1 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:25,820 Speaker 1: Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of 2 00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,460 Speaker 1: hours of Dennis's lectures courses in classic radio programs. Had 3 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:39,580 Speaker 1: to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to Dennisprager dot com. 4 00:00:39,900 --> 00:00:43,860 Speaker 2: Okay, my friends, I have never, in twenty one years 5 00:00:43,900 --> 00:00:49,380 Speaker 2: of lecturing, spoken publicly on abortion. You may understand why. 6 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:54,780 Speaker 2: In about an hour this may be the last time 7 00:00:55,060 --> 00:01:00,459 Speaker 2: for another twenty one years. Stick a lot of preparation emotionally, 8 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:06,420 Speaker 2: intellectually and morally, and I have good news for you. 9 00:01:06,940 --> 00:01:11,819 Speaker 2: I think I have a I think it will help 10 00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:18,020 Speaker 2: you because I do have I have an answer. I 11 00:01:18,020 --> 00:01:21,260 Speaker 2: don't have the answer that much kutzpook, but I have 12 00:01:21,300 --> 00:01:28,620 Speaker 2: an answer, an answer which will not satisfy either extreme 13 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:35,459 Speaker 2: and on no issue is my self definition of centrist 14 00:01:35,820 --> 00:01:40,780 Speaker 2: passionate centrist as accurate as the issue of abortion. I 15 00:01:40,820 --> 00:01:45,900 Speaker 2: am absolutely equally distant from the right and the left 16 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:50,100 Speaker 2: on this issue. I am the perfect person to talk 17 00:01:50,140 --> 00:01:54,340 Speaker 2: about abortion. I have zip agenda. I don't agree with 18 00:01:54,460 --> 00:02:00,340 Speaker 2: either of them at all. And the irony is when 19 00:02:00,460 --> 00:02:03,900 Speaker 2: I will present to you what those positions are and 20 00:02:03,900 --> 00:02:07,860 Speaker 2: what a middle position could be. You'll, probably most of 21 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:12,459 Speaker 2: you will probably identify with the middle position. Certainly, poll 22 00:02:12,579 --> 00:02:17,620 Speaker 2: after Poland America has revealed that most Americans hold a 23 00:02:17,780 --> 00:02:23,780 Speaker 2: fully centrist position, a position which I will describe in 24 00:02:23,780 --> 00:02:27,179 Speaker 2: a moment. Before that, let me just give you two 25 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:30,980 Speaker 2: book bibliography for your interest. Though there is a huge 26 00:02:31,060 --> 00:02:35,380 Speaker 2: library of books on abortion, there is one short masterpiece 27 00:02:35,540 --> 00:02:38,740 Speaker 2: written by a professor of law at Harvard. This woman 28 00:02:38,780 --> 00:02:44,420 Speaker 2: has written something brilliant, Abortion and Divorce in Western Law. 29 00:02:45,420 --> 00:02:51,820 Speaker 2: It's a Harvard paperback. Quite aside from her what the 30 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:57,100 Speaker 2: evidence she brings and her own I think highly illuminating thoughts, 31 00:02:57,740 --> 00:03:03,540 Speaker 2: it's just fascinating and easily read, okay. The other one 32 00:03:04,020 --> 00:03:09,459 Speaker 2: is scholarly work which is a classic of Judaica Marital relations, 33 00:03:09,620 --> 00:03:14,460 Speaker 2: birth control, and Abortion in Jewish Law by David Feldman. 34 00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:18,220 Speaker 2: It's been out for years. I read it in college, 35 00:03:18,980 --> 00:03:21,220 Speaker 2: so and I don't even think of is new. Then 36 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:25,900 Speaker 2: those are two that I would bring to just for 37 00:03:26,020 --> 00:03:31,620 Speaker 2: your own edification. The two extremes are. The left extreme 38 00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:34,220 Speaker 2: is a woman can do what she wants with her 39 00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:39,460 Speaker 2: own body, to use their own rhetoric. The right extreme 40 00:03:39,740 --> 00:03:48,340 Speaker 2: is that abortion is murdered. The reason that the left 41 00:03:48,380 --> 00:03:51,660 Speaker 2: one I characterize as an extreme is because it reduces 42 00:03:51,700 --> 00:03:57,180 Speaker 2: the fetus to a worthless piece of appendage to a woman. 43 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:00,500 Speaker 2: The statement a woman can do what she wants with 44 00:04:00,540 --> 00:04:06,820 Speaker 2: her own body, which legally is a fact. A woman can, 45 00:04:07,100 --> 00:04:10,180 Speaker 2: after all, mutilate herself. She can cut her fingers off. 46 00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:13,420 Speaker 2: There is no law against the woman cutting her fingers 47 00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:17,620 Speaker 2: off or tattooing her body. To give a more innocuous 48 00:04:17,659 --> 00:04:21,539 Speaker 2: example in and of itself, a woman certainly can do 49 00:04:21,620 --> 00:04:24,979 Speaker 2: what she wants with her own body. The question is 50 00:04:25,140 --> 00:04:28,099 Speaker 2: this her own body, the same way a decayed tooth 51 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:33,619 Speaker 2: is her body. The statement that a woman can do 52 00:04:33,700 --> 00:04:36,419 Speaker 2: what she wants with her own body is equivalent to 53 00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:41,620 Speaker 2: saying that the fetus the unborn. Call it what you wish, 54 00:04:41,980 --> 00:04:44,460 Speaker 2: and I don't have a preference on what term we use. 55 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:51,540 Speaker 2: Is the moral equivalent of a decayed tooth. A woman 56 00:04:51,580 --> 00:04:55,220 Speaker 2: has a decayed tooth, she removes it. The society have 57 00:04:55,300 --> 00:04:56,940 Speaker 2: any right to tell a woman what to do with 58 00:04:56,980 --> 00:04:59,740 Speaker 2: her teeth, of course not so why do we have 59 00:04:59,780 --> 00:05:01,460 Speaker 2: any right to tell a woman what she should do 60 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:05,180 Speaker 2: with her fetus? With her unborn? It's the same. That's 61 00:05:05,220 --> 00:05:08,980 Speaker 2: the way the argument works. When I've debated that point 62 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:12,100 Speaker 2: with people, to the left of me. They've gotten annoyed. 63 00:05:13,460 --> 00:05:17,780 Speaker 2: They get annoyed, but they don't have an answer. That's 64 00:05:17,860 --> 00:05:20,260 Speaker 2: what doing what you want with your own body means, 65 00:05:20,420 --> 00:05:25,940 Speaker 2: means the fetus is identical to a decayed tooth. I 66 00:05:25,980 --> 00:05:30,099 Speaker 2: appreciated when one gentleman who took this position on a 67 00:05:30,140 --> 00:05:34,500 Speaker 2: TV show TV debate that we had, said, you're right that. 68 00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:37,660 Speaker 2: I'll be honest, that's exactly how I view a fetus 69 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:43,460 Speaker 2: like a decayed tooth. Okay, what at least I appreciated 70 00:05:43,500 --> 00:05:46,780 Speaker 2: the intellectual honesty. I don't appreciate the position, but I 71 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:50,700 Speaker 2: appreciated the honesty. What I don't appreciate is someone who 72 00:05:50,740 --> 00:05:52,380 Speaker 2: says a woman can do what she wants with her 73 00:05:52,420 --> 00:05:57,339 Speaker 2: own body. Then you tell the person what that means, 74 00:05:57,460 --> 00:05:59,580 Speaker 2: and they say, no, I don't look at it that way. 75 00:05:59,980 --> 00:06:02,820 Speaker 2: But then don't use that rhetoric. You can't have it 76 00:06:02,860 --> 00:06:07,780 Speaker 2: both ways. And of course logic itself tells you it's 77 00:06:07,820 --> 00:06:10,940 Speaker 2: not possible. It's not your body. It's in your body. 78 00:06:12,900 --> 00:06:16,500 Speaker 2: It's the proof is that if you want the child, 79 00:06:16,620 --> 00:06:19,860 Speaker 2: you would never say it's your body. Nobody goes over 80 00:06:19,900 --> 00:06:22,740 Speaker 2: to a pregnant wie who wants to give birth and says, hey, 81 00:06:22,780 --> 00:06:27,779 Speaker 2: how's your body? Of course not they say how's the child? 82 00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:33,940 Speaker 2: How's the kid? Nobody even says how's the fetus? They 83 00:06:33,940 --> 00:06:37,380 Speaker 2: say how's the child? Or how's the Baby's the baby kicking? 84 00:06:37,940 --> 00:06:40,339 Speaker 2: Did you hear the baby? Did you get a sonogram 85 00:06:40,380 --> 00:06:45,339 Speaker 2: of the baby. We use rhetoric that we like for 86 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:48,180 Speaker 2: our own position. Jerry Folwell made me aware of this 87 00:06:48,580 --> 00:06:51,099 Speaker 2: in a public dialogue. I give him credit for that. 88 00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:54,340 Speaker 2: I always try to remember the sources of good points 89 00:06:54,340 --> 00:06:57,700 Speaker 2: that I hear said. When a woman wants the child, 90 00:06:57,740 --> 00:07:00,540 Speaker 2: she calls it a child. When she doesn't, she calls 91 00:07:00,580 --> 00:07:05,540 Speaker 2: it a fetus. It's the same exact thing, and it's 92 00:07:05,540 --> 00:07:08,060 Speaker 2: the same thing here. It's her body when she doesn't 93 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:10,540 Speaker 2: want it. It's not our body when she does want it. 94 00:07:11,380 --> 00:07:14,220 Speaker 2: So let's not fool ourselves. It's a radical position that 95 00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:19,140 Speaker 2: makes a fetus worthless tissue. You can't get left of 96 00:07:19,180 --> 00:07:22,220 Speaker 2: that position. That's why I call it an extreme left position. 