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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Out of Zion podcast. I'm Shelley Nees,

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Speaker 2: filling in for Dr. Susan Michael. Today, we have a

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Speaker 2: really special guest with us, an author of a newly

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Speaker 2: released book called Pharaoh Curse of the Kings, which, Adam Schindler,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 4: Let's take a break and hear a message from one

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Speaker 4: of our sponsors. Welcome to the Israel Answers series, connecting Israel,

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Speaker 4: the Bible, and you. Join Susan Michael as she explores

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Speaker 4: timely issues and current events from a scriptural perspective to

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Speaker 4: equip the Christian world with a balanced and biblical response.

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Speaker 4: Be sure to subscribe for future episodes, which will ignite

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Speaker 4: your faith and bring the Bible to life in your

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Speaker 4: everyday world. Now, let's join Susan with your Israel Answers.

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Speaker 2: I think you might be our first guest this season

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Speaker 2: to talk about ancient Egypt, so that's very exciting for me.

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Speaker 3: Great.

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Speaker 2: Can you just tell us, I mean, Egypt is a

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Speaker 2: very important place outside of Israel, outside of Canaan in

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Speaker 2: the Bible. So what got you interested in writing about

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Speaker 2: Egypt and its role in just the biblical narrative as

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Speaker 2: a whole?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I met.

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Speaker 5: About 20 years ago, I met a bunch of people

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Speaker 5: that were working in Saudi Arabia looking for the mountain

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Speaker 5: there in Arabia. Jim and Penny Caldwell met another fellow,

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Speaker 5: Leonard Moeller, who spent time with a guy, Ron Wyatt,

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Speaker 5: and met Bob Cornuke. And all of these people started

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Speaker 5: talking to me about this idea. And I got immersed

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Speaker 5: in that idea. And as I began to study that,

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Speaker 5: I began to see so much of the Egyptian connections

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Speaker 5: to all of that and the whole Exodus story and

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Speaker 5: Then I just got lost in, like many people do,

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Speaker 5: loving Egyptology and the ancient stuff and all the sites.

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Speaker 5: And so I began to study all of that and

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Speaker 5: I began to look for evidence of the biblical narrative,

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Speaker 5: the stories in Egypt, because I believe the Bible's true.

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Speaker 5: I believe it's not just a theological book, but it's

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Speaker 5: actually historical. It's the most accurate, verifiable archaeological book ever written.

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Speaker 5: So the big question was, is there any evidence of

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Speaker 5: the Jewish presence in Egypt? And why did God keep

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Speaker 5: taking people back to Egypt when there was oppression? And

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Speaker 5: so all of these questions to me about geopolitics and

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Speaker 5: archaeology and biblical theology began to grow up in a

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Speaker 5: study of Egyptology.

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Speaker 2: And Egypt does play a strange role because like you said,

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Speaker 2: It's the boogeyman of the Bible in lots of ways.

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Speaker 2: Like it's the place of the oppression. It's a place

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Speaker 2: that the Israelites were enslaved and free from. But it

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Speaker 2: also is a place of escape. It's a place that

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Speaker 2: is immune from famine. It's a place where the patriarchs

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Speaker 2: go and later our savior goes. So how does that

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Speaker 2: overplay in just the narrative of your book? Is Egypt

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Speaker 2: the bad guy? Is Egypt the great escape?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I tried not to make the good and bad

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Speaker 5: guys so two-dimensional because there's elements of all of that.

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Speaker 5: Egypt in the book lives in the background on an

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Speaker 5: ancient story where the modern day character is discovering, he's

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Speaker 5: an archaeologist that has been searching for historical clues for

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Speaker 5: the preservation of Western civilization. Okay. And he thinks that

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Speaker 5: inside of Egypt, there's an answer, but he's completely oblivious

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Speaker 5: to the role.

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Speaker 3: That Israel has played in that story.

