1 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:25,820 Speaker 1: Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of 2 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,460 Speaker 1: hours of Dennis's lectures courses in classic radio programs. Had 3 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:41,220 Speaker 1: to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles. Go to Dennisprager dot com. 4 00:00:41,260 --> 00:00:44,060 Speaker 2: All right, everybody, welcome to the Ultimate Issues Hour, an 5 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:48,300 Speaker 2: hour each week devoted to the great questions of life. 6 00:00:48,500 --> 00:00:51,300 Speaker 2: And I think I got a signal from Heaven as 7 00:00:51,300 --> 00:00:54,100 Speaker 2: it were, to move Peter Kramer over into the Ultimate 8 00:00:54,100 --> 00:00:57,660 Speaker 2: Issues Hour. So it's actually worked out better for you, 9 00:00:57,740 --> 00:01:00,300 Speaker 2: and it worked out better, I think, for the show, 10 00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:03,500 Speaker 2: So thank you for your patience. Peter Kramer is a 11 00:01:03,540 --> 00:01:06,740 Speaker 2: professor of psychiatry at Brown University, a well known psychiatrist. 12 00:01:07,380 --> 00:01:11,100 Speaker 2: And there is a there is a series of biographies, 13 00:01:11,260 --> 00:01:15,140 Speaker 2: short biographies that have been put out. They're eminent, called 14 00:01:15,180 --> 00:01:18,780 Speaker 2: Eminent Lives, and he was given the honor and it 15 00:01:18,860 --> 00:01:22,699 Speaker 2: is an honor to write the one on Freud, whom, 16 00:01:22,780 --> 00:01:26,180 Speaker 2: as I reminded you folks earlier in the show, I 17 00:01:26,380 --> 00:01:29,100 Speaker 2: was my nominee either he or Hitler, and I'm not 18 00:01:29,180 --> 00:01:33,500 Speaker 2: comparing them. Although it's amazing how people will pervert what 19 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:37,140 Speaker 2: you say. I'm a veteran of having my words perverted 20 00:01:38,260 --> 00:01:41,020 Speaker 2: there in no way related, but those were my two 21 00:01:41,060 --> 00:01:45,740 Speaker 2: nominees for Person of the Century. Time eventually picked Albert Einstein, 22 00:01:46,620 --> 00:01:49,780 Speaker 2: which was just a safe pick. But the effects of 23 00:01:49,820 --> 00:01:53,420 Speaker 2: those two individuals, one for ill and one perhaps, I 24 00:01:53,460 --> 00:01:57,900 Speaker 2: guess I'm a mixed bag. I have been to the 25 00:01:58,180 --> 00:02:01,020 Speaker 2: great consternation of many of my listeners. I have been 26 00:02:01,060 --> 00:02:03,540 Speaker 2: a fan of a Freud. I thought the man was 27 00:02:03,580 --> 00:02:07,340 Speaker 2: the genius of the twentieth century, for good and for ill. 28 00:02:07,380 --> 00:02:09,740 Speaker 2: But I really believe he was a genius in opening 29 00:02:09,820 --> 00:02:15,740 Speaker 2: up the unconscious and all of the ideas that he had. 30 00:02:15,859 --> 00:02:18,380 Speaker 2: Do you agree, first of all, on the effect that 31 00:02:18,460 --> 00:02:19,980 Speaker 2: he has had on modern man? 32 00:02:20,660 --> 00:02:24,500 Speaker 3: Enormous effect, you know. I think you have to when 33 00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:27,460 Speaker 3: you write a short biography, choose one challenge or a 34 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:29,340 Speaker 3: couple and say these are the ones I'm going to 35 00:02:29,420 --> 00:02:32,180 Speaker 3: look at. And I think what's happened to Freud over 36 00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:35,340 Speaker 3: the past twenty years or so is that his stock 37 00:02:35,500 --> 00:02:38,980 Speaker 3: really has gone down as a scientist and even as 38 00:02:39,060 --> 00:02:42,019 Speaker 3: a person of character. I think, as we know more 39 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:45,940 Speaker 3: about what he's done through witnesses, you know, beyond himself, 40 00:02:45,980 --> 00:02:51,260 Speaker 3: he looks less good. But he has had this enormous 41 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:55,300 Speaker 3: influence on how we experience ourselves, so that that contrast 42 00:02:55,420 --> 00:02:58,820 Speaker 3: that paradox, how you can be less and less respected 43 00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:01,940 Speaker 3: as a scientist and yet have this enormous influence on 44 00:03:02,860 --> 00:03:05,540 Speaker 3: how modern man lives with himself. You know, that seemed 45 00:03:05,540 --> 00:03:06,860 Speaker 3: to me my challenge. 46 00:03:07,300 --> 00:03:10,140 Speaker 2: Well, it is a challenge. So the question is, and 47 00:03:10,180 --> 00:03:14,460 Speaker 2: there are people who believe this, many people that psychoanalysis 48 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:16,980 Speaker 2: and psychotherapy, at least in so far as they are 49 00:03:16,980 --> 00:03:22,700 Speaker 2: related to psychiatry, are not based on science and therefore 50 00:03:23,060 --> 00:03:24,500 Speaker 2: are more harmful than good. 51 00:03:25,220 --> 00:03:28,620 Speaker 3: Well, I think psychotherapy is done well. There was psychotherapy 52 00:03:28,700 --> 00:03:33,540 Speaker 3: before Freud. Most psychotherapy today doesn't have very direct links 53 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:37,260 Speaker 3: to Freud, and psychotherapy is still one of the really 54 00:03:37,340 --> 00:03:41,380 Speaker 3: important treatments for mental illness, for minor mental illness, for growth, 55 00:03:41,380 --> 00:03:45,260 Speaker 3: for education. But the particular additions that Freud made about 56 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:49,420 Speaker 3: infantile sexuality, some of the things he said about the 57 00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:52,820 Speaker 3: nature of the unconscious just have not nature of dreams 58 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:56,700 Speaker 3: have not held up as well as probably everybody expected 59 00:03:56,740 --> 00:03:58,300 Speaker 3: fifty years ago they would hold up. 60 00:03:58,820 --> 00:04:01,500 Speaker 2: What do you think of psychoanalysis itself? And for those 61 00:04:01,540 --> 00:04:04,460 Speaker 2: who don't know the difference psychotherapy is if you go 62 00:04:04,500 --> 00:04:07,100 Speaker 2: to a psychologist or you go to any therapist and 63 00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:11,620 Speaker 2: you talk through your problems. Psychiatry is somebody who does 64 00:04:11,660 --> 00:04:15,300 Speaker 2: that and also has an MD and can prescribe prescription drugs. 65 00:04:15,700 --> 00:04:18,580 Speaker 2: And then there was psychoanalysis where you go about four 66 00:04:18,580 --> 00:04:21,140 Speaker 2: times a week and what is it for about two 67 00:04:21,219 --> 00:04:22,020 Speaker 2: hours of session? 68 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:25,099 Speaker 3: Well, no, usually the same fifty minutes. 69 00:04:25,260 --> 00:04:28,460 Speaker 2: Fifty minutes, yeah, and you but it is about that 70 00:04:28,620 --> 00:04:29,900 Speaker 2: much a week, right. 71 00:04:29,820 --> 00:04:31,820 Speaker 3: It can be four or five times a week, and 72 00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:35,380 Speaker 3: of course doing that is a different experience. You really 73 00:04:35,700 --> 00:04:39,220 Speaker 3: come in touch with aspects of yourself. The psychiatrists psychoanalyst 74 00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:42,420 Speaker 3: becomes very important in your fantasies and imagination. 75 00:04:43,180 --> 00:04:44,979 Speaker 4: Have you undergone psychoanalysis? 76 00:04:45,020 --> 00:04:49,100 Speaker 3: I have? I have, and it was a Freudian psychoanalysis. 77 00:04:49,100 --> 00:04:52,780 Speaker 3: I was in London, where Freud had moved after he 78 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:56,539 Speaker 3: left Vienna. Anna Freud was still in London, his daughter. 