97 00:07:24,020 --> 00:07:28,700 Speaker 2: Pro choice is not an extreme left position. A woman 98 00:07:28,820 --> 00:07:30,860 Speaker 2: can do what she wants with her own body is 99 00:07:31,260 --> 00:07:34,820 Speaker 2: an extreme left position. That's the point that I wanted 100 00:07:34,860 --> 00:07:37,660 Speaker 2: to make clear here. At the other end is the 101 00:07:37,700 --> 00:07:41,900 Speaker 2: other extreme beyond which you can't go. It's murder. It's 102 00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:46,700 Speaker 2: morally equivalent to shooting an adult and killing the person, 103 00:07:47,260 --> 00:07:51,700 Speaker 2: and murdering the person. I have problems with that, for 104 00:07:51,780 --> 00:07:54,420 Speaker 2: reasons that I will come to later. I want to 105 00:07:54,460 --> 00:08:03,220 Speaker 2: start first with the problem of the left position. I 106 00:08:03,300 --> 00:08:08,060 Speaker 2: told you that most people have a middle position. I'd 107 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:10,580 Speaker 2: like to read to you what Pole after Pole has 108 00:08:10,580 --> 00:08:15,820 Speaker 2: demonstrated in America, and I fully support. I am absolutely 109 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:20,060 Speaker 2: with these middle with the rest of Americans. Here is 110 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:23,660 Speaker 2: this Profet, Sir Glendon, this woman writing. It is not 111 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:27,540 Speaker 2: particularly difficult to ascertain where the public stands on abortion, 112 00:08:28,540 --> 00:08:33,780 Speaker 2: since the three principal surveys, National Fertility Studies, Gallop, and 113 00:08:34,020 --> 00:08:39,300 Speaker 2: National Opinion Research Center have exhibited major similarities over many years, 114 00:08:40,340 --> 00:08:43,740 Speaker 2: both before and after Roe versus Wade. That's the famous, 115 00:08:44,300 --> 00:08:48,179 Speaker 2: some will say infamous, nineteen seventy three court decision allowing 116 00:08:48,220 --> 00:08:54,940 Speaker 2: abortion on demand. Majorities consistently around fifty five percent have 117 00:08:55,060 --> 00:09:00,620 Speaker 2: been opposed to its major innovation, elective abortion, and to 118 00:09:00,780 --> 00:09:04,260 Speaker 2: much of the content of Roe and other abortion decisions. 119 00:09:04,660 --> 00:09:09,260 Speaker 2: At the same time, majorities have consistently opposed a total 120 00:09:09,300 --> 00:09:13,380 Speaker 2: ban on abortion and believe that the law should specify 121 00:09:13,460 --> 00:09:18,740 Speaker 2: the circumstances under which it is permissible. They strongly approve 122 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:22,220 Speaker 2: abortion if the woman's health is in danger, and disapprove 123 00:09:22,260 --> 00:09:26,020 Speaker 2: it if it is sought for no other reason than 124 00:09:26,060 --> 00:09:30,460 Speaker 2: that the woman does not want the child. Majorities women 125 00:09:30,940 --> 00:09:36,940 Speaker 2: more than men, disapprove of abortion after the first trimester. 126 00:09:38,060 --> 00:09:42,580 Speaker 2: Majorities believe that human life begins before birth, with men 127 00:09:42,820 --> 00:09:46,340 Speaker 2: more likely to see life beginning later than women do, 128 00:09:48,420 --> 00:09:50,699 Speaker 2: which is going to be a very important part here, 129 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:53,740 Speaker 2: which when I talk about whether or not it's a 130 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:59,980 Speaker 2: women's issue. One other point with regard to the public, 131 00:10:05,940 --> 00:10:10,140 Speaker 2: the way she summarized it is perfect. Although they want 132 00:10:10,179 --> 00:10:15,140 Speaker 2: abortion to be legally available in some circumstances, this is 133 00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:17,820 Speaker 2: most people she's speaking about. They do not wish for 134 00:10:17,940 --> 00:10:22,700 Speaker 2: themselves or want to confer upon others a fundamental right 135 00:10:23,420 --> 00:10:28,940 Speaker 2: to dispose of developing life. Developing life is a new phrase. 136 00:10:28,980 --> 00:10:31,460 Speaker 2: I had never heard it termed that way. I think 137 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:34,300 Speaker 2: that that is about as honest a way of putting it, 138 00:10:34,420 --> 00:10:39,700 Speaker 2: not human and not fetus, but developing life. But anyway, 139 00:10:39,700 --> 00:10:43,940 Speaker 2: that's just a secondary point. Most Americans are in the middle. 140 00:10:44,380 --> 00:10:46,700 Speaker 2: Let me define, let me put it in my terms, 141 00:10:47,260 --> 00:10:49,620 Speaker 2: because this is where I stand, so you'll know what 142 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:56,660 Speaker 2: the outset. When I am asked on the radio, which 143 00:10:56,700 --> 00:10:59,579 Speaker 2: is all the time, what is my stand on abortion? 144 00:11:00,060 --> 00:11:03,660 Speaker 2: My answer is I'm pro choice and anti most abortions, 145 00:11:05,460 --> 00:11:09,780 Speaker 2: which perfectly alienates me from ninety eight percent of the 146 00:11:09,820 --> 00:11:15,660 Speaker 2: people listening who want either one of the side. Now, actually, 147 00:11:15,740 --> 00:11:18,660 Speaker 2: it doesn't alienate me from ninety eight percent. If I'm 148 00:11:18,740 --> 00:11:20,740 Speaker 2: right that the majority agrees with me. It does and 149 00:11:20,780 --> 00:11:23,940 Speaker 2: alienate me from more than fifty percent, but it certainly 150 00:11:23,940 --> 00:11:26,620 Speaker 2: annoys the left and the right. The right want me 151 00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:30,700 Speaker 2: to say I'm pro life or anti abortion, anti choice. 152 00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:33,340 Speaker 2: The others want to hear me say pro choice and 153 00:11:33,460 --> 00:11:38,300 Speaker 2: end the sentence. But I can't end the sentence an effect, 154 00:11:38,420 --> 00:11:41,820 Speaker 2: I am for allowing women to do something that, in 155 00:11:41,900 --> 00:11:48,220 Speaker 2: many cases I believe is immoral. That has been my 156 00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:53,979 Speaker 2: position for years. It's crystallized through well not what's crystallized. 157 00:11:54,460 --> 00:11:57,060 Speaker 2: What has become clear to me through this research for 158 00:11:57,140 --> 00:12:01,300 Speaker 2: this course is that there's a solution. I've always known 159 00:12:01,340 --> 00:12:03,939 Speaker 2: the dilemma that I want the middle of the road done, 160 00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:05,740 Speaker 2: But how do you do the middle of the road. 161 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:09,140 Speaker 2: And if I'd have only known this earlier, I would 162 00:12:09,179 --> 00:12:13,500 Speaker 2: have been way ahead of the game, and unfortunately I didn't. 163 00:12:13,620 --> 00:12:18,300 Speaker 2: I should have read this book ten years ago. In Europe, 164 00:12:18,340 --> 00:12:23,300 Speaker 2: they have a good answer, ladies and gentlemen, I learned, 165 00:12:23,780 --> 00:12:31,340 Speaker 2: which I am either I've either been inordinately ignorant or 166 00:12:31,420 --> 00:12:35,939 Speaker 2: if not, I am shocked at how we in America, 167 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,740 Speaker 2: including people like me who are very well informed, have 168 00:12:39,820 --> 00:12:48,100 Speaker 2: been so uninformed about the European solution to this very dilemma. HM, no, 169 00:12:48,380 --> 00:12:53,140 Speaker 2: it is. It is absolutely remarkable to me. After all, 170 00:12:53,220 --> 00:12:56,780 Speaker 2: my friends, I don't think anybody here could argue that 171 00:12:56,820 --> 00:13:06,660 Speaker 2: the United States is less socially conscious than West Germany, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden. 172 00:13:07,580 --> 00:13:12,620 Speaker 2: If anything, it's Western European countries, especially the northern countries, 173 00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:18,020 Speaker 2: that Americans look to for social legislation that's called progressive. Now, 174 00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:21,579 Speaker 2: let me tell you something. The United States Roe versus 175 00:13:21,620 --> 00:13:28,620 Speaker 2: Wade and since has been by far the most radical 176 00:13:29,100 --> 00:13:33,220 Speaker 2: in terms of abortion rights in the world. There is 177 00:13:33,340 --> 00:13:37,620 Speaker 2: nothing close to Roe v. Wade in the world. The 178 00:13:37,740 --> 00:13:42,380 Speaker 2: United States is alone in the way it treats the 179 00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:47,140 Speaker 2: issue of abortion, the radical way in which it terms 180 00:13:47,260 --> 00:13:49,860 Speaker 2: the entire debate, that it is a woman doing what 181 00:13:49,900 --> 00:13:52,300 Speaker 2: she wants with her own body, that it is a 182 00:13:52,340 --> 00:13:55,740 Speaker 2: matter of privacy, that it is a matter of rights 183 00:13:55,780 --> 00:14:01,900 Speaker 2: to abortion. Those three most common statements are unique to America. 184 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:06,780 Speaker 2: The debate is never phrased that way. Let alone solved 185 00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:12,179 Speaker 2: that way in Western Europe. Why America is alone? I'm 186 00:14:12,220 --> 00:14:15,460 Speaker 2: going to deal with why has it happened that way? 187 00:14:15,179 --> 00:14:17,860 Speaker 2: But that's a secondary issue to the fact that you 188 00:14:17,860 --> 00:14:20,820 Speaker 2: should know this, that we are alone, that there are 189 00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:24,260 Speaker 2: different solutions that are much better. We don't have a solution. 