don't

937
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: believe about yourself what God believes about you. If you

938
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 2: believed about yourself what God believed about you, would abide,

939
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: You would abide. Yeah, yes, that's the bed at all.

940
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: Okay, I said that was the last question on identity.

941
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to sneak in one more before we get

942
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: to your story, and that is again I brought up

943
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: in the beginning that you came out with leaving Fearless.

944
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 1: Then you have the Guided Journal, and you know what

945
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,239
Speaker 1: is it? Forty three on forty three pages into the

946
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 1: Guided Journal you say, well, my identity is militant peacemaker.

947
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: We know that, right, I said to the driver. And

948
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,439
Speaker 1: then you have this parenthetical that threw me. You said

949
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 1: today I would identify as an untire of knots, which

950
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: you introduced in the introduction an example of how God

951
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: will help us to understand our identity to ever deepening

952
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 1: degrees as we continue to grow and mature. So a

953
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: you're not saying that your identity has changed, You're saying

954
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:38,160
Speaker 1: it has grown and matured. Can you explain that difference

955
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: between Well, someone might be like, well, but now I'm

956
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,760
Speaker 1: not feeling it feels something different. But explain that growth

957
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: and maturity.

958
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's two ways to think about it. One

959
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: is like, is like taking You're taking a general ed

960
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:56,399
Speaker 2: class and you get this sort of general ed here's

961
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 2: what your identity is. It's a general thing, and typically

962
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: it'll speak against the deepest lie you believe about yourself.

963
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 2: This is just our experience in praying with people. So

964
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: if even to the point where I'll be praying with

965
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 2: someone and you know, asking a lord, Lord, what do

966
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: you want them to know about who they are? And

967
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 2: God says something too like you're Like for dawna my wife,

968
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 2: it was like, you're you're my beautiful daughter. Like that's

969
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: like a broad statement, but it meant the world to

970
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:30,000
Speaker 2: her to be called beautiful and daughter. What he's he

971
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: speaking about? I don't I don't like the way I look,

972
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 2: and I don't I don't have emotional contact with my parents.

973
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 2: So for him to call her beautiful and daughter is like, Wow,

974
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 2: we're going to be exploring the glory of that for

975
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 2: a while, once that's established, or like for a lot

976
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 2: of men, it's like you're you're my beloved son, I'm

977
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 2: proud of you. Just statements like that, because if you

978
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: don't know that you're a beloved you're not going to

979
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: go any deeper into the identity journey. You have to

980
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: know he loves you and he's proud of you. You

981
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: have to know that, because if he's disappointed in you

982
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 2: and mad at you, you're not going to keep opening up.

983
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 2: That's why people when they pray they self protect against God.

984
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,800
Speaker 2: That's what they're doing because they're afraid God's disappointed in them.

985
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: We did this thing at a Christian school high school,

986
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 2: and I asked the kids, you know, four hundred of them,

987
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: raise your hand if you believe God's disappointed in you.

988
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 2: They all raise their hands. Wow, It's like, did God

989
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: tell you he was disappointed in you? Or did someone

990
00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 2: tell you God's disappointed in you? But once once a

991
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 2: person thinks another person is disappointed in him, that's not

992
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 2: going to be a good relationship. So when you're coming

993
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: to the Lord first an identity, pretty much what he's

994
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 2: going to deal with is what is the lie, the

995
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 2: deep lie you believe about yourself. And so for me

996
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 2: it was like that I'm not brave, that I'm not courageous,

997
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,359
Speaker 2: and so he said, no, you're my militant peace maker.

998
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 2: So militant to me meant not like violent, but like

999
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: like you're not afraid to go into it. You're not

1000
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,239
Speaker 2: afraid because I felt fearful all the time part of

1001
00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 2: my addiction, and you're not the It's not the conflict

1002
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: you want, it's peace that you want because I grew

1003
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 2: up in a lot of conflict, And so that those

1004
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: first identities are like you're taking general ad and then

1005
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 2: as you proceed it gets more and more specific, like

1006
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 2: you're a storyteller. Yeah, but there's lots of storytellers right now.

1007
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 2: Let's tell Lord, what do you want me to What

1008
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 2: do you want me to know about storytelling? And I

1009
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 2: and I'm guessing as you pursue it, it's like it's

1010
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 2: like you're a cover band, because that's how you start,

1011
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 2: and you could be a cover band the rest of

1012
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 2: your life. You could be and be really good at it,

1013
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 2: or you could keep going until you discover your own

1014
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 2: unique voice. And then when you sing in that voice,

1015
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: everyone's like, oh, we know who that is. That's so

1016
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: and so, because you've become very unique and clear in

1017
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,800
Speaker 2: who you are, right and so that so that's the journey.

1018
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 2: And we're like like a diamond. Your identity is like

1019
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 2: a diamond and when you turn it, it has these

1020
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 2: different facets to it. You're like, the depth of who

1021
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 2: you are so unbelievable. And you'll be in situations and

1022
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: you'll say like, lord, I'm not able to do this,

1023
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 2: and he's saying yeah, because you don't know who you

1024
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 2: are fully who you are. There's a part of you,

1025
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 2: a piece of you that you don't even know yet,

1026
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 2: and so it's it's it's the same identity, but you

1027
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 2: start to understand the complexity of your identity and the

1028
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 2: beauty of it. It's like looking at a tree and going,

1029
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: what's the identity? That's a tree? But then yeah, but

1030
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 2: there's a branch, and then if I and there's the bark,

1031
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 2: and then you keep the deeper you go into the tree,

1032
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 2: the more complex is it still a tree? Oh yeah,

1033
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 2: but now there's now there's all these all the way

1034
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: down to the cellular level is all identities. So that's

1035
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 2: how you are. I'm telling you. You'll stand and look

1036
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 2: in the mirror. I'm sixty six and go, I didn't.

1037
00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 2: So I'm so great for what you did when you

1038
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,960
Speaker 2: did this, like the work, the beauty, the love that

1039
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 2: you put in this. And then you begin to have

1040
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 2: a right view of yourself. Yeah, a right of It's

1041
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 2: like that is so beautiful, and yet it's only this.

1042
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 2: And if I have this beauty with your beauty and

1043
00:58:18,160 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 2: this beauty and this beauty, wow, now you have a

1044
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:26,959
Speaker 2: body and you you can't I can't do I don't

1045
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 2: have your identity, and and I don't want it because

1046
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 2: my identity next to your identity is what makes God

1047
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: like yeah, there you go.

1048
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 1: That's that's why in my book I wrote a section

1049
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 1: that said stop trying to claim someone else's identity, right,

1050
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 1: like in how many of us try to do that? Like, well,

1051
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 1: you see that person on social media? I want that,

1052
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 1: and I will say that, you know. I read The

1053
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: Guide a journal while I was writing Confessions of a

1054
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: Christian Alcoholic, and I had to I had to change

1055
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: aspects of it because I had my identities in there,

1056
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: and I was like, wait, I have permission to go deeper.

1057
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: And then that's when the vulnerable aspect came in right,

1058
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: So I had bold, courageous, decisive storyteller in there. And

1059
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: then the Lord was like, and it's vulnerable and to

1060
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: your point, man, I'm going to use that right cover

1061
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: band versus now finding my own voice.

1062
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 2: Right.

1063
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: How many people have said to me you have this

1064
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: level of vulnerability right, and I'm like, man, I still

1065
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: have a long way to go, right, but it's like, yes, that,

1066
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 1: thank you Jesus. Okay, So now I want to get

1067
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: to the to the part about your own sobriety story

1068
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: that I didn't even know existed until we started talking

1069
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: a little bit offline. And wow, but so you and

1070
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: I said, don't tell me, don't tell me, let's save

1071
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: it for the podcast. But you said, you have been

1072
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: sober for twelve years and then they hit rock bottom

1073
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:54,000
Speaker 1: in uh kuwait. I would love to hear that story.