79 00:04:57,100 --> 00:05:01,500 Speaker 3: I was at that institute where you know, they presided, 80 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:04,980 Speaker 3: and I was a patient and I thought it did 81 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:07,700 Speaker 3: me a great deal of good. Although you have to 82 00:05:07,780 --> 00:05:10,820 Speaker 3: ask was it for the reasons that people imagined at 83 00:05:10,820 --> 00:05:13,180 Speaker 3: the time, you know, was it important to bring forth 84 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:18,180 Speaker 3: the Oedipus complex, this notion of having a sexual incestuous 85 00:05:18,180 --> 00:05:22,980 Speaker 3: interest in your mother? And being willing to murder your 86 00:05:22,980 --> 00:05:25,580 Speaker 3: father in the interest of that, you know, that sort 87 00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:27,779 Speaker 3: of thing. Is that? Did that really hold? Or was 88 00:05:27,820 --> 00:05:29,500 Speaker 3: it just that I was in the hands of a 89 00:05:29,620 --> 00:05:32,820 Speaker 3: very good person and given some time and space to 90 00:05:32,860 --> 00:05:33,820 Speaker 3: think problems through. 91 00:05:34,220 --> 00:05:38,219 Speaker 2: I publicly admit that if I had the time, I 92 00:05:38,260 --> 00:05:40,940 Speaker 2: would love to undergo psychoanalysis. 93 00:05:41,020 --> 00:05:44,460 Speaker 3: Yes, well, I say that, and my wife says, you know, 94 00:05:44,580 --> 00:05:45,900 Speaker 3: she'd leave me if I did. 95 00:05:46,740 --> 00:05:49,460 Speaker 4: Yeah, but you did already, Yes, I did already. 96 00:05:49,700 --> 00:05:50,900 Speaker 3: I did already, I see. 97 00:05:50,940 --> 00:05:53,300 Speaker 4: But so you're lucky you did it before you marry. 98 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:55,500 Speaker 3: Right, that's it, that's it. She doesn't want me to 99 00:05:55,540 --> 00:05:56,300 Speaker 3: know any more than I know. 100 00:05:56,460 --> 00:05:58,940 Speaker 2: Right. Oh yeah, No, I understand that I may and 101 00:05:58,980 --> 00:06:01,500 Speaker 2: it may may be better if both spouses do it 102 00:06:01,580 --> 00:06:02,700 Speaker 2: than if only one does. 103 00:06:02,900 --> 00:06:06,500 Speaker 3: I suppose so. But you know, it has changed very greatly. 104 00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:09,979 Speaker 3: Freud thought he was a great scientist. He thought that 105 00:06:10,140 --> 00:06:12,900 Speaker 3: analysis had to be scientific, so you should stand at 106 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:16,020 Speaker 3: some distance from the patient, not be empathetic, not be 107 00:06:16,100 --> 00:06:20,220 Speaker 3: overly sympathetic, that the patient remain very anxious. And then 108 00:06:20,260 --> 00:06:23,180 Speaker 3: he had these notions of what it was you were 109 00:06:23,220 --> 00:06:27,620 Speaker 3: going to discover, and in particular, these repressed sexual desires 110 00:06:28,340 --> 00:06:30,700 Speaker 3: and as I say that particular line of thought has 111 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:32,460 Speaker 3: just not. 112 00:06:32,020 --> 00:06:34,500 Speaker 4: Fair, that do you not believe in the complex? 113 00:06:35,060 --> 00:06:38,219 Speaker 3: I think the Oedipus complex is probably and many people 114 00:06:38,260 --> 00:06:41,060 Speaker 3: thought this when Freud was alive, including some of his 115 00:06:41,140 --> 00:06:44,260 Speaker 3: competitors like Jung. That's sort of a shorthand for an 116 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:48,620 Speaker 3: awareness that there are conflicts even in the best regulated 117 00:06:48,660 --> 00:06:52,739 Speaker 3: of families. I just reviewed a book which is about 118 00:06:52,740 --> 00:06:56,620 Speaker 3: Freud's visit to America. He became friendly with a man 119 00:06:56,700 --> 00:07:00,460 Speaker 3: named James Jackson Putnam, who was an American neurologist helped 120 00:07:00,500 --> 00:07:04,500 Speaker 3: spread psychoanalysis in this country. And there's a funny correspondence 121 00:07:04,540 --> 00:07:08,020 Speaker 3: where Putnam writes a letter saying that he used to 122 00:07:08,060 --> 00:07:11,500 Speaker 3: have fantasies, dreams that when he grew up he would 123 00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:14,700 Speaker 3: sit in front of a fireplace and have a devoted 124 00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:17,980 Speaker 3: wife and children and so on. And Freud writes back 125 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:21,180 Speaker 3: to the effect of, well, you're you know, you're Sadism 126 00:07:21,220 --> 00:07:26,460 Speaker 3: and masochism obviously are coming to the fore the man 127 00:07:26,460 --> 00:07:31,100 Speaker 3: who would not take yes for an answer, that. 128 00:07:31,460 --> 00:07:32,820 Speaker 4: What's wrong with that fantasy? 129 00:07:32,900 --> 00:07:35,420 Speaker 3: By the way, well it must be a repression of 130 00:07:35,460 --> 00:07:36,100 Speaker 3: the reverse. 131 00:07:36,180 --> 00:07:36,380 Speaker 4: You know. 132 00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:40,540 Speaker 3: Freud could turn anything into the edifice complex. 133 00:07:40,820 --> 00:07:42,900 Speaker 4: All right, so do you or don't you believe in it? 134 00:07:43,420 --> 00:07:45,980 Speaker 3: I don't believe in it in that form. I mean, 135 00:07:45,980 --> 00:07:49,060 Speaker 3: I think that what was valuable about Freud, and I 136 00:07:49,060 --> 00:07:52,179 Speaker 3: think what its contemporaries admired, was that he was very 137 00:07:52,220 --> 00:07:55,900 Speaker 3: open and frank about sex and aggression in an era. 138 00:07:56,100 --> 00:07:59,780 Speaker 3: You know, this wasn't exactly Victorian England, but it was Habsburg, Austria, 139 00:08:00,180 --> 00:08:03,620 Speaker 3: where these matters, although they were widely spoken about by 140 00:08:03,620 --> 00:08:08,620 Speaker 3: the intelligencia, you know, we're still somewhat repressed. And I 141 00:08:08,660 --> 00:08:12,700 Speaker 3: think bringing the possibility of conflict and desire even in 142 00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:15,140 Speaker 3: ordinary intimate circumstances into the did. 143 00:08:15,060 --> 00:08:16,740 Speaker 4: He did he help patience? 144 00:08:17,740 --> 00:08:21,140 Speaker 3: Well, that's an interesting question. You know that his patients, 145 00:08:21,460 --> 00:08:24,660 Speaker 3: the ones he wrote about, almost uniformly did less well 146 00:08:24,660 --> 00:08:27,180 Speaker 3: than he said they did. He was working with very 147 00:08:27,220 --> 00:08:29,820 Speaker 3: sick people. You know, we think of neurosis as a 148 00:08:29,860 --> 00:08:33,140 Speaker 3: mild manner matter, but he was dealing with very disturbed people. 149 00:08:33,620 --> 00:08:36,340 Speaker 3: And researchers have gone and found these patients and they 150 00:08:36,380 --> 00:08:40,980 Speaker 3: went on to be rehospitalized and you know, have a 151 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:43,780 Speaker 3: very spotty careers and so on, and some of them 152 00:08:43,819 --> 00:08:46,500 Speaker 3: lived long enough to be interviewed, and they were really 153 00:08:46,540 --> 00:08:49,260 Speaker 3: still mentally ill at the time of interview many years later, 154 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:52,260 Speaker 3: so I don't think he had miraculous effects on his patients. 155 00:08:52,340 --> 00:08:54,980 Speaker 3: Let's say that there are patients he didn't write about 156 00:08:54,980 --> 00:08:58,260 Speaker 3: who have written memoirs and diaries, and some of them 157 00:08:58,580 --> 00:09:02,940 Speaker 3: say they did quite well with him. But those accounts 158 00:09:02,980 --> 00:09:04,980 Speaker 3: show some other problems, which is that he didn't really 159 00:09:05,020 --> 00:09:09,540 Speaker 3: do psycho analysis. He was somebody who had strong opinions. 160 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:11,940 Speaker 3: He'd give people advice, he'd have them over for dinner, 161 00:09:12,420 --> 00:09:15,460 Speaker 3: he'd lend them money. You know, it didn't look the 162 00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:20,020 Speaker 3: way psychoanalysis he wrote about. It was a different, different thing. 