1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: You call to make a difference in mental health. 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: Columbia International University offers graduate counseling degrees that combine professional 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: excellence with Biblical truth from associates. Through doctoral program, CiU 12 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: prepares you to bring healing and wholeness to others through 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: a biblically based framework of compassion and care. Whether it's 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: their k CREP accredited Masters in Clinical Counseling or their 15 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, You'll learn from experience 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: faculty who integrate faith with real world application to cultivate 17 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: a kingdom in through disciples who counsel, teach, and train. 18 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, CiU's 19 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally and spiritually. 20 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: Visit CiU dot edu. 21 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: To learn more about making a difference in mental health 22 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: through christ centered education. 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: That's CiU dot edu. Hey everyone, welcome to this episode 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 2: of Thinking Christian. 25 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm joined by doctor Ben Matthew. 26 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: Ben is a professor of counseling at counselor Education at 27 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: Columbia International University, and we're going to be doing a 28 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 1: series here on faith and mental health, and we're going 29 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: to start by talking about an article that I actually 30 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: had one of the authors on the show. So you 31 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: can catch that episode if you'd like. I'll link it 32 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: in the show notes. But it's an article that deals 33 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: with what are called deaths of despair, and so these 34 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: authors looked at how various sorts of different deaths of despair, suicide, 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: deaths from alcohol and drugs, those kind of things were 36 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: correlated to the lifting of what are called blue laws, 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: or allowing to have retail on Sundays. And so found 38 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 1: this to be really compelling and wanted to have been 39 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: on to talk a little bit about let's differentiate what 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: it looks like to be in despair versus just to 41 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: be a little sad or have some. 42 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 2: Depression in those kind of things. 43 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: So we're going to start there and then we'll progress 44 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: through the rest of the series talking about various different 45 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: elements of faith and mental health. So Ben, welcome to 46 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: the show again. It's great to have you back. 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love these conversations. Appreciate you having me back. 48 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: James, Absolutely, I'm looking forward to this one. 49 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: I found this article to be really fascinating and I'm 50 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: just sort of wondering if you can give a little 51 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: bit of your take on some of it. 52 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, like you mentioned, is trying to engage from both 53 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 3: sociological and economic values, which I found in itself just 54 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: fascin That's not my area, but man, was it just 55 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: really interesting to kind of see how they were developing 56 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: some of these ideas. How we talked about this earlier, 57 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 3: some of these seemingly innocuous decisions on economics on you know, 58 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 3: store hours have pretty large implications to society and things 59 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 3: like that as well. For me, it was helpful, particularly 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 3: to kind of then think through if there is this 61 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 3: category that they call despair, what that kind of plays itself. 62 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: Out in terms of the trajectory that gets to despair. 63 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: That part is something that I deal with, whether it 64 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: is kind of just the hardships of life and difficulties 65 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 3: of adjustment to circumstances, or whether it gets into more 66 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: of a clinical construct something we often refer to as 67 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 3: major depressive disorder or anxiety disorders. But then there's this 68 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 3: other category that they've bring up in their paper that's 69 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 3: something a little beyond just the individual response. It's kind 70 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: of this existential despair dread that is formed by societal realities, 71 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 3: either disengagement from that or other implication. So I just 72 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 3: it got me thinking in a lot of good ways 73 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 3: that I'm sure it did with you, both the psychological theological. 