190 00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:30,780 Speaker 2: We have gone to one extreme. You want it, get it? Now? 191 00:14:30,820 --> 00:14:34,860 Speaker 2: What have they done? What has Europe done? France offers 192 00:14:34,940 --> 00:14:40,340 Speaker 2: a model that I'd like to like to read to 193 00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:52,140 Speaker 2: you about. In France, since nineteen seventy five, abortion has 194 00:14:52,180 --> 00:14:55,260 Speaker 2: been available up to the end of the tenth week 195 00:14:55,300 --> 00:15:00,700 Speaker 2: of pregnancy to any woman quote whose condition places her 196 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:07,460 Speaker 2: in a situation of distress unquote. That's the law in 197 00:15:07,540 --> 00:15:13,660 Speaker 2: France for twenty five years. Distress is not defined, and 198 00:15:13,780 --> 00:15:17,820 Speaker 2: the statute makes the woman herself the sole judge of 199 00:15:17,860 --> 00:15:22,780 Speaker 2: whether she is in it. No doctor or bureaucrat needs 200 00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:28,100 Speaker 2: certify anything regarding her state. Thus, this is where Glendon 201 00:15:28,180 --> 00:15:30,980 Speaker 2: is so terrific, because she explains what all this is about. 202 00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:35,420 Speaker 2: If all one is interested in is how easily an 203 00:15:35,420 --> 00:15:38,780 Speaker 2: abortion could be obtained. It would be correct to say that, 204 00:15:38,860 --> 00:15:42,340 Speaker 2: in fact, there is abortion on demand in France in 205 00:15:42,380 --> 00:15:46,900 Speaker 2: the first ten weeks of pregnancy. But so far as 206 00:15:46,940 --> 00:15:52,860 Speaker 2: the way abortion all right, now, hold on, that's part one. 207 00:15:53,020 --> 00:15:55,540 Speaker 2: You say you're in distress, you want an abortion, You 208 00:15:55,580 --> 00:16:01,300 Speaker 2: get an abortion in France. But let me keep on 209 00:16:01,380 --> 00:16:07,220 Speaker 2: reading what it means. The distress requirement may have no 210 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:12,500 Speaker 2: direct sanction, and many people may not take it seriously, 211 00:16:13,380 --> 00:16:19,500 Speaker 2: but it does communicate a message which may enter, along 212 00:16:19,580 --> 00:16:23,980 Speaker 2: with others social into the way in which French men 213 00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:27,660 Speaker 2: and women think and teach their children and each other 214 00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:33,100 Speaker 2: about how one should conduct one's life. I'm going to 215 00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:35,420 Speaker 2: keep reading about this, but I want you to bear 216 00:16:35,460 --> 00:16:40,260 Speaker 2: in mind something here which is fundamental to society. The 217 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:45,500 Speaker 2: purpose of law is not only to prohibit certain acts. 218 00:16:46,460 --> 00:16:52,020 Speaker 2: It is to teach. It conveys the values of a society. 219 00:16:52,940 --> 00:16:57,580 Speaker 2: Let me just move for a minute tangentially here. I 220 00:16:57,820 --> 00:17:02,580 Speaker 2: want capital punishment for murder on the books, primarily as 221 00:17:02,620 --> 00:17:06,619 Speaker 2: an educative tool. It is the only way in which 222 00:17:06,659 --> 00:17:10,540 Speaker 2: society could say how heinous it considers murder. I am 223 00:17:10,619 --> 00:17:15,300 Speaker 2: less interested in executing murderers than I am in having 224 00:17:15,379 --> 00:17:20,139 Speaker 2: capital punishment as the punishment for murder, because punishment is 225 00:17:20,179 --> 00:17:22,699 Speaker 2: the only way in which society can say what it 226 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:27,019 Speaker 2: thinks about something. There is no other way. The only 227 00:17:27,100 --> 00:17:32,260 Speaker 2: other way that could exist is where you have wording 228 00:17:32,580 --> 00:17:39,179 Speaker 2: in laws that allows something but seem to circumscribe it. Now, 229 00:17:39,219 --> 00:17:44,460 Speaker 2: this is, in other words, punishment teaches and allowance teaches. 230 00:17:45,659 --> 00:17:50,499 Speaker 2: Allowance teaches though usually that something's okay, but if you 231 00:17:50,699 --> 00:17:56,100 Speaker 2: phrase it within circumscribed boundaries, you're saying you can do it. 232 00:17:56,659 --> 00:18:02,739 Speaker 2: But what America doesn't have is a butt. That's the 233 00:18:02,820 --> 00:18:07,060 Speaker 2: difference between America and Europe in a nutshell. But I'm 234 00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:08,899 Speaker 2: not going to give you just a nutshell. I'm going 235 00:18:08,979 --> 00:18:15,179 Speaker 2: to continue another statement of principle, and the French law 236 00:18:15,659 --> 00:18:18,019 Speaker 2: is set forth in a later section of the law. 237 00:18:18,820 --> 00:18:26,180 Speaker 2: Quote they termination of pregnancy must, under no circumstances, constitute 238 00:18:26,179 --> 00:18:30,859 Speaker 2: a means of birth control. That's the law, that's the 239 00:18:30,899 --> 00:18:36,419 Speaker 2: statute of France. To this end, continuing the statute, the 240 00:18:36,540 --> 00:18:41,580 Speaker 2: government shall take all the measures necessary to promote information 241 00:18:41,780 --> 00:18:45,300 Speaker 2: on birth control on as wide a scale as possible, 242 00:18:47,859 --> 00:18:52,660 Speaker 2: while making now it's Glendon speaking, while making abortion available. 243 00:18:52,820 --> 00:19:00,059 Speaker 2: In this case, the statute mandates several procedures designed to 244 00:19:00,219 --> 00:19:03,900 Speaker 2: make the pregnant woman aware of and able to choose 245 00:19:04,820 --> 00:19:10,740 Speaker 2: alternatives to abortion. It is part of French law that 246 00:19:10,780 --> 00:19:16,420 Speaker 2: she be made aware of alternatives to abortion. First, the 247 00:19:16,419 --> 00:19:20,819 Speaker 2: physician who receives the woman's initial request for termination of 248 00:19:20,859 --> 00:19:25,459 Speaker 2: her pregnancy must furnish her with a brochure supply by 249 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:31,019 Speaker 2: the government, informing her that the law limits abortion to 250 00:19:31,139 --> 00:19:36,139 Speaker 2: cases of distress. Now, of course you understand the beauty 251 00:19:36,179 --> 00:19:41,299 Speaker 2: of that. If she says, well, okay, I meet those criteria, 252 00:19:41,540 --> 00:19:45,580 Speaker 2: I'm in distress. Fine, Remember she's the only one to 253 00:19:45,699 --> 00:19:51,339 Speaker 2: determine if she's in distress. But we've given her a 254 00:19:51,459 --> 00:19:55,299 Speaker 2: government brochure to tell her that it's got to be 255 00:19:55,540 --> 00:20:02,459 Speaker 2: only if you're in distress. It's purely totally educative. The 256 00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:07,899 Speaker 2: brochure must contain information about the public benefits and programs 257 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,979 Speaker 2: that are guaranteed to mothers and children, and about the 258 00:20:12,060 --> 00:20:16,539 Speaker 2: possibilities of adoption, as well as provide a list of 259 00:20:16,659 --> 00:20:22,220 Speaker 2: organizations capable of giving assistance. That's all in the brochure that, 260 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:24,700 Speaker 2: by French law, must be given to a woman by 261 00:20:24,739 --> 00:20:28,220 Speaker 2: her doctor, he is contravening French law if he does 262 00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:32,779 Speaker 2: not give it to her. Second, the pregnant woman is 263 00:20:32,939 --> 00:20:38,819 Speaker 2: required to have a private, private interview, if possible, with 264 00:20:38,939 --> 00:20:44,139 Speaker 2: her partner, the man who impregnated her, with a government 265 00:20:44,260 --> 00:20:48,419 Speaker 2: approved counseling service. She is required she may not have 266 00:20:48,459 --> 00:20:53,580 Speaker 2: the abortion without this, which in principle is not to 267 00:20:53,659 --> 00:20:58,979 Speaker 2: be located in any facility where abortions are performed. Do 268 00:20:59,060 --> 00:21:01,379 Speaker 2: you see what they're trying to do? Is in it clear? 269 00:21:01,459 --> 00:21:04,540 Speaker 2: It was brilliant what they worked out here, though this 270 00:21:04,540 --> 00:21:09,859 Speaker 2: would offend now beyond anything imaginable national organization for women. 271 00:21:10,619 --> 00:21:15,179 Speaker 2: This consultation, according to the statute, is supposed to furnish 272 00:21:15,260 --> 00:21:20,819 Speaker 2: the woman with assistance and advice quote a, especially with 273 00:21:20,899 --> 00:21:26,259 Speaker 2: a view toward enabling her to keep her child. Third, 274 00:21:27,459 --> 00:21:31,300 Speaker 2: at least one week must he lapse from the time 275 00:21:31,379 --> 00:21:34,979 Speaker 2: of her initial request or an abortion, and at least 276 00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:39,700 Speaker 2: two days from the time of the mandatory consultation before 277 00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:45,180 Speaker 2: the abortion can be performed. After ten weeks, the law 278 00:21:45,219 --> 00:21:53,259 Speaker 2: in France permits only therapeutic abortions. The legislation as a 279 00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:57,659 Speaker 2: whole writes Glendon is pervaded by compassion for pregnant women 280 00:21:58,699 --> 00:22:03,460 Speaker 2: by concern for fetal life, which we do not have. 281 00:22:04,340 --> 00:22:08,420 Speaker 2: There is no concern for fetal life in Roe versus Wade, 282 00:22:08,459 --> 00:22:11,580 Speaker 2: and by expression of the commitment of society as a 283 00:22:11,619 --> 00:22:16,379 Speaker 2: whole to help minimize occasions for tragic choices between them. 284 00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:20,300 Speaker 2: See that's what in Europe, they're mature enough to understand 285 00:22:21,179 --> 00:22:26,460 Speaker 2: abortion presents a tragic choice. We should be mature enough 286 00:22:26,500 --> 00:22:30,019 Speaker 2: to understand that. Of course, the woman has a case. 287 00:22:30,899 --> 00:22:35,180 Speaker 2: There's no humane human being can deny that. But there 288 00:22:35,219 --> 00:22:38,060 Speaker 2: is a case to bring made on behalf of society 289 00:22:38,580 --> 00:22:41,859 Speaker 2: and feed a life too, or developing life, as she 290 00:22:41,939 --> 00:22:45,379 Speaker 2: puts it. But if you say a woman can do 291 00:22:45,419 --> 00:22:48,540 Speaker 2: what she wants with her own body, you immediately dismiss 292 00:22:48,580 --> 00:22:52,619 Speaker 2: the possibility that there is tension. There's no tragic choice. 