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Speaker 1: Gavin Orland, you recently dropped a video on how apologetics

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Speaker 1: is changing.

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Speaker 2: Let's just step back a bit and look at the

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Speaker 2: landscape that is reshaping Christian apologetics right now.

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Speaker 1: And I love it because I think about that all

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Speaker 1: the time. You raised five trends that I thought were

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Speaker 1: very insightful. We're going to walk through them one by one.

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Speaker 2: There's more of a sense of people coming to conclusions

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Speaker 2: based upon vibes, based upon identity. Now, unfortunately, I think

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Speaker 2: we have to say there's a decrease of critical thinking.

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Speaker 2: The prediction is next year will be the first year

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Speaker 2: in human history that more human beings in our culture

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Speaker 2: than read a book. And that alarmed me.

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Speaker 3: I've never heard that.

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Speaker 1: First off, when did you say you started doing apologetics, roughly?

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Speaker 2: I think probably around 2019, maybe. Oh, okay. So well

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Speaker 2: into my adult years and after my formal education, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I've always been interested in apologetics. So back when I

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Speaker 2: was in college and early 20s, I would watch debates

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Speaker 2: between William Lane Craig and Christopher Hitchens. Of course. The

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Speaker 2: one here. It was here. That's right. I remember that

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Speaker 2: one vividly and others. I've always had a curiosity. And

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Speaker 2: then somewhere along the way, I just got fascinated in

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Speaker 2: how can you build a case that is human, that

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Speaker 2: is compassionate, That tells a story. It leans into narrative

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Speaker 2: and then appeals to beauty. So I started researching that.

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Speaker 2: It began with academic interests. And then my heart has

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Speaker 2: just been drawn to try to help people. And I

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Speaker 2: just see a lot of questions right now. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: really the last seven years or so, I've gotten more

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Speaker 2: and more increasingly pulled into it.

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Speaker 1: Well, by here at Biola and those who are watching

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Speaker 1: this are going, this doesn't look like your studio. A

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Speaker 1: skunk got into our studio last night. So we threw

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Speaker 1: this together in my office at the last minute. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for flexing with me. But my journey started here. Probably,

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Speaker 1: even though, I mean, growing up with an apologist father,

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Speaker 1: I've been kind of doing it on some level my

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Speaker 1: whole life. But when I decided I loved this was 1998,

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Speaker 1: took a class with J.P. Moreland. And it's the first time,

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Speaker 1: my dad does historical apologetics. First time I learned philosophical apologetics.

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Speaker 1: And Gavin, I was hooked. So I kind of started

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Speaker 1: at that point. So almost like 28 years in different capacities,

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Speaker 1: I've been doing apologetics. In the time you've done this,

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Speaker 1: or at least been interested in it, how significant would

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Speaker 1: you describe the shift of how we practice apologetics, the issues,

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Speaker 1: and say that five or 10 year window?

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Speaker 2: Okay. So, and I'm really curious what you'll think about

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Speaker 2: this too, but I don't see it as a massive

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Speaker 2: pendulum swing, like a 10 out of 10. I see

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Speaker 2: it as a little bit more of a shift of emphasis.

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Speaker 2: And I think sometimes people put so much focus on

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Speaker 2: methodology and what's the latest trend, what's the latest argument,

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Speaker 2: and there are these changes that happen. But underneath that,

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Speaker 2: some of these arguments are kind of time-tested and they

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Speaker 2: tend to endure. So, for example, one of the big

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Speaker 2: things I'm interested in is truth, goodness, and beauty.

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Speaker 1: Amen.

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Speaker 2: How does apologetics appeal to all three? And the tilt

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Speaker 2: in my heart and my interest, and I think with

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Speaker 2: not just me, It's a little more towards the goodness

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Speaker 2: and beauty questions right now. But the truth questions still matter.

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Speaker 2: And that's not an absolute shift. It's just maybe a

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Speaker 2: little bit more of one of emphasis. So I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I'd put it more like a 5 out of 10

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Speaker 2: or a 4 out of 10 or something like that. Okay.

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Speaker 1: So if I took a 10 scale, I'd probably say

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Speaker 1: more 6 or 7 for me.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean, my father, I've got a.

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Speaker 1: Little different perspective talking to my dad who's 87 when

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Speaker 1: he started seeing as a kid starting the early 2000s.

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Speaker 1: So if I look at it through that span, I

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Speaker 1: never would have guessed that the issues that we'd be

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Speaker 1: talking about today, we're talking about the way we're talking

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Speaker 1: about it, the manner in which apologetics is done. I

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Speaker 1: think it's pretty radical. We'll get into some of that,

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Speaker 1: but that's totally fair. So you have this video that

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Speaker 1: we're going to link to below. I want people to

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Speaker 1: watch it where you talk about kind of five trends

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Speaker 1: that you've seen. And let's walk through these and then

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Speaker 1: just talk about what it would mean for apologetics.

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Speaker 3: And they're all creatively titled. The first one is.

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Speaker 1: Called the post-secular jungle. Tell us what you mean by

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Speaker 1: that and what you see.

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Speaker 2: So this is especially thinking of maybe like the last

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Speaker 2: 10 years. So it probably could apply going back earlier too.

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Speaker 2: But if I go back in my mind to like 2015, 2010,

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Speaker 2: a little further, there was more of a sense of

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Speaker 2: the new atheist movement was trendy. In some circles, it

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Speaker 2: was cool and it was pushing forward. It had a

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Speaker 2: little bit of momentum. And even like things adjacent to

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Speaker 2: new atheism proper. So just a secular mentality felt like

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Speaker 2: a pretty common and increasing perspective that you feel out there.

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Speaker 2: And my sense is, and I think the sociology bears

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Speaker 2: this out to some extent. I'm always trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out how much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree.

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Speaker 2: But since around 2020, it just feels different. It feels like...

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Speaker 2: that movement has lost momentum. And it feels like many,

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Speaker 2: many people are just open to ask questions. Now, the

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Speaker 2: reason I say jungle is I don't think it's necessarily

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Speaker 2: a kind of coherent response toward Christianity. It seems like

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Speaker 2: it's much more just smorgasbord, lots of different things out there,

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Speaker 2: and even some pretty dark forms of spirituality, which is alarming.

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Speaker 2: So I think I don't necessarily feel like apologetics is

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Speaker 2: less challenging now. I just think it's a different landscape,

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Speaker 2: almost with more issues on the table.

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Speaker 1: The way you frame that, I would agree 100%. And

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Speaker 1: I think there's enough voices saying this. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: Ross Douthat, who recently left New York Times, Catholic, brilliant thinker,

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Speaker 1: and wrote a book called, I think, I believe, or

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Speaker 1: why I believe recently, an apologetic book, came out maybe 2024.

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Speaker 1: And he said when he started maybe 15 years ago

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Speaker 1: at the New York Times, there was a strong kind

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Speaker 1: of staunch secular belief voice from his experience, little interest

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Speaker 1: in spiritual things. And over the time he was there

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Speaker 1: as a calmness and opinion writer, he said there was

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Speaker 1: kind of an openness and an interest in largely that

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Speaker 1: secular audience, which mirrors my own experience and mirrors yours. Now,

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Speaker 1: the other thing he says, which a lot of other

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Speaker 1: writers have weighed into as well, is that it's not

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Speaker 1: like it's a shift back towards the Bible or Christianity.

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Speaker 1: It's like now we have psychedelics and this fascination in

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Speaker 1: UFOs and new age. Those things were there, but just

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Speaker 1: because secularism is being challenged, I think, intellectually and experientially

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean people are turning back towards Christianity. I think

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Speaker 1: jungle is the right word that there's like a now

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Speaker 1: an openness in a way there wasn't in the past,

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Speaker 1: but everybody's weighing into that also differently. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And if there's one thing that I could say that

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Speaker 2: just gives me hope, Because with each of these, it's

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Speaker 2: really easy for Christians to be afraid. And I completely

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Speaker 2: understand that. But at the same time, I always want

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Speaker 2: us to sort of lean forward toward the world with

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Speaker 2: hope and compassion.

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Speaker 3: Amen.

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Speaker 2: And not just see the problems and retreat. And so

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Speaker 2: if there's one opportunity here, it is people are looking

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Speaker 2: for answers. People are asking deep questions. A lot of people,

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Speaker 2: there's an old Keith Green song from eons ago.

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Speaker 1: You remember?

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Speaker 2: Love it.

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Speaker 3: No, I love Keith Green. Keep going.

