1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 2: Hi from the Salvation Army. You're listening to Words of Life. 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Words. 4 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 3: These are the words, the words, words, the words. These 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 3: are the words of the life. 6 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Words of Life. I'm Bernie Dake and 7 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 2: this week we are excited to have a new guest 8 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: with us, Sergeant Barry Brown. Welcome Barry. 9 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: Thank you brother. 10 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: Tell us who you are and what you do for 11 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: the Salvation Army. 12 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: Well, as you mentioned, Sergeant Barry Brown, I work for 13 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: the Texas Divisional Headquarters out of Dallas and been with 14 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: the Salvation Army since nineteen ninety nine. As an employee. 15 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: I'm the Divisional Director of Correctional Ministries for the State 16 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,839 Speaker 1: of Texas. Anything related to correctional ministries in the State 17 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 1: of Texas we try to assist now. For a long time, 18 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: we did that primarily with a focus on the incarcerated. 19 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: When I moved into this position fifteen years ago, I 20 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: realized that we had been missing something and that was 21 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: the ministry to the staff. And so we approach things 22 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: now as a holistic approach to ministry, not just for 23 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: those who are incarcerated, which many people and even myself 24 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: for many many years as a volunteer been going into 25 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: correctional facilities for twenty eight years, and so I see 26 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: that we had missed a lot of things. And I 27 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: think we not just the Savage Army, but many organizations 28 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: and ministries missed the opportunity for the staff. And there's 29 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: some very scary but real information out there about the 30 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: impact that correctional facilities have upon the staff themselves or 31 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: a high divorce rates, abuse and suicides. So we wanted 32 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: to make sure that we included them in ways. And 33 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: we can talk a little bit more later about that. 34 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about your early 35 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: life and your journey through Christianity. 36 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 1: Well, it's an interesting one, as I'm sure most people's 37 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: journey is. As a young boy, my mother took me 38 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 1: and my three older sisters to church Sunday. After Sunday 39 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: in my teenage years, I walked away from the church. 40 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 1: Me and my friends were talking on the back roll 41 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: of the church and had one of the men come 42 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: to me and say you need to be down at 43 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: the altar, and young teenage self, I said, you know, 44 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: you need to get your hands off of me, and 45 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 1: I got up and walked out. My life went downhill 46 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: after that went through a bad marriage. That brought me 47 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: back to the church for a short period of time, 48 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: and within a month and a half I walked away again. 49 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: So this time when I came back was after the 50 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: death of my father in nineteen ninety seven. That's what 51 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: the Lord used to get my attention. And get my 52 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 1: attention he did. I realized that the Lord had spared 53 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: my dad from an accident some years before I was born. 54 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: The near death experience that he shared with me was real, 55 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: and he and I talked about that before he passed. 56 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: I realized the Lord has spared him, and as a result, 57 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: I'm here. And I realized the Lord doesn't make mistakes, 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: so he must have spared me for a reason. Spared 59 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: my dad so I was born, spared me through situations, 60 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: so it must be that I'm here for a reason. 61 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: So my prayer, his Lord used me to make a difference. 62 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: There's a burning desire. 63 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 4: Hey, you're listening to the Salvation Armies words of life. 64 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 4: We're going to take a quick bad break and we'll 65 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 4: be right back. 66 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 2: We've been focused on community engagement as we've been discussing 67 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: how we as followers of Christ should be the best neighbors. 68 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 2: And as we think about that, what is a community 69 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: of people that we often overlook in your opinion. 70 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: Well, in my opinion, that is definitely as far as 71 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 1: any of the work ministries do. It's the incarcerated individuals 72 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: and those individuals that have found themselves either in a 73 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,839 Speaker 1: place as a result of their choices, their decisions, or 74 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: sometimes their association. They may not be the one that 75 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: was they were part of, they were part of what happened, 76 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 1: but nonetheless they find themselves incarcerated. So they're not always 77 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: the aspect of being guilty of the action, but guilty 78 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: of association and tried in Synesis. But those are the 79 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: people that are living in correctional facilities around the nation, 80 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: around the world for that matter. But there's a huge 81 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 1: ambission field that we have overlooked. And I'm sure there's 82 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: various reasons. Not everybody's called to this area of ministry. 