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Speaker 5: And so his discovery along the journey of this story

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Speaker 5: discovers that the Exodus is the Rosetta stone of the

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Speaker 5: Bible and the Middle East. When you understand the Exodus,

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Speaker 5: you understand a lot of geopolitics. You understand ancient history.

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Speaker 5: And he comes to fully understand Egyptology when he discovers

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Speaker 5: the biblical story. So Egypt, Mitzrahim, they're not the bad guy.

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Speaker 5: They are the background for what's going on.

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Speaker 3: I'm writing a trilogy. And so the second book, there's

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Speaker 3: going to.

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Speaker 5: Be a lot more in modern day Egypt and some

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Speaker 5: of the things that are growing up there now.

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Speaker 3: But Egypt's not the bad guy.

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Speaker 2: So there's two camps in just biblical historians, biblical archaeology,

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Speaker 2: and these camps exist within Bible-believing people that there's a

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Speaker 2: late Exodus or an early Exodus. And so what side

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Speaker 2: do you take and why?

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Speaker 5: The early Exodus, the biblical answer is I'd use the

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Speaker 5: chronology of the internal dating in the Bible according to

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Speaker 5: Kings and Chronicles set to the time of the 586

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Speaker 5: destruction of the temple. And so when you set that

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Speaker 5: destruction time, it's pretty well developed in history of 586 BC.

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Speaker 5: Then you get all the Chronicles and Kings and you

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Speaker 5: get the 1446 date. I don't take the latter dating

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Speaker 5: because number one, it's not consistent with the biblical internal structure,

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Speaker 5: which I think is pretty accurate. But also the whole

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Speaker 5: idea of the story is that when you use the

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Speaker 5: text to interpret the text, start there, then you find

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Speaker 5: the timeline. And then when you find the timeline, you

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Speaker 5: can begin to understand who, what, where, why, and the

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Speaker 5: whole arc of the story begins to make sense. Instead

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Speaker 5: of starting with a date that wasn't from the Bible

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Speaker 5: because of a handful of other items, we start with

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Speaker 5: the one that is in the Bible and discover what's there.

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Speaker 3: And there's something to be said, too.

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Speaker 2: So the Bible doesn't give all the details, right? Because

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Speaker 2: it is trying to tell the story of freedom and

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Speaker 2: revolution and miracles. So it doesn't name the Pharaoh, which

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Speaker 2: would have been very helpful if it did.

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Speaker 3: Or it could have caused more problems, right? Because then

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Speaker 3: you'd have shrines and all kinds of things. Right.

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Speaker 2: So it's a place of dishonor to not name the

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Speaker 2: Pharaoh in that way, although it would have made it

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Speaker 2: easier for our lives now. But, I mean, for Bible

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Speaker 2: nerds like myself, that is a huge question. Who was

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Speaker 2: the Pharaoh of the Exodus? And your book is named Pharaoh,

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Speaker 2: so you also keep consistent with that biblical theme and

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Speaker 2: not naming him in your title. Yep.

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Speaker 3: But is the Pharaoh identified in your book? Yes, that's

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Speaker 3: the big punchline.

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Speaker 5: And it's the story that comes to fruition in a

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Speaker 5: synagogue underneath Temple Mount in Jerusalem. As they read the

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Speaker 5: scroll of Shemot, the Exodus Torah scroll, and they come

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Speaker 5: to understand, based on the whole journey that they didn't

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Speaker 5: know that they were on, to discover who the Pharaoh

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Speaker 5: of the Exodus was. But more than discovering the name

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Speaker 5: of the person... The story is nested inside of the

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Speaker 5: dynamics that in every generation for thousands of years, strong

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Speaker 5: men have controlled nations and they sacrifice the next generation

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Speaker 5: to hold on to power. And it's a story of

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Speaker 5: a son coming out from underneath his father's weight to

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Speaker 5: forge a new path with a new story. And so

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Speaker 5: it's overlaid on all of that. So the big punchline

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Speaker 5: is not who was the Pharaoh of the Exodus. That's

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Speaker 5: embedded in the story. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: And there is extra biblical evidence that also points to

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Speaker 2: an early date, right? Like, so we have the Merneptah Stellas.