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Speaker 2: People need the Lord. There's this little phrase. I just

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Speaker 2: think of this because I used it as an illustration

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Speaker 2: in my chapel message yesterday. He says, at the end

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Speaker 2: of broken dreams, Jesus is the open door. And it

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Speaker 2: was just making me think and giving me compassion for

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Speaker 2: people in our culture, a lot of whom are at

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Speaker 2: the end of broken dreams. They've pursued something and it

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Speaker 2: hasn't really worked out. And so they're kind of looking

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Speaker 2: around saying, What is there ultimately that gives hope and

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Speaker 2: meaning to my life? And they may be turning in

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Speaker 2: all different kinds of directions. The good news is, how

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Speaker 2: is there an open door for the gospel with that?

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Speaker 2: And of course, we want to direct people to Jesus,

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Speaker 2: who's the answer to all of that.

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Speaker 3: Amen to that. And I appreciate that you bring it

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Speaker 3: back to hope.

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Speaker 1: And I think about, like, my father's told me when

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Speaker 1: he started doing apologetics, he's like, literally nobody was doing it.

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Speaker 3: There's Francis Schaeffer.

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Speaker 2: There's C.S. Lewis.

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Speaker 1: There's nobody speaking on college campuses. They hadn't written books

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Speaker 1: like More Than a Carpenter. We're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: your book, Why Christianity Makes Sense, which is awesome. But

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Speaker 1: the idea of a small apologetic book, like More Than

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Speaker 1: a Carpenter was the first. Those kind of things didn't exist.

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Speaker 1: And so if we have that perspective, like there's so

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Speaker 1: many people doing good apologetics on YouTube and on books

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Speaker 1: and in the church. That alone should give us some encouragement. But,

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Speaker 1: I mean, he also built it in me. He would

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Speaker 1: always say, he's like, son, I'm ready to attack hell

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Speaker 1: with a squirt gun. It's like we don't have an

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Speaker 1: option to despair.

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Speaker 3: We can't.

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Speaker 1: We have to be positive in the way that you

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Speaker 1: framed it. Now, I'm curious in your life and your channel,

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Speaker 1: your book, Why Christianity Makes Sense, feels like a timeless

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Speaker 1: apologetic to me.

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Speaker 3: And here's what I mean by this.

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Speaker 1: I break up apologetics into timeless issues, questions people have

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Speaker 1: always asked and always will ask. Is there a life

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Speaker 1: after death? Do we have a soul? Does God exist?

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Speaker 1: Is there right and wrong?

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Speaker 3: Is there meaning?

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Speaker 1: But then there's timely questions brought on by our cultural moment,

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Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, maybe rampant pornography raises new questions. Things like

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Speaker 1: Israel now is a question that people weren't asking in

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Speaker 1: the past. How do you balance, given that we're not

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Speaker 1: only in this secular jungle, there's timely issues we want

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Speaker 1: to address, but timeless ones. How do you balance that

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Speaker 1: in your own ministry before we get to the second trend?

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Speaker 2: My best effort is use the timely unto the timeless.

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Speaker 2: So if a presenting issue comes up, maybe AI, for example.

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Speaker 2: Everybody's talking about AI right now, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: us are alarmed at what the impact is. right? How

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Speaker 2: can that be a springboard into deeper questions? Now, the

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Speaker 2: danger there is I could trivialize the particular timely question,

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Speaker 2: which I don't want to do that. I want to

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Speaker 2: give that its full due. But I think there are

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Speaker 2: ways to springboard to bigger issues that are sometimes behind

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Speaker 2: or underneath the timely issue. You know, like behind AI

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Speaker 2: is a question of, well, what is consciousness? And then ultimately,

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Speaker 2: what's a human being? What does it mean to be human?

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Speaker 2: And so I like to try to springboard to those

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Speaker 2: deeper questions. And you're right, the book, Why Christianity Makes Sense,

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Speaker 2: which came out one week ago from today, as we're

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Speaker 2: recording this, is in the timeless category. I tried to

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Speaker 2: distill everything that I've done in apologetics and put it

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Speaker 2: into one book and kind of pour my heart into it.

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Speaker 3: I noticed it's shorter, by the way, than the last version.

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Speaker 1: When I helped update More Than a Carpenter, I was like,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make this even shorter and tighter. Sounds

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Speaker 1: like you had the same idea there.

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Speaker 3: We will get to that.

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Speaker 1: But I think what I found is that in apologetics,

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Speaker 1: like during the New Atheists, it was like, does God exist?

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Speaker 3: Is the Bible true?

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Speaker 2: Is God good?

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Speaker 1: Now it's like, oh, no, you got to be ready

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Speaker 1: to defend against Islam. Oh, you got to be ready

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Speaker 1: to defend and think about like psychedelics. You got to

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Speaker 1: have a biblical view of Israel. It's almost like there's

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Speaker 1: so many more issues than in the past that And

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Speaker 1: so we have to be that much more equipped to

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Speaker 1: address them. Okay, let's keep going. Your second one, I thought,

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Speaker 1: great title is Fragmented Echo Chambers.

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Speaker 3: Tell us what you mean by that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so imagery, I'll start with some imagery here. 10

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Speaker 2: years ago, and this is a little anecdotal. So to me,

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Speaker 2: it felt like there is a cultural divide and it's

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Speaker 2: almost like you're standing at the beach and waves are

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Speaker 2: coming in closer and closer. You're feeling this cultural pressure

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Speaker 2: against you. And the cultural pressure is, is discernible. You

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Speaker 2: can kind of see the contours of this worldview. Now

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Speaker 2: it feels like you're walking through a convention center, just

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Speaker 2: like you said. There's so many different issues that come up.

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Speaker 2: And on Monday, I might be sharing the gospel. The

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Speaker 2: conversation goes one way. On Tuesday, I'm sharing the gospel.

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Speaker 2: It goes a completely different way. On Wednesday, different than that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know whether the objections are going to be

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Speaker 2: right-coded or left-coded in advance. You never know. They're all

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Speaker 2: over the map.

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Speaker 3: Right-coded, left-coded, you mean like liberal, conservative?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Where they're coming from?

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Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, kind of what are the sensitivities and impulses

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Speaker 2: behind some of the objections? Those can come from the

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Speaker 2: right or the left. And you never know what you're

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Speaker 2: going to get. And so I just think it's a

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Speaker 2: more diverse world. And of course, social media and the

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Speaker 2: algorithms are a big factor here because we're just following

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Speaker 2: our feed. And some people really are down the rabbit trail,

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Speaker 2: getting influenced toward a particular perspective. There's just a loss

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Speaker 2: of cohesive, singular American culture, it feels like. And we're

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Speaker 2: just all in our own little box. And of course,

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Speaker 2: that's not totally true, but it feels more true now

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Speaker 2: than 10 years ago. I don't know if you sense

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Speaker 2: that or not. Maybe I'm spending too much time on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: No, I spend time on YouTube, travel, talk with people.

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Speaker 1: I definitely, I sense that within the church and I

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Speaker 1: sense that outside of the church. So I think in

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Speaker 1: some ways the church is a microcosm of that. So

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Speaker 1: the lack of a larger American identity, things that we

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Speaker 1: could agree on, it feels kind of the same in

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Speaker 1: the church. Like five or 10 years ago, people, I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: we can lock arms with, for the sake of the gospel.

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Speaker 1: Now it's harder to lock arms with people because there's

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Speaker 1: so many more issues that either do or people think

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Speaker 1: should divide us that didn't in the past.

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Speaker 3: We're going to get to that a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit when you talk about, I think one of

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Speaker 1: them we're going to get to fourth is like inter-Christian

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Speaker 1: trench warfare. So kind of this trend that you see

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Speaker 1: the way you described fragmented echo chambers in the larger culture,

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Speaker 1: we see that within the church as well. So I

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Speaker 1: guess my thoughts would be, How does that shape the

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Speaker 1: way we do apologetics? And I would think kind of

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Speaker 1: in the past, it was like if somebody asked this,

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Speaker 1: say that. And you could almost like script it. It's

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Speaker 1: impossible to script anything anymore. So it's almost more important

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Speaker 1: that I learn skills of listening, asking good questions, relating

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Speaker 1: to somebody like those skills are more important if the

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Speaker 1: way you're describing it is true.

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Speaker 3: Would you agree with that?