293 00:22:52,899 --> 00:22:56,859 Speaker 2: Clevic does might decay tooth have any demands that it 294 00:22:56,859 --> 00:23:03,179 Speaker 2: can make on society, of course not. This commitment is 295 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:07,020 Speaker 2: carried out by provision of birth control assistance and by 296 00:23:07,100 --> 00:23:12,619 Speaker 2: comparatively generous financial support for married as well as unwed mothers. 297 00:23:15,419 --> 00:23:19,219 Speaker 2: Contrary to what one constantly hears from both sides of 298 00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:24,140 Speaker 2: the abortion controversy in the United States, a divided society 299 00:23:24,379 --> 00:23:29,819 Speaker 2: can compromise successfully on the abortion issue. It's happened in 300 00:23:29,859 --> 00:23:33,780 Speaker 2: every European country. Only we stand alone, as it were. 301 00:23:35,260 --> 00:23:39,819 Speaker 2: Listen to now the contrast with America. In contrast to 302 00:23:39,899 --> 00:23:43,939 Speaker 2: the current American legal situation, it is worth noting that 303 00:23:43,979 --> 00:23:49,299 Speaker 2: the French statute names the underlying problem as one involving 304 00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:55,220 Speaker 2: human life, not as a conflict involving a woman's individual 305 00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:59,819 Speaker 2: liberty or privacy and a non person. Folks, these are 306 00:23:59,859 --> 00:24:02,539 Speaker 2: the most important things I'll say today. Are they clear? 307 00:24:03,419 --> 00:24:08,939 Speaker 2: The whole debate is framed differently in Europe. Here it 308 00:24:08,979 --> 00:24:13,500 Speaker 2: is purely a matter of her rights, her privacy, her body. 309 00:24:14,379 --> 00:24:19,619 Speaker 2: There it is that plus the issue of another side. 310 00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:22,819 Speaker 2: There is no other side, just as there is no 311 00:24:22,939 --> 00:24:27,180 Speaker 2: other side to the right wing, it's murder. Don't tell 312 00:24:27,219 --> 00:24:29,099 Speaker 2: me if you're raped. Don't tell me if it's incest, 313 00:24:29,179 --> 00:24:31,859 Speaker 2: don't tell me. If it's got a de terrible disease, 314 00:24:32,340 --> 00:24:36,100 Speaker 2: it's murder. You can't murder a human being. If one 315 00:24:36,139 --> 00:24:38,139 Speaker 2: of you is the product of rape, can I murder you? 316 00:24:38,459 --> 00:24:42,180 Speaker 2: Of course not. That's why to a consistent pro lifer, 317 00:24:42,459 --> 00:24:45,980 Speaker 2: it's irrelevant if the woman was raped. It's no more 318 00:24:46,060 --> 00:24:49,300 Speaker 2: relevant if she was raped with regard to abortion than 319 00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:51,619 Speaker 2: if she was raped with regard to you, if you 320 00:24:51,699 --> 00:24:55,740 Speaker 2: are the product of a rape, if you're a full 321 00:24:55,820 --> 00:24:58,539 Speaker 2: human being, what the hell is the difference how you 322 00:24:58,739 --> 00:25:04,139 Speaker 2: were conceived. What matters is you're a human. There is 323 00:25:04,340 --> 00:25:08,659 Speaker 2: no other side to the right. There is no other 324 00:25:08,859 --> 00:25:14,699 Speaker 2: side to the left. That's called extremism. That's the definition 325 00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:19,340 Speaker 2: of it. When you are one hundred percent right, there 326 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:24,660 Speaker 2: is no compe eating value whatsoever. All good values are 327 00:25:24,699 --> 00:25:29,100 Speaker 2: in your corner. There is no competition. It's called extremism. 328 00:25:30,060 --> 00:25:33,899 Speaker 2: But we awe Everyone in this room knows of rightist extremism, 329 00:25:34,260 --> 00:25:39,619 Speaker 2: but we never talk about left extremism. But it's pretty bizarre. 330 00:25:39,699 --> 00:25:42,179 Speaker 2: You can only have one extreme. It doesn't make sense. 331 00:25:43,219 --> 00:25:46,099 Speaker 2: Just logically, it doesn't make sense, and in fact it 332 00:25:46,139 --> 00:25:51,780 Speaker 2: doesn't either. In nineteen eighty three, the US Supreme Court, 333 00:25:51,820 --> 00:25:56,740 Speaker 2: in the Akron case, invalidated a city ordinance which contained 334 00:25:56,780 --> 00:26:00,899 Speaker 2: a number of provisions similar to those in the nineteen 335 00:26:01,060 --> 00:26:08,100 Speaker 2: seventy five French law, including an informed consent provision. That's 336 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,060 Speaker 2: what they have to do in France and Europe. Informed consent. 337 00:26:11,780 --> 00:26:15,139 Speaker 2: You want an abortion, will allow it, but we want 338 00:26:15,139 --> 00:26:18,580 Speaker 2: you to know the options available to you. Struck down 339 00:26:18,739 --> 00:26:22,340 Speaker 2: by the US Supreme Court in the name of liberalism. 340 00:26:23,580 --> 00:26:26,740 Speaker 2: That is the liberal view on abortion. You can't even 341 00:26:26,820 --> 00:26:30,179 Speaker 2: require a woman to know there are options, even when 342 00:26:30,179 --> 00:26:32,099 Speaker 2: you let her do it, and it's only her choice. 343 00:26:34,659 --> 00:26:37,979 Speaker 2: It struck down in the eighty three case, where it 344 00:26:38,060 --> 00:26:42,980 Speaker 2: included an informed consent provision and a mandatory twenty four 345 00:26:43,020 --> 00:26:46,939 Speaker 2: hour waiting period between the execution of the patient's consent 346 00:26:47,060 --> 00:26:53,059 Speaker 2: form and the abortion procedure. Justice Powell correctly observed that 347 00:26:53,179 --> 00:26:56,019 Speaker 2: much of the information required by the city of Akron, 348 00:26:56,020 --> 00:27:00,699 Speaker 2: Ohio was quote, designed not to inform the woman's consent, 349 00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:05,100 Speaker 2: but rather to persuade her to withhold it all together. True, 350 00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:07,780 Speaker 2: but that's what they want to do in France, they 351 00:27:07,820 --> 00:27:14,060 Speaker 2: want to of course, obviously it's not neutral. The decision 352 00:27:14,139 --> 00:27:18,580 Speaker 2: is neutral, but the information, yes, it's given with the 353 00:27:18,659 --> 00:27:23,779 Speaker 2: hope that you won't do it. But the logic of 354 00:27:23,820 --> 00:27:27,099 Speaker 2: the American abortion cases seemed to him to require that 355 00:27:27,179 --> 00:27:32,659 Speaker 2: American states be forbidden to adopt forbidden as France and 356 00:27:32,739 --> 00:27:37,819 Speaker 2: other European countries have done, quote abortion regulations designed to 357 00:27:37,979 --> 00:27:44,139 Speaker 2: influence the woman's informed choice between abortion and childbirth. A 358 00:27:44,219 --> 00:27:48,539 Speaker 2: closely divided Supreme Court reaffirmed this position in nineteen eighty 359 00:27:48,619 --> 00:27:55,259 Speaker 2: six holding unconstitutional the provisions of a Pennsylvania statute that 360 00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:57,859 Speaker 2: would have required a pregnant woman at least twenty four 361 00:27:57,859 --> 00:28:01,500 Speaker 2: hours before consenting to an abortion to be informed about 362 00:28:01,540 --> 00:28:07,219 Speaker 2: the availability of medical assistance and child support, and of 363 00:28:07,219 --> 00:28:11,219 Speaker 2: the fact that printed materials describing the fetus and listing 364 00:28:11,260 --> 00:28:15,379 Speaker 2: agencies ready to help with alternatives to abortion were available 365 00:28:15,419 --> 00:28:20,619 Speaker 2: for her inspection turned down that that was what Pennas 366 00:28:20,659 --> 00:28:24,939 Speaker 2: Slovanias argued for, and the US Supreme Court turned it down. 367 00:28:30,899 --> 00:28:35,260 Speaker 2: Let me uh, let me tell you of another difference 368 00:28:35,260 --> 00:28:39,459 Speaker 2: between Europe and US. In Europe, they try to discourage 369 00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:45,620 Speaker 2: abortion from becoming routine by example, for example, by discouraging 370 00:28:45,780 --> 00:28:51,900 Speaker 2: establishment of abortion clinics. In Europe, it is done in hospitals, 371 00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:56,979 Speaker 2: and they mandate that no more than a certain percentage 372 00:28:57,219 --> 00:29:02,499 Speaker 2: of procedures may be abortions, so that it doesn't become routinized, 373 00:29:02,540 --> 00:29:09,140 Speaker 2: a place removed from normal therapeutic functioning, normal medical functioning, 374 00:29:09,459 --> 00:29:14,100 Speaker 2: where doctors just don't spend their lives. You use the verb, 375 00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:19,180 Speaker 2: all right, We'll use the most neutral verb, aborting, aborting 376 00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:24,059 Speaker 2: potential life, abording fetuses. What they do in Europe is 377 00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:29,740 Speaker 2: a perfect compromise and I am rarely in the mood 378 00:29:29,739 --> 00:29:34,900 Speaker 2: of extolling Europe's values, but here they have hit it beautifully. 379 00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:39,660 Speaker 2: They tick off everybody. The right wing is terribly annoyed 380 00:29:39,820 --> 00:29:43,420 Speaker 2: because any woman wants an abortion, she gets it. The 381 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:45,819 Speaker 2: left wing is terribly annoyed because they fill her with 382 00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:50,220 Speaker 2: this propaganda that there are actually options available to her, 383 00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:53,739 Speaker 2: and society wants you to state that you're in distress. 384 00:29:55,860 --> 00:29:58,700 Speaker 2: So that's the perfect thing. When you've ticked off the 385 00:29:58,780 --> 00:30:02,620 Speaker 2: left and right, you got something good. Something's working, and 386 00:30:02,739 --> 00:30:05,860 Speaker 2: it works and there's peace. You don't have any of 387 00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:08,700 Speaker 2: the battles in Europe that you have in America over abortion. 