163 00:09:21,179 --> 00:09:23,540 Speaker 2: I'd like to tell you in a nutshell why I 164 00:09:23,660 --> 00:09:28,059 Speaker 2: have always admired him because it often surprises people because 165 00:09:28,060 --> 00:09:32,260 Speaker 2: I'm also very religious, and usually people think there's a 166 00:09:32,340 --> 00:09:36,140 Speaker 2: conflict between Freud and religion. Freud himself was an atheist 167 00:09:36,140 --> 00:09:38,780 Speaker 2: and no use for religion. He thought it was essentially, 168 00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:43,500 Speaker 2: you know, some psychological construct or crutch that we needed, 169 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:47,380 Speaker 2: and that basically God and our Father were interchangeable. How 170 00:09:47,380 --> 00:09:49,140 Speaker 2: we looked at God is how we looked at our father. 171 00:09:49,900 --> 00:09:53,140 Speaker 2: And many people think his worst work is Moses and 172 00:09:53,179 --> 00:09:56,740 Speaker 2: Monotheism anyway, So but I want to tell you in 173 00:09:56,780 --> 00:09:59,980 Speaker 2: a nutshell and have you react. I think that what 174 00:10:00,060 --> 00:10:04,380 Speaker 2: he said was, look, we are really messed up inside, 175 00:10:05,420 --> 00:10:08,820 Speaker 2: and don't walk around with this idealistic notion of the 176 00:10:08,900 --> 00:10:15,220 Speaker 2: Enlightenment that we are you know, basically wonderful beings who 177 00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:18,020 Speaker 2: have just been you know, just been you know, somehow 178 00:10:18,780 --> 00:10:22,500 Speaker 2: ruined by the the economics of our time or by 179 00:10:22,540 --> 00:10:25,900 Speaker 2: our parents. But we are really, we really are a 180 00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:29,420 Speaker 2: mess and that's a religious belief in my opinion as well. 181 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:33,699 Speaker 2: Peter Kramer, the psychiatrist and professor of psychiatry, My guest 182 00:10:33,740 --> 00:10:34,900 Speaker 2: is book Sigmund Freud. 183 00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:36,180 Speaker 4: This is the Ultimate Issues hour. 184 00:10:36,220 --> 00:10:40,980 Speaker 1: We continue this episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right 185 00:10:41,020 --> 00:10:50,540 Speaker 1: after this. Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 186 00:10:50,780 --> 00:10:52,940 Speaker 2: Hi, everybody, this is the Ultimate Issues are on the 187 00:10:52,940 --> 00:10:55,620 Speaker 2: Dennis Prager Show. You can't get much more ultimate than 188 00:10:55,780 --> 00:10:59,820 Speaker 2: the father of psychiatry, psychoanalysis and all the like. 189 00:11:00,860 --> 00:11:01,579 Speaker 4: And there is a. 190 00:11:01,540 --> 00:11:04,780 Speaker 2: New excellent brief biography and you know how much I 191 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:09,060 Speaker 2: adore brevity in writing by Peter Kramer, who is well 192 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:12,020 Speaker 2: known for writing on psychiatry. He's a professor of psychiatry 193 00:11:12,620 --> 00:11:16,500 Speaker 2: at Brann University and in private practice in Providence. By 194 00:11:16,540 --> 00:11:18,380 Speaker 2: the way of the two things, can you say which 195 00:11:18,420 --> 00:11:21,980 Speaker 2: gives you more joy? The teaching of psychiatry or the 196 00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:22,660 Speaker 2: practice of it? 197 00:11:23,980 --> 00:11:26,620 Speaker 3: You know, I love working with patients, I'd say they 198 00:11:26,820 --> 00:11:29,340 Speaker 3: you know. Number two for me, probably even before teaching, 199 00:11:29,420 --> 00:11:32,380 Speaker 3: is writing. I love I write in the morning, I 200 00:11:32,380 --> 00:11:34,699 Speaker 3: see patients in the afternoon, and it's just what I've 201 00:11:34,820 --> 00:11:35,740 Speaker 3: what I wanted to do. 202 00:11:35,980 --> 00:11:38,420 Speaker 4: When do you teach in the evening? Uh? No? 203 00:11:38,460 --> 00:11:39,780 Speaker 3: I do you like tea during the day. 204 00:11:41,420 --> 00:11:43,980 Speaker 4: I was wondering for a while. 205 00:11:43,980 --> 00:11:46,060 Speaker 3: I try to cram at wedge a few things, and 206 00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:49,100 Speaker 3: I got kids. There's a lot going on, but basically 207 00:11:49,140 --> 00:11:51,180 Speaker 3: it's writing in the morning, seeing patients, all right. 208 00:11:51,179 --> 00:11:53,460 Speaker 2: I was saying to you that a lot of religious 209 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:58,219 Speaker 2: people have a big problems with Freud and Freudian psychiatry 210 00:11:58,380 --> 00:12:01,260 Speaker 2: and and the whole, the whole arena of much of 211 00:12:01,260 --> 00:12:02,420 Speaker 2: that psychotherapy. 212 00:12:02,580 --> 00:12:05,660 Speaker 3: No, I think you captured something, which is that you know, 213 00:12:05,820 --> 00:12:11,339 Speaker 3: this is one of these figures who says rationality has 214 00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:14,740 Speaker 3: its limits in human beings, and that is a philosophical 215 00:12:14,780 --> 00:12:17,700 Speaker 3: and religious issue. And you know, science aside, whether you 216 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:20,620 Speaker 3: get it exactly right about dreams or the Oedipus complet 217 00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:24,260 Speaker 3: that issue about our irrationality having a big part in 218 00:12:24,340 --> 00:12:27,380 Speaker 3: our makeup is at the center of Freud. 219 00:12:27,820 --> 00:12:30,500 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I say to my you know, to my 220 00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:35,700 Speaker 2: religious audience, that he, you know, he understands how limited 221 00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:41,140 Speaker 2: we are. He is no romanticist about human nature. And 222 00:12:41,179 --> 00:12:43,780 Speaker 2: that's exactly what I got from religion. 223 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:47,579 Speaker 3: And you know, Freud certainly was, in a certain manner 224 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:50,700 Speaker 3: a good Jew. He never turned his back on Judaism. 225 00:12:50,780 --> 00:12:54,699 Speaker 3: He you know, played cards with his male friends. That 226 00:12:54,820 --> 00:12:58,339 Speaker 3: been a breath every week. He told Jewish jokes. He 227 00:12:58,460 --> 00:13:01,579 Speaker 3: wasn't pretending not to be Jewish just because he was 228 00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:04,380 Speaker 3: an atheist in the sense that all scientists at that 229 00:13:04,460 --> 00:13:07,620 Speaker 3: moment were atheists. That was the that was the stance 230 00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:11,059 Speaker 3: he had contempt for a belief in God. It's true. 231 00:13:11,420 --> 00:13:14,340 Speaker 3: But this wrestling with Moses is also an interesting issue. 232 00:13:14,340 --> 00:13:18,780 Speaker 3: I mean, he got the theological history wrong, he got 233 00:13:18,780 --> 00:13:21,220 Speaker 3: the anthropology wrong. But at least he is trying to 234 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:24,380 Speaker 3: do something very brave in the face of the Nazis. Here, 235 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:27,940 Speaker 3: you know, with this change in Austrian politics, the Nazis 236 00:13:27,940 --> 00:13:31,020 Speaker 3: were at the border, and here is Freud saying, we 237 00:13:31,060 --> 00:13:33,660 Speaker 3: as Jews have to be honest with ourselves. This is 238 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:35,380 Speaker 3: a new way of looking at Moses. I mean there 239 00:13:35,420 --> 00:13:38,260 Speaker 3: was something very touching about doing this, and this was 240 00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:40,460 Speaker 3: really in his old age. I mean he was he 241 00:13:40,580 --> 00:13:45,780 Speaker 3: was one of these bold, outspoken types from you know, 242 00:13:45,860 --> 00:13:47,020 Speaker 3: adolescents till death. 