74 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: I mean, my economics professor would be very happy about 75 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: this too. 76 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: So well, it's fine, yeah, because they do deal with 77 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: and I'm much more sort of I've thought through more 78 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 1: of the sociological dynamics than I have the psychological dynamics, 79 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: and so from a sociological perspective, I sort of look 80 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: at it and say, this is really interesting, because you 81 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: are hearing an awful lot I mean, everything from Bowling Alone, 82 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: which I think was the late nineties or in early 83 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: two thousands book All the way into Now you know 84 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: John Bravaki's work on the Meaning Christ. You hear Jordan 85 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: Peterson talk about this of the varying amounts. You hear 86 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 1: all the crisis with boys. 87 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 2: Young men, you know. 88 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: And so when you're looking at those big broad cultural 89 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: trends and I read an article like this, it's kind 90 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: of like, yeah, all this starts to fit together in 91 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: sort of a loose hodgepodge of oh, yeah, we've got 92 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: cracks here, cracks here, cracks here, and it's all feels 93 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: like it's crumbling apart. And so that that sort of 94 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: social setting I'm envisioning then exacerbates individual psychological problems. 95 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: But how do you see that connection? 96 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was interesting. I think the article that actually 97 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 3: had a figure in one of the later appendices about 98 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: kind of the the downward trend of social connection and 99 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 3: then around like the eighties and nineties you saw this 100 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: other trend line going up regarding things. And I think 101 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 3: the three categories they talked about were like suicidality, liver 102 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 3: disease which is usually because of increased alcohol abuse, and 103 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 3: some other indicators that as you saw less and less 104 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: social engagement, whether it's religious church things like that you 105 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: saw around the eighties and nineties, this trend line of 106 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 3: those other despair indicators going up. Psychology has some interesting 107 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,799 Speaker 3: research that kind of validates some of this as well, 108 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 3: that around the eighties and nineties we started seeing an 109 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: uptick in a lot of what we call mental health disorders, 110 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 3: particularly in the areas of depression and anxiety. This is 111 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 3: then implicated by the increase of mental health services across 112 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: the board, and then when we get into the two thousands, 113 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 3: and then not too long ago at the pandemic, it 114 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: just kind of took off on another spike, right. So 115 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 3: the trend line and for social engagement is continuing to 116 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 3: do this, but we're only seeing more of this kind 117 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 3: of engagement. And it's interesting how that the research is 118 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 3: validating itself, if not sociologically, in light of even like 119 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: we said before, economic decisions. The psychology is continuing to 120 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: highlight these realities. But one of the if I can 121 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 3: say this all respectfully to my discipline, I think one 122 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: of the things that we lack is appreciating some of 123 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 3: those larger systems and how they implicate themselves into the 124 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: struggles of individuals. We tend to then just focus on 125 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 3: the person in the chair across from me, and that's 126 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 3: a good place to start. Yeah, But what I liked 127 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: about this research is it's trying to say, how about 128 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 3: we concentrate on the person in front of us as 129 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: well as the larger systems that may be contributing to 130 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: the hardships of the individual in front of us. It's 131 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 3: not an either or. The article was helpful for me 132 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: to say, it's a both and and I think we 133 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 3: need to appreciate both those elements. 134 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: When you think about an idea despair. So the article 135 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: was deaths of Despair, and it's arguing that these like 136 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: I said, the lifting of these blue laws allowing retail 137 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: on a Sunday then had this correlation to these deaths 138 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: of despair and sort of the running thesis. And again, 139 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: when I talk to one of the authors, you know, 140 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: they're not trying to draw a hard trend line between 141 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: these things. And so some of this is kind of 142 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: interpretive on my part just from what else I've read 143 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: and you know, some of the other things that I see. 144 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: But basically what I took away from it was it 145 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 1: does reinforce or give credibility to this notion that as 146 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: we've lost that social connection, you're going to see individuals 147 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: have a more difficult time dealing with society large. And 148 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: so where my head sort of started to go with 149 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 1: despair and some of these things was into structural evil 150 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: and structural sin. And so I guess I'm wondering number one, 151 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: when you think about it from that sort of psychological perspective, 152 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: despair is but right, and then maybe we have a 153 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 1: brief conversation about structural evil and how some of that 154 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: would play together. 