1074
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 2: Tell us that story.

1075
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

1076
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, So, like I have a counter on

1077
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 2: my phone, a day counter of sobriety on my phone,

1078
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I'm like twelve years and six months

1079
01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 2: something like that, down to the hour I pay. I

1080
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 2: pay attention to it a lot. I'm so grateful for it.

1081
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, so mine. You know, I grew up in

1082
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:25,360
Speaker 2: a in a my mom was extremely religious, very legalistic,

1083
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 2: a legalistic nothing against my mom. My mom was an

1084
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 2: amazing woman. She loved us. She's with Jesus now. However,

1085
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 2: that's the work. She grew up in sto where we

1086
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 2: grew up in. You know, no no rock music, none

1087
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 2: of that stuff. And and just again it's not so

1088
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:44,360
Speaker 2: much what she said, it's just a perception as a

1089
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 2: kid I have grown up is like I could just

1090
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 2: never match up to this purity level. You know, I

1091
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 2: just couldn't do it. And I always felt guilty. I

1092
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 2: always felt embarrassed that I had impure thoughts, and you know,

1093
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: my heart was desperately wicked and all this and I

1094
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: and so I got saved, you know every week, and

1095
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 2: all of that. Just couldn't get clear of the guilt, fear,

1096
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 2: shame thing. And when I was fifteen, I was out

1097
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 2: with some friends of mine and one of them handed

1098
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 2: me a bottlest of you know, some cheap wine or something,

1099
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 2: and I took I took like a big gulp of it,

1100
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 2: and for the first time in my life, I felt

1101
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 2: guilt free, absolutely guilt free, shame is gone. Guilt is

1102
01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:28,919
Speaker 2: it's all gone. And one hit like that and I

1103
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:34,479
Speaker 2: and then I knew at fifteen, like, okay, nothing God

1104
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 2: has never affected me like this. Church has never touched

1105
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: me like this. And I didn't have to do anything

1106
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 2: like it just worked. And I knew it would work

1107
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 2: every single time. And I was like, that was it.

1108
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 2: I was in, you know, and it wasn't bad. It

1109
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 2: wasn't it just was it didn't matter because once I

1110
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 2: you know, once you take you know, drink, it's like

1111
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter anyway, it's going to be gone. And

1112
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 2: so fifteens really kind of when I started into it,

1113
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 2: and then because I wanted to be a cop and

1114
01:02:07,080 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 2: all that, I just I just like, you know, learned

1115
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 2: how to do it so I could function right like

1116
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 2: a functional alcoholic. But over years, you you can't maintain it,

1117
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,480
Speaker 2: like it just gets harder and harder and worse and worse.

1118
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 2: And every time I got promoted or you know, got

1119
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 2: moved into newer situations that were higher risk, it was

1120
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 2: easier just to depend on that to like you know,

1121
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 2: cut that take the edge off the fear level or

1122
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 2: the conflict level for years years and so you know,

1123
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: there were times like my Donna, would you know, challenge

1124
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,840
Speaker 2: me on it or your cry, but it was like

1125
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 2: too much a part of my life, Like it was

1126
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 2: too much part of my identity, right, that's the problem

1127
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 2: comes part. And so I remember times even you know,

1128
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 2: being intoxicated or whatever and knowing that the Lord was

1129
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 2: right next to me. I mean there were moments when

1130
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 2: I like knew he was right next to me, and

1131
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 2: he was saying to me, let me know, when you

1132
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 2: want to be done this, just you say the word

1133
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:18,040
Speaker 2: and we'll be done this. And I was I was

1134
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 2: too at that point. You're too afraid to not have it. Yep, right,

1135
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 2: it's too frightening to not have that, you know that

1136
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 2: crutch or and so yeah, just a year after year

1137
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 2: and and you know, maintain it pretty good, you know.

1138
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 2: But I was good at my job and also I

1139
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 2: didn't people didn't bug me too much about it, but

1140
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 2: it but it got, you know, it got to be

1141
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 2: too much and I would, you know, get get out

1142
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 2: of control and couldn't remember things and all that. And

1143
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 2: so we were we were in working in the Middle East,

1144
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 2: and we were in Kuwait, and uh, it was pretty

1145
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 2: rough in those days. And and we were going to

1146
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 2: do this project in Kuwait. We'd been working in the

1147
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 2: Middle East for a while at that point. And this

1148
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 2: friend of mine, this great Canadian friend of mine that

1149
01:04:06,440 --> 01:04:08,919
Speaker 2: I was working with, he said, because we were gonna

1150
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:10,479
Speaker 2: do a pretty risky we're going to try a pretty

1151
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: whisky thing. And he said, like, there's a lady here

1152
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 2: who's who prays, who's she's a prayer and I want

1153
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 2: her just to come in and pray over each of

1154
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 2: us before we get into this. And you know, I

1155
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 2: was a believer and he was a believer, and I said, okay, whatever,

1156
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 2: and Donna was with me, and we were in a

1157
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:29,439
Speaker 2: little circle. This lady comes in. She's was Indian from

1158
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 2: India and she so she spoke Hindi, so she she

1159
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 2: she's real short, and she walked around the circle and

1160
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: she'd put her thumb on the forehead of whoever she

1161
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 2: was praying for. I'm like, okay, whatever, let's just get

1162
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 2: this over with. And she comes around and she puts

1163
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 2: her thumb on my forehead and right when she touches

1164
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 2: me and she I can't understand what she's saying praying,

1165
01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 2: But the Lord says to me, you're afraid of heights.

1166
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 2: You're afraid of heights, aren't you. And I'm like, yeah,

1167
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 2: I'm afraid of I've been afraid of heights my whole

1168
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,840
Speaker 2: life because my dad to make us brave, would do

1169
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 2: the make us do these things to make us brave,

1170
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 2: and one of them was he made us climb this

1171
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 2: lighthouse one time when we were really young, you know,

1172
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 2: up the spiral thing. Terrifying, but I was more terrified

1173
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 2: to him than so climbing up that thing and then

1174
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 2: up ladders to the top, and I was just I'm

1175
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 2: never until that point, I'm so terrified of heights. And

1176
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 2: so he says, God, this thought comes to me, you're

1177
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 2: afraid of heights. Yes, I'm afraid of heights. You're actually

1178
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 2: not afraid of heights. What you're afraid of is falling.

1179
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: That's the real fear. You're afraid of falling. And I'm like, whatever, okay, yeah,

1180
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 2: But then it kind of struck me, like, like what

1181
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 2: that meant. It's like every time I would get to

1182
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 2: a certain level in my career, I would kind of

1183
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 2: self destruct a bit like that, and so that would happen,

1184
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 2: and then I still, yeah, it's like and I would

1185
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:57,680
Speaker 2: so why am I afraid to go as high as

1186
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 2: the Lord wants to take me vocationally whatever, and and

1187
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 2: so it was because I was afraid I was going to,

1188
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:07,920
Speaker 2: you know, somew sooner, or that I was going to

1189
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,840
Speaker 2: fall because of this right come back to Earth. I

1190
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 2: knew it was going to happen, and I so I

1191
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:16,000
Speaker 2: could had to. I had to like measure what I did.

1192
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:19,240
Speaker 2: I couldn't go all out for what maybe God would

1193
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 2: want me to do because I was too afraid of

1194
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 2: exposure and falling. And so, yeah, I'm afraid of falling.

