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Speaker 1: Coming up on Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic.

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Speaker 2: I remember waking up the first time and just knowing

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Speaker 2: that my body, that there was something wrong with me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, what? Am I sick? This is terrible. And

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Speaker 2: the person who was giving me the pill said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're going through withdrawal. I had no clue. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know about this. And they were like, oh, if you

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Speaker 2: get more, it'll go away instantly and you'll feel better.

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Speaker 2: And sure enough.

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Speaker 3: This started a cycle, a crazy cycle of life that

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Speaker 3: took me from doing things that I never would have

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Speaker 3: done to stealing, ripping off.

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Speaker 2: Your family, manipulating, becoming a con man. I mean, as

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Speaker 2: far gone as you can imagine.

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Speaker 1: Hello, hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 1: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel, and I

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Speaker 1: am the Christian who became an alcoholic, not the other

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Speaker 1: way around. Here, we get radically vulnerable about addiction, recovery,

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Speaker 1: messy sanctification, and all the things we turn to instead

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Speaker 1: of Jesus because we're all addicted to something. You'll hear raw,

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Speaker 1: honest conversations from those who have struggled, those who help

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Speaker 1: those who struggle, and why aiming for Jesus and getting

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Speaker 1: sobriety thrown in is actually the best goal. So let's

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Speaker 1: get right into this week's episode. We'll be right back

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Speaker 1: after this. You know, when I started my nonprofit, Veritas Recovery, veritasrecovery.org,

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Speaker 1: if you're interested in learning more, um, You kind of

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Speaker 1: go through these things where they're like, okay, what's your

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Speaker 1: mission statement? What's your vision statement? And as I was

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Speaker 1: creating the vision statement with my wife and the early

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Speaker 1: board members, really what that looked like was I envision

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Speaker 1: a gospel-centered recovery movement. Like that's how the vision statement works.

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Speaker 2: Starts.

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Speaker 1: And, you know, there's a lot of ways to fulfill that.

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Speaker 1: And I think one of the ways is through, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have these six pillars and one of them is

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Speaker 1: equipping and empowering and, and education and just even teaching what,

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Speaker 1: what is gospel centered recovery? What is it not? Why

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Speaker 1: does it matter? What is, does it make room for

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Speaker 1: things like a, like all that kind of stuff. And,

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Speaker 1: but what, one of those is really almost like, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's like church planting movements and there's church

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Speaker 1: planting organizations, and I've just had this increased desire, like,

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Speaker 1: what does it look like to create and have a

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Speaker 1: gospel-centered recovery planting movement, right? And as I've been praying

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Speaker 1: through that and thinking through that, one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I've noticed is that there are, um, There are

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Speaker 1: these organizations, these pastors, these ministries out there that a

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Speaker 1: lot of them are just not connected. Right. And so

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Speaker 1: as I envision and think about the movement, part of

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Speaker 1: it is, yes, like training and teaching and starting and planting. Right.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's also just connecting people who have

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Speaker 1: similar missions and helping them realize that they are not alone.

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Speaker 1: And so I met with a pastor out in California.

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Speaker 1: I had dinner with him earlier this week that's just

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Speaker 1: doing some incredible things. And, you know, I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people that don't realize what he's doing, right?

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Speaker 1: And just what he's doing could be a cool video

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Speaker 1: and story in itself. Like, it's awesome. And so I

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Speaker 1: think one of those other places that I've been introduced

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Speaker 1: to in the last year is something called America's Keswick.

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Speaker 1: It's been around since the late 1800s, and it's a

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Speaker 1: gospel-centered treatment facility. And I was introduced to it through

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Speaker 1: one of our former guests, Arman Kaimachin, who had went there.

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Speaker 1: And he told me about his buddy Robert who works

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Speaker 1: there and who had gone through there and that he

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Speaker 1: had a story there. And so today our guest is Robert,

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Speaker 1: the guy that Armand was telling me about, Robert Kenney.

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Speaker 1: And he now works at America's Keswick, which is an interesting–

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about the name. It's spelled differently than what

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Speaker 1: it sounds like, and we'll get into that. But he's

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Speaker 1: going to talk about his story first of all, his

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Speaker 1: story of starting with kind of gateway drugs and ending

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Speaker 1: with shooting heroin. and where that led him. And then

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Speaker 1: how he found this gospel-centered recovery ministry and how it

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Speaker 1: differs from what he experienced in secular recovery. And I just,

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Speaker 1: I mean, we go some great places. We end up

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Speaker 1: in a gospel presentation. It's awesome. And so I'm excited

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Speaker 1: for you to hear Robert's story, to hear what they're

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Speaker 1: doing out on the East Coast there with America's Keswick.

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Speaker 1: And if you are interested, I think it's a great

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Speaker 1: place that you maybe you're listening to this and it

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Speaker 1: could be a place that you could find maybe that

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Speaker 1: missing thing. Right. Which I know what that missing thing is.

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Speaker 1: But even if you've tried other Christian centers, right, like

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Speaker 1: sometimes the Lord, it's it's it's he's he's bringing us

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Speaker 1: and breaking us down and you may have to do

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Speaker 1: some other ones and take some other steps. and it's

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Speaker 1: not just like a magic formula. So I would encourage

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Speaker 1: you to check them out at americaskeswick.org, K-E-S-W-I-C-K. Before we

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Speaker 1: get there, I talked about my nonprofit, Veritas Recovery, some

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Speaker 1: really exciting things happening this fall from the video series

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Speaker 1: that we're releasing with RightNow Media. We have some resources

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Speaker 1: available now immediately for you. If you go to veritasrecovery.org,

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Speaker 1: If you would like to support the ministry, which helps

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Speaker 1: keep this podcast going, which helps keep a lot of

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Speaker 1: things going, would you please consider $ 5, $ 10, $ 50, $ 25,

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Speaker 1: whatever donation to help keep things going. So with all

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Speaker 1: that said, and without further ado, Robert Kenny. Robert, thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast.

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Speaker 1: It's great to be here with you. I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: hear your story. I'm excited to hear what you're doing

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Speaker 1: at America's Keswick as well. So thank you for joining.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, John. This is great.

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Speaker 1: You know, I did an intro a little earlier, but

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Speaker 1: I always love people to introduce themselves as well. And

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Speaker 1: so why don't you tell the audience who you are,

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Speaker 1: where you are and what you do?

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Speaker 2: So my name is Robert Kenney. I am the director

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Speaker 2: of partner care at America's Keswick. And we are a

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Speaker 2: ministry that uses biblical teaching to cultivate a deeper relationship

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Speaker 2: with Jesus Christ through our addiction recovery, through our conference ministry,

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Speaker 2: through the events that we host and through outreach. And

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Speaker 2: so my specific role is to connect people who love

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Speaker 2: this ministry, keep them tied to what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the ministry, give them updates, things like that. church presentations.

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Speaker 2: We do a lot of fundraising, things like that. I'll

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Speaker 2: share a little more throughout this time about our addiction

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Speaker 2: recovery programs, but they're a free program. And so it's

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Speaker 2: supported by God through his people and it's all for

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Speaker 2: his glory. And it's an amazing ministry. I absolutely love it.

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Speaker 2: Go to americaskezik.org. You can look us up and see

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Speaker 2: all the good stuff on there.

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Speaker 1: And I will say though, they pronounce it Kezik, but

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Speaker 1: it's K-E-S-S-W-I.

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Speaker 2: Wait, wait. Oh no, sorry. What is it? K-E-S-W-I-C-K.

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Speaker 1: Okay, one S. K-E-S-W-I-C.

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Speaker 2: So the name, I get that a lot. Why is

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Speaker 2: the W silent? And we have come to terms and

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Speaker 2: understanding that the W is silent because it's where God

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Speaker 2: gets the W, okay? The truth is, though, we have

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Speaker 2: been in existence as an addiction recovery since 1897. That's

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Speaker 2: a long time ago. And so in 1897, it started

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Speaker 2: with addiction recovery with the colony of mercy. It's our

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Speaker 2: men's program. And, uh, about 102 years ago, they started

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Speaker 2: conference ministry. And when they started conference ministry, they looked

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Speaker 2: around the world and, uh, to see who was doing

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Speaker 2: conference ministry well. And there is, if you've heard of, uh, England,

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Speaker 2: there's Keswick, England, and that Keswick's actually all over the world, but, um,

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Speaker 2: We are separate from them in their beliefs. They've kind

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Speaker 2: of gone the way of this holiness movement, like perfectionism,

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Speaker 2: and we don't believe that. We're our own. We're not

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Speaker 2: affiliated with the Keswick movement by no means, but we

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Speaker 2: saw how they would have these gatherings, like a tent revival,

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Speaker 2: like a conference where they would have people come from

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Speaker 2: all over and hear a speaker. And so that's what

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Speaker 2: we wanted to emulate. And so we had America's version

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Speaker 2: of it, and we called it America's Keswick. That's great.

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Speaker 2: Separate from their theology, same idea of gathering. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is where God gets the W. I love that.

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Speaker 2: America's Keswick.

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Speaker 1: So before we get more to, because I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about just how you guys integrate faith, right? Like

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Speaker 1: how you integrate faith in a treatment setting, right? I

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Speaker 1: love talking about that. But before we get that, you

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Speaker 1: talk about God getting the W. Well, listen, God got

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Speaker 1: the W in your life as well. And I would

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Speaker 1: love to hear your story of struggle. and how Jesus

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Speaker 1: really reached down and grabbed you before we even get

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Speaker 1: to any of that other stuff.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. I love to share my testimony of how God

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Speaker 2: saved me. So I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware, in

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Speaker 2: a broken home, family divorce from a young age. Um,

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Speaker 2: and it was just chaotic, pure chaotic in my house. And, uh,

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Speaker 2: growing up, um, I didn't get much attention. I'd say

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Speaker 2: my father wasn't around. It kind of got, I could

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Speaker 2: get away with whatever I wanted. My mom didn't really

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Speaker 2: discipline us. And, um, so I can remember from a

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Speaker 2: young age, like lashing out, doing things, stealing from the store,

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Speaker 2: eventually smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol from young, uh, marijuana girls fights,

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Speaker 2: leading to more serious drugs. And it's just this progression, right. Uh,

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Speaker 2: just going downhill. Um, when I was a young adult,

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Speaker 2: I would say I was introduced to opiates and, um,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is crazy. Like, uh, they sit in

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Speaker 2: a party atmosphere. Here's an Oxycontin. It was the rave then.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So you start taking Oxycontin and sniffing Oxycontin. And, um,

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Speaker 2: What they don't tell you when you start with these

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Speaker 2: drugs is that, hey, it's fun while the party's going,

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Speaker 2: but as soon as you don't have it anymore, after

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Speaker 2: a few days of doing this stuff, you're going to

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Speaker 2: go through withdrawal. And this was something physically that I

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Speaker 2: wasn't prepared for. And so going through a physical withdrawal,

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Speaker 2: I remember waking up the first time and just knowing

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Speaker 2: that my body, that there was something wrong with me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, What am I sick? This is terrible. And

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Speaker 2: the person who was giving me the pill said, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're going through withdrawal. I had no clue. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know about this. And they were like, oh, if you

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Speaker 2: get more to go away instantly and you'll feel better.

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Speaker 2: And sure enough, this started a cycle, a crazy cycle

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Speaker 2: of life. That took me from doing things that I

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Speaker 2: never would have done to, you know, as simple as stealing,

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Speaker 2: ripping off your family, manipulating, becoming a con man. I mean,

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Speaker 2: as far gone as you can imagine.

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Speaker 1: When you say becoming a con man, what do you

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Speaker 1: mean there?

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Speaker 2: What does that look like? Begging for money, making up stories, manipulating,

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Speaker 2: things like that. And so, as a... As I, in drugs,

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Speaker 2: started doing drugs heavily. And again, this took me places

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Speaker 2: that I, things I never thought I would have done.