388 00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:12,979 Speaker 2: People live with these laws in the vast majority of 389 00:30:13,060 --> 00:30:18,500 Speaker 2: cases with basic contentment, understanding that you have to compromise 390 00:30:18,620 --> 00:30:22,420 Speaker 2: on a very difficult issue. That's not the case in 391 00:30:22,459 --> 00:30:28,340 Speaker 2: this country. Let me just cite to you German law 392 00:30:29,820 --> 00:30:36,779 Speaker 2: according to the German Constitution on this issue. Quote, the 393 00:30:36,979 --> 00:30:42,700 Speaker 2: false impression must be avoided that termination of pregnancy involves 394 00:30:42,739 --> 00:30:46,459 Speaker 2: the same social significance as say, a trip to the 395 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:51,100 Speaker 2: physician for the purpose of healing an illness. That is 396 00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:53,979 Speaker 2: the way German law would put it. That's the intent there. 397 00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:56,940 Speaker 2: It's not the same. An abortion is not the same 398 00:30:57,260 --> 00:31:04,620 Speaker 2: as going to your doctor for a flu shot. It's different. Now, 399 00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:08,940 Speaker 2: there is one other thing to be mentioned, and then 400 00:31:08,940 --> 00:31:11,059 Speaker 2: I want to deal with what is really the issue 401 00:31:11,060 --> 00:31:18,459 Speaker 2: in America for the left, and that is viability abortion 402 00:31:18,660 --> 00:31:23,020 Speaker 2: without the need for any reason. That's what we have 403 00:31:23,300 --> 00:31:27,499 Speaker 2: in the US and five European countries. This is the 404 00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:30,140 Speaker 2: most liberal way of asking for abortion. I don't need 405 00:31:30,140 --> 00:31:31,940 Speaker 2: to give you a reason. I say I'm in distress, 406 00:31:32,219 --> 00:31:34,420 Speaker 2: and in America, I don't have to say anything. I 407 00:31:34,420 --> 00:31:37,219 Speaker 2: could say, I'm planning a trip to Europe and this 408 00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:42,940 Speaker 2: is an unsuitable pregnancy, which is exactly exactly what the 409 00:31:42,979 --> 00:31:46,340 Speaker 2: obgyn who delivered my son said to me when I 410 00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:49,700 Speaker 2: asked him about this when we first met. This is 411 00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:53,300 Speaker 2: a Beverly Hills obstetrician, and I asked him how many 412 00:31:53,340 --> 00:31:55,980 Speaker 2: of the women who come to you were pregnant seek 413 00:31:56,020 --> 00:32:00,540 Speaker 2: an abortion. He said fifty percent. I said, of them, 414 00:32:00,660 --> 00:32:05,020 Speaker 2: what percentage is married? Said fifty percent. So I said, 415 00:32:05,020 --> 00:32:07,780 Speaker 2: in other words, one out of every four pregnant women 416 00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:12,420 Speaker 2: who comes to you is married and affluent and wants 417 00:32:12,420 --> 00:32:17,100 Speaker 2: an abortion. He said that's right. I said, well, would 418 00:32:17,140 --> 00:32:19,779 Speaker 2: you be so forthcoming with me, it said, tell me, 419 00:32:20,060 --> 00:32:22,780 Speaker 2: why is it sure? Just the other week, a woman 420 00:32:22,860 --> 00:32:25,180 Speaker 2: was explaining to me that she and her husband had 421 00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:27,860 Speaker 2: been planning a trip to Europe for some time and 422 00:32:27,940 --> 00:32:31,820 Speaker 2: it was a poor time to get pregnant. Another woman 423 00:32:31,940 --> 00:32:35,100 Speaker 2: had recently started a new business and also felt that 424 00:32:35,140 --> 00:32:38,700 Speaker 2: it was just a bad time to get pregnant in America. 425 00:32:38,860 --> 00:32:41,539 Speaker 2: Doesn't matter. You can do it because you read in 426 00:32:41,580 --> 00:32:44,620 Speaker 2: your horoscope that it was better to have a sagittarius 427 00:32:45,180 --> 00:32:48,860 Speaker 2: than a Leo. And it is perfectly okay because nobody 428 00:32:48,900 --> 00:32:52,019 Speaker 2: asks the reason. That's the way it is in the US, 429 00:32:52,140 --> 00:32:54,340 Speaker 2: and that is the way it is in five European countries. 430 00:32:54,820 --> 00:33:00,300 Speaker 2: But the US is alone in the world in forbidding 431 00:33:00,459 --> 00:33:06,860 Speaker 2: any state regulation until viability, which roe versus Wade defined 432 00:33:06,940 --> 00:33:12,380 Speaker 2: is between twenty four and forty eight weeks. Even after viability, 433 00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:15,540 Speaker 2: it does not require you know what viability is when 434 00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:17,300 Speaker 2: it could live on its own outside of the mother. 435 00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:23,380 Speaker 2: Even after viability, it does not require regulation to protect 436 00:33:23,420 --> 00:33:26,979 Speaker 2: the fetus. A woman can still have an abortion for 437 00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:33,100 Speaker 2: health reasons, and health is interpreted totally loosely. Again, the 438 00:33:33,340 --> 00:33:37,540 Speaker 2: US is alone here. Four of the five other five 439 00:33:37,660 --> 00:33:42,940 Speaker 2: countries all forbid abortions after the first trimester, except for 440 00:33:43,020 --> 00:33:48,460 Speaker 2: serious reasons unquote. Even the fifth Sweden places the cutoff 441 00:33:48,540 --> 00:33:53,660 Speaker 2: point for elective abortions at eighteen weeks. After eighteen weeks, 442 00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:57,739 Speaker 2: permission quote can only be given by the National Board 443 00:33:57,780 --> 00:34:01,780 Speaker 2: of Health and Welfare, and then only if there are 444 00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:08,299 Speaker 2: quote substantial grounds unquote. The Swedish statute specifically provides that 445 00:34:08,380 --> 00:34:12,140 Speaker 2: abortions may not be performed at all if the fetus 446 00:34:12,219 --> 00:34:16,980 Speaker 2: is likely to be viable, except in the most threatening 447 00:34:17,140 --> 00:34:23,420 Speaker 2: circumstances to the woman's health at all. And that's Sweden, 448 00:34:23,700 --> 00:34:27,460 Speaker 2: the most second most liberal place on earth in regard 449 00:34:27,460 --> 00:34:31,580 Speaker 2: to abortion laws. If it could be viable, and ladies 450 00:34:31,580 --> 00:34:35,140 Speaker 2: and gentlemen, viable is getting lower and lower with medical science, 451 00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:40,580 Speaker 2: the viable time changes. Who knows what viable will be 452 00:34:40,620 --> 00:34:46,100 Speaker 2: twenty years from now. Who knows? Then it presents a 453 00:34:46,219 --> 00:34:52,859 Speaker 2: very real problem Pennsylvania's efforts to assure that viable fetuses 454 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:57,020 Speaker 2: be aborted alive. That's all they wanted in Pennsylvania. They asked, 455 00:34:57,819 --> 00:35:00,379 Speaker 2: they made a law, if it all right, will give 456 00:35:00,420 --> 00:35:03,540 Speaker 2: you your abortion. But we want if it could be viable, 457 00:35:03,580 --> 00:35:06,019 Speaker 2: we'd like it to take it out alive. The US 458 00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:11,140 Speaker 2: Supreme Court twice knocked it out. Now, how do you 459 00:35:11,180 --> 00:35:14,939 Speaker 2: explain that the woman is getting what she wants a 460 00:35:15,020 --> 00:35:19,099 Speaker 2: terminated pregnancy, But why does she want it dead? Help 461 00:35:19,219 --> 00:35:22,739 Speaker 2: understand that we're talking about a lot more ear than 462 00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:29,459 Speaker 2: just abortion. Chief Justice Burger in nineteen eighty six Roe 463 00:35:29,540 --> 00:35:34,140 Speaker 2: versus Wade's concern for protecting viable life is quote mere 464 00:35:34,580 --> 00:35:39,859 Speaker 2: shallow rhetoric. In Germany, abortions allowed after the twelfth week 465 00:35:40,020 --> 00:35:43,940 Speaker 2: only with certification of grave danger to the woman or 466 00:35:44,219 --> 00:35:48,339 Speaker 2: likelihood that serious and irreversible damage had already been done 467 00:35:48,339 --> 00:35:58,299 Speaker 2: to the fetus. Now, in reading all of this, in 468 00:35:58,339 --> 00:36:04,379 Speaker 2: preparing tonight's course, I came to realize something. I came 469 00:36:04,460 --> 00:36:13,140 Speaker 2: to realize that the extreme liberal view on abortion has 470 00:36:13,219 --> 00:36:16,740 Speaker 2: a lot more to do with just letting a woman 471 00:36:17,060 --> 00:36:20,700 Speaker 2: have abortions. If that's all they wanted, they would have 472 00:36:20,739 --> 00:36:24,859 Speaker 2: adopted the European model, It lets women have abortions. I 473 00:36:24,980 --> 00:36:28,379 Speaker 2: think that there are other things concerned, and here is 474 00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:34,660 Speaker 2: one of them. This is this is my belief. Liberal 475 00:36:34,779 --> 00:36:39,660 Speaker 2: legislation is not intent only on allowing abortion, but on 476 00:36:39,779 --> 00:36:46,700 Speaker 2: removing any guilt, any difficulty, any obstacle, and learning about alternatives. 477 00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:51,379 Speaker 2: It is not only pro choice. And this hit me 478 00:36:51,739 --> 00:36:56,460 Speaker 2: only today after all of this stuff. It's pro abortion. 479 00:36:58,540 --> 00:37:02,779 Speaker 2: I never said that before this minute in my life. 480 00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:12,940 Speaker 2: I'm pro choice, anti abortion. The National Association for Abortion 481 00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:22,859 Speaker 2: Rights League NARRAAL, the National Organization for Women Planned Parenthood, 482 00:37:23,380 --> 00:37:30,259 Speaker 2: the ACLU Reproductive Rights Division, I now realize, are pro abortion. 483 00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:34,820 Speaker 2: They're not just pro choice. If your pro choice Europe 484 00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:40,540 Speaker 2: is perfect, if your pro abortion Europe is terrible because 485 00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:43,700 Speaker 2: it may induce guilt and it may give you alternatives. 