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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: I went from being like AA's biggest fan, all in

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Speaker 2: on AA, like poster boy love AA can't get enough

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Speaker 2: of AA. I went from that place to the more

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Speaker 2: and more I read the Bible, the more and more

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Speaker 2: I sat under faithful preaching. I'm starting to have the

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Speaker 2: Word of God coming alive to me, and it's so

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Speaker 2: clearly saying things that are in total conflict with what

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Speaker 2: I am believing and teaching other people in AA.

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Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of a Christian

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Speaker 1: Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seitel. This is

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Speaker 1: your home for real story, radical vulnerability, and remarkable comebacks.

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Speaker 1: In the end, this podcast is a place for the desperate,

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Speaker 1: the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk. But it's

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Speaker 1: also a place of hope and healing. I know that

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Speaker 1: firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic, not

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Speaker 1: the other way around. Today, I've found sobriety after decades

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Speaker 1: of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I've found Jesus.

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Speaker 1: My prayer is that as I interview people just like

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Speaker 1: you and just like me, along with professionals in the

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Speaker 1: fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery.

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Speaker 3: You will find.

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Speaker 1: The peace that is available to you through Christ on

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Speaker 1: the other side of whatever you're going through and whatever

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Speaker 1: addiction that might be, because let's face it, we're all addicted

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Speaker 1: to something so welcome. Let's get radically vulnerable as we

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Speaker 1: explore what it looks like to be on this journey

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Speaker 1: of MESSI sanctification. We'll be right back after this. What

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Speaker 1: does it profit a man to gain the whole world

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Speaker 1: but lose his soul? It's a very famous scripture in

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Speaker 1: the Bible, and today's guest that scripture plays prominently in

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Speaker 1: his life, and you could almost alter it a little bit,

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Speaker 1: not to be heretical, but applying it to addiction and

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Speaker 1: his story, it sounded like this, what does it profit

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Speaker 1: me to gain sobriety but lose my soul? Today's guest

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Speaker 1: is Brett Smith. Brett is a good friend. I've known

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Speaker 1: him for years, and he has a story of addiction

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Speaker 1: that like, in one instance, it's like, it's in a

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Speaker 1: sense of your classic story, right, it's I dove headlong

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Speaker 1: into drinking in college, was the party guy like alcohol,

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Speaker 1: tried to quit, did quit for a little bit, went

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Speaker 1: right back to it. But then Brett's story is that

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Speaker 1: he really dove headlong into Alcoholics Anonymous and became like

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Speaker 1: the poster boy, the poster child if you will, for AA.

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Speaker 1: Those are his words. And as he was doing that,

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Speaker 1: as he was like you know, sponsoring and setting up

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Speaker 1: and taking the message and doing all the things, he

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Speaker 1: started to realize, after sitting under what he calls faithful

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Speaker 1: preaching and searching the scriptures, that something was off, something

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Speaker 1: was missing. And as he did all that, he realized,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like I have made an idol out

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Speaker 1: of sobriety, Like I am worshiping sobriety. It's become this

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Speaker 1: like works based religious system for me that if I

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Speaker 1: just show up to an meetings, if I just do this,

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Speaker 1: if I just do that, then I'm good. And he

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Speaker 1: realized he was missing the true gospel. And so he's

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Speaker 1: going to talk about that today. He's also going to

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Speaker 1: talk about AA. He's going to talk about Alcoholics Anonymous

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Speaker 1: and programs in the twelve Steps, and he's going to

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Speaker 1: be honest about, you know, where those things led him.

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Speaker 1: And he's even going to talk about in a sense,

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Speaker 1: the false gospel that he feels like he that he

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Speaker 1: embraced as a result of those for so long, and

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Speaker 1: so I ask him some really important questions. He answers

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Speaker 1: them with grace and compassion, And so I think this

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Speaker 1: is a really important episode for a variety of reasons

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Speaker 1: and for a variety of people, but especially those who

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Speaker 1: either really are involved in AA and twelve step culture.

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Speaker 1: I think it might give you a perspective that is important,

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Speaker 1: or those who have just never felt really attracted to

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Speaker 1: the AA or twelve step culture, that's me, I think

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Speaker 1: it will be helpful. I'm not categorically against AA. Brett

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Speaker 1: and I talk about that, we talk about the place

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Speaker 1: that it can serve, but in the end, we always

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Speaker 1: prefer and push, if you will, a gospel centered recovery approach,

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Speaker 1: and so Brett will talk about what that means, what

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Speaker 1: that looks like, and just kind of where this all

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Speaker 1: fits in. And so I'm just so grateful and so

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Speaker 1: thankful for his candor and his story and his boldness

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Speaker 1: here real quickly, if you head over to Veritasrecovery dot org,

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Speaker 1: you can see a variety of other resources that I

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Speaker 1: have put together. That is the nonprofit that I have started.

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Speaker 1: Would love for you to check that out. And you

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Speaker 1: can also go to Christianlcoholic dot com to grab my

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Speaker 1: book as well as get the the U Verse Bible

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Speaker 1: app Bible study that's based on those principles. So felt

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Speaker 1: further Ado Brett Smith Brett, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. This has

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Speaker 1: been a long time coming because we actually at a

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Speaker 1: little look behind the curtain. We've actually recorded a full episode,

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Speaker 1: and I think both of us after and I have

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Speaker 1: only re recorded I think one or two other episodes

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Speaker 1: and that was because either like the file was corrupt

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Speaker 1: or whatever. But you and I both after we sat

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Speaker 1: with the episode for a while, we just felt like

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Speaker 1: we could have said more, or we should have said

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Speaker 1: something differently, or I don't know, we just both felt

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Speaker 1: that way. And so this is actually our second attempt

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Speaker 1: at recording it. And if people are hearing this, that

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Speaker 1: means the attempt went well. And so I'm excited because

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Speaker 1: you have been such a help in my life as

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Speaker 1: I have approached you know, what we call gospel senate recovery.

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Speaker 1: And it's not like a new term. It's not something

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Speaker 1: that you know came up with, but it's an idea

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Speaker 1: that's not really popular as some might think, even in

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Speaker 1: the Christian community. And so we're going to talk about that.

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Speaker 1: But first of all, before we get into your full

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Speaker 1: on story, and you know, what I said in the

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Speaker 1: intro is the concept of being saved from sobriety, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of a really catchy and interesting title. Tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm forty one years old. I live in Louisville, Kentucky.

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Speaker 2: I am a member at Third Avenue Baptist Church. I've

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Speaker 2: been doing heavy civil construction estimating project management for about

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Speaker 2: twenty years now. So I live in Louisville. I work

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Speaker 2: remotely for a heavy civil contractor in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. And

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Speaker 2: I also am involved in the Chicago Course on Preaching

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Speaker 2: the Charles Simeon Trust, which is a parachurch ministry that

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Speaker 2: trains men and women to preach, teach expositionally and essentially

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Speaker 2: like preach the word uh exege eat it faithfully, preach

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Speaker 2: it faithfully, apply it faithfully.

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Speaker 3: And so yeah, that's kind of a snapshot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, single, ladies, he's single, Yeah, very single, very very single.

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Speaker 1: But and I say that because because Brett and I

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Speaker 1: have joked about that for years.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all good, so.

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Speaker 1: Brett. Before we get into kind of what I think

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Speaker 1: are some very important thoughts and distinctions and things that

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Speaker 1: set gospel recovery apart from secular recovery, why don't you

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Speaker 1: tell us your story, because you have a story of alcoholism.

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Speaker 1: You have a story of what it looks like to

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Speaker 1: get sober but then to still be in a sense

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Speaker 1: miserable or still be missing something, and that led you

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Speaker 1: into gospel sin and recovery. So take us through, first

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Speaker 1: of all, your story of alcoholism.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's cool too.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at the date here at the bottom right

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Speaker 2: of my computer screen. So we're having this conversation right

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Speaker 2: now on January twenty six, twenty twenty six, Lord Willing,

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Speaker 2: this Friday, January thirtieth will be five thousand days of

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Speaker 2: sobriety from alcohol for me. So my sobriety day, by

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Speaker 2: the grace of God, is May twenty fourth of twenty twelve,

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Speaker 2: and so again this Friday is five thousand days since then,

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Speaker 2: I think a little over thirteen and a half years or.

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Speaker 3: Something like that.

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Speaker 2: So it's cool, just the grace of God to even

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Speaker 2: be able to have this conversation. If you would have said, Hey,

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Speaker 2: at some point, you'll approach five thousand days of not

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Speaker 2: taking a sip of alcohol. I would have thought you

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Speaker 2: were crazy because I could not imagine a day or

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Speaker 2: a week without alcohol, and so yeah, kind of the

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Speaker 2: flyover version.

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Speaker 3: I grew up Catholic.

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Speaker 2: We were at church pretty much every Sunday, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of great things in our home. They're also like,

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Speaker 2: outside of my dad working full time, he was a

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Speaker 2: rodeo cowboy, so there was that work hard, play hard mentality,

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Speaker 2: and I think from a really early age I liked that.

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Speaker 2: I liked like this lifestyle of the drinking, the womanizing

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Speaker 2: and so like. Even as a little kid, like eight nine,

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Speaker 2: ten years old, I wanted to be able to like

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Speaker 2: take SIPs off of my dad and his friend's beers.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be able to drink a wine cooler.

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Speaker 2: And then, especially as I got into high school, if

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Speaker 2: my dad and his friends were having people over and

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Speaker 2: they were drinking, I wanted to figure out, like how

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Speaker 2: could I sneak some alcohol or maybe even try to

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Speaker 2: take advantage of the adults once they had been drinking

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Speaker 2: to where they're just letting my friends and I drink

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Speaker 2: with reckless abandon and so I would just say from

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Speaker 2: a young age, I was drawn to it. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to indulge in it, and in high school, for the

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Speaker 2: most part, I didn't. My dad was pretty protective of

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Speaker 2: us in the sense that like, couldn't go stay the

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Speaker 2: night at people's houses if the parents weren't going to

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Speaker 2: be there. And so a lot of my friends in

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Speaker 2: high school were partying pretty consistently. For me, it was

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Speaker 2: more just kind of here and there. So I ended

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Speaker 2: up getting a full ride academic scholarship to Arizona State

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Speaker 2: University for construction management, and I as I started at

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Speaker 2: Arizona State University, just went off the deep end immediately. So,

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Speaker 2: like all of the stuff that I want to do

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Speaker 2: in high school, now I'm living on campus at what

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Speaker 2: was one of the top party schools. I'm sure it

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Speaker 2: still is, but like it was notorious back then for

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Speaker 2: like ASU is where you go if you just want

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Speaker 2: to go wild. And so I'm like seventeen years old,

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Speaker 2: a freshman at Arizona State University living in the Quadrangles,

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Speaker 2: like one of the main apartment complexes on campus, and

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Speaker 2: it's known for partying, and dude, I just went wild.

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Speaker 2: Like I wasn't even showing up to some of my classes,

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Speaker 2: like did not care about anything. I was able to

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Speaker 2: do whatever I wanted. I had a fake ID that

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Speaker 2: scanned and essentially just was like a shaken bottle. Now

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Speaker 2: the top has come off and it's just going wild.