155 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And one way that that's a great question 156 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: that I try to think through. Defining despair is sometimes 157 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: in contrast to things like simple sadness or maybe clinically 158 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 3: even more significant, like major depressive disorder. I think there's 159 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 3: categories that we have for some of these things, and 160 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 3: it's not like this TV dinner that they're all nicely 161 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 3: portioned off. 162 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 163 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like christ, I mean, I think we've all experienced 164 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: the realities of sadness, right, this this pain over loss 165 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 3: of context relationship, and generally speaking, it's temporary, it's situational, 166 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 3: and I think that that's a normal experience of the 167 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 3: human condition, right, if you live in this world long 168 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: enough you felt those realities and most likely will again. 169 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 3: That the time that it kind of takes up a 170 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 3: little bit more for me clinically is when I see 171 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 3: that persistent sadness, sorrow that is not just situational, but 172 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 3: it kind of goes beyond the situation and starts implicating 173 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: itself into life in non helpful ways. Right, So we 174 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: look for a couple of things as clinicians. How long 175 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 3: has this been going on? Right? If this has been 176 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 3: persistent for a couple of weeks, okay, that's going to 177 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 3: be one red flag. Two? Is it starting to affect 178 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 3: other realities of life like your work and your marriage, 179 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 3: or your parenting or your church life. Is it could 180 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 3: be something here in your life, like you know, your 181 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 3: relationship with your spouse, but it's starting to have implications 182 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,719 Speaker 3: and negatively influencing the rest of. 183 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: Your life as well. Yeah, and it's. 184 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: No longer situationally connected. It's now somewhat holistically engaging with 185 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: your life. And so when we start seeing that that 186 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,439 Speaker 3: that kind of bumps it up a little bit more. 187 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: This is more than just some situation that's a normal 188 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 3: human responsive sadness. Now it's negatively affecting your ability to 189 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: live life well, and so that's why. And then we 190 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 3: start looking for that. This this idea of despray despair 191 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 3: bumps it up another level where there seems to be 192 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 3: something about the loss of hope that has now implicated itself. 193 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 3: Now it may start situational, it may start moving beyond 194 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 3: the situation, but more often not. When I work with 195 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 3: people who are dealing with situational sadness or even major 196 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 3: depressive disorder, even with the most depressed, they want to 197 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 3: find hope, They want to find meaning beyond that. They 198 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: know this is not how it should be. You know, 199 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of that that line, you know, 200 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: not the not the way it's supposed to be. The 201 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 3: vandalism of Shalom talks about right. Most of my clients 202 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 3: who are dealing with depression, they know that, they know 203 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: this is not the way it's supposed to be. There 204 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: are some that I work with where they go beyond. 205 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 3: Not only do they say this is not the way 206 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 3: it's supposed to be, but I can't see any hope 207 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 3: beyond it. And now it's taken on like this other level, 208 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: this other existential level of abandonment of hope that has 209 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 3: carried with it over time, to be sure, but to 210 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 3: the degree that it's it's really negatively impacting not just 211 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 3: life and relationships. But why should I even try? Like, 212 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,599 Speaker 3: what's the reason beyond even continuing to do this? That 213 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: sense of despair really is one of the defining for me, 214 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: one of the defining elements that I see in my 215 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 3: clients where this has gone from sadness to this idea 216 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 3: of maybe depression to now despair. When I see that 217 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 3: lack of hope, that that's pretty significant. 218 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: When I see that, it's interesting because when I think 219 00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: of when I was reading through this slat voice came 220 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: to mind. He's a postmodern philosopher. I'm sure if it 221 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: comes to everybody's mind when they do this. He had 222 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: he had a lecture. It's called why we Might Need 223 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: a Better Chicken, I think, is what he calls it. 224 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: He's kind of a strange guy anyway. He talks about 225 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: ideology and he says, part of the problem with ideology 226 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: is that it raises real problems, but the way that 227 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: it addresses those problems is actually a part of the 228 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: problem itself, and so what you end up with essentially 229 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: within ideology from his perspective, is this sort of cyclical problem. 