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Speaker 1: And what else would you think would be important in

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Speaker 1: this fragmented echo chamber world we live in?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely agree. I always think of Francis Schaeffer's statement

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Speaker 2: that if you have an hour to share the gospel,

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Speaker 2: he would say he would take 50 minutes to listen

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Speaker 2: and ask questions of the person in the last 10

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Speaker 2: minutes to then respond to those questions, which is a

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Speaker 2: very human way of interacting with someone. And I do think,

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Speaker 2: I think we could go too far with that, but

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Speaker 2: you think of Christ himself. Every conversation was different. And

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Speaker 2: he's responding to the particular person. So I think there's

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Speaker 2: wisdom in that. But one thing that I find helpful

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Speaker 2: in this, you know, because you can think, well, I

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Speaker 2: need to be an expert on everything now. I need

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Speaker 2: to be an expert on Islam. I need to know

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Speaker 2: what to say about AI down the line. I don't

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Speaker 2: think I would hate for someone to become paralyzed in fear,

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Speaker 2: thinking I can't be an apologist unless I'm sort of

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Speaker 2: omnicompetent on all these different issues. A lot of times

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Speaker 2: in conversations, just the simple instinct of bringing it back

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Speaker 2: to Jesus himself, I think is really helpful. So whatever

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Speaker 2: conversation you're in, if you're talking to someone about Islam,

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Speaker 2: or if you're talking to someone about atheism, or if

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Speaker 2: you're talking to someone about some particular cultural event, who

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Speaker 2: Jesus is, is always relevant to that. And so I

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Speaker 2: love to go, you know, in my book, I've got

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Speaker 2: a Lord liar lunatic argument that I try to bring

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Speaker 2: out from C.S.

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Speaker 3: Lewis.

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Speaker 2: Now, whatever you think about that argument, it's definitely applicable

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Speaker 2: to almost any kind of conversation. 100%. Because who Jesus

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Speaker 2: was matters wherever you're coming from. And so in the

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Speaker 2: echo chamber dynamics, I find I'm just trying to make

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Speaker 2: a beeline to Jesus in every conversation and almost treating

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Speaker 2: Jesus as the starting point sometimes more than the destination.

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Speaker 3: I love that.

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Speaker 1: Recently, I had a tour of the huge Hollywood Church

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Speaker 1: of Scientology. Five-hour tour. We made a documentary video of it.

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Speaker 1: I sat down for two hours with two Scientologists. And

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Speaker 1: one of them, at the end, I gave him more

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Speaker 1: than a carpenter, and he read it. And then we Zoomed,

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Speaker 1: and we talked about it. And I was like, just

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Speaker 1: tell me what you think. And he goes, that chapter, Lord, Liar, Lunatic,

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Speaker 1: was interesting. Because I don't think he was a liar.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he was a lunatic. I don't think

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Speaker 1: he was the Lord.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, tell me where you landed at.

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Speaker 1: It was just an interesting dynamic of, like, it still resonated.

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Speaker 2: And, of course, C.S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis didn't invent that. That goes back way before Lewis.

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Speaker 1: So you're right, bringing it to the person of Jesus.

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Speaker 1: But your first point you said is about the importance

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Speaker 1: of listening well. I would add to that, and I agree,

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Speaker 1: maybe it doesn't have to be 50 minutes, but there's

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Speaker 1: a certain just healing that takes place for people that

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Speaker 1: are broken and anxious and angry and divided today. Listening just,

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Speaker 1: you know this because you listen better than anyone on

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Speaker 1: YouTube that I know, just lowers the temperature, humanizes people,

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Speaker 1: leans in towards understanding. But in the Gospels and Acts,

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Speaker 1: we have Jesus asking 340 questions. And he probably answered,

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Speaker 1: depending on how you gauge it, between like maybe three

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Speaker 1: and eight. Questions, questions, questions. One of my top advice

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Speaker 1: for young apologists is A, learn how to think. So

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Speaker 1: in this world of fragmented echo chambers, I need certain

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Speaker 1: basic logical principles to recognize good thinking from poor thinking.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I recently have interviewed both Frank Turek and

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Speaker 1: William Lane Craig, and they both said that's their advice

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Speaker 1: for younger apologists. So we've got to learn how to think,

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Speaker 1: but also just how to ask good questions and listen well.

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Speaker 1: If you know those things, you can kind of navigate

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Speaker 1: almost any conversation. And you're right. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: give people the impression that they need to know. everything

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Speaker 1: to feel competent. I mean, there's more issues than not

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Speaker 1: that I'm out of my depth. That's half the reason

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Speaker 1: I interview people is I want to learn about Islam.

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Speaker 3: I want to learn about these different things.

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Speaker 2: So it's okay.

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Speaker 1: I think you gain credibility by saying, you know what?

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Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that. I'll look at,

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Speaker 1: and I'll get back to you. Hey, quick pause. I

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Speaker 1: want to tell you about a Bible study tool that

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Speaker 1: I've used for 25 years. It is one of only

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Speaker 1: two sponsors I have on this channel, along with Talbot

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Speaker 1: School Theology. Why? Because I deeply believe in it, and

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Speaker 1: I've deeply benefited from it, and I want you to

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Speaker 1: consider using it. It's called Logos, and the tools it

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Speaker 1: offers at your fingertips will blow you away.

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Speaker 3: I use it preparing for interviews.

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Speaker 1: I use it in my personal Bible study in the morning,

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Speaker 1: and I even used it when I was writing my dissertation.

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Speaker 1: That means it's a tool that can be used by

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Speaker 1: scholars who want to go deep and lay people who

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Speaker 1: just want to get into the scriptures for themselves. If

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Speaker 1: you want to learn how to study the Bible for

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Speaker 1: yourself and just own and know the scriptures, you will

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Speaker 1: not find a better tool than Logos. I'd love for

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Speaker 1: you to consider trying it out. Start a free 60-day trial,

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Speaker 1: which you can find at logos.com slash McDowell.

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Speaker 3: Link is in the description. Now back to the show.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's keep going. Third one is called vibes-based epistemology.

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Speaker 3: Tell me about that.

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Speaker 2: I think I got that phrase from Trent Horn. I

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Speaker 2: like it. It communicates. The word vibes, that word seems

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Speaker 2: like it's more in common right now or more in use.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so epistemology has to do with how we

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Speaker 2: know things. And it does seem like there's more of

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Speaker 2: a sense of people coming to conclusions based upon vibes,

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Speaker 2: based upon identities, based upon... just what is felt to

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Speaker 2: be authentic, what is felt to be beautiful. Now, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: I think we have to say there's a decrease of

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Speaker 2: critical thinking. And I worry about how the internet is

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Speaker 2: feeling that at times. And then I'm worried about where

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Speaker 2: that's going to go with the use of AI. It

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Speaker 2: seems like there's just less writing and reading. And I'm

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Speaker 2: worried about people outsourcing their critical thinking to AI. That's, again,

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Speaker 2: it's the kind of thing, it's like, it's a matter

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Speaker 2: of emphasis. It's not like nobody's reading books anymore and

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Speaker 2: no one's doing critical thinking. But just as a tilt

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Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, I think I heard this

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Speaker 2: statistic in a talk recently about AI. that the predict

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Speaker 2: the prediction is next year will be the first year

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Speaker 2: in human history that more human beings in our culture

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Speaker 2: gamble than read a book and that alarmed me i've

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Speaker 2: never heard that because gambling is skyrocketing right now sports.

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Speaker 1: Gambling polymarket all that stuff has just taken off yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that's a huge concern in its own right but

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Speaker 2: then less people are reading books now there are still

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Speaker 2: people reading books i mean we could overstate that but

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Speaker 2: it's just especially among young people it's there is a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a tapering off there so I think

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Speaker 2: the concern there is we are losing critical thinking skills

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Speaker 2: as a culture, but not totally. And I think there

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Speaker 2: is space even there to ask, okay, what is appealing

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Speaker 2: to people right now? And how can the gospel speak

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Speaker 2: to the human heart right now? For example, beauty. Beauty

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Speaker 2: right now does register with people, I've found. And I

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Speaker 2: think that we can demonstrate how the gospel is beautiful.

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Speaker 2: I was just giving a talk here at Viola this

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Speaker 2: morning on the resurrection of Christ. The resurrection of Christ

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Speaker 2: is a really thrilling, dramatic story. And what it means

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Speaker 2: is this particular kind of hope that we have. I

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Speaker 2: love helping people think about that. There's a particular kind

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Speaker 2: of happiness that comes as we think about Jesus rising

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Speaker 2: from the dead. I love to help people think about that.

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Speaker 2: So there are some possible inroads amidst this, but I

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Speaker 2: do think we have every reason to be alarmed at

433
00:21:58,550 --> 00:22:04,369
Speaker 2: the less rational discourse and disagreement that is common, not fully,

434
00:22:04,450 --> 00:22:06,310
Speaker 2: but I would say more now than 10 years ago.