83 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: We have some great ministries doing the work savesmire. We 84 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: have some of us, but not very many of us 85 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: that are directly engaged, but we are overlooking the people 86 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: that are incarcerated and behind the rays of wire, the concrete, 87 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: and the still thinking that they're forgotten but as much 88 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: as what we can do, we want to let them 89 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 1: know that they're not forgotten and God hasn't forgotten them. 90 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 2: And men courage to hear you say. It's not just 91 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 2: the incarcerated people that you know that we're ministering too. 92 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: You include the people that are working in these facilities, 93 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: and I imagine even the families that are without parents 94 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 2: or whomever relatives that are now incarcerated. That's encouraging. What 95 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 2: would you say is the biblical foundation that caused us 96 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: as Christians to care for those people in prison. 97 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: We could go to scripture and I think the one 98 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: that we come to most often is Matthew twenty five 99 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: and it says, when I was in prison, you came 100 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 1: to me. But you know we can we can see 101 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: that and think, oh, well, that's just one. But I 102 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: think we have to do a very deliberate effort to deny. 103 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say we're dact but maybe if we want 104 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: to use that word, but deny the fact that there's 105 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: other stricture. And when we get to how sincere we 106 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: are and about following what the scripture says, you can 107 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: look at Hebrews thirteen three and says remember those in 108 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: prison as though you were in prison with them. You know, 109 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: we look at what Jesus himself did. Scripture says, if 110 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: we know him, we must walk as he walked in 111 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: First John chapter two. So how are we walking? Are 112 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: we walking towards the people? Are we bringing our light 113 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: into their darkness? And so if Jesus did this, look 114 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: at what he did. He gave a promise to a 115 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: thief on the cross that acknowledged him. In the final moments, 116 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: we see that Jesus took Thabs's place. Now there's a 117 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: retired officer that said this once and said, if it's 118 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me to rea. 119 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: And what he's referring to is reaching to the lives 120 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: of those incarcerated and impacted by crime. And sometimes it's 121 00:07:55,880 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: just bluntly destructive decisions. And we've all been there. But 122 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: you know, it says just Jesus. You know, when he 123 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: pursed Peter three, it talks about that being made alive 124 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: in the spirit. He then went and preached to the 125 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: spirits in prison after they were disobedient long ago, when 126 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: God patiently waited in the days of Noah, as the 127 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: arc was being constructed. So you know, we miss that, 128 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and I missed that for a while. But it's like 129 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: I see that, and it's like Jesus went and preached 130 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: the spirits in prison that were being held since the 131 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 1: time of Noah. Whatever the deeper theological depths of that, 132 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: we can make it very deep and theological. But I 133 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: think on the surface, it says what it says. And 134 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: Isaiah's one more. He says, to open the blind eyes, 135 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: to release prisoners from dungeons, those who live in darkness 136 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: from prisons. So it's throughout. 137 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,079 Speaker 4: We pray that you're enjoying and being blessed by this conversation. 138 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 4: We're going to take one more advocate and we'll be 139 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 4: right back. 140 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: Based on what you've seen and the interaction that you've 141 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: had with people that are associated with incarceration, whether that's 142 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: the incarcerated or those that are providing care for them, 143 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 2: why would you say it's important for the church to 144 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: show up. 145 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: Like any of us. It's important for people to know 146 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: that somebody cares. I would say for the church, the 147 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: importance is to let people know, whether they're incarcerated or not, 148 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: or they may have been formally incarcerated, to let them 149 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: know that somebody cares and for the church to show up. 150 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: There's something in what I hold as the key point 151 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: of what I do, and the approach in my visits 152 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 1: is basically the ministry of presence, showing up, showing up, 153 