230 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: Anytime you're trying to solve the problem that the identity, 231 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: the ideal ideology identifies in the way that the ideology 232 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: suggests you should solve the problem, the problem never goes 233 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: away and it just exacerbates, And so you have this 234 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: sort of you know, flywheel basically, right, a really bad flywheel, right. 235 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: And I find that fascinating because I think when when 236 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: I was thinking through, okay, what's the space where it's 237 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: this lack of hope because you're essentially on the hamster 238 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: wheel and you're like, I can never get off. This 239 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: is the way life is going to be from here 240 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: on through. And that's just it, you know, it's it's 241 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: a difference between seeing a transition to a phase. 242 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 2: Right, like. 243 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: You know, okay, you know, I'm almost fifty now, Like 244 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: I know my body's gonna hurt for a while, but 245 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: eventually I'll get to that point where you know, nobody 246 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: will have any expectations for me and I can just 247 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: get fat and where a Spiito's is the beach, right, 248 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: Like it's fine, you know. 249 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 4: Like just embrace it, right, this will pass, right, It'll 250 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 4: be okay, you know so, but you have that sort 251 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 4: of transitional concept, right, like this is a even though 252 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 4: it's a. 253 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: More durable sadness or durable depression, it feels like there's 254 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: something on the other side of it, like something will 255 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: switch at some point You're not sure when, but it 256 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: will versus being on the hamster. 257 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 2: Wheel like this is all I have left. I just 258 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: have to run on the wheel. That's what. 259 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: That's what the pictures that kind of came to my 260 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 1: head when I was thinking through despair. 261 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and again I do want to give space 262 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 3: for that, I think, and you know this, there's biblical 263 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 3: language for this, right, I mean, the Psalmists particularly give 264 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 3: us some really helpful means of being honest with that 265 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: not just sadness, but despair. It's sometimes maybe connected to 266 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: my enemies surround me, strong bols ofvation surround me kind 267 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 3: of idea. Yeah there, but there is this like existential 268 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: heartache at the at not just the situation, but where's 269 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 3: God in the midst of this? How do I find 270 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 3: meaning and purpose? But to your point that oftentimes the 271 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 3: Psalmist speaks to himself, right, not just to his situation. 272 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 3: Where does my hope come from? And so there is 273 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 3: at least a spiritual working through it. It needs to 274 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 3: go through it though, Right I just said this to 275 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 3: a client yesterday, Good Friday. We're coming up on Easter 276 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: here soon. We have these terms called Good Friday and 277 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 3: Resurrection Sunday because we have the benefit of looking back, 278 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 3: we know the story as it were. But the disciples 279 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: Good Friday was not good for them, nor did they 280 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: have necessarily the hope of a resurrection Sunday. To be maybe, 281 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 3: in the most kind of clear way, Saturday sucks, right, yeah, 282 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: And in the midst of that, it's actually some of 283 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 3: my Catholic friends who have kind of helped me embrace 284 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: that idea of what Saturday means is this moment in 285 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: between death and hope. But for the Disciples at the moment, 286 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 3: they didn't really have that, so I can understand it. 287 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 3: But to live there constantly the hamster wheel that you 288 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 3: talked about, Yeah, that's an incredibly heavy burden to continue. Hence, 289 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: I mean, not to get too philosophical, the difference between 290 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 3: a Kirker guard and a Nietzschee. Right, yeah, we talked 291 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 3: about some of those existential dreads that come upon right, 292 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: are you willing to take a leap of faith and 293 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 3: trust that there's actually something on the other side, not 294 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 3: necessarily rationally but ontologically, or let's just forget it, like 295 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 3: God is dead, like it's not worth trying because the 296 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 3: futility of it all that those are real struggles. 297 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: Do you think we could say that despair also has 298 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: a notion of abandonment of agency. So when we talk 299 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: about loss of hope, right, there's a way we think 300 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: about that where it's like a mentality, Right, these things 301 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: will pass, I have to grip my way through them, 302 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: but there is something better on the other side, like that. 303 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 2: Sort of sense of hope. 304 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: But then there's also almost like in the way that 305 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: we would think about faith, right, in terms of more 306 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: cognitive belief and then working out an action, hope has 307 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: that similar dynamic where you'd say, no, even if I 308 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 1: don't think things can change, it doesn't mean I'm abandoning 309 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: my entire agency within this situation, Like I'm going to 310 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: make the best of it somehow, and there sort of 311 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: that internal motivation. Do you see that as coupled the despair? 