486 00:37:45,100 --> 00:37:48,779 Speaker 2: And that is clearly what the US liberal justices have 487 00:37:48,859 --> 00:37:53,660 Speaker 2: not wanted, even to the point of removing the fetus alive. 488 00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:59,899 Speaker 2: That's incredible. A woman who wants to terminate pregnancy should 489 00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:03,100 Speaker 2: terminate pregnancy. What business is it hers? What happens to it? 490 00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:05,299 Speaker 2: Or is it still part of her body when it's 491 00:38:05,299 --> 00:38:08,379 Speaker 2: out of her body? Which is really remarkable. You then 492 00:38:08,420 --> 00:38:14,100 Speaker 2: reach a metaphysical plane that transcends what I can rationally appreciate. 493 00:38:15,739 --> 00:38:24,060 Speaker 2: That is what hit me. Secondly, Roe versus Wade, and 494 00:38:24,140 --> 00:38:29,580 Speaker 2: this is now her who is a feminist professor Glendon 495 00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:35,459 Speaker 2: her words, roe Versus Wade embodies a view of society 496 00:38:36,420 --> 00:38:44,180 Speaker 2: as a collection of separate, autonomous individuals. The German decision 497 00:38:45,020 --> 00:38:49,980 Speaker 2: which I read to you, emphasizes the connections among the 498 00:38:50,020 --> 00:38:57,380 Speaker 2: women developing life and the larger community. But we don't. 499 00:38:58,700 --> 00:39:02,180 Speaker 2: There is no relationship between the woman developing life and 500 00:39:02,219 --> 00:39:06,260 Speaker 2: the larger community. It's between the woman and herself. That's 501 00:39:06,299 --> 00:39:09,939 Speaker 2: all we think about. As she writes, it's a view 502 00:39:09,980 --> 00:39:12,980 Speaker 2: of society, which is the classical liberal view. In America 503 00:39:13,020 --> 00:39:21,980 Speaker 2: today a collection of separate, autonomous individuals. Society has no claims, 504 00:39:22,020 --> 00:39:30,980 Speaker 2: only individuals have claims. Justice Douglas, the great liberal justice, 505 00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:36,979 Speaker 2: in his opinion on Roe versus Wade, quote, childbirth may 506 00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:43,140 Speaker 2: deprive a woman of her preferred lifestyle. That is terminology 507 00:39:43,259 --> 00:39:49,900 Speaker 2: you would never hear from a justice in Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, France, 508 00:39:50,540 --> 00:39:54,060 Speaker 2: anywhere in the most enlightened places we compare ourselves to 509 00:39:57,180 --> 00:40:03,620 Speaker 2: that childbirth will just somehow hamper her quote preferred lifestyle. 510 00:40:04,180 --> 00:40:07,980 Speaker 2: And this from one of the most distinguished Supreme Court 511 00:40:08,140 --> 00:40:12,379 Speaker 2: justices of the twentieth century, at least in the In 512 00:40:12,420 --> 00:40:22,060 Speaker 2: the liberal view, the pro choice liberal notion is that 513 00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:26,940 Speaker 2: society does not really exist. America these are my words. 514 00:40:26,980 --> 00:40:32,060 Speaker 2: America is a geographical but not culture based or value 515 00:40:32,100 --> 00:40:38,580 Speaker 2: based society it is a geographical locale wherein individuals with 516 00:40:38,779 --> 00:40:43,660 Speaker 2: no duty towards the society each live. Thus the state 517 00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:47,980 Speaker 2: the society can have no interest in abortion, only the 518 00:40:48,060 --> 00:40:52,980 Speaker 2: pregnant woman can. Abortion is not a serious matter for 519 00:40:53,140 --> 00:41:01,660 Speaker 2: society in America. Those are what underlie the reasonings I 520 00:41:01,779 --> 00:41:06,260 Speaker 2: believe in the liberal extreme position, which is not merely 521 00:41:06,339 --> 00:41:13,140 Speaker 2: pro choice, but an effect anti any alternative to choosing abortion. 522 00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:21,140 Speaker 2: It is frequently couched as a woman's rights issue. I 523 00:41:21,259 --> 00:41:28,620 Speaker 2: thought so till I did the research. It's a lie. 524 00:41:28,819 --> 00:41:32,859 Speaker 2: I'll give you three reasons. And this is as new 525 00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:35,739 Speaker 2: to me practically as new to me as it is 526 00:41:35,779 --> 00:41:39,980 Speaker 2: to you. I didn't know these things. I thank you 527 00:41:40,060 --> 00:41:44,340 Speaker 2: for taking this class to force me to coalesce thinking 528 00:41:44,380 --> 00:41:47,660 Speaker 2: on this issue. My eyes have been opened like no 529 00:41:47,779 --> 00:41:50,660 Speaker 2: other area I recall. In the last five years, on 530 00:41:50,660 --> 00:41:53,940 Speaker 2: one given issue, I too thought, well, look, it's a 531 00:41:54,020 --> 00:41:56,340 Speaker 2: pres it's a women's issue. I mean, it's always shown 532 00:41:56,339 --> 00:41:59,259 Speaker 2: as a women's issue. Let me give you three reasons 533 00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:06,100 Speaker 2: why it's not a women's issue. First, by definition, it 534 00:42:06,219 --> 00:42:12,739 Speaker 2: is a woman's issue only to those who ascribe absolutely 535 00:42:12,859 --> 00:42:17,419 Speaker 2: no value to the fetus, absolutely no value to societal 536 00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:22,939 Speaker 2: interest in preserving developing life, and absolutely no value to 537 00:42:23,020 --> 00:42:26,540 Speaker 2: the father's role in conceiving the fetus. It's only a 538 00:42:26,580 --> 00:42:30,819 Speaker 2: women's issue if you accept the original argument that it's 539 00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:35,780 Speaker 2: only the woman who matters. That's what why I feel 540 00:42:35,819 --> 00:42:38,500 Speaker 2: I want to kick myself. I fell into the trap 541 00:42:38,779 --> 00:42:44,419 Speaker 2: of tautology. It's a woman's issue only if you say 542 00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:49,339 Speaker 2: that only the woman matters. The moment you say it 543 00:42:49,460 --> 00:42:53,339 Speaker 2: matters a little bit, just a teen c inc beanc bit. 544 00:42:53,420 --> 00:42:55,819 Speaker 2: That was to my son, because he's falling asleep. I 545 00:42:55,819 --> 00:43:01,499 Speaker 2: wanted him to get the teen c eency bit. If 546 00:43:01,540 --> 00:43:07,020 Speaker 2: the fetus matters just one percent, it is only ninety 547 00:43:07,140 --> 00:43:12,980 Speaker 2: nine percent a woman's issue. If society matters just one percent, 548 00:43:13,940 --> 00:43:17,819 Speaker 2: it's down to ninety eight percent a woman's issue. If 549 00:43:17,819 --> 00:43:22,340 Speaker 2: the conceiving father matters one percent, it's down to ninety 550 00:43:22,420 --> 00:43:28,180 Speaker 2: seven percent. That's why nothing else can ever matter, and 551 00:43:28,259 --> 00:43:32,060 Speaker 2: that is why radical feminists are so strong on the issue. 552 00:43:32,540 --> 00:43:37,100 Speaker 2: It now makes sense to me because only when you 553 00:43:37,299 --> 00:43:40,900 Speaker 2: formulate it that way can you argue it's a woman's issue. 554 00:43:41,259 --> 00:43:43,700 Speaker 2: So you have to formulate it that way, or it 555 00:43:43,779 --> 00:43:47,500 Speaker 2: ceases to be a woman's issue the moment you allow 556 00:43:47,540 --> 00:43:52,299 Speaker 2: that there are competing tensions moral values, that it isn't 557 00:43:52,339 --> 00:43:58,339 Speaker 2: only the woman involved. It ceases to be a woman's issue. 558 00:43:58,420 --> 00:44:05,500 Speaker 2: It is partially a woman's issue. Second, which I knew 559 00:44:05,540 --> 00:44:08,939 Speaker 2: the whole time, but it just it never it's the ever. 560 00:44:09,060 --> 00:44:11,700 Speaker 2: You know, it's not happened with you, you know something, 561 00:44:11,739 --> 00:44:17,939 Speaker 2: but it never falls into place. More women than men 562 00:44:18,020 --> 00:44:23,219 Speaker 2: oppose abortion in the United States. That's always been that way. 563 00:44:23,460 --> 00:44:27,259 Speaker 2: It'll probably always be that way. More women than men 564 00:44:27,739 --> 00:44:32,860 Speaker 2: approved the German government's decision of some limitations on abortion. 565 00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:38,540 Speaker 2: The strongest supporters of abortion prior to Row versus Wade 566 00:44:38,859 --> 00:44:47,100 Speaker 2: were affluent white men, according to demographer Judith Blake. She 567 00:44:47,299 --> 00:44:50,979 Speaker 2: explains why it was affluent white men who were the 568 00:44:51,100 --> 00:44:59,100 Speaker 2: vanguard of pro abortion rights. This is because abortion frees 569 00:44:59,219 --> 00:45:03,180 Speaker 2: men from any responsibility for the child. I had never 570 00:45:03,219 --> 00:45:09,379 Speaker 2: thought of that that's a woman's issue, that it would 571 00:45:09,420 --> 00:45:15,100 Speaker 2: strike me would concern women, whereas men's responsibility for conceiving 572 00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:19,859 Speaker 2: this No way, the men who conceive it have a 573 00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:23,060 Speaker 2: vested injury. And who is doing this the most who 574 00:45:23,060 --> 00:45:26,939 Speaker 2: would get saddled? The most affluent white men. You can 575 00:45:26,940 --> 00:45:30,700 Speaker 2: come to them for paternity suits, So of course they 576 00:45:30,739 --> 00:45:36,419 Speaker 2: were the most passionately feminist, no skin off their back. 577 00:45:36,700 --> 00:45:41,620 Speaker 2: It's like Playboy always gives to feminist foundations. You know, 578 00:45:41,819 --> 00:45:45,259 Speaker 2: the leader in making women into sex objects then gives 579 00:45:45,299 --> 00:45:53,460 Speaker 2: part of the prophets to feminist organizations. Of course. Carol 580 00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:56,459 Speaker 2: Gilligan one of the leading feminist thinkers in America who's 581 00:45:56,500 --> 00:46:00,100 Speaker 2: also at Harvard. You should read her book in a 582 00:46:00,140 --> 00:46:03,860 Speaker 2: different voice. It's what it's called. She explains the different 583 00:46:03,859 --> 00:46:07,500 Speaker 2: way women see the world is. It is truly a 584 00:46:07,540 --> 00:46:14,660 Speaker 2: magnum opus in a different voice, Carol Gilligan, many of 585 00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:19,859 Speaker 2: the women in her chapter on abortion quote stated that 586 00:46:19,900 --> 00:46:24,140 Speaker 2: one of the reason they were seeking abortions was because 587 00:46:24,180 --> 00:46:26,939 Speaker 2: the men in their lives were unwilling to give them 588 00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:32,299 Speaker 2: moral and material support in continuing with pregnancy and childbirth. 