1195
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 2: And so the Lord said to me, he said, uh,

1196
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 2: I'm gonna I'm going to push you off a cliff

1197
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 2: just to prove something to you, but I'm not going

1198
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,280
Speaker 2: to do it unless you ask me. So I want

1199
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 2: you to ask me to push you off a cliff.

1200
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 2: And I knew it was like, okay, I have an

1201
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 2: option here. And so I turned to Donna and I said, Hey,

1202
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:48,440
Speaker 2: I feel like the Lord wants to push me off

1203
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 2: a cliff. Are you will you stay with me if

1204
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 2: he does whatever that means? And she said, I've been

1205
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 2: praying for him to push you off a cliff for

1206
01:06:56,360 --> 01:07:02,200
Speaker 2: a long long time, so yes, And so I said, okay, lord,

1207
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 2: I'm willing to be pushed off a clip, and he did.

1208
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 2: And so we were working this big project in the

1209
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 2: Middle East and the whole thing blew up, and not

1210
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 2: because of the alcohol that was a contributing factor, but

1211
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 2: just the whole thing. It was incredibly destructive, and we

1212
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 2: got in huge trouble and expelled and arrested and all

1213
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 2: this kind of stuff lost, everything got black balled in

1214
01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 2: my vocation because of it, and it just the whole

1215
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 2: thing fell apart and we ended up alone back in

1216
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 2: the States, completely broke. I mean, it just took everything

1217
01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 2: we had. It ruined us a huge thirty million dollar deal.

1218
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 2: We were working all of it, and it was like

1219
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 2: I didn't get back, we didn't get black balled because

1220
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 2: of anything I did wrong, just because it's like, man,

1221
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 2: these guys, these guys, they're not going to be able

1222
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 2: to pull off what they say they're going So really

1223
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 2: everything I was most afraid of happened right. And so

1224
01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 2: we end up back at home and some really good

1225
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,439
Speaker 2: guys came to me and said, you know, listen, let's

1226
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 2: take this opportunity to like get free of alcohol. Really

1227
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,880
Speaker 2: good people really that loved me. I didn't like it

1228
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,759
Speaker 2: actually when they said it, But so.

1229
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 1: They would you call it an intervention or no, God,

1230
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: yeah I.

1231
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 2: Was, but they were. They were acting as a result

1232
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 2: of this calamity, right. So I wouldn't have listened to

1233
01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 2: him beforehand, No way I would have. I would have

1234
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,800
Speaker 2: thought them junior to me professionally and every and all

1235
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:46,280
Speaker 2: and so, but they came and said, let's you know,

1236
01:08:46,320 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 2: we're gonna we want to step in and help you.

1237
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you're like out of commission right now anyway,

1238
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:55,280
Speaker 2: so why don't let's let's do some rehab here. So

1239
01:08:55,439 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 2: we took a year, men, it took a year, and

1240
01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:05,160
Speaker 2: we we lived in this little, terrible little efficiency. I

1241
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 2: mean we went from really high up we I mean,

1242
01:09:07,280 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 2: we felt a long way into this one little, one

1243
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 2: room efficiency. And I just started, you know, going to

1244
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 2: meetings every all day, you know, every day, and just

1245
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 2: on my own, you know, outpatient kind of thing, a

1246
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:27,360
Speaker 2: a kind of thing. And and and I spent yeah,

1247
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 2: a year in that, just get getting sober. And and

1248
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 2: it was it was probably harder for Donna than it

1249
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 2: was for me. You know, sometimes it's harder on your

1250
01:09:39,760 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 2: partner than it is on you. But you know, dealing

1251
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:44,719
Speaker 2: with all the shame and the you know, the loss

1252
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 2: of position and all that stuff that it just got

1253
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 2: all got stripped away. And what I found, what I

1254
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 2: discovered in that time, and this is what the Lord

1255
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 2: wanted to show me, is that if I do fall,

1256
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 2: he can catch me. Right. He was taking away my

1257
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:03,599
Speaker 2: fear of heights because it was a fear of falling

1258
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:05,439
Speaker 2: because I didn't believe if I felt that he could

1259
01:10:05,479 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 2: catch me.

1260
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 1: And you're using the alcohol as you're pushing when you.

1261
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:17,360
Speaker 2: In the rehab falling, not in that process. No, right,

1262
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 2: when when it fell apart, when those guys came oh yeah,

1263
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 2: oh yeah, oh what I was doing. What I was

1264
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 2: doing was it was interesting as I look back on it,

1265
01:10:27,080 --> 01:10:29,760
Speaker 2: is the Lord was like inviting me up. You know,

1266
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:31,439
Speaker 2: he was like, say let's go. Let's because when you're

1267
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 2: walking with Jesus, he's never going to let you stay

1268
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 2: at the same level. Never. I mean, you have to

1269
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,719
Speaker 2: tell him I'm not going any higher and he'll stop.

1270
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 2: But if you don't, he'll keep bumping it up. He'll

1271
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:47,600
Speaker 2: keep bumping it up. And so he wanted to like

1272
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 2: he was like, you know, follow me and I'll make

1273
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 2: you to become what you and your heart longed to be.

1274
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:56,240
Speaker 2: I will, and it's way more than you think, way

1275
01:10:56,280 --> 01:10:58,559
Speaker 2: more than you think, beyond what you could ask or imagine,

1276
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 2: and I will take you there. But I got scared

1277
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 2: of it. I was afraid of it. And so the alcohol,

1278
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 2: like you know, alcohol, it increases the fear, actually the insecurity.

1279
01:11:09,560 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 2: It doesn't really take it away, it actually increases it.

1280
01:11:11,800 --> 01:11:14,839
Speaker 2: And so I would I would see these levels coming

1281
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 2: and I would intentionally kind of self destruct a little bit. Yeah,

1282
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:24,440
Speaker 2: And so the I would fail, and the failure was painful,

1283
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 2: but the alcohol like soothed the sense of failure. But

1284
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:28,560
Speaker 2: it protected me from getting up to a place that

1285
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,320
Speaker 2: I couldn't get out of right where it was too whiskey.

1286
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 2: And so the lads like so so when he said

1287
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 2: the height I was afraid of was to go to

1288
01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:43,440
Speaker 2: the height that he wanted to walk me to vocationally, spiritually,

1289
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,040
Speaker 2: that's the height I was really afraid of. But I

1290
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:48,679
Speaker 2: but it showed in me geograph and in physical height.

1291
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:51,280
Speaker 2: I tell people all the time, your body is telling

1292
01:11:51,320 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 2: you also what's in your spirit, Like they're the same,

1293
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 2: they're all together. So if you if you think you

1294
01:11:57,080 --> 01:11:59,439
Speaker 2: know I'm afraid of closed rooms or I'm afraid of

1295
01:11:59,640 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 2: you know, airplane. It's way deeper than that. That's just

1296
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:06,639
Speaker 2: the manifestation of it. And so so I went through

1297
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:11,559
Speaker 2: a year of that, you know, rehab and deep into

1298
01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,479
Speaker 2: identity work because when I the alert did not want

1299
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 2: me to say I was an alcoholic. He did not

1300
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 2: want me using that as an identity state. Yeah, but

1301
01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 2: what he wanted me to say was I can never

1302
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:25,240
Speaker 2: drink again.

1303
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1304
01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 2: But it was like this is how he said. He said,

1305
01:12:29,000 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 2: you're allergic to alcohol like a person's allergic to peanuts.

1306
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,760
Speaker 2: You eat it, you die. It's not an identity, it's

1307
01:12:35,800 --> 01:12:38,200
Speaker 2: a situation, and you just don't eat peanuts, and you

1308
01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,880
Speaker 2: just don't drink alcohol. I never tell another person not

1309
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 2: to drink. I don't stand up and preach against it.