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Speaker 2: Walking into a store and stealing massive amounts, you know,

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Speaker 2: to get money or manipulating family, telling them, making up stories.

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Speaker 2: How old were you? Started drugs probably like 19, 19

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Speaker 2: years old with opiates. um, before that, you know, as

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Speaker 2: early as 12, I was experimenting with weed, marijuana and drinking. Um,

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Speaker 2: as I got older though, mid teens, you know, sniffing hair, uh,

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Speaker 2: not heroin, sniffing, uh, cocaine parties, you know, while you're drinking. And, uh,

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Speaker 2: but once I let the opiates in, man, I graduated

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Speaker 2: to another level of just who cares. And, um, When

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Speaker 2: those opiates, when the pills run out because either your

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Speaker 2: dealer runs out or the price of them, you just

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Speaker 2: can't afford because they're expensive. And someone says, hey, you know,

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Speaker 2: heroin is actually a lot cheaper. It lasts, you know,

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Speaker 2: longer and you don't need as much. And so I

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Speaker 2: went to heroin, started doing heroin in Wilmington, found some spots.

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Speaker 2: And I'm like, this was cheaper and it was expensive. Um,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a whole lifestyle that goes along with

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Speaker 2: that too. The, the, the thrill of the rush, you know,

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Speaker 2: you can be chased, uh, cops. There's all, you know, this,

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Speaker 2: it's crazy. And this is normal in my opinion at

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Speaker 2: that time. Um, and then even sniffing heroin when, uh,

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Speaker 2: it gets expensive. Cause then you start sniffing multiple bags

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Speaker 2: at a time. And all of a sudden they're like,

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Speaker 2: someone says, Hey, if you shoot it with a needle

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Speaker 2: into your vein. you don't need as much and it

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Speaker 2: lasts much longer and it's a much higher, you get higher.

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Speaker 2: And so I graduated to IV use and the progression

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Speaker 2: is just even saying it now today. So we're just,

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Speaker 2: it reminds me how far gone a person can go

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Speaker 2: apart from the grace of God. And then when we're,

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Speaker 2: you know, in our own selfish desires, fulfilling the desires

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Speaker 2: and the flesh.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: And so, Shooting heroin. The end of my addiction, I

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Speaker 2: was roaming the streets of Camden, New Jersey. I would

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Speaker 2: it was sick and twisted and I would go out

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Speaker 2: to Camden in certain times of the day early in

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Speaker 2: the morning. I knew where there was like, hey, at

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Speaker 2: this block, at this time on this day, they gave

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Speaker 2: out samples for free. And just to let people know,

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Speaker 2: you know, and they know what they're doing. The drug

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Speaker 2: dealers know, you know. how to bring people in. And so, uh,

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Speaker 2: it was just, I was just like a zombie at

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Speaker 2: the end of this. And this is after I had

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Speaker 2: been through numerous rehabs, detoxes, because let's face it after, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, running for so long, you run out of money,

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Speaker 2: you run out of resources, you have nowhere to turn.

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Speaker 2: And when you are deeply, uh, sick, withdrawing, and you

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Speaker 2: need help when there doesn't seem to be any way

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Speaker 2: to get high again, I would just go check into

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Speaker 2: a detox and, And these detoxes, you know, thank God

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Speaker 2: they have the medical equipment to, you know, ability to

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Speaker 2: give you enough medicine to slowly wean you off and detox, right?

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Speaker 2: So it's not, you're not kicking in a hotel room

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Speaker 2: like Johnny Cash anymore. Now you go to a detox

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Speaker 2: and they wean you down. But the problem with that

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Speaker 2: is I would go get freshened up in a sense,

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Speaker 2: we'll say, where I would get sober and And then

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Speaker 2: I would hit the streets again with a lower tolerance.

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Speaker 2: And this is actually a danger for many people. Maybe

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Speaker 2: listen into this right now. Let this be a warning.

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Speaker 2: When people go into these detoxes, they get sober, at

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Speaker 2: least to a point. They get detoxed. And then they

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Speaker 2: go back to the street thinking that they can do

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Speaker 2: the same amounts that they were doing before they went

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Speaker 2: into the overdose. And this is how a lot of

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Speaker 2: people are dying today. I've overdosed a number of times.

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Speaker 2: And by God's grace, he's kept me alive.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: As I would go through these places and I would

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Speaker 2: go to a one week detox or even a 30

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Speaker 2: day secular rehab, I would get clean and go back

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Speaker 2: and get high again. And here's the thing. Here's the difference.

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Speaker 2: Even what America's Keswick teaches, what the Bible teaches compared to,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion, the world, the secular view on addiction

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Speaker 2: is when you are in these rooms and And mind you,

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Speaker 2: I am not bashing NA and AA by no means.

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Speaker 2: If your highest goal in life is sobriety, you can

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Speaker 2: achieve it through AA and NA. If that's your highest goal.

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Speaker 2: But the calling in my life was much higher than sobriety.

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Speaker 2: It was much higher than, hey, don't get high. Your

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Speaker 2: call now is Jesus Christ. It was a much higher calling.

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Speaker 2: And so when I go to these rehabs and detoxes,

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Speaker 2: they weren't really dealing with the issues. They would tell you, hey,

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Speaker 2: Your name is and you're an addict and you've been

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Speaker 2: that way when you were born. You'll be that way

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Speaker 2: until you die. And it never really sat right with

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Speaker 2: me in the time. It's easy for someone who's shooting

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Speaker 2: dope the day before to say, hey, I'm an addict

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Speaker 2: because it fits exactly what I am. But what I

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Speaker 2: really love is that what we teach here is not

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Speaker 2: the things you've done that defines who you are. It's

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Speaker 2: who you are that defines the things you will do. And, uh,

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Speaker 2: if we belong to Christ, you know, we have a

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Speaker 2: new identity. It's not in ourselves. It's not in the

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Speaker 2: things we've done in the past. Um, but in these rehabs,

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Speaker 2: that's what you're taught in a, in a, that's what

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Speaker 2: you taught, you know, Hey, I'm an addict or I'm

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Speaker 2: an alcoholic. And I know people with gender, like, uh,

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Speaker 2: decades of sobriety and they still call themselves an alcoholic.

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Speaker 2: And I have a real struggle with that. Um, um, anyway,

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Speaker 2: So in these rehabs and detoxes going from place to place,

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Speaker 2: they never really dealt with the heart issue of what

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Speaker 2: was going on in my life. They would get you

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Speaker 2: cleaned up. They would tell you work these steps. And

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Speaker 2: here's the thing with that. Again, sobriety, if it's your

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Speaker 2: number one goal in life, you can accomplish it, but

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Speaker 2: you're going to white knuckle it. I ran into a

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Speaker 2: guy last year on the boardwalk and I was trying

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Speaker 2: to talk about Jesus with him and he wanted nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with it. As he walked away, I said,

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Speaker 2: how does a heroin addict stop shooting dope? And he

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Speaker 2: turned around and he listened to me. He was like,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean? And I shared a little bit

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Speaker 2: of my story and then he shared a little bit

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Speaker 2: of his story. And the beautiful thing was this man

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Speaker 2: has pretty much a parallel story of mine. We were

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Speaker 2: about the same age. We started getting high around the

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Speaker 2: same time. We got sober around the same time, all

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Speaker 2: same drugs, same area. And like, I'm sure we crossed

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Speaker 2: paths in our beat in my BC years. But as

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Speaker 2: we talked about sobriety, the things that he says and

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Speaker 2: the things that I say were completely different. He said,

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Speaker 2: how often do you go to meetings? I said, well,

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Speaker 2: I haven't been to a meeting in about 10 years.

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Speaker 2: And I said, I go to church on Sunday. I

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Speaker 2: have a family. I go to, you know, I got

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Speaker 2: in some more detail, but before the conversation ended, I said, Dylan,

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Speaker 2: let me just ask you a question. When was the

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Speaker 2: last time, and this guy goes to meetings every day, practically.

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Speaker 2: I said, when was the last time you thought about

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Speaker 2: getting high? And he looked at me with the most

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Speaker 2: sincere response. He said, clenching his fist and looking at

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Speaker 2: me with such passion he said every day i fight

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Speaker 2: it every day and then he said to me what

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Speaker 2: about you when was the last time you thought about

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Speaker 2: getting high and i was like probably about 10 years

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Speaker 2: ago about 10 years ago i don't think about getting

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Speaker 2: high you know when you talk about something constantly you

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Speaker 2: call yourself the addict constantly it's it's it's even mentally

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Speaker 2: it's going to do something to you it's going to

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Speaker 2: wear on you it's going to remind you um i

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Speaker 2: i someone told me this one time When you're driving

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Speaker 2: in your car, the rearview mirror is only this big

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Speaker 2: where the windshield is huge. And that is so that

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Speaker 2: we keep our eyes before us with maybe a little

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Speaker 2: reminder of where we came from. And I like I

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Speaker 2: love I live with that perspective because I don't want

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Speaker 2: to stare at my past the whole time. You know,

350
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Speaker 2: keeping a small perspective, in my opinion, is the best view.

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Speaker 2: So in sharing with this guy, it just really drew

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Speaker 2: my heart to God and understanding what he's done. But

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Speaker 2: let me backtrack. When I was in rehabs and detoxes,

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Speaker 2: there was one instance where I was at a place

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Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania and these sweet little ladies would come in

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Speaker 2: every week and they would have a Bible study at

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Speaker 2: this secular rehab. Mind you, the rehab, they didn't really

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Speaker 2: necessarily want them there. They just allowed them to come

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Speaker 2: in and they would come and tell all the residents, hey,

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Speaker 2: if you want, there are these Christians that are here

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Speaker 2: right now and These Christians, they have a Bible study.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to go, but if you want to,

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Speaker 2: you can. So that's down the hall if you want

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Speaker 2: to go to this Bible study. And I had no

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Speaker 2: intentions on going to this Bible study. But man, these

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Speaker 2: little ladies were crafty. They walked in with cupcakes and

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Speaker 2: brownies and donuts. And so as they talked... As they

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Speaker 2: passed by, I said, can I have a brownie? And

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Speaker 2: the lady's like, I'm sorry, son. These are for the

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Speaker 2: Bible study. If you want one, you're going to have

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Speaker 2: to come to the Bible study. So there I was,

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Speaker 2: led as a sheep to the slaughter. And we went

373
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Speaker 2: to this Bible study. These ladies, faithful. Again, nobody was

374
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Speaker 2: paying them to come here. They did this on their own.

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Speaker 2: I believe they were answering a call from God to

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Speaker 2: bring the gospel to the secular rehab. And as they

377
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Speaker 2: opened the word of God, and started sharing, I think

378
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Speaker 2: I interrupted the whole meeting. I said, stop, stop, stop, stop.

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Speaker 2: And they probably were taken back like, what's this guy

380
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Speaker 2: going to do right now? As I'm shoving cupcakes and

381
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Speaker 2: brownies in my mouth. I said, I need to go

382
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Speaker 2: to a place, a rehab or something that does this.

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Speaker 2: Because what you're telling me does not It's not the

384
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Speaker 2: same thing as what they're telling me in this rehab

385
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Speaker 2: I'm in right now. This rehab I'm in right now,

386
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Speaker 2: they have me going from meeting to meeting, telling me

387
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Speaker 2: how I'm a loser, how I've always been a loser.

388
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Speaker 2: I need to fight really hard to not be a

389
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Speaker 2: drug addict. And I'll always be a drug addict. But

390
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Speaker 2: what you're telling me is that if I place my

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Speaker 2: faith in Jesus Christ, that he will not only forgive

392
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Speaker 2: all of those things that I've done, which I have

393
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Speaker 2: a hard time reconciling, I have a hard time some

394
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Speaker 2: of the bad things I've done in my life. You're

395
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Speaker 2: telling me I would be forgiven from those things like

396
00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:24,290
Speaker 2: a etch-a-sketch. You just shake it up and it's gone.