243 00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:50,700 Speaker 2: Give a couple of examples when you and I both 244 00:13:50,780 --> 00:13:53,179 Speaker 2: believe he's been such a powerful force. I mean, you're 245 00:13:53,660 --> 00:13:56,540 Speaker 2: the subtitle is a great subtitle for your book, The 246 00:13:56,540 --> 00:13:58,260 Speaker 2: Making of the Modern Mind. 247 00:13:59,900 --> 00:14:02,740 Speaker 4: Inventor. Yeah, yeah, he he made the modern mind. 248 00:14:02,940 --> 00:14:05,059 Speaker 3: He did, and you know, as I say, he did 249 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:08,140 Speaker 3: it without necessarily being right on the science. He thought 250 00:14:08,179 --> 00:14:11,180 Speaker 3: that these things like the Oedipus complex were discoveries, that 251 00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:14,940 Speaker 3: he discovered natural laws the way Copernicus did or Darwin. 252 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:18,620 Speaker 3: He compared himself to those scientists and to Einstein repeatedly, 253 00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:21,780 Speaker 3: and I think that and to who he was. But 254 00:14:21,860 --> 00:14:24,940 Speaker 3: he captured that sense of there being a lot of 255 00:14:24,980 --> 00:14:30,260 Speaker 3: absurdity in life, of symbols being important, of you know, 256 00:14:30,820 --> 00:14:33,540 Speaker 3: what goes on in modern intellectual studies, you may like 257 00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:37,100 Speaker 3: it or not. Where tag team wrestling may be looked 258 00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:40,340 Speaker 3: at as a subject of serious inquiry. I mean, here 259 00:14:40,380 --> 00:14:43,060 Speaker 3: Freud was looking at jokes and slips of the tongue 260 00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:47,380 Speaker 3: and trying to find basic indicators about the culture and 261 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:52,060 Speaker 3: about the human mind in these very trivial, trivial products 262 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,260 Speaker 3: and trivial events. And that really just has shaped the 263 00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:58,340 Speaker 3: way we look at the objects around us and think 264 00:14:58,380 --> 00:15:00,940 Speaker 3: about I mean, to give the most humble example, say 265 00:15:00,940 --> 00:15:04,900 Speaker 3: you're on a date and the person doesn't show up 266 00:15:04,980 --> 00:15:08,300 Speaker 3: or shows up late and has some sort of quasi 267 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:12,340 Speaker 3: reasonable explanation, you will think, you know, maybe he or 268 00:15:12,380 --> 00:15:15,820 Speaker 3: she is hostile, maybe there's something more going on that 269 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:18,660 Speaker 3: even the person, as he speaks doesn't know about. Well, 270 00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:21,420 Speaker 3: that's freud, the notion of that of the un contract. 271 00:15:21,540 --> 00:15:22,860 Speaker 4: That's such a great example. 272 00:15:23,460 --> 00:15:26,980 Speaker 2: See, it's humbling that that's what I mean, or is 273 00:15:27,020 --> 00:15:29,100 Speaker 2: one of the things that I meant. It is humbling 274 00:15:29,180 --> 00:15:35,260 Speaker 2: to know how much of ourselves we don't know. Yeah, 275 00:15:35,380 --> 00:15:37,140 Speaker 2: that's why, by the way, I said to you, I 276 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:40,580 Speaker 2: would love to undergo psychoanalysis. I want to know Dennis better. 277 00:15:41,220 --> 00:15:43,820 Speaker 3: Well, there's a project you Well, it is, But. 278 00:15:44,060 --> 00:15:47,020 Speaker 2: That's the that's it's not because I'm sick, it's because 279 00:15:47,060 --> 00:15:49,820 Speaker 2: I want It's it's like we like to we like 280 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:54,100 Speaker 2: to explore outer space. To me, psychoanalysis is exploring inner space. 281 00:15:54,540 --> 00:15:57,500 Speaker 3: And I think that probably is why most people undertake 282 00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:01,740 Speaker 3: psychoanalysis as opposed to, say, you know, taking prozac or 283 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,500 Speaker 3: undergoing a brief cognitive therapy. I think if you're going 284 00:16:05,540 --> 00:16:09,420 Speaker 3: four or five days a week, you're looking for some 285 00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:12,220 Speaker 3: real insight and transformation. 286 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:14,380 Speaker 2: But I will tell you this, if I were to 287 00:16:14,460 --> 00:16:17,780 Speaker 2: choose a psychiatrist or psychoanalyst, that's what it would have 288 00:16:17,820 --> 00:16:18,100 Speaker 2: to be. 289 00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:19,820 Speaker 4: I would want a Freudian. 290 00:16:19,340 --> 00:16:21,380 Speaker 3: One h And why is that? 291 00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:24,700 Speaker 2: Because I have I would want them to tap into. 292 00:16:24,940 --> 00:16:26,780 Speaker 2: I don't think it's all nonsense. 293 00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:27,260 Speaker 4: I don't. 294 00:16:27,380 --> 00:16:31,020 Speaker 2: I don't think that all of these almost Kakamami things, 295 00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:33,980 Speaker 2: for example, obviously wouldn't be applicable to me. But I don't. 296 00:16:34,020 --> 00:16:36,540 Speaker 2: I don't know that penis envy is totally nonsense. 297 00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:37,380 Speaker 3: Uh huh. 298 00:16:37,420 --> 00:16:39,460 Speaker 4: Do you think it's not totally nonsense? 299 00:16:39,580 --> 00:16:42,580 Speaker 3: Well, I think it is much too simple. If you 300 00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:45,100 Speaker 3: think of the You know, if you were a woman 301 00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:49,420 Speaker 3: in late nineteenth earliest twentieth century Vienna, and all the 302 00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,500 Speaker 3: power you know, were really in the hands of all 303 00:16:52,580 --> 00:16:55,860 Speaker 3: the explicit power were in the hands of men, you know, 304 00:16:55,940 --> 00:16:59,740 Speaker 3: of course, you might wish that you had some more 305 00:16:59,740 --> 00:17:03,380 Speaker 3: of the benefits that manhood brings, whether that is related 306 00:17:03,460 --> 00:17:07,179 Speaker 3: to thinking, you know that you're having the fantasy that 307 00:17:07,220 --> 00:17:09,139 Speaker 3: your penis was cut off, you know, which was what 308 00:17:09,220 --> 00:17:12,379 Speaker 3: he imagined, that women thought that they were they were 309 00:17:12,379 --> 00:17:14,700 Speaker 3: in a sense wounded or injured. You know that does 310 00:17:14,740 --> 00:17:15,820 Speaker 3: seem a little nonsense. 311 00:17:15,820 --> 00:17:19,659 Speaker 2: Agal, Yeah, I agree with that in the maturer woman. 312 00:17:19,899 --> 00:17:22,220 Speaker 2: I always thought of it more than any younger girl. 313 00:17:23,060 --> 00:17:25,659 Speaker 2: And I must tell you, and you know I'm not I 314 00:17:25,659 --> 00:17:27,859 Speaker 2: don't want to saddle you with this, so you can say, Dennis, 315 00:17:27,899 --> 00:17:30,340 Speaker 2: I completely disagree, and I will never talk to you again, 316 00:17:30,939 --> 00:17:33,859 Speaker 2: or at least not publicly. But but I have viewed 317 00:17:33,939 --> 00:17:37,139 Speaker 2: much of the feminist movement as a form of penis envy. Yeah, 318 00:17:37,580 --> 00:17:43,299 Speaker 2: in that whatever men do, that's what's really valuable, and 319 00:17:43,419 --> 00:17:47,499 Speaker 2: so let us women model ourselves on the male model 320 00:17:47,540 --> 00:17:48,219 Speaker 2: of achievement. 