312 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: Am I overreading that? 313 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 3: I think there's something to that the loss of hope, 314 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 3: that that dread that kind of comes upon. Here's the 315 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 3: way that I often hear it with my clients, why 316 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 3: even bother? Like, why should I even try anymore? But 317 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 3: when I hear them talk about themselves in that way, 318 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 3: not just the situation, not just the the existential dread, 319 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 3: They're talking about themselves now in a way that is 320 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 3: essentially implicating that that autonomy, I can't do anything, like 321 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 3: there's no movement, there's no course of action that I 322 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 3: can take that will actually find not just resolution, but 323 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 3: even a path to resolution. 324 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 325 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 3: So when I hear that phrasing why even try? 326 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: What? 327 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: Why am I even doing this? That I think there's 328 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: something too that that definitely play plays into that sense 329 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 3: of there's nothing I can do. I'm no longer an autonomous, 330 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 3: actionable individual in the midst of this pain, and that's 331 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 3: becoming more prevalent as we have a loss of shared meaning, 332 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 3: and this is going to be something we're going to 333 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 3: be getting into more. It's not just my meaning, it's 334 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 3: shared meaning. What does that mean to be part of 335 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 3: something more than myself that not only communicates the meaning 336 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 3: but validates it. Be As we become more and more 337 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 3: isolated onto ourselves, that becomes harder and harder to rationalize. 338 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that goes, you know, to sort of 339 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,200 Speaker 1: pull in at theological point. It goes to structural evil, 340 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: and it goes to you know, sort of social sin. 341 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 2: However, we want to. 342 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: Talk about that, but there is more beyond just individual 343 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: sin that we're dealing with. And I think sometimes when 344 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: we think about structural evil or social sin, you know, 345 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 1: people may have a bad taste in their mouth about 346 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: that just because of the way it's you know, we 347 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: hear about these structuring problems of society and all that 348 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But I don't think we should be 349 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: so fast to dismiss it just because we don't like 350 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: the way some of it's applied. I think these things 351 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: are real. The pressures and tensions are real. The way 352 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: people feel and respond to the pressures of life are 353 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: very different. And no matter how you slice it, some 354 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 1: of us have I don't know whether you'd say, through 355 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: you know, God's grace, through hard work, through you know, 356 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: through a number of these different factors, we built up resilience. 357 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: I can remember, I'll just give this illustration, but I 358 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: can remember at one point Kim and I were going 359 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: to go on a weekend away. And this was when 360 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: we were first married, so we were dead broke. I mean, 361 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: it was like we didn't have any money, and we 362 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: got this bill in the mail. Evidently in Chicago, they 363 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: don't read your meter every month. They sort of guestimate 364 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: it and then they come by and read the meter 365 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: and then and then send you a bill based on 366 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: you know, and if their estimate was low, you're getting 367 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: a big bill. So we got this six hundred dollars 368 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: bill the day before we're going to go on vacation. 