397
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Speaker 2: And you're telling me that if I place my trust

398
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Speaker 2: in Jesus Christ, my life today will be different and

399
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Speaker 2: that I no longer need to live with that past

400
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Speaker 2: and I can live with a new life. And they're like,

401
00:23:37,260 --> 00:23:39,640
Speaker 2: that's what we're telling you. And I was like, well,

402
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:41,700
Speaker 2: I can get on board with that. So I'll, I'll

403
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Speaker 2: give it a shot. What's what I got to lose.

404
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Speaker 1: Right.

405
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:47,490
Speaker 2: So, uh, fast forward a few weeks later, I find

406
00:23:47,550 --> 00:23:52,090
Speaker 2: myself at America's Keswick at the colony of mercy. How'd

407
00:23:52,109 --> 00:23:55,129
Speaker 2: you get there? Well, there, there's a, the process to

408
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:58,710
Speaker 2: come in, you would just call and set up the intake. Yeah. And, uh,

409
00:23:58,990 --> 00:24:02,490
Speaker 2: so I fill out the application and, through a weight process.

410
00:24:02,510 --> 00:24:05,790
Speaker 2: There was a waiting period at that time. Sometimes it's shorter,

411
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Speaker 2: sometimes it's longer. And so they got me in a

412
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Speaker 2: few weeks later and never looked back. And the beautiful

413
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Speaker 2: thing is I walk in this place and I have never,

414
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Speaker 2: usually go to rehabs and detoxes and it's almost like

415
00:24:18,780 --> 00:24:22,820
Speaker 2: a jailhouse mentality. It's, you know, I've got arrested a

416
00:24:22,859 --> 00:24:26,220
Speaker 2: few times and there is this like jailhouse mentality about

417
00:24:26,260 --> 00:24:29,689
Speaker 2: most rehabs, detoxes. but I walked in here and there

418
00:24:29,710 --> 00:24:33,570
Speaker 2: were people welcoming me. They were people that told me

419
00:24:33,630 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 2: that they saw that my name was on the board,

420
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Speaker 2: meaning that I was coming in, I was on the

421
00:24:37,670 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: list and they were praying for me and that they

422
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: cared for me and that started sharing about the love

423
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,479
Speaker 2: of God with me. And these are people who had

424
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 2: only been there for maybe a few weeks more than me.

425
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,500
Speaker 2: I just got there and people and the embrace that

426
00:24:52,540 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: I got, the welcoming I got, it was genuine. It

427
00:24:55,780 --> 00:24:58,450
Speaker 2: wasn't fake. It wasn't from a lifestyle that I came

428
00:24:58,510 --> 00:25:01,929
Speaker 2: from trying to please people, to manipulate people, to get

429
00:25:01,990 --> 00:25:05,030
Speaker 2: what I wanted from them. These people didn't want anything

430
00:25:05,090 --> 00:25:10,650
Speaker 2: from me. And I'm like, this is weird. And it's awesome.

431
00:25:11,109 --> 00:25:14,290
Speaker 2: And this is what I want. And so, but the

432
00:25:14,330 --> 00:25:17,950
Speaker 2: teaching at the colony, what would happen is every day

433
00:25:17,970 --> 00:25:20,620
Speaker 2: we wake up and we have a nice big breakfast,

434
00:25:20,740 --> 00:25:23,350
Speaker 2: which to be honest with you is contrary to what

435
00:25:23,390 --> 00:25:26,750
Speaker 2: most people in active addiction, right? They're not thinking about nutrition.

436
00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:29,850
Speaker 2: We wake up with a nice hot breakfast and we

437
00:25:29,890 --> 00:25:33,250
Speaker 2: start the day off with devotions. One of the chaplains

438
00:25:33,430 --> 00:25:35,300
Speaker 2: or a guest speaker would come in and they would

439
00:25:35,410 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 2: share that morning's devotion. And then we would go to

440
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,460
Speaker 2: work and there's different work departments and this is a

441
00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:47,719
Speaker 2: work therapy program as well. So we teach the Bible

442
00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:49,860
Speaker 2: and And then we work. And what's great about this

443
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:54,580
Speaker 2: is throughout the devotion, we could learn some things. But

444
00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: when you go to the work therapy, you start to

445
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 2: apply those things. And so they go hand in hand

446
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,970
Speaker 2: and it's really good. And even through the curriculum, there's

447
00:26:02,970 --> 00:26:07,150
Speaker 2: 16 different weeks. So it's four months. There's 16 different topics.

448
00:26:07,530 --> 00:26:13,669
Speaker 2: So one whole week, you're learning one topic like victory

449
00:26:13,710 --> 00:26:16,449
Speaker 2: over temptation is one week. And this is great. This

450
00:26:16,510 --> 00:26:19,050
Speaker 2: is what men and women coming out of addiction need

451
00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:22,429
Speaker 2: to know how to have victory over their temptations. Because

452
00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:26,370
Speaker 2: temptation is we're all susceptible to being tempted, right? Even

453
00:26:26,410 --> 00:26:28,950
Speaker 2: Jesus himself was tempted in all points yet without sin.

454
00:26:29,250 --> 00:26:31,889
Speaker 2: And so here we see every person is tempted and

455
00:26:31,910 --> 00:26:34,850
Speaker 2: we need to learn how to have victory over temptation.

456
00:26:34,930 --> 00:26:37,970
Speaker 2: So all week long, we'll hear messages in the morning

457
00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:41,010
Speaker 2: about victory over temptation. So one of those messages in

458
00:26:41,050 --> 00:26:44,270
Speaker 2: the morning might be about reading from Matthew 4 as

459
00:26:44,369 --> 00:26:46,649
Speaker 2: Jesus was in the wilderness, right? He was tempted by

460
00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:49,310
Speaker 2: Satan himself. How did he overcome it? By using the

461
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:51,710
Speaker 2: word of God. And so we'll have a whole message

462
00:26:51,820 --> 00:26:54,380
Speaker 2: just on that. And so that's one of the days.

463
00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:59,020
Speaker 2: And then also we memorize scripture every single day. And

464
00:26:59,140 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 2: the scripture that we memorize every day, it goes along

465
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 2: with whatever theme it is for that week. And so

466
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: some of the scripture that I've memorized then and I

467
00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:09,300
Speaker 2: still have to heart today would be like from Corinthians.

468
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,580
Speaker 2: Let him who thinks he stands take he lest he fall.

469
00:27:13,010 --> 00:27:17,130
Speaker 2: No temptation. has overtaken you except such as common demand.

470
00:27:17,490 --> 00:27:19,590
Speaker 2: But God is faithful, who will not allow you to

471
00:27:19,630 --> 00:27:22,450
Speaker 2: be tempted beyond what you are able, but with a

472
00:27:22,510 --> 00:27:25,189
Speaker 2: temptation will make a way of escape. And so we

473
00:27:25,609 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: memorize God's word, right? And we sit under the teaching

474
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: of God's word, and then we go to work. And

475
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: like I said, after learning God's word, you know, intellectually,

476
00:27:38,530 --> 00:27:40,709
Speaker 2: We get to live it out practically as we do

477
00:27:40,730 --> 00:27:43,970
Speaker 2: the work therapy. And so that was one of the

478
00:27:44,010 --> 00:27:47,980
Speaker 2: most beautiful aspects of the work therapy. There's different departments

479
00:27:48,340 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: and it's menial work. It's not like.

480
00:27:51,810 --> 00:27:54,830
Speaker 2: It's not hard laborious work. It's very mean to work.

481
00:27:54,850 --> 00:27:58,730
Speaker 1: It's not a work camp or on the chain gang.

482
00:27:59,130 --> 00:28:01,850
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they have like housekeeping, maintenance in the kitchen.

483
00:28:01,869 --> 00:28:05,630
Speaker 2: So you're either raking pine needles or planting flowers, which

484
00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:07,989
Speaker 2: even in that, there's some beautiful things because a lot

485
00:28:08,010 --> 00:28:11,010
Speaker 2: of people who have been so destructive their whole life,

486
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:14,210
Speaker 2: now they have an opportunity to do some work and

487
00:28:14,250 --> 00:28:16,869
Speaker 2: make it look pretty. And there's a level of every

488
00:28:16,930 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: day when that person walks past that display, whatever the

489
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: work that they've done, They can take joy in that knowing, hey,

490
00:28:23,450 --> 00:28:26,220
Speaker 2: I helped do this. You know, this is some the

491
00:28:26,260 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: work of my hands. And and there's there's a level

492
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,260
Speaker 2: in there of like, wow, God is a creator. He

493
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,419
Speaker 2: created this universe and this whole universe declares the glory

494
00:28:34,460 --> 00:28:34,820
Speaker 2: of God.

495
00:28:34,859 --> 00:28:35,020
Speaker 1: Right.

496
00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: And the same way when our creator, God, has we

497
00:28:39,180 --> 00:28:43,580
Speaker 2: reflect his image when we create things, when we do things.

498
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,940
Speaker 2: And it's just it's a beautiful illustration of reflecting God,

499
00:28:46,980 --> 00:28:50,930
Speaker 2: I think. Um, so the work therapy teaching the Bible.

500
00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:53,810
Speaker 2: So for it's four months long and I gone, I

501
00:28:53,830 --> 00:28:56,830
Speaker 2: have gone through this four month program and what's great

502
00:28:56,870 --> 00:28:59,670
Speaker 2: about as you're nearing the end of the four months,

503
00:29:01,250 --> 00:29:03,910
Speaker 2: if you want to stay longer, they have another program

504
00:29:03,970 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: called discipleship. Now discipleship, uh, I signed up to stay

505
00:29:07,940 --> 00:29:10,979
Speaker 2: for discipleship and, uh, I was actually in maintenance when

506
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: I was in the colony and in maintenance, uh, when

507
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,610
Speaker 2: I got here was February in 2015 and in In

508
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:21,250
Speaker 2: that February, we had some snow. So the beginning of

509
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: my time in the colony, we were shoveling snow. And

510
00:29:25,620 --> 00:29:27,940
Speaker 2: that's how I remember the beginning of the work therapy.

511
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: And at the end of my four-month stay, I was

512
00:29:30,380 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 2: planting flowers and pulling weeds. And that was the end

513
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:35,470
Speaker 2: of my stay. So I got to see a whole

514
00:29:36,010 --> 00:29:39,550
Speaker 2: seasons of different working. And what was beautiful when I

515
00:29:39,610 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: signed up for discipleship, discipleship is like, hey, you move

516
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,270
Speaker 2: from the colony to a house that's on the property

517
00:29:47,310 --> 00:29:50,530
Speaker 2: called Faith Cottage. And at Faith Cottage, it's almost like

518
00:29:50,550 --> 00:29:52,910
Speaker 2: a Christian dorm. That's the best way to say it.

519
00:29:54,490 --> 00:29:58,710
Speaker 2: You get more freedom. You get more responsibility. we start

520
00:29:58,770 --> 00:30:00,930
Speaker 2: to get a, they even start to pay them a

521
00:30:01,010 --> 00:30:05,690
Speaker 2: stipend while they're here. And so being in the discipleship program,

522
00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:09,020
Speaker 2: they moved me into housekeeping and housekeeping was great because

523
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,950
Speaker 2: they essentially gave me a whole set of keys for

524
00:30:10,970 --> 00:30:13,100
Speaker 2: the whole property and a radio and said, Hey, whenever

525
00:30:13,140 --> 00:30:15,860
Speaker 2: we call you, need you to go do whatever. So

526
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,580
Speaker 2: a lot of times it was, Hey, somebody got locked

527
00:30:17,620 --> 00:30:21,860
Speaker 2: out of the room or our conference ministry guests come

528
00:30:21,940 --> 00:30:23,900
Speaker 2: in all the time. And I'll share a little bit

529
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,660
Speaker 2: more about this later, but the conference ministry is, goes

530
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:29,890
Speaker 2: hand in hand with the addiction recovery is like the

531
00:30:30,130 --> 00:30:34,670
Speaker 2: residents in the addiction recovery can work for the conference ministry.