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,200 Speaker 1: being consistent, listening, not going with a hidden agenda of 154 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: trying to convert somebody, to change somebody. Because I didn't 155 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: want that, I didn't respect that. That's what turned me 156 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: away from the church. But be real, and that's what 157 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: they're looking for. The guys that I visit, and I've 158 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: seen over these twenty eight years of going into facilities, 159 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: they're very stilled at reading people. They know when you're real, 160 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: they know when you're not. They know when you're faking it. 161 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: So be real and there's nothing else show them. Jesus 162 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: bring our light into their darkness. Yeah, it's good, we say, 163 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: as a savage army, meet human needs in his name 164 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: without discrimination, right, and so hope is in need? Are 165 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: we meeting that need? And what about the discrimination do 166 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: we predetermine in our mind and our assessment as our criteria. Well, 167 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: I'll meet this need as long as this person meets 168 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: my criteria being worthy or I'm not afraid of them 169 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,680 Speaker 1: or whatever. But it's without discrimination that you can look 170 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: somebody in the face pretty well know what they've done. 171 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: I don't ever ask them, but to know. It's not 172 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: with discrimination. 173 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: So how would you say ministry inside impacts the communities 174 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: these individuals eventually return to. 175 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 1: Well, if they know they're going to be getting out, 176 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: you know what are they going to be returning to. 177 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: And so when you equip them, if the work, if 178 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: you sow the seed in their lives while they're there, 179 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: they have the opportunity to grow. And I've shared this 180 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: with guys for many years people I visited, is that 181 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: if they can live their faith inside a correctional facility 182 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: where their life, their faith, their profession is on trial 183 00:11:55,040 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: twenty four to seven, three sixty five, they're being screened, 184 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: they're being watched, looking, somebody's watching for a slip up, 185 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: for a word, an action. But if they can live 186 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: their faith inside there, there's really no reason they can't 187 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: live it out here. And once they were released and 188 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: when they go to their families, then we have a 189 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: different community. We have people that actually we have real 190 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: life cases even within the Salvation Army of individuals who 191 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: have been incarcerated, some for an extended period of time, 192 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: some for significant crimes, but because we believe in second 193 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: chances as God gives. And so they are individuals that 194 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: are contributing. And whether it's the Savage Army, whether it's 195 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: other ministries, they're formally incarcerated individuals, men and women that volunteer, 196 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: have volunteered. Some are in our employment, well screened, go 197 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: through all the process of HR. So don't want to 198 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: scare any in that respect, but there is opportunities for 199 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: people to come back out and make an impact and 200 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: live out their faith that started in there. The worst 201 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,599 Speaker 1: thing that can happen is, oh, I was living my 202 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: faith in here. I was accepted in prison, and they 203 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: come out, the church doesn't accept them, There's no opportunities 204 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: for them. They're going to return. They will basically we 205 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: gravitate to that which is familiar. We will return to 206 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: that which gives us security. And so for them to 207 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: find acceptance, which I think is a very big word 208 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: in many different ways, to accept them, to say you 209 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: still have relevance, you still can contribute. 210 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 2: The Salvation Army's mission doing the most good means helping 211 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: people with material and spiritual needs. You become a part 212 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 2: of this mission every time you give to the Salvation Army. 213 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 2: Visit Salvation Army USA dot org to offer your support. 214 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: You can subscribe to Words of Life on your favorite 215 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: podcast store or visit Salvation armyesoundcast dot org. Join us 216 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: next time for the Salvation Armies Words of Life. These 217 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:17,119 Speaker 2: are the Words. 218 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 3: Are the Words of Life. 219 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for listening to Words of Life. We 220 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 4: want to thank the team at Life Audio for their 221 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 4: partnership with us on the show. Visit lifeaudio dot com 222 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 4: or you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in 223 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 4: their network. They have shows about prayer, Bible studying, parenting, 224 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 4: and more. Thanks again for listening. 225 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: We'll see you next time.