589 00:46:35,940 --> 00:46:43,860 Speaker 2: Third Roe, this is now, This is now, Professor Mary 590 00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:50,859 Speaker 2: Ann Glendon, this is so. It's so intelligent. I just 591 00:46:50,940 --> 00:46:55,379 Speaker 2: have the greatest respect for her. Roe versus Weighed, with 592 00:46:55,460 --> 00:47:00,420 Speaker 2: its emphasis on the separateness, the rights and the self 593 00:47:00,460 --> 00:47:06,500 Speaker 2: determination of individual women, looks like a very masculine decision, 594 00:47:07,819 --> 00:47:12,979 Speaker 2: while the West German Constitutional Court's opinion, with its emphasis 595 00:47:13,020 --> 00:47:17,299 Speaker 2: on responsibility for others and on the social bonds of 596 00:47:17,299 --> 00:47:24,819 Speaker 2: the community as well as individual rights, seems more reflective 597 00:47:24,859 --> 00:47:32,859 Speaker 2: of feminine values, and women instinctively have that sense and 598 00:47:33,020 --> 00:47:38,219 Speaker 2: instinctively their gut is which has a sense of bonding, 599 00:47:39,219 --> 00:47:43,180 Speaker 2: is going to oppose abortion on demand more than men do, 600 00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:49,739 Speaker 2: who think more autonomously. What's good for me? What are 601 00:47:49,819 --> 00:47:54,140 Speaker 2: my rights? I don't care about bonding. I care about 602 00:47:54,140 --> 00:48:00,980 Speaker 2: my rights. Those are three reasons I think rather powerful ones. 603 00:48:01,540 --> 00:48:04,620 Speaker 2: Why it's not a women's issue, it's framed that way 604 00:48:04,660 --> 00:48:08,859 Speaker 2: to get more support. Of course it will be is 605 00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:13,019 Speaker 2: because a woman then feels disloyal to her gender, and 606 00:48:13,140 --> 00:48:17,259 Speaker 2: women asxes me and men are cowed into submission lest 607 00:48:17,299 --> 00:48:21,060 Speaker 2: they look like sexists. That's another reason I am convinced 608 00:48:21,100 --> 00:48:24,060 Speaker 2: that men jump on the bandwagon. The last thing a 609 00:48:24,100 --> 00:48:27,940 Speaker 2: man wants to be called, especially upper middle class white males, 610 00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:32,739 Speaker 2: is sexist. And what does it cost them? Yeah, Hey, 611 00:48:32,779 --> 00:48:37,060 Speaker 2: I'm for abortion, I love women, I'm for abortion. We 612 00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:47,980 Speaker 2: make him pregnant and then we're for it. So I 613 00:48:48,060 --> 00:48:54,580 Speaker 2: come to these conclusions. The middle road is the European model. 614 00:48:55,339 --> 00:48:57,859 Speaker 2: Don't I tell you. We don't even have to do 615 00:48:57,940 --> 00:49:01,779 Speaker 2: anything but take a get a fax machine and have 616 00:49:01,900 --> 00:49:05,100 Speaker 2: the French send over the law the more I have 617 00:49:05,140 --> 00:49:08,620 Speaker 2: read it, or the West German now the Germans, it 618 00:49:08,660 --> 00:49:14,299 Speaker 2: doesn't matter, even the Swedes. Can you imagine adopting the 619 00:49:14,339 --> 00:49:19,339 Speaker 2: Swedish social model and becoming more conservative, But that is 620 00:49:19,420 --> 00:49:22,739 Speaker 2: exactly what we would be doing. We are on the 621 00:49:22,859 --> 00:49:30,299 Speaker 2: radical fringes in the world on this issue. Not of 622 00:49:30,380 --> 00:49:32,899 Speaker 2: mind being alone if you're right, but I don't think 623 00:49:32,940 --> 00:49:38,180 Speaker 2: we're right. There are competing values at work here. The 624 00:49:38,219 --> 00:49:46,420 Speaker 2: solution is to have those laws, because while ninety percent 625 00:49:46,540 --> 00:49:51,700 Speaker 2: of American abortions are in the first trimester, you would 626 00:49:51,700 --> 00:49:55,180 Speaker 2: at least have the ability of the law to educate, 627 00:49:56,739 --> 00:50:00,180 Speaker 2: let the woman who goes in know that it isn't 628 00:50:00,219 --> 00:50:04,379 Speaker 2: the removal of a tooth. And maybe there will be 629 00:50:04,460 --> 00:50:07,700 Speaker 2: some who will read the little brochure and say, okay, 630 00:50:08,940 --> 00:50:14,019 Speaker 2: I'll give it up for adoption, or even okay, I'll 631 00:50:14,060 --> 00:50:20,980 Speaker 2: have it now. That involves society taking care of the 632 00:50:21,020 --> 00:50:24,059 Speaker 2: woman and the child afterwards. Here the left has very 633 00:50:24,180 --> 00:50:30,060 Speaker 2: valid arguments, and this centrist is very in favor of, 634 00:50:30,140 --> 00:50:37,099 Speaker 2: for example, paid maternity leave. Absolutely, if we're gonna tell 635 00:50:37,140 --> 00:50:40,820 Speaker 2: women don't abort, we got to help them out. Of course, 636 00:50:40,859 --> 00:50:47,580 Speaker 2: that's true. That is part of it. Now you run 637 00:50:47,580 --> 00:50:51,739 Speaker 2: into a severe problem that Sweden, France, Germany don't have 638 00:50:52,380 --> 00:50:57,899 Speaker 2: with the inner city abortion, inner city berths, wherein you 639 00:50:58,140 --> 00:51:01,819 Speaker 2: have people who can take care of kids, and who 640 00:51:01,859 --> 00:51:05,379 Speaker 2: if you support, we'll have more kids who have no fathers. 641 00:51:06,060 --> 00:51:09,340 Speaker 2: That's a problem. That's a serious problem, which is beyond 642 00:51:09,540 --> 00:51:12,940 Speaker 2: the purview of this session. And I recognize it. I 643 00:51:13,339 --> 00:51:16,459 Speaker 2: don't want to make it sound like I have a panacea, 644 00:51:17,460 --> 00:51:20,500 Speaker 2: but it is to say that in principle, of course, 645 00:51:21,460 --> 00:51:24,100 Speaker 2: we have an obligation as a society to the woman 646 00:51:24,140 --> 00:51:27,819 Speaker 2: that we're asking not to abort, while perfectly giving her 647 00:51:27,859 --> 00:51:30,260 Speaker 2: the right to. And I remain as I was before, 648 00:51:30,940 --> 00:51:34,100 Speaker 2: pro your choice, even if I don't like the choice 649 00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:39,580 Speaker 2: you will make in many instances. Now, why is the 650 00:51:39,660 --> 00:51:47,500 Speaker 2: right wrong? The right argument is that it's murder, and 651 00:51:47,540 --> 00:51:55,259 Speaker 2: it is overwhelmingly held by religious Christians. The reason is 652 00:51:56,660 --> 00:52:01,779 Speaker 2: that in Catholicism and among fundamentalist Protestants it is held 653 00:52:01,819 --> 00:52:05,180 Speaker 2: to be murder, or at least it is among Catholics, 654 00:52:06,299 --> 00:52:10,700 Speaker 2: and I guess among some fundamentalist Protestants. Well not, I 655 00:52:10,739 --> 00:52:18,180 Speaker 2: guess it is here. I have a problem on two grounds. 656 00:52:18,180 --> 00:52:21,259 Speaker 2: One is theological and one is logical. Let me start 657 00:52:21,299 --> 00:52:25,580 Speaker 2: with the logical and any of you have heard me 658 00:52:25,660 --> 00:52:30,340 Speaker 2: debate this issue with with with the right wing Christians 659 00:52:30,339 --> 00:52:33,820 Speaker 2: have called my show, have heard what I have done? 660 00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:37,100 Speaker 2: Say do you really believe it's murder? Or do you 661 00:52:37,219 --> 00:52:40,259 Speaker 2: use the term to make people realize how bad you 662 00:52:40,299 --> 00:52:43,700 Speaker 2: think it is? And they usually say, I really believe 663 00:52:43,700 --> 00:52:47,779 Speaker 2: it's murder. So then I say, you mean that literally? 664 00:52:47,859 --> 00:52:51,020 Speaker 2: Before I ask you the next question. I got enough. 665 00:52:51,219 --> 00:52:54,979 Speaker 2: Do you really mean it literally or do you use 666 00:52:55,020 --> 00:52:59,979 Speaker 2: it as hyperbole for dramatic effect. No, it's literal. It's 667 00:52:59,980 --> 00:53:03,419 Speaker 2: a life, Dennis, There's no difference. So the big deal 668 00:53:03,460 --> 00:53:07,700 Speaker 2: it's in the womb, Okay, I say, then, then let 669 00:53:07,700 --> 00:53:13,339 Speaker 2: me ask you something. Should doctors who perform abortions be executed? 670 00:53:16,859 --> 00:53:22,540 Speaker 2: I'm for capital punishment. If you're for capital punish you 671 00:53:22,779 --> 00:53:27,739 Speaker 2: must hold that these are mass murderers equivalent to Eifman 672 00:53:29,859 --> 00:53:35,819 Speaker 2: personally murdering tens of thousands of people. You believe that, 673 00:53:36,660 --> 00:53:39,779 Speaker 2: you believe they're Eichman, you believe they deserve to be 674 00:53:40,140 --> 00:53:43,140 Speaker 2: or you don't believe in capital punishment in prison for 675 00:53:43,180 --> 00:53:45,660 Speaker 2: the rest of their lives, with the key thrown away 676 00:53:46,060 --> 00:53:50,460 Speaker 2: for a boarding. And there's a lot of heming and hoying. 677 00:53:50,940 --> 00:53:54,859 Speaker 2: I'm told sometimes, well, they don't realize how bad it is, 678 00:53:54,980 --> 00:53:59,339 Speaker 2: said neither that eifman thought Jews were sub human, he 679 00:53:59,420 --> 00:54:04,700 Speaker 2: slept at night, took care of his kids. And then 680 00:54:04,739 --> 00:54:08,940 Speaker 2: there's a little discomfort. There Are they mass murderers? Is 681 00:54:08,980 --> 00:54:13,819 Speaker 2: one of the questions I asked them. And then let 682 00:54:13,859 --> 00:54:22,980 Speaker 2: me get to it. Should they be given these sentences 683 00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:29,500 Speaker 2: of death or life imprisonment? And then I tell them why. 684 00:54:29,620 --> 00:54:37,379 Speaker 2: I draw a distinction between murder and abortion. And here 685 00:54:37,420 --> 00:54:39,739 Speaker 2: it gets to the heart of a very important matter. 