435
00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:08,820
Speaker 1: I think in some ways human beings have always been

436
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:15,530
Speaker 1: persuaded more by emotions and relationships and stories than rational facts.

437
00:22:16,109 --> 00:22:19,530
Speaker 1: Lawyers have always known this. But what's happened, I think,

438
00:22:19,590 --> 00:22:22,750
Speaker 1: to make your point, is now we have accessible so

439
00:22:22,790 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: many TikTok videos. And instead of reading an article, I

440
00:22:25,630 --> 00:22:27,300
Speaker 1: can throw it in ChatGBT and it just gives you

441
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 1: a quick summary in the bottom line. And I think

442
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,310
Speaker 1: gambling does the same thing. is that there's certain practices

443
00:22:33,369 --> 00:22:36,990
Speaker 1: in our culture that weigh against the cultivation of virtue.

444
00:22:38,050 --> 00:22:41,210
Speaker 1: So it's so much easier to fall into vice than

445
00:22:41,230 --> 00:22:44,689
Speaker 1: it is to develop virtues. That's always been human nature.

446
00:22:45,109 --> 00:22:48,210
Speaker 1: But what's different now is the accessibility of gambling, the

447
00:22:48,230 --> 00:22:51,350
Speaker 1: accessibility of AI. And I think it plays to our

448
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:55,129
Speaker 1: lowest nature. You can get quick results with that. But

449
00:22:55,190 --> 00:23:01,980
Speaker 1: my encouragement to apologists is slow down, cultivate character, cultivate

450
00:23:02,060 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: community go to a church learn how to think dive

451
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:10,430
Speaker 1: into the scriptures get that character and that base first

452
00:23:11,130 --> 00:23:14,230
Speaker 1: then you're in a position to have a more lasting

453
00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 1: influence but I also would say you're you're Your focus

454
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:20,619
Speaker 1: on goodness, truth, and beauty. Again, I'm only putting this

455
00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:22,719
Speaker 1: out because I want people to realize there's nothing new

456
00:23:22,780 --> 00:23:26,420
Speaker 1: about that, right? I mean, ancient Greeks, they're like goodness, truth,

457
00:23:26,820 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: and beauty. But I think the apologetics movement leaned so

458
00:23:30,260 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: heavily into rational argument evidence and didn't understand that that's

459
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: not the primary way most people will make decisions. If

460
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,980
Speaker 1: their heart is like, I don't like Christians, then that's

461
00:23:42,010 --> 00:23:45,090
Speaker 1: going to affect how they assess the evidence. So I

462
00:23:45,090 --> 00:23:48,580
Speaker 1: had a debate recently, a few years ago, on sexuality.

463
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,980
Speaker 1: I was like, I not only need to show that

464
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: a biblical view is true and it's right. I've got

465
00:23:55,140 --> 00:23:58,899
Speaker 1: to show that it's beautiful and ask myself, how do

466
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: I do that where people want it to be true?

467
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,139
Speaker 3: And I've started doing that with a resurrection.

468
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,740
Speaker 1: I used to, I give this example, the band I

469
00:24:06,790 --> 00:24:09,510
Speaker 1: won't go into about how I'll even use infinity war

470
00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:13,070
Speaker 1: to make the point about how that movie is about

471
00:24:14,369 --> 00:24:17,740
Speaker 1: really what will we sacrifice a human life for? When

472
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,820
Speaker 1: can we sacrifice a human life? And the ultimate hero

473
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:26,050
Speaker 1: is Iron Man, willingly laying down his life for others.

474
00:24:27,010 --> 00:24:30,270
Speaker 1: And our hearts resonate with that kind of hero.

475
00:24:30,750 --> 00:24:31,610
Speaker 3: Well, that's fiction.

476
00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:34,610
Speaker 1: The story of Christ is that God actually did.

477
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:35,390
Speaker 3: That in history.

478
00:24:35,410 --> 00:24:38,230
Speaker 1: And I found when I frame it that way, it

479
00:24:38,410 --> 00:24:41,190
Speaker 1: opens up more for the evidence because they think, oh,

480
00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:45,740
Speaker 1: that resonates with my heart in this vibes-based epistemology. And

481
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:46,979
Speaker 1: so I think the last thing I'll say and then

482
00:24:47,020 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: weigh in here is we can make a mistake being

483
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,580
Speaker 1: all like rational, logical, but we can also make a

484
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 1: mistake playing into the vibes-based culture and just beauty, just.

485
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,479
Speaker 3: Feeling, just story apart from truth.

486
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,640
Speaker 1: Seems we need to balance those two together, biblically speaking,

487
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:04,919
Speaker 1: but also most effectively.

488
00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:10,090
Speaker 2: Your thoughts? It's good. Hopefully Christian apologists can lead the

489
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,949
Speaker 2: way in trying to wed Goodness, truth, and beauty. And

490
00:25:14,050 --> 00:25:17,230
Speaker 2: showing that these things all relate because our belief is

491
00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:19,370
Speaker 2: they all go back to God himself. God is the good,

492
00:25:19,390 --> 00:25:21,330
Speaker 2: the true, and the beautiful. So we want to show,

493
00:25:21,970 --> 00:25:24,750
Speaker 2: this is the metaphor I used yesterday in my chapel talk,

494
00:25:24,810 --> 00:25:28,500
Speaker 2: is trying to feed your children vegetables when they're not

495
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,740
Speaker 2: hungry is very difficult.

496
00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:31,740
Speaker 3: And they don't like vegetables.

497
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 2: And they don't like, so yeah, it's vegetables and they're

498
00:25:34,020 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 2: not hungry. It's like, how's that going to go? Like

499
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,310
Speaker 2: every parent knows that. We do apologetics like that so much.

500
00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,619
Speaker 2: We are trying to just jam something down someone's throat.

501
00:25:45,460 --> 00:25:47,180
Speaker 2: So what I was making the appeal for, which is

502
00:25:47,460 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 2: of my book, is exactly what you're saying of speaking

503
00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:54,120
Speaker 2: to the heart, making the old advice from Pascal, make

504
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,990
Speaker 2: someone wish it were true. And so the whole theme

505
00:25:59,030 --> 00:26:01,869
Speaker 2: of my book is the ache in your heart. But

506
00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:05,090
Speaker 2: the book is filled with arguments. So I'm trying to

507
00:26:05,130 --> 00:26:07,530
Speaker 2: do both and. Speak to the mind and the heart.

508
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 2: But the heart can be a doorway to the mind.

509
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:11,470
Speaker 2: I love it.

510
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: This would take us aside, but there's a professor here

511
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,619
Speaker 1: whose office I could literally walk out. It's 10 feet

512
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,370
Speaker 1: in front of me. Greg Gansel wrote a book called

513
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,850
Speaker 1: Our Deepest Desires. It's an incredible book if you haven't

514
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:24,470
Speaker 1: seen it. And his whole point is the deepest desires

515
00:26:24,510 --> 00:26:26,850
Speaker 1: we have to be good, to be known as good

516
00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:32,410
Speaker 1: for human relationship, for meaning. Those are the deepest desires

517
00:26:32,450 --> 00:26:35,930
Speaker 1: that we have in life in a transcend time. All

518
00:26:35,970 --> 00:26:39,129
Speaker 1: of those make sense within a Christian worldview. So how

519
00:26:39,150 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: do we find a hook for those deepest desires and say, actually,

520
00:26:42,140 --> 00:26:45,540
Speaker 1: they are found in the person of Christ? And this

521
00:26:45,619 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: is true. Then you're doing effective apologetics. All right, we

522
00:26:48,580 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: got to keep rolling. This is intra-Christian trench warfare.

523
00:26:53,660 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: Tell us about that.

524
00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:58,230
Speaker 2: I wish I didn't have to use the phrase trench

525
00:26:58,290 --> 00:27:02,910
Speaker 2: warfare because that's a painful image. But unfortunately, I think

526
00:27:02,970 --> 00:27:06,649
Speaker 2: we have to recognize there's a lot of painful disagreement

527
00:27:06,730 --> 00:27:09,790
Speaker 2: among Christians. You mentioned this earlier. Now, some disagreements can

528
00:27:09,810 --> 00:27:12,730
Speaker 2: be healthier than others. Sure. And in fact, the breakout

529
00:27:12,750 --> 00:27:15,100
Speaker 2: I'm about to do is on healthy disagreement. How do

530
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,180
Speaker 2: we pursue that? But unfortunately, I think we see a

531
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: lot of uncharitable disagreement among Christians and also sometimes unwise disagreement,

532
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,730
Speaker 2: you know, public things or Disagreeing where we don't necessarily

533
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:31,190
Speaker 2: need to divide over something, but we end up dividing.