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Speaker 2: Do you talk about that in the book or is

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Speaker 2: it just informed your own research?

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Speaker 3: Not that specific, Stella.

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Speaker 5: And I don't go into the supporting of the extra

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Speaker 5: biblical for the 1446 dating of that. But the whole

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Speaker 5: book pieces together all of the different components together.

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Speaker 3: That make that presentation.

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Speaker 5: The next story, I will go more into, I had

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Speaker 5: so much archaeology in the Thutmose dynasty and Hatshepsut and

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Speaker 5: all of the collapse of the last, the 18th dynasty.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't cram more Stellas in.

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Speaker 2: There's only so much density one book can take.

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Speaker 5: I took a lot out and I focused the dream

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Speaker 5: Stella in between the paws of the Sphinx features prominently

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Speaker 5: in the story as part of a propaganda piece that

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Speaker 5: for the the Moses the fourth who wrote it and

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Speaker 5: why he wrote it and how he's connected to Hatshepsut

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Speaker 5: and why is that all connected into the Exodus story

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Speaker 5: and the death of the firstborn.

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Speaker 2: So we're ICJ is it Israel related ministry and your

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Speaker 2: book does bring Israel into the story is it modern

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Speaker 2: Israel or just ancient Israel how does Israel feature The whole.

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Speaker 5: I wanted to not really sneak it in, but you...

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Speaker 5: I didn't want it to make it about Israel. But

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Speaker 5: my heart in writing the story was to show anyone

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Speaker 5: that would read it that Israel has a historic homeland.

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Speaker 5: They have a right to exist in that homeland and

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Speaker 5: that the modern state of Israel is living in a

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Speaker 5: very complicated part of the world.

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Speaker 3: And the last.

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Speaker 5: Third of the novel takes place in Jerusalem. It begins

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Speaker 5: with an airlift into Ramangon for critical care and a

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Speaker 5: wound that gets sustained. And then there's a terrorist attack

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Speaker 5: in the market in Tel Aviv. And then the final

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Speaker 5: part is that a rabbi takes the team on a

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Speaker 5: tour throughout Jerusalem and they walk through the springs of

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Speaker 5: Gion and Hezekiah's tunnel.

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Speaker 3: They learn about all of that. basically taking the route.

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Speaker 5: Themselves and then discovering Israel, the modern state tied to

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Speaker 5: the ancient story of the Exodus in Egypt. So it

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Speaker 5: does feature prominently. And my hope is at the end

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Speaker 5: of the book, you realize, oh, maybe the Exodus did happen.

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Speaker 5: Maybe Israel does have a right to exist as a nation.

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Speaker 5: And maybe my black and white gloss that international media

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Speaker 5: has given me about Israel being the boogeyman.

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Speaker 3: Needs a little more color.

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Speaker 2: Because a lot of times just, We can hammer home

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Speaker 2: over and over that these things, these points that you make,

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Speaker 2: that the Bible is true, that miracles happened, that God

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Speaker 2: performed great things in the presence of many witnesses.

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Speaker 3: But you are.

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Speaker 2: Specifically trying to do this through story. And can you

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Speaker 2: just explain your strategy for that? How is it that

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Speaker 2: you believe you can reach people, not just through facts

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Speaker 2: and fact-thumping, but through story?

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Speaker 5: Well, I believe that meaning lives inside of story. And

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Speaker 5: that's actually true neurologically in our brains. There's four big

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Speaker 5: kinds of meaning. Number one, proposition. This is the realm

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Speaker 5: and they live in different places in the neurosynaptic centers

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Speaker 5: in the mind, in the brain.

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Speaker 3: The first kind of meaning is propositional. This is facts.

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Speaker 5: These are things that you can know and have. Like,

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Speaker 5: I'm a conservative or I'm a Christian or I'm a Muslim.