321 00:17:48,739 --> 00:17:50,979 Speaker 3: Yes, I do disagree with you, do you know? I 322 00:17:51,020 --> 00:17:53,259 Speaker 3: think that there's a lot to be said for power, 323 00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:55,819 Speaker 3: and if you're in a culture, and I think this 324 00:17:55,979 --> 00:17:58,260 Speaker 3: is less true now, and you know, you look at 325 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:01,260 Speaker 3: Madeline all right, and kind of Lisa Rice and Magufacture 326 00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:03,419 Speaker 3: and so on, it certainly is less true now. But 327 00:18:03,459 --> 00:18:05,539 Speaker 3: if you look at the culture over the past one 328 00:18:05,619 --> 00:18:08,100 Speaker 3: hundred years, men have had so much more power. And 329 00:18:08,139 --> 00:18:10,619 Speaker 3: then if you go back to times when women really 330 00:18:10,619 --> 00:18:14,220 Speaker 3: couldn't own land or assume certain positions in the culture, 331 00:18:14,260 --> 00:18:18,259 Speaker 3: become professionals of certain sorts, have positions, you know, within religions. 332 00:18:19,459 --> 00:18:21,899 Speaker 3: I think there are lots of reasons women would be 333 00:18:22,060 --> 00:18:23,699 Speaker 3: envious of men without. 334 00:18:23,459 --> 00:18:28,100 Speaker 2: Having Yeah, but the feminist argument has not produced in 335 00:18:28,179 --> 00:18:30,899 Speaker 2: my opinion, the average woman, I don't think, I think 336 00:18:30,979 --> 00:18:34,020 Speaker 2: is less powerful today. She may have a bank account, 337 00:18:34,379 --> 00:18:37,820 Speaker 2: but in terms of her influence. Uh, I mean, I think, 338 00:18:37,899 --> 00:18:42,099 Speaker 2: for example, their women are far more sexualized in public 339 00:18:42,179 --> 00:18:48,019 Speaker 2: life today than they were in Freud's time, right, I mean, 340 00:18:48,060 --> 00:18:50,659 Speaker 2: I mean, look at look at look at what Miss 341 00:18:50,699 --> 00:18:55,659 Speaker 2: America contestant has to wear today compared to fifty years ago. 342 00:18:56,020 --> 00:18:57,979 Speaker 2: In terms of the skimpiness of the bikini. 343 00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:00,780 Speaker 3: Well, you know, that can be degrading or that can 344 00:19:00,820 --> 00:19:03,579 Speaker 3: be liberating. I think that's you know, that's a close one. 345 00:19:04,139 --> 00:19:05,219 Speaker 4: Ah, that is interesting. 346 00:19:05,260 --> 00:19:08,100 Speaker 2: We'll continue in a moment the thoughtful Peter Kramer and 347 00:19:08,139 --> 00:19:12,340 Speaker 2: will take calls one eight Praguer seven seven six his latest. 348 00:19:11,979 --> 00:19:12,859 Speaker 4: Book on Freud. 349 00:19:16,139 --> 00:19:18,379 Speaker 2: You're listening to the Ultimate Issues Hora on the Dennis 350 00:19:18,419 --> 00:19:22,580 Speaker 2: Prager Show, talking about the I think correctly stated by 351 00:19:22,619 --> 00:19:27,140 Speaker 2: the author Peter Kramer, Professor of psychiatry at Brown University, 352 00:19:27,260 --> 00:19:31,139 Speaker 2: the inventor of the modern Mind, and our take on 353 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:35,179 Speaker 2: Freud on psychiatry on all the insights here in a 354 00:19:35,179 --> 00:19:39,300 Speaker 2: free wheeling discussion. We were just talking about penis envy 355 00:19:39,419 --> 00:19:43,580 Speaker 2: and the silly or non silly notions that Freud had, 356 00:19:43,619 --> 00:19:47,220 Speaker 2: and I was saying that if I were to undergo psychoanalysis, 357 00:19:47,219 --> 00:19:50,379 Speaker 2: I would want a Freudian and that I don't fully 358 00:19:50,419 --> 00:19:53,819 Speaker 2: dismiss that notion, especially in light of my view of 359 00:19:53,859 --> 00:19:57,699 Speaker 2: the feminist movement, which I think exhibited it. 360 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:00,379 Speaker 4: And you don't agree, and I didn't think you would. 361 00:20:00,939 --> 00:20:03,340 Speaker 2: And then I asked you, though you spoke about women 362 00:20:03,419 --> 00:20:05,659 Speaker 2: in power, and I said, I thought that the average woman, 363 00:20:05,939 --> 00:20:10,619 Speaker 2: not Madeline Albright, but the average woman Dr Kramer today, 364 00:20:11,260 --> 00:20:15,219 Speaker 2: in fact has less power. And the average girl in 365 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:19,459 Speaker 2: high school and college feels that essentially her greatest power, 366 00:20:19,899 --> 00:20:22,899 Speaker 2: I say, the averag girl, not every girl, is. 367 00:20:22,859 --> 00:20:25,939 Speaker 4: In fact the flaunting of her body. 368 00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:29,979 Speaker 3: Well, let me ask this question. If you could just 369 00:20:30,219 --> 00:20:33,179 Speaker 3: drop down out of the you know, ozone and be 370 00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:37,179 Speaker 3: born at any moment in history as a woman. When 371 00:20:37,219 --> 00:20:40,259 Speaker 3: would that be? Because I think you wouldn't be in 372 00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:42,980 Speaker 3: college for most of history. This is you know, the 373 00:20:43,020 --> 00:20:45,820 Speaker 3: fact that a majority of people in college, I think 374 00:20:46,179 --> 00:20:50,539 Speaker 3: certainly in the selective colleges are are women is absolutely unique. 375 00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:56,820 Speaker 3: There's no moment like that in history. So, uh, you know, lawyers, doctors, 376 00:20:57,699 --> 00:21:00,660 Speaker 3: it's right, well, women have assumed more of the burdens 377 00:21:00,699 --> 00:21:03,059 Speaker 3: of men. But it's but I mean, I don't know 378 00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:04,980 Speaker 3: how you would how you would answer that. But would 379 00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:07,379 Speaker 3: you want to be in the fifties as a housewife 380 00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:08,660 Speaker 3: or or would. 381 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:12,739 Speaker 2: You want to be you know, Well, the truth is 382 00:21:12,899 --> 00:21:15,779 Speaker 2: I don't know. It's a very fair question, and I 383 00:21:15,820 --> 00:21:16,859 Speaker 2: don't know the answer. 384 00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:21,100 Speaker 3: I agree with the downside, and Freud would have agreed. Also. 385 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:23,659 Speaker 3: Freud was very interesting. He thought of as being one 386 00:21:23,699 --> 00:21:26,700 Speaker 3: of these sexual liberation people. I think he was very 387 00:21:26,699 --> 00:21:30,460 Speaker 3: aware of sexual repression, but he wasn't entirely against it. 388 00:21:30,899 --> 00:21:34,419 Speaker 3: He thought that sexual repression in Leonardo DaVinci yes great 389 00:21:34,979 --> 00:21:37,379 Speaker 3: art and science, and he was actually worried that he 390 00:21:37,419 --> 00:21:42,139 Speaker 3: would be misunderstood as being in favor of much more 391 00:21:42,139 --> 00:21:45,859 Speaker 3: sexual directors. He actually was very much of his time 392 00:21:45,899 --> 00:21:46,539 Speaker 3: in that regard. 393 00:21:46,939 --> 00:21:47,979 Speaker 4: Yeah. 394 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:52,300 Speaker 2: And to answer your question, I do an hour every 395 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:54,179 Speaker 2: week on my radio show on happiness. 