534
00:27:32,270 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: We see fragmentation. We see deterioration of relationships. But then

535
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: also just the major differences within Christendom seem like they're

536
00:27:40,740 --> 00:27:44,340
Speaker 2: getting a lot more attention right now. And when I started,

537
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,070
Speaker 2: so I mentioned 2019 earlier. In 2019, I started researching

538
00:27:49,109 --> 00:27:52,090
Speaker 2: about narrative and beauty unto apologetics. That led to my

539
00:27:52,670 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: first book on this topic. At that point, I was

540
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: not thinking at all about Protestant views versus other Christian views.

541
00:28:00,340 --> 00:28:02,820
Speaker 2: And I've gotten pulled into those conversations to try to

542
00:28:02,859 --> 00:28:05,859
Speaker 2: meet needs for people because a lot of people are

543
00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:09,590
Speaker 2: wrestling with that. And so I think that is connected

544
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,830
Speaker 2: to apologetics in some way. I think some people, for example,

545
00:28:14,109 --> 00:28:16,250
Speaker 2: I mean, one basic way is some people are questioning

546
00:28:16,270 --> 00:28:19,510
Speaker 2: their salvation because they're wondering, am I in the one

547
00:28:19,550 --> 00:28:19,970
Speaker 2: true church?

548
00:28:20,290 --> 00:28:20,990
Speaker 3: That's painful.

549
00:28:21,869 --> 00:28:24,650
Speaker 2: Very painful. And then we see some pretty fierce warfare

550
00:28:24,670 --> 00:28:27,290
Speaker 2: about these things online too. So that's a piece of

551
00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:30,020
Speaker 2: all of this. And my heart for it is Christians

552
00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: would learn how to defend what they believe in a

553
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:37,699
Speaker 2: way that honors the truth and doesn't trivialize these disagreements,

554
00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: but also has sort of appropriate sense of grace and

555
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: decorum in the way we talk. So that if I'm,

556
00:28:46,020 --> 00:28:47,830
Speaker 2: if I am talking to someone that I believe also

557
00:28:47,870 --> 00:28:50,710
Speaker 2: knows Jesus and the conversation will be flavored in some

558
00:28:50,750 --> 00:28:53,070
Speaker 2: way because of that. And I think there's a sense

559
00:28:53,110 --> 00:28:56,550
Speaker 2: of balance there of recognizing where we have agreements, but

560
00:28:56,610 --> 00:29:00,140
Speaker 2: also not being afraid necessarily to talk through the disagreements.

561
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,140
Speaker 2: I think if we only ever talk about mere Christianity,

562
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: I don't think that serves our people well, because at

563
00:29:07,220 --> 00:29:10,060
Speaker 2: some point someone's going to say, okay, I'm a Christian. Now,

564
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,310
Speaker 2: which church do I go to? And what does it

565
00:29:12,370 --> 00:29:15,290
Speaker 2: look like to follow Jesus? And so helping them count

566
00:29:15,330 --> 00:29:17,870
Speaker 2: the cost is we're going to need to pastor and

567
00:29:17,910 --> 00:29:19,610
Speaker 2: shepherd our people on those questions too.

568
00:29:20,110 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 3: I'd love to know why you think that has shifted.

569
00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: Because if I go back to even like early 2000s

570
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: when I'm starting to speak a little bit and started

571
00:29:27,740 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: to teach high school Bible in 2003 for a decade,

572
00:29:31,220 --> 00:29:35,190
Speaker 1: I was not getting questions about Israel. I was not

573
00:29:35,230 --> 00:29:38,490
Speaker 1: getting many questions at all about, say, Catholicism.

574
00:29:38,510 --> 00:29:39,890
Speaker 3: A little bit about Islam.

575
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,620
Speaker 1: Coming out of 2001, but that's increasing more and more now,

576
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:47,140
Speaker 1: I think, for a number of different reasons. But as

577
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,910
Speaker 1: best I can tell, I would attribute it to a

578
00:29:49,940 --> 00:29:54,930
Speaker 1: few things. There's no longer any Billy Graham-type figure that

579
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:58,630
Speaker 1: can kind of hold across Christendom together in the way

580
00:29:58,670 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: that he did. In many ways, my dad did ministry

581
00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:04,420
Speaker 1: during that era, so he would be invited in to

582
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,150
Speaker 1: speak with Catholics, with Charismatics, with conservatives, with people like

583
00:30:09,630 --> 00:30:13,430
Speaker 1: conservative Baptists, with all sorts of different denominations. It was

584
00:30:13,470 --> 00:30:15,870
Speaker 1: kind of like his lane was, the Bible is true,

585
00:30:16,470 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: Jesus has risen from the grave, biblical sexuality, which didn't

586
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: get into any of the nuances today. And you could

587
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,890
Speaker 1: kind of speak across all these issues. For me, I

588
00:30:26,970 --> 00:30:30,730
Speaker 1: found in my generation, it's way harder to do that.

589
00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 3: It's almost impossible.

590
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:35,860
Speaker 1: And partly I mourn that. I think, man, can we

591
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,140
Speaker 1: just work together? There's so much infighting that's here. And

592
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,980
Speaker 1: to me, a lot of it is sideways energy. Although

593
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,300
Speaker 1: your point, some of these issues are important and deserve attention.

594
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 3: So you agree with that?

595
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,130
Speaker 1: Or were there any other factors you would add for

596
00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:51,670
Speaker 1: why we have that inter-Christian trench warfare?

597
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: I wonder if one other additional factor is this sense

598
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:01,900
Speaker 2: of historical desire for belonging. People want to know their

599
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,810
Speaker 2: place in history. And I think there's such a sense

600
00:31:04,870 --> 00:31:07,990
Speaker 2: of instability in the world and anxiety about the future.

601
00:31:08,550 --> 00:31:12,190
Speaker 2: People want something secure, like a solid rock that they

602
00:31:12,210 --> 00:31:14,970
Speaker 2: can stand on that is not going to shift with

603
00:31:14,990 --> 00:31:17,910
Speaker 2: the times. And so sometimes we can look to a

604
00:31:17,970 --> 00:31:22,420
Speaker 2: particular church tradition for that or just... And there's something

605
00:31:22,460 --> 00:31:24,980
Speaker 2: about that that's really beautiful, right? That actually can be

606
00:31:25,030 --> 00:31:28,070
Speaker 2: our apologetic in part is to say, come to Jesus.

607
00:31:28,190 --> 00:31:30,910
Speaker 2: And number one, here's who he is as a savior.

608
00:31:31,410 --> 00:31:33,510
Speaker 2: And number two, you're a part of his family now.

609
00:31:34,090 --> 00:31:37,710
Speaker 2: And you're coming into this tradition, which is really beautiful.

610
00:31:38,150 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: Of course, one of the dangers that can come about

611
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: is that healthy sense of belonging can morph into an

612
00:31:45,340 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 2: idol if the tradition becomes more of our sense of

613
00:31:48,980 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: security than Christ himself. And so a big part of

614
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: my emphasis, I talk about gospel assurance a lot. I

615
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,980
Speaker 2: want people to find that sense of standing on a

616
00:31:58,060 --> 00:32:03,110
Speaker 2: solid rock in Christ and the gospel ultimately. And then

617
00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:05,650
Speaker 2: of course, there's a healthy sense of also feeling a

618
00:32:05,690 --> 00:32:07,730
Speaker 2: sense of historical placement. But I think a lot of

619
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:10,380
Speaker 2: people are asking that question, where do I belong? And

620
00:32:10,390 --> 00:32:14,620
Speaker 2: that leads us into these conversations amidst different Christian traditions.

621
00:32:15,460 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: And so, yeah, and those conversations matter. You know, we, uh,

622
00:32:19,010 --> 00:32:21,990
Speaker 2: part of, again, all I've gotten into it to do

623
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:24,219
Speaker 2: is just to try to honor the questions coming at

624
00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: me and not trivialize them. And so sometimes, but I,

625
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: I'm with you in that. I want to have these

626
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: conversations in a God honoring way where we're among Christians, uh,

627
00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:38,310
Speaker 2: working through our differences, but also there are times to

628
00:32:38,380 --> 00:32:43,550
Speaker 2: just come together, uh, over basic issues of morality, uh,

629
00:32:43,710 --> 00:32:48,860
Speaker 2: over basic issues of, um, opposing some of just the

630
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:53,140
Speaker 2: aggressive secularism in our culture, things like that. So I

631
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,050
Speaker 2: feel a sense of balance here. And let's do general

632
00:32:56,070 --> 00:33:01,910
Speaker 2: Christian apologetics. Let's also do apologetics for our particular views.