369 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 2: Oh man, and we're kind of sitting there like, what 370 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 2: do we do because we don't have we. 371 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: Don't have this right and you know, the vacation, the 372 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 1: money's already spent, like we're we're already ready to go, 373 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: and now you're just adding that six hundred dollars on top. 374 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 2: We're both just like, man, what did we do? 375 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know, we had we 376 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 1: had family resources, we had other people. We could have 377 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: talked to you to figure this whole thing out. I 378 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,479 Speaker 1: was employed. I had a decent enough job, right like, 379 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: so it wasn't like, oh my gosh, we're out on 380 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: the streets. We knew that wouldn't happen, but it was 381 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 1: still this moment where it's like we really don't want 382 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: to ask people, we don't really want to do and 383 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: it's more of like a socially uncomfortable thing we want 384 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: to get base ourselves than it is like a catastrophe going, 385 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,120 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, we're going to go bankrupt. We don't 386 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: have this, you know, the power is going to get 387 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: shut off or what have you. Like, we didn't have that, 388 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 1: but a lot of people do. Yeah, and so you know, 389 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: we like, I think we just have to understand that 390 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: at some point these pressures, no matter what it is, 391 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: these pressures that produce despair sometimes are very real pressures. 392 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, And it goes back to what you said 393 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 3: before too, like sometimes when we recognize the problem and 394 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 3: then we are on this hamster wheel of trying to 395 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: then deal with it, it actually compounds the problem. I 396 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 3: do think your point of what's often referred to this 397 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: individualistic lens and this kind of collectivistic lens. We're a 398 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,640 Speaker 3: little more individualistic in a Western context, right, And it's 399 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 3: not a either or both, you know both and reality 400 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 3: it's it's it's something we need to recognize. Different cultures 401 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 3: have different ways of understanding that. But I do think 402 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 3: we struggle with that in our content because if that 403 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 3: six hundred dollars bill comes, I got to figure out 404 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 3: how to deal with this like that. That's my knee 405 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 3: jerk reaction is I've got to pull myself figure it out. 406 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 3: I've got to answer this dilemma in front of me 407 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 3: rather than thinking okay. And there's something both I think wonderful. 408 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 3: I think it's it's led to some wonderful realities, particularly 409 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 3: in our Western context, that we can applaud and celebrate. 410 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 3: But you're right, I think we do kind of have 411 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 3: this like we don't talk to me about systems, like 412 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 3: we don't want to go there. That's that's Marxist, like 413 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 3: we don't want to get into that area, right, you know, 414 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 3: we throw the big M word around and then it 415 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 3: just like shuts down all conversation. And I think you're 416 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 3: right because while it can be abused, and we do 417 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 3: have enough historical precedence where systems as the answer and 418 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 3: the pin se tell everything becomes the end all be all, 419 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean we'd throw it out right. I grew 420 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 3: up near Toronto and so the last World Series. Sorry 421 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 3: for a sports reference here. When the Blue Jays made 422 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 3: it to the World Series, I remember saying to some 423 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 3: of my friends here down in South Carolina. I think 424 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 3: it was, you know, Game four or five, Hey, we 425 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 3: we won the game. We won the game. And one 426 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 3: of my friends, you know who lovingly uses sarcasm as 427 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 3: their lovelaneguage, they said, what do you mean we won 428 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 3: the game? Like you ain't on the Blue Jays? Brother, Like, 429 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 3: what are you talking about? Ask anyone who follows the 430 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 3: sports team they love not just talking about the team, 431 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 3: They actually identified themselves with the team. There's this communal 432 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: identity that we tend to share in a way that 433 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 3: is understandable. Right, We feel that connection, and that's something 434 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 3: we need to be willing to help press into. I 435 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 3: think it's deeply theological. I have a non Christian friend 436 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,359 Speaker 3: of mine who was really upset at the notion of 437 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 3: the Gospel. So you're telling me, Ben, some dude named Adam, 438 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 3: like thousands of years ago on the other side of 439 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 3: the world, ate some fruit and now I'm messed up. 440 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, actually that's a good summary. It so 441 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 3: angered him, and I understood why, right, he had no 442 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 3: Going back to your other point, he felt he had 443 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 3: no agency, had he had no say in the matter. 444 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 3: And I remember then trying to highlight the atom, to 445 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 3: which I was like, yeah, but wait, there's another guy 446 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 3: that came years later. He took all the pain and 447 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 3: suffering and punishments so we can have life. My friend 448 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 3: actually got angry at that too. He actually said, no, no, no, 449 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 3: I don't want him to work for me. I'll do 450 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 3: it myself. 