1310
01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:46,599
Speaker 2: I'm I'm just like listen people at you know, if

1311
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 2: we're at something and people are drinking, like, hey, you

1312
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:49,640
Speaker 2: want to drink, I'm like no thanks. And if they

1313
01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 2: asked me about I was like, dude, I'm allergic alcohol.

1314
01:12:53,479 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 2: If I drink it, telling you right now or I've

1315
01:12:56,920 --> 01:12:59,160
Speaker 2: already had my quota for my whole life. So that's

1316
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 2: I'm right now.

1317
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 1: Well, and I'm I'm glad you brought that up about

1318
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: the identity, right, because there are some people who, you know, identity.

1319
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: It's step two in my in my book, and I

1320
01:13:09,360 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 1: obviously talk a lot about it through through you, and

1321
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:14,200
Speaker 1: they're like, well, John, why is the title Confessions of

1322
01:13:14,200 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: a Christian Alcoholic? And I say, well, two reasons. One,

1323
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 1: Confessions of a Christian with Alcohol Use Disorder isn't a

1324
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:25,519
Speaker 1: catchy title. And number two is that I I don't

1325
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 1: use it as an identity statement right now. I get

1326
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:32,800
Speaker 1: I use it in a sense as a mission tool,

1327
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 1: right because for a lot of people, they're easy, they're

1328
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 1: able to easily identify at least, Oh, I know what

1329
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 1: you're talking about, right, But then I get them hooked in,

1330
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 1: and then I do all this great stuff about talking

1331
01:13:43,840 --> 01:13:47,520
Speaker 1: about identity and how it's not my identity right but

1332
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:51,320
Speaker 1: but but yeah, you're right, it's too many people use

1333
01:13:51,360 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 1: it as an identity as an identity statement. And I

1334
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:56,760
Speaker 1: think in so many times and places, those are the

1335
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:58,200
Speaker 1: people that are like, I have to go to three

1336
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:00,639
Speaker 1: meetings a day. If I don't go to three meetings

1337
01:14:00,680 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: a day, then I'm gonna go back to it. And

1338
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, because you've embraced that as your identity, right,

1339
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: and I try to use it. I say, I use

1340
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:14,120
Speaker 1: it in the way that Paul and Matthew use it.

1341
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: And Brendan Manning, who's a very famous Christian alcoholic, right, yeah, yes,

1342
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:23,640
Speaker 1: I love when he says, you know, Matthew or excuse me,

1343
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:27,280
Speaker 1: Mark Luke and John whenever they're talking about Matthew, they

1344
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:31,280
Speaker 1: say Matthew or Levi, but Matthew. When Matthew talks about

1345
01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:34,919
Speaker 1: himself and his own gospel, he always says tax collector,

1346
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 1: the publican. And he's like, I always want to remind

1347
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,680
Speaker 1: you how far Jesus had to stoop to come get me.

1348
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 1: And it's like, that's why I use it, not as

1349
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 1: an identity statement, but as a reminder to me and

1350
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: to you. This is how far Jesus had to stoop

1351
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,080
Speaker 1: to come get me, even as a Christian, as someone

1352
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:56,559
Speaker 1: who loved him and followed him. And that's my question

1353
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 1: to you, right, is I think there's a lot of people, Jamie.

1354
01:14:59,040 --> 01:15:02,200
Speaker 1: I had people. I had people, one very famous person

1355
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 1: who I asked to review the book. They said, I

1356
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:09,960
Speaker 1: can't endorse this book because I question I don't doubt

1357
01:15:09,960 --> 01:15:12,680
Speaker 1: that you're a Christian now, But for you to have

1358
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 1: been engaging in ongoing sin to this degree, I don't

1359
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 1: know if you were saved before. How do you maybe

1360
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:25,719
Speaker 1: respond to that because obviously you're you're the Lord's telling

1361
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,880
Speaker 1: you to release felons, my goodness, and you're pulling over

1362
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:33,960
Speaker 1: and releasing felons right like you're saved, Jamie. You're following Jesus,

1363
01:15:34,080 --> 01:15:36,320
Speaker 1: your love. You follow him to the Middle East? Right,

1364
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: So what do you say to people who either levy

1365
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 1: that charge or what I've heard from a lot of people,

1366
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:45,800
Speaker 1: Jamie since my book came out is people who are

1367
01:15:45,840 --> 01:15:48,640
Speaker 1: coming out of the woodwork saying, well, that's what I

1368
01:15:48,720 --> 01:15:51,439
Speaker 1: told and that's what I believed my whole life. That

1369
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:54,840
Speaker 1: until I until I stopped doing this thing, I'm not

1370
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 1: really a Christian. How have you dealt with that? And

1371
01:15:57,360 --> 01:15:58,519
Speaker 1: how do you respond to that?

1372
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,719
Speaker 2: Well, one is show me that in the scriptures, show

1373
01:16:02,760 --> 01:16:05,280
Speaker 2: me that I'm not talking about don't don't proof text

1374
01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 2: diverse to me. I'm saying, show me in the life

1375
01:16:07,320 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 2: of a believer in the Bible, is Peter a believer

1376
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 2: when he denies Jesus three times? Thank you? You know

1377
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 2: even more than that, though even more than that, let's

1378
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:22,200
Speaker 2: just use Peter, use Peter. There's a lot. So Peter is,

1379
01:16:22,280 --> 01:16:24,479
Speaker 2: you know, he denies Christ. All that happens. I was

1380
01:16:24,479 --> 01:16:26,840
Speaker 2: told if you deny Christ before men, he's going to

1381
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 2: deny you before the Father, almost like that's the unforgivable one.

1382
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 2: So Peter does that three times, right, and so it

1383
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be unforgivable to Jesus. Jesus never asks

1384
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:41,559
Speaker 2: him to even apologize for it. He never apologizes for it.

1385
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 2: He never He never says, I'm really sorry about the

1386
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 2: denial thing. Jesus doesn't say, I'm waiting for you. I'm

1387
01:16:46,960 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 2: waiting for you to apologize for denying me three times

1388
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,920
Speaker 2: in public. That's none of that's there. He doesn't do it.

1389
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:54,640
Speaker 2: All he asks Peter is tell me the truth. Do

1390
01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 2: you really love me unconditionally or not? And Peter says no,

1391
01:16:57,360 --> 01:16:59,400
Speaker 2: I don't. I love you like a brother. And Jesus says, okay,

1392
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:03,320
Speaker 2: now leave my shit like this. The most beautiful the

1393
01:17:03,400 --> 01:17:06,519
Speaker 2: thing Peter's doing wrong is saying to saying more than

1394
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 2: what he believes about himself in Jesus, like he's exaggerating

1395
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 2: it I'll never leave you. I'll never and and Jesus

1396
01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:15,519
Speaker 2: is like, stop saying I don't want you to say that.

1397
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 2: I want you to tell the truth about what's in

1398
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:20,800
Speaker 2: your heart. Do you love me agape, love me unconditionally?

1399
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 2: And Peter says no, and Jesus is like, that's what

1400
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:26,679
Speaker 2: you tell everybody, that you'll never leave me, you'll die

1401
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 2: for me. And it was never true, but it doesn't

1402
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,240
Speaker 2: have to be true. Do you love me? Do you

1403
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 2: love me? Second time? Do you love me unconditionally? No?

1404
01:17:34,680 --> 01:17:37,400
Speaker 2: I love you filet oh, I love you like a brother. Great,

1405
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 2: Now go lead. Now you can go lead because you're

1406
01:17:39,920 --> 01:17:43,120
Speaker 2: telling the truth about what's in your heart. Then Jesus

1407
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 2: says the third time, Now, let me ask you this question.