686 00:54:42,859 --> 00:54:47,299 Speaker 2: From my perspective as a person and as a Jew, 687 00:54:49,380 --> 00:54:54,100 Speaker 2: the moral issue is not what happened to the fetus. 688 00:54:54,900 --> 00:55:00,939 Speaker 2: It's what did we do? Let me explain that to you, 689 00:55:01,859 --> 00:55:05,579 Speaker 2: and God bless her. Marianne Glendon was right on tac 690 00:55:05,660 --> 00:55:10,859 Speaker 2: with this too. I got to read you this it 691 00:55:10,980 --> 00:55:15,339 Speaker 2: was She is a giant. She ends her chapter on 692 00:55:15,420 --> 00:55:23,500 Speaker 2: abortion with this, and she kindly enough mentions in a 693 00:55:23,540 --> 00:55:26,100 Speaker 2: footnote that it was a theologian who told it to her. 694 00:55:27,460 --> 00:55:36,900 Speaker 2: It's about the famous Belgian fictional detective hrcu Plato. Herku 695 00:55:37,020 --> 00:55:44,580 Speaker 2: Plato is thinking over a case and talking about the 696 00:55:45,420 --> 00:55:53,660 Speaker 2: murderer and his assistant Hastings addresses him, but Pluo, you 697 00:55:53,779 --> 00:55:59,339 Speaker 2: haven't even mentioned the victim, to which Pluot replied, my 698 00:55:59,460 --> 00:56:03,620 Speaker 2: dear Hastings, everyone knows what murder does to the victim. 699 00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:07,620 Speaker 2: What I'm interested in is what it does to the murderer. 700 00:56:09,580 --> 00:56:15,860 Speaker 2: That's what I'm interested in. Ladies and gentlemen, I don't 701 00:56:15,900 --> 00:56:20,140 Speaker 2: care that much about vetuses. Be very honest with you. 702 00:56:20,940 --> 00:56:26,020 Speaker 2: They don't know nothing, they don't feel nothing, They have 703 00:56:26,100 --> 00:56:31,100 Speaker 2: no bonds to anybody, They have no self consciousness. Their 704 00:56:31,140 --> 00:56:33,980 Speaker 2: nervous system is so undeveloped and the operation is so 705 00:56:34,140 --> 00:56:41,339 Speaker 2: fast they don't suffer. Nobody's cried about them, nobody knew them. 706 00:56:43,180 --> 00:56:44,779 Speaker 2: Ask a woman who has had. 707 00:56:46,980 --> 00:56:52,180 Speaker 3: A child die five days of age, two days old, 708 00:56:52,819 --> 00:56:58,540 Speaker 3: and ask a woman who has had what's it called, no, no, 709 00:56:58,580 --> 00:56:59,259 Speaker 3: not a still birth. 710 00:56:59,259 --> 00:57:05,140 Speaker 2: That's when it's born miscarriage, which I have in my 711 00:57:05,219 --> 00:57:12,579 Speaker 2: own home experienced. There's no comparison. Any woman who would 712 00:57:12,580 --> 00:57:16,260 Speaker 2: walk around with a miscarriage lamenting that child for years 713 00:57:17,060 --> 00:57:22,459 Speaker 2: is sick. Is sick. I will state to aategorically any 714 00:57:22,620 --> 00:57:30,260 Speaker 2: husband who did is beyond sick need of emergency treatment. 715 00:57:32,660 --> 00:57:35,980 Speaker 2: But they will do it for a two day old child, 716 00:57:36,580 --> 00:57:45,419 Speaker 2: till they die. It's developing life, which has no emotions. 717 00:57:45,500 --> 00:57:48,220 Speaker 2: We have no bonds with it. No one is suffering. 718 00:57:49,820 --> 00:57:53,980 Speaker 2: My concern, and abortion is Poiret's concern in this case, 719 00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:58,740 Speaker 2: What does it do to us to kill millions of 720 00:57:58,900 --> 00:58:02,900 Speaker 2: would be children? Not what did it do to them? 721 00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:06,820 Speaker 2: I don't lose sleep over them, even when I see 722 00:58:06,820 --> 00:58:13,380 Speaker 2: the pictures and they're gross and they're emotionally riveting. What 723 00:58:13,460 --> 00:58:15,540 Speaker 2: does it do to us? What does it say about 724 00:58:15,620 --> 00:58:22,939 Speaker 2: us that we could say, big deal, I forgot the condom, 725 00:58:22,980 --> 00:58:27,060 Speaker 2: which is what the vast majority of abortions are about. 726 00:58:28,220 --> 00:58:32,340 Speaker 2: Not to mention the affluent ones of We're going to Europe. 727 00:58:32,860 --> 00:58:38,660 Speaker 2: That's what I'm worried about. It's not murder. Nobody's murdered 728 00:58:40,060 --> 00:58:43,660 Speaker 2: unless you say it's a full life. If it's a 729 00:58:43,700 --> 00:58:49,220 Speaker 2: full life, that's a theological belief. It's not a logical belief. 730 00:58:50,420 --> 00:58:54,540 Speaker 2: And for theology we have to turn to our own traditions. 731 00:58:55,140 --> 00:58:59,620 Speaker 2: I honor those of Christians who believe that it's not mine. 732 00:58:59,660 --> 00:59:02,340 Speaker 2: And since we both share the same Bible, at least 733 00:59:02,420 --> 00:59:05,459 Speaker 2: in what Christians call the Old Testament, and to us 734 00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:10,060 Speaker 2: is the Hebrew Bible, I will conclude by telling you 735 00:59:10,100 --> 00:59:13,060 Speaker 2: what it says, and you'll make up your own mind 736 00:59:14,380 --> 00:59:19,260 Speaker 2: whether you think that the Bible says that abortion is murder. 737 00:59:20,700 --> 00:59:24,820 Speaker 2: Listed only once in the Bible, Exodus twenty one, verse 738 00:59:24,860 --> 00:59:35,860 Speaker 2: twenty two, and here it is if men are fighting 739 00:59:36,700 --> 00:59:40,620 Speaker 2: and wound a pregnant woman so that her fruit be expelled, 740 00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:46,100 Speaker 2: but no harm befall her, then shall he be fined 741 00:59:46,660 --> 00:59:50,980 Speaker 2: as her husband shall assess, and the matter placed before 742 00:59:50,980 --> 00:59:56,140 Speaker 2: the judges. But if harm before her, then thou shalt 743 00:59:56,140 --> 01:00:01,380 Speaker 2: give life for life. The Torah could not be more 744 01:00:01,500 --> 01:00:06,939 Speaker 2: explicit if it tried, contrasting her death. If men kill 745 01:00:06,980 --> 01:00:12,539 Speaker 2: her with the fetus's death, which men also induced by 746 01:00:12,580 --> 01:00:17,420 Speaker 2: fighting in her vicinity, they have, it's a capital offense. 747 01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:21,939 Speaker 2: If she died, it's a fine determined by what the 748 01:00:22,020 --> 01:00:26,420 Speaker 2: husband thinks it would have been worth, totally pecuniary deal 749 01:00:26,540 --> 01:00:32,419 Speaker 2: as you were. Now, please understand the Jewish tradition has 750 01:00:32,460 --> 01:00:37,300 Speaker 2: a very negative view of abortion, very negative. Only done 751 01:00:37,660 --> 01:00:42,020 Speaker 2: in therapeutic circumstances, et cetera, et cetera. But it is 752 01:00:42,060 --> 01:00:46,580 Speaker 2: in murder. It's never murder. And as the rabbi say, 753 01:00:46,580 --> 01:00:49,220 Speaker 2: in the case of rape, how can we force a 754 01:00:49,300 --> 01:00:56,380 Speaker 2: daughter to Israel to bring forth what was forced down her. There, 755 01:00:56,660 --> 01:01:00,540 Speaker 2: she and she alone is what matters, because it's not 756 01:01:00,580 --> 01:01:04,900 Speaker 2: a whole life. I'm told by Christians, you debate with 757 01:01:05,020 --> 01:01:08,419 Speaker 2: me that it says in Jeremiah, I knew you when 758 01:01:08,420 --> 01:01:12,300 Speaker 2: you were in your mother's womb. Of course God knows 759 01:01:12,340 --> 01:01:18,700 Speaker 2: you at any point, So what does that mean? God 760 01:01:18,780 --> 01:01:21,860 Speaker 2: knew whatever you were. That's why, by God is God? 761 01:01:22,500 --> 01:01:25,340 Speaker 2: No human being ever says that in the Bible I 762 01:01:25,420 --> 01:01:28,939 Speaker 2: knew you were before you were born. You are quite 763 01:01:28,940 --> 01:01:37,660 Speaker 2: a fetus, very cute, cute little fetus there. It is 764 01:01:37,860 --> 01:01:41,780 Speaker 2: very difficult in life not to take an extreme position. 765 01:01:43,860 --> 01:01:46,660 Speaker 2: It is something I'm working on from the next issue 766 01:01:46,660 --> 01:01:50,580 Speaker 2: of my journal. Why do people become extremists? There are 767 01:01:50,620 --> 01:01:52,820 Speaker 2: many reasons, and you know what one of them is. 768 01:01:54,100 --> 01:02:00,580 Speaker 2: It's the most comfortable place to be. It is. It's 769 01:02:00,620 --> 01:02:04,300 Speaker 2: so comfortable to just say it's murder. You don't have 770 01:02:04,380 --> 01:02:10,700 Speaker 2: any tension with incest, with taysacs babies, You have no 771 01:02:10,860 --> 01:02:16,540 Speaker 2: tension with rape, You have no tension with the circumstances 772 01:02:16,580 --> 01:02:20,540 Speaker 2: into which the child will be born. It is so 773 01:02:20,780 --> 01:02:22,780 Speaker 2: easy to say, let a woman do what she wants 774 01:02:22,780 --> 01:02:24,980 Speaker 2: with her own body. It's just the women's thing, the 775 01:02:25,060 --> 01:02:30,020 Speaker 2: hell of the fetus. It's like a decayed too. No tension. 776 01:02:32,500 --> 01:02:36,940 Speaker 2: Extremes have no tension. That's the joy and the appeal 777 01:02:36,980 --> 01:02:41,180 Speaker 2: of it. You're one hundred percent right, one hundred percent 778 01:02:41,220 --> 01:02:46,300 Speaker 2: of the time. There's no other position. For the rest 779 01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:48,820 Speaker 2: of us, who are the majority of human beings who 780 01:02:48,820 --> 01:02:52,220 Speaker 2: think about it, it is a real terrible issue. There 781 01:02:52,260 --> 01:02:56,660 Speaker 2: are competing values here, and I think there's a solution. 782 01:02:57,700 --> 01:03:01,260 Speaker 2: It's been found in Western Europe and along with a 783 01:03:01,300 --> 01:03:04,860 Speaker 2: whole host of other things, in the raising of values 784 01:03:04,900 --> 01:03:08,100 Speaker 2: in a society. I think we could gradually make a 785 01:03:08,140 --> 01:03:11,579 Speaker 2: society where we do not have a million of these 786 01:03:11,620 --> 01:03:15,019 Speaker 2: every year, which every one of us, left to right 787 01:03:15,060 --> 01:03:18,620 Speaker 2: would like to see. Okay, thank you very much. 788 01:03:25,060 --> 01:03:29,380 Speaker 1: This has been timeless wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit Dennisprager 789 01:03:29,420 --> 01:03:32,980 Speaker 1: dot com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses 790 01:03:32,980 --> 01:03:37,660 Speaker 1: in classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.