396 00:21:54,179 --> 00:21:55,100 Speaker 4: I wrote a book on it. 397 00:21:55,179 --> 00:21:58,219 Speaker 2: I am very very concerned with that subject. And I 398 00:21:58,260 --> 00:22:01,059 Speaker 2: don't know if the sum total of female happiness today 399 00:22:01,139 --> 00:22:04,859 Speaker 2: is greater than the sum total of female happiness fifty 400 00:22:04,899 --> 00:22:07,580 Speaker 2: years ago. I really when I say I don't know, 401 00:22:08,139 --> 00:22:10,659 Speaker 2: it's not a euphemistic way of saying it isn't. 402 00:22:10,739 --> 00:22:12,099 Speaker 4: I really don't know. 403 00:22:13,139 --> 00:22:15,379 Speaker 2: But I don't know if all of that I have 404 00:22:15,979 --> 00:22:19,619 Speaker 2: Peter Kramer, I talk to women all the time who did, 405 00:22:19,619 --> 00:22:22,540 Speaker 2: in fact go to did go to graduate school, did 406 00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:26,459 Speaker 2: become doctors, did become lawyers, did become business women, And 407 00:22:27,060 --> 00:22:31,100 Speaker 2: we're and bought the whole idea that profession and vocation 408 00:22:31,739 --> 00:22:35,780 Speaker 2: and professional achievement are roads to happiness, and now find 409 00:22:35,820 --> 00:22:41,019 Speaker 2: themselves at thirty eight years of age alone and not 410 00:22:41,139 --> 00:22:43,540 Speaker 2: quite as easy to find a husband as at twenty eight, 411 00:22:43,659 --> 00:22:47,859 Speaker 2: let alone at that twenty two. And they say to me, 412 00:22:47,939 --> 00:22:50,500 Speaker 2: you know, Dennis, I bought the whole feminist bill of goods, 413 00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:54,179 Speaker 2: and I can't say that my happiness level is terribly high. 414 00:22:54,219 --> 00:22:57,300 Speaker 3: Well, you know, they are these scientists who say happiness 415 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:00,939 Speaker 3: doesn't change much altogether, that it's somehow characteristic that we 416 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,819 Speaker 3: have or don't have at a certain level. You know, 417 00:23:04,859 --> 00:23:07,980 Speaker 3: I think you're capturing what the upside and downside are. 418 00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:11,179 Speaker 3: I think there is less divorce, say in the fifties 419 00:23:11,179 --> 00:23:15,179 Speaker 3: and sixties, but when it happens, it's more catastrophic and 420 00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:18,179 Speaker 3: also harder to get out of abusive marriages, and they're 421 00:23:18,179 --> 00:23:21,340 Speaker 3: more probably more of them or is accepted. 422 00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:23,419 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was just yeah, that's true. 423 00:23:24,139 --> 00:23:27,420 Speaker 3: You know, it's it's a mixed The culture is very difficult. 424 00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:29,940 Speaker 3: We certainly do have problems in our culture, and one 425 00:23:29,939 --> 00:23:34,179 Speaker 3: of them is, you know, what happens to the to 426 00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:37,979 Speaker 3: the forty fifty sixty year old woman who's single and 427 00:23:37,979 --> 00:23:38,580 Speaker 3: doesn't want. 428 00:23:38,459 --> 00:23:41,819 Speaker 2: To be Why would somebody go to a psychiatrist in 429 00:23:41,859 --> 00:23:44,139 Speaker 2: your opinion, and not a psychologist. 430 00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:47,699 Speaker 3: Well, I think medication is one of the issues, you know. 431 00:23:47,780 --> 00:23:54,419 Speaker 3: That is to say, these medicines like prozac, zolof you know, 432 00:23:54,459 --> 00:23:58,019 Speaker 3: the other ones you're familiar with, are often very helpful 433 00:23:58,060 --> 00:24:01,499 Speaker 3: in helping people get out of dead ends or past roadblocks, 434 00:24:01,619 --> 00:24:05,219 Speaker 3: and certainly to treat major mental illness. Like you know, 435 00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:07,939 Speaker 3: my prior book before this was called Against Depression, and 436 00:24:07,979 --> 00:24:10,579 Speaker 3: it was about the notion that depression is an entirely 437 00:24:10,699 --> 00:24:13,739 Speaker 3: legitimate disease that affects us throughout the body, and so 438 00:24:13,859 --> 00:24:17,059 Speaker 3: medication is important there. And I think the quality control 439 00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:19,619 Speaker 3: on the training of psychiatrists is that they go through 440 00:24:19,659 --> 00:24:24,780 Speaker 3: medical school, which you know it is fairly stringent. Stringent barrier. 441 00:24:24,899 --> 00:24:27,300 Speaker 2: All right, we'll continue in a moment. Take your calls 442 00:24:27,340 --> 00:24:30,259 Speaker 2: as well. Peter Kramer, his book is on Freud. This 443 00:24:30,340 --> 00:24:34,100 Speaker 2: is the Ultimate Issues Hour. Your challenge is to psychiatry. 444 00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:36,139 Speaker 2: Are welcome to on the Dennis Prager Show. 445 00:24:38,859 --> 00:24:42,219 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 446 00:24:46,699 --> 00:24:51,740 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 447 00:24:51,939 --> 00:24:54,459 Speaker 2: You're listening to the Dennis Prager Show, and this is 448 00:24:54,459 --> 00:24:59,139 Speaker 2: the Ultimate Issues Hour. It's forty four minutes past the hour. 449 00:25:00,139 --> 00:25:03,460 Speaker 2: My guest is Peter Kramer. We're talking about the whole 450 00:25:03,540 --> 00:25:08,219 Speaker 2: world of Sigmund Freud and how he changed life and 451 00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:10,459 Speaker 2: he is I think it's a great term inventor of 452 00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:12,979 Speaker 2: the modern mind. And that is the short biography that 453 00:25:13,020 --> 00:25:15,300 Speaker 2: he has in fact written about Freud, and I recommend 454 00:25:15,340 --> 00:25:18,899 Speaker 2: it to you. And it is certainly no hey geography, 455 00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:22,019 Speaker 2: which is a term for biography of the Saints. He 456 00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:25,699 Speaker 2: hardly regards a Freud as a saint. I have a 457 00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:28,139 Speaker 2: challenge I'd like to post to you as a psychiatrist, 458 00:25:28,219 --> 00:25:30,899 Speaker 2: because I am a big defender of psychiatry to many 459 00:25:30,939 --> 00:25:31,900 Speaker 2: of my callers. 460 00:25:31,619 --> 00:25:33,459 Speaker 4: Who have a lot of dubious views of it. 461 00:25:34,020 --> 00:25:40,499 Speaker 2: But I have an increasing worry about the entire psychotherapeutic world. 462 00:25:41,379 --> 00:25:45,779 Speaker 2: And that is two it's there. They're related. One is 463 00:25:47,659 --> 00:25:50,219 Speaker 2: I have met too many people who have who have 464 00:25:50,859 --> 00:25:55,260 Speaker 2: undergone some form of psychotherapy, who have had their victim 465 00:25:55,300 --> 00:26:02,100 Speaker 2: status reinforced. And I believe that they literally come out 466 00:26:02,139 --> 00:26:06,020 Speaker 2: worse from therapy than they went in because they now 467 00:26:06,060 --> 00:26:09,619 Speaker 2: blame their problems on everybody else, and they now have 468 00:26:09,780 --> 00:26:14,419 Speaker 2: confirmation from a doctor that everybody else is responsible for 469 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:18,540 Speaker 2: their problems. And the other is the whole modus operandi 470 00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:22,859 Speaker 2: of a psychotherapist is the opposite of anybody trying to 471 00:26:22,899 --> 00:26:27,180 Speaker 2: get to the truth. Can you imagine a detective analyzing 472 00:26:27,219 --> 00:26:30,980 Speaker 2: a homicide and only questioning one witness? 473 00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:31,500 Speaker 4: Right? 474 00:26:32,659 --> 00:26:36,659 Speaker 3: Well, I think psychotherapy, you know, is aware of those problems. 475 00:26:36,659 --> 00:26:40,739 Speaker 3: You probably know Paul mcew, the former head of psychiatry 476 00:26:40,739 --> 00:26:45,659 Speaker 3: at Johns Hopkins, who was very critical of this victimization tendency. 