451 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 452 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 3: So not only was he angry at the first atom 453 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 3: for messing things up, he was actually angry at the 454 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 3: second atom for doing the work that he wanted to 455 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 3: do himself. And it was such an example of his 456 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 3: individualistic constructs. Struggling with what I think is the engineer 457 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 3: Eastern acceptance that there is this system that informs the Gospel, 458 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 3: both the sin and the salvation that comes. On a 459 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 3: clinical level, there is something that I'm trying to help 460 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,880 Speaker 3: my clients understand, helping train my students to help their 461 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 3: clients understand. Yes, you are an individual, but you cannot 462 00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: divorce yourself from this system that you're in, especially when 463 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 3: the system is moving in a direction is continuing to 464 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: isolate self apart from community and the consequences of it. 465 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 3: To our danger. We ignore the system and think, let's 466 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: just deal with the individual, let's just help them. Things 467 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 3: will get better. Spinning wheel man, it's not working. 468 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the other side of it is 469 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: I had this experience with my wife at one point 470 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: we went out to walk in the evening in Chicago, 471 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: and she just made the comment, She's like, this is 472 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 1: nice because whenever I travel, I never get to do this, 473 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: like she doesn't. Whenever she travels by herself, she doesn't 474 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: get to do this. She doesn't get to go out 475 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: and walk around a city at night by herself. 476 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:43,879 Speaker 2: She's just not comfortable doing that. 477 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: Sure, And so you think about how like I embody 478 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: the world differently than she does, and that doesn't bother me. 479 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: But then if you flash forward to this trip we 480 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: took out to Utah and we're doing this canyoneering stuff 481 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: and like my kid to my wife are kind of 482 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: going through these little crevices, and there was one point 483 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,240 Speaker 1: where I seriously thought I was getting stuck. 484 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 3: I just got the image those little crevices. 485 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 2: Oh it's bad. 486 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not a good small space guy anyway, 487 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: but I mean I had scrapes on my chest in 488 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: my back because this an area like I just couldn't fit. 489 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: Through, and I'm like, this is not good. 490 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: I may be stuck, you know, like you can imagine 491 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: like the panic going through and it's like same body, 492 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: different space, completely different experience. And so it's not a 493 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: question of you know, does one way of embodying the 494 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: world is it better than any other? You can clearly 495 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: see in those illustrations, it's like, no, it depends on 496 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 1: the situation that you're in and how this is embodied. 497 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: So there is a point where it feels like people 498 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: who might be in despair, if they could just somehow 499 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: change their situation right like be in a different space 500 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: and physically necessarily but just a different space, that this 501 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: would help them gain a different perspective on life and 502 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: sort of. 503 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 2: Break that to spare up a bit. Whereas when we're. 504 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: Isolated, and maybe this isn't the only mechanism or even 505 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: a mechanism of this, but I think it seems plausible 506 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: that you would say, if you're isolated, you really just 507 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: have yourself. Your capacity runs out at some point and 508 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: then whatever systems you're interacting with, you're just at your limit, 509 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: like you can't go beyond that, and so there's a 510 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: very real sense in which things are never going to change. 511 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 2: Right. It's a really hard sort of moment to come to. 512 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: But you think about what all the people around you 513 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 1: actually do and the degree to which if you're more 514 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: and more socially isolated, you have to rely on your 515 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: own capacity more and more and more and more, and 516 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: sometimes it's just not going to be enough. 517 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 3: No. And again social science is recognizing this. I mean, 518 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 3: most of the theories early on in modern psychology were 519 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 3: very individualistic, you know, to be very stereotypical. The Freudian 520 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: tell me about your mother, like, what was that kind 521 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 3: of particular? Listen, we need to start somewhere right. And yet, 522 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 3: I mean when I talk about this in developmental psychology, 523 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 3: we talked about broffin Feffer's I'm gonna say this incorrectly 524 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 3: braff and Brenner's ecological model of development, and what he 525 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 3: talks about is, yeah, we need to deal with the individual, 526 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 3: but there are these other meso systems, exosystems, there are 527 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 