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Speaker 2: So really, my life from like that point seventeen, starting

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Speaker 2: at Arizona State University up until twenty seven when I

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Speaker 2: got sober, it was ten years of work hard, play hard,

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Speaker 2: and for me, the drinking for the most part, was

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Speaker 2: a weekend thing. So maybe it was thirsty Thursdays, like

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Speaker 2: we'd go party on Thursday night, show up hungover to

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Speaker 2: work on Friday, for sure, party Friday night, party Saturday,

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Speaker 2: maybe sometimes on Sunday. But for the most part, it

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Speaker 2: was just a weekend or a long weekend thing. Now

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Speaker 2: I avoided so many consequences. I did get one DUI.

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Speaker 2: I easily could have got dozens of duys. It's literally

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Speaker 2: a miracle that I didn't hurt someone else or hurt

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Speaker 2: myself drinking and driving so many times that I drove

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Speaker 2: and had no recollection of driving the next day. I

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Speaker 2: got multiple minoring consumptions before I had even turned twenty one.

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Speaker 2: I had that fake ID taken, and I think I

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Speaker 2: was threatened with legal action. So so many different things happening.

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Speaker 2: What's is like, I am definitely not a Christian. Even

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Speaker 2: though we had grown up going to Catholic mass, I

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Speaker 2: had heard the Bible read, we prayed, I went through

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Speaker 2: first Communion and some of the other sacraments. I had

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Speaker 2: a belief in God, but it was definitely not the

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Speaker 2: God of the Bible.

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Speaker 3: It was not God for who he really is.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely not who the Scripture reveals him to be

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Speaker 2: and who he is revealed to be in the person

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Speaker 2: and work of Jesus Christ. And so really just this vague,

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Speaker 2: distorted conception of God. And I just really liked doing

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Speaker 2: whatever I wanted to do, and so I ended up

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Speaker 2: losing that scholarship pretty quickly. And even though I'm living

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Speaker 2: this life of like unhinged rebellion, full blown sin, I mean,

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Speaker 2: the drunkenness is just one part of it. There's rampant

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Speaker 2: sexual immorality, strip clubs, I mean, doing anything and everything

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do. Even in all of that, like

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Speaker 2: I still was able to get a really good job

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Speaker 2: at a construction company even though I had lost my

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Speaker 2: scholarship for construction management, and by the time I would

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Speaker 2: have graduated with a degree from Arizona State University's construction

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Speaker 2: management program, I had already climbed the ladder pretty far

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Speaker 2: in this construction company and was already way ahead of

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Speaker 2: where anyone would be had they got a degree and

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Speaker 2: were then trying to enter construction management. And so I

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Speaker 2: say that to say, like, just God's kindness towards me,

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Speaker 2: even in the midst of me living in full blown rebellion,

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Speaker 2: or I.

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Speaker 1: Wonder too sometimes like sometimes he just gives us over

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Speaker 1: to what we want.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure, Yeah, definitely giving me over to what

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Speaker 2: I want with the drinking, the sexual morality, even the money.

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Speaker 3: And all of that.

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Speaker 2: But to be able to keep a job and to

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Speaker 2: do really well at that job, I think it's just

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Speaker 2: it's like his rainfalls on the just and the unjust.

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Speaker 2: I think it was just a kindness towards me that

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Speaker 2: clearly I did not deserve, don't deserve anything. And so

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Speaker 2: with the drinking though, it would really take center stage

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Speaker 2: when I was in a relationship, so like if it's

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Speaker 2: just me and all my friends we're partying, it's like

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Speaker 2: we're doing the same things every weekend. I mean we

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Speaker 2: literally would talk about like Saturday morning, Sunday mornings, like

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Speaker 2: we're like getting away with murder, Like we are partying

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Speaker 2: so hard, we're doing crazy things and we know that

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Speaker 2: like we're flirting with death, we're flirting with legal consequences,

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Speaker 2: We're flirting with all kinds of stuff, all kinds of disaster.

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Speaker 2: When I would be in a relationship, I could usually

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Speaker 2: start out like pretty disciplined and like the girls excited

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Speaker 2: to be in the relationship with me. I'm excited to

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Speaker 2: be in the relationship with her. At some point though,

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Speaker 2: like me trying to manage the drinking, maintain composure, and

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Speaker 2: really when I'm like drunk, not be a fool, not

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Speaker 2: say hurtful things, not flirt with other girls or do

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Speaker 2: stupid things like Eventually the relationship would start to unravel,

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Speaker 2: And usually the common denominator was my drinking and just

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Speaker 2: all the different ways that that impacted me and whoever

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Speaker 2: I was dating. And so at one of these low

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Speaker 2: points in a relationship that is now starting to fall apart,

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Speaker 2: this particular girl, her parents were very gracious to me,

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Speaker 2: very patient with me. Her dad had actually been sober.

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Speaker 2: I think at that point for around twenty years, and

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Speaker 2: he had been really involved in AA I think earlier

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Speaker 2: in his sobriety. At this point, I think he's maybe

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Speaker 2: attending a meeting a week or every other week, but

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Speaker 2: he's just kind of sitting back as really, my unraveling

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Speaker 2: is on full display. And at one of these low

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Speaker 2: points in this relationship with his daughter, he very lovingly

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Speaker 2: was like, hey, man, I don't know if you want

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Speaker 2: to hear this, but I think you might have a

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Speaker 2: problem with alcohol. And at this point, I might be

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Speaker 2: around twenty two or twenty three years old, and that

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Speaker 2: is the last thing that I want to hear. And

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Speaker 2: even though there's like something inside of me that's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: this is a little problematic, like what I'm drinking, how

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Speaker 2: much I'm drinking, like the consequences relationships just crumbling, Like

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Speaker 2: there's there's an awareness inside of me, but kind of

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Speaker 2: like you said, like the Lord gives us over, like

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Speaker 2: if this is what you want, have your fill, we

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Speaker 2: suppress the truth and unrighteousness.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. Yeah, And I think

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Speaker 1: I think it's so interesting because I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people I know I have this. I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of people I've interviewed on this podcast, is there.

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Speaker 1: If we're honest with ourselves, there is a point, likely

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Speaker 1: very early on, where we're like, this is this is

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Speaker 1: not good?

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Speaker 3: Oh for sure.

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Speaker 1: Now, if we were called if and when we were

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Speaker 1: called out about it, at that point, we denied it,

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Speaker 1: you know, up and down. But I think it's so interesting.

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Speaker 1: There's something there, right that we just suppress.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure. Yeah, it's even if it's the faintest voice.

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Speaker 2: I mean, unless someone has drank or used drugs to

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Speaker 2: the point where like they've actually compromised like their cognitive

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Speaker 2: abilities to like think rationally. I think that even if

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Speaker 2: it's the faintest voice, all of us experience that at

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Speaker 2: least at some point. Now, maybe it gets to a

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Speaker 2: point where it's been so numbed and drowned that that

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Speaker 2: you can't even hear the voice anymore type thing.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I agree with you.

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Speaker 2: And so he's like, hey, like maybe you should consider

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Speaker 2: going to an a meeting just to see like what

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Speaker 2: you think. And so at this point, like when I

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Speaker 2: would drink and especially like on the backside of like

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Speaker 2: these weekend binges, I would feel anxious, I would even

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Speaker 2: feel depressed, especially like if I got in an argument

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Speaker 2: with my girlfriend and like I'm having to look through

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Speaker 2: text messages to try to even piece together like Sherlock Holmes,

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Speaker 2: what did I say the night before that has her

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Speaker 2: so mad at me?

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Speaker 3: Type thing?

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Speaker 2: And so like in one of these low moments where

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Speaker 2: like I'm definitely not willing to admit that I have

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Speaker 2: a problem, or definitely not willing to admit that I'm

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Speaker 2: an alcoholic. I'm willing to acknowledge that, hey, there might

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Speaker 2: be some sort of a problem here, but yeah, just

330
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Speaker 2: really not having any answers or any reasons to justify

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Speaker 2: continuing to do what I was doing. At one point,

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Speaker 2: I end up committing to doing ninety AA meetings in

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Speaker 2: ninety days and really like that thing, right, it's called

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Speaker 2: ninety and ninety Oh for sure, totally a thing. And

335
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Speaker 2: he was encouraging me like, hey, like do ninety and ninety.

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Speaker 2: You're going to hear people share their story. You're gonna

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Speaker 2: hear people talk about alcoholism. You're gonna hear from the

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Speaker 2: Big Book, which is the book that Alcoholics Anonymous is

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Speaker 2: based on. It's actually just called Alcoholics Anonymous, as you know.

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Speaker 2: And he was essentially was saying like, I'm not telling

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Speaker 2: you you're an alcoholic, like you decide for yourself. And

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Speaker 2: so really, I commit to do this ninety and ninety

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Speaker 2: not because I think I'm an alcoholic, and definitely not

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Speaker 2: because I'm planning to never drink again. It's actually to

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Speaker 2: prove to them that I'm not an alcoholic and that

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Speaker 2: I could not drink for ninety days and essentially just

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Speaker 2: demonstrate that. Yeah, like, maybe this has been problematic at times,

348
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Speaker 2: but it's not like an alcoholism problem. It's a lack

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Speaker 2: of self control sometimes problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, which I think is so like I told

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Speaker 1: myself that, and I think there's a lot of people listening.

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Speaker 1: There's a different between problematic drinking and having a drinking problem,

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Speaker 1: oh for sure. And I think we live on that,

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Speaker 1: like we like that keeps us in bondage for a

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Speaker 1: long time.

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Speaker 2: Oh for sure, for sure, especially as Christians, because like, yes,

357
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Speaker 2: even if a problematic drinker is not an alcoholic, if

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Speaker 2: you're flirting or even drinking past the point of drunkenness,

359
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Speaker 2: whether you're an alcoholic or not, you're in sin. So

360
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Speaker 2: then it's a whole nother thing for the believer. But yeah, man,

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Speaker 2: I essentially commit to do the ninety and ninety. I

362
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Speaker 2: do ninety and ninety. I go to a meeting every

363
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Speaker 2: single day. I don't drink for ninety days. And I

364
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Speaker 2: actually paid attention, Like I didn't just sit in there

365
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Speaker 2: and try to fantasize about anything and everything like other

366
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Speaker 2: than where I am in that moment, Like I actually

367
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Speaker 2: paid attention. AM listening. So I'm hearing people read from

368
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Speaker 2: the Big Book. I'm hearing people read the steps and

369
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Speaker 2: talk through different steps. I'm hearing people share their testimonies,

370
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Speaker 2: and I'm definitely relating to some of what they say.

371
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Speaker 2: I'm definitely encouraged by the vulnerability. I'm encouraged by what

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Speaker 2: is a clear intentionality to help other people. I refused

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Speaker 2: to identify as an alcoholic, so like in every meeting

374
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Speaker 2: you have to essentially say, like, Hi, my name is Brett,

375
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Speaker 2: and I'm alcoholic. I think I said, I mean this

376
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: was almost fourteen, Well no, this was almost twenty years

377
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: ago now, because this was before I actually got sober.