532
00:30:35,110 --> 00:30:38,990
Speaker 2: And so it's beautiful dynamic in itself. And so at

533
00:30:39,030 --> 00:30:41,250
Speaker 2: this point, after going through the four month program and

534
00:30:41,270 --> 00:30:44,390
Speaker 2: they gave me pretty much all the keys to America's Keswick,

535
00:30:44,970 --> 00:30:47,620
Speaker 2: I'm like, wow, it's great to know that as someone

536
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 2: sees the work that God has done in you, that

537
00:30:50,140 --> 00:30:54,470
Speaker 2: they're willing to trust you enough to You know, if

538
00:30:54,490 --> 00:30:56,530
Speaker 2: you're faithful with little, you also be faithful with much.

539
00:30:56,930 --> 00:30:59,590
Speaker 2: And this is one of those mile markers that God

540
00:30:59,650 --> 00:31:04,530
Speaker 2: was letting me experience, taking me from nobody wanting me around,

541
00:31:05,410 --> 00:31:09,750
Speaker 2: rejected by every person I came in contact with, friends, family.

542
00:31:09,770 --> 00:31:11,910
Speaker 2: I didn't really have any friends at that point. The family,

543
00:31:11,950 --> 00:31:15,190
Speaker 2: they were kind of done with me. And here I am.

544
00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:19,350
Speaker 2: This place who had pointed me to Christ and God

545
00:31:19,370 --> 00:31:21,580
Speaker 2: had done some amazing things in my life. Now they're

546
00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:25,980
Speaker 2: allowing me to serve in this big responsibility, in my opinion.

547
00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:29,300
Speaker 2: And so God drew me even in that. And so

548
00:31:29,340 --> 00:31:32,830
Speaker 2: I did the three month program after the three month program.

549
00:31:33,690 --> 00:31:38,590
Speaker 2: They selectively offer sometimes an internship. to work at America's Keswick.

550
00:31:38,610 --> 00:31:41,620
Speaker 2: The internship, it's not guaranteed you'll get a job at

551
00:31:41,650 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: the ministry, but it's kind of a preparation for somebody

552
00:31:45,540 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: who is considering their life in ministry. And so I

553
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,620
Speaker 2: know people that have gone through the internship, didn't get

554
00:31:51,660 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: a job at Keswick, but went to go serve the

555
00:31:53,420 --> 00:31:57,460
Speaker 2: Lord somewhere else. And so it is a great preparatory

556
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,950
Speaker 2: way of preparing yourself for ministry in your life. And

557
00:32:02,970 --> 00:32:05,010
Speaker 2: so I did an internship for a year and then

558
00:32:05,050 --> 00:32:07,820
Speaker 2: I got hired on And what are you in my

559
00:32:07,860 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: life going through different departments that I worked here for?

560
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,180
Speaker 2: I started off in guest services where I would serve

561
00:32:14,220 --> 00:32:18,130
Speaker 2: the guests at our conferences and our retreats. And then

562
00:32:19,290 --> 00:32:22,230
Speaker 2: I started working in the development, which we call partner care.

563
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:23,890
Speaker 2: And the Lord has brought me up to become the

564
00:32:23,950 --> 00:32:28,330
Speaker 2: director of the department. So that's kind of my testimony. Wow.

565
00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:30,070
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot more in there that I

566
00:32:30,090 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: didn't tell how I met my wife. I've got four

567
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: kids now. My life is completely opposite now of who

568
00:32:37,020 --> 00:32:40,020
Speaker 2: I was then when I first came in here. I'm

569
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: actually on the pastoral staff of Colts Neck Community Church

570
00:32:44,820 --> 00:32:48,190
Speaker 2: in Colts Neck, New Jersey. I served with Pastor Chris Durkin.

571
00:32:48,730 --> 00:32:51,370
Speaker 2: And I'm I'm an intern there and the hopes is,

572
00:32:51,410 --> 00:32:54,470
Speaker 2: you know, possible ordination and some schooling. And so, uh,

573
00:32:55,130 --> 00:32:57,650
Speaker 2: that's what the Lord's doing actively right now. My, my

574
00:32:57,690 --> 00:33:00,990
Speaker 2: kids are a blessing to me and, um, I have

575
00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: the opportunity to raise kids. Um, in spite of what

576
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:07,340
Speaker 2: I've went through as a child, I can teach them

577
00:33:07,380 --> 00:33:10,300
Speaker 2: things that I wish I had known, but direct them

578
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,239
Speaker 2: in the way that they should go. And so, uh,

579
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:15,980
Speaker 2: I started to talk a little bit about our conference ministry,

580
00:33:16,780 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: the conference ministry, um, We have every summer, we have

581
00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:25,300
Speaker 2: five consecutive weeks where we have pastors from all over

582
00:33:25,340 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 2: the world come and speak. And we have guests that

583
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:31,390
Speaker 2: will come and pay and stay here like a vacation,

584
00:33:31,450 --> 00:33:33,730
Speaker 2: come have a retreat with us. And in the morning,

585
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:36,090
Speaker 2: there's a message. In the evening, there's a message. In

586
00:33:36,110 --> 00:33:38,830
Speaker 2: the daytime, there's just tons of cool activities. Like we

587
00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:42,610
Speaker 2: have lakes that people can swim in, fish in, boat in.

588
00:33:43,010 --> 00:33:45,550
Speaker 2: We have a big activity center with like a competition

589
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:49,370
Speaker 2: size pool, hot tub, sauna, basketball, volleyball. We got all

590
00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:52,710
Speaker 2: kinds of stuff. And so the conference ministry is great.

591
00:33:53,010 --> 00:33:55,110
Speaker 2: And even the best part is that the residents, as

592
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:58,610
Speaker 2: they're going through the program, they're able to use the

593
00:33:58,730 --> 00:34:02,830
Speaker 2: not only the activity center with all of its amenities

594
00:34:02,890 --> 00:34:04,950
Speaker 2: and the lake and things like that during certain times.

595
00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:07,830
Speaker 2: But they also come and sit under the teaching of

596
00:34:07,950 --> 00:34:11,500
Speaker 2: all of these world renowned speakers that come here. And

597
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:14,259
Speaker 2: so they're fed, like I said, in the morning devotions

598
00:34:15,030 --> 00:34:18,029
Speaker 2: throughout the year. But when we have our conferences, they

599
00:34:18,070 --> 00:34:21,310
Speaker 2: come up as well and they join in some of

600
00:34:21,330 --> 00:34:23,469
Speaker 2: the sessions in the evenings. And so they'll sit on

601
00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:26,210
Speaker 2: the teachings this year of some of these great speakers

602
00:34:26,250 --> 00:34:28,170
Speaker 2: who will be here this this summer.

603
00:34:29,630 --> 00:34:29,790
Speaker 1: Yeah.

604
00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:32,430
Speaker 2: So that's kind of my story. Also a plug for

605
00:34:32,489 --> 00:34:36,100
Speaker 2: America's Keswick. Yeah. Yeah. Well, wow.

606
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot we can go back and

607
00:34:38,260 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: I do want to I do want to go back

608
00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:42,390
Speaker 1: and Um, and touch on some things, but man, thank you.

609
00:34:42,570 --> 00:34:44,390
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. Right. I mean, I think,

610
00:34:44,930 --> 00:34:48,250
Speaker 1: I think especially too, like, you know, in my story,

611
00:34:48,270 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: it was 2023, right. Was when I really hit rock

612
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: bottom and, and, you know, you're talking about 2015 and

613
00:34:55,380 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: it's just like, it's not that long ago, you know,

614
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 1: and to see what the Lord has done in your life,

615
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,859
Speaker 1: in my life. Um, you know, I say that, that

616
00:35:05,989 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: one of my biggest, um, sadnesses, if you will, is

617
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,969
Speaker 1: that people see this version of me. Right. And they don't,

618
00:35:14,390 --> 00:35:17,310
Speaker 1: they don't know or see the version of me. Right.

619
00:35:17,390 --> 00:35:20,350
Speaker 1: That was, I mean, and I was hiding it. Right.

620
00:35:20,390 --> 00:35:22,390
Speaker 1: So even at that time, like my best, you know,

621
00:35:22,430 --> 00:35:25,210
Speaker 1: my best, my best friends, you know, I have a neighbor,

622
00:35:25,410 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: for example, who's like, you know, he, he says this jokingly,

623
00:35:28,219 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: he's like, I don't think you were an alcoholic.

624
00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

625
00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:33,180
Speaker 1: And I'm just like, yeah, you're right. Because I was

626
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: hiding it really well. Right. But you don't see, you know,

627
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,060
Speaker 1: people don't see the version of me that my wife saw. Right.

628
00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:41,899
Speaker 1: Where I was hiding it, right? Where I was manipulative,

629
00:35:41,940 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: where I was lying and kind of all that stuff.

630
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:48,049
Speaker 1: And so in some senses, I love that, like, you know,

631
00:35:48,070 --> 00:35:51,290
Speaker 1: if you're watching this on the VeritasDaily.com, like you see

632
00:35:51,350 --> 00:35:53,330
Speaker 1: Robert and you're like, well, Robert doesn't look like he was,

633
00:35:53,770 --> 00:35:55,250
Speaker 1: you know, a raging heroin addict.

634
00:35:55,390 --> 00:35:55,830
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

635
00:35:55,870 --> 00:35:58,010
Speaker 1: And I probably don't look like I was a raging alcoholic.

636
00:35:58,130 --> 00:36:00,350
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Because we have these visions

637
00:36:00,690 --> 00:36:03,690
Speaker 1: of who we think or what we think those people

638
00:36:03,750 --> 00:36:05,590
Speaker 1: in a sense look like or even now.

639
00:36:05,780 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: Right. And so. Yeah.

640
00:36:07,390 --> 00:36:09,630
Speaker 1: It's just awesome to see. You had talked about– I

641
00:36:09,650 --> 00:36:12,930
Speaker 1: want to go back to what you were talking about

642
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:16,300
Speaker 1: when kind of the difference that you saw between secular

643
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,060
Speaker 1: recovery and what I call gospel-centered recovery, and I didn't

644
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:23,839
Speaker 1: come up with that, but what Keswick is and so forth.

645
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,090
Speaker 1: When you think about and when you compare those two–

646
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 1: and I think you said something really insightful. It's something

647
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:31,980
Speaker 1: that I like to say as well. It's like you

648
00:36:32,020 --> 00:36:34,460
Speaker 1: can get sober. If you want to get sober with

649
00:36:34,540 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: AA and you go to a treatment facility, you can

650
00:36:36,739 --> 00:36:40,169
Speaker 1: get sober, right? But my ultimate goal is not sobriety, right?

651
00:36:40,230 --> 00:36:43,790
Speaker 1: My ultimate goal is Jesus, and you aim for Jesus

652
00:36:43,850 --> 00:36:46,630
Speaker 1: and you get sobriety thrown in. And he offers the

653
00:36:46,650 --> 00:36:51,469
Speaker 1: most flourishing, fulfilled life when we worship the God that

654
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: we're created to worship, right? So– I'd be curious. I

655
00:36:55,739 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: didn't go through traditional programs or traditional means. When you

656
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: compare and when you look back at your time in

657
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:09,740
Speaker 1: traditional treatment facilities versus Keswick, what really stands out to you?

658
00:37:09,820 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this.