3: these other realities around that need to be understood to 528 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 3: help the individual and recognize the system as well, and 529 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 3: to do to not do that work is a disservice 530 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 3: to our clients to think that if I just work 531 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 3: with you and just your inner thoughts and affections, that 532 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: don't make life. But they're still in the system though, 533 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 3: and if we're not understanding the larger family, church, neighborhood 534 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 3: time frame, like one of them is a chronosystem. And 535 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 3: he talks about how we need to look at different 536 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 3: life stages. Sure, how you and I were with our 537 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 3: wives when we're first married is very different twenty years 538 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 3: later the grown kids that are in high school and college. 539 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 3: We need to recognize those different systems to really bring 540 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 3: help both to the individual and hopefully they even consider 541 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 3: what does it look like for the flourishing of the 542 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 3: cities that we're in, the communities that we're part of 543 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 3: as well. 544 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 2: Well. 545 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: I think it's worth and we'll get into this in 546 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: the next episode too, but I think it's worth just 547 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: saying I wouldn't put the blame on the environment or 548 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: the system necessarily. Yeah, I think again theological perspective, right, 549 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: every broken system is going to have its own unique 550 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: way of deforming us. 551 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Right. 552 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 1: One of my favorite narratives is first Anuel fourteen, because 553 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, the Israelites have asked for a king, and 554 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: Samuel comes back and he's like, Okay, take your king, 555 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: and then he says, but just remember you still have 556 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: to fear the Lord, and if you don't, there's going 557 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 1: to be trouble. It's like, we'll change the structure around, 558 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 1: we'll rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic, but you 559 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: know what, both still. 560 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: Got a float. 561 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: Like at the end of the day, nothing's changed that much. 562 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: You still have to do what exactly what you have 563 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: to do. 564 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: And I think this is sort of the flip side 565 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: of that coin where I would say that despair can 566 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: emerge in any system, and what we're what we're constantly 567 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: trying to do is figure out how to relate to 568 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: I would argue God, one another, and our environment in 569 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: ways that push back that despair. Yeah, that and that 570 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: requires meaning in life. It seems to me. 571 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 3: There needs to be an outside agency, outside truth that 572 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 3: actually can help reform to those systems. And that's often 573 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 3: what I say to my clients. You're not determined by 574 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,479 Speaker 3: your system, but you are affected by your system, right. 575 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: I think past models were very deterministic because your mom 576 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: was like this, because your family was like this. Therefore 577 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: you had to be this way, and I think that's 578 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 3: just just a removes that autonomy, that that human agency 579 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 3: that we talked about earlier. Now we still need people 580 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 3: to show up and be responsible accordingly. Choose you this 581 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 3: day who you will serve, regardless of whatever context is 582 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 3: going around. You have to make a decision. But we 583 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 3: don't want to go to the other extreme and say, well, 584 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 3: your systems don't matter at all. No, they have a 585 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: pressuring right. Do not be conformed by this world. The 586 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 3: world is seeking to pressure and conform us in a 587 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 3: certain mold, and we're naively, dangerously naive to think that 588 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 3: that's not part of our reality as well, and to 589 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 3: recognize both the individual responsibility and systemic constructs that we're in. 590 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: Well, the next we'll kind of close that off. 591 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: I think that's a good place to stop, and we'll 592 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: start the next episode maybe talking a little bit about 593 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: identity and dignity and just getting a little deeper into 594 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: this idea of meaning. We're hitting on it right now, 595 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: but we'll dive a little deeper into it in the 596 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: next episode. So Ben, thanks for being here, everybody, thanks 597 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,719 Speaker 1: for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode 598 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: of Thinking Christian take Care. I just want to take 599 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for 600 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,959 Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If 601 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of 602 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows 603 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.