633
00:33:02,210 --> 00:33:03,729
Speaker 2: But those will play out a little differently.

634
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:04,750
Speaker 3: That's totally fair.

635
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:07,150
Speaker 1: Our next video is going to be on eight reasons

636
00:33:07,210 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 1: why you are Protestant and not Catholic.

637
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:10,820
Speaker 3: Charitably done.

638
00:33:10,900 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: But if you had told me six months ago I'd

639
00:33:12,420 --> 00:33:14,220
Speaker 1: be doing this video, I would have said, Gavin, you

640
00:33:14,260 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: got the wrong McDowell.

641
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:16,380
Speaker 3: No chance.

642
00:33:16,930 --> 00:33:19,510
Speaker 1: But I get asked about it so often, I feel like, okay,

643
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:22,540
Speaker 1: I need to at least help some people that are

644
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: asking me these questions. Even though, frankly, it interests me

645
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: a little bit less, these questions are really important in

646
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,260
Speaker 1: the minds of this generation.

647
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:31,700
Speaker 3: So we're going to wade into that.

648
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,780
Speaker 1: All right, your fifth kind of apologetic trend is a

649
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: stirring spiritual hunger.

650
00:33:38,570 --> 00:33:42,620
Speaker 2: And I don't have... a real tight understanding of how

651
00:33:42,860 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: much this is the case. It might be wishful thinking.

652
00:33:46,540 --> 00:33:50,140
Speaker 2: All right. I just really want to see revival in

653
00:33:50,180 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 2: our time. I really want to see a renewal of churches,

654
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,070
Speaker 2: less infighting, more of a calming and healing of Christian relationship.

655
00:33:57,490 --> 00:33:59,610
Speaker 2: And then I really want to see the gospel go forward.

656
00:34:00,090 --> 00:34:04,750
Speaker 2: And I do sense young people asking questions with a

657
00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:08,030
Speaker 2: bit more openness. I'm curious the extent to which you

658
00:34:08,070 --> 00:34:09,830
Speaker 2: see this as well. But I just see a little

659
00:34:09,850 --> 00:34:12,300
Speaker 2: bit more, you know, whether you're looking at Bible sales

660
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 2: or church attendance, there is something happening. I can't gauge

661
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:20,259
Speaker 2: exactly how much, but I'm praying that that increases. And

662
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 2: I'm praying for a third great awakening. And I'm praying

663
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,029
Speaker 2: that God does something wonderful in our time and that many,

664
00:34:27,070 --> 00:34:30,150
Speaker 2: many people come to find Jesus. People are going to

665
00:34:30,210 --> 00:34:33,890
Speaker 2: find a gospel. They're going to find something that feels

666
00:34:33,930 --> 00:34:36,390
Speaker 2: like good news to base your life on. I want

667
00:34:36,430 --> 00:34:41,069
Speaker 2: it to be the true gospel. And so, yeah, I'm

668
00:34:41,090 --> 00:34:45,770
Speaker 2: just excited. I don't feel hopeless. I feel excited. I

669
00:34:45,850 --> 00:34:49,580
Speaker 2: feel eager. I feel prayerful. I don't know what's going

670
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,299
Speaker 2: to happen, but I just really desire for there to

671
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,500
Speaker 2: be a new work of God that goes forward in

672
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:55,900
Speaker 2: our time. That's what I want to give my life to.

673
00:34:56,739 --> 00:34:57,379
Speaker 3: Amen to that.

674
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: We could mic drop at that moment, but I got

675
00:34:58,980 --> 00:35:02,760
Speaker 1: a handful more questions for you. This is one based

676
00:35:02,820 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: on when it says stirring spiritual hunger. I probably would

677
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,700
Speaker 1: have rated it a little bit less, even though the

678
00:35:07,739 --> 00:35:11,280
Speaker 1: apologetic change may be a little bit higher. Stirring strikes

679
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,580
Speaker 1: me as almost like revival type. So I would describe

680
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: it more as an openness, maybe a shift in the conversation.

681
00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: And there's some studies that show more men are going

682
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: to church, more Bible sales. But even Ryan Burge is like,

683
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,460
Speaker 1: by any metric of revival, he's one of the leading,

684
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,940
Speaker 1: as you know, demographers. He's like, there's no evidence of

685
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,300
Speaker 1: a revival in the U.S.

686
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:33,970
Speaker 3: Or beyond.

687
00:35:34,630 --> 00:35:37,830
Speaker 1: But I hear enough anecdotes from people to make me

688
00:35:37,890 --> 00:35:40,989
Speaker 1: think maybe something is going on. I've just done this

689
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:43,969
Speaker 1: long enough. I remember in the early 2000s, the emergent

690
00:35:44,130 --> 00:35:46,390
Speaker 1: church movement. If you remember that time, people are like,

691
00:35:46,450 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: apologetics is dead. Share your story. And I'm like, I

692
00:35:50,580 --> 00:35:53,410
Speaker 1: work with students regularly. they're asking me as many apologetic

693
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:57,710
Speaker 1: questions as ever. And so sometimes there are certain narratives

694
00:35:57,750 --> 00:36:00,290
Speaker 1: that we accept that don't match up with the evidence.

695
00:36:00,410 --> 00:36:03,049
Speaker 1: And I want to caution myself from jumping ahead and

696
00:36:03,090 --> 00:36:06,380
Speaker 1: talking revival when I don't know if the data is there,

697
00:36:07,020 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 1: but certainly the conversation is shifted from the new atheist.

698
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: And where I go, the vast majority of people are

699
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,700
Speaker 1: open and willing to have spiritual conversations. That's for sure

700
00:36:18,820 --> 00:36:21,549
Speaker 1: in my experience. How to rate it, I really don't

701
00:36:21,590 --> 00:36:24,330
Speaker 1: know the answer to that one. Let me ask you

702
00:36:24,350 --> 00:36:26,850
Speaker 1: this question, just a handful more. Are there certain issues

703
00:36:26,890 --> 00:36:28,969
Speaker 1: you get asked that you didn't in the past? And

704
00:36:29,010 --> 00:36:34,300
Speaker 1: for me, it's really Catholicism and Israel are issues even

705
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: five years ago, I was not asked. Are there any,

706
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:40,739
Speaker 1: do you get asked, you obviously get asked about Catholicism

707
00:36:40,780 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: and Orthodoxy. Are there any other issues you get asked

708
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: about a lot that are maybe different?

709
00:36:45,219 --> 00:36:48,130
Speaker 2: Those are the big ones. There are, I mean, some

710
00:36:48,190 --> 00:36:51,529
Speaker 2: of these cultural trends. So, AI. I think AI is

711
00:36:51,590 --> 00:36:54,009
Speaker 2: a big one just because of the technology advancing so

712
00:36:54,090 --> 00:36:58,089
Speaker 2: rapidly right now. Islam and other religions. Another thing would

713
00:36:58,180 --> 00:37:04,340
Speaker 2: be issues related to dark forms of spirituality. So, Satanism.

714
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:06,060
Speaker 3: That's very true.

715
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:11,220
Speaker 2: Witchcraft. Stuff like that. Questions, you know, it feels more

716
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: blatant now than 10 years ago. It feels like people,

717
00:37:14,020 --> 00:37:15,980
Speaker 2: a lot of Christians come to me and say, you know,

718
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:20,299
Speaker 2: my neighbor is dabbling in witchcraft. We're talking about that.

719
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 2: This question comes up. You know, this conversation happens a

720
00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:25,180
Speaker 2: little more now. But I just want to say I

721
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: do agree with you that when I say stirring spiritual hunger,

722
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,500
Speaker 2: all I'm going by is anecdotes. So I really don't know.

723
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: That's fair. But the hope is in the midst of

724
00:37:35,340 --> 00:37:39,180
Speaker 2: the chaos, the jungle, all this other stuff, I don't

725
00:37:39,219 --> 00:37:42,540
Speaker 2: want Christians to feel a sense of fear and despair. Amen.

726
00:37:42,780 --> 00:37:46,339
Speaker 2: The time is lean forward and pray big prayers and

727
00:37:46,380 --> 00:37:50,379
Speaker 2: dream big dreams and speak about the gospel. I almost

728
00:37:50,420 --> 00:37:53,430
Speaker 2: feel like, let's go for it. It's an exciting time

729
00:37:53,450 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: to be alive.