378
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,239
Speaker 2: I think I said, like, my name is Brett, and

379
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Speaker 2: I have a desire to stop drinking, which that wasn't

380
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Speaker 2: even truthful, Like I did not have a desire to

381
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Speaker 2: stop drinking. But it was better than saying my name

382
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Speaker 2: is Brett and I'm an alcoholic. And I had some

383
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Speaker 2: people come up to me during those ninety days and

384
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Speaker 2: they're like, what are you even doing here? And I'm

385
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Speaker 2: like i'd get like offended, Like I'm just like, man,

386
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Speaker 2: I'm just figuring stuff out, like like.

387
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 3: What does it matter to you? Type thing?

388
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Speaker 2: Is there essentially like oh, if you're here, you've got

389
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: to be an alcoholic type thing. So anyway, dude, Day

390
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Speaker 2: ninety one, like literally, I'm at a bar as the

391
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 2: clock strikes midnight with some friends and we have a

392
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Speaker 2: few victory beers and I end up like in that

393
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Speaker 2: moment like I don't get drunk. I don't even think

394
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Speaker 2: I got buzzed. I just had a few beers. This

395
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Speaker 2: is now, it's a Sunday, so Saturday night at midnight.

396
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Speaker 2: Now it's Sunday morning at like twelve thirty am. Bars

397
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: are open until two in Phoenix. So having these few

398
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Speaker 2: victory beers, go home later than that same day there's

399
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: an Eric Church concert. This is all like in Tempe, Arizona,

400
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 2: and we go to the bars on Mill Avenue, which

401
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: is like the main street at Arizona. State University with

402
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: a all the bars, and dude, I get absolutely annihilated,

403
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: and by the time I get into the concert, I

404
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: don't even think I'm in there for thirty minutes before

405
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 2: I get kicked out of the concert for being so intoxicated.

406
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,959
Speaker 2: Now what's crazy is like I went into that not

407
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,719
Speaker 2: planning to get annihilated. I thought, for sure, I'm going

408
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 2: to go to the bars, control it, obviously, have fun.

409
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: It's not like I'm not trying to get drunk, but

410
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to be a controlled, know what I'm doing,

411
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: drunk having fun type thing. And so you want to

412
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Speaker 2: talk about the next morning when I had done the

413
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 2: ninety and ninety, I had heard them talk about its

414
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Speaker 2: language from the Big Book, incomprehensible demoralization, and like I

415
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 2: felt incomprehensible demoralization because now I'm like, oh, I have

416
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 2: a problem, Like it's clear that I'm not in control.

417
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Speaker 2: And really, from that point up in until I got

418
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Speaker 2: sober at twenty seven, because it was probably another three

419
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Speaker 2: four years, I'm continuing to drink, essentially running from the

420
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: very clear awareness in the back of my mind that

421
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Speaker 2: I am an alcoholic.

422
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Speaker 1: So can I ask you about that? Because I've had.

423
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Speaker 1: I had I don't know if I've had such as

424
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: clear of a delineation in my story, but I know

425
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 1: there was a point that I realized I can't really

426
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 1: control this. Yeah, I mean my rock bottom moment. I

427
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: finally admitted that right out loud if you will, or

428
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: finally accepted it maybe, But okay, So you have that realization,

429
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: you're like, man, I really can't control this, and then

430
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 1: is it just like well, I mean drinking, that feeling

431
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: and that thought away for that next three years or

432
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 1: what is really the thought process over that three years

433
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: of where you come to that realization and then until

434
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: you get sober? For sure.

435
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,640
Speaker 2: One of the things that clicked was I assume that

436
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: the alcoholic was the person living under the bridge that

437
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: can't stop drinking and has lost everything. One of the

438
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 2: things that I heard in ninety meetings in ninety days

439
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:19,199
Speaker 2: is it's not how much you drink or even how

440
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: often you drink that makes you an alcoholic. It's what

441
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: happens the majority of the time when you drink, even

442
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: if that's once a year. So again, not about how

443
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 2: much you're drinking daily or even how often you're drinking

444
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 2: does matter. Obviously, if someone is drinking every single day

445
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: tons like, then that's a pretty clear indication that they're

446
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 2: likely an alcoholic. But this what happens when you drink

447
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 2: the majority of the time. And I mean for years

448
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: and years, I would go out with a genuine intention

449
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 2: not to get annihilated. Don't get me wrong, I wanted

450
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 2: to get buzzed. I even wanted to be drunk, Like

451
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: remember the whole night drunk, had fun, drunk, didn't burn

452
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 2: bridges drunk. Like again, I'm not a Christian, so like

453
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: I'm thinking drunk in all the best ways and time

454
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: and time again. The next morning, I have no idea

455
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: what happened the night before. And even though I had

456
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: went out with a genuine intention to not get annihilated

457
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: and so learning like, oh man, once I start drinking

458
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: more often than not, I will drink to access to

459
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: where even I would say that makes no sense to

460
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: drink as much as I did last night, and you

461
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 2: do it again and again and again, and really, as

462
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: I continued to drink even after that moment, kind of

463
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: like you said, like what happened when I finally got sober,

464
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: it was just me running from the truth. I knew

465
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: it was true, and I did not want it to

466
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 2: be true, and I wouldn't have had this language back then.

467
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: But alcohol and what it did for me, it was

468
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: my God. My life was oriented around the worship of

469
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: alcohol and probably even more alcohol as a means to

470
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: an end of peace of mind, escaping from the stress

471
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: of life. Like there's all types of things that I'm

472
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 2: sure I was using alcohol as a means to an

473
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: end to get, but it really it was worship. Like

474
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: life outside of work did not make sense to me

475
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: if it wasn't centered on drinking and enjoying yourself.

476
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Okay, so take us to when

477
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: you finally, you know, do get sober.

478
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 3: Yeah.

479
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: So, at this point, still not a Christian, I had

480
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: paid attention in the ninety meetings, like like I had said,

481
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: and so so I knew like in the back of

482
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: my mind, if I ever did get sober, I wasn't

483
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: going to mess around. I was going to I was

484
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: going to do everything that I had heard them talk

485
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: about when I went to ninety meetings in ninety days.

486
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: I was going to do another another ninety and ninety

487
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: at a minimum. I was going to get a sponsor immediately.

488
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: I was going to start working the steps immediately. I

489
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: was going to sign up for service commitments immediately, like

490
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: everything that was suggested I was going to do. And

491
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: so fast forward to I'm twenty seven years old. I'm

492
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 2: in a different relationship with a girl, and again it

493
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: just crumbles, largely due to my drinking. And on the

494
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: backside of that relationship, I had this like reality or epiphany,

495
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: if you will, where like if I ever wanted to

496
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: be married, there was no way that that would ever

497
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: happen if I was drinking, and like it still might

498
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: not happen. I mean, I'm still not married. I'm forty

499
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: one now, but like there was just this clarity, like, man,

500
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: no relationship is ever going to work if I'm drinking. Now,

501
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: relationships might not work for other reasons, but I didn't

502
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: want them to no longer work because of the drinking,

503
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: and so like really me getting sober, it's it's just like, okay, well,

504
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: alcohol and what it did for me was uppermost in

505
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 2: my affections. Now it's like this hope of marriage is uppermost.

506
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: So the new worship, if you will, the new object

507
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: of worship is like I want to be able to

508
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: get married someday and not have it not work because

509
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: of alcohol. So dude, I just immerse myself in AA

510
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: and everything that I had learned years prior I do.

511
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: I probably went to well over one hundred meeting in

512
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: the first ninety days, immediately got a sponsor, start working

513
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: the steps. I start sponsoring other guys. They're sponsoring other guys.

514
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: I'm hosting like big book studies, so like similar to

515
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: how people at Bible Studies were like studying the book

516
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: Alcoholics anonymous, like at my house having coffee with like

517
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: guys that I sponsor, guys that they're sponsoring. I'm starting

518
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: to speak at meetings. I'm serving at meetings, maybe setting

519
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: up tables or like setting up coffee or taking out trash.

520
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: Like outside of working full time, I was as all

521
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 2: in on AA as you could possibly be. Like everything

522
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: that you could do, I am doing and I get sober,

523
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: and by the grace of God, almost five thousand days later,

524
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 2: I'm still sober.

525
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: Now where all of this to get real.

526
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: Interesting in the best way is it was around this

527
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: same time, I think even before I had actually quit drinking,

528
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: I had started occasionally attending a faithful church in Tempe, Arizona,

529
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 2: is called redemption temp. I had none of this language

530
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: back then, but it was a church where complementarian in

531
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: terms of it's like church polity, reform theology, expositional preaching.

532
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 2: I know that everyone listening to this may not align

533
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 2: with that or may not even know what I'm talking about.

534
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: That meant a lot to me, Like I didn't even

535
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: know what it was, and I'm like, yes, yes, yes

536
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: to this, and it's still what I value and believe.

537
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: And so anyway, the point is, I walk into an

538
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: incredible church. And even though I had grown up going

539
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 2: to Catholic Mass pretty much every Sunday for the first

540
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: seventeen years of my life, since moving out and going

541
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: to college, the only times I ever went to church

542
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: were on like Christmas or Easter, and it would typically

543
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: be Catholic Mass, like with family. So now here I am,

544
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: at twenty seven years old, going to this non denominational

545
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: church because I want to, because I'm curious. Now I'm

546
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: not yet a Christian, but I'm curious about Jesus. I'm

547
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: curious about the Bible. And when I go to this church,

548
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 2: like I am starting to hear very faithful gospel proclamation.

549
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 2: Now as I get sober and I'm all in on AA, Like,

550
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 2: outside of working full time, ninety nine percent of my

551
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 2: activity is in AA. But I'm starting to pretty consistently

552
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: go to that church on Sundays. I also start reading

553
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 2: the Bible for the first time in my life. Had

554
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 2: never read the Bible, and I just start reading. And

555
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 2: this is probably six months or a year into sobriety.

556
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, like, yeah, I know that AA says like

557
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 2: came to believe in a higher power, like as you

558
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: understand him to be, like God is whoever you want

559
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: God to be. But like I'm thinking, like, yeah, Jesus

560
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 2: is my higher power. I'm going to that church, I'm

561
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:30,839
Speaker 2: reading my Bible. I'm thinking at first that like all

562
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 2: of this is going to play super nice in the sandbox,

563
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 2: Like I'm not anticipating any sort of rub or conflict

564
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 2: between everything I'm.

565
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 3: Doing in AA and learning.

566
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: Really about the God of the Bible and Christianity. And

567
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 2: at this point I probably would have told you I

568
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: was a Christian because I'm going to church and I'm

569
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: reading the Bible, and I'm doing those things because I

570
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,439
Speaker 2: want to do them. But I was convinced that point

571
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 2: I was not yet a Christian. And so kind of,

572
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 2: like you said at the intro, and even where we're

573
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 2: at now, like saved from sobriety is appropriate because this

574
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: is kind of where all of that started to come

575
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 2: to a head.