477 00:26:45,699 --> 00:26:49,060 Speaker 3: And I think most psychotherapists and by the way, I 478 00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:52,580 Speaker 3: should I said something about psychiatry versus psychology before. I 479 00:26:52,580 --> 00:26:57,980 Speaker 3: have great respect for psychotherapists of all stripes, psychologists, social workers, 480 00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:02,939 Speaker 3: clinical neuros specialists. They're terrific people up and down the line. 481 00:27:02,979 --> 00:27:05,939 Speaker 3: I think most of psychotherapy really is to get people 482 00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:09,819 Speaker 3: back functioning better. And the measure of psychotherapy is that 483 00:27:09,859 --> 00:27:12,139 Speaker 3: you're doing better, not that you feel sorry or for 484 00:27:12,219 --> 00:27:15,179 Speaker 3: yourself or have more people to blame, but you know 485 00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:19,259 Speaker 3: that you're out and about achieving your goals. So I 486 00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:22,580 Speaker 3: think that you know that is is that side of 487 00:27:22,619 --> 00:27:25,659 Speaker 3: the question, and when the second part is the. 488 00:27:26,219 --> 00:27:30,180 Speaker 2: Second part is the modus operandi where you're only interviewing 489 00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:32,500 Speaker 2: one witness to the reality, right. 490 00:27:32,619 --> 00:27:36,019 Speaker 3: I mean, that's true, and I think that there's a 491 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:38,060 Speaker 3: reason for it, which is a lot of what goes 492 00:27:38,100 --> 00:27:40,700 Speaker 3: on in psychotherapy has to do with empathy. It has 493 00:27:40,739 --> 00:27:44,739 Speaker 3: to do with not necessarily knowing the external truth, but 494 00:27:45,780 --> 00:27:48,819 Speaker 3: really sitting and seeing the world from the perspective of 495 00:27:48,859 --> 00:27:51,580 Speaker 3: the other person, and that turns out to be powerful 496 00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:54,379 Speaker 3: in ways that sometimes gets people to move off the dime. 497 00:27:55,219 --> 00:27:57,580 Speaker 3: But psychotherapists have thought a lot about this, and there 498 00:27:57,659 --> 00:28:01,019 Speaker 3: certainly are therapies where collateral, you know, people are brought 499 00:28:01,100 --> 00:28:05,780 Speaker 3: in either to be interviewed about what's gone on, or 500 00:28:05,859 --> 00:28:08,219 Speaker 3: where people are sent out sort of in fact finding 501 00:28:08,260 --> 00:28:11,379 Speaker 3: missions in their own lives to interview people and bring 502 00:28:11,419 --> 00:28:13,580 Speaker 3: back the results. And then there are couple therapies and 503 00:28:13,659 --> 00:28:17,179 Speaker 3: family therapies where you hear plenty from other people, and 504 00:28:17,260 --> 00:28:21,419 Speaker 3: group therapies where people get also plenty of back about, 505 00:28:21,939 --> 00:28:26,060 Speaker 3: you know, their characteristic ways of tripping themselves up. So 506 00:28:26,100 --> 00:28:29,020 Speaker 3: there's some variety there, but I think both those criticisms 507 00:28:29,060 --> 00:28:30,419 Speaker 3: also are are valid. 508 00:28:30,859 --> 00:28:34,139 Speaker 2: All right, let's go to some calls. Matt in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. 509 00:28:34,179 --> 00:28:37,019 Speaker 2: You're on with doctor Peter Kramer and Dennis Prager High. 510 00:28:37,179 --> 00:28:39,860 Speaker 5: Hi, how are you both doing? I just I wanted 511 00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:41,940 Speaker 5: to comment. I thought it was fascinating when I was 512 00:28:41,979 --> 00:28:44,860 Speaker 5: in college learning about freyd that here's someone who I 513 00:28:44,979 --> 00:28:48,060 Speaker 5: absolutely think is disgusting when it comes to his comments 514 00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,820 Speaker 5: on society and different atheistic views. But at the same time, 515 00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:56,180 Speaker 5: in an age of increasing materialism, he was this person 516 00:28:56,219 --> 00:28:58,820 Speaker 5: coming up with this new notion that there's this huge 517 00:28:58,860 --> 00:29:03,660 Speaker 5: cauldron of unexplored ideas in a time when people wanted 518 00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:06,140 Speaker 5: to just say, oh, it's just the human animal, it's 519 00:29:06,219 --> 00:29:09,180 Speaker 5: just the mind, there's no spirit. He actually, I think, 520 00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:13,180 Speaker 5: without meaning to, did a better job of describing what 521 00:29:13,340 --> 00:29:15,900 Speaker 5: the Christian world or and even the Jewish world would 522 00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:18,700 Speaker 5: call the spirit and the soul and the mind and 523 00:29:18,820 --> 00:29:22,780 Speaker 5: the battle between the conscience and the and the flesh, 524 00:29:23,180 --> 00:29:25,900 Speaker 5: better than than almost anywhere outside of the Bible. 525 00:29:26,380 --> 00:29:29,020 Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting, you know, I don't start with your premises, 526 00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:32,499 Speaker 3: but the you know, the notion that people are well 527 00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:34,860 Speaker 3: worth exploring, that you're going to discover a lot of 528 00:29:34,900 --> 00:29:38,820 Speaker 3: complexity that the mind has layers. He certainly brought those 529 00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:41,900 Speaker 3: concepts to the four A lot of what Freud did 530 00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:46,700 Speaker 3: was not truly novel. Their philosophers have gone back and said, look, 531 00:29:46,739 --> 00:29:49,100 Speaker 3: the ego, the in the superrego look a lot like 532 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:52,660 Speaker 3: categories that Socrates was said to have spoken about having 533 00:29:52,739 --> 00:29:56,739 Speaker 3: to do with reason and desire and you know, social awareness, 534 00:29:57,140 --> 00:30:00,940 Speaker 3: and that what he's doing is really ancient Greek philosophy 535 00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:05,979 Speaker 3: in this modern uh you know, vocabulary. So I think 536 00:30:06,340 --> 00:30:09,660 Speaker 3: he is one of these figures in a tradition, you know, 537 00:30:09,739 --> 00:30:12,459 Speaker 3: in a tradition of Western ways of looking at the self. 538 00:30:13,459 --> 00:30:17,620 Speaker 2: Okay, over to Minneapolis and Thomas. Hi, Thomas, you're all 539 00:30:17,660 --> 00:30:19,100 Speaker 2: with Peter Kramer and Dennis Praeger. 540 00:30:20,140 --> 00:30:22,660 Speaker 3: I'm a I added Christian, and I think that there's 541 00:30:22,739 --> 00:30:27,140 Speaker 3: way more toward what makes a person's mental makeup than. 542 00:30:27,020 --> 00:30:27,660 Speaker 4: The sex drive. 543 00:30:28,380 --> 00:30:28,499 Speaker 3: Mm. 544 00:30:29,180 --> 00:30:30,860 Speaker 4: Well, I think so did Freud. 545 00:30:30,940 --> 00:30:33,500 Speaker 3: And so and by the way, so does modern psychiatry 546 00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:36,140 Speaker 3: and psychology. I think the sex drive is important. There 547 00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:39,219 Speaker 3: seem to be, you know, drives for self preservation, all 548 00:30:39,340 --> 00:30:42,380 Speaker 3: kinds of hungers. And then there's curiosity. I think one 549 00:30:42,420 --> 00:30:44,780 Speaker 3: of the one of the big things that Freud tried 550 00:30:44,780 --> 00:30:48,459 Speaker 3: to eliminate that we very much recognize as sort of 551 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:53,340 Speaker 3: striving for competence and mastery and understanding, which curiosity, which 552 00:30:53,380 --> 00:30:56,499 Speaker 3: really seems also to be innate in human beings, you know, 553 00:30:56,540 --> 00:30:58,620 Speaker 3: whatever their sexual state. 554 00:30:59,340 --> 00:31:03,219 Speaker 2: Among the patients that you see, why would you say 555 00:31:03,260 --> 00:31:08,739 Speaker 2: the greatest single problem in general is today. 