659
00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:16,739
Speaker 2: So I started to mention, first off, what you said

660
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:19,250
Speaker 2: a minute ago was so true because I go places

661
00:37:19,390 --> 00:37:21,930
Speaker 2: and sometimes for my job, I'll wear a tie and

662
00:37:21,969 --> 00:37:25,029
Speaker 2: a jacket And then I'll start to share about my testimony.

663
00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:27,969
Speaker 2: I can't imagine that you were ever a drug addict.

664
00:37:28,050 --> 00:37:31,290
Speaker 2: I went out of Grumman, Camden, New Jersey. And I'm like,

665
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:34,270
Speaker 2: you know, here's my best phrase for that. Well, that's

666
00:37:34,310 --> 00:37:37,810
Speaker 2: because that man is dead. I'm no longer that man.

667
00:37:37,830 --> 00:37:41,469
Speaker 2: And so, and it is a short time, but so

668
00:37:41,489 --> 00:37:44,569
Speaker 2: long as well at the same time. As far as

669
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:49,009
Speaker 2: what I view, what I think about the differences, what's

670
00:37:49,050 --> 00:37:57,540
Speaker 2: the main difference, right? between biblical teaching, gospel-centered recovery, or secular,

671
00:37:58,530 --> 00:38:01,230
Speaker 2: worldly thinking, is kind of what I mentioned earlier, that

672
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:05,330
Speaker 2: we don't let our past define who we are today.

673
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:11,670
Speaker 2: Imagine if you were from a third world country, right?

674
00:38:12,010 --> 00:38:15,250
Speaker 2: And you're from a third world country, is poor, and

675
00:38:15,290 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 2: then you're adopted by some millionaire you're no longer a

676
00:38:20,219 --> 00:38:23,100
Speaker 2: poor child. You've been adopted in the same sense. I

677
00:38:23,140 --> 00:38:25,910
Speaker 2: love the words of second Corinthians five 17. And this

678
00:38:25,969 --> 00:38:28,910
Speaker 2: is kind of a hinge statement that we base our

679
00:38:29,110 --> 00:38:32,070
Speaker 2: recovery on. It says that if anyone is in Christ,

680
00:38:32,590 --> 00:38:36,390
Speaker 2: they are a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold,

681
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,460
Speaker 2: all things are new. And so we look at the

682
00:38:39,580 --> 00:38:42,620
Speaker 2: future with hope. We look at it with confidence, not

683
00:38:42,660 --> 00:38:47,090
Speaker 2: in ourselves, but in Christ. And we're able to, understand

684
00:38:47,130 --> 00:38:49,779
Speaker 2: that our identity is found in him and him alone,

685
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:53,540
Speaker 2: not in the things we've done. We've been forgiven and

686
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,219
Speaker 2: we've been set free. I love Jesus says, if the

687
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: son sets you free, you will be free indeed. And

688
00:38:59,020 --> 00:39:01,020
Speaker 2: John 10, he says, I have come that they may

689
00:39:01,060 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 2: have life and have it abundantly. And that abundant life

690
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,260
Speaker 2: he's referring to is not just eternal life. It encapsulates that. Yes.

691
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,529
Speaker 2: But he's talking about life today, life now. So variety is,

692
00:39:13,790 --> 00:39:16,959
Speaker 2: is awesome. And, Being sober and actually I would phrase,

693
00:39:17,340 --> 00:39:21,620
Speaker 2: you know, gospel centered. That's a great phrase because we've

694
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:24,529
Speaker 2: been given a lot of grace by God and in

695
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:26,710
Speaker 2: the same way of teaching. That's what we share.

696
00:39:29,070 --> 00:39:29,250
Speaker 1: Yeah.

697
00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:29,950
Speaker 2: And I think, you know.

698
00:39:30,530 --> 00:39:33,820
Speaker 1: It's like there there are a lot of there are

699
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,959
Speaker 1: a lot of people who um who want to push

700
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: back right and say like so you like you don't

701
00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: care about sobriety or you don't you know you talked

702
00:39:42,820 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: about the detox facility i'm like guys like all the

703
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,850
Speaker 1: time listen If Robert's not alive, he can't embrace the gospel, right?

704
00:39:51,050 --> 00:39:54,430
Speaker 1: So yes, I want Robert to go to a detox facility, right? Like,

705
00:39:54,450 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, withdrawals can and will kill you in a

706
00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: lot of instances, right? So no, I'm not against those.

707
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: And like you said, like, listen, I think especially where,

708
00:40:07,739 --> 00:40:10,860
Speaker 1: you know, one of my goals with my ministry is

709
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,270
Speaker 1: to make gospel-centered recovery available to more people, right? The

710
00:40:15,310 --> 00:40:19,310
Speaker 1: people in rural Wisconsin where I grew up, right? All

711
00:40:19,350 --> 00:40:22,210
Speaker 1: they have maybe is an AA meeting in the basement

712
00:40:22,290 --> 00:40:24,779
Speaker 1: of the Catholic church. And it's like, then go. Like,

713
00:40:24,860 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 1: I want you to go, right? I just don't want

714
00:40:27,860 --> 00:40:31,700
Speaker 1: you to stop there, right? I want you to keep going, right?

715
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,779
Speaker 1: So I think that's kind of an important distinction. You

716
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,100
Speaker 1: talked about A little bit about your family. I'm just curious,

717
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: what was it like for them to see the transformation

718
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: and what's that relationship like?

719
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 2: So you mean my family before coming here, right?

720
00:40:50,620 --> 00:40:51,219
Speaker 1: Yeah.

721
00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:54,700
Speaker 2: Because when I hear family now, I'm like a patriarch

722
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 2: of my family. I'm a father, I have a wife

723
00:40:56,820 --> 00:40:58,930
Speaker 2: and kids. So when I hear family, I'm thinking my

724
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,870
Speaker 2: family today. So my mother, she's still alive. My father's passed,

725
00:41:03,910 --> 00:41:06,230
Speaker 2: but he passed before I came here. And he would

726
00:41:06,270 --> 00:41:10,330
Speaker 2: always say, I think he would tell my sister, your

727
00:41:10,350 --> 00:41:12,070
Speaker 2: brother's going to get it. And the Lord's going to

728
00:41:12,130 --> 00:41:14,009
Speaker 2: save him and set him free from this. And so

729
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:16,910
Speaker 2: I can credit that to a lot of prayers from

730
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:22,460
Speaker 2: my family, but my mother, she's still alive and she's

731
00:41:22,500 --> 00:41:26,610
Speaker 2: not a Christian from what I can tell. And she,

732
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,860
Speaker 2: when I was coming here, she was grateful and her friend,

733
00:41:31,950 --> 00:41:34,430
Speaker 2: they were grateful that I was going to a place

734
00:41:34,770 --> 00:41:37,690
Speaker 2: and she, They read about America's Keswick. And one of

735
00:41:37,730 --> 00:41:40,530
Speaker 2: her friends said to me, hey, you know that place

736
00:41:40,590 --> 00:41:43,490
Speaker 2: is going to brainwash you. Because she wasn't a believer.

737
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:45,989
Speaker 2: She didn't like what she read about trusting Christ. And

738
00:41:46,469 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 2: I said, if you only knew how dirty my mind is,

739
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:53,620
Speaker 2: it needs a good washing.

740
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:54,660
Speaker 1: Wow.

741
00:41:55,340 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: That's my statement. And I'm sticking to it. So pretty

742
00:41:58,280 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: much the Lord brainwashed me.

743
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:01,100
Speaker 1: Wow.

744
00:42:01,140 --> 00:42:04,060
Speaker 2: That's what I needed, though. Yeah, that is a good point.

745
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: Right.

746
00:42:04,820 --> 00:42:07,950
Speaker 2: I got a great relationship with my mom. She doesn't

747
00:42:07,969 --> 00:42:10,250
Speaker 2: see everything the same way that I do, but she

748
00:42:10,330 --> 00:42:13,810
Speaker 2: also can't deny any of the beautiful fruit that the

749
00:42:13,870 --> 00:42:17,950
Speaker 2: Lord has grew through my life. And so, uh, just her,

750
00:42:17,989 --> 00:42:21,530
Speaker 2: her grandkids, like these kids love the Lord. They're filled

751
00:42:21,570 --> 00:42:25,629
Speaker 2: with joy. They're, they're, uh, such a blessing. And it's

752
00:42:25,670 --> 00:42:28,089
Speaker 2: so cool that I have the ability to present them

753
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,340
Speaker 2: to their grandmother and be like, this is what the

754
00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:35,739
Speaker 2: Lord's doing in my life. And so, um, Yeah, that's

755
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,900
Speaker 2: my life then. My life today is a lot different.

756
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: So for someone who's maybe listening to this, who has

757
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: a family member, maybe they themselves are like, you know what?

758
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: I kind of want to think about checking out America's Keswick. A,

759
00:42:47,739 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: is it something that requires you? You have to sign

760
00:42:52,140 --> 00:42:54,419
Speaker 1: a statement of faith before you go or you're like, hey, come.

761
00:42:55,310 --> 00:42:58,750
Speaker 1: And we'll teach you Jesus. And, you know, in the

762
00:42:58,790 --> 00:43:00,469
Speaker 1: course of that, we have a lot of faith that

763
00:43:00,510 --> 00:43:03,649
Speaker 1: you'll end up following him. Is that kind of the idea?

764
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:07,690
Speaker 2: Let me answer that. So we're not making people sign

765
00:43:07,770 --> 00:43:09,790
Speaker 2: any statement of faith to come here. We have people

766
00:43:09,810 --> 00:43:12,069
Speaker 2: that just come here because they need help. That's the goal.

767
00:43:12,110 --> 00:43:14,190
Speaker 2: We want people to come here. It's just like, I

768
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:16,390
Speaker 2: have a problem. I can't get help. And when I

769
00:43:16,430 --> 00:43:20,330
Speaker 2: say addiction, you know, we're just minimizing it right now forever.

770
00:43:21,070 --> 00:43:27,379
Speaker 2: but I'm going to just expand a little bit. So alcohol, right? Huge. 1897,

771
00:43:27,380 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 2: when this place started, that was probably the most prominent

772
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,399
Speaker 2: problem that people would have had. And over the course

773
00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 2: of time, since 128 years later, not only is it,

774
00:43:38,370 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 2: you know, heroin, as I mentioned through my story, crack, cocaine, gambling, pornography,

775
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,660
Speaker 2: like the list goes on. And social, I mean, social media, gaming,

776
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 2: all these things. So rather even than just saying addiction recovery,

777
00:43:53,460 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: one of the, a good statement would be a life

778
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,220
Speaker 2: dominating sin. If you're struggling with any life dominating sin,

779
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,300
Speaker 2: we've had people come here who couldn't stop lying. A

780
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 2: guy had came here because he couldn't stop lying. And

781
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,529
Speaker 2: so he understood that this dominated his life and he

782
00:44:09,570 --> 00:44:14,290
Speaker 2: needed help. And So we won't turn anybody away for

783
00:44:14,650 --> 00:44:18,470
Speaker 2: their faith. So we have an application process. If somebody

784
00:44:18,489 --> 00:44:23,540
Speaker 2: went on our website, americaskezik.org, and there's the addiction recovery tab,

785
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,780
Speaker 2: you would click it, it would explain the whole program.

786
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,670
Speaker 2: You can even apply right online. And as you apply online, uh,

787
00:44:30,830 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 2: our intake coordinator, David Harris, he would get the application

788
00:44:35,390 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: and he would, uh, contact you and say, uh, there's

789
00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:41,420
Speaker 2: like an interview process over the phone. And as he's

790
00:44:41,460 --> 00:44:44,300
Speaker 2: doing the interview process, the questions he would ask, like, Hey,

791
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:46,700
Speaker 2: are you willing to come here and do what we

792
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 2: asked you to do? And pretty much what we're asking

793
00:44:48,739 --> 00:44:50,940
Speaker 2: you to do is there's rules, you know, there's no,

794
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:56,250
Speaker 2: no drinking, no drugs, no fighting, no smoking, uh, And so,

795
00:44:57,170 --> 00:44:59,410
Speaker 2: which by the way, no smoking. When I came here,

796
00:44:59,450 --> 00:45:01,460
Speaker 2: that was my biggest problem. I was already, you know,

797
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:03,819
Speaker 2: four weeks clean off heroin, but I walked in the

798
00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:07,100
Speaker 2: door smoking a cigarette And here's the worst part of that.