576
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: So and maybe we'll kind of get here, but well,

577
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 1: I'll save that question. I'll save that question, all right,

578
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: keep going, So you start bring us to the point

579
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: where because if your story is saved from sobriety, right,

580
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: I think, and I'm not going to ruin the ending

581
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: for people, but one of the things that you have

582
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: become passionate about is and it's something I'm passionate about, right,

583
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: is that sobriety cannot be the ultimate goal. And and

584
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: so what I talk about in my book, what I

585
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: talk about on this podcast a lot, where I talk

586
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: about in my ministry is that Jesus has to be

587
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: the ultiate goal. It's not that you can't get sober

588
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: without Jesus. Certainly millions of people have, oh for sure,

589
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: But you're missing out on two things. You're missing out

590
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: in the most flourishing, fulfilled life now Indian eternity. Right. Yeah,

591
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: So bring us to the point where you start to realize, hey,

592
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: it's not enough just to be sober.

593
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I would even raise the stakes a little

594
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 2: bit as I'm like reading the Bible more and more

595
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: and I'm attending that church consistently and hearing faithful preaching.

596
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 3: What I'm.

597
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 2: Learning, and even teaching others in AA is starting to

598
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: rub with what I'm reading in the Bible. And so

599
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 2: you've got the last chapter before I think it gets

600
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 2: into like the stories in the Big Book where it's

601
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: like this, this invitation to join join us on the

602
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 2: broad Highway to happy destiny. And AA is not ambiguous

603
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 2: at all. It is a universalist program. God is whoever

604
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: you want God to be or it to be like

605
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 2: there's there's total clarity from AA that it is regardless

606
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 2: of the Christian influence. It's not a Christian program. It

607
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 2: is a universalist program. So that's where I wanted to

608
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 2: go earlier.

609
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 1: And so so now we're here and I would say, okay,

610
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: So what I hear from so many people is, well,

611
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 1: AA is is you know the Oxford Group, Bill w

612
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: the Good Doctor. It is based in Christian principles, It's

613
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: based in the Book of James. And so many people

614
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: use that and say, look, there's nothing wrong with it.

615
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 1: Then how do you. What's your response to that.

616
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:58,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.

617
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 2: I actually would say that the influence of the Oxford Group,

618
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: which I'm not second guessing the Oxford Group at all.

619
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: From everything I understand about the Oxford Group, they were

620
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,719
Speaker 2: faithful believers. So it's more dangerous in the sense of

621
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: you've got this original Christian influence. You do have some scripture,

622
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 2: like from James, faith without works is dead. You clearly

623
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 2: have biblical principles throughout the book, and even if you

624
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: read the Twelve Steps, there's like these echoes of biblical principles.

625
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 2: But essentially what Bill and doctor Bob did was they

626
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:52,240
Speaker 2: took the Christian influence, but they removed Christ. And whether

627
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 2: or not Bill and doctor Bob were Christians, I have

628
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: no idea, due there are so many people, like if

629
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: you go down those rabbit trails, there are people who

630
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 2: would stake their lives on them being believers, and there

631
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: are other people who would stake their lives on they

632
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: were not believers. I obviously hope they were believers. What

633
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: is indisputable is that Christ, the gospel of faithful Christian worldview,

634
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: was removed from the program and from the Twelve Steps,

635
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: and so whatever the Oxford group was trying to do.

636
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that was totally christ centered, even faithful to

637
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: the Word of God. If you just read the Big Book,

638
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 2: it is totally not like complimentary to the Word of God.

639
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 2: It's totally a different worldview. I mean even just think

640
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 2: of this. So I mentioned that chapter that is kind

641
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 2: of like at the end of the first part of

642
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 2: the Big Book where it talks about join us on

643
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: the broad Highway to happy destiny. And what they're saying

644
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: is like, it doesn't matter who or what you believe in,

645
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: just practice these principles with us, walk this joyful path

646
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 2: of sobriety. And it's this broad path, broad highway to

647
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: happy destiny. As in, like, this is going to be

648
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 2: a great life and we're going to journey it together,

649
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 2: and the next life is going to be great too,

650
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: whatever happy destiny is. Jesus says in the Sermon on

651
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: the Mount literally his words are the path is broad

652
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 2: that leads to destruction, and those who find it are many,

653
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: and the way is narrow that leads to life, and

654
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: it's hard, and those who find it are few. And

655
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 2: like even just reading the Twelve Steps, it's making Gospel

656
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,800
Speaker 2: promises that you can be reconciled to God without the Gospel,

657
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 2: and so.

658
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: Explain that You've I've heard you say that before, and

659
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: I think it's a really powerful statement. Yeah, And let

660
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: me just say before we go any further, I haven't

661
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,919
Speaker 1: done a right so people listening to this, and I've

662
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 1: had people on here who are big proponents of AA.

663
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: I wanted to have Brett on here because I think

664
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 1: you offer a perspective that is important and I think

665
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: you have insight that I simply do not have. Right,

666
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: I have not gone through the twelve steps. People who've

667
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: read my books say, hey, they're they're kind of all

668
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: in there, right, like greatly, I'm not anti twelve steps,

669
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk about that in a second. I

670
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 1: want to get I want to get there, but talk

671
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: about that whole Gospel promises without being able to really

672
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: deliver for sure.

673
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: I mean, dude, even if you just think of the

674
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 2: story of the Bible, and I'm I'm I'm kinda specifically

675
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 2: referring to like the Old Testament Genesis three, like the

676
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 2: serpent deceives Adam and Eve by getting them to like

677
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: distrust God. Did God actually say? And then if you

678
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: just look at the whole story of the people of Israel.

679
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: They're constantly worshiping false gods. And that's like the main

680
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 2: problem of the Bible sin and the way that sin

681
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 2: plays out is in the worship of false gods, whether

682
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 2: it's people or things, anything other than the true God.

683
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 2: And so like when you even just think of Ebi

684
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: Thatcher's question to Bill Wilson, why don't you come up

685
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: with your own conception of God? And then you think,

686
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 2: explain that for people who don't know that, explain that. Yeah, yeah,

687
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: So Bill Wilson in the Big Book, he shares his

688
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: story and he's kind of talking about his life, and

689
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: I think he's making it pretty clear that he's got

690
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: frustrations with religion as he understood it. And I'm not

691
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 2: even saying that those wouldn't be legitimate frustrations. There are

692
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 2: horrible things that have done in the name of God.

693
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: But as he's sharing his story and really all of

694
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 2: these objections that he has to believing in God, and

695
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure he's referring to the God of the Bible.

696
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 2: The watershed moment for him, like when the scales fall

697
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: from his eyes, as he says, is when his friend

698
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 2: Ebbie Thatcher said, Okay, I understand you've got all these

699
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: hang ups with religion and what you've learned since you've

700
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: grown up. Why don't you come up with your own

701
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 2: conception of God? And so literally this watershed moment that

702
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 2: Bill Wilson describes where the scales came off his eyes.

703
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 2: He felt the nearness of his creator for the first time. Like, dude,

704
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: that question, why don't you come up with your own

705
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 2: conception of God? That is a satanic question, Like Jesus says,

706
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: I'm the way the truth in the life. No one

707
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: comes to the Father except through me to encourage someone

708
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 2: to to reject God as he's revealed himself in the

709
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 2: Bible and in the person and work of Jesus Christ,

710
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 2: and just to essentially make a God in their own image,

711
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,919
Speaker 2: one that they're good with, one that they actually get

712
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 2: to mold and shape, like it's just antithetical to Christianity.

713
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 2: And so tying that in with the Twelve Steps, like

714
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 2: first step we admitted we were powerless over alcohol and

715
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 2: that our lives had become unmanageable. Did our problems are

716
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: infinitely worse as humans than our lives being unmanageable and

717
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: us being powerless over alcohol. Those are symptoms and just

718
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 2: outworkings of an infinitely greater problem, which is our sin

719
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: and our separation from a holy God. So like even

720
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: step one, the diagnosis is already wrong. We have a

721
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 2: infinitely worse problem than alcohol. It's called sin. So then

722
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: you come to step two. Came to believe that a

723
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 2: power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. Now

724
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: that's that sounds nice, but it's this vague power greater

725
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: than ourselves. And then step three made the decision to

726
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: turn our will and our lives over to the care

727
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: of God. And here you go as we understood him.

728
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,319
Speaker 2: Like it is literally the twelve steps. It's you get

729
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,839
Speaker 2: to decide who God is. And dude, if I have

730
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: the power to literally decide who my higher power is,

731
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: I'm the higher power. Like if I get to choose

732
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: like whether God jumps or sits, or runs or walks,

733
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: or as a man or as a woman, or is

734
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 2: all loving and no judgment. I mean, dude, Literally, the

735
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 2: assignment that my sponsor had me do for my step

736
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 2: two Step three was like, write a pros and cons

737
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: list of what I want my God to have and

738
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: what I don't want him to have almost like treating

739
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 2: my higher power like Chipotle, like I want two scoop

740
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 2: of grace, two scoops of love. Definitely, no judgment, Definitely

741
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 2: no wrath. It's like, literally, we get to choose who

742
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,439
Speaker 2: our God is, and this is the God that we

743
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: believe in. And then you get to step twelve and

744
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: it says, having had a spiritual awakening as the result

745
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 2: of working these steps, we seek to practice these principles

746
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 2: and all of our affairs and carry the message to

747
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: the alcoholic who still suffers. Now, like for Christians to

748
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 2: have a spiritual awakening like that is very clearly to

749
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: be born again. It's the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus,

750
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 2: like you can only be born again by grace through

751
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,320
Speaker 2: faith in Jesus. And what's so wild again this language

752
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: of step twelve having had a spiritual awakening as the

753
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: result of working these steps. We're literally Ephesians two when

754
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 2: it's saved, we're saved by grace through faith, not the

755
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,479
Speaker 2: result of works. So it doesn't matter what steps you work.

756
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: We're saved, not the result of works, So that no

757
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: one may boast. But it's literally a gift that we

758
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: could never earn, we could never work, for it's by

759
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,720
Speaker 2: grace through faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

760
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: And so like this is where like it's I think

761
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: it's helpful, especially like for Christians in AA where like

762
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: maybe what I'm saying right now, like it's just hard

763
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 2: to wrap your mind around or maybe even just like

764
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: how could this possibly be true? Like it's not spiritually neutral,

765
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: And I think it's helpful for people to remember also

766
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: talked about in Ephesians that like our wrestle is not

767
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 2: against flesh and blood, but like there are spiritual realities

768
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 2: behind the scenes in all of this. And if you

769
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 2: just read the twelve steps verbatim, it's making the promise

770
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 2: that only the Gospel can actually keep, the promise that

771
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: you can actually be reconciled to a holy God and

772
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 2: repenting from your sin and believing in Jesus alone, not

773
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 2: the God that you create in your imagination that is

774
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 2: nowhere in the twelve steps. And so to promise people

775
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: that they can be spiritually awakened, i e. Born again,

776
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,399
Speaker 2: whether or not Jesus is in the picture at all,

777
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: whether or not they believe the Gospel at all, that's

778
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 2: a false gospel, and this is where it's it's understandable

779
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 2: to me, but it's also very confusing to me how

780
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: Christians in AA who think AA is like actually a

781
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: gift from God, how they can't see that.

782
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: Let's go there because I think that's My next question

783
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 1: is do you think that Christians can participate in AA

784
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 1: in good conscience?