1408
01:17:46,240 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 2: Do you really love me like a brother? Though? Is

1409
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,559
Speaker 2: that level true? And Peter says he's never said this

1410
01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 2: before to Jesus, you know my heart, He's never made that.

1411
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 2: It's always he's telling Jesus what blah blah blah blah blah.

1412
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:04,439
Speaker 2: People that do that. You know, I love God o't condition.

1413
01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:07,040
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, I don't even know how to do

1414
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 2: that with my wife, and you're telling me you how

1415
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:13,519
Speaker 2: to do that with a God that you've never seen. Yeah,

1416
01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,120
Speaker 2: that you've you tell I don't believe you. I don't believe.

1417
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:20,120
Speaker 2: I believe you love God, but not like that level.

1418
01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:21,720
Speaker 2: And so Jesus says, do you love me like a

1419
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,360
Speaker 2: brother then? And Peter says, it makes Peter sad, And

1420
01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:26,880
Speaker 2: he says, you know, my heart, you know I love

1421
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:28,840
Speaker 2: you like a brother. And Jesus is like, that's it,

1422
01:18:28,920 --> 01:18:32,439
Speaker 2: Go teach, go lead. What Jesus means is like, just

1423
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,880
Speaker 2: bring me what you have. Just bring me what you have,

1424
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:39,599
Speaker 2: and I will lead you into unconditionally. But you are

1425
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:41,400
Speaker 2: never going to come up with it on your own.

1426
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 2: So like when someone tells me you're not a real

1427
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:45,760
Speaker 2: believer because X, I'm like, man, you don't you are

1428
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 2: ready or telling me you don't get it when you

1429
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 2: make that kind of statement. First of all, you don't know,

1430
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:52,880
Speaker 2: you would never even know the state of a soul,

1431
01:18:53,760 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 2: but to judge it on that kind of measurement. So

1432
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:58,639
Speaker 2: one more thing about Peter. So Peter goes to that

1433
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:02,280
Speaker 2: beautiful restoration and all of that, you know, keys of

1434
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,599
Speaker 2: the Church, the whole, the whole nine years. Then you

1435
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:07,519
Speaker 2: watch him all the way, all the way through the

1436
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:10,719
Speaker 2: Pentecost all of it. And then he's in the way

1437
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:14,879
Speaker 2: into acts and he's having a vision and the Lord's

1438
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 2: that you know, God's telling her, I want you to

1439
01:19:16,520 --> 01:19:18,719
Speaker 2: go be with a gentile and he's like, I can't,

1440
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:23,160
Speaker 2: I can't go. Those people are unclean. Even that far in,

1441
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 2: he's a racist. Yes, So so are you telling me

1442
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:32,720
Speaker 2: that if you're a racist be a believer, then we're

1443
01:19:32,760 --> 01:19:35,679
Speaker 2: in serious trouble because I know a lot, a lot,

1444
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 2: a lot of serious Christians who are racists. Whether they

1445
01:19:40,479 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 2: we still think God shows favor to certain people and

1446
01:19:43,439 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 2: not to others, But how do I know by the

1447
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 2: way we live?

1448
01:19:47,720 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 1: Yes?

1449
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:52,639
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, Then even after that, Paul has to challenge

1450
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:56,880
Speaker 2: Peter on his duplicity between gentiles and Jews. So that

1451
01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 2: doesn't say to you, well, Peter's not a real believer,

1452
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 2: because he would ever be oracist if he was. No. No,

1453
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 2: that's how deep that stuff is inside of us. And God,

1454
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 2: in his great mercy is walking us always forward into

1455
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:12,640
Speaker 2: newer and deeper levels of truth telling inside of our

1456
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,679
Speaker 2: own heart. And and man, you you, you you tell

1457
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:18,680
Speaker 2: me there's a day when you get there and you

1458
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:23,120
Speaker 2: got it. I don't believe it when when When when

1459
01:20:23,360 --> 01:20:27,640
Speaker 2: was Peter born again? When did Peter get saved the

1460
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 2: whole time? The whole time I was reborn, I was

1461
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 2: born again? When? I don't maybe in experiences I had

1462
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:43,800
Speaker 2: this weekend even but there's it's like constantly I tell

1463
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:46,719
Speaker 2: people what the same, when did you get saved? I'm

1464
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:50,719
Speaker 2: I'm in the whole salvation process still like I'm being

1465
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:53,599
Speaker 2: and the way I think about all kinds of stuff

1466
01:20:53,680 --> 01:20:57,080
Speaker 2: all the time, and if you're not, something's wrong. This

1467
01:20:57,160 --> 01:20:59,880
Speaker 2: is the this is sanctification, this is the life. This

1468
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 2: is why do we abide if we just are saved? Yes,

1469
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:03,680
Speaker 2: I was.

1470
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 1: Just gonna say that, Yeah, Like that's where the abiding

1471
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:14,479
Speaker 1: comes in, like like it's it's it's so interwoven and interconnected,

1472
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:18,519
Speaker 1: right like sanctification abiding, and it's just you do it

1473
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:20,680
Speaker 1: and then you do it right over again, and then

1474
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 1: you do it right over again. You know. Final question

1475
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 1: on this, which is what when when you kind of

1476
01:21:30,600 --> 01:21:33,960
Speaker 1: get to this point where you're realizing, okay, I need

1477
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:37,600
Speaker 1: to make a change, right and so obviously you have

1478
01:21:37,720 --> 01:21:41,160
Speaker 1: this this whole thing you know, blows up and whatnot?

1479
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 1: What is what would you say to people who are

1480
01:21:43,760 --> 01:21:48,160
Speaker 1: like I think sometimes and I get this question is like, well,

1481
01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:49,880
Speaker 1: I haven't had my rock bot, I haven't had my

1482
01:21:49,960 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 1: Q eight.

1483
01:21:50,560 --> 01:21:50,680
Speaker 2: Right.

1484
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:52,760
Speaker 1: For me, it was on South Beach in Miami, right,

1485
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: swimming in my own feces at one in the morning, drunk,

1486
01:21:55,640 --> 01:21:59,760
Speaker 1: you know, and they're like, but I'm kind of convicted,

1487
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: but I don't look like I don't look like you. Right,

1488
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 1: what's your encouragement to people who maybe the Holy Spirit

1489
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 1: is starting to knock, but because they don't look like

1490
01:22:09,800 --> 01:22:12,880
Speaker 1: the traditional alcoholic, they're like, well, I guess it's not

1491
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 1: bad yet, Like what would you say to them?

1492
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:17,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I and I get to talk to

1493
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:19,840
Speaker 2: people about this kind of stuff all the time. It's

1494
01:22:19,880 --> 01:22:23,679
Speaker 2: and I love it. It's like before you know, it's

1495
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 2: like you can be sober and be absolutely and the

1496
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:30,479
Speaker 2: wrong false identity. You know, we call it a try alcoholic, right,

1497
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:33,559
Speaker 2: You're just a try alcoholic. So you stop drinking, but

1498
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:36,479
Speaker 2: nothing's changed. And some people it's like, you know, it's

1499
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:39,599
Speaker 2: almost like there's so much meaner and bitter when they're

1500
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,519
Speaker 2: not drinking. You're almost like you're not better, ye, you're worse.

1501
01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:48,720
Speaker 2: So we know it's not the coping mechanism that's the issue. Right,

1502
01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:53,760
Speaker 2: it's whatever you're using to compensate for, and what you're

1503
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:58,000
Speaker 2: covering is lie. It's it's really only three three lives.