799
00:45:07,420 --> 00:45:10,620
Speaker 2: You would think smoking was very difficult to quit. However,

800
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:12,660
Speaker 2: when I tried to quit in the world, it was

801
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,700
Speaker 2: much harder because people are smoking. When you're here, no

802
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: one else is smoking. So it's not as hard as

803
00:45:17,580 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: you think. And so set free from that as well.

804
00:45:20,940 --> 00:45:24,490
Speaker 2: So because of those rules there, someone over this application

805
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:28,190
Speaker 2: process and interview, if they're able to agree with those things,

806
00:45:29,350 --> 00:45:31,450
Speaker 2: those are just certain rules that we have. And then

807
00:45:31,489 --> 00:45:33,790
Speaker 2: they're able to come here. So David would work with

808
00:45:33,830 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 2: them and get them here. And so let me just

809
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:40,430
Speaker 2: add this. We are free program. We don't accept state

810
00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:45,230
Speaker 2: federal funding. We don't accept insurance. We don't need, there's,

811
00:45:45,370 --> 00:45:47,150
Speaker 2: you don't have to pay to come here. There's a

812
00:45:47,350 --> 00:45:51,620
Speaker 2: one-time application fee. One time we asked the resident to

813
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: have $ 500 at the beginning. And the beautiful thing with

814
00:45:55,620 --> 00:45:59,500
Speaker 2: that is does that $ 500 over a four month period,

815
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:01,939
Speaker 2: that doesn't cover much. It's cents.

816
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

817
00:46:02,060 --> 00:46:04,850
Speaker 2: So, I can tell you how much it costs us.

818
00:46:04,910 --> 00:46:07,969
Speaker 2: It costs us about $ 11, 000 for one person to go

819
00:46:07,989 --> 00:46:11,030
Speaker 2: through our four month program. We pay that though. We

820
00:46:11,050 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 2: pay that through people who know that God is working

821
00:46:14,020 --> 00:46:19,020
Speaker 2: here and they support us financially through fundraisers, monthly support,

822
00:46:19,380 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: churches support us as missions. So there's ways in which

823
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,460
Speaker 2: God provides financially. We don't want the residents to have

824
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: to pay for this. We're trusting God. It has been

825
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,430
Speaker 2: that way since 1897 and it will stay that way.

826
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:34,460
Speaker 2: So we don't have insurance and you don't have to

827
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:37,580
Speaker 2: pay for it. The $ 500 though, what I like to

828
00:46:37,620 --> 00:46:39,819
Speaker 2: call that is like a heart revealer. It's a little

829
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 2: skin in the game. It's a little bit of commitment.

830
00:46:42,580 --> 00:46:45,379
Speaker 2: Because if we didn't charge absolutely anything, somebody could come

831
00:46:45,420 --> 00:46:48,380
Speaker 2: today and then leave tomorrow and not have anything lost.

832
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,180
Speaker 2: But when somebody invests $ 500 to come here, if they

833
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 2: leave tomorrow, it's just an expensive bed and breakfast. Yeah.

834
00:46:55,530 --> 00:46:59,230
Speaker 2: But the hopes is that's the best $ 500 you've ever spent.

835
00:46:59,650 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: And here's something also with that. Most people in active

836
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:07,580
Speaker 2: addiction don't have $ 500. Let's be honest. And so it

837
00:47:07,620 --> 00:47:11,620
Speaker 2: makes them search outside of themselves for that initially getting

838
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:13,820
Speaker 2: in here, which there's a gospel that'll preach by itself.

839
00:47:14,380 --> 00:47:17,020
Speaker 2: So they have to ask a family member, hey, will

840
00:47:17,060 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 2: you pay for me to get in here? And if

841
00:47:19,380 --> 00:47:22,630
Speaker 2: you have loved ones, they should, if they're able to

842
00:47:22,710 --> 00:47:24,350
Speaker 2: pay for you to come here, $ 500, right? It's not much.

843
00:47:24,370 --> 00:47:29,030
Speaker 2: Or If you don't have any relatives or family or friends,

844
00:47:29,070 --> 00:47:30,690
Speaker 2: go to a local church and tell them you want

845
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:33,710
Speaker 2: to come to America's Keswick. Any church would pay to

846
00:47:33,770 --> 00:47:37,029
Speaker 2: send their application fee. And the beautiful thing with that,

847
00:47:37,410 --> 00:47:40,950
Speaker 2: it essentially ties that person to that church. All of

848
00:47:41,010 --> 00:47:44,910
Speaker 2: a sudden, they'll be praying for you. They will be

849
00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:47,110
Speaker 2: sending letters to you. Hey, I can't wait till you

850
00:47:47,150 --> 00:47:48,450
Speaker 2: get out and you can come and be part of

851
00:47:48,469 --> 00:47:51,850
Speaker 2: the church. And it's just amazing to see how God's

852
00:47:51,989 --> 00:47:56,009
Speaker 2: church partners with the people as they want to come

853
00:47:56,070 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 2: in here. And so the free program, I just wanted

854
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: to add that the application would just start online. You

855
00:48:01,580 --> 00:48:04,330
Speaker 2: can talk to David Harris and he will work his

856
00:48:04,370 --> 00:48:06,670
Speaker 2: best to get you in as quick as possible. But

857
00:48:06,690 --> 00:48:08,629
Speaker 2: just add to what you said a few minutes ago

858
00:48:08,670 --> 00:48:12,250
Speaker 2: about being detox centers. Praise God that he has given

859
00:48:12,330 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 2: us the medical advancements so that we don't have to

860
00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:19,730
Speaker 2: suffer through this. You know, as you mentioned, like alcohol withdrawal,

861
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: you can die from. So go to these detoxes. We're

862
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,299
Speaker 2: not a medical facility. So we don't detox. They would

863
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 2: have to be detoxed before they get here.

864
00:48:28,140 --> 00:48:32,060
Speaker 1: Yeah. I love what you said earlier about any life

865
00:48:32,140 --> 00:48:32,959
Speaker 1: dominating sin.

866
00:48:33,260 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: Right.

867
00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: You know, in my book, I talk about and I

868
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 1: say and I have a video series coming out that

869
00:48:37,500 --> 00:48:40,859
Speaker 1: says the title is We're All Addicted to Something. And

870
00:48:40,980 --> 00:48:43,299
Speaker 1: I can say that because we all have sin in

871
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,340
Speaker 1: our lives. Right. We all have something that we place

872
00:48:47,580 --> 00:48:51,220
Speaker 1: on the mantle of our hearts that is above Jesus,

873
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,580
Speaker 1: even as Christians, right? And I'm constantly trying to tear

874
00:48:54,620 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: down those idols. And as soon as I tear one down,

875
00:48:56,540 --> 00:48:58,860
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, where did that other one, where did

876
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: that other one like creep up and crawl on? You

877
00:49:01,340 --> 00:49:03,930
Speaker 1: know what I mean? And so I love that life

878
00:49:03,969 --> 00:49:07,190
Speaker 1: dominating sin, right? That especially in this day and age,

879
00:49:07,210 --> 00:49:10,629
Speaker 1: like you said, yeah, 1897, alcohol, right? That's the thing, right?

880
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:14,940
Speaker 1: But what are you struggling with? Um, practical question. You know,

881
00:49:14,980 --> 00:49:17,590
Speaker 1: you talked about no smoking, a really popular now is

882
00:49:17,620 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: a nicotine like pouches. Can people do those? No.

883
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:21,660
Speaker 2: OK. No nicotine.

884
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,130
Speaker 1: So then the other thing would be OK. Someone's listening

885
00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:29,890
Speaker 1: to this. They're like, hey, I'm a 55-year-old man. I've

886
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: got a business. Is this just– what's the makeup of

887
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:39,100
Speaker 1: the residence? Is it, hey, some people come from suburbia.

888
00:49:39,140 --> 00:49:41,210
Speaker 1: Some people come from the streets. They're like, I can't

889
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:45,250
Speaker 1: imagine myself at a place like that. And I'm just curious.

890
00:49:46,210 --> 00:49:48,569
Speaker 2: We get people from all over, all different age groups.

891
00:49:48,930 --> 00:49:51,410
Speaker 2: We have been recently getting a lot of young people.

892
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 2: I would think the average would be 40 plus age group,

893
00:49:57,140 --> 00:50:00,140
Speaker 2: but we have got a lot of young people and

894
00:50:00,180 --> 00:50:02,819
Speaker 2: it's just evidence that the enemy is at work, right?

895
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,400
Speaker 2: But we have people as you have to be an adult.

896
00:50:06,420 --> 00:50:09,390
Speaker 2: So you have to be 18. If we don't accept

897
00:50:09,550 --> 00:50:12,390
Speaker 2: anybody that's a minor because then the state would have

898
00:50:12,489 --> 00:50:14,750
Speaker 2: some oversight. We don't want that. So you have to

899
00:50:14,770 --> 00:50:17,549
Speaker 2: be an adult. And we've had people as, you know,

900
00:50:17,610 --> 00:50:21,250
Speaker 2: as old as, yeah, very old. As long as you're

901
00:50:21,330 --> 00:50:24,430
Speaker 2: able to be here. I mean, and don't think that

902
00:50:25,010 --> 00:50:29,049
Speaker 2: physical limitations would not allow you to come here. I've

903
00:50:29,090 --> 00:50:33,129
Speaker 2: had people come here with no legs. Like my buddy

904
00:50:33,150 --> 00:50:35,110
Speaker 2: was in a motorcycle accident. He had no legs. He

905
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:40,020
Speaker 2: came here and there's rooms we'll make work. And so

906
00:50:40,060 --> 00:50:43,420
Speaker 2: like even the work therapy, those jobs, you can sit

907
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,310
Speaker 2: in one spot and fold towels like, It's menial work there.

908
00:50:47,370 --> 00:50:52,090
Speaker 2: Don't think of any physical disability you have as a limitation. No,

909
00:50:52,489 --> 00:50:54,739
Speaker 2: we want to get to the heart. We want to

910
00:50:54,820 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: share that Jesus Christ is the lasting answer to not

911
00:50:58,820 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 2: any only addiction, but any life dominating sin.

912
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,219
Speaker 1: So you said, and that brings me back to this.

913
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:06,910
Speaker 1: You know, I think there are some people that they

914
00:51:06,930 --> 00:51:10,049
Speaker 1: hear when, when you say, when I say like, so

915
00:51:10,090 --> 00:51:11,750
Speaker 1: it's not just a, you think right. When I talk

916
00:51:11,790 --> 00:51:14,980
Speaker 1: about sin being at the root of, And that we

917
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: need to, you know, root that out. There are some

918
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:19,860
Speaker 1: people whose skin just starts to crawl. And they're like,

919
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: what are you talking about? You know, like, this is not,

920
00:51:21,980 --> 00:51:24,550
Speaker 1: this is not a moral issue. You know, addiction is

921
00:51:24,590 --> 00:51:27,450
Speaker 1: not a moral failure. And, you know, I have a

922
00:51:27,450 --> 00:51:31,770
Speaker 1: whole thing on that. But, you know, what, how do

923
00:51:31,870 --> 00:51:35,730
Speaker 1: you respond to people who bristle at the idea, who

924
00:51:35,770 --> 00:51:39,350
Speaker 1: maybe they embrace kind of that addiction as disease model, right?