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Speaker 5: I believe that this is true. The second kind of

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Speaker 5: knowing is process. So if you know how to swim

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Speaker 5: or ride a bike or code a website, it's true

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Speaker 5: or false that you can do that. But the knowledge

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Speaker 5: isn't true or false. That lives inside of a different place.

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Speaker 5: But the third part is called perspectival. And this is

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Speaker 5: a place that lives in the semantic memory. And this

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Speaker 5: is the stories that play when you remember. And when

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Speaker 5: you know something attached to a story that plays in

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Speaker 5: your mind, the day you got married, the birth of

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Speaker 5: your child, a Christmas event, that is a kind of

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Speaker 5: knowing that lives beneath the propositional. And our culture in,

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Speaker 5: I think our Christian culture has not done a great

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Speaker 5: job embedding meaning in the perspectival. Jesus did nothing that

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Speaker 5: he didn't do in the perspectival. He told stories, parables.

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Speaker 5: His public ministry was parables.

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Speaker 3: I think it's Matthew.

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Speaker 5: He told them nothing that he didn't say in parables.

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Speaker 5: So when you can tell the story, Capture a heart,

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Speaker 5: capture a mind, and tell a story. At the end,

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Speaker 5: you'll see and not just know. And then it gets

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Speaker 5: into Shema, and that's why going to Israel is such

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Speaker 5: a big deal.

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Speaker 3: God knew this.

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Speaker 2: He wrote the Bible prospectively to use it. So, yes,

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Speaker 2: you're not trying to tell the story of the whole world.

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Speaker 2: You're trying to tell the story of God's engagement with

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Speaker 2: the people and how he reveals himself to humanity. So

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Speaker 2: tell our listeners where they can find your book.

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Speaker 5: Well, you can buy it on Amazon. You can search

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Speaker 5: for Pharaoh Curse of the Kings. You can go to

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Speaker 5: my website, exodusfiles.com. That's a Bible study that I built

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Speaker 5: all around the topics in this fictional book. And so

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Speaker 5: you can buy it there. I have signed author's copies.

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Speaker 5: But I'd love for you to buy it, engage with

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Speaker 5: the story, write a great review if you like it.

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Speaker 3: If you don't like it, you can still write a review.

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Speaker 3: All press is good press.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much, Adam. It was so wonderful

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Speaker 2: to have you. And ICEJ, we take tours to Israel.

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Speaker 2: We encourage everyone to go to Israel, to be in Israel,

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Speaker 2: to walk these sites. But if that isn't possible for you,

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Speaker 2: reading these kind of stories and placing yourself in the

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Speaker 2: land through books and through your imagination is also wonderful

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Speaker 2: as well. So it's something I encourage everyone to do.

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Speaker 2: And thank you for being with us on Out of Zion.

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Speaker 1: Hey, just give me.

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Speaker 3: One more minute.

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Speaker 1: I want to offer you one of our free resources today.

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Speaker 1: We have wonderful resources in our show notes, and if

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Speaker 1: you go to our website at icejusa.org slash show notes,

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Speaker 1: you'll find links for a number of our free offers.

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Speaker 1: We have downloadables to help root you in Scripture, help

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Speaker 1: you to understand the issues surrounding Israel, and the importance

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Speaker 1: of Christian support for Israel. And don't forget, please follow

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Speaker 1: us on Facebook, YouTube and LinkedIn and stay connected. Thank

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Speaker 1: you and God bless.

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Speaker 4: We hope you have enjoyed this episode of Out of

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Speaker 4: Zion with Susan Michael. Be sure to subscribe to Out

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Speaker 4: of Zion now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, Pray.com, Salem OnePlace,

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Speaker 4: Salem Life Audio. Out of Zion with Susan Michael is

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Speaker 4: a production of ICEJ USA, all rights reserved. This podcast

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Speaker 4: is presented in partnership with Life Audio. To explore a

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Speaker 4: wide range of faith-centered podcasts on prayer, Bible study, parenting,

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Speaker 4: and more, visit lifeaudio.com.