1504
01:22:58,120 --> 01:23:01,960
Speaker 2: A lies you believe about yourself, lies you believe about God,

1505
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:04,800
Speaker 2: and lies you believe about other people. That's always the

1506
01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:08,960
Speaker 2: source of our torment, any human. And the lie usually

1507
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 2: about yourself is that whatever situation you're in, your powerless

1508
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 2: and alone in it. That's really what you're going to

1509
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:17,400
Speaker 2: get to. You're powerless and alone for whatever reason you

1510
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:21,240
Speaker 2: ended up alone fear, guilt, shame, and powerless, like there's

1511
01:23:21,280 --> 01:23:22,680
Speaker 2: nothing you can do about it, So you need a

1512
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:25,559
Speaker 2: coping mechanism. So for people that are saying, you know,

1513
01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,679
Speaker 2: like you know, I only smoke weed on the weekends

1514
01:23:28,760 --> 01:23:34,639
Speaker 2: or any drink whatever, my question is is what fear

1515
01:23:34,720 --> 01:23:37,719
Speaker 2: is that cover What fear is that covering? Like what's

1516
01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 2: the fear? And if it's none, then I like, well

1517
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:45,639
Speaker 2: you're one of those people. Great good, I'm not drinking

1518
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 2: at all. If you can drink and it's just part

1519
01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 2: of like you would eat anything or drink anything, that's fine.

1520
01:23:52,040 --> 01:23:55,240
Speaker 2: Who cares leave it alone, it's fine. But if it's

1521
01:23:55,320 --> 01:23:57,880
Speaker 2: like if you know, like this is I gotta have

1522
01:23:57,960 --> 01:24:00,280
Speaker 2: this at five o'clock, you know, even if it's one

1523
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:04,439
Speaker 2: or two. My question, what if five o'clock are you

1524
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:04,920
Speaker 2: afraid of?

1525
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:05,400
Speaker 1: Like?

1526
01:24:05,479 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 2: What is it you're afraid of? That's all. That's all

1527
01:24:07,960 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 2: I'm asking. And so I don't whether a person drinks

1528
01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 2: doesn't drink. There's there's guys that go to the gym.

1529
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:16,439
Speaker 2: I'm like, why, how are you so wounded that you

1530
01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 2: live in this gym? Yeah? Right, and constantly looking at

1531
01:24:19,880 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 2: yourself in the mirror and like like like that's to me,

1532
01:24:23,600 --> 01:24:26,559
Speaker 2: just that's just as dangerous. But it's acceptable. You know,

1533
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:29,760
Speaker 2: it's like good, but it's not. It's like, what are

1534
01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:32,200
Speaker 2: you afraid of? What? So my question all the time,

1535
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:33,800
Speaker 2: and I'm talking to people is just tell me the

1536
01:24:33,840 --> 01:24:36,519
Speaker 2: main negative emotion you deal with on a regular basis,

1537
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 2: just as a human being, what do you deal with?

1538
01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:42,160
Speaker 2: And the two main negative emotions people deal with are

1539
01:24:42,200 --> 01:24:45,559
Speaker 2: anger and fear. That's what you're gonna get to anywhere

1540
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:49,679
Speaker 2: in the world, any background, any religion, anger and fear.

1541
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:52,559
Speaker 2: Anger is a secondary emotion to fear. So what you're

1542
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:56,280
Speaker 2: gonna get to and all humans is fear. Okay, So

1543
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,800
Speaker 2: now tell me what you're afraid of? That is like

1544
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 2: best question I tell couples if you if you want

1545
01:25:02,720 --> 01:25:06,519
Speaker 2: to have an intimate relationship or vulnerable, just just tell

1546
01:25:06,520 --> 01:25:10,599
Speaker 2: a person what you're afraid of. Really, that is the

1547
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 2: deepest level of connection between humans. When I'm in a

1548
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 2: group of people like our community group, which which you

1549
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:18,840
Speaker 2: know it is people that didn't know each other we

1550
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:21,280
Speaker 2: started meeting together, all we would do to start the

1551
01:25:21,320 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 2: meeting is eat dinner together and say what we're most

1552
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 2: afraid of. That's all we would do. We didn't talk

1553
01:25:26,360 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 2: about where are your background? Well, it's just tell me

1554
01:25:28,920 --> 01:25:30,960
Speaker 2: what you're afraid of. When people start saying what they're

1555
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:33,720
Speaker 2: afraid of, they are telling you more about themselves than

1556
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:35,040
Speaker 2: they could ever describe.

1557
01:25:35,560 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 1: Wow.

1558
01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:38,720
Speaker 2: Right, And then we would go into like, well what

1559
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 2: does that say you believe about you? I'm afraid of

1560
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:43,960
Speaker 2: I'm afraid I might lose my job. Okay, well people

1561
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:45,760
Speaker 2: lose their jobs all the time. There's other jobs. Why

1562
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 2: are you afraid of that? Well, because and then they

1563
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:50,640
Speaker 2: get to well, maybe God won't take care of me

1564
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 2: or maybe well what does that mean? Why wouldn't you

1565
01:25:53,720 --> 01:25:56,840
Speaker 2: take care of you? Well, because I'm unworthy? Boom, there

1566
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:00,719
Speaker 2: it is. That's it. That's the killer state right there.

1567
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:05,439
Speaker 2: Everyone loses doll I'm unworthy. That's what you drink over

1568
01:26:05,600 --> 01:26:07,760
Speaker 2: top of. That's what you go work out in the

1569
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:09,960
Speaker 2: gym to cover up. That's the thing you go to

1570
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:13,960
Speaker 2: church five times a week to cover. I'm unworthy. People

1571
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:16,160
Speaker 2: go to the mission field to get rid of that one.

1572
01:26:17,040 --> 01:26:20,960
Speaker 2: It's all destructive, it's all harmful. People go into full

1573
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:24,000
Speaker 2: time ministry all the time to try and be worthy,

1574
01:26:24,880 --> 01:26:28,960
Speaker 2: and it's harmful. And so that's that's so just simply

1575
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:30,600
Speaker 2: what are you afraid? Tell me, man, tell me what

1576
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:34,960
Speaker 2: you're afraid of? And then what's the identity that goes along?

1577
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:37,240
Speaker 2: What's that The fear is just pointing to a lie

1578
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:40,000
Speaker 2: you believe about yourself. What's the lie you believe about

1579
01:26:40,040 --> 01:26:43,320
Speaker 2: yourself that's producing the fear that's causing you to go

1580
01:26:43,360 --> 01:26:45,160
Speaker 2: find some way to get rid of the fear. My

1581
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:47,320
Speaker 2: I can tell you right now the thing I was

1582
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:50,320
Speaker 2: drinking over top of I'm a disappointment. That's what I

1583
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 2: was covering all the time. I'm a disappointment. Where did

1584
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 2: I learn it? From my mom and from the church?

1585
01:26:56,320 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 2: And I didn't know how to get rid of it?

1586
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:00,760
Speaker 2: But I didn't know that's what it was. I just

1587
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:04,160
Speaker 2: I figured, like, they're right, I'm a scumbag. I get it.