730
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:54,590
Speaker 3: Amen.

731
00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:56,469
Speaker 2: And say, God, do something new in our day.

732
00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 3: Preach it.

733
00:37:57,150 --> 00:38:01,710
Speaker 1: By the way, fear is self-focused. That's why one of

734
00:38:01,730 --> 00:38:03,830
Speaker 1: the biggest fears people have is public speaking. I don't

735
00:38:03,870 --> 00:38:06,989
Speaker 1: want to look bad because I'm thinking about myself. So

736
00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: there is a sense where we evangelicals, sometimes I analyze

737
00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:13,899
Speaker 1: our culture. I'm like, we're reacting out of fear. What's

738
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,800
Speaker 1: a biblical response to fear? Perfect love casts out fear.

739
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: So I often tell people, if you're nervous before you speak,

740
00:38:21,219 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: just ask, how do I love my audience? And it

741
00:38:24,219 --> 00:38:29,779
Speaker 1: goes from self-focused to other-focused. So all our job, as

742
00:38:29,820 --> 00:38:31,750
Speaker 1: you and me and everybody watching this, is to be

743
00:38:31,910 --> 00:38:35,049
Speaker 1: faithful in this generation to the gifts God has given us.

744
00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:39,380
Speaker 1: and to love people, which means speaking the truth with kindness.

745
00:38:39,820 --> 00:38:41,939
Speaker 1: That's all I can do. And if I'm faithful to that,

746
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: I can't help but be optimistic because I think Jesus

747
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:45,500
Speaker 1: has risen from the grave.

748
00:38:46,540 --> 00:38:47,549
Speaker 3: So Kate, let me ask you this.

749
00:38:48,140 --> 00:38:50,690
Speaker 1: Where do you think there's opportunities for apologists? And the

750
00:38:50,710 --> 00:38:53,489
Speaker 1: reason I ask this question is because there's two ways

751
00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:55,890
Speaker 1: to look at it. Sometimes apologists ask me, where are

752
00:38:55,969 --> 00:38:59,629
Speaker 1: opportunities where work needs to be done, which I appreciate.

753
00:39:00,210 --> 00:39:03,410
Speaker 1: That's one way to focus on if you're writing a

754
00:39:03,450 --> 00:39:05,830
Speaker 1: sub stack or a YouTube channel or getting a PhD.

755
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:09,590
Speaker 1: The other question is like, what do you love and

756
00:39:09,650 --> 00:39:12,500
Speaker 1: what interests you? And I tend to think that's a

757
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,420
Speaker 1: more important question because that's what's going to sustain and

758
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 1: motivate people. But when I think about opportunities, I just

759
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:22,610
Speaker 1: finished up a book, it won't be out for a while,

760
00:39:22,620 --> 00:39:25,070
Speaker 1: with John Stone Street on the theology of the body.

761
00:39:25,090 --> 00:39:29,270
Speaker 1: And when I read Carl Truman's book, The Rise and

762
00:39:29,310 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: Triumph of the Modern Self, I consider one of the

763
00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:33,540
Speaker 1: most important books in the past five or seven years.

764
00:39:33,980 --> 00:39:36,339
Speaker 1: At the very end, he's like, we need a robust

765
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: theology of embodiment. And I think Catholics get that right.

766
00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:43,339
Speaker 1: So I think there's big opportunity for evangelicals to lean

767
00:39:43,380 --> 00:39:45,989
Speaker 1: into that and be more consistent. The other one I

768
00:39:46,050 --> 00:39:49,660
Speaker 1: think is afterlife apologetics. I've totally leaned into this, Gavin.

769
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,420
Speaker 1: Like I've probably done as much on YouTube.

770
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:54,100
Speaker 3: I have a whole playlist. I haven't even checked.

771
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,380
Speaker 1: Probably 15 or 20 interviews with some of the top

772
00:39:56,500 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: on like miracles and visions, like visions of Muslims that

773
00:40:00,739 --> 00:40:04,110
Speaker 1: they're having of Jesus. Deep dive on that. Evidence for

774
00:40:04,150 --> 00:40:09,629
Speaker 1: angelic appearances. Near-death experiences. To me, that's an opportunity. I'm

775
00:40:09,650 --> 00:40:12,110
Speaker 1: trying to encourage apologists to go into.

776
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:13,569
Speaker 2: Are there other.

777
00:40:13,750 --> 00:40:16,879
Speaker 1: And by the way, Islam... Had an interview recently. We

778
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:21,700
Speaker 1: just started to see textual criticism of the Quran in

779
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:25,580
Speaker 1: a way that where people brought that criticism against Christians 50, 70.

780
00:40:25,590 --> 00:40:26,219
Speaker 3: 100 years ago.

781
00:40:26,969 --> 00:40:30,210
Speaker 1: And there are serious work that can be done there.

782
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:33,609
Speaker 1: Are you aware of any other areas? If somebody is like,

783
00:40:33,690 --> 00:40:35,969
Speaker 1: where does work need to be done and what opportunities

784
00:40:36,050 --> 00:40:37,210
Speaker 1: are there for apologists?

785
00:40:37,770 --> 00:40:38,310
Speaker 3: What would you say?

786
00:40:38,860 --> 00:40:41,780
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's exciting to think of people feeling

787
00:40:42,020 --> 00:40:45,330
Speaker 2: compelled to specialize in a particular area and go deep

788
00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:47,509
Speaker 2: in one area, whether it be a different religion, a

789
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:50,629
Speaker 2: particular argument. And then we can, of course, branch out there.

790
00:40:51,130 --> 00:40:52,770
Speaker 2: William Lane Craig, you think of all the work he

791
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:56,069
Speaker 2: did on the Kalam argument. He specialized there, right? And

792
00:40:56,090 --> 00:40:56,779
Speaker 2: that's a service.

793
00:40:56,860 --> 00:40:57,500
Speaker 3: And the resurrection.

794
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 2: And the resurrection. And Molinism.

795
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,060
Speaker 3: But your point.

796
00:41:01,620 --> 00:41:03,739
Speaker 2: Exactly. So he kept going. And you can do that.

797
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 3: He's a savant, but keep going.

798
00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: You can go from one thing to the other like that,

799
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,550
Speaker 2: but you've got to go deep. And I think sometimes

800
00:41:09,610 --> 00:41:12,370
Speaker 2: apologists kind of go shallow on everything. And they feel

801
00:41:12,390 --> 00:41:14,190
Speaker 2: like they need to cover every topic. I want to

802
00:41:14,210 --> 00:41:18,390
Speaker 2: encourage people to go deep and choose their topics and

803
00:41:18,410 --> 00:41:21,469
Speaker 2: go real deep on them. But one area that I

804
00:41:21,489 --> 00:41:24,290
Speaker 2: would love to mention is, and it's kind of I

805
00:41:24,330 --> 00:41:26,170
Speaker 2: was surprised this came up for me, but it's the

806
00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:30,950
Speaker 2: argument from fulfilled prophecy. Oh, so the one in why

807
00:41:30,989 --> 00:41:33,770
Speaker 2: Christianity makes sense. I got chapter eight on fulfilled prophecy.

808
00:41:34,230 --> 00:41:37,730
Speaker 2: Now I did not know what to expect getting into that.

809
00:41:37,810 --> 00:41:42,250
Speaker 2: I've only found two academic articles addressing it. It's very

810
00:41:42,350 --> 00:41:46,270
Speaker 2: under-resourced today, but all throughout church history from the church

811
00:41:46,310 --> 00:41:50,109
Speaker 2: fathers through up through blaze Pascal, people have appealed to

812
00:41:50,190 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: fulfilled prophecy. Um, In the last 10 years, I see

813
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,460
Speaker 2: less on it. But depending on how it is done,

814
00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:01,740
Speaker 2: I'm less of a fan of the kind of slam dunk.

815
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,460
Speaker 2: Any of these passages is obviously talking about Jesus and

816
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,450
Speaker 2: more of a fan of the Old Testament is a

817
00:42:08,510 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 2: coherent narrative. And it has this forward-looking expectation and hope.