556 00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:12,260 Speaker 3: Well, I've written a lot about depression and minor depression, 557 00:31:12,380 --> 00:31:14,340 Speaker 3: so it's a skewed sample. I see a lot of 558 00:31:14,380 --> 00:31:18,499 Speaker 3: people with mood disorders, and I think some of that 559 00:31:18,780 --> 00:31:22,140 Speaker 3: is related to their circumstances, which can have been quite bad, 560 00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:25,059 Speaker 3: you know, both growing up and currently and some of 561 00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:29,019 Speaker 3: it is probably genetics. So we're looking at you know, 562 00:31:29,020 --> 00:31:31,900 Speaker 3: we're looking at compex puts problems. There are people who 563 00:31:31,940 --> 00:31:35,460 Speaker 3: come in with what you're i think pointing toward, which 564 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:38,740 Speaker 3: are these more existential problems. I think they're men who 565 00:31:38,780 --> 00:31:40,980 Speaker 3: are very successful in their career and say, but I'm 566 00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:44,059 Speaker 3: not satisfied what really is there in life? And you 567 00:31:44,100 --> 00:31:46,860 Speaker 3: point out women who find limitations in the life, and 568 00:31:47,660 --> 00:31:49,459 Speaker 3: you know you see a fair share of that. 569 00:31:49,540 --> 00:31:51,700 Speaker 2: All right, let me recommend your book again. It is 570 00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:56,220 Speaker 2: Freud in the Eminent Lives series by Harper Collins, Peter Kramer, 571 00:31:56,300 --> 00:31:58,540 Speaker 2: the author, and I look forward to our next meeting. 572 00:31:58,860 --> 00:32:00,500 Speaker 4: Thank you, You're very welcome. 573 00:32:00,860 --> 00:32:02,700 Speaker 2: I'll have some thoughts on this, and I'd like to 574 00:32:02,739 --> 00:32:06,100 Speaker 2: explain to you why I have incorporated Freud into my 575 00:32:06,219 --> 00:32:09,700 Speaker 2: own religious worldview when we come back on the Ultimate 576 00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:11,540 Speaker 2: Issues hour of the Dennis Praeger Show. 577 00:32:13,620 --> 00:32:16,940 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 578 00:32:21,459 --> 00:32:26,380 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 579 00:32:26,540 --> 00:32:31,380 Speaker 2: All right, ay, my friends, Dennis Prager here, I like 580 00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:33,380 Speaker 2: to explain to you, in light of this being the 581 00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:37,259 Speaker 2: Ultimate Issues hour and the interview, I just conducted with 582 00:32:37,340 --> 00:32:41,180 Speaker 2: Peter Kramer, the psychiatrist who just wrote this short, fine 583 00:32:41,219 --> 00:32:45,300 Speaker 2: book on Freud. A lot of religious people like myself, 584 00:32:45,459 --> 00:32:48,540 Speaker 2: who are like myself and their religiosity, are surprised at 585 00:32:48,580 --> 00:32:52,380 Speaker 2: my openness to Freud. And I'll tell you in a 586 00:32:52,459 --> 00:32:56,180 Speaker 2: nutshell why I explained it earlier, and I'll develop it 587 00:32:56,219 --> 00:33:02,299 Speaker 2: further now. Freud knocks one of the most destroys. Not knocks, 588 00:33:02,380 --> 00:33:06,019 Speaker 2: he destroys one of the most pernicious myths of the 589 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:09,140 Speaker 2: secular humanistic age known as the Age of Enlightenment or 590 00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:11,020 Speaker 2: the Age of Reason, and that is that we are 591 00:33:11,060 --> 00:33:17,100 Speaker 2: basically good souls, we are basically good, and that we 592 00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:24,100 Speaker 2: are basically rational. And he shows how naive those views are. 593 00:33:24,380 --> 00:33:28,420 Speaker 2: He did not have a particularly optimistic view of human nature, 594 00:33:28,580 --> 00:33:32,780 Speaker 2: nor do I, nor does the Judeo Christian value system. 595 00:33:33,580 --> 00:33:36,940 Speaker 2: One of the reasons for the need for religion and 596 00:33:37,020 --> 00:33:41,500 Speaker 2: for the need for God is in fact, because we 597 00:33:41,580 --> 00:33:47,060 Speaker 2: are so messy inside, and it gives us a way 598 00:33:47,060 --> 00:33:49,380 Speaker 2: to act independent. 599 00:33:48,739 --> 00:33:50,499 Speaker 4: Of our psychological state. 600 00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:53,420 Speaker 2: You may be morose, and you may be unhappy, and 601 00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:56,700 Speaker 2: you may be embittered, and you may have been wounded 602 00:33:56,739 --> 00:33:59,660 Speaker 2: by a mother or father, a spouse, a child, a brother, 603 00:33:59,780 --> 00:34:02,900 Speaker 2: a sister, or a friend. But you still have to 604 00:34:03,060 --> 00:34:06,100 Speaker 2: act in a certain way. And there still is a 605 00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:10,060 Speaker 2: good God who governs the universe. And so I take 606 00:34:10,219 --> 00:34:13,900 Speaker 2: all of his insights. I just don't end with his insights. 607 00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:18,140 Speaker 2: I take them all, and I realize that religion gives 608 00:34:18,140 --> 00:34:23,419 Speaker 2: me a behavioral way to live. It tells me how 609 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:26,980 Speaker 2: to live, how to make a good life despite whatever 610 00:34:27,260 --> 00:34:31,380 Speaker 2: goes on in my psyche. It's not a clean place. 611 00:34:31,500 --> 00:34:34,339 Speaker 2: I can make peace with that. I make peace with 612 00:34:34,420 --> 00:34:37,339 Speaker 2: the fact that the human being is filled with a 613 00:34:37,380 --> 00:34:42,979 Speaker 2: lot of if you will, awful thoughts, sinful thoughts, whatever. 614 00:34:42,660 --> 00:34:43,140 Speaker 4: They may be. 615 00:34:44,060 --> 00:34:46,860 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, and that is why there is religion 616 00:34:46,940 --> 00:34:50,500 Speaker 2: to help me act in a way that I don't 617 00:34:50,580 --> 00:34:55,620 Speaker 2: live in the world of those of those thoughts. That's 618 00:34:55,620 --> 00:34:59,060 Speaker 2: a great thing, But I'm not going to be one 619 00:34:59,060 --> 00:35:01,580 Speaker 2: of those religious people who live in denial or one 620 00:35:01,580 --> 00:35:04,020 Speaker 2: of those secular people who live in denial about what 621 00:35:04,100 --> 00:35:10,620 Speaker 2: our nature is. And so Freud helped. You just can't 622 00:35:10,819 --> 00:35:13,899 Speaker 2: end with it. He doesn't give you. He doesn't give 623 00:35:13,940 --> 00:35:18,379 Speaker 2: you answers nearly as much as he gives you the 624 00:35:18,380 --> 00:35:23,899 Speaker 2: pathology that make up the human being. Dennis Prager here 625 00:35:23,940 --> 00:35:27,180 Speaker 2: tomorrow night. I speak in in your Belinda, California and 626 00:35:27,219 --> 00:35:31,979 Speaker 2: Orange County, California. It's on the Prager Radio dot com 627 00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:35,380 Speaker 2: or call seven one four six nine three oh seven 628 00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,819 Speaker 2: seven O seven one four six nine three oh seven 629 00:35:38,940 --> 00:35:42,660 Speaker 2: seven O tomorrow night, Orange County. Thanks for listening, my friends. 630 00:35:42,940 --> 00:35:45,820 Speaker 2: I'm Dennis Prager. 631 00:35:55,299 --> 00:35:59,660 Speaker 1: This has been timeless wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit Dennisprager 632 00:35:59,660 --> 00:36:03,219 Speaker 1: dot com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses 633 00:36:03,259 --> 00:36:07,259 Speaker 1: in classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational 634 00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:07,900 Speaker 1: Bibles