1588
01:27:04,280 --> 01:27:05,479
Speaker 2: So what am I going to do with that in

1589
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:08,040
Speaker 2: my whole life? I'm either going to act like a scumbag,

1590
01:27:08,080 --> 01:27:09,400
Speaker 2: which I don't want to do, or I'm going to

1591
01:27:09,479 --> 01:27:12,320
Speaker 2: try and get rid of the guilt and keep it

1592
01:27:12,400 --> 01:27:15,360
Speaker 2: hidden that i'm you know, And so that's what you're

1593
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:18,120
Speaker 2: looking for and the way you can so so when

1594
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:20,840
Speaker 2: we meet together with people, we don't have to do

1595
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:23,200
Speaker 2: a big intervention on them. We want to hit them

1596
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:26,640
Speaker 2: way before that. Yes, you know, and we do this

1597
01:27:26,680 --> 01:27:29,040
Speaker 2: with middle school kids. That's why we're doing it. That's

1598
01:27:29,040 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 2: all right. Our whole identity impact nonprofit is to get

1599
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:36,559
Speaker 2: into the schools and hit these lies while they're being formed,

1600
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:41,080
Speaker 2: while they're being embraced, instead of at you know, forty

1601
01:27:41,120 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 2: one when some guy's with me going like what is it?

1602
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 2: What do you actually believe about yourself? And like, well,

1603
01:27:46,280 --> 01:27:48,320
Speaker 2: I'm a disappointment and it kills me to even try

1604
01:27:48,360 --> 01:27:51,280
Speaker 2: and say it out loud. But once I say it,

1605
01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:53,200
Speaker 2: then he's like, Okay, let's ask God what he says

1606
01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:56,400
Speaker 2: about you. I never thought about that because I knew

1607
01:27:56,400 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 2: what God would say, he's going to verify I'm a

1608
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,240
Speaker 2: disappointment from the guy I'm with. He's like, that is

1609
01:28:02,320 --> 01:28:06,600
Speaker 2: not He never says that to anybody. You only the

1610
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:08,960
Speaker 2: enemy says that. He because you want to see that where

1611
01:28:08,960 --> 01:28:12,200
Speaker 2: in the Bible this is true? Garden of Eden first,

1612
01:28:12,360 --> 01:28:16,080
Speaker 2: the first break, they hide, they're ashamed. God comes and

1613
01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,680
Speaker 2: finds them. They don't go find God. He comes and

1614
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:21,960
Speaker 2: finds them. You're told that when you sin, there's a

1615
01:28:21,960 --> 01:28:23,720
Speaker 2: big chasm and we got to figure out how to

1616
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:27,519
Speaker 2: get across it. And Jesus not a nope, they sin,

1617
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:31,200
Speaker 2: no chasm. God's right there looking for him. He's not

1618
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:34,760
Speaker 2: saying come over here across the separation. He's right there

1619
01:28:34,800 --> 01:28:37,200
Speaker 2: looking for him. And he's like, what are you guys doing?

1620
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:40,599
Speaker 2: Where are you? Why are you hiding from me? Because

1621
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,639
Speaker 2: we're ashamed? Who told you you should be ashamed? I

1622
01:28:43,720 --> 01:28:47,599
Speaker 2: never said that about you. I don't. That's like, that's

1623
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:49,479
Speaker 2: the first story in the Bible.

1624
01:28:50,439 --> 01:28:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we closs over it.

1625
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:55,799
Speaker 2: And we skip right past it. And here's the doctrine

1626
01:28:55,800 --> 01:29:01,479
Speaker 2: we start with. You're born into shame. So that's how

1627
01:29:01,520 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 2: I begin my That's the first thing I start hearing

1628
01:29:03,479 --> 01:29:06,280
Speaker 2: when I'm growing up. You're sinful and separated and you

1629
01:29:06,320 --> 01:29:09,439
Speaker 2: are desperately wicked and blah blah blah blah blah. It's

1630
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:11,120
Speaker 2: like that's a hard one to climb out of.

1631
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because both are.

1632
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:18,880
Speaker 2: And we'll verify it, we'll act it out. Right. But

1633
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 2: then you meet Jesus and you watch him talking to

1634
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 2: a woman caught in adultery who deserves to be executed,

1635
01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:28,040
Speaker 2: and he lets her walk away and says, he's like,

1636
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:34,120
Speaker 2: I'm not I'm not the accuser of humans. The enemy is.

1637
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 2: I don't accuse people. He accuses people. I redeem people.

1638
01:29:39,240 --> 01:29:42,200
Speaker 2: I rescue people. And if you understood that, you'd be

1639
01:29:42,280 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 2: so glad I was here and not afraid that I

1640
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:49,640
Speaker 2: would show up. Yes, right, So then that to me

1641
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:53,640
Speaker 2: is like you hit that lie in people. Whether they

1642
01:29:53,720 --> 01:29:56,439
Speaker 2: drink to drinks or no drinks or one hundred drinks,

1643
01:29:56,640 --> 01:29:58,679
Speaker 2: they're all doing they're all figuring out how to cope

1644
01:29:58,680 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 2: with I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I

1645
01:30:01,160 --> 01:30:03,519
Speaker 2: don't look right. They're all dealing with. That's same, those

1646
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:04,480
Speaker 2: same lies.

1647
01:30:05,600 --> 01:30:07,519
Speaker 1: You hit on so many good things there, right, I

1648
01:30:07,520 --> 01:30:10,280
Speaker 1: mean from from the fact that like it's not it's

1649
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:13,680
Speaker 1: not about quantity or frequency. Right, you you can you

1650
01:30:13,760 --> 01:30:18,280
Speaker 1: can be you know, doing working out, drinking whatever, not

1651
01:30:18,280 --> 01:30:20,519
Speaker 1: not even getting drunk. You're like, well, it's only sinful

1652
01:30:20,520 --> 01:30:23,720
Speaker 1: if I'm getting drunk. No, If you're using it to,

1653
01:30:24,560 --> 01:30:28,120
Speaker 1: like you said, hide false identities and go to lies

1654
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:30,200
Speaker 1: instead of bringing those to Jesus, that's a problem.

1655
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:30,639
Speaker 2: Right.

1656
01:30:31,360 --> 01:30:34,680
Speaker 1: And I love that question. I actually I'll credit you,

1657
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:36,160
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna change. I have a talk that I

1658
01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:39,639
Speaker 1: give on radical vulnerability, right and and I and I

1659
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:41,679
Speaker 1: encourage people. I just gave this to a big church

1660
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 1: down here in Dallas last week, right, And they're like, well,

1661
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:45,120
Speaker 1: how do you do it? And I said, well, you

1662
01:30:45,160 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 1: go one step further than you're then you're comfortable going.

1663
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:49,720
Speaker 1: And what I'm gonna add is and you ask the

1664
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:51,800
Speaker 1: question what are you afraid of?

1665
01:30:52,040 --> 01:30:52,360
Speaker 2: Oh?

1666
01:30:52,920 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 1: My like, oh my goodness, what are you afraid of?

1667
01:30:56,720 --> 01:30:59,080
Speaker 2: James? That's the question. Yeah, that's it.

1668
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:02,000
Speaker 1: Well I was gonna say, hey, I don't like you've

1669
01:31:02,040 --> 01:31:05,160
Speaker 1: been so gracious with your with your time. This has

1670
01:31:05,200 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 1: been as good as I thought it could. It could

1671
01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 1: be you are doing incredible work with Donna as a

1672
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:14,400
Speaker 1: part of identity exchange. If people want to get I mean,

1673
01:31:14,479 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 1: you have courses. You're obviously working on a new book

1674
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:20,320
Speaker 1: which I can't wait. If they want to go find

1675
01:31:20,360 --> 01:31:22,640
Speaker 1: out more and get more of this teaching work, can

1676
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 1: they go.

1677
01:31:24,160 --> 01:31:28,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Our website Identity exchange dot com. And the book

1678
01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:31,479
Speaker 2: is called called The War of Worldviews, Choosing Connection in

1679
01:31:31,520 --> 01:31:35,320
Speaker 2: a Scarcity World. It's it's coming out in May. It's

1680
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:38,679
Speaker 2: on Amazon already, but it's all at our website, Identity

1681
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:42,400
Speaker 2: exchange dot com. And if you're interested. For those folks

1682
01:31:42,400 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 2: that are interested in schools, public schools, private schools, all

1683
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:49,839
Speaker 2: of those and doing this kind of work with kids,

1684
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 2: we have a website called Identity Impact and that's a

1685
01:31:54,320 --> 01:31:58,280
Speaker 2: nonprofit and that's committed to the public and private education.