818
00:42:12,930 --> 00:42:15,230
Speaker 2: And it looks a lot like Jesus. And it's really

819
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:19,589
Speaker 2: interesting to read passages like Isaiah 53 in relation to

820
00:42:19,650 --> 00:42:22,350
Speaker 2: the whole narrative and to ask, where did this hope

821
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:24,830
Speaker 2: come from? And why is it there? And what's the

822
00:42:24,950 --> 00:42:28,489
Speaker 2: best explanation for that? The argument from fulfilled prophecy is

823
00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:30,529
Speaker 2: cool because it gets you all the way to Christianity

824
00:42:30,969 --> 00:42:33,830
Speaker 2: as opposed to arguments just for God. And I just

825
00:42:33,850 --> 00:42:35,760
Speaker 2: think there's a lot there to explore. It can work

826
00:42:36,050 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 2: in terms of narrative. It can work in terms of beauty.

827
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: It's very textual. So it gets you into the Bible.

828
00:42:42,380 --> 00:42:44,900
Speaker 2: It has a lot of benefits and it's underexplored. So

829
00:42:44,940 --> 00:42:46,420
Speaker 2: I just hope people would explore that one more.

830
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:47,980
Speaker 1: You know what I love about that? And I had

831
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,609
Speaker 1: not thought about this, uh, I'm going to be using

832
00:42:50,650 --> 00:42:52,150
Speaker 1: that out. I'll try to remember to quote you if

833
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:54,850
Speaker 1: I can that you first said that. But there's certain

834
00:42:54,890 --> 00:42:57,469
Speaker 1: people who've spent their life, like Gary Habermas has spent

835
00:42:57,489 --> 00:43:00,529
Speaker 1: his life, four volumes on the resurrection. And when I

836
00:43:00,570 --> 00:43:03,629
Speaker 1: interviewed him, he's like, Sean, we've made the case. There's

837
00:43:03,650 --> 00:43:05,830
Speaker 1: going to always need to be people to tinker and respond,

838
00:43:05,850 --> 00:43:08,410
Speaker 1: but we've made the case. Think about the deity of Christ.

839
00:43:08,650 --> 00:43:12,969
Speaker 1: Rob Bowman and Ed Komaszewski's book, Leia Hurtado, Bauckham, like

840
00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:16,750
Speaker 1: we have the best case we have. The Soul, Substance

841
00:43:16,770 --> 00:43:19,310
Speaker 1: for the Soul by J.P. Moreland and Brandon Rickabaugh, the

842
00:43:19,350 --> 00:43:23,390
Speaker 1: most sophisticated case for the soul I think that we've had.

843
00:43:23,950 --> 00:43:29,219
Speaker 1: Evidence that God exists scientifically, Stephen Meyer's work, Kalam argument. Life,

844
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: Beckwith is updating his book on life. That'll be the

845
00:43:32,420 --> 00:43:37,259
Speaker 1: most sophisticated defense. But prophecy, nobody's done that.

846
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:38,620
Speaker 2: You're right.

847
00:43:39,140 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: When I interviewed 100 apologists, and I interviewed a year

848
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:44,109
Speaker 1: or one of them, made that video, There's only one

849
00:43:44,230 --> 00:43:45,290
Speaker 1: person who said.

850
00:43:45,170 --> 00:43:46,870
Speaker 3: Fulfilled prophecy is the best argument.

851
00:43:46,989 --> 00:43:47,430
Speaker 2: Fascinating.

852
00:43:47,710 --> 00:43:48,470
Speaker 3: And it was my dad.

853
00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:52,260
Speaker 1: Oh, really? He was the only one who thinks fulfilled

854
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: prophecy is the best argument for God.

855
00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:55,859
Speaker 2: Only one.

856
00:43:56,219 --> 00:43:58,500
Speaker 1: Kind of blew me away. So I think you're right.

857
00:43:58,540 --> 00:44:01,069
Speaker 1: There's some work that needs to be done there. And

858
00:44:01,310 --> 00:44:04,130
Speaker 1: you think about timeless versus timely to bring it full circle.

859
00:44:05,610 --> 00:44:09,930
Speaker 1: Like near-death experiences... Plato, there are stories in Plato's writings,

860
00:44:10,010 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: but now in the past 50, 60 years, we have

861
00:44:12,700 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: the medical ability to keep people alive and study them

862
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:17,300
Speaker 1: in a way we couldn't in the past. That's a

863
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,540
Speaker 1: more timely issue. Prophecy is a timeless issue. It's been

864
00:44:21,580 --> 00:44:23,129
Speaker 1: around since, well.

865
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 2: Acts 2.

866
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,489
Speaker 1: They're referring to fulfilled prophecy.

867
00:44:27,070 --> 00:44:27,790
Speaker 3: So I love that.

868
00:44:27,830 --> 00:44:30,230
Speaker 1: If you're an apologist and you're watching this, here's my

869
00:44:30,290 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 1: final encouragement. Get involved in a church. Know the word well.

870
00:44:38,210 --> 00:44:42,570
Speaker 1: know the scriptures, pour into the scriptures, and get a mentor.

871
00:44:43,430 --> 00:44:47,820
Speaker 1: And finally, don't compare yourself to anybody else. Be who

872
00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: God has called you to be, and that's very freeing.

873
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,540
Speaker 1: Any final words for a young apologist?

874
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,540
Speaker 2: Those are also good. I'll just add on two that

875
00:44:55,580 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: are consistent with that. One is love the people in

876
00:45:00,219 --> 00:45:02,770
Speaker 2: your life who don't know Jesus with all of your heart,

877
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:05,830
Speaker 2: ask Jesus to give you his compassion for them. If

878
00:45:05,870 --> 00:45:08,170
Speaker 2: there's not love in your heart for them, and if

879
00:45:08,210 --> 00:45:10,529
Speaker 2: you love them, that will translate in the way you

880
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:13,090
Speaker 2: speak more broadly as well. But think of that metaphor

881
00:45:13,150 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: from our Lord, sheep without a shepherd. Understand the compassion

882
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 2: we should have for people who don't have a shepherd.

883
00:45:19,940 --> 00:45:21,900
Speaker 2: They don't know the God of the universe and they

884
00:45:21,940 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 2: need that. Let your heart be tenderized in love and

885
00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:27,580
Speaker 2: then just always fall back on Jesus's own love for

886
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:33,310
Speaker 2: you Remember that you worship Jesus and he's your savior,

887
00:45:34,010 --> 00:45:37,270
Speaker 2: not your own arguments for him. And so let your

888
00:45:37,310 --> 00:45:43,779
Speaker 2: own existential experience of Christ be your ultimate fallback and reality,

889
00:45:43,980 --> 00:45:47,060
Speaker 2: not your case for Christ, if that makes sense. Amen.

890
00:45:47,219 --> 00:45:48,899
Speaker 1: And by the way, you just spoke on your new book,

891
00:45:48,940 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: Why Christianity Makes Sense. One of my students was walking

892
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,219
Speaker 1: out and he goes, he goes, man, Mr. McDowell, that

893
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:57,510
Speaker 1: was great. We should use that in our curriculum here. Now,

894
00:45:57,570 --> 00:46:00,910
Speaker 1: for people who have multiple chapels a week, in my class,

895
00:46:00,969 --> 00:46:03,230
Speaker 1: to say that bodes well. And what you do in

896
00:46:03,270 --> 00:46:05,169
Speaker 1: this book is you not only lay out the truth,

897
00:46:05,190 --> 00:46:07,650
Speaker 1: but you talk about the goodness and the beauty, and

898
00:46:07,670 --> 00:46:10,170
Speaker 1: you make that case. So check out Why Christianity Makes Sense.

899
00:46:10,570 --> 00:46:13,730
Speaker 1: Think about studying with us here at Talbot School of Theology.

900
00:46:13,770 --> 00:46:15,850
Speaker 1: We would love to have you in the program.

901
00:46:16,330 --> 00:46:17,430
Speaker 3: Gavin, we'll do it again, man.

902
00:46:17,510 --> 00:46:20,350
Speaker 1: Our next issue, or next issue, whatever you call it, episode,

903
00:46:20,370 --> 00:46:23,370
Speaker 1: we're going to walk through eight reasons why you're Protestant,

904
00:46:23,410 --> 00:46:26,860
Speaker 1: which implies why you're not Catholic. Not trying to stir

905
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:28,500
Speaker 1: up all the debate, but we get asked this all

906
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:30,180
Speaker 1: the time. So we're going to walk through the big

907
00:46:30,380 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: dividing issues and just clarify what you believe and why

908
00:46:34,219 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: you believe it in a way that's helpful.

909
00:46:35,860 --> 00:46:37,300
Speaker 3: So we'll see folks in the next video.

910
00:46:37,540 --> 00:46:38,690
Speaker 2: Sounds great. Looking forward to it.