925
00:51:39,410 --> 00:51:41,569
Speaker 1: It's like cancer. It's like, you know, you can't, you

926
00:51:41,610 --> 00:51:46,950
Speaker 1: can't help it. And How do you respond to that idea?

927
00:51:50,140 --> 00:51:53,300
Speaker 2: So you said two different things. The people that struggle

928
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 2: with thinking of it as sin or thinking that it

929
00:51:56,900 --> 00:51:58,540
Speaker 2: is a disease. Both.

930
00:51:58,580 --> 00:52:00,100
Speaker 1: I guess both, right?

931
00:52:00,460 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 2: I believe what the Bible says that we are born

932
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: into sin. We all have sin. You are not a

933
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,720
Speaker 2: sinner because you have sinned. You are a sinner. Therefore,

934
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,210
Speaker 2: you sin. And so it's a different mindset. And Christ

935
00:52:12,250 --> 00:52:15,060
Speaker 2: came to set people free from sin. Addiction is sin.

936
00:52:15,260 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 2: Let's just be honest. You wanting to fulfill your own

937
00:52:19,820 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: desires and passions and lust, you were created for greater things.

938
00:52:24,340 --> 00:52:27,489
Speaker 2: Your whole purpose in life is to bring glory and

939
00:52:27,510 --> 00:52:30,650
Speaker 2: honor to Jesus Christ. And that may sound foreign to

940
00:52:30,690 --> 00:52:33,250
Speaker 2: people's ears right now, but that is the absolute truth.

941
00:52:33,570 --> 00:52:36,850
Speaker 2: That is why you were created. You were not created

942
00:52:37,150 --> 00:52:40,050
Speaker 2: to consume and enjoy this life. That's what the world

943
00:52:40,090 --> 00:52:43,140
Speaker 2: will tell you. You were created to reflect the image

944
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: of your creator and to, uh, Just enjoy him forever.

945
00:52:47,980 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 2: And so that's why we were created. And if you

946
00:52:50,580 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: come to grips with that, we can move on to

947
00:52:52,940 --> 00:52:54,819
Speaker 2: the next reason. The next thing would say, well, what's

948
00:52:54,900 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 2: wrong with me? What's wrong with the world? And how

949
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 2: can it get fixed? Well, what's wrong with us as people?

950
00:53:00,100 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? What's wrong with me? We are sinners.

951
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,939
Speaker 2: We need something outside of ourselves to set us free

952
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,069
Speaker 2: from that sin. And Jesus Christ is that answer. What's

953
00:53:10,110 --> 00:53:11,950
Speaker 2: wrong with the world? Well, the world will tell you,

954
00:53:12,290 --> 00:53:14,770
Speaker 2: you know, your whole purpose in life is to consume

955
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:20,050
Speaker 2: and enjoy The problem with that is, as Rockefeller would say,

956
00:53:21,010 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 2: he was asked, how much money is enough? And his

957
00:53:23,940 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: answer was just a little bit more. The flesh is

958
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 2: never satisfied. We want more and more. There is no

959
00:53:30,860 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: satisfaction for our flesh outside. And C.S. Lewis said it

960
00:53:34,700 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: like this. We all have a cross-shaped hole in our hearts.

961
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:43,140
Speaker 2: And it's only with God that that satisfaction would be met.

962
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:47,899
Speaker 2: And so here's the great thing. To somebody listening, this

963
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 2: may be shocking. The world does not revolve around you.

964
00:53:51,410 --> 00:53:53,969
Speaker 2: You were not created for this world. And here's to

965
00:53:54,010 --> 00:53:56,390
Speaker 2: prove that point. One day you're going to die and

966
00:53:56,430 --> 00:53:59,450
Speaker 2: this world will keep on going. And to add insult

967
00:53:59,469 --> 00:54:02,470
Speaker 2: to injury, somebody's going to get all your stuff. Okay?

968
00:54:02,910 --> 00:54:04,330
Speaker 2: You are not the end all. And here's the thing.

969
00:54:04,830 --> 00:54:08,649
Speaker 2: God is the eternal creator who loved you so much

970
00:54:08,690 --> 00:54:11,660
Speaker 2: that even while you were in your sins, dead in

971
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,500
Speaker 2: your sins, he sent Christ to die on a cross

972
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,739
Speaker 2: to take our sin that we have sinned against him

973
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,299
Speaker 2: on himself. And after having died, rose again on the

974
00:54:22,340 --> 00:54:25,029
Speaker 2: third day, having accomplished what he was sent forth to

975
00:54:25,070 --> 00:54:29,149
Speaker 2: do to save sinners. And so the hope is, That

976
00:54:29,210 --> 00:54:32,570
Speaker 2: we don't turn to drugs. We don't turn to alcohol

977
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:37,900
Speaker 2: to either numb a problem or to satisfy a desire. Instead,

978
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 2: we look to Christ. He's the one who can satisfy

979
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 2: us eternally. He's the one who we find our most

980
00:54:45,620 --> 00:54:51,100
Speaker 2: joy in. And so when someone hears the phrase like

981
00:54:51,140 --> 00:54:54,410
Speaker 2: you are a sinner. The truth is that we all

982
00:54:54,450 --> 00:54:57,010
Speaker 2: have sinned against God, every single one of us. You've

983
00:54:57,070 --> 00:55:03,450
Speaker 2: either lied, you've stolen, and we've used God's name in vain.

984
00:55:03,530 --> 00:55:07,370
Speaker 2: We break all of his laws. Are we condemned because

985
00:55:07,390 --> 00:55:10,089
Speaker 2: of those things? Well, if it was a court of law, absolutely.

986
00:55:10,130 --> 00:55:14,339
Speaker 2: We'd be judged according to that law. But the worst

987
00:55:14,380 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 2: part of that is if we were judged according to

988
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: God's perfect standard, the Ten Commandments, every single one of

989
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,589
Speaker 2: us would go to hell. But God loves us so

990
00:55:22,650 --> 00:55:25,830
Speaker 2: much that he sent his son to take upon himself

991
00:55:26,310 --> 00:55:28,570
Speaker 2: what we deserve. And so if you think about a

992
00:55:29,170 --> 00:55:32,930
Speaker 2: legal standing, we are justified when Jesus took our place.

993
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 2: And now we are given his, it's called imputation. We

994
00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:42,020
Speaker 2: are given his righteousness so that we can be seated

995
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 2: in Christ, in God. And I'm getting too deep into

996
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,820
Speaker 2: theology right now. But the fact of the matter is,

997
00:55:47,870 --> 00:55:51,310
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ is the lasting answer to any addiction. Every

998
00:55:51,330 --> 00:55:53,590
Speaker 2: single one of us have sinned against a holy God,

999
00:55:53,969 --> 00:55:56,049
Speaker 2: but God loved you so much that he sent his son.

1000
00:55:56,450 --> 00:55:58,380
Speaker 2: For God so loved the world that he gave his

1001
00:55:58,489 --> 00:56:00,899
Speaker 2: one and only son, that whoever believes in him shall

1002
00:56:00,940 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: not perish, but have eternal life. And not only mean

1003
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:06,839
Speaker 2: just eternal life, but I mean life now. You place

1004
00:56:06,860 --> 00:56:10,540
Speaker 2: your trust in Jesus Christ. Don't trust in him just intellectually.

1005
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: Place your life in his hands. It's already in his hands.

1006
00:56:14,060 --> 00:56:16,500
Speaker 2: You just need to come to understand that and live

1007
00:56:16,940 --> 00:56:19,350
Speaker 2: in in an understanding way about that.

1008
00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:24,330
Speaker 1: Final question. First of all, great. Like, I love that

1009
00:56:24,350 --> 00:56:27,110
Speaker 1: you just preached the gospel and gave a gospel presentation. Yes,

1010
00:56:27,390 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 1: let's do it. The second thing would be, okay, whether

1011
00:56:32,340 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 1: it's Keswick, whether it's any gospel-centered program, right? What is

1012
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: your advice to people who, you know, not everyone will

1013
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:44,040
Speaker 1: maybe stay for the extra three or four month discipleship.

1014
00:56:44,420 --> 00:56:47,850
Speaker 1: They'll go back to their environment. Right. And so, you know,

1015
00:56:47,930 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: and I know that like and I don't say this flippantly,

1016
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 1: but many times it's, quote unquote, easier to be sober,

1017
00:56:56,219 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: to be whatever in treatment. My sister, you know, cocaine.

1018
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,980
Speaker 1: And it was like, man, I love I loved going

1019
00:57:03,020 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 1: to visit my sister at treatment or in prison. Why?

1020
00:57:06,460 --> 00:57:09,790
Speaker 1: Because like she was the person that I like, you know,

1021
00:57:09,930 --> 00:57:12,069
Speaker 1: could talk with. Right. Like I could you know, she

1022
00:57:12,110 --> 00:57:14,390
Speaker 1: was she was she wasn't strung out. It was great

1023
00:57:14,570 --> 00:57:17,570
Speaker 1: in a sense. What is your advice to people who

1024
00:57:17,870 --> 00:57:20,150
Speaker 1: either go through a Keswick, who go through a program,

1025
00:57:20,170 --> 00:57:24,630
Speaker 1: who go through a gospel-centered recovery? And then they go

1026
00:57:24,870 --> 00:57:29,340
Speaker 1: back to that environment, right? They see the people, the smells,

1027
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:35,490
Speaker 1: the sounds, the whatever. What is your advice to them

1028
00:57:35,780 --> 00:57:38,390
Speaker 1: in order to keep on the straight and narrow? We'll

1029
00:57:38,410 --> 00:57:39,230
Speaker 1: be right back after this.

1030
00:57:42,570 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 2: And speaking of secular rehabs, they've got a lot of

1031
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 2: things right. And one of the things they got right

1032
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: are people placing things. Avoid those things. Like, it just

1033
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,940
Speaker 2: makes sense. Don't go down that street if that's where

1034
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 2: you used to get drugs. Don't go into that store

1035
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: if that's where you used to buy alcohol. You know,

1036
00:57:57,500 --> 00:57:59,780
Speaker 2: stay away from that person. You know what I mean? So, like,

1037
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 2: those are just common sense. They teach that, and I

1038
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:03,310
Speaker 2: agree with those things.

1039
00:58:03,330 --> 00:58:03,490
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1040
00:58:05,130 --> 00:58:08,950
Speaker 2: When someone leaves here or a secular program, I mean,

1041
00:58:09,370 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 2: a Christ gospel-centered recovery, my biggest encouragement would be, one,

1042
00:58:14,100 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 2: get plugged in to a fellowship of people that have

1043
00:58:18,340 --> 00:58:20,900
Speaker 2: the same mind that you have. So if you're at

1044
00:58:20,940 --> 00:58:23,410
Speaker 2: a church, get plugged in. I mean, and here's the thing.

1045
00:58:23,870 --> 00:58:27,430
Speaker 2: When you're in a rehab, a Christian program, There is

1046
00:58:27,470 --> 00:58:31,110
Speaker 2: this kind of forced fellowship on you. And it's easy

1047
00:58:31,130 --> 00:58:33,530
Speaker 2: to be sober, as you said. It's easy to be

1048
00:58:33,550 --> 00:58:38,220
Speaker 2: a hallelujah, amen. And so when you leave, you're going

1049
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 2: to have to go intentionally out of your comfort zone

1050
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:46,740
Speaker 2: sometimes and put yourself out there to make new friends.