785
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 2: So I definitely think because of the conscious component this

786
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: Romans fourteen whatever doesn't proceed from faith to sin. It's

787
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 2: going to vary for everybody. The way that I would

788
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: kind of talk about it just quickly is my preference

789
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 2: would be that someone would be involved in a gospel

790
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: centered recovery ministry where it's unapologetically centered on the person

791
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 2: at work of Christ. If that's not available where they are,

792
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:28,319
Speaker 2: I would, without hesitation, send them to celebrate recovery. If

793
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: there's nothing around them. We've obviously got the internet now

794
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: there are online gospel centered groups that they could like

795
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 2: join and be active in weekly. I would definitely want them,

796
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 2: assuming they're a believer, to be plugged into a local

797
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 2: church Lord willing a member serving in that church, being

798
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 2: discipled in that church, known by people in that church.

799
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 2: And let's say if all of that is in place,

800
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 2: but they're still just like they need more structure. I

801
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 2: would tell them, like, hey, if none of these other

802
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,319
Speaker 2: in person like Gospel Center, recovery ministries or see our

803
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: ministries are an option where you live, you could definitely

804
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: go to AA meetings. They can be helpful in the

805
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: sense of you're around other people who are struggling like

806
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 2: we do, and there's the structure of like, hey, on Mondays,

807
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,280
Speaker 2: I don't have anything with the church or my online

808
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 2: group doesn't meet, so Monday's is kind of a vulnerable

809
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: day for me, so I am going to hit an

810
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 2: AA meeting on Mondays. I would just encourage them. Again,

811
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 2: this assumes this person as a Christian that like, when

812
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 2: you're in that meeting, it's probably helpful when you hear

813
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 2: someone share, especially if they've just relapsed and like your

814
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: heart breaks for them. That's good reminder for you not

815
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 2: to drink again. So it could be helpful in that way.

816
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,799
Speaker 2: Now when people are like teaching like from the Big Book,

817
00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: or maybe they're sharing their story, but really they're they're

818
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: also teaching like what AA teaches, just wanting that person

819
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 2: to understand, like you, you are not hearing a message

820
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 2: that is complimentary to the Gospel. You are hearing an

821
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 2: anti gospel message, like because Jesus either is who he

822
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 2: says he is, he's away the truth in the life

823
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: and no one comes to the Father except for him,

824
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 2: or he's not. And to be pushing steps and a

825
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 2: program that is unapologetically like with joy, encouraging people to

826
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,959
Speaker 2: make a God of their own image, however they want

827
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: this God to be. I mean, if you just imagine

828
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 2: in the Bible, like people saying like, go make your

829
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 2: own God, whatever you want it to be, Like, it's

830
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 2: just it's just so insane, it's so so antithetical to

831
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 2: what Christians believe. And yeah, I think that's where because

832
00:53:06,239 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 2: like I've even thought about this recently. Dude, I haven't

833
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 2: been to an AA meeting maybe in over a decade.

834
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I've been to one meeting

835
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 2: in the last ten years. And if I was in AA,

836
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 2: I don't even know if I could do it because

837
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 2: of my conscience. But if I did do it and

838
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: I was going to sponsor someone, I would have to

839
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: tell them up front, like, hey, there's a lot in

840
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 2: the Big Book, and there's a lot that is said

841
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: in these meetings that as a Christian I one hundred

842
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:41,919
Speaker 2: percent and unapologetically disagree with and like, if you want

843
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: me to sponsor you, I'm not going to talk about

844
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 2: God in a general way. I'm only going to pray

845
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: to and talk about the God that I believe in.

846
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 2: I believe the true God, and like our counsel is

847
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: going to come from the Word. And then if someone's like, yeah,

848
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 2: I'm just not interested in that, then that's totally fine,

849
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 2: Like they don't have to be interested in that.

850
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 3: But I think.

851
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: It is going to be a case by case for

852
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 2: a person of whether or not they would want to

853
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 2: serve in AA and try to sponsor people. I think

854
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: you could, but I think you would have to make

855
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 2: things very clear up front, like what you believe, and

856
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 2: be careful that you're not co signing what really is

857
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,399
Speaker 2: full blown idolatry and encouragement of idolatry.

858
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: Do you think as a Christian you can work the

859
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: steps and like, do you think they can be a

860
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: tool for discipleship?

861
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 2: Man, I I would much rather take someone through steps,

862
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 2: Like I know that you're familiar with the Steps program

863
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 2: that's at Citizens' Church in Plano, Texas. I mean we

864
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: have gospel centered christ exalting curriculum, and if I met

865
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 2: someone in a A that wanted to do like truly

866
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 2: Christ centered discipleship, to me, there's no point to even

867
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 2: use any of the AA stuff or try to make

868
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 2: it work. I would just want to use stuff that

869
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:20,480
Speaker 2: unapologetically is oriented around the Lord. Like for someone let's

870
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 2: say it's someone who's a Christian and they're they're in

871
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: AA not because they're like wanting to sponsor and evangelize,

872
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 2: but they're there because like they need help and they're scared.

873
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: I get that again. I would just want them to

874
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:41,359
Speaker 2: understand that they're not in spiritually neutral meetings. Like, dude,

875
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 2: I've probably been to over a thousand meetings. Like I know,

876
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,120
Speaker 2: I said, I haven't been to a meeting in over

877
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 2: ten years, but for the first few years of my sobriety,

878
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: I went to hundreds of meetings, probably over a thousand meetings.

879
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 2: This kind of gets it what I was talking about earlier,

880
00:55:55,200 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 2: with like we don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but

881
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 2: like the spiritual realities behind the scenes in a thousand meetings,

882
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 2: I never one time heard anyone tell someone else to

883
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 2: stop talking about their higher power, because like you've got

884
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 2: the twelve steps, but then you also have the twelve

885
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 2: traditions of AA.

886
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 3: And so usually the twelve traditions will.

887
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 2: Be used to correct someone when they're sharing something that

888
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:30,520
Speaker 2: isn't in line with someone's interpretation of the twelve traditions

889
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,600
Speaker 2: of AA. So what I'm getting at is in a

890
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:37,840
Speaker 2: thousand meetings, dude, you hear people talk about my God

891
00:56:37,960 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 2: is nature, My God is astrology, the stars, my God

892
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 2: is this group like literally people would say the acronym god,

893
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,720
Speaker 2: group of drunks. So like this gathered presence of people

894
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 2: in this meeting is their God. So like your God

895
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 2: could be anyone or anything, and you're not getting corrected.

896
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: But if you say that your God is Jesus, the

897
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 2: vast majority of the time you will have someone say,

898
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 2: don't talk about your God so specifically. And so like again,

899
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: just like Christian zoom out, Like Jesus is not welcome

900
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 2: in the majority of those rooms. Now, maybe you go

901
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 2: to an AA meeting in the Bible Belt and maybe

902
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 2: a lot of the people in the room are Christian.

903
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 2: Sure they probably talk about Jesus openly, unapologetically, But like

904
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the normal air of other meetings, people

905
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 2: can talk about whatever God they believe in. No one's

906
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: going to say a word you talk about Jesus, the

907
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 2: majority of the time, someone is going to tell you

908
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 2: to stop. And what's interesting, they're telling you to stop

909
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 2: because it could be a stumbling block to the new

910
00:57:55,920 --> 00:58:00,480
Speaker 2: person in AA who had a bad experience with religion.

911
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: So like, not only is Jesus like being silenced in

912
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 2: the room, but they're referring to him as a stumbling block,

913
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 2: which is just like again, as a Christian, to say

914
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 2: that Jesus is a stumbling block to somebody again is

915
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 2: totally satanic.

916
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 1: You're not the first and only person to bring that

917
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: up that you know, there's a lot more room for

918
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: the light socket to be a higher power than there

919
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: is Jesus especially, And this is like the secularization of

920
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 1: everything is only getting worse, right.

921
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 3: Oh for sure, for sure, we're not.

922
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: We're not trending towards a more Christian, a more holy society, right.

923
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: And so I think even if you could say, like

924
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,479
Speaker 1: in the beginning, it was a lot better, like it's

925
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,520
Speaker 1: just it's it's not there anymore, yea, Or even in.

926
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 2: The beginning, if it was an even in the beginning.

927
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 2: If a lot of the people, including Bill and doctor

928
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 2: Bob were Christians, no matter how Christian it was in

929
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 2: the sense of these people were genuine believers, which again

930
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 2: I hope they were. I hope they were. Yeah, it

931
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: does not matter how many of them were Christians. The

932
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 2: program that they finalized that is still available today is

933
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 2: an unapologetically universalist God is whoever you want God to be,

934
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:37,840
Speaker 2: making gospel promises without the Gospel program, and there's no

935
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 2: way around very clearly telling what it is, which is

936
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 2: a false gospel.

937
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 1: There are some authors Richard Roor is one of them,

938
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:56,040
Speaker 1: oh for sure. Ian Morgan Crone is another one who

939
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: have written books that have basically said, hey, we can

940
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: use the twelve steps to bring us closer to Christ.

941
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 1: Do you think that's possible? Do you think they're misguided?

942
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: Do you think what are they missing?

943
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah?

944
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 2: I would say they're severely, even spiritually dangerously misguided. I

945
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 2: would have to double check this. I'm fairly positive. Richard

946
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 2: Ror is quoted as saying that if the Gospel is

947
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,439
Speaker 2: true and that God the Father sent God the Son

948
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 2: willingly to die on a cross in our place, that

949
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 2: he is a cosmic child abuser. So I'm pretty sure

950
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 2: Richard Rhor totally rejects the Christian gospel. Anyway, that's a

951
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 2: whole other conversation. I've actually got books written by him.

952
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:55,479
Speaker 2: I hope to engage with more of that down the road.

953
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:00,840
Speaker 2: But yeah, I would say that these guys are very misguided.

954
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:07,160
Speaker 1: I want to go back to something you said, and

955
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: we're just I mean, we're just stepping on land mines

956
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,040
Speaker 1: in a good way. Like I think, like, let's go

957
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: for it right.

958
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 2: Well, and and and I'll tell you too, at one

959
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 2: point after you asked this next question or wherever you

960
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 2: want to take us, why I am so passionate about

961
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 2: being very clear with what I'm saying, even if I

962
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 2: know it might be hard for some people to hear it.

963
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:32,480
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, all right, we'll get there. You made this distinction,

964
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: you said, Hey, listen, my first my first preference would

965
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: be Gospel Center Recovery, a Gospel send and recovery program.

966
01:01:40,160 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: If not, then Celebrate Recovery. If not that, then AA

967
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: what is the difference between something like Gospel Center Recovery

968
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,919
Speaker 1: and Celebrate Recovery. Can the Celebrate Recovery be Gospel Sending

969
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: recovery why'd you draw that distinction. We'll be right back

970
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:55,760
Speaker 1: after this.

971
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, So at the end of the day, if a

972
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 2: celebrate recovery ministry was like the best option that someone had,

973
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 2: I would tell them to go for sure. The reason

974
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 2: I make a slight distinction is I've noticed that in

975
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 2: Celebrate Recovery because essentially what Rick Warren Saddleback Church did

976
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:29,800
Speaker 2: was let's take the good things in AA and make

977
01:02:29,880 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 2: them the best by clearly centering all of this on

978
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ, which is fantasy.