1686
01:31:58,479 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 2: So those are our big deals right now.

1687
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:05,439
Speaker 1: It's important because the the the things that I was

1688
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:08,040
Speaker 1: drinking away at thirty six were the lies that were

1689
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:13,080
Speaker 1: implanted to me at six one use and trauma and whatnot.

1690
01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:15,160
Speaker 1: And people would ask me, John Sawy, are you drinking

1691
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:17,639
Speaker 1: away the things that were done to you? And I said, well,

1692
01:32:17,680 --> 01:32:20,680
Speaker 1: sometimes right, but most of it it was it was

1693
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 1: what was implanted at me that then shaped who I was,

1694
01:32:24,479 --> 01:32:28,200
Speaker 1: and then the habits of escapism and when I didn't

1695
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:31,160
Speaker 1: want to think. Man, and Jamie, your story about the

1696
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:33,240
Speaker 1: first time you drink alcohol, I mean, it's almost it's

1697
01:32:33,280 --> 01:32:36,479
Speaker 1: almost like it's almost like you read the words from

1698
01:32:36,479 --> 01:32:39,120
Speaker 1: my book right, It's like I got drunk the first

1699
01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:42,800
Speaker 1: time when I was, you know, early teenager, and it

1700
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:47,479
Speaker 1: was for the first time I could not have to

1701
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:49,240
Speaker 1: think about what I was going through.

1702
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:51,840
Speaker 2: It was just exactly peace.

1703
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 1: I was present, and my body and my mind remembered

1704
01:32:56,920 --> 01:32:59,400
Speaker 1: that for the rest of my life. It was at

1705
01:32:59,439 --> 01:33:01,479
Speaker 1: Deer Camp. And I say for the rest of my life.

1706
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:05,320
Speaker 1: I just wanted to return to Deer Camp. And so

1707
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:09,919
Speaker 1: that work that you're doing with kids is incredibly important.

1708
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:13,200
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing that. Jamie, love you. We'll have

1709
01:33:13,280 --> 01:33:16,320
Speaker 1: to have you on again, and just thank you for

1710
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:17,040
Speaker 1: the work you're doing.

1711
01:33:17,760 --> 01:33:19,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. And thank

1712
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:21,799
Speaker 2: you for your story and your testimony and your book.

1713
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:24,040
Speaker 2: Thank you appreciate it.

1714
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:32,600
Speaker 1: What are you afraid of? Oh my goodness, Like I

1715
01:33:32,600 --> 01:33:34,000
Speaker 1: said it at the end there, like I'm going to

1716
01:33:34,040 --> 01:33:38,200
Speaker 1: start incorporating that into my talk on radical vulnerability because

1717
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:41,439
Speaker 1: it like that is the question that can unlock so much.

1718
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:47,040
Speaker 1: And as I hinted at during the interview is there

1719
01:33:47,040 --> 01:33:49,320
Speaker 1: are some key questions that Jamie has taught me to

1720
01:33:49,360 --> 01:33:52,160
Speaker 1: ask God every morning, Right, what do you want me

1721
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:53,559
Speaker 1: to know today? And what do you want me to

1722
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:57,920
Speaker 1: do today? And now perhaps a question I'm going to

1723
01:33:57,960 --> 01:34:00,800
Speaker 1: start asking myself regularly, what are you afraid of?

1724
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:01,360
Speaker 2: Right?

1725
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:05,160
Speaker 1: And it reminds me of the interview that I did

1726
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:08,160
Speaker 1: with Nichole Szowski. You can go back and listen to

1727
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:11,759
Speaker 1: that episode. She wrote a book called what If It's Wonderful?

1728
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:16,840
Speaker 1: And I think so many times we succumb to the

1729
01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 1: tyranny of the what if, Well, what if this happens?

1730
01:34:19,360 --> 01:34:21,599
Speaker 1: What if this happens? And really what that is is

1731
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:25,880
Speaker 1: what if it's bad? What if it goes south? And

1732
01:34:25,880 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 1: and really what the Lord is inviting us into? And

1733
01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:31,200
Speaker 1: I think Jamie was getting that. There's what if it's wonderful?

1734
01:34:32,040 --> 01:34:35,200
Speaker 1: Like what if he shows up? What if he actually

1735
01:34:35,280 --> 01:34:37,760
Speaker 1: has you? What if he's actually there, what if he

1736
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:40,360
Speaker 1: actually loves you? What if he actually has the best

1737
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:42,800
Speaker 1: plan laid out and knows that this is for your

1738
01:34:42,840 --> 01:34:46,880
Speaker 1: good and his glory? What if it's wonderful? And so

1739
01:34:47,920 --> 01:34:49,720
Speaker 1: that's just that's going to stick with me for a

1740
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:53,479
Speaker 1: long time. As you can see you know that. This

1741
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:56,600
Speaker 1: is why I love Jamie Winship. I mean that interview

1742
01:34:56,800 --> 01:35:01,160
Speaker 1: was powerful, and I would encourag if there's one thing

1743
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:03,680
Speaker 1: in there and and and I'm just gonna I'm just

1744
01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:05,639
Speaker 1: gonna go out on a limb, like if you can't

1745
01:35:05,680 --> 01:35:09,000
Speaker 1: find one thing in that podcast that spoke to you

1746
01:35:09,040 --> 01:35:11,719
Speaker 1: that you can send us someone like check your pulse

1747
01:35:12,320 --> 01:35:14,639
Speaker 1: and then like send me an email, Like seriously, send

1748
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 1: me an email, because then let's talk, right, because there

1749
01:35:17,320 --> 01:35:22,000
Speaker 1: is there is so much good in that conversation, not

1750
01:35:22,120 --> 01:35:24,320
Speaker 1: because of me, not because of Jamie, but because of

1751
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:29,120
Speaker 1: what God is doing through him. So send send this podcast,

1752
01:35:29,200 --> 01:35:32,360
Speaker 1: send that one twenty second bit to someone and encourage

1753
01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 1: them get the book Living Feelings. And I'm so excited

1754
01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:40,000
Speaker 1: for Jamie's upcoming book as well. This is going to

1755
01:35:40,080 --> 01:35:44,280
Speaker 1: be an incredible, an incredible work and I'm so excited

1756
01:35:44,280 --> 01:35:46,719
Speaker 1: about it. As I always thank you to our partner

1757
01:35:46,720 --> 01:35:50,720
Speaker 1: Life Audio Life audio dot com for being a uh

1758
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:55,240
Speaker 1: just a supporter of this podcast and of this work.

1759
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:57,800
Speaker 1: So thankful, and head on over. If you want to

1760
01:35:57,800 --> 01:35:59,679
Speaker 1: pick up my book, you can go to Christian Alcoholic

1761
01:35:59,720 --> 01:36:02,120
Speaker 1: dot com. Or if you want to watch this podcast

1762
01:36:02,200 --> 01:36:04,200
Speaker 1: with Jamie. I don't try to do this too much,

1763
01:36:04,800 --> 01:36:07,559
Speaker 1: but you can watch this podcast at the Veritas Daily

1764
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:11,040
Speaker 1: dot com. The Veritas Daily dot com you can watch

1765
01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:14,960
Speaker 1: every single one of the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast.

1766
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:16,719
Speaker 1: Love you all and we will see you next week.