1051
00:58:47,390 --> 00:58:49,330
Speaker 2: And it may be hard, but I would start a church,

1052
00:58:49,790 --> 00:58:53,910
Speaker 2: find a good gospel centered church that teaches the Bible

1053
00:58:53,990 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 2: through and go there and put yourself out there and

1054
00:58:57,820 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: connect with the pastor and just be humble. Hey, I

1055
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 2: had these things in my life. I'm here. I want

1056
00:59:03,020 --> 00:59:05,930
Speaker 2: to seek the Lord. What should I do? And that pastor,

1057
00:59:06,110 --> 00:59:08,780
Speaker 2: if he's a god-fearing pastor will say hey let me

1058
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 2: introduce you to this person or hey you know get

1059
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: you plugged into the church and my suggestion would also

1060
00:59:14,180 --> 00:59:16,740
Speaker 2: be read your bible every day be a person of

1061
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:20,340
Speaker 2: prayer uh involved in the fellowship like i mentioned and

1062
00:59:20,380 --> 00:59:23,970
Speaker 2: then start to serve in the church Whatever that looks like. Hey,

1063
00:59:24,030 --> 00:59:25,890
Speaker 2: I want to be a greeter. Hey, can I clean

1064
00:59:25,930 --> 00:59:27,470
Speaker 2: the bathrooms at the end of the services?

1065
00:59:27,770 --> 00:59:28,250
Speaker 1: Whatever.

1066
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:32,170
Speaker 2: Get involved. When you start to serve people, there's another

1067
00:59:32,230 --> 00:59:36,930
Speaker 2: level of Christ that just we experience. Jesus himself did

1068
00:59:36,970 --> 00:59:39,700
Speaker 2: not come to be served, but to serve. And so

1069
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 2: we see that as a great example for us. And

1070
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:46,860
Speaker 2: it's hard to be selfish when we're selfless. It's hard

1071
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,430
Speaker 2: to think. about ourselves when we're thinking about other people.

1072
00:59:49,450 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: And so those are my encouragements. Read your Bibles, pray, fellowship,

1073
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:53,580
Speaker 2: and serve.

1074
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,070
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think, you know, again,

1075
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: You know, one of what is one of the principles

1076
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:01,690
Speaker 1: of AA is to serve. And that's not like, by

1077
01:00:01,730 --> 01:00:06,110
Speaker 1: the way, the gospel and Christianity didn't borrow that from AA. Right.

1078
01:00:06,490 --> 01:00:09,890
Speaker 1: Like that's a principle that has been around for thousands

1079
01:00:09,950 --> 01:00:13,820
Speaker 1: of years. Right. That that it's a truth that they've

1080
01:00:13,860 --> 01:00:15,980
Speaker 1: latched on to you, which is a good truth. Right.

1081
01:00:16,460 --> 01:00:19,540
Speaker 1: That that when we serve, we emulate Christ. And as

1082
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,500
Speaker 1: we emulate Christ, you struggle. You know, I talk about

1083
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: this in my first book, you know, as someone who's

1084
01:00:24,390 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: been diagnosed with clinical anxiety and OCD. That when I

1085
01:00:27,860 --> 01:00:29,740
Speaker 1: get in a thought rumination, when I feel like I'm

1086
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:32,940
Speaker 1: getting stuck, when I'm in a depression, I have to

1087
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 1: consciously make the decision, okay, I need to go out

1088
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: and serve. Because when I get outside of myself, there's

1089
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:45,750
Speaker 1: something spiritual that happens. And to your point, don't think

1090
01:00:46,170 --> 01:00:49,750
Speaker 1: that whatever program you use, especially if it's gospel-centered and whatnot,

1091
01:00:50,170 --> 01:00:51,930
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden you're going to stop and

1092
01:00:51,950 --> 01:00:56,090
Speaker 1: then everything's going to be easy. You know, like I say,

1093
01:00:56,130 --> 01:00:59,400
Speaker 1: like my life, my life now, Robert, is better. It's

1094
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 1: not easier. You took away my coping mechanism. Right. Like

1095
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:06,910
Speaker 1: it's it'd be easier to just not think about my struggles.

1096
01:01:06,990 --> 01:01:10,950
Speaker 1: It'd be easier to just, you know, escape. That's easy. Right.

1097
01:01:11,450 --> 01:01:14,130
Speaker 1: This is better, but it's harder. Right. And so and

1098
01:01:14,170 --> 01:01:17,870
Speaker 1: so that will require you as a person to to

1099
01:01:18,350 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: to take steps. Right. Like to to make decisions, to

1100
01:01:21,700 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: get off your butt. Right. To not wait for things

1101
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: to come to you. Right. Like you said, go find

1102
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,620
Speaker 1: a community, go find a church. Um, get in the word.

1103
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: So I love that. Robert, thank you so much for

1104
01:01:34,420 --> 01:01:38,260
Speaker 1: sharing your story, um, about, um, you know, your own struggles.

1105
01:01:38,300 --> 01:01:41,430
Speaker 1: Thank you for talking about America's Keswick. Um, tell, tell

1106
01:01:41,470 --> 01:01:43,150
Speaker 1: everyone again where they can go and spell it out.

1107
01:01:44,330 --> 01:01:50,050
Speaker 2: America's Keswick.org. Uh, Keswick is spelled K E S W

1108
01:01:50,290 --> 01:01:52,410
Speaker 2: I C K. You can even call 1-800-453-7942. Awesome.

1109
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:00,820
Speaker 1: Robert, appreciate you, brother, and look forward to– I'm hoping

1110
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,410
Speaker 1: someday to come out there. Another one of our guests,

1111
01:02:03,510 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: Arman Kaimakshin, who is an alum of Keswick. Arman, babe.

1112
01:02:10,260 --> 01:02:13,560
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to someday coming out and seeing America's

1113
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:14,480
Speaker 1: Keswick for myself.

1114
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:16,500
Speaker 2: Well, let me know when you do. I'd love to

1115
01:02:16,580 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 2: give you a tour and show you all around and

1116
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 2: come out to one of our events. We have tons.

1117
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,540
Speaker 2: I told you about the five conference weeks. We've got

1118
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,580
Speaker 2: some great speakers lined up. And even after summer, like

1119
01:02:25,700 --> 01:02:28,220
Speaker 2: every month, we have a big men's fellowship night. So

1120
01:02:28,340 --> 01:02:29,780
Speaker 2: come out and join us, John. And thank you for

1121
01:02:29,820 --> 01:02:31,990
Speaker 2: having me. I love to tell the story and it's

1122
01:02:32,050 --> 01:02:35,770
Speaker 2: great to be able to share with you, John. Thank you. Awesome.

1123
01:02:35,790 --> 01:02:41,170
Speaker 1: Thanks, man. you know, I really do like that term,

1124
01:02:41,350 --> 01:02:44,780
Speaker 1: life dominating sins, right? And, you know, I don't know,

1125
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: we talked there at the end of, I think, you know,

1126
01:02:47,980 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: there are some people in the secular recovery world, even

1127
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: some people that I would consider in the Christian recovery world,

1128
01:02:52,340 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: but maybe ascribe to that more addiction as disease model

1129
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:57,450
Speaker 1: who don't like that term. But in the end, listen,

1130
01:02:57,990 --> 01:03:01,390
Speaker 1: all of our addictions are the result of sin and

1131
01:03:01,430 --> 01:03:04,150
Speaker 1: brokenness in the world. And us, I just love how

1132
01:03:04,210 --> 01:03:07,950
Speaker 1: Robert put it, right? And so, you know, I did

1133
01:03:08,010 --> 01:03:12,310
Speaker 1: allude to That idea of addiction as a moral failure

1134
01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:13,810
Speaker 1: and my thoughts on that. And you can go back

1135
01:03:13,870 --> 01:03:19,610
Speaker 1: to my interview. I think it's episode 57 with Christina Dent,

1136
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 1: where I think she gives a she says something that

1137
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: really triggers in a good way a distinction for me. And,

1138
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,580
Speaker 1: you know, it's popular to say, well, addiction isn't a moral,

1139
01:03:30,780 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 1: moral failure. I do think addiction is a moral failure

1140
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:36,770
Speaker 1: in this way. It involves choice. And so if addiction

1141
01:03:36,810 --> 01:03:40,110
Speaker 1: involves choice, then there are right and wrong choices and

1142
01:03:40,190 --> 01:03:43,310
Speaker 1: we will make wrong choices. I started to make really

1143
01:03:43,410 --> 01:03:47,630
Speaker 1: wrong choices about how to escape, about how to medicate,

1144
01:03:48,010 --> 01:03:51,950
Speaker 1: about where to go when I was feeling crappy. And

1145
01:03:52,050 --> 01:03:54,950
Speaker 1: so I made morally wrong choices. Now, what it was

1146
01:03:55,030 --> 01:03:59,740
Speaker 1: not was it was not a moral compass failure. What

1147
01:03:59,780 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: I mean by that is I was not devoid of

1148
01:04:02,180 --> 01:04:05,340
Speaker 1: knowing and understanding right or wrong. Now, I think sometimes

1149
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: when people say addiction is not a moral failure, what

1150
01:04:07,820 --> 01:04:10,290
Speaker 1: they're really trying to say maybe is addiction is not

1151
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:14,450
Speaker 1: a moral compass failure. But by not being more specific,

1152
01:04:15,090 --> 01:04:19,610
Speaker 1: we can absolve ourselves of any responsibility and say, well,

1153
01:04:19,650 --> 01:04:24,820
Speaker 1: it's not– I wasn't really in control, if you will.

1154
01:04:24,860 --> 01:04:26,860
Speaker 1: And there are aspects and there are times, right, that

1155
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: when you– the addiction and the physical aspects take over,

1156
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:34,540
Speaker 1: it rewires your brain. And your logic center is completely off.

1157
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:37,970
Speaker 1: I get that. I'm not denying that. But even as

1158
01:04:38,010 --> 01:04:40,970
Speaker 1: we look back to the beginning and the start of

1159
01:04:41,330 --> 01:04:44,750
Speaker 1: our addictions, there were choice. And in that episode with Christina,

1160
01:04:46,470 --> 01:04:49,570
Speaker 1: she talks about how if addiction isn't a choice, then

1161
01:04:49,610 --> 01:04:55,700
Speaker 1: we really don't have hope for recovery. We can't make

1162
01:04:55,860 --> 01:04:58,820
Speaker 1: a different decision. We can't follow a different path. We

1163
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:02,500
Speaker 1: can't take a different route. And so that's what I

1164
01:05:02,540 --> 01:05:06,350
Speaker 1: like to talk about when that idea of addiction is

1165
01:05:06,370 --> 01:05:09,270
Speaker 1: not a moral failure comes up is I really think

1166
01:05:09,310 --> 01:05:13,130
Speaker 1: the better way is addiction is not a moral compass failure.

1167
01:05:13,370 --> 01:05:16,709
Speaker 1: I know I knew what was right and what was wrong,

1168
01:05:16,730 --> 01:05:19,970
Speaker 1: and I chose the other way. So that's just my

1169
01:05:19,990 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 1: little spiel there. Appreciate, Robert. You can check out America's Keswick.

1170
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: If you like any part of this podcast, I would

1171
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,430
Speaker 1: just be honored if you would share it. even if

1172
01:05:31,470 --> 01:05:34,270
Speaker 1: it's just 20 seconds. That helps grow the audience, and

1173
01:05:34,310 --> 01:05:36,370
Speaker 1: the point is not a bigger audience. The point is

1174
01:05:36,410 --> 01:05:38,700
Speaker 1: that more people would hear the truth that you are hearing.

1175
01:05:39,180 --> 01:05:41,510
Speaker 1: The point is that more people would connect with what

1176
01:05:41,590 --> 01:05:45,060
Speaker 1: you've connected with in this episode, even if it is, again,

1177
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:49,940
Speaker 1: just 20 seconds. I would be honored if you would

1178
01:05:49,980 --> 01:05:53,900
Speaker 1: share it. Thank you, as always, to our partner, Life Audio, lifeaudio.com,

1179
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: to listen to some other great podcasts. They make this

1180
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: show possible, and so we are so grateful to them.

1181
01:05:59,820 --> 01:06:02,900
Speaker 1: We will see you back here again next week.