979
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 1: So I think there's a lot of people like, what

980
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: do you mean that's not gospel center recovery. Yeah, yeah, no,

981
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: for sure, I think where I would say there is

982
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:48,520
Speaker 1: a little bit of a distinction, and why I would

983
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: just encourage people more towards this gospel centered recovery ministry

984
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. We could even give examples.

985
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 2: I'm sure you've given examples of churches and ministries that

986
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 2: are like this, But I've noticed that there's still a

987
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 2: tendency in Celebrate recovery for there to be like a

988
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 2: quote unquote righteousness related to length of time and so like,

989
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 2: even though it works right like if you're and works yep,

990
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 2: and I've also noticed, and this to me again points

991
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 2: out the spiritual realities behind the scenes and why this

992
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 2: is so important. There are a lot of AA people who,

993
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,800
Speaker 2: based on how they carry themselves and what they say,

994
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,360
Speaker 2: seem to be more allegiant to AA than to Christ,

995
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 2: but who give lip service to Christ in the rooms

996
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 2: of CR. And again, that to me is just kind

997
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 2: of highlighting a spiritual danger. Now, don't get me wrong,

998
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 2: Like I go to a faithful church here in Louisville, Kentucky,

999
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 2: Like there are probably wolves in sheep's clothing in my

1000
01:04:03,080 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 2: own church, or there have been at times. So like,

1001
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that is a problem that is like

1002
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 2: only related to CR. I'm just saying that I've met

1003
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 2: a lot of people in those meetings where as you

1004
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 2: start to just ask questions, it seems to be that

1005
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: the program AA is uppermost in their affections. And like

1006
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 2: some of them, even unapologetically, will say, like I don't

1007
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 2: have Jesus without the twelve steps, and yeah, the program

1008
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 2: just gets elevated. And so yeah, in CR, like you said,

1009
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 2: there there can just still be this focus on works,

1010
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 2: this focus on like sobriety, righteousness, and that honestly ties

1011
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 2: in with what I was going to say, and kind

1012
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 2: of why I'm passionate about all of this. So like

1013
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 2: the breaking point for me because remember I went from

1014
01:04:57,720 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 2: being like AA's biggest fan, all in on it. Yeah,

1015
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 2: like poster boy love AA, can't get enough of AA.

1016
01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 2: I went from that place to the more and more

1017
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 2: I read the Bible, the more and more I sat

1018
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 2: under faithful preaching, and I'm just reading these things like

1019
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 2: Jesus and the Sermon on the Mount saying there are

1020
01:05:19,560 --> 01:05:21,760
Speaker 2: gonna be those on that day who say, Lord, Lord,

1021
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 2: didn't we cast out demons in your name and perform

1022
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 2: miracles in your name and prophesy in your name? Only

1023
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 2: for him to say, depart from me. You work as

1024
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 2: a lawlessness. I never knew you. And so like I'm like, okay,

1025
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 2: you could talk Christian, walk Christian, look Christian, and according

1026
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 2: to Jesus not be a Christian. And so like I'm

1027
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 2: starting to have this like holy spirit, like the Word

1028
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: of God is coming alive to me, and it's like

1029
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 2: it's so clearly saying things that are in total conflict

1030
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 2: with what I am believing and teaching other people in

1031
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 2: and then really the Lynchpin for me. And this is

1032
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:06,600
Speaker 2: why I'm so passionate about this and why I'm willing

1033
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 2: to speak unapologetically about it. Is when Jesus says, what

1034
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 2: is it profit a man if he gains the whole

1035
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 2: world but forfeits his soul? So like, if you're listening

1036
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 2: to this, like hear me loud and clear, I love sobriety.

1037
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 2: I am eternally grateful to God for sobriety. Sobriety is

1038
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 2: a really good thing. I hope to be sober for

1039
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 2: the rest of my life. If I get to live,

1040
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 2: Lord Willing another forty or fifty years, I hope, by

1041
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:43,440
Speaker 2: the grace of God, alcohol never touches my lips ever again.

1042
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 2: So like, I am as pro sobriety now as I've

1043
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 2: ever been. Love sobriety. It's a good gift. Jesus says,

1044
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: what does it profit a man if he gains the

1045
01:06:54,960 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 2: whole world, which includes everything good like sobriety? What is

1046
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 2: it profit a man if he gains everything, including good

1047
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 2: things like sobriety, and forfeits his soul? And that was

1048
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:10,960
Speaker 2: for me, I think probably the day of my conversion.

1049
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 2: I'm reading that at home, and it was in that

1050
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 2: moment where the Holy Spirit immediately as I'm reading that

1051
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 2: verse substituted the word sobriety for the world. And I'm

1052
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 2: sitting there on my couch thinking, what does it profit

1053
01:07:26,920 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 2: Brett if he's gained sobriety but has actually forfeited his soul. Now,

1054
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,760
Speaker 2: this is where it's even scarier for me. At this point,

1055
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 2: I would have told you I was a Christian. I'm

1056
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 2: reading the Bible. I'm going to church on Sundays. I'm

1057
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 2: telling people in AA unapologetically that Jesus is my higher power.

1058
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 2: I'm inviting other guys that I'm sponsoring in AA to

1059
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 2: come to church. So like, dude, I look like I'm

1060
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 2: a Christian. I talk like I'm a Christian. I think

1061
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 2: I'm a Christian. And when I read that verse about

1062
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:07,600
Speaker 2: gaining sobriety and forfeiting my soul, it was then I

1063
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 2: realized that I was just as dead in my sin,

1064
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 2: probably around a year sober at this point, with this

1065
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 2: cleaned up life helping other guys get sober. They're helping

1066
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 2: guys get sober. I'm taking them to church. I'm going

1067
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 2: to church. I'm reading the Bible. I was just as

1068
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 2: dead in my sin, just as separated from God as

1069
01:08:29,640 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 2: I was when I was a drunk, chasing women without

1070
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 2: a care in the world, and could care less about

1071
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 2: following Jesus because the only thing that had changed was

1072
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 2: the object of my worship. I went from worshiping alcohol

1073
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 2: and everything that that was a means to an end

1074
01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,960
Speaker 2: to get to Now I'm just worshiping at the altar

1075
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:57,840
Speaker 2: of sobriety. So I go to my meetings, I work

1076
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,639
Speaker 2: my steps, I call my sponsor, I sponsored my guys,

1077
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 2: I serve, I go to church on Sundays, I'm reading

1078
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 2: my Bible. Like, dude, how could the Lord not be

1079
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: so stoked with all of this fruit in my life?

1080
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:17,760
Speaker 2: Like my life looks so radically different? How could this

1081
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 2: not be proof of God's intervention in my life? And dude,

1082
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,439
Speaker 2: I was just as destined for hell if I would

1083
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:31,000
Speaker 2: have died that day as I was when I was

1084
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 2: an unapologetic enemy of God.

1085
01:09:34,320 --> 01:09:38,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's what I get really passionate about

1086
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: as well, in the sense what you said there is

1087
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: we can't just swap idols. No, And so when people

1088
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 1: ask me, Johnna, you antia inti twelve steps, you anti

1089
01:09:49,439 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: celebrate recovery. I think what I say is what I

1090
01:09:54,280 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 1: have seen, okay, is that there is is a proclivity

1091
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: to worship programs and steps with people who are the

1092
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 1: biggest fans of those programs.

1093
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:10,719
Speaker 3: Oh for sure.

1094
01:10:10,760 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: And that's I don't want that for you. Yeah, if

1095
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:15,960
Speaker 1: you're listening to this, I don't want that for you.

1096
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 1: If you're listening to this and you that doesn't mean

1097
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: Like one of my one of my close mentors, she

1098
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 1: is a woman who runs a CR but she runs

1099
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:31,719
Speaker 1: it in a way that I would say is gospel centered. Yeah, right,

1100
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:36,400
Speaker 1: I believe it is gospel centered, right. And and We've

1101
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 1: had these conversations, and in fact, I've had to uh

1102
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: unwind certain conversations that I've had. One of the most

1103
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 1: destructive conversations early on in my sobriety was with a

1104
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: regional director of a celebrate recovery who you know, I'd

1105
01:10:54,240 --> 01:10:56,080
Speaker 1: reached out to a bunch of different ones and and

1106
01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: felt like the Lord was like telling me, hey, reach out,

1107
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 1: offer to share your story. I reached out to I mean,

1108
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: I want to say, twenty crs in my area. Only

1109
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:09,479
Speaker 1: one of them invited me to speak, and the regional

1110
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:11,600
Speaker 1: director got on the phone with me and basically was like,

1111
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:16,840
Speaker 1: stop it, stop calling and emailing people. She goes, if

1112
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 1: you are not doing the program, you are not really

1113
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: in recovery. And I was like, what what are you

1114
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: talking about? Like what do you mean?

1115
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:26,080
Speaker 3: You know?

1116
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 1: It was so confusing, and it was like you've you've

1117
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: swapped iitles, like you're just you're still worshiping a pro

1118
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 1: Like you're not. You're not about what does it look

1119
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:42,320
Speaker 1: like to get to the root, What does it look

1120
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 1: like to excavate? What does it look like to let

1121
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: Jesus into all those areas and worship him exclusively? You know?

1122
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:54,800
Speaker 1: And and so that's why I think that's why I

1123
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:58,040
Speaker 1: think this is an important cover, this is an important conversation,

1124
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 1: is because what doesn't want what I don't want. If

1125
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 1: you want to go to a CR, great, if you

1126
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:07,280
Speaker 1: want to go to an AA right with the caveats

1127
01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: of bread has explained, which I think seemed very wise.

1128
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 1: Right again, I haven't gone to I haven't gone through AA,

1129
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 1: and so I defer to him. But everything that he

1130
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 1: has said, uh, makes a lot of sense to me.

1131
01:12:20,439 --> 01:12:22,600
Speaker 1: If you disagree, shoot me, shoot me a message, like

1132
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:25,400
Speaker 1: maybe we could have another episode where where where where

1133
01:12:25,439 --> 01:12:28,559
Speaker 1: we answer questions right, We answered things where you're like, hey,

1134
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 1: what about this, what about this? Like let's do it right.

1135
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:35,360
Speaker 1: But I think the point is is that is that

1136
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:40,320
Speaker 1: Christ as a Christian, this shouldn't be controversial bread, but

1137
01:12:40,320 --> 01:12:40,640
Speaker 1: it is.

1138
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:43,200
Speaker 3: It shouldn't and and I want to speak to that

1139
01:12:43,200 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 3: if I can. Yeah. So, the the.

1140
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 2: The clarity just backtracking real quick, as I realized I'm

1141
01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 2: just as dead in my sin in that moment, with

1142
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:57,839
Speaker 2: this cleaned up life, sober, going to church talking about Jesus,

1143
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 2: I'm just as separated from God as I had been

1144
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 2: in the past. The clarity that the Holy Spirit revealed

1145
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:08,800
Speaker 2: to me was I was equating my sobriety from alcohol

1146
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 2: with righteousness and essentially believing that I'm right with God,

1147
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:20,720
Speaker 2: not because of and only because of what Jesus has done,

1148
01:13:21,200 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 2: living a sinless life in my place, dying the death

1149
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 2: that I deserve on the cross, Like it wasn't me

1150
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 2: trusting in that, it was me essentially trusting in this

1151
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 2: new way of life, this sobriety, all these good things

1152
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:41,240
Speaker 2: I'm doing, and so like, that's why I say saved

1153
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:45,719
Speaker 2: from sobriety. Ultimately we're saved from sin. But our sin

1154
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:49,799
Speaker 2: is like playing out in all different kinds of ways,

1155
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:54,080
Speaker 2: all different forms of idolatry. And I had an idolatry

1156
01:13:54,120 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 2: of sobriety. I was worshiping sobriety while giving lip service

1157
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:03,520
Speaker 2: to Jesus. And like, dude, when you think about the enemy,

1158
01:14:03,760 --> 01:14:07,120
Speaker 2: he does not care how much we miss Jesus by

1159
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:11,160
Speaker 2: as long as we miss Jesus. Yeah, and so like

1160
01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:13,640
Speaker 2: think of the people. And this is where I say this,

1161
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,800
Speaker 2: Like this is with a broken heart. You've got all

1162
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 2: these people in twelve step programs who think they're right

1163
01:14:20,640 --> 01:14:24,759
Speaker 2: with God as they understand God. Some of these people

1164
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 2: explicitly want nothing to do with Jesus. Some of them

1165
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 2: are probably indifferent to Jesus. Some of them don't really

1166
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:37,400
Speaker 2: know about Jesus. But they all think they have a

1167
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 2: relationship with the God of their understanding.

1168
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 3: They pray to their God.

1169
01:14:42,160 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 2: They attribute the blessings in their life to their God.

1170
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 2: Like they're sober now, their marriage has recovered, business is

1171
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 2: going great, they're healthier than they've ever been. So like,

1172
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:57,080
Speaker 2: if I was to tell them, hey, if you actually

1173
01:14:57,120 --> 01:15:00,719
Speaker 2: haven't repented of your sin and put your and Jesus

1174
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 2: alone for salvation, you actually are not reconciled to God,

1175
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 2: and you actually don't have a relationship with God. Like

1176
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 2: whoever you think you're praying to you or whatever you

1177
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 2: think you're praying to, is actually not God. They would

1178
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:17,920
Speaker 2: think I'm insane now, and this is why. And again,

1179
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:20,479
Speaker 2: like I would have done, they would point to their life.

1180
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:25,080
Speaker 2: They would say, look at all the evidence of my

1181
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:29,679
Speaker 2: God's presence in my life. So again, the enemy does

1182
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 2: not care how much we miss Jesus. By as long

1183
01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,840
Speaker 2: as we miss Jesus. I don't think there's much more

1184
01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 2: that pleases the enemy than for people to spend decades

1185
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 2: of their life sober, living a without a doubt, better

1186
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:49,919
Speaker 2: life than they did when they were drinking and drugging,

1187
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:54,360
Speaker 2: thinking they're totally fine with God as they understand God,

1188
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 2: only to get the end of their life, and they

1189
01:15:57,680 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 2: spend all these decades sober, they helped all these other

1190
01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:03,919
Speaker 2: people get sober, and it was all in this general

1191
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 2: God that they essentially defined or came up with. And

1192
01:16:09,240 --> 01:16:14,960
Speaker 2: then I say this like tragically, not like in a

1193
01:16:15,000 --> 01:16:17,280
Speaker 2: way that's like, oh, this is what they get. I

1194
01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:19,880
Speaker 2: say this like with tears. Then they go to hell,

1195
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:25,479
Speaker 2: like that is exactly what the enemy wants, like, if

1196
01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,600
Speaker 2: the Bible is true, then people are either going to

1197
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:32,360
Speaker 2: spend eternity with God by grace, true faith in Jesus alone,

1198
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,960
Speaker 2: or they're going to spend eternity in hell. I believe

1199
01:16:36,040 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 2: that the Bible is true, and so when Jesus says,

1200
01:16:39,400 --> 01:16:41,479
Speaker 2: what is a prophet of man? If he gains the

1201
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:44,680
Speaker 2: whole world, be forfeits his soul. I want people to

1202
01:16:44,720 --> 01:16:47,880
Speaker 2: stay sober, for sure. I want people to get sober.

1203
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 2: I want your soul to be reconciled to God infinitely

1204
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:55,519
Speaker 2: more than I want you to be sober, because if

1205
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:59,240
Speaker 2: you get sober and you miss Jesus, you might enjoy

1206
01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 2: the next decade or several decades, but you are on

1207
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,040
Speaker 2: a path to destruction and you don't have to be.

1208
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 1: You know, there's one thing that I know that one

1209
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:13,519
Speaker 1: of your mentors says a lot who's become you know,

1210
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 1: a mentor in a way of mind, and that is

1211
01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 1: in all of this conversation. I don't think I know

1212
01:17:22,600 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 1: Brett's not saying this because I know him and I'm

1213
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:31,720
Speaker 1: not saying this. That doesn't mean that you know that

1214
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: the Church has done this like perfectly right? I think

1215
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:42,679
Speaker 1: sure part of the reason that AA that twelve step

1216
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 1: recovery has had to be there is because the church

1217
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 1: hasn't fulfilled its role, agreed. And And so when we

1218
01:17:51,680 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: talk about gospel centered recovery, which I want you to

1219
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 1: define that as kind of our last segment here, when

1220
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:04,760
Speaker 1: we talk about gospel centered recovery, it is it's as

1221
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 1: much calling the church. And when I say the church,

1222
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:10,280
Speaker 1: I'm especially talking about the local church and the local

1223
01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:15,240
Speaker 1: churches to invest in what it looks like to have

1224
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:21,360
Speaker 1: thriving gospel centered recovery ministries. So with that said, Brett,

1225
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:25,600
Speaker 1: how would you define what does it look like? What

1226
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:28,519
Speaker 1: is gospel centered recovery?

1227
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and even just the way that you articulated that,

1228
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:37,519
Speaker 2: I'm thinking like every single local church should be a

1229
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:42,800
Speaker 2: gospel centered recovery ministry. Like if there is healthy discipleship

1230
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:49,759
Speaker 2: and preaching and accountability and encouragement, then all it is

1231
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 2: is everyone as we struggle with sin until we either

1232
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 2: die or Jesus comes back, like you talk about in

1233
01:18:57,400 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 2: your book Messi Sanctification, all of us are going to

1234
01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:04,360
Speaker 2: struggle until we die or Jesus comes back. And so

1235
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 2: gospel centered recovery is learning how to apply the gospel

1236
01:19:09,320 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 2: specifically to every form of sin and suffering that we

1237
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:19,280
Speaker 2: struggle with. And we had talked earlier too in one

1238
01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:24,559
Speaker 2: of the I guess taglines, if you will, from Recovery

1239
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:30,320
Speaker 2: at Citizens Church in Plano, Texas, is like, sobriety is

1240
01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 2: a byproduct of the main goal, which is a heart

1241
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:39,759
Speaker 2: reconciled to God by grace through faith in Jesus' period,

1242
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:45,880
Speaker 2: and so gospel centered recovery, whether it's sobriety anger, I mean,

1243
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,360
Speaker 2: it's not just our sin, it's even our suffering. So

1244
01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 2: it's grief, physical illness, I mean any form of sin

1245
01:19:53,400 --> 01:19:59,720
Speaker 2: and suffering where the healing, the relief, the comfort is

1246
01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:05,559
Speaker 2: all always the overflow of being reconciled to God first

1247
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:11,559
Speaker 2: and foremost, and then enjoying life with Him, like enjoying God,

1248
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 2: living with God, living with the people of God. And

1249
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:19,320
Speaker 2: then the overflow, the byproduct of that is often getting

1250
01:20:19,360 --> 01:20:23,400
Speaker 2: the very thing that brought us into quote unquote recovery

1251
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:27,360
Speaker 2: in the first place. You had also said real quick

1252
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,960
Speaker 2: here like this this stuff about Christianity and is like controversial,

1253
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:35,639
Speaker 2: but it shouldn't be. And dude, I know why that is.

1254
01:20:36,120 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 2: So I say this, this this is not like condescension

1255
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:48,080
Speaker 2: at all. We have a biblical alliteracy like disaster in

1256
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:52,479
Speaker 2: the Western Church where people do not know the Word.

1257
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 2: And again I'm not saying this like in a talking

1258
01:20:55,240 --> 01:21:00,280
Speaker 2: down way. I'm saying like, we have a discipleship like

1259
01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:05,240
Speaker 2: disaster in the sense that people have not been taught

1260
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:08,559
Speaker 2: how to read and study and apply the Word of

1261
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:11,519
Speaker 2: God for themselves. Like I can't remember if it's Barna

1262
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 2: or Leganier, but one of them or both of them.

1263
01:21:14,840 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 2: They do these annual or biannual, massive surveys about basic

1264
01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:27,000
Speaker 2: Christian doctrine, like basic stuff about what Christians believe, and

1265
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 2: the results are horrifying, and so it is zero percent

1266
01:21:33,400 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 2: surprising if we don't And again I'm not saying that

1267
01:21:37,400 --> 01:21:39,479
Speaker 2: to be a Christian you've got to be able to

1268
01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,840
Speaker 2: pass a Christian doctrine test. That is not what I'm saying.

1269
01:21:43,400 --> 01:21:46,560
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, though, is it is zero percent surprising

1270
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 2: to me that Christians, who sadly are failing, if you will,

1271
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:58,640
Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, these basic like surveys

1272
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:02,400
Speaker 2: of what do Christians believe? Eve zero percent surprising that

1273
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 2: they're then in a room like AA and not understanding

1274
01:22:05,800 --> 01:22:09,880
Speaker 2: what the problem is so I say that to our fault,

1275
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 2: like those of us who, by the grace of God

1276
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 2: have been discipled well and are learning a lot. I

1277
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:20,080
Speaker 2: know you just completed seminary. I've been taking seminary classes.

1278
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:22,160
Speaker 2: I'm in a preaching course. I'm learning have to study

1279
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 2: the Bible from some of the best Bible teachers on

1280
01:22:25,080 --> 01:22:30,519
Speaker 2: the planet. Like it is our responsibility, not in a

1281
01:22:30,520 --> 01:22:32,800
Speaker 2: way that only God can shoulder, but as much as

1282
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:36,719
Speaker 2: we can to disciple and teach others what it actually

1283
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:40,120
Speaker 2: means to be a Christian and like, what do Christians believe?

1284
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:41,880
Speaker 3: What does the Word teach?

1285
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 2: And then that would take care of all of this

1286
01:22:45,040 --> 01:22:49,560
Speaker 2: downstream confusion, where well, what's the problem with a universalist

1287
01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:52,240
Speaker 2: program that encourages you to believe in whatever God you

1288
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 2: want to and the exclusivity of Jesus being the only

1289
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 2: way to the Father. It's almost like I don't even

1290
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:00,519
Speaker 2: know where to start. It's like you've got to go

1291
01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:04,200
Speaker 2: back up stream to just learn the basics of Christianity,

1292
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,080
Speaker 2: and then that will take care of all this other stuff.

1293
01:23:07,120 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 3: Really, the Holy Spirit will take care of all this

1294
01:23:09,400 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 3: other stuff.

1295
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:12,760
Speaker 1: The final thing I want to say is that I

1296
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,280
Speaker 1: think when we talk about gospel syner recovery, which I

1297
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:18,640
Speaker 1: think for me, you know, just just riffing off what

1298
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 1: Breadth said is is shooting for Jesus, getting sobriety thrown

1299
01:23:23,240 --> 01:23:27,120
Speaker 1: in that Jesus is the ultimate answer to the deepest

1300
01:23:27,479 --> 01:23:31,040
Speaker 1: issues that cause you to drink in the first place,

1301
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,200
Speaker 1: that cause you to drink like an idiot, to drug,

1302
01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 1: to porn to whatever. Right, is like, those are symptoms

1303
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:43,400
Speaker 1: of a root cause that only Jesus can heal. Right,

1304
01:23:43,479 --> 01:23:48,559
Speaker 1: that is the result of the brokenness, sin and suffering

1305
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 1: that is in the world. Right, But that said is

1306
01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:56,479
Speaker 1: like is like I remember I was speaking down in

1307
01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:07,479
Speaker 1: Georgia and there was a place where like the there

1308
01:24:07,479 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 1: were some people that were afraid that what I was

1309
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 1: going to say was, well, all you need is Jesus

1310
01:24:14,840 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 1: and you don't need the you don't need anything else, right,

1311
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:22,240
Speaker 1: And I think on one hand, you might like there

1312
01:24:22,320 --> 01:24:24,240
Speaker 1: might people be like, well, isn't that what you're saying?

1313
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 1: Are you saying you like Jesus? And I would say,

1314
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:30,639
Speaker 1: it's like there's nuance there, right, Like, yes, I'm saying

1315
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:33,040
Speaker 1: that Jesus is the ultimate answer, but that's not to

1316
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:36,360
Speaker 1: the exclusivity and Brett, you can chime in, but that's

1317
01:24:36,400 --> 01:24:39,360
Speaker 1: not to the exclusivity of Like what I'm not saying

1318
01:24:40,120 --> 01:24:44,280
Speaker 1: is that there's no room for detox facilities, that's no

1319
01:24:44,360 --> 01:24:47,760
Speaker 1: room for sober living houses, that there's no room for

1320
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:53,519
Speaker 1: treatment centers, that there's no room Like that's not it's not. See,

1321
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:56,720
Speaker 1: I grew up in a faith healing background that when

1322
01:24:56,720 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 1: you said all you need is Jesus, it was like,

1323
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, don't take medication, don't don't say that you

1324
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:05,080
Speaker 1: have a cold, because that's confessing you know, bad things

1325
01:25:05,120 --> 01:25:08,360
Speaker 1: over you, and and and and that's not what we're

1326
01:25:08,400 --> 01:25:12,320
Speaker 1: saying here, right, Like it's there's room for that stuff,

1327
01:25:12,360 --> 01:25:13,960
Speaker 1: but it's not the ultimate goal.

1328
01:25:14,680 --> 01:25:18,240
Speaker 2: Right Yeah, yeah, there's there's not only room, but those

1329
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:22,000
Speaker 2: those are all I would say, like a detox facility

1330
01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 2: where it's purely medical, we're not talking about someone teaching

1331
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:30,679
Speaker 2: something that's God's common grace now, like a secular treatment center,

1332
01:25:31,160 --> 01:25:35,960
Speaker 2: like if if they're pushing the twelve step agenda, like

1333
01:25:36,720 --> 01:25:40,240
Speaker 2: then you're getting into something different. But like if I've

1334
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:42,680
Speaker 2: got someone and they've got to go to rehab and

1335
01:25:42,760 --> 01:25:46,360
Speaker 2: their only option is this one particular rehab, and and

1336
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:48,840
Speaker 2: I know that they're pushing AA and they're of course,

1337
01:25:48,880 --> 01:25:50,800
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say go to the rehab, like if they

1338
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:55,200
Speaker 2: need to detox and just get like separation from the

1339
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:58,360
Speaker 2: people they're around, the drugs or alcohol they're around, of

1340
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:01,040
Speaker 2: course I'm gonna say go there. What would be even

1341
01:26:01,080 --> 01:26:03,760
Speaker 2: more amazing, and I know that you're aware of our

1342
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 2: dreams as it relates to this is imagined facilities where

1343
01:26:08,600 --> 01:26:12,959
Speaker 2: just like we talk about gospel centered recovery, imagine gospel

1344
01:26:13,000 --> 01:26:17,200
Speaker 2: centered treatment centers where they've got all the medical stuff

1345
01:26:17,200 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 2: for detox and medication for people who do have mental

1346
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 2: health struggles, where medication is again it's not ultimate, but

1347
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:30,240
Speaker 2: it is needed, even it's helpful, but it's ultimately supplemental.

1348
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:34,559
Speaker 2: But then where the underlying message that's being taught in

1349
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:41,960
Speaker 2: therapy and group counseling sessions is not something antithetical to Christianity,

1350
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:44,639
Speaker 2: but actually the Gospel and the story of the Bible.

1351
01:26:45,080 --> 01:26:50,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, brat Man, this has been awesome. I

1352
01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:53,479
Speaker 1: think it's an important episode. I think it's one that

1353
01:26:53,560 --> 01:27:00,200
Speaker 1: I hope everyone listens to with open ears, that you know,

1354
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:04,880
Speaker 1: it is one that you hear the heart behind what

1355
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:08,080
Speaker 1: we're saying and what we want for you, which is

1356
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:13,400
Speaker 1: ultimately we want we want Jesus for you, we want eternity,

1357
01:27:13,479 --> 01:27:16,679
Speaker 1: We want the flourishing that he offers, the best life

1358
01:27:16,680 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: that he offers, not the easiest. Right that doesn't mean

1359
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:22,800
Speaker 1: a life devoid of hardships, or devoid of mental health

1360
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:26,920
Speaker 1: issues or or or of you know, health, wealth and wisdom.

1361
01:27:27,000 --> 01:27:33,400
Speaker 1: Right like it is, however, the life that that Roman's

1362
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:36,160
Speaker 1: eight twenty eight talks about, right that authors where all

1363
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 1: things work together for the good of those who love

1364
01:27:37,800 --> 01:27:39,599
Speaker 1: him and are called them called according to his purpose.

1365
01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 1: So Brett, thank you, thank you, Thank you so much.

1366
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:46,360
Speaker 1: And if people, you know, if you have questions, if

1367
01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:48,800
Speaker 1: you have thoughts, like, send them in. Like I said,

1368
01:27:48,920 --> 01:27:50,960
Speaker 1: we would love to do another episode. I'd love to

1369
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 1: have Brett back on again to answer your questions, your

1370
01:27:54,560 --> 01:27:59,000
Speaker 1: your angry emails, your loving emails. Right, yeah, you know,

1371
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 1: I think I think it's an important conversation. So Brett,

1372
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us for it. I

1373
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:10,000
Speaker 1: really think what Brett said about like the devil doesn't

1374
01:28:10,040 --> 01:28:14,320
Speaker 1: care how much we miss by right, And that was

1375
01:28:14,360 --> 01:28:17,760
Speaker 1: really true in my life, right, Like I I was

1376
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:22,800
Speaker 1: doing things for the Lord, and I was I was

1377
01:28:22,880 --> 01:28:27,080
Speaker 1: listening to the Holy Spirit in plenty of aspects, right,

1378
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 1: Like I don't talk about this a lot, but like

1379
01:28:30,240 --> 01:28:34,000
Speaker 1: I donated a kidney to a stranger and really felt

1380
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:36,880
Speaker 1: like the Lord, you know, laid it on my work

1381
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 1: to do right. And yet I had this this thing

1382
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:48,160
Speaker 1: that I just kept turning to and and I had

1383
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:50,439
Speaker 1: as an idol in my life. And so I think

1384
01:28:50,520 --> 01:28:54,360
Speaker 1: what I think the Devil's you know, some of his

1385
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:58,360
Speaker 1: greatest work, if you will, is done when he can

1386
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:03,280
Speaker 1: take a good thing and just twist it enough to

1387
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:06,559
Speaker 1: turn it into an idol. And so when Brett talks

1388
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:10,320
Speaker 1: about being saved from sobriety, it's like, man, I just

1389
01:29:10,439 --> 01:29:15,200
Speaker 1: see so many people make an idol out of sobriety,

1390
01:29:15,280 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 1: and I just think, oh, you're You're like you have

1391
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:23,320
Speaker 1: just enough to convince yourself that you have everything, and

1392
01:29:23,400 --> 01:29:28,599
Speaker 1: yet you don't and the main thing you're still missing.

1393
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:32,040
Speaker 1: I have friends, I have Christian friends who do AA

1394
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,720
Speaker 1: and they approach it from a gospel lens, and I'm

1395
01:29:35,760 --> 01:29:39,000
Speaker 1: excited that they can do that right, and in some

1396
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:41,639
Speaker 1: ways they are they have a mission field in front

1397
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 1: of them, right. Like I live down in the South

1398
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:47,519
Speaker 1: and we say all the time, the churches down here

1399
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:51,400
Speaker 1: have a really hard time because here in the Bible Belt,

1400
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:55,200
Speaker 1: everyone says they're a Christian, everyone thinks they're a Christian, right,

1401
01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:59,720
Speaker 1: and yet so many people are just culturally Christians. And

1402
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:03,400
Speaker 1: I think it's the same thing in that AA culture

1403
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:08,639
Speaker 1: is like, hey, I'm good, I'm sober, everything's great, and

1404
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:11,599
Speaker 1: yet they're missing the main thing. And so if you're

1405
01:30:11,600 --> 01:30:15,519
Speaker 1: a Christian that does AA, I would say use it

1406
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:19,960
Speaker 1: as a mission field to draw people to Jesus. And

1407
01:30:20,600 --> 01:30:25,679
Speaker 1: I think the harvest is plenty there. Shoot me your

1408
01:30:25,800 --> 01:30:29,080
Speaker 1: thoughts on what you think. I would love to hear them.

1409
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:32,320
Speaker 1: I talked in the intro about Veritas Recovery. If you

1410
01:30:32,360 --> 01:30:35,519
Speaker 1: appreciate this podcast, if you appreciate what we're saying here,

1411
01:30:35,600 --> 01:30:38,600
Speaker 1: if you are on board with aiming for Jesus and

1412
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:41,720
Speaker 1: getting sobriety thrown in, you can make a tax deductible

1413
01:30:41,800 --> 01:30:46,439
Speaker 1: donation at Veritasrecovery dot org to keep this going. We

1414
01:30:46,479 --> 01:30:50,440
Speaker 1: are five oh one c three recognized by the IRS,

1415
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:55,400
Speaker 1: and I would really appreciate it five ten thirty sixty

1416
01:30:55,439 --> 01:30:59,040
Speaker 1: one hundred whatever. I would really I would really covet

1417
01:30:59,080 --> 01:31:02,160
Speaker 1: that so that we can keep this going. Love you all,

1418
01:31:02,240 --> 01:31:03,840
Speaker 1: We'll see you back here next week.